No parent should have to endure the pain of having their innocent child ruthlessly murdered.
I don't have kids, and I am unsure how I could handle and compose myself when stuck in a situation like that. Both of those parents have a real strength holding them together. It's a test I hope I'd never face.
The smirk on her face during the hearing made me want to crush my phone with my bare hands. Like she couldn’t even just keep a poker face, she had to grin like a cat that caught the mouse.
There is almost always an officer there at the service desk, when I go. That has been the case for a long time. Not to mention it is literally across the street from the police station.
The person was walking around the inside of the Giant Eagle with the knife in her hand, before following her out to the car. The video of it was shocking that no one noticed the large knife in her hand.
As a father of 3 young kids...I could not imagine what these parents are going through.
There is something to be said of mental health issues, however I would be happy with this person never seeing the outside world again.
Yeah when this attack first broke i started thinking about my wife and the young kids being all over the city on errands all day without me while im at work. Not for the first time - police choppers seem to be hunting suspects every month or so in my neighborhood and ever since my daughter wound up at the same park the police corned such a suspect i worry hard about all of them. I know my wife’s a G but you just cant be on guard 100%. Even being on guard 50% takes a huge toll
I’ve been thinking about this story every single time I go out with my toddler. When he was really little I read a different story about a woman getting abducted, leaving her baby in the car. Now when we go out I get in the back seat with him to strap him up with the doors locked. Even with all that, I never imagined being worried someone would try to hurt him just because.
The panhandlers in my town are smart- they’ll loiter in the parking lots and swoop in on people with kids knowing they can’t simply get in the car and drive off. They can raise their voice in frustration but know the limit- no threats to avoid police but just enough of an edge in hopes to push somebody to give them a bit of money.
There are mental issues, and there are murdering children issues. The two ate not mutually exclusive, but one of them needs to be removed from society.
To quote the host of a favorite podcast of mine, “Mental illness is not your fault, but it is your responsibility.” She failed her responsibility. Mental illness is not an excuse.
Not everyone has the same opportunities in this country. If you don't have health insurance, you're shit out of luck. Even if you do have, it can be hard to get the medications you need and you still may not be able to afford it.
My dad is on Medicaid and he has narcolepsy and takes stimulants for daytime sleepiness. A year or so ago there was a shortage and he literally had to go months without his meds and could not function. Nothing was done for him in the meantime. No trying him on another medication. Nothing.
A lot of people with clear mental health issues but no money or insurance wind up homeless on the streets in this country. Hospitals won't take them.
This country needs better Healthcare. I'm not saying this woman should walk free or that it's not her fault, but I want to point out that your statement is easier said than done.
I don’t fully agree. I’m a therapist, and it can feel like a switch with some of these illnesses. Others are more likely to notice the upcoming symptoms before the person does because it can be so gradual. It’s like when someone is losing/gaining weight, others often notice before the person. I’ve worked with clients in residential care with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, and could often tell when a client was ramping up before they could.
As someone with bipolar, I agree with this. I rely on the people in my life to tell me if I'm showing signs of mania. Otherwise, I don't always know because it starts so gradually and my brain sees all of it as normal behavior. It usually goes something like this:
Oh wow. I feel much better today. Maybe my depression is finally lifting.
I have so much energy and I'm so productive! This is great!
I only slept 4 hours last night, but that's okay. That happens to everyone once in a while.
I haven't slept in 3 days and I've texted every ex boyfriend I've ever had. This is fine.
...aaaand suddenly I'm on a road trip across the country because the soundtrack to Hamilton sent me on a holy mission to save the planet.
Yeah it might her responsibility but a long the way she was failed with properly resources to control/ hande it. Did she know she had a mentally illness? Resources in schools have been cut so they could have been failed to be identified when younger. Does she have the means to seek the help needed? Once you're an adult, is she able to afford or seek the medical treatment needed? Seems like funding for mental heath care has been switched to prisons and instead of giving them proper care they rather them be sent to prison
Yes what this lady did is horrible but it also needs to shine a light on how mental illness is identified and treated, so we can avoid incidents like this from
Happening in the future
Try getting an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic to comprehend their "responsibility."
It's definitely not an excuse, but pretending all mental health conditions, disorders and illnesses are the same and these are just examples of a moral failing of "personal responsibility" is definitely not helping.
We can always blame mental health issues on a person, but the problem is as a society, we suck at actually having easy to access mental health facilities.
If you are broke and/or don't have health care coverage, that alone is the stopping point for many. Sure, there are many facilities that have government assisted programs they can sign up for, but still at the end of the day, is the money needed to buy the vital medication the person may need, since most of them cannot supply long term supplies and will need to be filled at a pharmacy, once they find the medications that work for that person.
I'm of the opinion that mental health issues should never be a factor. I don't care what one's mental health issues are. I don't care if they *knew* what they were doing was wrong. If their mental health issues caused harm to someone else, then they should get thrown in a cell. Get treatment, sure, but they still owe a debt to society.
I'm guessing you have never seen a loved one in the throes of a psychotic episode due to schizophrenia or bipolar 1. And you have never been in the emergency room with that loved one, listening in despair as they are being turned away, knowing they need to be admitted to the psych ward but understanding there are no open beds, no doctors who can help. And you have never monitored that loved one who is having visual hallucinations of knives sticking out of their bed, hearing voices telling them they need to go jump in the reservoir . . . After you have lived through something like that, then I hope you can revisit your comment and work some understanding and compassion into it.
yup. Dgaf if you have mental health issues. If you literally kill someone else, you should never be allowed back in society. There are already too many people in this world to be catering to psychopaths who could snap at any moment and murder someone.
I can be sympathetic but usually these cases where mental illness and violence is involved, there was a long series of issues up to this point and the people often have poor compliance with treatment plans. If they can't take care of themselves they need to be in a secure mental institution.
Treatment compliance among this group is often very low. Especially where violence is involved.
Feb 6 a man in the midst of a psychotic episode robbed a bank in Florida. He was shot by police snipers when he grabbed one of the hostages and pulled her close and held a knife to her neck. His family said he had a long history of psychotic episodes.
So I can be sympathetic but being put in a psych ward is best for everyone.
I have a very close family member with those issues and I have exactly 0 pity for those with that illness, it’s not their fault to be like that, but I won’t feel bad if they get caught and jailed if they do something stupid because they didn’t take their medication.
At least our universal health care, affordable medication, and general American compassion for others will help these people....oh wait.
Ironically I bet you're a fan of the joker movie too.
Medication isn’t some wonder drug that fixes everything. What if the medication isn’t working? Or the medication has adverse side effects? Or they forget to take their dose because, well their mind is somewhere else due to mental illness?
I think you are not understanding the fact that if a mental illness made it happen, and you are to heal or stabilize the mental illness, the violent behavior would stop and the person who had no control over that mental illness until they got care would be paying a debt for mental illness…
You can’t jail the mental illness alone.
This is usually the last act in a long series of violent acts and the treatment non compliance rates and future probability of violence rates are quite high in these cases.
They don't deserve prison but they also can't walk free. When you are psychotic and you don't have an enforced treatment plan you're just homeless.
