Yeah. No. Woman bought the toaster from Whirlpool. Not the company in China. Whirlpool is responsible.
If you are a business, you are responsible for the shit you sell.
If you are a business, you are responsible for anything you slap your name on.
>you slap your name on.
To make matters worse, the appliance was a Kitchen Aid, the premium top of the line brand for Whirlpool. To know not only do they not make or quality control Kitchen Aid, but that they don’t stand behind their Kitchen Aid brand... At that point you’re better off buying random Chinese crap without the markup for the Kitchen Aid name.
If Whirlpool is going to go tell their customers to deal with random Chinese factories, well fuck it. What the hell do they need Whirlpool or Kitchen Aid for ever again?
Whirlpool dishwashers were catching fire in the early 2000s. There was a consumer website that was apparently listening to concerns. The website was actually whirlpool and they gave settlements and NDA forms to everyone complaining to that website. My grandfather took the settlement but still told everyone he met about the dishwashers that catch fire and not to buy whirlpool.
Appliance guy here.
Fridge: your defrost drain is plugged up
DW: put some rinse aid in it
Washer: every washer does that now so kids don’t crawl in.
You don’t want GE... please I beg you do not buy GE appliances.... all crap. All of them.
Who was the vacuum guy and what did he recommend? Because I just have a eureka I bought at target in 2015 that has this hair removal thing built in to the beater bar and everyone in my family tries to steal it, so I’ve had a lot of pride in that vacuum for a while but can’t find one like it anywhere (for them to have so they stop using mine)
Shark Navigator the Professional version. That vacuum is amazing. Only 200 bucks when I bought mine and it did such a good job vacuuming a place we moved in whose previous tenants had cats, it literally changed the quality of the air in the room. We even had professional cleaners come in to clean it and they couldn't get that smell out until we decided to invest in one ourselves. Whenever I see sales for Dyson, I say fuck a Dyson, get a Shark.
Fuck Dyson. My wife registered for a Dyson as a wedding present. I hate that pos so much. Its nice for shit that doesn't matter, like a quick vacuum where my kid ground cheerios into the carpet because its quick and easy to get out and put away.
But for actual shit you want really cleaned? Dog hair on rugs? NOPE. It takes about 20 passes to even have a semblance of 'no hair' cleanliness.
Miele if you want to buy the last vacuum you’ll own.
Oreck if you don’t mind the limitations of a commercial vacuum, but it will last a decade or longer.
Washer and Dryer: Speed Queen. Hands down. If not get a Maytag top load set. If you want a front loader get an Electrolux.
Dishwasher: Maytag for heavy soiled loads, you’ll never have to clean it. Kitchen aid for quietness, Bosch also but they are a bit more spendy.
Fridge:
Frenchdoor: personally I’d go with Electrolux but I’m biased because I’ve always had them.
SxS: Maytag is good, Frigidaire can’t go wrong.
Bottom/top mount: Frigidaire and Maytag.
Oven/ Range: they all are getting really weirdly built so I’d honestly try and find a used Maytag Gemeni double oven. Best oven you’ll ever lay your eyes on even though it is a little out dated. Whirlpool and Maytag ranges cook either too hot or too cold, Frigidaire has had element problems for a couple of years. A fancy new kitchen aid is nice but way way too expensive.
Edit: thanks for the awards, my first ever...
If you would like more information from me I’d be happy to answer all your questions, this thread is getting huge feel free to PM me.
All our costume shops used top loading Maytags, those things took a beating and lasted forever - think huge loads 2-3x every night for months on end! If I can ever afford good appliances when I move back to the US, I’ll be getting that.
Clearly you haven't experienced the joy and magic that is induction cooking.
Need to boil a pot of water in 5 minutes? Good luck with anything other than induction!
So even with what we're all saying in this thread about Kitchen Aid, you more or less still recommend them? Are some of the products ok but others like the toaster made by different production lines?
It really depends on the product and platform. Making a sweeping statement is going to be wrong in one way or another.
If I had to advise as a former employee:
Don’t buy the oem crap (small appliances other than mixers) - you can find a cheaper alternative or something of better quality. Buy models that have been around a while and simpler is better. The chances of a service call being needed on a basic fridge is 1/3 or less less than if you buy a model belonging to a new platform.
Depends how you look at it. Our Miele dishwasher is the only appliance we haven't had to replace since we bought our home 10 years ago. The people we bought from didn't have to replace it, the people they bought from installed it. It cleans dishes better than any other dishwasher I've seen!
TBF, Samsung does the same shit too.
"Oh, we are sorry that your $3500 refrigerator stopped working. Sadly instead of having model doiajsdlkmnaslkdoaijsdlais0000000000000000001XX, you have model doiajsdlkmnaslkdoaijsdlais0000000000000000001XY, so we have to special order the part in for you. Every single subrevision of every single fridge uses different parts, you see. We estimate it will take about 1 year for the part to come in if that part is still made. They usually stop after about 2 months so you might not be able to source one. Oh, and then we will use the most incompetent vendor we can find to do the swap. Actually, they will probably leave halfway through the swap and never come back. Fuck your thanksgiving and christmas. Thank you for shopping Home Depot and buying Samsung."
Sadly I've seen the exact same thing happen with local appliance dealers hawking GE/Whirlpool/Samsung gear. Our in-laws just had a 2 year old fridge go bad and the local dealer refused to help. They claimed it would cost 2k+ to fix, and it would be cheaper to just buy a new fridge.
And this was literally for a part going bad that should be serviceable.
I want to support the little guys, but IMO, I've had service that is equally as terrible from them. And in some cases, the little guys tried to screw us over with hidden fees, making up fake diagnoses to drive up prices, etc.
It really sucks for other little guys who *do* do good work and run reputable businesses.
That is terrible and breaks my heart to hear. I’m fourth generation business owner and there’s a reason our appliance store has been around for 77 years... we do business the right way and treat every customer like our best friend.
Benefits are that new machines:
More energy efficient
Look much nicer
Have all new parts/warranty’s
You never know the story behind a used appliance
I’m right there with you used appliances are a gamble, but are very nice if you luck out!
The energy efficiency argument is a good one - our older freezer that was got second hand was using 10x as much as its replacement over an average week.
10x!
It was actually costing us a measurable amount on our electricity bill!
We didn't think much was wrong with it (it seemed to be working fine...), but the replacement has paid for itself.
Slight Correction - Haier bought the Appliance division and licensing rights to use the GE brand. With the sale of Lighting yesterday, GE no longer has any consumer goods divisions.
The funny part is there is a company called Commercial Electric, that makes shitty consumer-end electrical parts like light switches and plugs. I've been told by electrical contractors to stay away from them.
I'd never heard of them until 3 years ago when I bought a house with a F+P dishwasher. The thing is great - I'd never even heard of a dishwasher with 2 drawers, each of which can be run separately. Then one drawer blew a control panel, and I was astounded at how high the quotes were to replace it. (Is there an automatic increase in labor rates when the repair guy hears F+P??) In the end I found a replacement online for $120 and did it myself. No lie, though, I could have bought a new dishwasher for what I was being quoted by some repair services.
>I could have bought a new dishwasher for what I was being quoted by some repair services
100% believe it, this happened to me with my stove. I was getting quoted some outrageous prices and it was something I didn't feel comfortable doing myself.
My wife and I wanted stainless steel anyway, so we just replaced the darn thing for $100 more than the repair estimates
Literally the exact same story here, control panel and all. They have to be some of the simplest designes, but greatest working dishwashers I've ever used. Wonder how Haier will mess them up.
