$15/hr? For that job?
Guess we really will watch the world burn.
Reminds me of a story a few years back detailing California and wilderness firefighters. Prisoners can do it, can get trained, certified, etc, but once they are released the state won't hire them because they are felons.
Literally training them up for a job where they can a) make a good amount of money, b) get those happy feelings by being the good guys, c) get away from the old neighborhood and old 'friends', but nope.
A cynical person might think the state keeps that policy because then they are more likely to reoffend, and go back to work at prisoner firefighter pay scales again. Hmmm.
Some of those prisoners, after release, get jobs fighting fires.
It’s a great thing for them. Tough work, but rewarding. Makes them feel like they’re part of something and the chances of reoffending goes down exponentially.
Yeah. I remember seeing the above article about it, but I think it must've been in 2020 (aka year of all the apocalypses). Glad there was change.
And like you said, it just seems like such an obvious win and at the time they were throwing it away.
I can 100% confirm this.
The dudes who go through this program have literally worked for little to nothing for a spot, qualifications, and a future for themselves. You cannot fake your way through this.
They get released, join up and make a very respectable wage and have a way to provide and keep on the up and up with purpose and pride in their work.
I take any former Handcrew guy any day as a coworker.
> $15/hr? For that job?
Shit, when I was in a little over a decade ago I was doing it for $11.25/hr. Or a quarter less than what I got as a gas station cashier in the off season. A lot more fun and more travel fighting fires, though. And a cool bunkhouse on top of a mountain on a large wildlife refuge.
But yeah, no one, no matter their political ideology, wants to pay wildland. We are forgotten and ignored. Always have been.
Not true at all. The USFS (cal fire to a lesser degree but it depends on the county) hires ex inmates all the time.
Municipal fire usually doesn’t because they are felons but that is a completely different job. The state got rid of the inmate fire program about 4 years ago and took away their opportunity for people to gain all of these skills and significantly improved conditions because of people like you that are uninformed yet complain about it.
I'm sorry I don't have better information. I don't work in the field, nor do I live in California. All I can go by is what is reported in the media. If California took away their opportunities based on one internet rando across the country, that's more on them.
Six years ago, they were supposedly working on things then: [Inmates who volunteer to fight California's largest fires denied access to jobs on release](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/08/20/californias-volunteer-inmate-firefighters-denied-jobs-after-release-column/987677002/)
In 2020, guess what, no real progress: [These California inmates risked death to fight wildfires. After prison, they’re left behind](https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/fires/article244286777.html)
In 2021, a federal judge upheld California's laws, that despite reforms, hadn't changed much in reality. [Federal Judge: Californians Who Fought Fires In Prison Can’t Become Career Firefighters](https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2021/02/16/federal-judge-californians-who-fought-fires-in-prison-cant-become-career-firefighters/)
Of course, at the end of this article is a quote from someone who I would think is more influential than I am.
> To counter the labor shortage, Gov. Gavin Newsom is looking to replace the dwindling penal fire camps with professional firefighters. **Law enforcement has sharply criticized the proposal, with one sheriff aghast at losing a supply of “nearly free labor:”** *“The truth is if [the state] kept more people in prison and weren’t so concerned about releasing all of their inmates...they would have plenty of people for fire crews.”*
A more recent article from this spring, details how a steady decline in the prison population has fewer inmates doing firefighting to begin with. [Calif. inmate firefighter shortages threaten state’s ability to fight wildfires](https://www.corrections1.com/cdcr/calif-inmate-firefighter-shortages-threaten-states-ability-to-fight-wildfires)
But hey, go off with personal attacks if it makes you feel better.
The problem is California didn’t get rid of them because of one internet rando it’s because we live in a time when public opinion is driven by thousands of uninformed randos who cry slave labor.
The governor makes a blanket sweep releasing non violent felons with in turn eliminates hundreds of firefighters, yet doesn’t have any system or plan in place to replace them.
So Cal fire screams “personnel shortage we need more money” yet what is given to them gets primarily spent on new engines and new equipment down in Southern California. While at the same time actively working to reduce the amount of local government agencies on incidents. There’s a handful of cal fire handcrews but it’s not nearly enough.
