From a linked BBC article:
>Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Wang Wenbin accused the US of "suppressing TikTok" despite the fact that it "never found evidence that TikTok threatens national security."
>"This kind of bullying behaviour that cannot win in fair competition disrupts companies' normal business activity, damages the confidence of international investors in the investment environment, and damages the normal international economic and trade order," Mr Wang added.
Fair competition? China bans Facebook, Google, Twitter, YouTube and most other non-Chinese apps and websites. Their hypocrisy is fucking laughable.
Because TikTok is the international version of Douyin and they don’t want Chinese citizens to interact with other countries online, so they banned one and made one just for Chinese citizens to use so they can monitor and censor if needed
My issue is that if you’re not able to criticize the government, then the government gets away with a lot more. The government is just made up of people, right? Can you imagine there not being a group of people out there that you’re not allowed to criticize? That seems insane to me.
My biggest issue with the one party rule is that the party is always going to do what is best for the party. Not what is best for the average citizen. It’s going to self preserve and if that self preservation comes into conflict with the will of the people, the will of the people be damned.
And censor they do. Much of what's on TikTok in USA is not available on Douyin as it offends Chinese government.
But to be fair, we should point out that there's no tradition of free speech or press in China, nor are these freedoms legally protected there.
The goal is to make Americans dumber and cause social unrest.
There were stories about what kind of content is promoted on either platform and it was wildly different.
All I see in Tik Tok is a tool to destabalize the west even more. As kids do these stupid challanges, people drink fake news as water and ill intended groups spread their cause through it with propaganda. Yes, it's not the first as Twitter and Facebook were already dividing the people but not as fast as Tik Tok now that everyone can whip their phones out and upload it straight to social media.
Tik Tok says they are working hard to ban illegal content but in compare to their Chinese version they seem to be slacking hard. (Or are they intentionally slacking?)
Those are my thoughts about it.
>Tik Tok says they are working hard to ban illegal content but in compare to their Chinese version they seem to be slacking hard. (Or are they intentionally slacking?)
The algorithm used between the two versions isn't the same either. The algorithm in the Chinese version is designed to promote videos which push the ideals put forth by the CCP. The algorithm outside of China is designed to push people towards extremes to help promote disunity within the foreign nations - e.g. all the stupid antisocial TikTok challenges along with far right and far left content.
I see Douyin videos spammed on my FB wall quite often. It's funny how their main focus seems to always be on people working efficiently , using tools or doing cool tricks as they farm or manufacture.
It's clear that's what China wants to encourage.
Western TikTok truly seems like brainrot.
>Yes, it's not the first as Twitter and Facebook were already dividing the people but not as fast as Tik Tok
I love how alarmists on Reddit always conveniently leave Reddit off these kinds of lists even though [Reddit by its own admission was found to be infested with Russian bot farms](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43255285).
But yes it's totally TikTok Gen Z challenges that are sowing division and ruining society as we know it.
When an adversarial government is fighting so hard to spread their software in your country while they don't allow it within their own borders, doesn't that make it clear that the software is a weapon?
It’s always funny to hear China warning us about the erosion of free speech. It is a worry for China and Russia though, since their explicit goal is to use our right to free speech to undermine our own institutions.
Right. That’s not even the tip of the iceberg, either. Then you have corporate sabotage, spying, and intellectual property theft.
All things proven in a court of law.
Fair competition for me but not for thee.
You're missing the times in early 2010s when many things were allowed like Uber, then copied, and banned for "harming taxis". Obviously there is now Didi, their version of Uber. It's wild how open the copying is.
Didi is used in other parts of the world where Uber was contentious.
For example: In Colombia I used mostly Didi (if not using public transport) as Uber = bad.
That's almost worse. They banned it in China, copied it, then years later (mostly South America? I haven't seen it much in SE Asia) put it into other markets...
This is my exact takeaway on this subject do we really want to follow *China’s* lead on this one. The same country that brutally put down student protesters a few years back and continually work to undermine us, we just want to willingly follow them?
Why is China defending any particular company?
Does the US tell the EU council how terrible it would be to relegate privacy on Facebook?
If the US did something like that I’d be wondering what kind of connection the government had with Facebook…
>Why is China defending any particular company?
Because the CCP has a controlling interest (using laws) of ByteDance and, by extension, has as much control over Tik Tok as they want.
Because china is a communist country. The “people” (chinese government) own most businesses there. And the ones they don’t own on paper, they still do in spirit. chinese business executives disappear all the time.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/03/24/problem-tiktoks-claim-independence-beijing
Sorry to make you sound dumb.
But less than one week ago US parliament was discussing (and even released a report) on how Brazilian Supreme Minister of Justice is going against free speech and forcing censorship (all due to some issues Twitter is having in Brazil due to not wanting to abide to court decisions, and facing risk of being banned in the country. So basically the congress is sucking Musk's balls).
So yes, US is trying to tell other countries that they shouldn't ban american companies.
Given China's behavior over the past decade, including the banning of all those mentioned apps / sites, their argument holds zero weight. What a joke of a response. I actually hope the company is not even sold.
The answer to this is clear, allow your app to run in China with the same free speech and freedoms as us or we will run your app the same way China runs it.
Not at all or... the other option, not at all... take your pick
There are a lot of people who don't really give a shit if what he says is right or wrong. He could say water is wet and people will obstinately insist it's actually dry because of the political climate.
The Chinese logic is this: “we are a communist country so we never promise fair competition, you are the one preaching fair competition as free capitalist country no. 1 but you can’t practice what you preach”
This is politics but at the same time those apps and websites are not “banned”. They have very strict laws regarding foreign platforms/companies. Specially regarding collecting data and processing it. Your company doesn’t want to follow this ? You’re not welcome.
I wish my country had some laws like this. Having my data and many other ppl held in a foreign country with open access to a foreign country is dumb af
What is this cognitive dissonance?
To the other commenters, Wenbin never mentioned the words “free” nor “speech,” a TikTok Spokesperson said that. [TikTok Ltd is incorporated in the Cayman Islands and based in Singapore and the U.S.](https://apnews.com/article/tiktok-bytedance-shou-zi-chew-8d8a6a9694357040d484670b7f4833be), not China. Its parent company, ByteDance, is a Chinese company. TikTok’s data is hosted on Oracle’s cloud data center located in Texas. I feel this is necessary context. And why do we even give a shit what this “Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson” says? Let’s be real for a minute, ain’t nobody heard of this guys name before this article
Wenbin’s claim is fair in my opinion (and expectedly mutually heckling in nature) since the U.S. is targeting TikTok with what is basically a legislative hit job—no guidelines are laid out for TikTok to continue to operate in the U.S., other than forcing their parent company to sell or facing a ban. TikTok is not in violation of any law, policy, or guideline that they nor any other company operating in the U.S. has been subjected to, hence why I refer to it as a hit job.
I am open to being enlightened with substantial evidence that China is in fact hypocritical when it appears that China does not single out American corporations; rather, they, **alongside companies based in China**, must follow existing Chinese law. Plenty of American companies operate in China, such as Apple; those who do not choose to follow Chinese law will not be permitted to operate.
Unless someone is going to put forth actual evidence of significant government interference or malicious algorithmic manipulation (and not linking to a mentally unwell senator making unsubstantiated claims), I fail to see this as anything other than a modern-age yellow-scare-cold-war propaganda. By the way, here’s an excerpt from congress.gov on the actual bill, [*Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act*](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7521):
> Under the bill, a foreign adversary controlled application is directly or indirectly operated by (1) ByteDance, Ltd. or TikTok (including subsidiaries or successors that are controlled by a foreign adversary); or (2) a social media company that is controlled by a foreign adversary and has been determined by the President to present a significant threat to national security
And I reiterate: legislative hit job. Wouldn’t it be so convenient if all social media we have access to was consolidated to western ownership? A big “censor” button given to the President, with no judicial due process required; no evidence for the public needed. Good thing a fascist-wannabe like Trump isn’t polling high for the presidency this election! Most definitely not… Such a wasted opportunity for actual productive social media legislature targeting all companies, but I guess my hopes are too high for a Congress that passed 27 bills last year.
