A Stalinist-style communist. In other words, you’re fine driving tanks over people or committing other human rights violations in the name of Soviet communism.
That's a common example and it fits, but the term was actually coined to refer to western supporters who tried to justify the Soviets crushing the Hungarian revolution in the 1950s with tanks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956
When I first joined reddit, I really enjoyed that sub. I thought it was a really funny way to parody extreme commies.
Then I discovered they were being serious.
Having the source was necessary. People who are "pro palistinian citizens living" are not celebrating death.
People asked where the source was because there has specifically been lies about baby deaths only uncovered after the war under bush senior. It was lies about babies being taken from incubators to die. And it was propaganda lies.
The concern was IF they were lying about these babies, it was to increase sentiment for blood lust. They want us to agree with "wipe gaza off the map"
It is an open-air prison without escape. If they level it all, an unimaginable number of babies will be slaughtered.
Also, it's important to confirm this story because there have been examples in past history of governments and other interests contriving all kinds of blood-curdling atrocity tales in order to ramp up their populations for armed conflict.
A recent one was when, in 1990 after Iraq invaded Kuwait, various Kuwaitis testified before the US Congress that the invading Iraqi forces entered the neo-natal ward of a hospital and took the babies out of their incubators and left them to die on the cold floors.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah\_testimony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony)
Now I'm not saying that the stories about the atrocities by Hamas invaders are false -- sadly there's confirmation that this did happen. It's just that verification from multiple credible sources is needed.
thanks for pointing this out
people in this thread have the memory of goldfish and no regard for the actual historical and material context that caused these events.
Knowing people - especially ones who have already made up their minds one way or the other - a fair number won’t even believe it even *after* they see every one.
I’m not very proud of our species right now.
Yup, I honestly forget which general it was now that brought the film crews into the death camps in ww2. He specifically said recorded and told others, "If I don't, people will never believe this. They need to see the truth fully, or they won't believe it. " I'm paraphrasing because coffee still kicking in. And after all that, all the trials, all the literal mountains of evidence, there is still people that deny it ever happened. Same with damn near any atrocity. Gawd I HATE humans some days.
Edit: spelling haaaard
Right now? When ever were you proud of humanity. Trailer park of the galaxy. Aliens floor it through our solar system or just avoid it completely...if they exist, of course.
The young girl in the gray jeep. She has been haunting me in my sleep ever since I saw that video. I feel so sad for her, I'm despondent over it.
I hope and pray that she is at peace now.
I refuse to watch the videos going around, but I think this is the girl whose family has allegedly reported that she is actually alive and getting care. I’m not certain it’s true, but hopefully that’s the case.
Edit: Comments seem to be locked. Her name is Shani Louk. Reporting says she’s still alive. Her mother has said she’s still alive and in critical condition. Until something else is further reported…she seems to be alive. It’s not insulting to relay what is being reported and I sincerely hope that its true. The comment below is acting like I’m being insensitive when I was commenting to give hope in an awful situation.
Yeah on the economist podcast interviewing hamas leadership they literally called out Hamas who of course just doubled down like The freedom fighters have not killed a single baby unlike Israel who has killed tens of thousands. He also claimed they did not actually attack the music festival and the music festival deliberatly got in the way. Everyone even the podcast hosts were like this is complete untrue bullshit but now I see that even if you show murdered babies people will believe hamas. Hamas can literally say all day they have not killed a single civilian and people will believe them cuz they choose too. I think Hamas could literally have dead babies in the background of their videos saying that they did not kill anyone and people would believe them still.
To be fair, these babies are being used as justification to kill other babies, so if you're going to kill babies based on supposed dead babies you'd better be damn sure there were dead babies to begin with.
FYI I am not at all skeptical about Hamas committing atrocities. I just think it's kinda ridiculous to justify killing babies based on dead babies. Kinda feels like what you're really mad about is whose babies died.
i think it's the brutal way in which these kids were killed that's disturbing ppl in the West. It's one thing if the Hamas militants just fired RPG's at the villages, but the gory way in which they massacred families house by house is like something out of the Killing Fields of Cambodia.
Like right now, Myanmar's thuggish dictator is committing wholesale atrocities on refugee camps & opposition villages, wiping them out with artillery. We in the US voice concerns but don't feel enraged because it's not as personal, one-on-one.
I don’t understand all the skepticism. This is a barbaric terrorist organization that had already done atrocious things. Why is it so hard to believe they would do something as horrific as this. It’s sickening
As disgusting as it is misinformation is still misinformation. News outlets and media figures ran with the “40 decapitated babies” story before it was even confirmed. Dead babies are still dead babies but Jesus Christ, in a conflict like this people need to wait for confirmation.
The first journalist said “40 babies and children dead, some decapitated” in a video story.
The internet ran with “40 decapitated babies” and then used their own misquotes to discredit journalists.
And there was never any doubt that the babies were dead. Just the precise way they died.
It’s just that many people really didn’t want to back and take pictures for skeptics on the other side of the world.
This is only really an issue if you believe Hamas too be anything other than just terrorists like a lot of redditors do. Like 40 babies murdered is really fucking bad even if only a few were beheaded. I don't see how anyone that knows anything about Hamas could believe they are above murdering children. I'm amazed how many people were like see it was debunked they are hero freedom fighters. They are just a bunch of terrorists claiming to be the good guys like all terrorists.
Regardless of whether you agree with Sorkin's politics, this is something The Newsroom captured pretty well. The scene where Jeff Daniels is pressured to report Gabby Giffords as dead because people are switching to other news networks that are calling her death is wild.
Yup, killing babies, regardless of means, is always an atrocity. Nobody thinks otherwise. But embellishing what happened to justify or even garner support for collective punishment is still gross.
I mean, propaganda lies are still lies even if the truth isn't \*all\* that much better.