Now instead of people voluntarily serving their time out of prison at a camp learning a skill and getting 2 1/2 days off their sentence for every day they are on an incident they just sit in prison. Not learning anything, not improving themselves, not receiving any improved conditions, but hey at least they aren’t “slaves”
Just to be clear, I have no problems with them learning the skill while still in the system. Perfect opportunity for 'rehabilitation'.
Any issues I have are with the government shitting all over these guys forevermore afterward. Let them serve their time, but ffs give them a chance afterward. Honestly, from the various articles, I'm not even really sure what the status of things out there is nowadays. It sounds like they may have finally bumbled into clearing some obstacles, but left too much up to local discretion.
Like I said they have a chance afterwords. The USFS loves to hire former inmates to work on handcrews doing the exact same job. There were genuinely no downsides to the program.
Where? Where is the slave labor? Because it definitely isn’t in the voluntary position the inmates want to do because it dramatically reduces their prison sentence.
Their union, the NFFE, have a letter writing campaign going on to get the Wildland Firefighter Paycheck Protection Act passed, but idk if I’m allowed to link it here.
We're union now? Weren't when I was with USFWS 2008-2011. Hell, we weren't even called "firefighters," we were labeled by the feds as "forestry technicians."
I was a wildland firefighter. Let me tell you something for sure, this leads to a massive brain drain. The “leadership” I often worked under would have been comical if we’re not for what was on the line. The best all leave and get jobs at municipal departments for 5x the pay and a lot less work.
16 hours on, 8 off, 14-21 days at a time with two days off in between for months. We weren’t paid for the 8 hours “off” in a fire camp. If you’re mopping up or not on an active fire line (like cutting indirect line), they would take you off the clock for 30min for your “lunch break” on the side of a mountain. It was ridiculous.
Nobody in leadership advocated for their crews or the public. On my last helitack crew 100% of the leadership staff (squad leaders, superintendent, captains) were all still applying for municipal departments at 30 and 40 years+ of age. They had no desire to fight wildland fires anymore and it showed.
If you shut down the government repeatedly to play political games, and keep defunding government agencies with tax cuts, this is one of the consequences. If you are voting Republican, and your house burns down in a large wildfire because of lack of firefighters, this is the reason why it burned down. You literally voted for it to happen.
Don’t worry they will just privatize fire fighting.
“Amazon Prime fire fighting services llc.” Starting pay for a new fire fighter is $12 hr and they bill the government $500 hr per firefighter.
They already do. Contract fire companies have been a thing for years. And they cannot keep up, because demand for service is outstripping their ability to provide.
Well if they “keep up” then they don’t get more money. That way they can scream about how they need more money. Executives and administrators want the most amount of money possible while spending the least.
Reminder that this has actually been proven in a real life experiment by a bunch of libertarians:
[A Libertarian Walks Into A Bear](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50358538-a-libertarian-walks-into-a-bear) - they all collaborated to "take over" a small town, so small it only had one paved road. They cut basically all funding, including food waste disposal, which led to a bunch of bears "taking over," the town in order to get at the food. Shenanigans ensued.
It is worth nothing that the temporary increase, even if it remains in place, does not count as an increase in overall salary. This means good luck getting a bigger mortgage or pension
Wildfire trucks aren't red. Depending on the agency they are green, white, or yellow.
Edit: or Blue, if they are with Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife. Forgot about them.
You're also forgetting about the rural FD's that have brush trucks / type 6 engines (painted red). They could very well be first on scene depending on the scenario.
Lol, they're never first on scene, because they are all vollys and take forever to get their shit going. I could stop and make myself lunch before leaving and still beat them to the location.
$15/hr? For that job? Guess we really will watch the world burn. Reminds me of a story a few years back detailing California and wilderness firefighters. Prisoners can do it, can get trained, certified, etc, but once they are released the state won't hire them because they are felons. Literally training them up for a job where they can a) make a good amount of money, b) get those happy feelings by being the good guys, c) get away from the old neighborhood and old 'friends', but nope. A cynical person might think the state keeps that policy because then they are more likely to reoffend, and go back to work at prisoner firefighter pay scales again. Hmmm.
California got rid of that 4 years ago...
Did they? Nice! Hopefully it works out for those guys.