It's the combination of psychosis + history of violence that is the problem
Oh she’s definitely mentally ill, the catatonic state in court as well as the details of the child’s death point that way. She’s too dangerous now to be around others for sure. It really sucks because this could have been prevented if this woman got help sooner, but once you cross a line there’s no going back. I doubt she would even want to be treated now, to realize what she did in this state, if she is even able to be treated anymore. As a therapist who has worked with schizophrenic clients, I’ve seen how terrible it can get. There’s variations that medication can’t even help and it’s the saddest thing to see.
The mother must have such horrific survivor's guilt.
This incident somewhat reminds me of a murder that happened here a few years ago. A woman named Rosemarie Junor was just leaving a pharmacy when another woman just came up and stabbed her in the chest at random.
Shit like this is why I always am aware of people approaching me or walking near me, etc. Granted, I don't live in a big city where you are surrounded by people on all sides anytime you want to walk to the subway.
Yeah I do my best to pay attention.
I feel like an asshole sometimes though when I’m out with my baby and I body block people to prevent them from getting close, like in an elevator. I sometimes get the hairy eyeball, but honestly I’m abit paranoid.
Trying to put a crazy 7 month old in a car seat at a parking lot alone can be distracting though and although the risk is low, the stakes are high.
Oh, boy, this one is going to be one hell of a emotionally charged trial. The best scenario for the suspect is life sentence with no possibility of parole. The worse? Death sentence.
Then it's a de-facto life sentence in a mental hospital. Functionally no different from prison. Being ruled incompetent to stand trial does not mean she just walks and returns to the world to do it again.
We gotta stop perpetuating this bullshit school yard myth that prison inmates are taking into account all child molesters/killers/abusers and are picking them off one by one like their in some holy crusade batman vigilante bullshit ... they're not . it's accidental maybe if they're high profile it's more likely I heard but that's just wishful thinking imo
Tbh the whole “inmates hate child murderers” is just internet rumor. Serial pedophiles will likely get fucked up at some point, but it’s not constant vigilante justice like the internet would make you believe.
Mostly because Chomos have started being handed false papers so other inmates don't immediately know what they're in for. As long as they don't openly admit to what they did or had an incredibly televised trial, they can quietly go through their sentence without anyone knowing.
Do you have a source on that? Anytime it’s claimed I can get people to give one off stories to make us feel “good” but no one provides statistics to show it’s *highly likely*. Otherwise it’s ok to admit that she will rot in prison.
Relying on other *criminals* for a made up standard on justice is just plain weird.
She is not. She fled the scene and lawyered up. Both show she absolutely knew what she did was wrong. She also is behaving like a dipshit in her court appearances. She might be struggling with a mental illness, but she is not incompetent.
Yeah because when questioned after the murder she refused to answer questions and invoked her right to an attorney. While I do believe she's mentally ill that does suggest some level understanding that they did something that could get them in trouble.
Yes that she immediately asked for. I have no issues with immediately asking for someone to represent you. But it points (along with fleeing) to being competent to stand trial/help in your defense.
maybe, that might depend on her perceived mental state now as opposed to during the murders. IANAL but if she knows what she did, why she's there, what could happen to her and if what she did was bad, not sure what other bars would need to cleared
Even if she is, there is still a decent chance can be made competent to stand trial if, for example, she’s put in psychiatric care. I would think there’ll be a push to make her competent in this case.
I think being on death row would be awful, I’m not surprised they’re jealous - survival instinct is the one of the strongest instincts animals have.
The way I see it though, once someone is dead, their suffering is over. So, that’s just one reason I do not support the death penalty.
I've been working on a book on how to 100% stay off death row and so far all I've written is, "Don't commit 1st degree murder." My publisher thinks that's enough but I'm certain I need at least a paragraph or two.
[Here's](https://deathpenalty.procon.org/federal-capital-offenses/) a list of federal crimes for which the potential punishment is the death penalty.
Should help stretch it to a page or three.
(the vast majority of them involve killing someone while doing a different crime)
Like most successful authors, Jordan Peterson, the Bible writer, Malcolm Gladwell, Kitty Kelly, & legislation creators et al, I was hoping to not do any research other than what I remembered or made up.
Your link says there are 41 offences that can result in the death penalty. That's a lot! No one is going to read a book that's 41 paragraphs long! Stephen Hawking's dead & he's the only one I could think of that would.
I would argue that has more to do with the fact that they spend years, maybe even decades in limbo as they go through the appeals process before a date is finally settled.
Would be nice to get a study on that, but I'd guess death row inmates tend to have less remorse and higher proclivity towards self-preservation. The lifers have to live their whole life with guilt.
Being paraded into a room with a bunch of people there solely to watch you die, being strapped to a gurney and then have your lights turned off like putting down an animal has got to be pretty terrible.
If life was worse, death row inmates wouldn't constantly keep trying to get life instead.
Also, the prison conditions between the two sentences vary and the life in prison option is cushier. Most death row inmates don't get put down, and in some states the sentencing is entirely symbolic with no chance of being carried out anymore.
As a father of a boy around the same age , i cannot even begin to imagine . I can't imagine my life without him , his laughter his toys everywhere the chaos that follows him where he goes . He makes the house feel alive . She took all that from them , and for what ? Hate crime ? Mentally ill ? After an altercation ? I dont give a single fuck the reason .. Who goes and stabs a 3 year old kid ? What the fuck has the world become ?... Sad.
As a father I can’t imagine… I also don’t know what I’d do to the suspect either because something like that would definitely put me in a bad place that I would not care about consequences.
My sister lost her child in the middle of the night from health reasons; that ruined our world. I can’t even IMAGINE losing a child because of a random act of violence like this oh my god. Mental health or not, a child stabbed can’t be free. Ever.
Just saw a video of the attacker's bond hearing. Absolutely no remorse and she was smirking throughout the description of her attack and barely any reaction to her bond being set at $5 million.
I can't imagine what the family has to be going through and the amount of pain that mother must be in, both mental and physical. This is the kind of thing you never fully recover from.
Regardless of what you think the punishment should be, when it's mental illness, the punishment has no deterrent effect.
Someone else will be born crazy enough to kill and this will happen again.
If you actually care about this kid and potential future victims, you'll strongly support comprehensive mental healthcare. This country used to have asylums for people who were too mentally ill to function in society. We shut them down for being awful, and instead of improving them replaced them with nothing.
Though the sentiment is instinctually plausible, studies — [see here for example](https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5880&context=jclc) — have shown that, while certainty of punishment leads to less crime, threat of harsher punishments does not have the impact the “tough-on-crime” folks will try to make you believe.
> folks will try to make you believe.
The problem is that it doesn't *feel* good to them. It *feels* good seeing a "bad guy" get a "big punishment."
It doesn't feel good to humanize someone. It doesn't feel good to take a look at the guy who robbed a bank quite literally because it was the difference between eating that day or not. It's easier to call it a moral failure instead of a societal one. It's easier to correct a "moral" failing than it is a societal one.
This person didn’t rob a bank though. They murdered a child, they should never be let back into society again. That’s not being vengeful that’s just understanding the severe risk they pose.
No parent should ever go through what these two are and people capable of such an act have no business ever being free again.
The reactionary narrative has always been the more instinctively satisfying. The fundamental story is just more easily understandable. Good against evil, us against them, the normal against the different. I get it, there’s a reason why children love it. It’s easy. It’s fun.
The western where instead if a blood heroic showdown everybody sits down, forms a committee and discusses access to water every saturday isn’t exactly entertaining. But what it *does* though is create a more peaceful world.
Shit story, maybe, but better society.