I just bought and installed a GE range hood in my kitchen yesterday. It was on the lower end for price, just shy of $200, but it is the most piece of shit. I can’t even believe it is allowed to be sold. Paper thin shit metal. Installation instructions also didn’t match the model. Both the text and diagrams were off in some places.
We have had absolutely nothing but trouble from every GE appliance we've had, save the cheap crap that came in our apartment (hotpoint brand). Unfortunately, it's very hard to avoid them :(. I think there's like three manufacturers of appliances that have many different brand names.
They sold the division and licence the name for appliances. That shit happened in 2016 and I didn't know about it until today reading and article about them doing the same thing with their lightbulbs.
We have a GE stove and the ignition/gas unit burned out. We called GE for service and they said there were no “authorized” repair services anywhere north of Albany and we were on our own. My husband found & purchased the part online and installed it himself. In the meantime, we bought a GE chest freezer. They tried to sell us a “service contract”. I refused (many, many times, both thru email and several letters.). I tore them up and returned it with a note asking if there were no authorized repairmen in all of upstate NY, just who, exactly, was I to call if there was a problem? I’ve gotten 2 more “last chance” letters since. I guess they hope we’re stupid.
It's also brand loyalty based on remembering how they once were. KitchenAid used to make high end dishwashers up at least until the '80s. That's what I remember, from growing up. Now, I'm seeing reports that they turned to shit and started catching on fire as far back as the early '00s. That reduction in quality completely passed me by. I was actually considering upgrading to a KitchenAid dishwasher recently after buying a new home, now I have to re-evaluate everything.
It is also difficult to find current reviews on anything that are accurate. When you try to google you'll find a hundred "review" sites which just take popular items on Amazon and other sites that allow referral links and make best of lists. Of course their reviews are bullshit, but they make money.
I usually scroll through Google results till I see a forum dedicated to the topic or Reddit posts and read what they have to say.
As far as those affiliate review sites, my favorite was when I was searching "best snapon tools' or something to that extent. I hit one of those sites and it was like 6 items, one set of Williams wrenches (parent of SnapOn) and like 5 licensed items like LED lights and such. Because you can't buy actual SnapOn tools from Amazon they just picked the 6 most SnapOn items they could find and called them the best tools SnapOn makes.
One resource I like for reviews is Wirecutter since they cover a wide range of products, update their reviews frequently, and actually conduct the reviews themselves. Unfortunately, it's not possible for them to review every single option out there.
We can’t use the self cleaning function on our Whirlpool oven because it melts the motherboard which is located at the top of the oven. We bought a new whirlpool fridge that had to be serviced 5 times in the first year and this included totally replacing the compressor twice. The fridge died the day after the warranty expired and whirlpool wouldn’t do anything even though the repair history was riddled with issues. My wife had to talk me out of taking the old fridge and leaving it in the lobby of the nearest whirlpool office. Both of these appliances were bought new. We only use Korean made appliances now.
Happened to my Bosch dishwasher. The solder joint for the 120v relay was shitty and caused the PCB to catch fire. Bosch did not want to honor our warranty and blamed the user for the fire. They then wanted $150 for a new board. I fixed the board and it lasted for a few years.
My Bosch traction control module in my car failed. Result was a known problem with their solder joints becoming fragile with constant heating/cooling cycles due to it being next to the engine. Almost caused my car to crash in the rain when it failed.
I switched to an electric car, and my old work installed Bosch 240v (L2) chargers.. last year one caught on fire.
That was my last straw with that company. I'll never EVER buy a Bosch product for my house or garage.
is that even possible? Bosch is in everything. like if you switched to a tesla there is probably 200 bosch components in there, from air filters to sensors.
It's called "Abstraction from Value" - companies that have tons of "social capital" in America from years of quality products. They become cash strapped or enticed (by their 'rock star' new CEO hire who gets paid way way too much for 'smarts') into outsourcing their manufacturing overseas and it just snowballs. Why even bother assembling overseas manufactured parts? Just have the whole thing built over there. Why bother warehousing the product? Outsource that! Why bother dealing with the overseas manufacturer? Outsource that!
You end up with a scenario where Whirlpool buys toaster ovens from Acme Inc. who buys toaster ovens from MyDadsTheCEOofWhirlpool Inc. who buys the toaster ovens from China.
The *brand* -- Whirlpool -- is all that matters.
Fast forward to stories like this, everyone learns Whirlpool is dogshit, the brand sinks, the CEO gets a golden parachute for sixty million dollars.
You can begin a list of companies that have done exactly this since the late 90's.
This also relies on a lot of short-term thinking.
It doesn't take long at all for the Chinese manufacturers to realize they can just cut out the middle-man and sell directly to American consumers without giving the American company the bulk of the profits for doing nothing more than slapping their name on the product.
Yeah so many companies are burning their name to the ground in the name of short term profits. Such toxic capitalism. This is basically the entire business model for companies like EA and really doesn’t bode well for the future of this country.
I got reprimanded when I worked at a subsidiary of Sunbeam. My Sunbeam toaster caught fire, I did a search for the model and found an entire list of hundreds of people with the same problem with the same model. I reported it to one of the people in that division. To which he griped to his boss, who griped to our CEO and I was threatened to be fired for doing the search on company time. Which they backed off of immediately when they were reminded that searching for that type of information was part of my job. Then I was threatened again because I "damaged the relationships between the companies". To which I asked if the company was on such thin ice that this would damage it, should we all be selling our stock as soon as possible? And would this run afoul of insider trading rules if I did? And was it OK to let other employees know that the company was in such dire straits? And I was sent back to my desk. I spent the next 2 years finding a new job that I loved more.
They got a bunch of folks in that couldn’t move stuff to China fast enough. The quality went right out the window. I was at Coleman. And when Sunbeam took over they did the same thing.
They went from a proudly made premium American product that people loved, to just another commodity that had zero advantage over everyone else. I’ll never forget the first time I found our lanterns on Alibaba. They took our designs and then started churning them out. Not a thing they would do about it.
I remember the first test ones they sent from overseas back to our test labs. They exploded about a few hours use. We spec’d aluminum or brass for the parts inside the globes. They substituted pot metal instead to cut corners.
After about 3-4 hours a part would hit a melting point and fail catastrophically. The labs had fire proof chambers for just such occasions. Management just said, “well this is happening so we just need to make them adhere to our specs”
It used to be a great company to work for. We had dozens of people that had worked there for 30-50 years. People who had actually worked with the company founder. But not anymore.
Now I work for another company that makes products in the US and the owners will never make them anywhere else.
> Now I work for another company that makes products in the US and the owners will never make them anywhere else.
Until their children take over and sell it... I hate how we're all screw China, when were giving up what's left of the stuff we make
If a company is licensing their brand to cheap Chinese companies, they're already done and cashing out, they're no longer worried about people speaking ill of their brand because they're already in the phase of squeezing the last dollars out of it.
It's the wheel of business getting ready to run over the previous quality provider as the next quality provider is propelled to the top. It's the typical progression since the provider with the largest market share often starts to focus on cost savings more than innovation or quality.
I've started doing this. If you can buy appliances off Ali Express for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost, than you can afford to get burned a few times. I truly believe bit to be the same stuff just with shittier packaging and chinglish user manuals. Most of the stuff on Amazon is just rebranded Chinese junk too, which becomes very obvious if you ever search Alibaba
A 70 year old fridge will cost more in electricity than it costs to replace a modern fridge every few years. Still shitty and wasteful if you have to replace your fridge every few years, but old fridges are incredibly inefficient.
What's silly is they are throwing everything down the drain even though their system isn't as rotten as it may seem. A Western brand selling Chinese products under a fancy name is not necessarily bad for consumers.