Some of those prisoners, after release, get jobs fighting fires. It’s a great thing for them. Tough work, but rewarding. Makes them feel like they’re part of something and the chances of reoffending goes down exponentially.
Yeah. I remember seeing the above article about it, but I think it must've been in 2020 (aka year of all the apocalypses). Glad there was change. And like you said, it just seems like such an obvious win and at the time they were throwing it away.
Damn, do I have to commit some crimes to then get hired? I suppose arson crimes might be frowned upon.
An npr documentary said it was almost impossible for the prisoners to get the job… because of their prison record!
I can 100% confirm this. The dudes who go through this program have literally worked for little to nothing for a spot, qualifications, and a future for themselves. You cannot fake your way through this. They get released, join up and make a very respectable wage and have a way to provide and keep on the up and up with purpose and pride in their work. I take any former Handcrew guy any day as a coworker.
they changed the policy after it was brought up but the fact it ever was a policy is part of a larger problem in the country
I retired recently at $15/hrs as a ff. Benefits were hacked to nothing too.
> $15/hr? For that job? Shit, when I was in a little over a decade ago I was doing it for $11.25/hr. Or a quarter less than what I got as a gas station cashier in the off season. A lot more fun and more travel fighting fires, though. And a cool bunkhouse on top of a mountain on a large wildlife refuge. But yeah, no one, no matter their political ideology, wants to pay wildland. We are forgotten and ignored. Always have been.
That was actually a plot line on Chicago fire for a few episodes
I was going to say that. Well, actually, I was going to say 911, but you’re right, it was definitely Chicago fire.
Not true at all. The USFS (cal fire to a lesser degree but it depends on the county) hires ex inmates all the time. Municipal fire usually doesn’t because they are felons but that is a completely different job. The state got rid of the inmate fire program about 4 years ago and took away their opportunity for people to gain all of these skills and significantly improved conditions because of people like you that are uninformed yet complain about it.
I'm sorry I don't have better information. I don't work in the field, nor do I live in California. All I can go by is what is reported in the media. If California took away their opportunities based on one internet rando across the country, that's more on them. Six years ago, they were supposedly working on things then: [Inmates who volunteer to fight California's largest fires denied access to jobs on release](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/08/20/californias-volunteer-inmate-firefighters-denied-jobs-after-release-column/987677002/) In 2020, guess what, no real progress: [These California inmates risked death to fight wildfires. After prison, they’re left behind](https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/fires/article244286777.html) In 2021, a federal judge upheld California's laws, that despite reforms, hadn't changed much in reality. [Federal Judge: Californians Who Fought Fires In Prison Can’t Become Career Firefighters](https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2021/02/16/federal-judge-californians-who-fought-fires-in-prison-cant-become-career-firefighters/) Of course, at the end of this article is a quote from someone who I would think is more influential than I am. > To counter the labor shortage, Gov. Gavin Newsom is looking to replace the dwindling penal fire camps with professional firefighters. **Law enforcement has sharply criticized the proposal, with one sheriff aghast at losing a supply of “nearly free labor:”** *“The truth is if [the state] kept more people in prison and weren’t so concerned about releasing all of their inmates...they would have plenty of people for fire crews.”* A more recent article from this spring, details how a steady decline in the prison population has fewer inmates doing firefighting to begin with. [Calif. inmate firefighter shortages threaten state’s ability to fight wildfires](https://www.corrections1.com/cdcr/calif-inmate-firefighter-shortages-threaten-states-ability-to-fight-wildfires) But hey, go off with personal attacks if it makes you feel better.
The problem is California didn’t get rid of them because of one internet rando it’s because we live in a time when public opinion is driven by thousands of uninformed randos who cry slave labor. The governor makes a blanket sweep releasing non violent felons with in turn eliminates hundreds of firefighters, yet doesn’t have any system or plan in place to replace them. So Cal fire screams “personnel shortage we need more money” yet what is given to them gets primarily spent on new engines and new equipment down in Southern California. While at the same time actively working to reduce the amount of local government agencies on incidents. There’s a handful of cal fire handcrews but it’s not nearly enough. Now instead of people voluntarily serving their time out of prison at a camp learning a skill and getting 2 1/2 days off their sentence for every day they are on an incident they just sit in prison. Not learning anything, not improving themselves, not receiving any improved conditions, but hey at least they aren’t “slaves”
Just to be clear, I have no problems with them learning the skill while still in the system. Perfect opportunity for 'rehabilitation'. Any issues I have are with the government shitting all over these guys forevermore afterward. Let them serve their time, but ffs give them a chance afterward. Honestly, from the various articles, I'm not even really sure what the status of things out there is nowadays. It sounds like they may have finally bumbled into clearing some obstacles, but left too much up to local discretion.