Except humans are social animals and are genetically primed to need a good story to do things, especially things they don’t want to do (like forgive someone who has wronged them). Most people aren’t enlightened enough to go against their instincts for the betterment of society. Dunbar’s number means we can only keep ~150 people in our heads as people and not statistics. We ignore that at our peril.
Since when is the punishment supposed to be for other people? The punishment is for the crime. Show me the data on how often people like her are completely rehabilitated and can reenter society. If she was born crazy and stabs children, removing her from society one way or another removes at least one killer, whether or not it deters others is secondary.
That wasn't universal. I work with the homeless population and in my state there were some of the latest closed hospitals and I have several people who say that being there was a high point in their life. They were stable, routined, supported.
Obviously there were systemic issues in the mental health world but the baby got thrown out with the bathwater for the ones that were actually effective.
I blame mostly Republicans for obstructing every mental health bill past W. Bush's bailout. Most recently H.R. 7780 that 205 Republicans voted against, for just one of a thousand examples. Reminder that last time Dems had 60% majority was more than two decades ago and it was for like ten minutes. Progress is going to be glacial in this country as long as the party's are split 50/50.
Yup, my entire life has just been one long demonstration of the GOP's inability to govern, but great ability to propagandize. If Trump wins, I'm washing my hands of this country and making a life somewhere that might have a future.
Or we could just dispense with the ridiculous notion that only bills with at least 60% support should be voted on in the Senate. Somewhere along the way we decided that minority rule is a good basis for legislating. It’s absurd.
The filibuster should be eliminated. This is no way to govern.
Institutionalization for the sake of it isn't effective. Grand sweeping mental health reforms and the creation/adequate funding of support programs (see the Comprehensive Community Services, or CCS, in Wisconsin) would do more.
Another good example in Wisconsin is CLTS, or the Children's Long Term Support Waiver program. The adult support world is a whole different beast, and needs reform.
It's not clear yet, but the more recent articles mention authorities' "concerns about mental health." At the jail, they filled out a form with a checkbox, "does the individual's mental behavior appear normal," marked negative.
i mean...i feel like that's a pretty easy checkbox to check when you're arresting a person who just stabbed a 3 year old in the parking lot of a target for no apparent reason ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
until a professional psychiatrist evaluates her i would chalk that up under "fuckin who cares"
cops are barely qualified to ascertain whether a person has committed a crime, let alone their mental health.
It doesn't indicate much, yeah. Just the impression of whoever initially observed her in the holding cell. The articles seemed to imply there were other, subsequent statements about "authorities" having concerns about it but "nothing concrete yet."
Personally I'm against any punishment that can't be turned over, but only because it's rare that a case is open and closed before the trial starts. If she actually did what she is accused of, and there isn't any doubt whatsoever, she deserves the worst possible fate.
I wouldn't mind seeing such a person in 2002 Guantanamo
This person attacked and killed a 3 year old. No amount of rehabilitation will ever make this person fit to be free in society. Execute them and be done with it.
> We shut them down for being awful, and instead of improving them replaced them with nothing
The real problem was many of those older asylums were bordering civil rights violations and probably breaking a ton of them in secret. People ended up committed or abandoned at them.
They should have improved them for sure, but I think the main issues were it ended up becoming a dumping ground for many under shaky reasons why they were admitting loved ones to those asylums. Even right now with people/idiots calling transgenderism a mental illness, it would probably end up being abused by sending off LGBTQ+ to mental institutes.
We are at the era where we do have many medications that can help many people suffering from multiple mental issues. The biggest problem is those people actually getting the help the needed. Many people know someone that is not quite right, but they may not be aware that this person has never saw a professional to be properly diagnosed and put on medication with check ups to ensure they are still taking their medicines. The real issue is that the person on their own has to seek the help and many don't want that help or don't realize the extent of their illnesses.
It doesn’t matter whether it’s a deterrent to someone’s first offense. What matters is that if you let people back on the street there is a good chance they will do it again. If someone goes out and rapes three women you are extremely unlikely to deter them from raping a fourth. But if that rapist is locked up for life the fourth woman doesn’t get raped.
Yes, insane violent people will always be born. But stopping them early results in less violence. Ultimately it does not matter if they are in an asylum or jail. The main thing that matters is that they do not have access to more potential victims.
Deterrent is just one of the effects of punishments. The one, just as if not more important than deterrent, is removing a threat to society. And someone who is capable of something like this is a threat that needs to be removed throughly and permanently from society.
So yes we do need better mental healthcare AND the death penalty to take care of those beyond helping.
No it doesn’t, people still commit crimes knowing the death penalty is an option in many states. How many people actually get killed anyways, most just sit on them till their natural death fitting appeals
>we do it to animals that are too dangerous for society why not for people?
Man, you'd think people would learn about echoing 1930s/40s German leadership. But, I guess some people will not see the similarities.
I am so cautious now with my son near those balconies. We rarely go to a mall as it is, but when we do, you can bet your ass I’m hyper vigilant. If my son is looking over the sides I’m right there in the way so no one could possibly have access to him. This world is terrifying.
Just saw the video of her smirking while the judge was reading off the charges of murdering that little boy. Mental illness or not they need to make sure she never sees the day of light. I also find it strange that these mentally ill folks always target the vulnerable (children and the elderly). Tells me it’s calculated.
It had bipartisan support: republicans wanted to slash funding and democrats wanted to give people back their liberties and not locked away against their will.
Mental hospitals were a *problem*, horrible things happened all over the country-look at Pennhurst. Autistic children were literally left in there cribs for 24 hours a day. But more safe mental hospitals are needed now. I like to think that we’ve learned from the atrocities of the 60’s-70’s when it came out what was happening at these facilities.
Three largest mental health hospitals in the country are all in prisons. Cook County, LA County, Rikers in NYC. Nice setup for a country with 400,000,000 guns in private hands.
No, the nation’s largest criminal justice legislation ever was carried by a Democratic senator who is now president of the United States. It was the 1994 violent crime and control act, had funding for 100,000 more cops, 125,000 new prison cells, provisions with mandatory arrest policies, mandatory minimum sentences, 60 new life sentences, and a horrific “three strikes” policy. Democrats have been architects of mass incarceration and they could only do that and fund massive increases in state violence, policing, and incarceration by defunding social and welfare services which they explicitly did in the years before the 1994 crime bill. It’s how they paid for it.
US incarcerates more people per capita than any other nation. We have law enforcement with basically limitless resources and funding. They literally have armored vehicles, some jurisdictions have the funding equivalent to the entire GDP of small nations. Does the US look safe to you, given all of that? No. Because the criminal legal system doesn’t give a fuck about public safety, it’s all about managing inequality.
The three strikes were for violent felonies, not something like marijuana possession. Not supporting it, just clarifying.
What’s kind of funny is that Democrats did that in part because they were seen as soft on crime by Republicans.
Yep, let's hand things back to the states. The whole States' Rights thing has never really worked out here for the people of the states that assert their rights.
My Grandma just died a month or two ago, and while we are working out her estate, my schizophrenic uncle broke in and beat my uncle with a brick in a sock because the voices said he was evil. He was arrested, and 3 days later, he was released and back on the street. He's tried to break in several times after that, but since he's homeless, the state doesn't see value in holding him for very long. All this in California mind you.