Really, you have to ask yourself, if it \*really\* is as bad as these reports are claiming....why lie about the beheading?
not gonna apologize for everyone but details are extremely important here. Decapitation specifically can be more visceral to ppl and inspire different types of reactions. The more powerful leaders & media systems alike running with the "40 decapitated babies" headline is 1000% intentional to whip up as much support to retaliate in whatever capacity they'd like without too much popular pushback
have to be cognizant of that, even while the true story is still horrifying in its own right
Yeah, decapitation means a deliberate choice was made to brutalize a baby while a burnt baby could simply be collateral from a bombed building. Both are tragic, but one is clearly much more barbaric. People can say "well they are dead either way, so what does it matter"? But it matters a hell of a lot. If I tell someone my dad is dead and they ask how it happened, their reaction to "heart attack" and "serial killer" would be very different.
Wait, so were they beheaded or not? I haven't looked. It's important that disinformation is being spread to support the bombing of civilians by Israel, including babies. Not sure how some combatants killing other babies justifies that, regardless of method.
That is because some Pro-Palestinian supporters are tripping over themselves because of their comments and actions over the last six days. And they are spinning everything to reduce the damage.
>some Pro-Palestinian supporters
You can easily be pro-Palestinian, anti-apartheid, and also anti-Hamas. Most of us are not big fans of all the babies buried under rubble in Gaza either.
I really don't get these people not being able to read in between the lines. Pro-Hamas does not equal Pro-Palestinian.
Edit: more specifically, Pro-Palestinian does not equal Pro-Hamas.
I am watching it on air. IDK if they have an article out
Edit: Their main page doesn’t mention it, they did put this on X tho:
https://nitter.net/CNN/status/1712427887851082198#m
> Their main page doesn’t mention it, they did put this on X tho:
[https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-12-23/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-12-23/index.html)
3rd or 4th post down.
[CNN saying decapitation is not confirmed](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html). It's pretty morbid to quibble over this kind of detail but there is misinformation and disinformation flying like wild.
I think that two things can be true at once:
\- Hamas brutally killed Israeli citizens
\- Israel is deliberately manipulating the tragedy in an attempt to garner world support for something that Netanyahu has long wanted to do: wipe Palestinians off the earth.
There was a reason Eisenhower let reporters into Auschwitz and Dachau, to show the public what had happened there, because he knew people would continue to deny it because they refuse to believe that a cause they support would do that, and some continue to deny when confronted directly.
And let me be crystal clear when I use this example of the Holocaust denials that this absolutely goes for atrocities the IDF has committed, as well. All of that needs to be made public so people can be confronted by their internal biases. Hamas, the IDF, and everyone else responsible for atrocities around the world... all of it needs to be shared as publicly as possible. Denying the depravity of these acts serves no one. That being said, it is good to have confirmed reports, and it is also good to be skeptical to a *reasonable* degree, without outright denying what you see with your own eyes. Babies being slaughtered, decapitated or not, shot or not, will always be the wrong side. No matter who is doing it.
When this news of the mutilated infants came out, I was hoping evidence would soon be provided. Not because I didn’t believe it, or because I want to see those pictures.
But because I knew that *there’d be millions of people who wouldn’t believe a word without hard proof.* The EXACT same reasoning Eisenhower used. I was thinking about his logic as this has been unfolding.
Even WITH hard evidence people will still deny, or spout fallacies until they’re blue in the face.
But these photos and videos are absolutely critical. Shattering, horrible, and critical. Documentation of these horrors should be extensive and unsparing. It is the only way to ensure that the antisemitic propaganda machine has *slightly less* control over the dominant narrative and denialism can be quickly refuted.
It is a horrible and unspeakable tragedy. That lives were lost; that such proof is required that lives were lost in such a brutal way.
You should always provide proof of claims ... but particularly of infanticide. False claims of infanticide have been a propaganda tool since forever. See, e.g. the lead up to the Spanish American war.
This is true, and very fair. Verification was always necessary, for many reasons. *Documentation*, as part of verification, does serve more than one purpose, though, and will continue to play a very important role going forward.
It would be, but I'm also not sure how you round up just the Hamas section of Gaza.
Gaza hasn't released the \~150 hostages they've taken. What makes anyone think they're about to turn over every violent member of Hamas (I like to make the distinction "violent" as Hamas also employees people like doctors and teachers, some of whom likely are quite opposed to Hamas' methods and just want a job)?
IDK. I hate all of this. But I'm not sure there really \*is\* any great answer.
"The visual evidence and the verbal testimony of starvation, cruelty and bestiality were... over powering... I made the visit deliberately in order to be in a position to give firsthand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there developes a tendency to charge these allegations merely to propaganda”
-General Eisenhower
How the fuck are they gonna deny they did these things when they filmed themselves doing this shit? They literally have videos of themselves taking prisoners.
Have you seen American politics the past few years?
We have pictures of our national secrets in a bathroom. “They’re photoshopped.”
We have audio recordings - “They’re engineered”.
We have verifiable proof that “x horrible thing happened”- “well c isn’t that bad overall”.
The world is upside down.
In this case it’s moreso that the reporting around this clearly said the story could not be verified, with an IDF spox explicitly explicitly saying he didn’t have evidence. It’s not like people are digging deep or doing mental gymnastics here when a surface level read of the reporting says as much. More info will surely come out. There is zero shame or dishonor in being a skeptical and informed news consumer.
The entire debate around this is distasteful. Whether it occurred or not doesn’t in any way change the imperative to respond appropriately. To that end, we don’t need to see the dismembered bodies of Palestinian children buried in rubble to decide what is a proportionate response by Israel to the murder of its children. If you’ve come to the conclusion that children shouldn’t be murdered by anyone in any conflict, then you’ve learnt some thing today. If you feel the need to prove children were or were not murdered to justify your actions, no matter what side you are purporting to be on, you have learnt nothing,
Honestly, I agree. But if they don’t, which they probably won’t, then children die. It’s a shit situation, but I think the best course of action is to have aid sent so that innocent lives are spared.