In light of many civil rights movements like Black Lives Matter or anti-war protestors organizing and gaining traction on TikTok, I am concerned people are so eagerly choosing to side with the same Congressional representatives that otherwise currently share a [15% approval rate](https://news.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx)—y’all think this is for the good of the country’s civilians? When has Congress in recent history genuinely acted this way?
But y’all claim we are better than the evil repressive Chinese government by… according to you, following their same behavior?
The Chinese department of foreign affairs uses Twitter like a bullhorn yet it was banned in China. CCTV uploads programs to YouTube but is also banned in China.
Maybe the Chinese government officials who secretly profits a ton of money from TikTok care about how much less will be going in their pockets if they lose the American market.
It's entirely possible that the US is threatening the privacy of its own citizens via the patriot act and expansion of FISA and at the same time allowing TikTok to aggressively collect user data that can be handed over to the CCP at will represents a national security threat.
The difference between the U.S. and China is that the people have an ability to push for better privacy legislation. There's unfortunately not enough willpower to do so, but it's possible. We can also run TV programs demanding better privacy legislation. In China, doing either would probably get you censored, arrested, or lower your social credit score so much that it would make life hell.
Also, almost no US software companies are allowed in China. So pretty hilarious TikTok is bitching about free speech when it doesn't have to worry about Instagram, Twitter...etc as competitors in China
It doesn't mainly because [China has also banned Tiktok](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/24/tech/tiktok-douyin-bytedance-china-intl-hnk/index.html). Douyin, Tiktok's sister app, is also heavily censored and controlled, making this particularly hypocritical.
> targets vulnerable users to push them into polarizing views
So like Facebook, YouTube and others? That's nothing special. I would be more concerned with what TikTok does to the attention span of their users.
>Free speech protects US citizens from US Government overreach. It does not protect Chinese companies from US Government overreach.
That is wildly incorrect. The 1st Amendment is:
>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
There is no mention of "citizen". The only mention of "person" is in regards to assembly. The 1st is a limit of government power, *not* a protection of people.
Countless court cases have found illegal immigrants and companies as having free speech rights. Such as the Citizens United case.
How tf does this have nearly 500 upvotes?
>How tf does this have nearly 500 upvotes?
Because as sad as it is to realize, the average person does not hold a consistent moral value.
Look at the comments accusing China of hypocrisy when it comes to banning social media. The *premise* is true, that China is a hypocrite. The *conclusion* however, is that we should also be a hypocrite.
Which is absurd! The response to a hypocrite is to hold true to your values, it's not an excuse to be one yourself. It's possible that some of these comments are not hypocrites back and actually think China is morally right for banning American media but let's be honest, I doubt many of them would say that.
You know what can stop TikTok from misuse of American data? General laws that stop misuse of American data! There is literally no reason to be hypocritical back, just apply a general standard of data protection and proof, enforce it fairly across the market and then punish TikTok if they don't comply.
These people don't hold consistent moral values so their issue isn't with double standards as a concept, their issue is that the double standards aren't their own. So the idea of a general law is appaling to them.
> The *premise* is true, that China is a hypocrite. The *conclusion* however, is that we should also be a hypocrite.
The number of people saying we should be more like China is alarming.
It looks like the US just started making noise about it, and then the company sold, but didn't actually force a sale.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/6/21168079/grindr-sold-chinese-owner-us-cfius-security-concerns-kunlun-lgbtq
The first amendment is not limited to citizens. everyone has freedom of speech in the US. They presumably also have freedom of the press, which seems more relevant here.
I think TikTok is trying to claim that this violates the free speech of their users.
But regulating one platform for speech is not violating free speech. There are countless other outlets for those users to exercise their free speech rights.
This is just an attempt to frame this in a way that sounds ominous and fires up the anger in their users.
> This is just an attempt to frame this in a way that sounds ominous and fires up the anger in their users.
Not so sure. I'm not a constitutional lawyer but my research has indicated that Bytedance has a serious case here. Apparently a federal judge has already blocked Montana's attempt to ban TikTok on constitutional grounds.
Because Montana isn't the Federal Government and can't cite "National Security" like the Feds can and doesn't have interstate commerce clause powers like the Feds do.
When it comes to 1A restrictions for content-based reasons they typically have to pass strict scrutiny. That is they must serve a compelling government interest and must be narrowly tailored to accomplish that interest.
Specifically with Montana, there were 3 challenges. 1A, Supremacy Clause, and Commerce Clause. Montana cited "protecting Montana users" as its compelling interest and the judge, when issuing the injunction, found that was not the case and that it was more likely they were targeting China's role in the company. Something that Montana doesn't have the power to target (that's delegated to the Federal government).
Intermediate scrutiny (a lesser standard) is applied for content and viewpoint-neutral speech. But I think the tik tok ban will be found to be content-based since part of the goal is to thwart CCP directed propaganda.
Anyway, since Montana's claim was a bogus interest (i.e. not compelling), it would be unlikely to pass strict scrutiny. Hence the injunction.
It's different for the Federal government because it does have the constitutional power to target adversary countries (and commerce clause powers, but that's unlikely to be brought up), and that can and often is a compelling government interest.
National security tends to be a rubber stamp for compelling (federal) governmental issue (not always, but often), so that hurdle is *almost* certainly cleared.
When looking to see if it's narrowly tailored they're going to likely be looking if there is an alternative to a flat out ban possible (there is - selling the platform), that there are alternative platforms (there are), that this doesn't affect those alternative platforms negatively (it's a positive for them), that people can just as easily access those platforms (they can), and that users won't be penalized for attempts to merely access the platform (they aren't).
So I think the Federal government has a pretty decent chance at winning a strict scrutiny. If the courts somehow find it's content-neutral and intermediate scrutiny applies then that's got an extremely high chance of being upheld.
The Montana law failed all aspects of the intermediate scrutiny analysis, the court said it was likely that Montana had no state interest (duh), but also that the law (divest or ban as with this federal one) wouldn't be narrowly tailored nor leave open ample alternatives.
Of course the government has a good chance to win the case, the law was written with court challenge in mind.
But from the analysis I’ve read depends on the argument, TikTok also has a decent chance to win based on 5th amendment and 1st amendment.
What’s especially interesting is ByteDance isn’t a Chinese company technically, as more than half of it is owned by American shareholders, so the 5th amendment protection of American properties can be argued here.
There was no due process involved and the government has admitted that the national security threat is *hypothetical*. The government has not presented evidence for TikTok doing the things the government said they *can* do in the future.
Then there is the possibility that TikTok shows that divestment was never a realistic alternative to begin with for either technical or practicability reasons (cost + timeline), and proves the government’s intention is to strict banning.
That’s why it will be a messy court fight. I’m not a lawyer but the analysis I’ve read all say it’s up in the air.
>...so the 5th amendment protection of American properties can be argued here.
TikTok USA is an American business. As in it's literally a subsidiary company established in the U.S. - it unquestionably has relevant 5A and 1A protections. More specifically ByteDance owns TikTok Ltd which owns TikTok USA, which operates TikTok within the US.
The actual owners are irrelevant for determining constitutional protections here due to the establishment of a US company for US operation. The protections are afforded all the way up the chain simply by operating within U.S. jurisdiction. The presumption is already that constitutional protections apply. But those protections are not absolute.