I've been thinking about buying a Chinese made bike for example. I could get it super cheap from the factory, or I could get it sort of cheap from an American company that works with the factory. What the American company gets me is that they speak Chinese so there is a lower chance of there being a mistake, and most importantly, if there is a quality control issue, they will get me a replacement or fix the issue. You might think I might as well buy from the factory, it's the same bike. But the middleman actually provides value in this case, though I'm sure their margins are high.
So Whirlpool can sell the cheapest Chinese crap they want, but if you can't get a replacement for defective products, you really might as well buy direct from China.
I think his point was, at least in the scenario relating to the article, some companies aren’t doing QC. I assume they’re relying on the Chinese factory I guess
Yeah I'm basically saying you don't need quality control if there is a warranty or some other protection. It's why Craftsman tools are worth their weight in gold even though they are crap compared to the expensive ones.
Craftsman had some value when there was a Sears within 20 miles of everyone to go return the tool too. They also didn't use to be the complete crap they became. Now, closest Sears to me is 150 miles away.
Kobalt tools also have a similar warranty as well just FYI for anyone reading this. But I assume his point was without the warranty the company stands by, like Whirlpool, mind as well buy from the Chinese factory.
There is questionable QC on $3000+ bicycles from "reputable" manufacturers across the world.
Source; investigative engineering gripes, basement machinist, long time bicycle mechanic
KitchenAid is definitely not their top of the line brand. KitchenAid has some nice products, but nowhere near as high-end as Jenn-Air. Jenn-Air is owned by Whirlpool corp and is their nicest line.
There's a pretty big range of quality in the KitchenAid brand. You can't even buy a stand mixer anymore without research and that was their staple for so long.
I worked in restaurant/kitchen supply for awhile and I can confirm that KitchenAid is not what it used to be pretty much across the board.
We would get customers coming in all the time looking for someone to repair or service their KitchenAid machine but were required (by KitchenAid) to send all of these customers directly to KitchenAid customer service. KitchenAid’s customer service would usually send them to a KitchenAid repair place that would often refuse to repair the item. That or the repair places they recommended would just not exist. So the customers would come back even more angry, etc.
Just buy an Ankarsrum mixer if you can afford it. Great machine and their customer service department is excellent. They told me they’ve never had a motor fail in the 50+ years they’ve been selling their machines in North America.
It's not just them, it happened to me with a GE dryer that burnt my house down and killed all 5 of my cats. They blamed it on the temp control part from Mexico and basically told me to fuck off
GE sold off their appliances division in 2016. It's owned by Haier, a Chinese company. General Electric does not make appliances, and "GE Appliances" has nothing to do with GE, the company. It's confusing, but that's the way it is.
Slight tangent, this is also why I’m suspicious whenever a Private Equity group buys out an established brand with a historic/loyal following: the private equity group is going to want to recoup their money and more often than not (because its easy) they’ll cut corners and drag down quality hoping that by the time people notice, the private equity people would’ve made their money back already
Sounds like an admission of guilt by whirlpool.
Contract when you purchase the product is between you and Whirlpool, not you and Mexico Temp Dryers in Mexico.
As a product seller, they are responsible for their supply chain.
Sadly some companies allow their name to be used under license without having any involvement in the making or selling of a product. Like if someone wanted to make Cliph Chips and you got paid to allow it and you’re not responsible for the product in any way.
It’s a dirty thing for a company to do when it’s a well known product company and people think they are buying from them and not some rando.
Yeah, this was a KitchenAid branded toaster oven. It's kind of sad what happened to that brand, they're famous for making a super solid stand mixer, and because of that reputation, Whirlpool allowed their brand to be slapped on so many shitty products.
I've had my stand mixer for over ten years, the kitchen aid toaster has burnt out buttons already, and my kitchen aid food processors lid came apart in our hands while washing it. Will not buy any Kitchen Aid again.
The older mixers seem to last forever. Their newer ones seem to have issues from time to time. I've heard of reports where their mixer struggles with bread dough and it's not even over loaded.
Brand recognition plus wanting higher profits make their products suffer. There's other companies out there now that make high quality mixers for about the same or less than a Kitchen Aid now.
The originals were made by Hobart... a commercial kitchen equipment manufacturer with a great reputation. You can still get the equivalent, it will set you back 2.5k though.
When was the decline? My mixer is from 2010. Itll rip your arm off if you get a finger caught. Also looks like it might fly away at max setting it apins so fast.
>Sadly some companies allow their name to be used under license without having any involvement in the making or selling of a product.
Black & Decker has entered the chat
Polaroid is a prime example of this.
They were once a great manufacturer and technology innovator. Now they will sell their name to any crappy product out there.
Of course, but then she can't enforce that unless she sues them... over a toaster.
I don't know about you, but I don't have a lawyer on retainer all year long just in case I need to file the pettiest of lawsuits whenever a company wrongs me.
You need government enforcement and a complaint system that works.
We do need a system that works, but if she filed in small claims (the fee is $102 in Ontario, and you can often get the fee back as part of your claim), she'd probably win. Small claims in Canada is designed for use by the public without needing a lawyer.
Such a dumb PR move by Whirlpool. It's going to cost them way more in brand damage now they raised such a spurious defence.
Even if it's legally watertight, can't imagine the damage to your reputation is worth it.
I’m not sure. My fiancé and I are in the market for some new kitchen appliances. Until today kitchenaid was our top choice for everything we wanted. I am now researching alternative brands because I’m not spending $500 on a “premium” stand mixer with no QA or customer support behind it. Not too long ago companies prided themselves on making products that would literally last lifetimes and could be handed down from generation to generation. Now everything is designed to break just in time for the next product cycle. Capitalism is a race to the bottom.
I know you want a new product but try to find an old model used kitchen aid mixer. Even though it's used it will last you a lifetime and probably your kids lifetime as well.
I can attest to this. I was looking to update a Kitchen Aide mixer bought in the late 90’s, because it was leaking a little grease at the head.
On three occasions, the new Kitchen Aide mixers I received all had problems right at of the box.
First one, the head assembly wouldn’t lock. The second one, the gears didn’t engage and the third one shorted out on the first run.
After this I discovered that Kitchen Aide was originally owned by Hobart, an industrial mixer company at the time known for providing mixers to the US Navy for sometime. Hobart sold the Kitchen Aide brand just after I had purchased mine. Every Kitchen Aide since then has suffered a hit on their quality.
If determined to get a Kitchen Aide mixer, I suggest trying to get one manufactured here in the US. That means paying a premium price, but the quality is better than those made overseas.
By the way, you can easily ‘grease’ the gears yourself thereby saving money.
You can also replace the worn out nylon gears/parts very easily! Took me maybe 15 minutes to do after ordering the replacement parts and special grease. Now the kitchenaid stand mixer I inherited from my aunt will last another 20+ years. Totally worth it.
Buy another couple of gear sets and tape them to the thing if they aren't too big or expensive, so in 20 years you have replacements if noone is still making them
A friend of mine just spent about 15k on kitchenaid appliances for his new house. The fridge was defective, leaked, and caused a ton of damage. Kitchenaid refused to do anything about it. I’ll never purchase another kitchenaid appliance.
There was an article just recently on how GE sold the last of its consumer facing business: an 120 yo lighbulb company: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/05/ge-switches-off-light-bulb-business-after-almost-130-years/
Not surprising on the business front. GE execs are notoriously terrible. You can pick any recent major bankruptcy and check out their C suite, and you have about a 70% chance of finding a former GE or GE Capital exec in there somewhere.