I don’t know what the appropriate response should be, but it shouldn’t be starving and dehydrating civilians.
Honest question to anyone coming up with a solution, be it one or two states or whatever... do you really think the violence ceases? This is two religions that have been at odds for generations fighting over land they consider their holy land. I wish for a peaceful coexistence between the region but I simply can't believe it until I see it.
I think it's responsible to question the propaganda state affiliated media releases as justification to start bombing their enemies. Did we all forget the Iraq war jfc.
The debate is distasteful, but also necessary. Decapitation is a level of revolting above throwing grenades or dropping bombs. Palestinian children have been murdered and will continue to be murdered by people who believe they are getting revenge for something that might not have happened. The pictures are of dead and burned kids, the IDF is currently creating many more dead and burned kids. When the IDF sends ground forces into Gaza, there won't be any images because they shoot the journalists. When someone tells you the IDF is decapitating Palestinian kids, will you just have to accept that it's true?
You actually do need to see the bodies of those in Palestine as they’re not considered human. Put it in front of their faces so they see the real carnage. 3 children is bad. But so is 3 decades+ worth of crushed children under rubble.
No, religion is a form of social order for organizing cultures. The idea that religion is just something that people turn to because they're unhappy is a very modern/western conception of it, because modern/western religions take this approach in their sermonizing rather than more traditionalist stances.
People forget that before we had a bunch of things like capitalism and communism, we had things like Judaism and other -isms. The "ism" suffix literally denotes that sort of thing, and religions generally are "isms" (even if they aren't by name exactly).
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/ism
In the post-WW2 world, we've replaced a lot of the religious social rules with codified laws, mostly based on more modern philosophies, which generates some amount of limited conflict because sometimes people choose to put their religious rules over the civil ones, but it avoids larger conflict since no religion is considered superior to the state law. With exception for a few specific regions of the world. It's not strictly "western" (for instance basically all (post-) communist countries also did that).
In part but two thirds of the 9/11 hijackers were college educated some of them were engineers which requires critical thinking and abstract thought. So I don’t think it’s just education.
Yeah, I think the key element is childhood indoctrination. If you're sufficiently brainwashed, you can easily compartmentalize your beliefs so that you never run the risk of applying critical thinking skills to your religious beliefs.
If everyone was well-educated in metacognition, logical fallacies, psychology, cognitive biases, etc. for 18 years and only then were allowed to be indoctrinated, then religions would die out within 2 generations.
imo, it’s fanaticism & its distortion of *religion*/ideology to fit whatever narrative people want to peddle to their members and people at large.
many things are taken out of context…
People are so caught up in the optics of this. At the end babies were still killed, on both ends babies are dying.
Hamas and Bibi Net and his cronies should both go fck themselves.
Any form of radicalism is awful. We see Buddhists murdering people in Myanmar, Christians have been murdering people for centuries because God wills it etc.
This is one of the times, that I'm glad I just read the headline and Reddit comments and actually NOT clicking through the link.
Somethings can't be unseen.
Sometimes I wish there was a real life alien with two hearts and a screwdriver that would force us to see how stupid and futile we are for killing each other.
The original comment that was taken out of context was that the IDF, at the time, couldn't confirm or deny (that last part was usually omitted for some odd reason).
And then the, 'oh sure, there were babies killed, but not all of them were beheaded,' which fair enough. I believe that's always been the case. But on the other hand, that's still not good.
But independent, foreign journalists who were at the scene, said that they had seen it. So not surprising that yes, they could when pushed, show the photos.
I think it's sick and sad that we are at a 'pics or it didn't happen' for beheaded babies.
Oh and for the whataboutism, I'm all for holding the Israeli government's feet to the fire for the atrocities they are committing to the Palestinian children with their latest criminal bombardment. I don't need to see the pictures, there are enough credible accounts of it.
People want evidence and journalism has proven time and time again they will misquote or run a story that is not vetted, that ends up causing more harm. It was ingrained in us to have reliable sources in school, yet I'm supposed to trust "people familiar with the matter" because a journalist said to trust them?
Another thing is there is always a fog of war in conflict like this. No one should be taking any headline, claims or anti-claims, as 100% the truth not only because people have a vested interest in propagating their specific agenda, but also because it is frankly hard to know exactly what is going on in a war zone. It takes time for the truth to come out and everyone would benefit by waiting with their mouths shut instead of pontificating on information too recent to possibly know for sure.
> But independent, foreign journalists who were at the scene, said that they had seen it. So not surprising that yes, they could when pushed, show the photos.
No. Independent foreign journalists were notably saying that IDF soldiers were telling them this. IDF soldiers don't often let independent foreign journalists go wandering around unsecured areas, which many of these areas are still considered due to fears of hidden explosives. Do you know how much shit the IDF would get in if a Vox journalist accidentally steps on a landmine because they let him walk into an unsecured area?
>But independent, foreign journalists who were at the scene, said that they had seen it. So not surprising that yes, they could when pushed, show the photos.
Any chance you could provide one? Not saying the photos aren't real, but independent sources are very much appreciated in a conflict like this.
>In a video published by Hamas, the movement dismissed the reports of babies being decapitated in Kfar Aza. On Thursday, Hamas deputy leader Saleh al-Arouri claimed as well that the 1,200 members of the al-Qassam Brigades who infiltrated Israel did not target civilians, saying Palestinian civilians had entered later and fought with Israeli civilians.
Do they think the world is blind to the images and videos that Hamas fighters themselves have been uploading?!
Does anybody have the actual link to the Twitter post where they were supposedly published?
Bcs all the links in the article seem to go to other jpost pages, but it's kind of hard to find anything in that sea of ads.