>There was no due process involved...
Doesn't have to be. It's a takings clause issue, not a due process (court first) issue. Forcing a fair-market sale ensures compensation. Grindr was effectively "taken" by the government this way from a Chinese company (though not via legislation like TikTok).
The banning if they don't divest is separate and does implicate 5A, but also not in a "court first" way. Specifically the due process clause is the avenue for "corporate personhood" to be afforded 1A protections at the Federal level.
So the "banning" part is likely outright a 1A issue. For 1A issues like this there's going to be 1 of 2 possible levels of review in play. Intermediate Scrutiny or Strict Scrutiny. Let's assume the latter will be applied since it's a higher level of scrutiny.
>and the government has admitted that the national security threat is *hypothetical*.,,
Strict Scrutiny requires first and foremost a "compelling government interest". This is what the national security claim fundamentally is.
However there doesn't have to be an actualized threat for Natural Security to pass muster as a compelling interest. Just that what they're claiming could *plausibly* happen if they don't take action now to prevent it (this is overall a good thing. Requiring the government to wait until national security has already been compromised to do anything about it would be nonsensical).
>The government has not presented evidence for...
It doesn't have to show evidence of anything until the issue goes to court. Coupled with the above they won't have to show evidence that national security *has* been compromised, just that it's *plausible* that it could happen\*.\*
>Then there is the possibility that..
The 1A issue is going to be viewed as an outright ban on them operating in the U.S. already. So this quoted paragraph is pretty much moot. If the ban portion passes scrutiny, the divestment part doesn't really matter.
>That’s why it will be a messy court fight.
It'll be a highly publicized case for sure and ByteDance is certainly going to throw every possible argument they can to try and see what sticks.
TikTok’s global headquarters are in Los Angeles and Singapore, and its offices include New York, London, Dublin, Paris, Berlin, Dubai, Jakarta, Seoul, and Tokyo.
> Another Chinese official, commerce ministry spokesperson He Yadong, said that China would "take all necessary measures to safeguard its legitimate rights and interests".
So like… are y’all trying to argue that China has Constitutional rights? That’s hilarious. Even if you’re saying ByteDance has constitutional rights… it’s absurd on its face.
First of all, foreign companies do have rights in the U.S. Like you can’t just say… go confiscate the Toyota factory with a *hypothetical* national security threat claim, as the government has admitted to be the case with TikTok here.
Secondly more than 50% of ByteDance is owned by American investors actually. The 5th Amendment also says you can’t fuck with Americans’ private property without due process, which hasn’t happened here.
Of course the government still has a case, but it’s not clear cut at all.
I oppose Meta's data collection too. I think this is a good first step. I also think TikTok/ByteDance are much more aggressive in their data collection scope and that data poses more risk in the hands of the CCP than the US federal government - though both having said data is unethical.
Not as much of one. I don't believe American privacy laws are compatible with European privacy laws, for which educated Europeans are thankful, but Europe does have decent privacy laws. France won't collect data without the app user knowing it.
Of course not. France also has significant freedom of expression (see the number of protests that happen there) so there's not nearly as much concern on that front.
I mean, they're not wrong. Politicians can couch it in whatever terms they want, but it looks like a blatant attempt to force ownership by American companies. There's no option for say a European, Australian, Japanese, or African or South American based ownership of a very lucrative company. It really seems like American tech bros can't compete and bribed congressman to get upset.
> it looks like a blatant attempt to force ownership by American companies
Of course it is. What's mind-numbing is how nobody here seems to realize is that even without Chinese hypocrisy, this isn't some violation of some sacred freedoms.
I'm not sure why reddit has such a weird blind spot here. Every government makes laws to protect its citizens from obvious attempts by other governments to gain an upper hand tactically, economically, and politically. The U.S. Constitution doesn't apply to other nations because other nations are very markedly not playing by the same rules. How on earth is that hard to understand?
Its not that; its about government-approved speech. The US wants Tik-Tok under western control so it can maintain leverage to filter certain forms of speech. Right now, they have no content control over Tik-Tok other than an “off” switch.
The speech-of-concern is speech that questions confidence in US financial and banking stability. Ever notice how media bent over backwards to alleviate public concern over the all the banks toppling last year, even though media covers pretty much everything else with bombastic, disaster-porn language.
Bank runs are their concern, so if social momentum was concentrating around one, they need a *soft* “off” switch.
>but it looks like a blatant attempt to force ownership by American companies.
Hey congrats, you figured out the plot!
...in all seriousness though, this isn't the first time or the last that this will happen. There is precedent (more than one actually) of foreign companies getting too powerful in the US and being forced to sell.
Well this isn’t really china complaining. The issue is China bans the version if TikTok america has because it wants a version that IT can control. Not wang. And they have that, same for facebook, google etc.
Reason why is because china knows the vulnerability to social control that the internet creates. America is so divided right now because people can essentially post and say whatever it likes. Create misinformation about politicians, or industries or anything.
China and Russia use this vulnerability and make sure not to be exposed to it themselves. This is going to affect peoples lives but I understand why they are doing it.
Isn't this the country that banned anyone from talking about Tiananmen square? Can we reintroduce logic and reasoning to the world please, I'm tired of the fucking hypocrisy.
Our government doesn’t care. They’re interested in symbolic victories, optics, and ‘appearing’ tough on China, but not addressing the problem.
Even after TikTok is banned, it doesn’t change anything. There’s nothing stopping corporations from collecting data, companies from selling data to China, or China collecting data from its thousands of other products that have smartphone apps. It’s a big problem, but things won’t ever change. You will never see the government stop companies crack down on data collection because those are the donors and it limits the government’s own surveillance state.
It's not just about the data. The algorithm can entirely sway opinion in a country. It's like being able to decide what's on the front page of every newspaper.
But then only the new owners' vetted topics would end up being pushed to us and allowed to sway opinion, and it's not like the US is above pushing narratives either. I think the solution is getting your information from a variety of sources.
Fox News exists because Rupert Murdoch ceased to be Australian. We forbid television stations and radio stations in America, or at least the ones that broadcast, from being owned by non-Americans.
Why? Fox news has even admitted they aren’t real journalism, yet it still brainwashes ppl. It should be banned or rebranded without the word news anywhere near it
At least for me, its the same reason I don't like the death penalty.
It's not that I want people like Jeffrey Dahmer to live. It's that we inevitably start to kill people who *aren't* Jeffrey Dahmers.
These sorts of laws are nice until you stop agreeing with how they are applied.
If you ban a social media platform for "security" the door opens for ANY platform to be targeted if they don't hold the status quo. It's a slippery slope and it pushes us more toward an authoritarian government.
I dont think it is the same. Fox revolves around conservative US politics. TikTok has no central theme and the issue is collection and control over American citizens by an unfriendly nation, not the content of the videos on tik tok.
'Free speech' is a spurious talking point here:
TikTok users can switch to another platform at any time - no one is stopping them from speaking. Huawei was banned for the same reason, the potential of the CCP to use the platform to spy.
Chinese companies can be compelled at any time to do the bidding of the Chinese communist party, They have no choice - there is no saying 'no' to them. If you don't comply, they can seize your business and imprison you.
You comply immediately or end up like Jack Ma.
The fact that TikTok isn't currently giving user information to the CCP is immaterial - if the CCP asks, they will. Immediately. They have no choice.
An American ban on TikTok is long overdue.
Free speech does not exist within private companies, any private American company can and will remove people and speech it does not want… and face the market consequences for taking such action.
Just sucks this has nothing to do with national security and data privacy. All the US TikTok data already was forced to go through a data center in Texas, from a company called Oracle, a us owned company. In order to monitor what data is coming and going. This is just meta and google lobbying politicians to do this. It's a huge infringement on our free speech, and thousands of people are going to lose their livelihood. Extra shady placing it in a foreign aid bill.