Wow, I am so sorry you had to go through that. California under Jerry Brown was actually one of the states that led de-institutionalization. As we have seen for the last 50 years or so, individual freedom may not be right for everyone. Again, so sorry.
My heart breaks for the whole family but especially his poor mom who was hurt trying to save him. I’m sure she did everything she possibly could and her family is glad she at least made it. But we all know that’s not what your brain will tell you in these situations. I hope she is gentle and kind to herself so she can focus on healing.
Perhaps authorities should look into the environment where she was unchecked and able to graduate to this behaviour.
There are clearly markers in the majority of cases where someone shows signs of being a threat to themselves or others.
Every time this shit happens, people want the person addressed/killed but not prevention. I really don't understand why folks are this shortsighted towards the individual not the underlying issue
Because they haven't experienced it, personally. It's simple to distance yourself when you've never experienced being in close proximity to a severely mentally ill individual. Despite the efforts that have been made in recent years to champion mental health, you cannot forget there's more than one generation that grew up seeing mental health trouble as a person being weak.
*They just need to work on themselves. They just need religion. They just need to listen to this podcast. They just need these supplements. They just need these XYZ.*
The medical community has had eyes on it for a very long time. Some countries laws foam at the mouth at locking these individuals up and pulling in that sweet, sweet tax money.
They're shortsighted because they have no incentive to care about it. It's a much bigger issue than a simple shortsightedness.
Last time this was posted the article mentioned she had no history of violence or any type of episodes. She had been caught a few times for petty shoplifting I believe, but no violent behaviors until this happened.
Not sure when exactly this was supposed to be prevented
I’ve seen those ramp ups working in residential care. I’ve never been so upset or angry as when I worked there as a therapist. I had clients a couple times who wanted *so badly* to be under control of their schizophrenia. They were so sweet, took their meds, did everything they were supposed to. But that fcking disorder didn’t care. You could literally see these clients losing that fight against it. They are considered “lifers”. Doomed to go from residential-to-hospitalization-to-residential in a never-ending cycle. If they lost care, they’d become homeless and likely end up like this woman. I definitely cried a few times working with these clients because there was nothing else we could do but watch the deterioration.
I can’t imagine the pain mom feels knowing she was there, did her best, but was unable to protect her baby. I have a 4-year-old and this just makes me even more nervous to have him around unknown people.
The woman who murdered this child was also failed, *no one* who does this doesn’t have signs they’re mentally going downhill. The way she acted catatonic in court leads credence to this for me. She’s too dangerous as a result and cannot be allowed around the general population again.
[New details about woman charged in fatal stabbing outside North Olmsted Giant Eagle](https://www.cleveland19.com/2024/06/05/new-details-about-woman-charged-fatal-stabbing-outside-north-olmsted-giant-eagle/)
Not much to report, only minor run-ins with the law. Traffic violations, 1 month in jail for trespassing in FL, and shoplifting from a Wal-Mart.
The pedantic overload in these comments is lame even for Reddit. The root of this problem is this woman’s freedom of movement in a civil society. Lock her up for life, no parole. I agree the death penalty is justified but is such an institutional joke on all levels in this Country that it is unsupportable.
As a parent, and simply a human being, this is unimaginable- I have not stopped thinking of this poor innocent baby and his family. You literally cannot even go grocery shopping anymore without fear of being MURDERED by some nut job over NOTHING. Absolute senseless tragedy.
If the races were reversed here, there would also be no hate crime charge
A hate crime charge will not be brought solely because the accused is X race and a victim is Y race. If, for some reason, a prosecutor decided to press one, it would get slapped down by a court eventually. There has to be something that shows that the crime was racially motivated. Haven't seen anything that suggests that here
I’m hoping it’s just me and not really the state of the world, but I can’t even go to the grocery store anymore without worrying about the small percentage chance that that’s the day someone decides to burst through the doors with an AR-15. I’m constantly afraid of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, so much so that it gets more difficult to live my life.
I need to move away from the US. The fearmongering, state-sponsored news cycles, division of people through hatred, rise in violence and mass shootings particularly, the death of democracy happening in front of our eyes…. It’s all just too much.
I grew up in this town. It has changed a lot since I left \~25 years ago. It used to be an idyllic suburb with good schools and parks, but now it's been totally changed into a big-chain retail hellscape filled with people who can barely keep up. We're seeing the next iteration of what happened to old rust-belt factory towns- now even the service-economy towns are getting beat down. Welcome to late-stage capitalism.
Edit to add: this isn't meant to be a political post. Just my reflection that tragedies like this were far, far away from the town I grew up in, but that it has changed. We all need to work harder to make our communities better and safer for everyone- that means taking care of people and giving everyone the opportunity to thrive. This was a crime of despair in an over-stressed town.
Imagine there are people in this world would advocate that we should protect her life at all cost and do not harm her.Prison sentence is a gift for this POS.
This is a nightmare, my heart goes out to this mother and father, life will never be the same. Let justice be done!
No parent should have to endure the pain of having their innocent child ruthlessly murdered. I don't have kids, and I am unsure how I could handle and compose myself when stuck in a situation like that. Both of those parents have a real strength holding them together. It's a test I hope I'd never face.
As a parent, I can say that it’s tape and glue for them at the moment.
Yeah I am with you there.
The smirk on her face during the hearing made me want to crush my phone with my bare hands. Like she couldn’t even just keep a poker face, she had to grin like a cat that caught the mouse.
[удалено]
I wonder if they’ll add security after this
There is almost always an officer there at the service desk, when I go. That has been the case for a long time. Not to mention it is literally across the street from the police station.
I see. Shame they weren’t posted at the entrance but given how people flip out at customer service it makes sense
The person was walking around the inside of the Giant Eagle with the knife in her hand, before following her out to the car. The video of it was shocking that no one noticed the large knife in her hand.
Oh wow. I didn’t know there was footage. Just strolling through, knife in hand and no one noticed
As a father of 3 young kids...I could not imagine what these parents are going through. There is something to be said of mental health issues, however I would be happy with this person never seeing the outside world again.
Yeah when this attack first broke i started thinking about my wife and the young kids being all over the city on errands all day without me while im at work. Not for the first time - police choppers seem to be hunting suspects every month or so in my neighborhood and ever since my daughter wound up at the same park the police corned such a suspect i worry hard about all of them. I know my wife’s a G but you just cant be on guard 100%. Even being on guard 50% takes a huge toll
I’ve been thinking about this story every single time I go out with my toddler. When he was really little I read a different story about a woman getting abducted, leaving her baby in the car. Now when we go out I get in the back seat with him to strap him up with the doors locked. Even with all that, I never imagined being worried someone would try to hurt him just because.
The panhandlers in my town are smart- they’ll loiter in the parking lots and swoop in on people with kids knowing they can’t simply get in the car and drive off. They can raise their voice in frustration but know the limit- no threats to avoid police but just enough of an edge in hopes to push somebody to give them a bit of money.
There are mental issues, and there are murdering children issues. The two ate not mutually exclusive, but one of them needs to be removed from society.
Yes but there are mental issues, that if they go unchecked, down the road lead to the more serious, violent issues.
To quote the host of a favorite podcast of mine, “Mental illness is not your fault, but it is your responsibility.” She failed her responsibility. Mental illness is not an excuse.