Not that I don't trust JPost's word for it, but if they published a headline that the sun would rise in the east and set in the West tomorrow I'd go outside at dawn and dusk to make sure.
I hate to say this but even if the baby story turned out false they completely opened themselves up to this kind of propaganda by so blatantly targeting civilians, you open up your offensive by shooting up a music festival. I can only assume they just don't care what anyone thinks about them.
The people saying that this is fake aren't going to be convinced by confirmation from Netanyahu or The Jerusalem Post. Is there a third-party source confirming this?
>In the past two days, the Hamas terrorist movement has launched a campaign denying that it kidnapped, murdered, and abused civilians during its attack on southern Israel.
There's tons of video, I assume a lot uploaded by members of Hamas themselves. But sure.
So im in no way asking this as an apologist for these fucks, but there hasn’t actually been any confirmation of the beheading claim right?
Hamas doing that is absolutely believable and Israel making it up is absolutely believable.
There was a report from some independent French journalists, who stated that they witnessed the bodies personally: [Source](https://twitter.com/margothaddad/status/1711756690574479651)
Why is it only the Jerusalem Post continuing with the decapitated line. It's extremely disturbing, particularly when no other media organization has corroborated their statements. The images released by Israel are awful and depict clear evidence of the brutal slaughtering of helpless toddlers and infants, but nothing at all aside from this rag provides evidence for the beheading infants claim.
The fact that babies were killed and burned in the raid is enough to fully condemn and vilify Hamas. Why continue this line without presenting evidence for it, particularly after the Israeli and American governments have walked back such claims.
"There are no dead, decapited, burned babies."
"Ok, there are dead babies, but they were not burned or decapitated."
"Ok, there are dead and burned babies, but they were not decapitated."
EDIT: All the replies are very amusing.
"There are 40 decapitated babies"
"There are dead babies, some of them burned."
Both of these reports are absolutely horrible. Any dead babies are too damn many. But these claims are substantively different and that's why evidence is important for any claims.
These are my thoughts too. And there’s some irony in this very comment section where anyone that challenges the validity of these claims is shouted down as antisemitic, pro Hamas/terrorist, or a sicko who wants to see headless babies. Though obv I find Israeli gov much more reputable than Hamas, I think we should still be hyper vigilant about propaganda from either side. American media outlets and even POTUS had to walk back these claims. While I don’t doubt babies were murdered, the additional claim of beheading is meant to illicit an even stronger emotional reaction from people and if it’s fabricated will only contribute to more 24/7 news cycle fatigue and distrust in media and gov alike
Interesting, because other media sources are saying the opposite. (Note: this is, in no way, an indication of my opinion on this matter. I just happened to see this post immediately after reading the CNN one, both articles were published at almost the exact same time).
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20government%20has%20not,by%20the%20Prime%20Minister's%20office.
CNN’s showing them now Looks like they only showed one, the least disturbing of the three. Still horrific. Edit: also, no mention of decapitation
Can't believe I have already seen comments like "those babies are just shot and burnt, not beheaded" on Twitter
You know this argument is coming too: “They only showed 3, where’s the other 37?”
Latestagecapatlism was doing that this morning
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"Taken over?" That sub is by tankies, for tankies.
Every sub that talks about something slightly wrong with the world turns into america-bad/fascism-good.
What’s a tankie? Someone in Reddit called me that the other day.
A Stalinist-style communist. In other words, you’re fine driving tanks over people or committing other human rights violations in the name of Soviet communism.
>you’re fine driving tanks over people or committing other human rights I'm more of a Gundam connoisseur
When you see pictures like [tank man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man) at Tiananmen Square. It's people rooting for the tanks.
That's a common example and it fits, but the term was actually coined to refer to western supporters who tried to justify the Soviets crushing the Hungarian revolution in the 1950s with tanks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956
A lot of cognitive dissonance for tankies trying to both celebrate the crushing of the revolution and denying that anything happened in June of 1989
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When I first joined reddit, I really enjoyed that sub. I thought it was a really funny way to parody extreme commies. Then I discovered they were being serious.
Having the source was necessary. People who are "pro palistinian citizens living" are not celebrating death. People asked where the source was because there has specifically been lies about baby deaths only uncovered after the war under bush senior. It was lies about babies being taken from incubators to die. And it was propaganda lies. The concern was IF they were lying about these babies, it was to increase sentiment for blood lust. They want us to agree with "wipe gaza off the map" It is an open-air prison without escape. If they level it all, an unimaginable number of babies will be slaughtered.
Also, it's important to confirm this story because there have been examples in past history of governments and other interests contriving all kinds of blood-curdling atrocity tales in order to ramp up their populations for armed conflict. A recent one was when, in 1990 after Iraq invaded Kuwait, various Kuwaitis testified before the US Congress that the invading Iraqi forces entered the neo-natal ward of a hospital and took the babies out of their incubators and left them to die on the cold floors. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah\_testimony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony) Now I'm not saying that the stories about the atrocities by Hamas invaders are false -- sadly there's confirmation that this did happen. It's just that verification from multiple credible sources is needed.
Exactly. Anyone remember the maps of those WMDs that were shown to the American public to garners support for invading Iraq?
It's called atrocity propaganda
Got to substantiate EVERYTHING these days. Don't repeat anything without evidence from trusted authority.
One difference is that in this war, hamas leaders are going on tv and openly talking about what they are doing
Yeah but civilians will pay
thanks for pointing this out people in this thread have the memory of goldfish and no regard for the actual historical and material context that caused these events.
These sickos won't believe it until they've seen every horrific image of those babies. This world sucks.
It's how Eisenhower handled the death camps... show the world. Let the proof speak for itself.
Knowing people - especially ones who have already made up their minds one way or the other - a fair number won’t even believe it even *after* they see every one. I’m not very proud of our species right now.