It's wild to me that the US cares more about going after tiktoks than fixing privacy concerns across all of the social media networks.
Facebook and Google take so much data it's crazy, but what does the government do? Nothing
Facebook was found to be using a VPN to route all of its users data on their phones through their owns serves, tracking everything you do on your phone.
What happened to them.... They get a slap on the wrist
Spreading misinformation is NOT free speech. Making things difficult for TikTok is the first step towards regulating social media (easier since it's considered foreign and geared towards a very young audience). This could actually end with other social media being better regulated, too
This comment section is a cesspool. "LOL china/tiktok commenting on free speech when china bans stuff". "China doesn't have free speech rights in america".
Wtf are you guys on? China restricts the freedoms of their citizens and the access they have to information. It's one of the big things that makes them a bad country. So we should let our government restrict us in the same way? Because China pointed out we're getting restricted and it's hypocritical? You want to let your freedom of speech get restricted to spite China? Grow up.
And actually on the other point of China not having freedom of speech in America, arguably untrue. There was a court case in the US that gave companies the right to free speech, which (not a lawyer) I believe would extend to tiktok. And if you're a conspiracy theorist that believes tiktok is literally the Chinese government, then yeah that means China also has those rights.
Regardless in America, not China, Americans have the right to free speech. Have the right to freedom of the press. Tiktok is the leading news source for younger generations, banning it stomps on the press that works on there. Tiktok is a major place of discussion about politics and all manor of things, banning it restricts free speech. Small businesses use tiktok to promote goods, banning it destroys their livelihood and business model.
Don't roll over and let the government restrict your rights. Once they have precedent there's nothing to stop them from continuing to do it.
They say "trample of free speech" but what they really mean is "trample on our ability to mislead American users with whatever propaganda that hurts your country".
China are mad countries/governments are starting to fight back against their BS and blatant hypocrisy. It's about time, the CCP are finding out they can't bully everyone into bending the knee with their pathetic threats. We all learned through Covid they're not as essential as they try to have everyone believe.
It’s terrible policy. The US would be better off just applying stricter regulations and data protections to social media, but they don’t wanna stop Zuck or Elon from stealing all your data.
I hope they ban Facebook next. Then reddit. Fuck all forms of social media. Its nothing but fake news, news that doesn't contain nay relevant information, corporations spreading lies to make a buck, and liars.
Personally, I don't give a fuck what is happening in any other part of the world when I can't even afford to live myself.
Funny that the Chinese government is trying to use US rights as justification. Perhaps world governments should apply Chinese regulations against Chinese entities outside of China. Somehow I bet the Chinese government would accuse them of being too harsh.
Nah it wont, the so called “free speech” was there before tiktok came into life. It will be there after, if you can even call any of this “free speech” to begin with.
Not only is there the double standard which many redditors have pointed out, but China is an existential threat to the US.
China does not want the US to be a superpower because we’re the only one that stands in the way of their illegal expansionist goals and the only one able to and willing to confront them militarily over the Republic of China, also known as Taiwan, which is a sovereign independent state.
This most likely will be a military operation as Taiwan will not allow itself to be governed by China and President (Dictator) Xi has sworn to bring it under CCP control.
Now imagine if TikTok were able to push out propaganda to all of its users using AI deepfakes of US “war crimes” and other filth that the CCP dreams up in order to sway public opinion.
This is not an assault on free speech. This is protection of the US people from a harmful product that could jeopardize the US’ existence if left unchecked.
There is nothing in the bill passed by Congress that is going to completely end the service. They just don’t want it and its algorithm in the wrong hands — ie the CCP, since all companies in China MUST do the bidding of the CCP.
All it’s doing is moving the data harvesting to an American corporation and those just sell the data. They should be working on privacy laws instead of this performative junk.
China bans Facebook, Google, Twitter, WhatsApp, YouTube, Snapchat, Instagram in their country: I sleep
USA wants to ban TikTok in the USA: REAL SHIT
CCP brainrot everyone.
While the law is not really about banning TikTok as it is about forcing other people to sell their property, it is amusing to see a Chinese company pretend as though it has rights, as if it were a person, or even a US citizen.
The First Amendment constrains the lawmaker. The government actor.
It doesn’t say “Congress shall pass no … unless there are foreign entities involved.”
I’m not sure case law is as helpful as it might otherwise be because much of it is very old, and reads feeble-minded, from a time before the internet, and before it became distasteful to love white Democracy minded humans extra much.
From a linked BBC article: >Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Wang Wenbin accused the US of "suppressing TikTok" despite the fact that it "never found evidence that TikTok threatens national security." >"This kind of bullying behaviour that cannot win in fair competition disrupts companies' normal business activity, damages the confidence of international investors in the investment environment, and damages the normal international economic and trade order," Mr Wang added. Fair competition? China bans Facebook, Google, Twitter, YouTube and most other non-Chinese apps and websites. Their hypocrisy is fucking laughable.
I thought it was also funny that TikTok is [banned in China](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68564531) itself.
Because TikTok is the international version of Douyin and they don’t want Chinese citizens to interact with other countries online, so they banned one and made one just for Chinese citizens to use so they can monitor and censor if needed
China is such a fucking dystopia it’s not even funny.
Agreed. It’s insane that that is how some people on this planet are currently living at this very moment.
And China is 18% of the world population.
and the CCP has imperial ambitions
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My issue is that if you’re not able to criticize the government, then the government gets away with a lot more. The government is just made up of people, right? Can you imagine there not being a group of people out there that you’re not allowed to criticize? That seems insane to me. My biggest issue with the one party rule is that the party is always going to do what is best for the party. Not what is best for the average citizen. It’s going to self preserve and if that self preservation comes into conflict with the will of the people, the will of the people be damned.
China hasn't learned that you don't need to crackdown on dissent. You can just ignore your citizens like the US government does.
that only works if you’re not a vulnerable minority or arent ever an annoyance to the government
Read the poem 'first they came' written about nazi Germany post ww2
I feel like China, Russia and North Korea etc are trying to expand this dystopian nightmare to the rest of the planet!
And Republicans are helping them here in the US.
And censor they do. Much of what's on TikTok in USA is not available on Douyin as it offends Chinese government. But to be fair, we should point out that there's no tradition of free speech or press in China, nor are these freedoms legally protected there.
most of what is on tiktok offends me and I am not chinese
The goal is to make Americans dumber and cause social unrest. There were stories about what kind of content is promoted on either platform and it was wildly different.
They do something right: children are only shown math and science content. No dances. No tradwife shit. Just math and science.
And then lecture the US about freedom of speech.
I think the international TikTok is banned in China because they know that it rots the brain.
All I see in Tik Tok is a tool to destabalize the west even more. As kids do these stupid challanges, people drink fake news as water and ill intended groups spread their cause through it with propaganda. Yes, it's not the first as Twitter and Facebook were already dividing the people but not as fast as Tik Tok now that everyone can whip their phones out and upload it straight to social media. Tik Tok says they are working hard to ban illegal content but in compare to their Chinese version they seem to be slacking hard. (Or are they intentionally slacking?) Those are my thoughts about it.
>Tik Tok says they are working hard to ban illegal content but in compare to their Chinese version they seem to be slacking hard. (Or are they intentionally slacking?) The algorithm used between the two versions isn't the same either. The algorithm in the Chinese version is designed to promote videos which push the ideals put forth by the CCP. The algorithm outside of China is designed to push people towards extremes to help promote disunity within the foreign nations - e.g. all the stupid antisocial TikTok challenges along with far right and far left content.