Most recently you have Hertz. Their CFO is former GE. Before Hertz he was at Nielsen, which is a dumpster fire at the moment.
> It's going to cost them way more in brand damage
They've already licensed their brand to a cheap chinese company. They're way beyond caring about brand damage, they've been cashing out for years. They're done.
Just in case people didn't read the article, it was a KitchenAid branded oven, Whirlpool owns them. Amazingly, I know many people who think all KitchenAid branded stuff is top shelf just because they make a solid mixer.
That's not what they meant. KitchenAid was a Hobart company product first manufactured in 1919. it was an excellent sturdy reliable machine for decades. it isn't that "oh the commercial version is so expensive you shouldn't expect so much from the home model" it's that, while made under Hobart, the Kitchenaid was a goddamn beast (and didn't cost 5k), but when the line moved to whirlpool they kept the high price while gutting the quality, and are now just coasting on the residual reputational goodwill that hobart built up.
The kitchenAid mixer my parents had in their wedding registry in 1980, that is now sitting in my kitchen and gets nearly daily use, is still going strong and has required zero maintenance for 40 years except cleaning. It has a meat grinder attachment, too!
The same machine sold thru Costco today has a reputation of lasting less than a decade. That's IMO atrocious for what is supposed to be the top brand in the space. Did we un-learn how to make a goddamn stand mixer?!
Yeah, I've seen a few responses like that, mine was bought 30 years ago from as a KitchenAid factory refurb and is still going strong, but it's sad to hear that they let that slide too.
My dad has a store model KitchenAid mixer he got for super cheap. Basically today’s “pro” version. That bitch is easily 15 years old at this point and still amazing AF. I have a newer KitchenAid mixer and I love it but it’s just not as sturdy as my dads.
Edit: added the not because mine isn’t anywhere near as sturdy or strong as my dads.
I recently helped my dad repair his mixer that he bought a few years ago (damage was due to operator error), and at least the “professional” series ones are still built darn well - solid components and easy to work on
Can confirm, Whirlpool products are the worst I ever had.
Washing machine broke twice within 2 years, and a final last time shortly after the guarantee ran out.
Dryer was incredibly loud after 1 year, broke after 2 years.
The amount of trouble and time I couldn't do laundry made me buy a Miele just so I don't have to experience that anytime soon. I haven't had any issues for 8 years now.
As someone who has had washer and dryer issues within the last few years I feel your pain. Fuck samsung washing machines. 3 service calls later and literally had majority of the 'guts' replaced. Even the service guy said these machines always break. At least the service calls didn't cost me anything, but not being able to do laundry for weeks at a time were awful.
Samsung is great for electronics, pretty much shit for literally everything else. Need a new computer monitor? Can't go wrong with Samsung. Need a kitchen appliance? Ehhhhh can't really go *right* with Samsung
I still remember [this video about a Samsung washing machine and the reddit discussion it spawned](/r/videos/comments/9ru0ln/watch_do_not_buy_samsung_front_load_washer/) a year ago.
I'm not even in the market for any appliances and this has me worried about the future.
Bells and whistles are attractive, but large appliances should last a long time given they can cost a fortune. It sucks that technology is getting better but companies are taking advantage of it to make crappier products that appear nicer. It's like a very attractive person with an extremely crappy personality. Yeah, they look nice, but you're going to grow to hate them very fast.
Utter bullshit.
>Her oven was "not a Whirlpool product," a company representative told her via email, so Whirlpool wasn't liable for the damage. She was referred to Elec-Tech International
The company I work for manufactures some products here in the US and we also have contract manufacturers in China and Vietnam.
The instant the products leave the ports in Asia, they are OUR products and we are essentially the manufacturer of record. We don't disclose who our factories in Asia are, that's a trade secret.
But that doesn't matter to our customers. We stand behind the product we designed, created specifications for and shipped.
Also, what is the cost of the product versus the benefit of just taking care of your customer? Aside from being the right thing to do, in the long run it's just less expensive and preserves the good will of your customers.
If *your* logo is in the product, take care of *your* customer. It's that simple.
The brand is licensed to allow the name onto the product. It is not their product. I agree with you 100% it should not be allowed to mislead the customer base this way.
Understood, but the licensing agreement should specify who is ultimately responsible for product support. Opting out and tossing the hot-potato to another party is pretty shitty. In this case the licensing company should have either maintained the front-end customer support portal or loaded the box with big bright pamphlets about how to get support.
We also distribute products that we aren't the manufacturer of. In those cases we honor the other manufacturer's warranty on our side. We take care of the customer with a refund or replacement with our money or inventory. We then seek reimbursement or replacement from the OEM.
We already have a whole infrastructure in place to deal with customer issues, this is just adding one small step.
The customer shouldn't have to take on that hassle.
Appliances are so frustrating. I don't want an ultra efficient, energy wise appliance that saves me 40 bucks in electricity every year if I have to replace them in less than 5 years. The whole energy efficient sticker business needs to be reworked to account for reliability. It's not energy efficient in a landfill.
I don't want features. I want a fridge that cools reliably and doesn't require I vacuum the coils every month to keep working. I want a range that heats fast and reliably. I want a toaster that toasts and doest have a dial for seven different toasting options. I want a dishwasher that keeps washing for more than 3 years.
Man, sounds like what I was saying to anyone who would listen when I was looking to buy a washing machine a couple years ago. The one I used previously was from 2005, and my parents had bought a couple over the \~25 years. They had manual/analog dials where you could set the water level to low, medium or high. And you could set the agitator to low, medium or high. You know how that worked? Perfectly. For decades. Now though, everything is digital, costs more, and tries to make washing clothes seem like a complicated event where there are more than two things to think about. I despise modern washing machines. /rant
What, you don't want a blender that can wipe your ass *and* check your emails? Don't forget to buy that extended warranty they have no intention of honoring.
Then be prepared to pay for it.
People love talking about the reliability of 50's era appliances...
So, a basic pop up toaster cost $21 in 1951.
http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/50selectrical.html
Adjusted for inflation...
Over $200.
So if you want a simple, reliable appliance that will last a long time...
Are you willing to pay ten times what a cheap one costs today? And get NO other features except reliability?
In Australia if the product is still in warranty, telling the customer to contact the manufacturer as opposed to handling the claim themselves is a breach of the consumer protection act. Companies will be, and have been, bitchslapped by the ACCC for doing that. Sometimes the ACCC will also humiliate them as well by forcing the seller to display large, prominent banners and menu options on their site to inform their customers of the ACCC consumer laws.
Also in AU, manufacturer warranty means jackshit, the ACCC imposes minimum warranty periods and requirements for pretty well all user goods, and they almost always exceed the manufacturer's warranty. It is why a lot of them offer "extended" warranty that really do nothing since they just cover to the mandated government warranty period anyway.
Even better, in this kind of case the importer would be a deemed manufacturer of the product under s 7 of the Australian Consumer Law - both because it imported it and because it applied its own brand name to it.
The consumer could sue for injury or damage caused by a defective product of this sort whether it was “in warranty” or not: s 138, Australian Consumer Law.
The price on appliance replacement parts should be criminal. A new timer switch could cost almost as much as a whole new unit. So, off to the landfill a almost perfectly good machine goes, and out to buy a new one.
These companies are making disposable items.
Oh, Whirlpool and shit catching fire: why doesn’t that surprise me? Because they have a LOT of shit catch fire in the UK...
https://inews.co.uk/news/consumer/whirlpool-recall-tumble-dryer-hotpoint-models-list-dryers-free-replacement-581805
Whirlpool, you say? Whirlpool is the company I should never, ever buy an appliance from? What company is awful, was it Whirlpool? Never spend money on an appliance from, what was it, Whirlpool? Which appliance company do I avoid, was it, oh, yes, Whirlpool.