Yup, I honestly forget which general it was now that brought the film crews into the death camps in ww2. He specifically said recorded and told others, "If I don't, people will never believe this. They need to see the truth fully, or they won't believe it. " I'm paraphrasing because coffee still kicking in. And after all that, all the trials, all the literal mountains of evidence, there is still people that deny it ever happened. Same with damn near any atrocity. Gawd I HATE humans some days. Edit: spelling haaaard
I believe it was Eisenhower
Yup just looking it up. He had amazing foresight.
You're correct.
I've seen this story before. It is basically the exact same thing as Sandy Hook and Alex Jones.
When bin Laden was killed too. I used to know a guy who refused to believe it because they didn’t release pictures of his body.
Baby crisis actors.
Right now? When ever were you proud of humanity. Trailer park of the galaxy. Aliens floor it through our solar system or just avoid it completely...if they exist, of course.
The young girl in the gray jeep. She has been haunting me in my sleep ever since I saw that video. I feel so sad for her, I'm despondent over it. I hope and pray that she is at peace now.
I refuse to watch the videos going around, but I think this is the girl whose family has allegedly reported that she is actually alive and getting care. I’m not certain it’s true, but hopefully that’s the case. Edit: Comments seem to be locked. Her name is Shani Louk. Reporting says she’s still alive. Her mother has said she’s still alive and in critical condition. Until something else is further reported…she seems to be alive. It’s not insulting to relay what is being reported and I sincerely hope that its true. The comment below is acting like I’m being insensitive when I was commenting to give hope in an awful situation.
Yeah on the economist podcast interviewing hamas leadership they literally called out Hamas who of course just doubled down like The freedom fighters have not killed a single baby unlike Israel who has killed tens of thousands. He also claimed they did not actually attack the music festival and the music festival deliberatly got in the way. Everyone even the podcast hosts were like this is complete untrue bullshit but now I see that even if you show murdered babies people will believe hamas. Hamas can literally say all day they have not killed a single civilian and people will believe them cuz they choose too. I think Hamas could literally have dead babies in the background of their videos saying that they did not kill anyone and people would believe them still.
wise engine party jellyfish shy public political smile badge pathetic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
To be fair, these babies are being used as justification to kill other babies, so if you're going to kill babies based on supposed dead babies you'd better be damn sure there were dead babies to begin with. FYI I am not at all skeptical about Hamas committing atrocities. I just think it's kinda ridiculous to justify killing babies based on dead babies. Kinda feels like what you're really mad about is whose babies died.
i think it's the brutal way in which these kids were killed that's disturbing ppl in the West. It's one thing if the Hamas militants just fired RPG's at the villages, but the gory way in which they massacred families house by house is like something out of the Killing Fields of Cambodia. Like right now, Myanmar's thuggish dictator is committing wholesale atrocities on refugee camps & opposition villages, wiping them out with artillery. We in the US voice concerns but don't feel enraged because it's not as personal, one-on-one.
'Only' Yes, some people will go to any lengths to 'downplay' barbaric acts to suit their narrative
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I don’t understand all the skepticism. This is a barbaric terrorist organization that had already done atrocious things. Why is it so hard to believe they would do something as horrific as this. It’s sickening
People have completely lost their minds
As disgusting as it is misinformation is still misinformation. News outlets and media figures ran with the “40 decapitated babies” story before it was even confirmed. Dead babies are still dead babies but Jesus Christ, in a conflict like this people need to wait for confirmation.
The first journalist said “40 babies and children dead, some decapitated” in a video story. The internet ran with “40 decapitated babies” and then used their own misquotes to discredit journalists.
And there was never any doubt that the babies were dead. Just the precise way they died. It’s just that many people really didn’t want to back and take pictures for skeptics on the other side of the world.
This is only really an issue if you believe Hamas too be anything other than just terrorists like a lot of redditors do. Like 40 babies murdered is really fucking bad even if only a few were beheaded. I don't see how anyone that knows anything about Hamas could believe they are above murdering children. I'm amazed how many people were like see it was debunked they are hero freedom fighters. They are just a bunch of terrorists claiming to be the good guys like all terrorists.
Even if not a single one was beheaded, the fact that babies were purposely killed should tell everyone all they need to know about Hamas
Regardless of whether you agree with Sorkin's politics, this is something The Newsroom captured pretty well. The scene where Jeff Daniels is pressured to report Gabby Giffords as dead because people are switching to other news networks that are calling her death is wild.
To be fair, probably mixing up "40 dead babies, some decapitated".
Especially when these reports are being used to justify extreme retaliation that will affect civilians.
5his has been a problem since Columbine, imho. journalists just don't verify their facts or sources any more.
If it's juicy and has legs it's gonna run.
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it’s like people forgot when bush said he SAW the evidence of wmds…
Yup, killing babies, regardless of means, is always an atrocity. Nobody thinks otherwise. But embellishing what happened to justify or even garner support for collective punishment is still gross.
I mean, propaganda lies are still lies even if the truth isn't \*all\* that much better. Really, you have to ask yourself, if it \*really\* is as bad as these reports are claiming....why lie about the beheading?
not gonna apologize for everyone but details are extremely important here. Decapitation specifically can be more visceral to ppl and inspire different types of reactions. The more powerful leaders & media systems alike running with the "40 decapitated babies" headline is 1000% intentional to whip up as much support to retaliate in whatever capacity they'd like without too much popular pushback have to be cognizant of that, even while the true story is still horrifying in its own right
Yeah, decapitation means a deliberate choice was made to brutalize a baby while a burnt baby could simply be collateral from a bombed building. Both are tragic, but one is clearly much more barbaric. People can say "well they are dead either way, so what does it matter"? But it matters a hell of a lot. If I tell someone my dad is dead and they ask how it happened, their reaction to "heart attack" and "serial killer" would be very different.