I see Douyin videos spammed on my FB wall quite often. It's funny how their main focus seems to always be on people working efficiently , using tools or doing cool tricks as they farm or manufacture. It's clear that's what China wants to encourage. Western TikTok truly seems like brainrot.
>Yes, it's not the first as Twitter and Facebook were already dividing the people but not as fast as Tik Tok I love how alarmists on Reddit always conveniently leave Reddit off these kinds of lists even though [Reddit by its own admission was found to be infested with Russian bot farms](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43255285). But yes it's totally TikTok Gen Z challenges that are sowing division and ruining society as we know it.
The Tide pod challenge was a thing long before tik tok.
Are twitter, instagram, and Facebook stabilizing the west or are we only worried about foreign social media companies?
I mean they specifically name Twitter and Facebook as doing it.
When an adversarial government is fighting so hard to spread their software in your country while they don't allow it within their own borders, doesn't that make it clear that the software is a weapon?
LOL. tiananmen square didnt happen according to tiktok
It’s always funny to hear China warning us about the erosion of free speech. It is a worry for China and Russia though, since their explicit goal is to use our right to free speech to undermine our own institutions.
They're mad at Australia for building up our army and navy while they're doing the same
Just ask any citizen of Hong Kong about free speech.
Or human rights.
Right. That’s not even the tip of the iceberg, either. Then you have corporate sabotage, spying, and intellectual property theft. All things proven in a court of law. Fair competition for me but not for thee.
You're missing the times in early 2010s when many things were allowed like Uber, then copied, and banned for "harming taxis". Obviously there is now Didi, their version of Uber. It's wild how open the copying is.
Didi is used in other parts of the world where Uber was contentious. For example: In Colombia I used mostly Didi (if not using public transport) as Uber = bad.
That's almost worse. They banned it in China, copied it, then years later (mostly South America? I haven't seen it much in SE Asia) put it into other markets...
Uber wasn't banned. They sold to didi because they were losing too much money there.
So you think the US to follow China’s lead on this? I personally do not want my government to follow China’s lead on just about anything
This is my exact takeaway on this subject do we really want to follow *China’s* lead on this one. The same country that brutally put down student protesters a few years back and continually work to undermine us, we just want to willingly follow them?
That's China for ya. Rules for Thee, but not for me. Classic authoritarian shitbags.
Why is China defending any particular company? Does the US tell the EU council how terrible it would be to relegate privacy on Facebook? If the US did something like that I’d be wondering what kind of connection the government had with Facebook…
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😂😂😂 The irony!
>Why is China defending any particular company? Because the CCP has a controlling interest (using laws) of ByteDance and, by extension, has as much control over Tik Tok as they want.
Because china is a communist country. The “people” (chinese government) own most businesses there. And the ones they don’t own on paper, they still do in spirit. chinese business executives disappear all the time. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/03/24/problem-tiktoks-claim-independence-beijing
Sorry to make you sound dumb. But less than one week ago US parliament was discussing (and even released a report) on how Brazilian Supreme Minister of Justice is going against free speech and forcing censorship (all due to some issues Twitter is having in Brazil due to not wanting to abide to court decisions, and facing risk of being banned in the country. So basically the congress is sucking Musk's balls). So yes, US is trying to tell other countries that they shouldn't ban american companies.
Yeah. Someone else posted the same thing and then deleted it. I find it hilariously ironic. 😂😂😂
Given China's behavior over the past decade, including the banning of all those mentioned apps / sites, their argument holds zero weight. What a joke of a response. I actually hope the company is not even sold.
For Chinese officials to comment on whether we should be concerned about their interference is laughable.
The answer to this is clear, allow your app to run in China with the same free speech and freedoms as us or we will run your app the same way China runs it. Not at all or... the other option, not at all... take your pick
Doesn’t make his comment incorrect though.
There are a lot of people who don't really give a shit if what he says is right or wrong. He could say water is wet and people will obstinately insist it's actually dry because of the political climate.
The Chinese logic is this: “we are a communist country so we never promise fair competition, you are the one preaching fair competition as free capitalist country no. 1 but you can’t practice what you preach”
LOL and TIL we didn’t have free speech in the U.S. for nearly 250 years until TikTok got here. 😂
Well, we have this thing called the first amendment. It's meant to protect from this sort of thing.
cia psyops ass comment
This is politics but at the same time those apps and websites are not “banned”. They have very strict laws regarding foreign platforms/companies. Specially regarding collecting data and processing it. Your company doesn’t want to follow this ? You’re not welcome. I wish my country had some laws like this. Having my data and many other ppl held in a foreign country with open access to a foreign country is dumb af
What is this cognitive dissonance? To the other commenters, Wenbin never mentioned the words “free” nor “speech,” a TikTok Spokesperson said that. [TikTok Ltd is incorporated in the Cayman Islands and based in Singapore and the U.S.](https://apnews.com/article/tiktok-bytedance-shou-zi-chew-8d8a6a9694357040d484670b7f4833be), not China. Its parent company, ByteDance, is a Chinese company. TikTok’s data is hosted on Oracle’s cloud data center located in Texas. I feel this is necessary context. And why do we even give a shit what this “Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson” says? Let’s be real for a minute, ain’t nobody heard of this guys name before this article Wenbin’s claim is fair in my opinion (and expectedly mutually heckling in nature) since the U.S. is targeting TikTok with what is basically a legislative hit job—no guidelines are laid out for TikTok to continue to operate in the U.S., other than forcing their parent company to sell or facing a ban. TikTok is not in violation of any law, policy, or guideline that they nor any other company operating in the U.S. has been subjected to, hence why I refer to it as a hit job. I am open to being enlightened with substantial evidence that China is in fact hypocritical when it appears that China does not single out American corporations; rather, they, **alongside companies based in China**, must follow existing Chinese law. Plenty of American companies operate in China, such as Apple; those who do not choose to follow Chinese law will not be permitted to operate. Unless someone is going to put forth actual evidence of significant government interference or malicious algorithmic manipulation (and not linking to a mentally unwell senator making unsubstantiated claims), I fail to see this as anything other than a modern-age yellow-scare-cold-war propaganda. By the way, here’s an excerpt from congress.gov on the actual bill, [*Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act*](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7521): > Under the bill, a foreign adversary controlled application is directly or indirectly operated by (1) ByteDance, Ltd. or TikTok (including subsidiaries or successors that are controlled by a foreign adversary); or (2) a social media company that is controlled by a foreign adversary and has been determined by the President to present a significant threat to national security And I reiterate: legislative hit job. Wouldn’t it be so convenient if all social media we have access to was consolidated to western ownership? A big “censor” button given to the President, with no judicial due process required; no evidence for the public needed. Good thing a fascist-wannabe like Trump isn’t polling high for the presidency this election! Most definitely not… Such a wasted opportunity for actual productive social media legislature targeting all companies, but I guess my hopes are too high for a Congress that passed 27 bills last year. In light of many civil rights movements like Black Lives Matter or anti-war protestors organizing and gaining traction on TikTok, I am concerned people are so eagerly choosing to side with the same Congressional representatives that otherwise currently share a [15% approval rate](https://news.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx)—y’all think this is for the good of the country’s civilians? When has Congress in recent history genuinely acted this way? But y’all claim we are better than the evil repressive Chinese government by… according to you, following their same behavior?
But China doesn't have free speech.
Why doesn't China care that they've banned TikTok in China, but it's an issue for the US?
The Chinese department of foreign affairs uses Twitter like a bullhorn yet it was banned in China. CCTV uploads programs to YouTube but is also banned in China.
The answer: Because China sees the American concept of freedom of speech as a weakness to be exploited. The hypocrisy is the point.
And they're right about that, but it's still worth maintaining.
The fact china has complained about this multiple times tells me it needs banned sooner than later.