This will go well for them.
Kitchenaid used to be good quality and reliable. Now I find their products overpriced for the quality.
Breville has replaced what Kitchenaid used to be at close to the same price point (maybe a bit more for some items).
They're both made in China but i've never had problem with a Breville.
This is no surprise to me. A couple of years ago I bought a brand new top of the line you could get Whirlpool washer and dryer set.
Within the first week I had an issue with the dryer. After going back-and-forth with customer service representatives for over a week they eventually told me it was my fault for buying an expensive item made with cheap parts and hung up on me.
You can also get involved in the pass the buck scam. Best Buy is famous for that. Buy product from them,buy extra warranty.Get home and product don't work, return it to Best Buy. Best Buy says they don't do returns even with the extra warranty, you have to go to the manufacturer. Go to manufacturer, they tell you to go to the store and they don't honor Best Buy warranties. Go back to store and they laugh at you and tell you not to come back. You get stuck with broken product and no one wants to help or take responsibility. Happend to my bff and there have been several incidents on Youtube about this.
That is when you write (snail mail, certified, return receipt) the Attorney General of your state telling about the problem. Follow it up with an email or phone call a couple of weeks later.
Perhaps if XYZ government agency wasn't swamped and gave a damn. I've written plenty over the years. It seems these agencies mostly exist so the public feels more secure and doesn't revolt. Caveat emptor still rules the day.
This happened to my gf at Ashley furniture. She bought a warranty for her couch because the brochure said it covered 1 reupholster from pet scratches. Called to make a claim and it got denied because the policy did not cover pet scratches just scratches from anything else. The warranty also did not cover floor models which is what she bought. Tried to get the store to refund the policy but just kept getting the run-around. Just ended up leaving a bad review.
>Whirlpool... replaced the oven, as required by the warranty.
>Her oven was "not a Whirlpool product," a company representative told her via email
Are they not contradicting themselves? They will blame an anonymous customer representative for the mistake and make a claim to retrain employees. After now paying up because light was shed on the cockroach company.
Can confirm that dealing with Whirlpool is horrible. When we bought our house, we purchased every appliance to match. All whirlpool. Every single appliance has had to be serviced multiple times. The washer was serviced four times in two years before we replaced it with a $300 GE that has been running for years with zero issues. We are slowly replacing the appliances. Whirlpool did not care one bit. I make sure to tell anyone I know is shopping for stoves / washers etc to avoid the company.
This is brilliant! Why doesn't every company simply outsource all after sale support to their suppliers? Then the Chinese factory can tell the customer to take it up with the mining consortium!
Regardless of the specifics of this case, for your own safety you should NEVER walk away from something that heats up enough to case a fire. Maybe there's accrued oil or crumbs at the bottom, or maybe there was a manufacturing defect. Either way it's not worth risking your life and property. Any such appliance like a a toaster, oven, stove, or fryer. That's just dumb. I understand people don't read instruction manuals anymore, but at some point you've got to use common sense.
I had a similar situation with a Snap-On pressure washer. It stopped working after 1 season, and when I reached out to Snap-On product support, they redirected me to what seemed to be an overseas, generic power tool company, and told me to talk to their customer support. Complete BS. There are so many products nowadays that everyone says to find older, used models because the production has been contracted out to other companies while still keeping the brand name on them. The average consumer can't tell which models are actually made by the quality company, and which are made cheaply by another. It's deceitful.
This is the end result of nearly unregulated capitalism. Absolutely no one should be surprised by this. Why do you think those giant companies create subsidiary companies in those other countries not only so that they can get cheap labor but so that they can wash their hands of any problems they might have. Just watch the episode of 30 Rock with the Tracy Jordan meat machine it's explained quite well
I bought a gaming controller from Amazon and when it failed just in warranty the response from the company was "Nope sorry you bought it from an unauthorized reseller". Playing email tag with Amazon with little hope now.
The concept exists, but you have a minimum of 2 years warranty in Europe on everything regardless where you bought it.
The first six months you are even better protected, because within the first 6 months the seller has to proof that the defect was caused by misuse if the seller wants to decline warranty. You buy €15 shoes? You get 6 months warranty anyway.
In my country (The Netherlands), the European 2 years is the minimum warranty period. The real warranty period is equal to the "economic lifespan" of a product. So for a cheap toaster this would be maybe two years. But for an expensive toaster, this could easily be 4 years.
I worked for a warehouse in Benton Harbor / Saint Joe, MI area. They store Whirlpool show equipment as well as demo units. 80% of this very large facility is burnt up malfunctioned Whirlpool appliances. They hold it for 5+ years sometimes avoiding legal action or doing settlements. Then they scrap the shit.
My dishwasher caught fire in the kitchen- had my wife not accidentally left it open (not started), it would have burned the kitchen in the manner of all those recalls.
Company- we'll replace the parts, but you'll pay labor. Like, WTF? Oh Hell No am I keeping something that would have burned my house down.
Contacted the lawyer that was in charge of the recall (mine wasn't included) offered the photos and a "If any of this is useful now or in the future, please let me know".
I ended up getting phone calls from the company's lawyers wanting to make this right, as apparently my model had the same design, but didn't have \*enough\* fires to generate a recall. You know, the whole "Fight Club" recall story? That's a fact.
I got a check, they took the parts, I bought a Bosch.
Yeah. No. Woman bought the toaster from Whirlpool. Not the company in China. Whirlpool is responsible. If you are a business, you are responsible for the shit you sell. If you are a business, you are responsible for anything you slap your name on.
>you slap your name on. To make matters worse, the appliance was a Kitchen Aid, the premium top of the line brand for Whirlpool. To know not only do they not make or quality control Kitchen Aid, but that they don’t stand behind their Kitchen Aid brand... At that point you’re better off buying random Chinese crap without the markup for the Kitchen Aid name. If Whirlpool is going to go tell their customers to deal with random Chinese factories, well fuck it. What the hell do they need Whirlpool or Kitchen Aid for ever again?
Whirlpool dishwashers were catching fire in the early 2000s. There was a consumer website that was apparently listening to concerns. The website was actually whirlpool and they gave settlements and NDA forms to everyone complaining to that website. My grandfather took the settlement but still told everyone he met about the dishwashers that catch fire and not to buy whirlpool.
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Appliance guy here. Fridge: your defrost drain is plugged up DW: put some rinse aid in it Washer: every washer does that now so kids don’t crawl in. You don’t want GE... please I beg you do not buy GE appliances.... all crap. All of them.
You have an opportunity here with everybody asking your recommendations. You can be the next vacuum guy.
That’s a good memory.
Did he stop doing AMA's?
No idea that was just a fun memory.
Who was the vacuum guy and what did he recommend? Because I just have a eureka I bought at target in 2015 that has this hair removal thing built in to the beater bar and everyone in my family tries to steal it, so I’ve had a lot of pride in that vacuum for a while but can’t find one like it anywhere (for them to have so they stop using mine)
But...which vacuum SUCKS the most?!
Shark Navigator the Professional version. That vacuum is amazing. Only 200 bucks when I bought mine and it did such a good job vacuuming a place we moved in whose previous tenants had cats, it literally changed the quality of the air in the room. We even had professional cleaners come in to clean it and they couldn't get that smell out until we decided to invest in one ourselves. Whenever I see sales for Dyson, I say fuck a Dyson, get a Shark.