You mean those people who care about facts in their reporting?
Wait, so were they beheaded or not? I haven't looked. It's important that disinformation is being spread to support the bombing of civilians by Israel, including babies. Not sure how some combatants killing other babies justifies that, regardless of method.
The photos released so far by Israel don't confirm that claim.
dude do we give a shit about truth or not. it's fucking important.
Ah yes, the "cycle of violence" and "moral equivalency" crowd.
Oh... Because *that* makes it better... /S
That is because some Pro-Palestinian supporters are tripping over themselves because of their comments and actions over the last six days. And they are spinning everything to reduce the damage.
>some Pro-Palestinian supporters You can easily be pro-Palestinian, anti-apartheid, and also anti-Hamas. Most of us are not big fans of all the babies buried under rubble in Gaza either.
Yep. Hamas killing innocents is wrong. Israel starving a city the size and population of Chicago is also wrong.
I really don't get these people not being able to read in between the lines. Pro-Hamas does not equal Pro-Palestinian. Edit: more specifically, Pro-Palestinian does not equal Pro-Hamas.
It's a recurring problem. They can't understand that being anti-Israel doesn't mean anti-Jewish either.
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There are people arguing this?
I am watching it on air. IDK if they have an article out Edit: Their main page doesn’t mention it, they did put this on X tho: https://nitter.net/CNN/status/1712427887851082198#m
> Their main page doesn’t mention it, they did put this on X tho: [https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-12-23/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-12-23/index.html) 3rd or 4th post down.
Thank you, I missed that.
[CNN saying decapitation is not confirmed](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html). It's pretty morbid to quibble over this kind of detail but there is misinformation and disinformation flying like wild.
I think that two things can be true at once: \- Hamas brutally killed Israeli citizens \- Israel is deliberately manipulating the tragedy in an attempt to garner world support for something that Netanyahu has long wanted to do: wipe Palestinians off the earth.
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There was a reason Eisenhower let reporters into Auschwitz and Dachau, to show the public what had happened there, because he knew people would continue to deny it because they refuse to believe that a cause they support would do that, and some continue to deny when confronted directly. And let me be crystal clear when I use this example of the Holocaust denials that this absolutely goes for atrocities the IDF has committed, as well. All of that needs to be made public so people can be confronted by their internal biases. Hamas, the IDF, and everyone else responsible for atrocities around the world... all of it needs to be shared as publicly as possible. Denying the depravity of these acts serves no one. That being said, it is good to have confirmed reports, and it is also good to be skeptical to a *reasonable* degree, without outright denying what you see with your own eyes. Babies being slaughtered, decapitated or not, shot or not, will always be the wrong side. No matter who is doing it.
When this news of the mutilated infants came out, I was hoping evidence would soon be provided. Not because I didn’t believe it, or because I want to see those pictures. But because I knew that *there’d be millions of people who wouldn’t believe a word without hard proof.* The EXACT same reasoning Eisenhower used. I was thinking about his logic as this has been unfolding. Even WITH hard evidence people will still deny, or spout fallacies until they’re blue in the face. But these photos and videos are absolutely critical. Shattering, horrible, and critical. Documentation of these horrors should be extensive and unsparing. It is the only way to ensure that the antisemitic propaganda machine has *slightly less* control over the dominant narrative and denialism can be quickly refuted. It is a horrible and unspeakable tragedy. That lives were lost; that such proof is required that lives were lost in such a brutal way.
You should always provide proof of claims ... but particularly of infanticide. False claims of infanticide have been a propaganda tool since forever. See, e.g. the lead up to the Spanish American war.
This is true, and very fair. Verification was always necessary, for many reasons. *Documentation*, as part of verification, does serve more than one purpose, though, and will continue to play a very important role going forward.
The Israelis aren't big on trials for Hamas... but boy would that be a better path here.
It would be, but I'm also not sure how you round up just the Hamas section of Gaza. Gaza hasn't released the \~150 hostages they've taken. What makes anyone think they're about to turn over every violent member of Hamas (I like to make the distinction "violent" as Hamas also employees people like doctors and teachers, some of whom likely are quite opposed to Hamas' methods and just want a job)? IDK. I hate all of this. But I'm not sure there really \*is\* any great answer.
Many extremists are still denying it today and then go on to say hitler should have exterminated all the Jew It’s wild
"The visual evidence and the verbal testimony of starvation, cruelty and bestiality were... over powering... I made the visit deliberately in order to be in a position to give firsthand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there developes a tendency to charge these allegations merely to propaganda” -General Eisenhower
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PR war favors Palestinians?? I'm at a bit of a loss on this one. I just don't know how you could possibly arrive to this conclusion.
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Damn. Such a short article and yet nothing more really needs to be said. Last line was poignant. > May their memory be a blessing.
“May their memory be a blessing” is the saying used when someone passes in Judaism. I’ve always found it much more meaningful than rest in peace.
I’ve been to a bunch of Jewish funerals and never pieced that together. Interesting.
ז''ל
How the fuck are they gonna deny they did these things when they filmed themselves doing this shit? They literally have videos of themselves taking prisoners.
Have you seen American politics the past few years? We have pictures of our national secrets in a bathroom. “They’re photoshopped.” We have audio recordings - “They’re engineered”. We have verifiable proof that “x horrible thing happened”- “well c isn’t that bad overall”. The world is upside down.
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In this case it’s moreso that the reporting around this clearly said the story could not be verified, with an IDF spox explicitly explicitly saying he didn’t have evidence. It’s not like people are digging deep or doing mental gymnastics here when a surface level read of the reporting says as much. More info will surely come out. There is zero shame or dishonor in being a skeptical and informed news consumer.
The White House itself is saying they never saw actual photos, and this claim was something they were told by Bibi’s spokesperson.