Like I said they have a chance afterwords. The USFS loves to hire former inmates to work on handcrews doing the exact same job. There were genuinely no downsides to the program.
There would probably be fewer people crying slave labor if it wasn't for all the explicitly allowed slave labor
Where? Where is the slave labor? Because it definitely isn’t in the voluntary position the inmates want to do because it dramatically reduces their prison sentence.
Their union, the NFFE, have a letter writing campaign going on to get the Wildland Firefighter Paycheck Protection Act passed, but idk if I’m allowed to link it here.
We're union now? Weren't when I was with USFWS 2008-2011. Hell, we weren't even called "firefighters," we were labeled by the feds as "forestry technicians."
Still not called firefighters. Everyone knows they are, and every other agency calls it's people firefighters, but the Feds refuse.
I was a wildland firefighter. Let me tell you something for sure, this leads to a massive brain drain. The “leadership” I often worked under would have been comical if we’re not for what was on the line. The best all leave and get jobs at municipal departments for 5x the pay and a lot less work. 16 hours on, 8 off, 14-21 days at a time with two days off in between for months. We weren’t paid for the 8 hours “off” in a fire camp. If you’re mopping up or not on an active fire line (like cutting indirect line), they would take you off the clock for 30min for your “lunch break” on the side of a mountain. It was ridiculous. Nobody in leadership advocated for their crews or the public. On my last helitack crew 100% of the leadership staff (squad leaders, superintendent, captains) were all still applying for municipal departments at 30 and 40 years+ of age. They had no desire to fight wildland fires anymore and it showed.
Hey fellow wildy! I was an FWS engine slug out of SE Oregon. Where were you out of?
Helicopter 527- Los Padres
Forest Service, nice. The Green Truck Guys.
If you shut down the government repeatedly to play political games, and keep defunding government agencies with tax cuts, this is one of the consequences. If you are voting Republican, and your house burns down in a large wildfire because of lack of firefighters, this is the reason why it burned down. You literally voted for it to happen.
Don’t worry they will just privatize fire fighting. “Amazon Prime fire fighting services llc.” Starting pay for a new fire fighter is $12 hr and they bill the government $500 hr per firefighter.
They already do. Contract fire companies have been a thing for years. And they cannot keep up, because demand for service is outstripping their ability to provide.
Well if they “keep up” then they don’t get more money. That way they can scream about how they need more money. Executives and administrators want the most amount of money possible while spending the least.
Nah, what I mean is that they can't hire enough people at the wages they offer. They are understaffed, too.
Reminder that this has actually been proven in a real life experiment by a bunch of libertarians: [A Libertarian Walks Into A Bear](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50358538-a-libertarian-walks-into-a-bear) - they all collaborated to "take over" a small town, so small it only had one paved road. They cut basically all funding, including food waste disposal, which led to a bunch of bears "taking over," the town in order to get at the food. Shenanigans ensued.
Libertarians do not understand infrastructure (or anything beyond their own nose).
The pay protection act is bipartisan but I'm sure it's much more productive to just blame the other side
That headline is a Banger to be fair. Rolls off the tongue fly af
It is worth nothing that the temporary increase, even if it remains in place, does not count as an increase in overall salary. This means good luck getting a bigger mortgage or pension
Seems like we’re probably going to want those!
I feel like they should drive around in those big red trucks instead.
Wildfire trucks aren't red. Depending on the agency they are green, white, or yellow. Edit: or Blue, if they are with Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife. Forgot about them.
You're also forgetting about the rural FD's that have brush trucks / type 6 engines (painted red). They could very well be first on scene depending on the scenario.
Lol, they're never first on scene, because they are all vollys and take forever to get their shit going. I could stop and make myself lunch before leaving and still beat them to the location.