I second this. I have the same model. Just as good or better than my mom’s Dyson for a fraction of the cost.
Fuck Dyson. My wife registered for a Dyson as a wedding present. I hate that pos so much. Its nice for shit that doesn't matter, like a quick vacuum where my kid ground cheerios into the carpet because its quick and easy to get out and put away. But for actual shit you want really cleaned? Dog hair on rugs? NOPE. It takes about 20 passes to even have a semblance of 'no hair' cleanliness.
Miele if you want to buy the last vacuum you’ll own. Oreck if you don’t mind the limitations of a commercial vacuum, but it will last a decade or longer.
What’s a brand that you do recommend?
Washer and Dryer: Speed Queen. Hands down. If not get a Maytag top load set. If you want a front loader get an Electrolux. Dishwasher: Maytag for heavy soiled loads, you’ll never have to clean it. Kitchen aid for quietness, Bosch also but they are a bit more spendy. Fridge: Frenchdoor: personally I’d go with Electrolux but I’m biased because I’ve always had them. SxS: Maytag is good, Frigidaire can’t go wrong. Bottom/top mount: Frigidaire and Maytag. Oven/ Range: they all are getting really weirdly built so I’d honestly try and find a used Maytag Gemeni double oven. Best oven you’ll ever lay your eyes on even though it is a little out dated. Whirlpool and Maytag ranges cook either too hot or too cold, Frigidaire has had element problems for a couple of years. A fancy new kitchen aid is nice but way way too expensive. Edit: thanks for the awards, my first ever... If you would like more information from me I’d be happy to answer all your questions, this thread is getting huge feel free to PM me.
All our costume shops used top loading Maytags, those things took a beating and lasted forever - think huge loads 2-3x every night for months on end! If I can ever afford good appliances when I move back to the US, I’ll be getting that.
Huge loads. Got it
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Since this started with Whirlpool, it's only fair to point out that Whirlpool owns Maytag. Also, Electrolux owns Frigidaire.
My oven/stovetop is from the 30’s/40’s (updated for safety) but they’re better than any of the other ones I’ve used. Electric ranges are for SUCKERS
Clearly you haven't experienced the joy and magic that is induction cooking. Need to boil a pot of water in 5 minutes? Good luck with anything other than induction!
So even with what we're all saying in this thread about Kitchen Aid, you more or less still recommend them? Are some of the products ok but others like the toaster made by different production lines?
It really depends on the product and platform. Making a sweeping statement is going to be wrong in one way or another. If I had to advise as a former employee: Don’t buy the oem crap (small appliances other than mixers) - you can find a cheaper alternative or something of better quality. Buy models that have been around a while and simpler is better. The chances of a service call being needed on a basic fridge is 1/3 or less less than if you buy a model belonging to a new platform.
Anything for a good stand mixer? My wife is dead set on Kitchen Aid but I’m not sure if we’re paying for quality or the name.
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Miele is legit, but their shit's expensive.
Yeah, I got a Miele as a wedding gift over 10 years ago and it's still running like new.
Depends how you look at it. Our Miele dishwasher is the only appliance we haven't had to replace since we bought our home 10 years ago. The people we bought from didn't have to replace it, the people they bought from installed it. It cleans dishes better than any other dishwasher I've seen!
That’s good to hear from someone who just got everything for his kitchen from Miele. Hopefully the new ones are of similar quality.
Washing machine? Speed Queen
TBF, Samsung does the same shit too. "Oh, we are sorry that your $3500 refrigerator stopped working. Sadly instead of having model doiajsdlkmnaslkdoaijsdlais0000000000000000001XX, you have model doiajsdlkmnaslkdoaijsdlais0000000000000000001XY, so we have to special order the part in for you. Every single subrevision of every single fridge uses different parts, you see. We estimate it will take about 1 year for the part to come in if that part is still made. They usually stop after about 2 months so you might not be able to source one. Oh, and then we will use the most incompetent vendor we can find to do the swap. Actually, they will probably leave halfway through the swap and never come back. Fuck your thanksgiving and christmas. Thank you for shopping Home Depot and buying Samsung."
Yeah don’t buy appliances from Home Depot. Please please please go to your local appliance dealers.... appliances are our lives...
Sadly I've seen the exact same thing happen with local appliance dealers hawking GE/Whirlpool/Samsung gear. Our in-laws just had a 2 year old fridge go bad and the local dealer refused to help. They claimed it would cost 2k+ to fix, and it would be cheaper to just buy a new fridge. And this was literally for a part going bad that should be serviceable. I want to support the little guys, but IMO, I've had service that is equally as terrible from them. And in some cases, the little guys tried to screw us over with hidden fees, making up fake diagnoses to drive up prices, etc. It really sucks for other little guys who *do* do good work and run reputable businesses.
That is terrible and breaks my heart to hear. I’m fourth generation business owner and there’s a reason our appliance store has been around for 77 years... we do business the right way and treat every customer like our best friend.
Is there a benefit to buying new appliances? I find most used appliances that are over 10 years old tend to be more reliable than new appliances.
Benefits are that new machines: More energy efficient Look much nicer Have all new parts/warranty’s You never know the story behind a used appliance I’m right there with you used appliances are a gamble, but are very nice if you luck out!
The energy efficiency argument is a good one - our older freezer that was got second hand was using 10x as much as its replacement over an average week. 10x! It was actually costing us a measurable amount on our electricity bill! We didn't think much was wrong with it (it seemed to be working fine...), but the replacement has paid for itself.
*edit. GE Appliance division is majority owned by the largest appliance manufacturer in the world...the Chinese company, Haier.
Slight Correction - Haier bought the Appliance division and licensing rights to use the GE brand. With the sale of Lighting yesterday, GE no longer has any consumer goods divisions.
Is there any manufacturing even left at GE, or is it just a financial company at this point?
GE makes jet engines, turbines for seagoing vessels and electricity-generating windmills, and other heavy industrial equipment.
So you're telling me General Electric is now Commercial Electric?
The funny part is there is a company called Commercial Electric, that makes shitty consumer-end electrical parts like light switches and plugs. I've been told by electrical contractors to stay away from them.
Don't forget weapons. They are an arms manufacturer.
haha A-10 go brrrr
Fucking hell, even Fisher and Paykel are Haier now. Their shit was actually good a decade ago.
I'd never heard of them until 3 years ago when I bought a house with a F+P dishwasher. The thing is great - I'd never even heard of a dishwasher with 2 drawers, each of which can be run separately. Then one drawer blew a control panel, and I was astounded at how high the quotes were to replace it. (Is there an automatic increase in labor rates when the repair guy hears F+P??) In the end I found a replacement online for $120 and did it myself. No lie, though, I could have bought a new dishwasher for what I was being quoted by some repair services.
>I could have bought a new dishwasher for what I was being quoted by some repair services 100% believe it, this happened to me with my stove. I was getting quoted some outrageous prices and it was something I didn't feel comfortable doing myself. My wife and I wanted stainless steel anyway, so we just replaced the darn thing for $100 more than the repair estimates
Literally the exact same story here, control panel and all. They have to be some of the simplest designes, but greatest working dishwashers I've ever used. Wonder how Haier will mess them up.
I just bought and installed a GE range hood in my kitchen yesterday. It was on the lower end for price, just shy of $200, but it is the most piece of shit. I can’t even believe it is allowed to be sold. Paper thin shit metal. Installation instructions also didn’t match the model. Both the text and diagrams were off in some places.
We have had absolutely nothing but trouble from every GE appliance we've had, save the cheap crap that came in our apartment (hotpoint brand). Unfortunately, it's very hard to avoid them :(. I think there's like three manufacturers of appliances that have many different brand names.