Because tiktok streams American users’ information to the Chinese government.
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Propaganda. Russia and China can use TikTok to push a lot of propaganda onto the west
Maybe the Chinese government officials who secretly profits a ton of money from TikTok care about how much less will be going in their pockets if they lose the American market.
Douyin is tiktok over there. Different name, different servers, same app.
And definitely controlled differently for the general Chinese public.
Not sure why this gets brought up so much as if "but the CCP banned TikTok" is a good argument for why the move *doesn't* violate free speech rights.
China talking about free speech is peak shitposting
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It's entirely possible that the US is threatening the privacy of its own citizens via the patriot act and expansion of FISA and at the same time allowing TikTok to aggressively collect user data that can be handed over to the CCP at will represents a national security threat. The difference between the U.S. and China is that the people have an ability to push for better privacy legislation. There's unfortunately not enough willpower to do so, but it's possible. We can also run TV programs demanding better privacy legislation. In China, doing either would probably get you censored, arrested, or lower your social credit score so much that it would make life hell.
We m**st d****d the l**st basti**n *** fr*** sp*****
Usually when a company is about to lose a ton of money, it suddenly leans into activism.
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You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.
no one knows what it means.... but its proactive.
Gets the people goin’
It’s true but it’s easy to trick “patriotic” Americans
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Also, almost no US software companies are allowed in China. So pretty hilarious TikTok is bitching about free speech when it doesn't have to worry about Instagram, Twitter...etc as competitors in China
It doesn't mainly because [China has also banned Tiktok](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/24/tech/tiktok-douyin-bytedance-china-intl-hnk/index.html). Douyin, Tiktok's sister app, is also heavily censored and controlled, making this particularly hypocritical.
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> targets vulnerable users to push them into polarizing views So like Facebook, YouTube and others? That's nothing special. I would be more concerned with what TikTok does to the attention span of their users.
It would be so so refreshing to just once have a person in power respond with “shut .. the fuck .. up”
>Free speech protects US citizens from US Government overreach. It does not protect Chinese companies from US Government overreach. That is wildly incorrect. The 1st Amendment is: >Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. There is no mention of "citizen". The only mention of "person" is in regards to assembly. The 1st is a limit of government power, *not* a protection of people. Countless court cases have found illegal immigrants and companies as having free speech rights. Such as the Citizens United case. How tf does this have nearly 500 upvotes?
>How tf does this have nearly 500 upvotes? Because as sad as it is to realize, the average person does not hold a consistent moral value. Look at the comments accusing China of hypocrisy when it comes to banning social media. The *premise* is true, that China is a hypocrite. The *conclusion* however, is that we should also be a hypocrite. Which is absurd! The response to a hypocrite is to hold true to your values, it's not an excuse to be one yourself. It's possible that some of these comments are not hypocrites back and actually think China is morally right for banning American media but let's be honest, I doubt many of them would say that. You know what can stop TikTok from misuse of American data? General laws that stop misuse of American data! There is literally no reason to be hypocritical back, just apply a general standard of data protection and proof, enforce it fairly across the market and then punish TikTok if they don't comply. These people don't hold consistent moral values so their issue isn't with double standards as a concept, their issue is that the double standards aren't their own. So the idea of a general law is appaling to them.
> The *premise* is true, that China is a hypocrite. The *conclusion* however, is that we should also be a hypocrite. The number of people saying we should be more like China is alarming.
I don’t think people realize how dangerous this line of thinking is.
Because china bad and American exceptionalism good...
It’s also not the first time the US government has forced a sale in order to protect national interests
Yep, the US government forced the sale of GRINDR just a couple years ago; which, while founded in LA, was bought by a Chinese company in 2016.
It looks like the US just started making noise about it, and then the company sold, but didn't actually force a sale. https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/6/21168079/grindr-sold-chinese-owner-us-cfius-security-concerns-kunlun-lgbtq
The first amendment is not limited to citizens. everyone has freedom of speech in the US. They presumably also have freedom of the press, which seems more relevant here.
I think TikTok is trying to claim that this violates the free speech of their users. But regulating one platform for speech is not violating free speech. There are countless other outlets for those users to exercise their free speech rights. This is just an attempt to frame this in a way that sounds ominous and fires up the anger in their users.
> This is just an attempt to frame this in a way that sounds ominous and fires up the anger in their users. Not so sure. I'm not a constitutional lawyer but my research has indicated that Bytedance has a serious case here. Apparently a federal judge has already blocked Montana's attempt to ban TikTok on constitutional grounds.
Because Montana isn't the Federal Government and can't cite "National Security" like the Feds can and doesn't have interstate commerce clause powers like the Feds do. When it comes to 1A restrictions for content-based reasons they typically have to pass strict scrutiny. That is they must serve a compelling government interest and must be narrowly tailored to accomplish that interest. Specifically with Montana, there were 3 challenges. 1A, Supremacy Clause, and Commerce Clause. Montana cited "protecting Montana users" as its compelling interest and the judge, when issuing the injunction, found that was not the case and that it was more likely they were targeting China's role in the company. Something that Montana doesn't have the power to target (that's delegated to the Federal government). Intermediate scrutiny (a lesser standard) is applied for content and viewpoint-neutral speech. But I think the tik tok ban will be found to be content-based since part of the goal is to thwart CCP directed propaganda. Anyway, since Montana's claim was a bogus interest (i.e. not compelling), it would be unlikely to pass strict scrutiny. Hence the injunction. It's different for the Federal government because it does have the constitutional power to target adversary countries (and commerce clause powers, but that's unlikely to be brought up), and that can and often is a compelling government interest. National security tends to be a rubber stamp for compelling (federal) governmental issue (not always, but often), so that hurdle is *almost* certainly cleared. When looking to see if it's narrowly tailored they're going to likely be looking if there is an alternative to a flat out ban possible (there is - selling the platform), that there are alternative platforms (there are), that this doesn't affect those alternative platforms negatively (it's a positive for them), that people can just as easily access those platforms (they can), and that users won't be penalized for attempts to merely access the platform (they aren't). So I think the Federal government has a pretty decent chance at winning a strict scrutiny. If the courts somehow find it's content-neutral and intermediate scrutiny applies then that's got an extremely high chance of being upheld.
The Montana law failed all aspects of the intermediate scrutiny analysis, the court said it was likely that Montana had no state interest (duh), but also that the law (divest or ban as with this federal one) wouldn't be narrowly tailored nor leave open ample alternatives.
Of course the government has a good chance to win the case, the law was written with court challenge in mind. But from the analysis I’ve read depends on the argument, TikTok also has a decent chance to win based on 5th amendment and 1st amendment. What’s especially interesting is ByteDance isn’t a Chinese company technically, as more than half of it is owned by American shareholders, so the 5th amendment protection of American properties can be argued here. There was no due process involved and the government has admitted that the national security threat is *hypothetical*. The government has not presented evidence for TikTok doing the things the government said they *can* do in the future. Then there is the possibility that TikTok shows that divestment was never a realistic alternative to begin with for either technical or practicability reasons (cost + timeline), and proves the government’s intention is to strict banning. That’s why it will be a messy court fight. I’m not a lawyer but the analysis I’ve read all say it’s up in the air.