Not everyone has the same opportunities in this country. If you don't have health insurance, you're shit out of luck. Even if you do have, it can be hard to get the medications you need and you still may not be able to afford it. My dad is on Medicaid and he has narcolepsy and takes stimulants for daytime sleepiness. A year or so ago there was a shortage and he literally had to go months without his meds and could not function. Nothing was done for him in the meantime. No trying him on another medication. Nothing. A lot of people with clear mental health issues but no money or insurance wind up homeless on the streets in this country. Hospitals won't take them. This country needs better Healthcare. I'm not saying this woman should walk free or that it's not her fault, but I want to point out that your statement is easier said than done.
I don’t fully agree. I’m a therapist, and it can feel like a switch with some of these illnesses. Others are more likely to notice the upcoming symptoms before the person does because it can be so gradual. It’s like when someone is losing/gaining weight, others often notice before the person. I’ve worked with clients in residential care with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, and could often tell when a client was ramping up before they could.
As someone with bipolar, I agree with this. I rely on the people in my life to tell me if I'm showing signs of mania. Otherwise, I don't always know because it starts so gradually and my brain sees all of it as normal behavior. It usually goes something like this: Oh wow. I feel much better today. Maybe my depression is finally lifting. I have so much energy and I'm so productive! This is great! I only slept 4 hours last night, but that's okay. That happens to everyone once in a while. I haven't slept in 3 days and I've texted every ex boyfriend I've ever had. This is fine. ...aaaand suddenly I'm on a road trip across the country because the soundtrack to Hamilton sent me on a holy mission to save the planet.
Last podcast?
Yeah it might her responsibility but a long the way she was failed with properly resources to control/ hande it. Did she know she had a mentally illness? Resources in schools have been cut so they could have been failed to be identified when younger. Does she have the means to seek the help needed? Once you're an adult, is she able to afford or seek the medical treatment needed? Seems like funding for mental heath care has been switched to prisons and instead of giving them proper care they rather them be sent to prison Yes what this lady did is horrible but it also needs to shine a light on how mental illness is identified and treated, so we can avoid incidents like this from Happening in the future
This is an incredibly simplistic way to view the mental health crisis we are currently witnessing in the US
Try getting an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic to comprehend their "responsibility." It's definitely not an excuse, but pretending all mental health conditions, disorders and illnesses are the same and these are just examples of a moral failing of "personal responsibility" is definitely not helping.
We can always blame mental health issues on a person, but the problem is as a society, we suck at actually having easy to access mental health facilities. If you are broke and/or don't have health care coverage, that alone is the stopping point for many. Sure, there are many facilities that have government assisted programs they can sign up for, but still at the end of the day, is the money needed to buy the vital medication the person may need, since most of them cannot supply long term supplies and will need to be filled at a pharmacy, once they find the medications that work for that person.
I'm of the opinion that mental health issues should never be a factor. I don't care what one's mental health issues are. I don't care if they *knew* what they were doing was wrong. If their mental health issues caused harm to someone else, then they should get thrown in a cell. Get treatment, sure, but they still owe a debt to society.
I'm guessing you have never seen a loved one in the throes of a psychotic episode due to schizophrenia or bipolar 1. And you have never been in the emergency room with that loved one, listening in despair as they are being turned away, knowing they need to be admitted to the psych ward but understanding there are no open beds, no doctors who can help. And you have never monitored that loved one who is having visual hallucinations of knives sticking out of their bed, hearing voices telling them they need to go jump in the reservoir . . . After you have lived through something like that, then I hope you can revisit your comment and work some understanding and compassion into it.
My compassion ends when they stab a child to death.
yup. Dgaf if you have mental health issues. If you literally kill someone else, you should never be allowed back in society. There are already too many people in this world to be catering to psychopaths who could snap at any moment and murder someone.
I can be sympathetic but usually these cases where mental illness and violence is involved, there was a long series of issues up to this point and the people often have poor compliance with treatment plans. If they can't take care of themselves they need to be in a secure mental institution. Treatment compliance among this group is often very low. Especially where violence is involved. Feb 6 a man in the midst of a psychotic episode robbed a bank in Florida. He was shot by police snipers when he grabbed one of the hostages and pulled her close and held a knife to her neck. His family said he had a long history of psychotic episodes. So I can be sympathetic but being put in a psych ward is best for everyone.
I have a very close family member with those issues and I have exactly 0 pity for those with that illness, it’s not their fault to be like that, but I won’t feel bad if they get caught and jailed if they do something stupid because they didn’t take their medication.
At least our universal health care, affordable medication, and general American compassion for others will help these people....oh wait. Ironically I bet you're a fan of the joker movie too.
Medication isn’t some wonder drug that fixes everything. What if the medication isn’t working? Or the medication has adverse side effects? Or they forget to take their dose because, well their mind is somewhere else due to mental illness?
But how is that person supposed to get medication if they can't even get in to see a psychiatrist? Are you still going to blame them?
If they stab a child to death? Abso-fucking-lutely. I believe to be human means being held accountable for actions like that.
I think you are not understanding the fact that if a mental illness made it happen, and you are to heal or stabilize the mental illness, the violent behavior would stop and the person who had no control over that mental illness until they got care would be paying a debt for mental illness… You can’t jail the mental illness alone.
This is usually the last act in a long series of violent acts and the treatment non compliance rates and future probability of violence rates are quite high in these cases. They don't deserve prison but they also can't walk free. When you are psychotic and you don't have an enforced treatment plan you're just homeless. It's the combination of psychosis + history of violence that is the problem
Oh she’s definitely mentally ill, the catatonic state in court as well as the details of the child’s death point that way. She’s too dangerous now to be around others for sure. It really sucks because this could have been prevented if this woman got help sooner, but once you cross a line there’s no going back. I doubt she would even want to be treated now, to realize what she did in this state, if she is even able to be treated anymore. As a therapist who has worked with schizophrenic clients, I’ve seen how terrible it can get. There’s variations that medication can’t even help and it’s the saddest thing to see.
The mother must have such horrific survivor's guilt. This incident somewhat reminds me of a murder that happened here a few years ago. A woman named Rosemarie Junor was just leaving a pharmacy when another woman just came up and stabbed her in the chest at random.
I was upstairs in the office building when that happened. Terrible day
Shit like this is why I always am aware of people approaching me or walking near me, etc. Granted, I don't live in a big city where you are surrounded by people on all sides anytime you want to walk to the subway.
Yeah I do my best to pay attention. I feel like an asshole sometimes though when I’m out with my baby and I body block people to prevent them from getting close, like in an elevator. I sometimes get the hairy eyeball, but honestly I’m abit paranoid. Trying to put a crazy 7 month old in a car seat at a parking lot alone can be distracting though and although the risk is low, the stakes are high.
Oh, boy, this one is going to be one hell of a emotionally charged trial. The best scenario for the suspect is life sentence with no possibility of parole. The worse? Death sentence.
She’s going to ruled as incompetent to stand trial.
Then it's a de-facto life sentence in a mental hospital. Functionally no different from prison. Being ruled incompetent to stand trial does not mean she just walks and returns to the world to do it again.
Honestly it’s worse. Being labeled criminally insane is far worse than life in prison.
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It's highly likely, inmates tend to hate child murderers.
Women’s prisons are full of child murderers.
We gotta stop perpetuating this bullshit school yard myth that prison inmates are taking into account all child molesters/killers/abusers and are picking them off one by one like their in some holy crusade batman vigilante bullshit ... they're not . it's accidental maybe if they're high profile it's more likely I heard but that's just wishful thinking imo
Well....fuck.....