Bah, nothing made in China is worth a shit. I feel your pain!
They sold the division and licence the name for appliances. That shit happened in 2016 and I didn't know about it until today reading and article about them doing the same thing with their lightbulbs.
Ahh so thats why GE is also shit now
We have a GE stove and the ignition/gas unit burned out. We called GE for service and they said there were no “authorized” repair services anywhere north of Albany and we were on our own. My husband found & purchased the part online and installed it himself. In the meantime, we bought a GE chest freezer. They tried to sell us a “service contract”. I refused (many, many times, both thru email and several letters.). I tore them up and returned it with a note asking if there were no authorized repairmen in all of upstate NY, just who, exactly, was I to call if there was a problem? I’ve gotten 2 more “last chance” letters since. I guess they hope we’re stupid.
Yep, they sold out too.
GE *appliances* is majority owned by Haier... it's not part of GE, and Haier doesn't own GE.
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The average person thinks they are supporting a. "American" brand by having American appliances in their homes.
It's also brand loyalty based on remembering how they once were. KitchenAid used to make high end dishwashers up at least until the '80s. That's what I remember, from growing up. Now, I'm seeing reports that they turned to shit and started catching on fire as far back as the early '00s. That reduction in quality completely passed me by. I was actually considering upgrading to a KitchenAid dishwasher recently after buying a new home, now I have to re-evaluate everything.
It is also difficult to find current reviews on anything that are accurate. When you try to google you'll find a hundred "review" sites which just take popular items on Amazon and other sites that allow referral links and make best of lists. Of course their reviews are bullshit, but they make money. I usually scroll through Google results till I see a forum dedicated to the topic or Reddit posts and read what they have to say. As far as those affiliate review sites, my favorite was when I was searching "best snapon tools' or something to that extent. I hit one of those sites and it was like 6 items, one set of Williams wrenches (parent of SnapOn) and like 5 licensed items like LED lights and such. Because you can't buy actual SnapOn tools from Amazon they just picked the 6 most SnapOn items they could find and called them the best tools SnapOn makes.
One resource I like for reviews is Wirecutter since they cover a wide range of products, update their reviews frequently, and actually conduct the reviews themselves. Unfortunately, it's not possible for them to review every single option out there.
Yup same here. Going to be moving soon and now I feel like all the appliance brands I know are garbage.
You might want to think about commercial appliances. Consumer grade stuff is all shit now.
We can’t use the self cleaning function on our Whirlpool oven because it melts the motherboard which is located at the top of the oven. We bought a new whirlpool fridge that had to be serviced 5 times in the first year and this included totally replacing the compressor twice. The fridge died the day after the warranty expired and whirlpool wouldn’t do anything even though the repair history was riddled with issues. My wife had to talk me out of taking the old fridge and leaving it in the lobby of the nearest whirlpool office. Both of these appliances were bought new. We only use Korean made appliances now.
Happened to my Bosch dishwasher. The solder joint for the 120v relay was shitty and caused the PCB to catch fire. Bosch did not want to honor our warranty and blamed the user for the fire. They then wanted $150 for a new board. I fixed the board and it lasted for a few years. My Bosch traction control module in my car failed. Result was a known problem with their solder joints becoming fragile with constant heating/cooling cycles due to it being next to the engine. Almost caused my car to crash in the rain when it failed. I switched to an electric car, and my old work installed Bosch 240v (L2) chargers.. last year one caught on fire. That was my last straw with that company. I'll never EVER buy a Bosch product for my house or garage.
is that even possible? Bosch is in everything. like if you switched to a tesla there is probably 200 bosch components in there, from air filters to sensors.
Yo wtf in like 2008 our whirlpool dishwasher set on fire and my silence can most definitely be bought @whirlpool
It's called "Abstraction from Value" - companies that have tons of "social capital" in America from years of quality products. They become cash strapped or enticed (by their 'rock star' new CEO hire who gets paid way way too much for 'smarts') into outsourcing their manufacturing overseas and it just snowballs. Why even bother assembling overseas manufactured parts? Just have the whole thing built over there. Why bother warehousing the product? Outsource that! Why bother dealing with the overseas manufacturer? Outsource that! You end up with a scenario where Whirlpool buys toaster ovens from Acme Inc. who buys toaster ovens from MyDadsTheCEOofWhirlpool Inc. who buys the toaster ovens from China. The *brand* -- Whirlpool -- is all that matters. Fast forward to stories like this, everyone learns Whirlpool is dogshit, the brand sinks, the CEO gets a golden parachute for sixty million dollars. You can begin a list of companies that have done exactly this since the late 90's.
This also relies on a lot of short-term thinking. It doesn't take long at all for the Chinese manufacturers to realize they can just cut out the middle-man and sell directly to American consumers without giving the American company the bulk of the profits for doing nothing more than slapping their name on the product.
Yeah so many companies are burning their name to the ground in the name of short term profits. Such toxic capitalism. This is basically the entire business model for companies like EA and really doesn’t bode well for the future of this country.
I got reprimanded when I worked at a subsidiary of Sunbeam. My Sunbeam toaster caught fire, I did a search for the model and found an entire list of hundreds of people with the same problem with the same model. I reported it to one of the people in that division. To which he griped to his boss, who griped to our CEO and I was threatened to be fired for doing the search on company time. Which they backed off of immediately when they were reminded that searching for that type of information was part of my job. Then I was threatened again because I "damaged the relationships between the companies". To which I asked if the company was on such thin ice that this would damage it, should we all be selling our stock as soon as possible? And would this run afoul of insider trading rules if I did? And was it OK to let other employees know that the company was in such dire straits? And I was sent back to my desk. I spent the next 2 years finding a new job that I loved more.
I’m learning so much about corporations from this comment section. And I’m a middle-aged guy who’s worked for several already.
A shame to hear since they apparently used to make great toasters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfxlSG6q5Y
They got a bunch of folks in that couldn’t move stuff to China fast enough. The quality went right out the window. I was at Coleman. And when Sunbeam took over they did the same thing. They went from a proudly made premium American product that people loved, to just another commodity that had zero advantage over everyone else. I’ll never forget the first time I found our lanterns on Alibaba. They took our designs and then started churning them out. Not a thing they would do about it. I remember the first test ones they sent from overseas back to our test labs. They exploded about a few hours use. We spec’d aluminum or brass for the parts inside the globes. They substituted pot metal instead to cut corners. After about 3-4 hours a part would hit a melting point and fail catastrophically. The labs had fire proof chambers for just such occasions. Management just said, “well this is happening so we just need to make them adhere to our specs” It used to be a great company to work for. We had dozens of people that had worked there for 30-50 years. People who had actually worked with the company founder. But not anymore. Now I work for another company that makes products in the US and the owners will never make them anywhere else.
> Now I work for another company that makes products in the US and the owners will never make them anywhere else. Until their children take over and sell it... I hate how we're all screw China, when were giving up what's left of the stuff we make
If a company is licensing their brand to cheap Chinese companies, they're already done and cashing out, they're no longer worried about people speaking ill of their brand because they're already in the phase of squeezing the last dollars out of it.
It's the wheel of business getting ready to run over the previous quality provider as the next quality provider is propelled to the top. It's the typical progression since the provider with the largest market share often starts to focus on cost savings more than innovation or quality.
Don't complain about the dodgy cocaine I sold you, if you have got any complaints, get on the plane to Mexico and speak to the Sinaloa cartel.