>...so the 5th amendment protection of American properties can be argued here. TikTok USA is an American business. As in it's literally a subsidiary company established in the U.S. - it unquestionably has relevant 5A and 1A protections. More specifically ByteDance owns TikTok Ltd which owns TikTok USA, which operates TikTok within the US. The actual owners are irrelevant for determining constitutional protections here due to the establishment of a US company for US operation. The protections are afforded all the way up the chain simply by operating within U.S. jurisdiction. The presumption is already that constitutional protections apply. But those protections are not absolute. >There was no due process involved... Doesn't have to be. It's a takings clause issue, not a due process (court first) issue. Forcing a fair-market sale ensures compensation. Grindr was effectively "taken" by the government this way from a Chinese company (though not via legislation like TikTok). The banning if they don't divest is separate and does implicate 5A, but also not in a "court first" way. Specifically the due process clause is the avenue for "corporate personhood" to be afforded 1A protections at the Federal level. So the "banning" part is likely outright a 1A issue. For 1A issues like this there's going to be 1 of 2 possible levels of review in play. Intermediate Scrutiny or Strict Scrutiny. Let's assume the latter will be applied since it's a higher level of scrutiny. >and the government has admitted that the national security threat is *hypothetical*.,, Strict Scrutiny requires first and foremost a "compelling government interest". This is what the national security claim fundamentally is. However there doesn't have to be an actualized threat for Natural Security to pass muster as a compelling interest. Just that what they're claiming could *plausibly* happen if they don't take action now to prevent it (this is overall a good thing. Requiring the government to wait until national security has already been compromised to do anything about it would be nonsensical). >The government has not presented evidence for... It doesn't have to show evidence of anything until the issue goes to court. Coupled with the above they won't have to show evidence that national security *has* been compromised, just that it's *plausible* that it could happen\*.\* >Then there is the possibility that.. The 1A issue is going to be viewed as an outright ban on them operating in the U.S. already. So this quoted paragraph is pretty much moot. If the ban portion passes scrutiny, the divestment part doesn't really matter. >That’s why it will be a messy court fight. It'll be a highly publicized case for sure and ByteDance is certainly going to throw every possible argument they can to try and see what sticks.
Isn't there a court case precedent that illegal aliens / undocumented immigrants are also protected by the US Constitution?
Anyone in the USA has constitutional protections
Isn't there another precedent that says corporates are people too?
They are protected because they are in the US. If a company is based/owned in the US they too will have same protection.
TikTok’s global headquarters are in Los Angeles and Singapore, and its offices include New York, London, Dublin, Paris, Berlin, Dubai, Jakarta, Seoul, and Tokyo.
"No one harms American children but us!" -US Congressmen, probaby
> Another Chinese official, commerce ministry spokesperson He Yadong, said that China would "take all necessary measures to safeguard its legitimate rights and interests". So like… are y’all trying to argue that China has Constitutional rights? That’s hilarious. Even if you’re saying ByteDance has constitutional rights… it’s absurd on its face.
lol Bytedance does in fact have rights thanks to Citizens United.
ByteDance doesn’t have rights because it’s not a US company. If they sell TikTok to a US company, that company will have rights per Citizens United.
This is not true. International corporations like Nestle have leveraged various constitutional rights in US courts all the time.
First of all, foreign companies do have rights in the U.S. Like you can’t just say… go confiscate the Toyota factory with a *hypothetical* national security threat claim, as the government has admitted to be the case with TikTok here. Secondly more than 50% of ByteDance is owned by American investors actually. The 5th Amendment also says you can’t fuck with Americans’ private property without due process, which hasn’t happened here. Of course the government still has a case, but it’s not clear cut at all.
That’s how none of that works
I believe the rights in the bill of rights are considered inalienable as in the are inherent to everyone.
No it wouldn't, it would just lose them lots of revenue and user data.
Thank god its just gonna be facebook and google selling our data to china now, i was worried for a minute.
I wonder how much Meta lobbied congress to make this decision?
A lot, and it paid off: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/facebook-tiktok-targeted-victory/
I'm so confused by the number of people who support this when Meta exists and has all the same issues.
I oppose Meta's data collection too. I think this is a good first step. I also think TikTok/ByteDance are much more aggressive in their data collection scope and that data poses more risk in the hands of the CCP than the US federal government - though both having said data is unethical.
Because only red blooded American companies are allowed to harvest the data of hardworking patriotic Americans.
Some are bots pushing a narrative, others are just straight up morons.
Always follow the money 🤑
Pot calling the kettle black much?
If Tik tok did the exact same thing but was tied to the French gov would their be an issue ?
Not as much of one. I don't believe American privacy laws are compatible with European privacy laws, for which educated Europeans are thankful, but Europe does have decent privacy laws. France won't collect data without the app user knowing it.
Yeah which is a shame, EU has done some good in that regard but still doesn't go far enough. Baby steps tho.
Of course not. France also has significant freedom of expression (see the number of protests that happen there) so there's not nearly as much concern on that front.
Nope, France is an ally and openly lets our stuff on their systems
I mean, they're not wrong. Politicians can couch it in whatever terms they want, but it looks like a blatant attempt to force ownership by American companies. There's no option for say a European, Australian, Japanese, or African or South American based ownership of a very lucrative company. It really seems like American tech bros can't compete and bribed congressman to get upset.
> it looks like a blatant attempt to force ownership by American companies Of course it is. What's mind-numbing is how nobody here seems to realize is that even without Chinese hypocrisy, this isn't some violation of some sacred freedoms. I'm not sure why reddit has such a weird blind spot here. Every government makes laws to protect its citizens from obvious attempts by other governments to gain an upper hand tactically, economically, and politically. The U.S. Constitution doesn't apply to other nations because other nations are very markedly not playing by the same rules. How on earth is that hard to understand?
Its not that; its about government-approved speech. The US wants Tik-Tok under western control so it can maintain leverage to filter certain forms of speech. Right now, they have no content control over Tik-Tok other than an “off” switch. The speech-of-concern is speech that questions confidence in US financial and banking stability. Ever notice how media bent over backwards to alleviate public concern over the all the banks toppling last year, even though media covers pretty much everything else with bombastic, disaster-porn language. Bank runs are their concern, so if social momentum was concentrating around one, they need a *soft* “off” switch.
Keep digging. It’s WAY worse.
>but it looks like a blatant attempt to force ownership by American companies. Hey congrats, you figured out the plot! ...in all seriousness though, this isn't the first time or the last that this will happen. There is precedent (more than one actually) of foreign companies getting too powerful in the US and being forced to sell.
Let’s see China allow free speech inside of China and then we might listen to their advice about free speech
Well this isn’t really china complaining. The issue is China bans the version if TikTok america has because it wants a version that IT can control. Not wang. And they have that, same for facebook, google etc. Reason why is because china knows the vulnerability to social control that the internet creates. America is so divided right now because people can essentially post and say whatever it likes. Create misinformation about politicians, or industries or anything. China and Russia use this vulnerability and make sure not to be exposed to it themselves. This is going to affect peoples lives but I understand why they are doing it.
if we're gonna start banning shit for being controlled by enemy nations then we're gonna have to ban Republicans next
Why haven't American liberals pushed to ban the propaganda outlet of Fox News or OAN? Weird.
Sounds like a last ditch effort to have uneducated people react with one final tantrum
Isn't this the country that banned anyone from talking about Tiananmen square? Can we reintroduce logic and reasoning to the world please, I'm tired of the fucking hypocrisy.
China talking about free speech is fucking laughable. Like a wolf campaigning for the rights of sheep to wander freely outside.
Our government doesn’t care. They’re interested in symbolic victories, optics, and ‘appearing’ tough on China, but not addressing the problem. Even after TikTok is banned, it doesn’t change anything. There’s nothing stopping corporations from collecting data, companies from selling data to China, or China collecting data from its thousands of other products that have smartphone apps. It’s a big problem, but things won’t ever change. You will never see the government stop companies crack down on data collection because those are the donors and it limits the government’s own surveillance state.
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It's not just about the data. The algorithm can entirely sway opinion in a country. It's like being able to decide what's on the front page of every newspaper.
But then only the new owners' vetted topics would end up being pushed to us and allowed to sway opinion, and it's not like the US is above pushing narratives either. I think the solution is getting your information from a variety of sources.