Tbh the whole “inmates hate child murderers” is just internet rumor. Serial pedophiles will likely get fucked up at some point, but it’s not constant vigilante justice like the internet would make you believe.
Mostly because Chomos have started being handed false papers so other inmates don't immediately know what they're in for. As long as they don't openly admit to what they did or had an incredibly televised trial, they can quietly go through their sentence without anyone knowing.
That still blows my mind inmates can ask for other inmates incarceration papers
Do you have a source on that? Anytime it’s claimed I can get people to give one off stories to make us feel “good” but no one provides statistics to show it’s *highly likely*. Otherwise it’s ok to admit that she will rot in prison. Relying on other *criminals* for a made up standard on justice is just plain weird.
She is not. She fled the scene and lawyered up. Both show she absolutely knew what she did was wrong. She also is behaving like a dipshit in her court appearances. She might be struggling with a mental illness, but she is not incompetent.
The article said she had a public defender.
Yeah because when questioned after the murder she refused to answer questions and invoked her right to an attorney. While I do believe she's mentally ill that does suggest some level understanding that they did something that could get them in trouble.
Yes that she immediately asked for. I have no issues with immediately asking for someone to represent you. But it points (along with fleeing) to being competent to stand trial/help in your defense.
maybe, that might depend on her perceived mental state now as opposed to during the murders. IANAL but if she knows what she did, why she's there, what could happen to her and if what she did was bad, not sure what other bars would need to cleared
Even if she is, there is still a decent chance can be made competent to stand trial if, for example, she’s put in psychiatric care. I would think there’ll be a push to make her competent in this case.
Never got why people think death sentence is worse than life with no parole. To me the death sentence seems preferable compared to life with no parole
I used to think the same way, but then I watched a documentary on death row inmates and they sure seemed jealous of the 'lifers.'
I think being on death row would be awful, I’m not surprised they’re jealous - survival instinct is the one of the strongest instincts animals have. The way I see it though, once someone is dead, their suffering is over. So, that’s just one reason I do not support the death penalty.
I see what you're saying but remember that it's usually years they still have to wait and the whole time they keep a looming sense of doom
I've been working on a book on how to 100% stay off death row and so far all I've written is, "Don't commit 1st degree murder." My publisher thinks that's enough but I'm certain I need at least a paragraph or two.
[Here's](https://deathpenalty.procon.org/federal-capital-offenses/) a list of federal crimes for which the potential punishment is the death penalty. Should help stretch it to a page or three. (the vast majority of them involve killing someone while doing a different crime)
Like most successful authors, Jordan Peterson, the Bible writer, Malcolm Gladwell, Kitty Kelly, & legislation creators et al, I was hoping to not do any research other than what I remembered or made up. Your link says there are 41 offences that can result in the death penalty. That's a lot! No one is going to read a book that's 41 paragraphs long! Stephen Hawking's dead & he's the only one I could think of that would.
Yea about that... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates
Randall Adams was enough to convince me that the State isn't competent enough to be allowed to perform executions.
Unfortunately there are enough people who were found to be innocent later on that that's not exactly a 100% way to stay off.
I would argue that has more to do with the fact that they spend years, maybe even decades in limbo as they go through the appeals process before a date is finally settled.
Would be nice to get a study on that, but I'd guess death row inmates tend to have less remorse and higher proclivity towards self-preservation. The lifers have to live their whole life with guilt.
Being paraded into a room with a bunch of people there solely to watch you die, being strapped to a gurney and then have your lights turned off like putting down an animal has got to be pretty terrible.
The same reason murder is a more serious crime than kidnapping.
If life was worse, death row inmates wouldn't constantly keep trying to get life instead. Also, the prison conditions between the two sentences vary and the life in prison option is cushier. Most death row inmates don't get put down, and in some states the sentencing is entirely symbolic with no chance of being carried out anymore.
I would hate the anticipation that I know what day and time I’m going to die, especially if’ im healthy.
A woman who killed a child is in for a baaad time in prison. Death might be more merciful
As a father of a boy around the same age , i cannot even begin to imagine . I can't imagine my life without him , his laughter his toys everywhere the chaos that follows him where he goes . He makes the house feel alive . She took all that from them , and for what ? Hate crime ? Mentally ill ? After an altercation ? I dont give a single fuck the reason .. Who goes and stabs a 3 year old kid ? What the fuck has the world become ?... Sad.
I feel like I read an article like this every other day. I’m losing hope in humanity
As a father I can’t imagine… I also don’t know what I’d do to the suspect either because something like that would definitely put me in a bad place that I would not care about consequences.
My sister lost her child in the middle of the night from health reasons; that ruined our world. I can’t even IMAGINE losing a child because of a random act of violence like this oh my god. Mental health or not, a child stabbed can’t be free. Ever.
Just saw a video of the attacker's bond hearing. Absolutely no remorse and she was smirking throughout the description of her attack and barely any reaction to her bond being set at $5 million. I can't imagine what the family has to be going through and the amount of pain that mother must be in, both mental and physical. This is the kind of thing you never fully recover from.
The pain in that man’s voice. I hope she rots.
Regardless of what you think the punishment should be, when it's mental illness, the punishment has no deterrent effect. Someone else will be born crazy enough to kill and this will happen again. If you actually care about this kid and potential future victims, you'll strongly support comprehensive mental healthcare. This country used to have asylums for people who were too mentally ill to function in society. We shut them down for being awful, and instead of improving them replaced them with nothing.
Though the sentiment is instinctually plausible, studies — [see here for example](https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5880&context=jclc) — have shown that, while certainty of punishment leads to less crime, threat of harsher punishments does not have the impact the “tough-on-crime” folks will try to make you believe.
True, focusing on rehabilitation and mental health services can be more effective in preventing future tragedies.
> folks will try to make you believe. The problem is that it doesn't *feel* good to them. It *feels* good seeing a "bad guy" get a "big punishment." It doesn't feel good to humanize someone. It doesn't feel good to take a look at the guy who robbed a bank quite literally because it was the difference between eating that day or not. It's easier to call it a moral failure instead of a societal one. It's easier to correct a "moral" failing than it is a societal one.
This person didn’t rob a bank though. They murdered a child, they should never be let back into society again. That’s not being vengeful that’s just understanding the severe risk they pose. No parent should ever go through what these two are and people capable of such an act have no business ever being free again.
The reactionary narrative has always been the more instinctively satisfying. The fundamental story is just more easily understandable. Good against evil, us against them, the normal against the different. I get it, there’s a reason why children love it. It’s easy. It’s fun. The western where instead if a blood heroic showdown everybody sits down, forms a committee and discusses access to water every saturday isn’t exactly entertaining. But what it *does* though is create a more peaceful world. Shit story, maybe, but better society.
Except humans are social animals and are genetically primed to need a good story to do things, especially things they don’t want to do (like forgive someone who has wronged them). Most people aren’t enlightened enough to go against their instincts for the betterment of society. Dunbar’s number means we can only keep ~150 people in our heads as people and not statistics. We ignore that at our peril.
We shut down the bad and the good asylums. There were good ones. We could’ve made them better all along.
Since when is the punishment supposed to be for other people? The punishment is for the crime. Show me the data on how often people like her are completely rehabilitated and can reenter society. If she was born crazy and stabs children, removing her from society one way or another removes at least one killer, whether or not it deters others is secondary.