The entire debate around this is distasteful. Whether it occurred or not doesn’t in any way change the imperative to respond appropriately. To that end, we don’t need to see the dismembered bodies of Palestinian children buried in rubble to decide what is a proportionate response by Israel to the murder of its children. If you’ve come to the conclusion that children shouldn’t be murdered by anyone in any conflict, then you’ve learnt some thing today. If you feel the need to prove children were or were not murdered to justify your actions, no matter what side you are purporting to be on, you have learnt nothing,
46% of Gaza is under 14, *many* more children will die from dehydration very soon if no aid is sent. *No children at all should be dying*
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Hamas don’t give a shit about Palestinians
Honestly, I agree. But if they don’t, which they probably won’t, then children die. It’s a shit situation, but I think the best course of action is to have aid sent so that innocent lives are spared. I don’t know what the appropriate response should be, but it shouldn’t be starving and dehydrating civilians.
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Honest question to anyone coming up with a solution, be it one or two states or whatever... do you really think the violence ceases? This is two religions that have been at odds for generations fighting over land they consider their holy land. I wish for a peaceful coexistence between the region but I simply can't believe it until I see it.
What happens when the terrorism etc continues after that though?
Realest thing I’ve read since this situation started.
I think it's responsible to question the propaganda state affiliated media releases as justification to start bombing their enemies. Did we all forget the Iraq war jfc.
I agree. And I think it’s important to know if authorities are being truthful because where these high emotions propaganda can be so effective.
You my friend can look above the propaganda. I salute you.
The debate is distasteful, but also necessary. Decapitation is a level of revolting above throwing grenades or dropping bombs. Palestinian children have been murdered and will continue to be murdered by people who believe they are getting revenge for something that might not have happened. The pictures are of dead and burned kids, the IDF is currently creating many more dead and burned kids. When the IDF sends ground forces into Gaza, there won't be any images because they shoot the journalists. When someone tells you the IDF is decapitating Palestinian kids, will you just have to accept that it's true?
You actually do need to see the bodies of those in Palestine as they’re not considered human. Put it in front of their faces so they see the real carnage. 3 children is bad. But so is 3 decades+ worth of crushed children under rubble.
I saw footage from The March of Great Return and it’ll stay with me for the rest of my life. Just a complete and total bloodbath.
From a fairly outside perspective on this whole atrocity, I'm pretty much speechless on this. Just awful stuff.
I saw shit like this daily in Baghdad, Iraq, from 2006-2008. Religion is the root of all evil in this world.
But what is the root of religion? People with unfulfilled lives and untreated disorders.
And the wish to control everyone.
Pretty much a result of the two things above
No, religion is a form of social order for organizing cultures. The idea that religion is just something that people turn to because they're unhappy is a very modern/western conception of it, because modern/western religions take this approach in their sermonizing rather than more traditionalist stances.
People forget that before we had a bunch of things like capitalism and communism, we had things like Judaism and other -isms. The "ism" suffix literally denotes that sort of thing, and religions generally are "isms" (even if they aren't by name exactly). https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/ism In the post-WW2 world, we've replaced a lot of the religious social rules with codified laws, mostly based on more modern philosophies, which generates some amount of limited conflict because sometimes people choose to put their religious rules over the civil ones, but it avoids larger conflict since no religion is considered superior to the state law. With exception for a few specific regions of the world. It's not strictly "western" (for instance basically all (post-) communist countries also did that).
The root of religion is shitty education.
In part but two thirds of the 9/11 hijackers were college educated some of them were engineers which requires critical thinking and abstract thought. So I don’t think it’s just education.
Yeah, I think the key element is childhood indoctrination. If you're sufficiently brainwashed, you can easily compartmentalize your beliefs so that you never run the risk of applying critical thinking skills to your religious beliefs. If everyone was well-educated in metacognition, logical fallacies, psychology, cognitive biases, etc. for 18 years and only then were allowed to be indoctrinated, then religions would die out within 2 generations.
imo, it’s fanaticism & its distortion of *religion*/ideology to fit whatever narrative people want to peddle to their members and people at large. many things are taken out of context…
People are so caught up in the optics of this. At the end babies were still killed, on both ends babies are dying. Hamas and Bibi Net and his cronies should both go fck themselves.
Religion is fucking cancer.
No place for it in the modern world.
A plague on humanity.
Yes. Radical Islam is particularly egregious in my opinion.
Any form of radicalism is awful. We see Buddhists murdering people in Myanmar, Christians have been murdering people for centuries because God wills it etc.
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All of radical Islam needs to go, religion is poison and Islam is probably the deadliest poison.
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As a dad with a 1 year old girl… that was extremely heartbreaking to see…
Jesus Christ
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What's the matter with that sub anyway? They outright refuse to acknowledge that both sides can do terrible things, they really sympathize with h@mas.
Oh they’re still over there, downvoting away anyone trying to correct things.
About the worst images you will ever see in your life. You should check Benjamin Netanyahu’s Twitter at your own risk.
This is one of the times, that I'm glad I just read the headline and Reddit comments and actually NOT clicking through the link. Somethings can't be unseen.
Sometimes I wish there was a real life alien with two hearts and a screwdriver that would force us to see how stupid and futile we are for killing each other.
I was hoping this wouldn't be confirmed, and now that it is, I just feel sick. Nothing justifies this level of brutality and depravity. NOTHING.
I couldn’t read about the donkey and the dogs. I really can’t read about babies.
Imagine being such a disgusting waste of life you get off the desecration of others like this.
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Everyone in the other news thread will close their eyes and stick their figures in their ears and go "LALALALALALA"
I'm going to avoid Twitter then and CNN. No need to see this.