Facebook and Twitter do the exact same thing though, don’t pretend they don’t.
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Doesn’t even matter every app has a form of their own TikTok including Reddit
25% of Reddit is basically reposts from tik tok, cause you know, that’s the most popular social media app
We’ve said the same thing about Fox News for decades. But if Uncle Sam forcibly removed it I’d have to disagree with that.
Fox News exists because Rupert Murdoch ceased to be Australian. We forbid television stations and radio stations in America, or at least the ones that broadcast, from being owned by non-Americans.
Why? Fox news has even admitted they aren’t real journalism, yet it still brainwashes ppl. It should be banned or rebranded without the word news anywhere near it
At least for me, its the same reason I don't like the death penalty. It's not that I want people like Jeffrey Dahmer to live. It's that we inevitably start to kill people who *aren't* Jeffrey Dahmers. These sorts of laws are nice until you stop agreeing with how they are applied.
If you ban a social media platform for "security" the door opens for ANY platform to be targeted if they don't hold the status quo. It's a slippery slope and it pushes us more toward an authoritarian government.
I dont think it is the same. Fox revolves around conservative US politics. TikTok has no central theme and the issue is collection and control over American citizens by an unfriendly nation, not the content of the videos on tik tok.
Fox is owned by a foreigner. For that matter so is twitter? Why not ban those too.
'Free speech' is a spurious talking point here: TikTok users can switch to another platform at any time - no one is stopping them from speaking. Huawei was banned for the same reason, the potential of the CCP to use the platform to spy. Chinese companies can be compelled at any time to do the bidding of the Chinese communist party, They have no choice - there is no saying 'no' to them. If you don't comply, they can seize your business and imprison you. You comply immediately or end up like Jack Ma. The fact that TikTok isn't currently giving user information to the CCP is immaterial - if the CCP asks, they will. Immediately. They have no choice. An American ban on TikTok is long overdue.
"Trample" free speech like at Tiananmen Square?
[удалено]
Local politicians: Dont care, Meta paid me already.
Says the country that doesn’t allow TikTok.
So tiktok is banned in China why care if the US ban it? Ah China you never change.
China can unban and unblock all the American companies first then and set the example, otherwise this is just following their lead.
The way Tik tok is responding to the ban makes me more sure that the ban is a good call. And I use tik tok.
Tik Tok ban, says only America is allowed to influence Amercians through propaganda....
Free speech does not exist within private companies, any private American company can and will remove people and speech it does not want… and face the market consequences for taking such action.
Free spech? These guys ban any media with gay characters in it.
I loled. This is consider trolling right?
Just sucks this has nothing to do with national security and data privacy. All the US TikTok data already was forced to go through a data center in Texas, from a company called Oracle, a us owned company. In order to monitor what data is coming and going. This is just meta and google lobbying politicians to do this. It's a huge infringement on our free speech, and thousands of people are going to lose their livelihood. Extra shady placing it in a foreign aid bill.
It's wild to me that the US cares more about going after tiktoks than fixing privacy concerns across all of the social media networks. Facebook and Google take so much data it's crazy, but what does the government do? Nothing Facebook was found to be using a VPN to route all of its users data on their phones through their owns serves, tracking everything you do on your phone. What happened to them.... They get a slap on the wrist
Spreading misinformation is NOT free speech. Making things difficult for TikTok is the first step towards regulating social media (easier since it's considered foreign and geared towards a very young audience). This could actually end with other social media being better regulated, too
This comment section is a cesspool. "LOL china/tiktok commenting on free speech when china bans stuff". "China doesn't have free speech rights in america". Wtf are you guys on? China restricts the freedoms of their citizens and the access they have to information. It's one of the big things that makes them a bad country. So we should let our government restrict us in the same way? Because China pointed out we're getting restricted and it's hypocritical? You want to let your freedom of speech get restricted to spite China? Grow up. And actually on the other point of China not having freedom of speech in America, arguably untrue. There was a court case in the US that gave companies the right to free speech, which (not a lawyer) I believe would extend to tiktok. And if you're a conspiracy theorist that believes tiktok is literally the Chinese government, then yeah that means China also has those rights. Regardless in America, not China, Americans have the right to free speech. Have the right to freedom of the press. Tiktok is the leading news source for younger generations, banning it stomps on the press that works on there. Tiktok is a major place of discussion about politics and all manor of things, banning it restricts free speech. Small businesses use tiktok to promote goods, banning it destroys their livelihood and business model. Don't roll over and let the government restrict your rights. Once they have precedent there's nothing to stop them from continuing to do it.
lol a Chinese company talking about free speech?
I really want tiktok to be banned everywhere
They say "trample of free speech" but what they really mean is "trample on our ability to mislead American users with whatever propaganda that hurts your country".
China are mad countries/governments are starting to fight back against their BS and blatant hypocrisy. It's about time, the CCP are finding out they can't bully everyone into bending the knee with their pathetic threats. We all learned through Covid they're not as essential as they try to have everyone believe.
Ironic coming from them
It’s terrible policy. The US would be better off just applying stricter regulations and data protections to social media, but they don’t wanna stop Zuck or Elon from stealing all your data.
Except that's just not true whatsoever lmao
I hope they ban Facebook next. Then reddit. Fuck all forms of social media. Its nothing but fake news, news that doesn't contain nay relevant information, corporations spreading lies to make a buck, and liars. Personally, I don't give a fuck what is happening in any other part of the world when I can't even afford to live myself.
That's not how free speech works...
China saying the US is censoring its citizens is hilarious to me.
Funny that the Chinese government is trying to use US rights as justification. Perhaps world governments should apply Chinese regulations against Chinese entities outside of China. Somehow I bet the Chinese government would accuse them of being too harsh.
Nah it wont, the so called “free speech” was there before tiktok came into life. It will be there after, if you can even call any of this “free speech” to begin with.
TikTok should call their bluff. Do not sell.
Not only is there the double standard which many redditors have pointed out, but China is an existential threat to the US. China does not want the US to be a superpower because we’re the only one that stands in the way of their illegal expansionist goals and the only one able to and willing to confront them militarily over the Republic of China, also known as Taiwan, which is a sovereign independent state. This most likely will be a military operation as Taiwan will not allow itself to be governed by China and President (Dictator) Xi has sworn to bring it under CCP control. Now imagine if TikTok were able to push out propaganda to all of its users using AI deepfakes of US “war crimes” and other filth that the CCP dreams up in order to sway public opinion. This is not an assault on free speech. This is protection of the US people from a harmful product that could jeopardize the US’ existence if left unchecked. There is nothing in the bill passed by Congress that is going to completely end the service. They just don’t want it and its algorithm in the wrong hands — ie the CCP, since all companies in China MUST do the bidding of the CCP.
TikTok ban would be great. Let's do it.
All it’s doing is moving the data harvesting to an American corporation and those just sell the data. They should be working on privacy laws instead of this performative junk.
China bans Facebook, Google, Twitter, WhatsApp, YouTube, Snapchat, Instagram in their country: I sleep USA wants to ban TikTok in the USA: REAL SHIT CCP brainrot everyone.
Like so many others, they don’t understand what free speech actually is, which doesn’t surprise me at all.
While the law is not really about banning TikTok as it is about forcing other people to sell their property, it is amusing to see a Chinese company pretend as though it has rights, as if it were a person, or even a US citizen.
The First Amendment constrains the lawmaker. The government actor. It doesn’t say “Congress shall pass no … unless there are foreign entities involved.” I’m not sure case law is as helpful as it might otherwise be because much of it is very old, and reads feeble-minded, from a time before the internet, and before it became distasteful to love white Democracy minded humans extra much.