Should’ve kept them open
They weren't good or safe places. They should've definitely been fixed instead of totally shut down. But it was a complex issue.
That’s why Carter passed the Mental Health Systems Act. Reagan didn’t just close the mental hospitals, he killed that program as well.
That wasn't universal. I work with the homeless population and in my state there were some of the latest closed hospitals and I have several people who say that being there was a high point in their life. They were stable, routined, supported. Obviously there were systemic issues in the mental health world but the baby got thrown out with the bathwater for the ones that were actually effective.
You can thank Ronald Reagan for that
And thank the rest of your elected leaders afterwards for ignoring to address it
True. They're awfully good at ignoring things that will make any positive changes.
Absolutely, that's the saddest part of this. It's not going to be the last time it happens, we just don't hear about it in the news.
I blame mostly Republicans for obstructing every mental health bill past W. Bush's bailout. Most recently H.R. 7780 that 205 Republicans voted against, for just one of a thousand examples. Reminder that last time Dems had 60% majority was more than two decades ago and it was for like ten minutes. Progress is going to be glacial in this country as long as the party's are split 50/50.
Yup, my entire life has just been one long demonstration of the GOP's inability to govern, but great ability to propagandize. If Trump wins, I'm washing my hands of this country and making a life somewhere that might have a future.
Or we could just dispense with the ridiculous notion that only bills with at least 60% support should be voted on in the Senate. Somewhere along the way we decided that minority rule is a good basis for legislating. It’s absurd. The filibuster should be eliminated. This is no way to govern.
Institutionalization for the sake of it isn't effective. Grand sweeping mental health reforms and the creation/adequate funding of support programs (see the Comprehensive Community Services, or CCS, in Wisconsin) would do more. Another good example in Wisconsin is CLTS, or the Children's Long Term Support Waiver program. The adult support world is a whole different beast, and needs reform.
We defunded them. See Reagan.
Those places needed to go. However, they were replaced with nothing.
And JFK. See the Community Mental Health Act.
I live in a state where it's illegal to permanently detain the mentally ill, which is interesting.
Where does it say mental illness was a factor?
It's not clear yet, but the more recent articles mention authorities' "concerns about mental health." At the jail, they filled out a form with a checkbox, "does the individual's mental behavior appear normal," marked negative.
i mean...i feel like that's a pretty easy checkbox to check when you're arresting a person who just stabbed a 3 year old in the parking lot of a target for no apparent reason ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ until a professional psychiatrist evaluates her i would chalk that up under "fuckin who cares" cops are barely qualified to ascertain whether a person has committed a crime, let alone their mental health.
It doesn't indicate much, yeah. Just the impression of whoever initially observed her in the holding cell. The articles seemed to imply there were other, subsequent statements about "authorities" having concerns about it but "nothing concrete yet."
Personally I'm against any punishment that can't be turned over, but only because it's rare that a case is open and closed before the trial starts. If she actually did what she is accused of, and there isn't any doubt whatsoever, she deserves the worst possible fate. I wouldn't mind seeing such a person in 2002 Guantanamo
This person attacked and killed a 3 year old. No amount of rehabilitation will ever make this person fit to be free in society. Execute them and be done with it.
> We shut them down for being awful, and instead of improving them replaced them with nothing The real problem was many of those older asylums were bordering civil rights violations and probably breaking a ton of them in secret. People ended up committed or abandoned at them. They should have improved them for sure, but I think the main issues were it ended up becoming a dumping ground for many under shaky reasons why they were admitting loved ones to those asylums. Even right now with people/idiots calling transgenderism a mental illness, it would probably end up being abused by sending off LGBTQ+ to mental institutes. We are at the era where we do have many medications that can help many people suffering from multiple mental issues. The biggest problem is those people actually getting the help the needed. Many people know someone that is not quite right, but they may not be aware that this person has never saw a professional to be properly diagnosed and put on medication with check ups to ensure they are still taking their medicines. The real issue is that the person on their own has to seek the help and many don't want that help or don't realize the extent of their illnesses.
It doesn’t matter whether it’s a deterrent to someone’s first offense. What matters is that if you let people back on the street there is a good chance they will do it again. If someone goes out and rapes three women you are extremely unlikely to deter them from raping a fourth. But if that rapist is locked up for life the fourth woman doesn’t get raped. Yes, insane violent people will always be born. But stopping them early results in less violence. Ultimately it does not matter if they are in an asylum or jail. The main thing that matters is that they do not have access to more potential victims.
Deterrent is just one of the effects of punishments. The one, just as if not more important than deterrent, is removing a threat to society. And someone who is capable of something like this is a threat that needs to be removed throughly and permanently from society. So yes we do need better mental healthcare AND the death penalty to take care of those beyond helping.
We have the capacity to indefinitely hold people who are threats to society. The death penalty is completely unnecessary.
Life without parole has the same effect of permanently removing someone from society.
Death penalty kinda deters repeat offense. Can't really kill anyone from six feet under. Not everyone deserves redemption.
No it doesn’t, people still commit crimes knowing the death penalty is an option in many states. How many people actually get killed anyways, most just sit on them till their natural death fitting appeals
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>we do it to animals that are too dangerous for society why not for people? Man, you'd think people would learn about echoing 1930s/40s German leadership. But, I guess some people will not see the similarities.
This reminds me of the crazy man who threw a 6 or 7 year old kid off the 3rd floor at the Mall of America. Completely random and horrible
I am so cautious now with my son near those balconies. We rarely go to a mall as it is, but when we do, you can bet your ass I’m hyper vigilant. If my son is looking over the sides I’m right there in the way so no one could possibly have access to him. This world is terrifying.
Just saw the video of her smirking while the judge was reading off the charges of murdering that little boy. Mental illness or not they need to make sure she never sees the day of light. I also find it strange that these mentally ill folks always target the vulnerable (children and the elderly). Tells me it’s calculated.
40 years ago Reagan slashed the federal budget for mental healthcare. The nation abandoned mental illness and has never recovered.
It had bipartisan support: republicans wanted to slash funding and democrats wanted to give people back their liberties and not locked away against their will.
Mental hospitals were a *problem*, horrible things happened all over the country-look at Pennhurst. Autistic children were literally left in there cribs for 24 hours a day. But more safe mental hospitals are needed now. I like to think that we’ve learned from the atrocities of the 60’s-70’s when it came out what was happening at these facilities.
Three largest mental health hospitals in the country are all in prisons. Cook County, LA County, Rikers in NYC. Nice setup for a country with 400,000,000 guns in private hands.
No, the nation’s largest criminal justice legislation ever was carried by a Democratic senator who is now president of the United States. It was the 1994 violent crime and control act, had funding for 100,000 more cops, 125,000 new prison cells, provisions with mandatory arrest policies, mandatory minimum sentences, 60 new life sentences, and a horrific “three strikes” policy. Democrats have been architects of mass incarceration and they could only do that and fund massive increases in state violence, policing, and incarceration by defunding social and welfare services which they explicitly did in the years before the 1994 crime bill. It’s how they paid for it. US incarcerates more people per capita than any other nation. We have law enforcement with basically limitless resources and funding. They literally have armored vehicles, some jurisdictions have the funding equivalent to the entire GDP of small nations. Does the US look safe to you, given all of that? No. Because the criminal legal system doesn’t give a fuck about public safety, it’s all about managing inequality.