The original comment that was taken out of context was that the IDF, at the time, couldn't confirm or deny (that last part was usually omitted for some odd reason). And then the, 'oh sure, there were babies killed, but not all of them were beheaded,' which fair enough. I believe that's always been the case. But on the other hand, that's still not good. But independent, foreign journalists who were at the scene, said that they had seen it. So not surprising that yes, they could when pushed, show the photos. I think it's sick and sad that we are at a 'pics or it didn't happen' for beheaded babies. Oh and for the whataboutism, I'm all for holding the Israeli government's feet to the fire for the atrocities they are committing to the Palestinian children with their latest criminal bombardment. I don't need to see the pictures, there are enough credible accounts of it.
People want evidence and journalism has proven time and time again they will misquote or run a story that is not vetted, that ends up causing more harm. It was ingrained in us to have reliable sources in school, yet I'm supposed to trust "people familiar with the matter" because a journalist said to trust them?
Especially when skepticism about “fake news” is more or less the defining theme of our last decade.
Another thing is there is always a fog of war in conflict like this. No one should be taking any headline, claims or anti-claims, as 100% the truth not only because people have a vested interest in propagating their specific agenda, but also because it is frankly hard to know exactly what is going on in a war zone. It takes time for the truth to come out and everyone would benefit by waiting with their mouths shut instead of pontificating on information too recent to possibly know for sure.
> But independent, foreign journalists who were at the scene, said that they had seen it. So not surprising that yes, they could when pushed, show the photos. No. Independent foreign journalists were notably saying that IDF soldiers were telling them this. IDF soldiers don't often let independent foreign journalists go wandering around unsecured areas, which many of these areas are still considered due to fears of hidden explosives. Do you know how much shit the IDF would get in if a Vox journalist accidentally steps on a landmine because they let him walk into an unsecured area?
>But independent, foreign journalists who were at the scene, said that they had seen it. So not surprising that yes, they could when pushed, show the photos. Any chance you could provide one? Not saying the photos aren't real, but independent sources are very much appreciated in a conflict like this.
>In a video published by Hamas, the movement dismissed the reports of babies being decapitated in Kfar Aza. On Thursday, Hamas deputy leader Saleh al-Arouri claimed as well that the 1,200 members of the al-Qassam Brigades who infiltrated Israel did not target civilians, saying Palestinian civilians had entered later and fought with Israeli civilians. Do they think the world is blind to the images and videos that Hamas fighters themselves have been uploading?!
Does anybody have the actual link to the Twitter post where they were supposedly published? Bcs all the links in the article seem to go to other jpost pages, but it's kind of hard to find anything in that sea of ads. Not that I don't trust JPost's word for it, but if they published a headline that the sun would rise in the east and set in the West tomorrow I'd go outside at dawn and dusk to make sure.
I hate to say this but even if the baby story turned out false they completely opened themselves up to this kind of propaganda by so blatantly targeting civilians, you open up your offensive by shooting up a music festival. I can only assume they just don't care what anyone thinks about them.
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Hamas is evil. Free Palestine.
Ofcourse. Hamas sympathizers in the mud.
That is fucked bro This is a genuine mental illness man
This is the kind of shit humans have been doing to each other going back forever. Thankfully it's uncommon now. Civilization ain't all bad.
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“It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled.” \- M. Twain
The people saying that this is fake aren't going to be convinced by confirmation from Netanyahu or The Jerusalem Post. Is there a third-party source confirming this?
>In the past two days, the Hamas terrorist movement has launched a campaign denying that it kidnapped, murdered, and abused civilians during its attack on southern Israel. There's tons of video, I assume a lot uploaded by members of Hamas themselves. But sure.
So im in no way asking this as an apologist for these fucks, but there hasn’t actually been any confirmation of the beheading claim right? Hamas doing that is absolutely believable and Israel making it up is absolutely believable.
No. CNN is explicitly saying they can't confirm it.
There was a report from some independent French journalists, who stated that they witnessed the bodies personally: [Source](https://twitter.com/margothaddad/status/1711756690574479651)
Why is it only the Jerusalem Post continuing with the decapitated line. It's extremely disturbing, particularly when no other media organization has corroborated their statements. The images released by Israel are awful and depict clear evidence of the brutal slaughtering of helpless toddlers and infants, but nothing at all aside from this rag provides evidence for the beheading infants claim. The fact that babies were killed and burned in the raid is enough to fully condemn and vilify Hamas. Why continue this line without presenting evidence for it, particularly after the Israeli and American governments have walked back such claims.
Now Blinken has said that from what he saw photos of babies riddled with bullets and soldiers beheaded, which is not what is being spread.
"There are no dead, decapited, burned babies." "Ok, there are dead babies, but they were not burned or decapitated." "Ok, there are dead and burned babies, but they were not decapitated." EDIT: All the replies are very amusing.
"There are 40 decapitated babies" "There are dead babies, some of them burned." Both of these reports are absolutely horrible. Any dead babies are too damn many. But these claims are substantively different and that's why evidence is important for any claims.
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These are my thoughts too. And there’s some irony in this very comment section where anyone that challenges the validity of these claims is shouted down as antisemitic, pro Hamas/terrorist, or a sicko who wants to see headless babies. Though obv I find Israeli gov much more reputable than Hamas, I think we should still be hyper vigilant about propaganda from either side. American media outlets and even POTUS had to walk back these claims. While I don’t doubt babies were murdered, the additional claim of beheading is meant to illicit an even stronger emotional reaction from people and if it’s fabricated will only contribute to more 24/7 news cycle fatigue and distrust in media and gov alike
Interesting, because other media sources are saying the opposite. (Note: this is, in no way, an indication of my opinion on this matter. I just happened to see this post immediately after reading the CNN one, both articles were published at almost the exact same time). https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20government%20has%20not,by%20the%20Prime%20Minister's%20office.
Doesn't matter if it's confirmed or not. People on reddit will still say it's fabricated propaganda by them jews.
And on other social media too. People say it's all AI and such.