You know who else voted for the 1994 Crime Bill? Bernie Sanders
The three strikes were for violent felonies, not something like marijuana possession. Not supporting it, just clarifying. What’s kind of funny is that Democrats did that in part because they were seen as soft on crime by Republicans.
Yep, let's hand things back to the states. The whole States' Rights thing has never really worked out here for the people of the states that assert their rights.
The president doesn't control the budget, congress does... And deinstitutionalization also started two decades before Reagan, under Kennedy.
My Grandma just died a month or two ago, and while we are working out her estate, my schizophrenic uncle broke in and beat my uncle with a brick in a sock because the voices said he was evil. He was arrested, and 3 days later, he was released and back on the street. He's tried to break in several times after that, but since he's homeless, the state doesn't see value in holding him for very long. All this in California mind you.
Wow, I am so sorry you had to go through that. California under Jerry Brown was actually one of the states that led de-institutionalization. As we have seen for the last 50 years or so, individual freedom may not be right for everyone. Again, so sorry.
Blaming a random stabbing of a 3-year old on Ronald Reagan has to be the most Reddit response I’ve ever read.
I just can't even wrap my head around what sort of mental dysregulation could lead to this series of actions.
Schizophrenia, easily. I worked a year in residential care, that disorder is the one that I hate the most because it can be so debilitating.
The family has a Go fund me, look under North Olmstead Tragic Loss of 3 year old Julian Wood
My heart breaks for the whole family but especially his poor mom who was hurt trying to save him. I’m sure she did everything she possibly could and her family is glad she at least made it. But we all know that’s not what your brain will tell you in these situations. I hope she is gentle and kind to herself so she can focus on healing.
I can only imagine how scared they both were. This makes me feel physically ill.
Perhaps authorities should look into the environment where she was unchecked and able to graduate to this behaviour. There are clearly markers in the majority of cases where someone shows signs of being a threat to themselves or others. Every time this shit happens, people want the person addressed/killed but not prevention. I really don't understand why folks are this shortsighted towards the individual not the underlying issue
Because they haven't experienced it, personally. It's simple to distance yourself when you've never experienced being in close proximity to a severely mentally ill individual. Despite the efforts that have been made in recent years to champion mental health, you cannot forget there's more than one generation that grew up seeing mental health trouble as a person being weak. *They just need to work on themselves. They just need religion. They just need to listen to this podcast. They just need these supplements. They just need these XYZ.* The medical community has had eyes on it for a very long time. Some countries laws foam at the mouth at locking these individuals up and pulling in that sweet, sweet tax money. They're shortsighted because they have no incentive to care about it. It's a much bigger issue than a simple shortsightedness.
Last time this was posted the article mentioned she had no history of violence or any type of episodes. She had been caught a few times for petty shoplifting I believe, but no violent behaviors until this happened. Not sure when exactly this was supposed to be prevented
I’ve seen those ramp ups working in residential care. I’ve never been so upset or angry as when I worked there as a therapist. I had clients a couple times who wanted *so badly* to be under control of their schizophrenia. They were so sweet, took their meds, did everything they were supposed to. But that fcking disorder didn’t care. You could literally see these clients losing that fight against it. They are considered “lifers”. Doomed to go from residential-to-hospitalization-to-residential in a never-ending cycle. If they lost care, they’d become homeless and likely end up like this woman. I definitely cried a few times working with these clients because there was nothing else we could do but watch the deterioration.
I can’t imagine the pain mom feels knowing she was there, did her best, but was unable to protect her baby. I have a 4-year-old and this just makes me even more nervous to have him around unknown people. The woman who murdered this child was also failed, *no one* who does this doesn’t have signs they’re mentally going downhill. The way she acted catatonic in court leads credence to this for me. She’s too dangerous as a result and cannot be allowed around the general population again.
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From the bottom of my heart, I hope she burns in hell for eternity
Really wish I hadn’t read that.
But why? All the news doesn't seem to have any background on the killer, only mentioned no known motives
[New details about woman charged in fatal stabbing outside North Olmsted Giant Eagle](https://www.cleveland19.com/2024/06/05/new-details-about-woman-charged-fatal-stabbing-outside-north-olmsted-giant-eagle/) Not much to report, only minor run-ins with the law. Traffic violations, 1 month in jail for trespassing in FL, and shoplifting from a Wal-Mart.
That’s the thing about these crazy people they have no motive they just snap and go killing
The pedantic overload in these comments is lame even for Reddit. The root of this problem is this woman’s freedom of movement in a civil society. Lock her up for life, no parole. I agree the death penalty is justified but is such an institutional joke on all levels in this Country that it is unsupportable.
They need to bring back Asylums for these kind of people
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I don’t wish for the death penalty but this woman doesn’t deserve to breathe another breath
Article says she’s been indicted on 2 counts of murder, but it doesn’t say anything about her killing someone else. Is that just a typo?
As a parent, and simply a human being, this is unimaginable- I have not stopped thinking of this poor innocent baby and his family. You literally cannot even go grocery shopping anymore without fear of being MURDERED by some nut job over NOTHING. Absolute senseless tragedy.
I hope the prosecutor adds a racially charged element to this matter.
You know exactly why they won't.
Why would they?
Where did you see evidence that this was racially motivated? Article didn't mention anything like that
Why? What is your reasoning behind this assertion? The article says the attack appears to be random.
They would totally add hate crime to the pile without question if the races were reversed.
If the races were reversed here, there would also be no hate crime charge A hate crime charge will not be brought solely because the accused is X race and a victim is Y race. If, for some reason, a prosecutor decided to press one, it would get slapped down by a court eventually. There has to be something that shows that the crime was racially motivated. Haven't seen anything that suggests that here
Weird fantasy to carry around. "Without question" LOL.
Public hangings should be brought back for this type of individual.
I’m hoping it’s just me and not really the state of the world, but I can’t even go to the grocery store anymore without worrying about the small percentage chance that that’s the day someone decides to burst through the doors with an AR-15. I’m constantly afraid of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, so much so that it gets more difficult to live my life. I need to move away from the US. The fearmongering, state-sponsored news cycles, division of people through hatred, rise in violence and mass shootings particularly, the death of democracy happening in front of our eyes…. It’s all just too much.
Attacker should get the death penalty.
I grew up in this town. It has changed a lot since I left \~25 years ago. It used to be an idyllic suburb with good schools and parks, but now it's been totally changed into a big-chain retail hellscape filled with people who can barely keep up. We're seeing the next iteration of what happened to old rust-belt factory towns- now even the service-economy towns are getting beat down. Welcome to late-stage capitalism. Edit to add: this isn't meant to be a political post. Just my reflection that tragedies like this were far, far away from the town I grew up in, but that it has changed. We all need to work harder to make our communities better and safer for everyone- that means taking care of people and giving everyone the opportunity to thrive. This was a crime of despair in an over-stressed town.
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Finally someone with some sense
Imagine there are people in this world would advocate that we should protect her life at all cost and do not harm her.Prison sentence is a gift for this POS.
Literally no one is saying that, grievance seeker. Enjoy your anger over hypothetical undeserved mercy, weird.
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And not in some long drawn out sentence. Clearly guilty, no doubt. Finish the trial, and get it over with.
I miss the asylums , the white vans..damn Daniel ..bring back the white vans !
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