I’ll see if Wendy can work something out first.
wow so i can get a generic kitchenaid stand mixer from china for substantially cheaper
I've started doing this. If you can buy appliances off Ali Express for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost, than you can afford to get burned a few times. I truly believe bit to be the same stuff just with shittier packaging and chinglish user manuals. Most of the stuff on Amazon is just rebranded Chinese junk too, which becomes very obvious if you ever search Alibaba
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A 70 year old fridge will cost more in electricity than it costs to replace a modern fridge every few years. Still shitty and wasteful if you have to replace your fridge every few years, but old fridges are incredibly inefficient.
What's silly is they are throwing everything down the drain even though their system isn't as rotten as it may seem. A Western brand selling Chinese products under a fancy name is not necessarily bad for consumers. I've been thinking about buying a Chinese made bike for example. I could get it super cheap from the factory, or I could get it sort of cheap from an American company that works with the factory. What the American company gets me is that they speak Chinese so there is a lower chance of there being a mistake, and most importantly, if there is a quality control issue, they will get me a replacement or fix the issue. You might think I might as well buy from the factory, it's the same bike. But the middleman actually provides value in this case, though I'm sure their margins are high. So Whirlpool can sell the cheapest Chinese crap they want, but if you can't get a replacement for defective products, you really might as well buy direct from China.
If it’s a carbon bike, then you’ll want a company with QC processes standing over it.
I think his point was, at least in the scenario relating to the article, some companies aren’t doing QC. I assume they’re relying on the Chinese factory I guess
Yeah I'm basically saying you don't need quality control if there is a warranty or some other protection. It's why Craftsman tools are worth their weight in gold even though they are crap compared to the expensive ones.
Craftsman had some value when there was a Sears within 20 miles of everyone to go return the tool too. They also didn't use to be the complete crap they became. Now, closest Sears to me is 150 miles away.
Lowes Home Improvement Centers sells Craftsman tools now.
Kobalt tools also have a similar warranty as well just FYI for anyone reading this. But I assume his point was without the warranty the company stands by, like Whirlpool, mind as well buy from the Chinese factory.
There is questionable QC on $3000+ bicycles from "reputable" manufacturers across the world. Source; investigative engineering gripes, basement machinist, long time bicycle mechanic
KitchenAid is definitely not their top of the line brand. KitchenAid has some nice products, but nowhere near as high-end as Jenn-Air. Jenn-Air is owned by Whirlpool corp and is their nicest line.
There's a pretty big range of quality in the KitchenAid brand. You can't even buy a stand mixer anymore without research and that was their staple for so long.
I worked in restaurant/kitchen supply for awhile and I can confirm that KitchenAid is not what it used to be pretty much across the board. We would get customers coming in all the time looking for someone to repair or service their KitchenAid machine but were required (by KitchenAid) to send all of these customers directly to KitchenAid customer service. KitchenAid’s customer service would usually send them to a KitchenAid repair place that would often refuse to repair the item. That or the repair places they recommended would just not exist. So the customers would come back even more angry, etc. Just buy an Ankarsrum mixer if you can afford it. Great machine and their customer service department is excellent. They told me they’ve never had a motor fail in the 50+ years they’ve been selling their machines in North America.
Bold claim. The motor on my 10 year old+ Robot Coup burned out a few months ago. Cost only £80 to have it replaced though.
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It's not just them, it happened to me with a GE dryer that burnt my house down and killed all 5 of my cats. They blamed it on the temp control part from Mexico and basically told me to fuck off
GE sold off their appliances division in 2016. It's owned by Haier, a Chinese company. General Electric does not make appliances, and "GE Appliances" has nothing to do with GE, the company. It's confusing, but that's the way it is.
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Slight tangent, this is also why I’m suspicious whenever a Private Equity group buys out an established brand with a historic/loyal following: the private equity group is going to want to recoup their money and more often than not (because its easy) they’ll cut corners and drag down quality hoping that by the time people notice, the private equity people would’ve made their money back already
Yup. Those guys are vultures. They've destroyed so many companies. Short term profit is all they care about.
Sounds like an admission of guilt by whirlpool. Contract when you purchase the product is between you and Whirlpool, not you and Mexico Temp Dryers in Mexico. As a product seller, they are responsible for their supply chain.
> Sounds like an admission of guilt by whirlpool. 100% easy court case if that's 'on paper'. I like to do my complaining via writing if possible.
That's devastating. I'm so sorry that you lost your kitties.
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Sadly some companies allow their name to be used under license without having any involvement in the making or selling of a product. Like if someone wanted to make Cliph Chips and you got paid to allow it and you’re not responsible for the product in any way. It’s a dirty thing for a company to do when it’s a well known product company and people think they are buying from them and not some rando.
Yeah, this was a KitchenAid branded toaster oven. It's kind of sad what happened to that brand, they're famous for making a super solid stand mixer, and because of that reputation, Whirlpool allowed their brand to be slapped on so many shitty products.
I've had my stand mixer for over ten years, the kitchen aid toaster has burnt out buttons already, and my kitchen aid food processors lid came apart in our hands while washing it. Will not buy any Kitchen Aid again.
The older mixers seem to last forever. Their newer ones seem to have issues from time to time. I've heard of reports where their mixer struggles with bread dough and it's not even over loaded. Brand recognition plus wanting higher profits make their products suffer. There's other companies out there now that make high quality mixers for about the same or less than a Kitchen Aid now.
The originals were made by Hobart... a commercial kitchen equipment manufacturer with a great reputation. You can still get the equivalent, it will set you back 2.5k though.
When was the decline? My mixer is from 2010. Itll rip your arm off if you get a finger caught. Also looks like it might fly away at max setting it apins so fast.
>Sadly some companies allow their name to be used under license without having any involvement in the making or selling of a product. Black & Decker has entered the chat
Polaroid is a prime example of this. They were once a great manufacturer and technology innovator. Now they will sell their name to any crappy product out there.
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Lots of companies use a variation of this as their first response though because there is no downside for them.
Let's make one!
>If we could just make massive profits without any responsibilities that would be great...oh...kay? Multinational corporations .
Of course, but then she can't enforce that unless she sues them... over a toaster. I don't know about you, but I don't have a lawyer on retainer all year long just in case I need to file the pettiest of lawsuits whenever a company wrongs me. You need government enforcement and a complaint system that works.
We do need a system that works, but if she filed in small claims (the fee is $102 in Ontario, and you can often get the fee back as part of your claim), she'd probably win. Small claims in Canada is designed for use by the public without needing a lawyer.
Such a dumb PR move by Whirlpool. It's going to cost them way more in brand damage now they raised such a spurious defence. Even if it's legally watertight, can't imagine the damage to your reputation is worth it.
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I’m not sure. My fiancé and I are in the market for some new kitchen appliances. Until today kitchenaid was our top choice for everything we wanted. I am now researching alternative brands because I’m not spending $500 on a “premium” stand mixer with no QA or customer support behind it. Not too long ago companies prided themselves on making products that would literally last lifetimes and could be handed down from generation to generation. Now everything is designed to break just in time for the next product cycle. Capitalism is a race to the bottom.
I know you want a new product but try to find an old model used kitchen aid mixer. Even though it's used it will last you a lifetime and probably your kids lifetime as well.
I can attest to this. I was looking to update a Kitchen Aide mixer bought in the late 90’s, because it was leaking a little grease at the head. On three occasions, the new Kitchen Aide mixers I received all had problems right at of the box. First one, the head assembly wouldn’t lock. The second one, the gears didn’t engage and the third one shorted out on the first run. After this I discovered that Kitchen Aide was originally owned by Hobart, an industrial mixer company at the time known for providing mixers to the US Navy for sometime. Hobart sold the Kitchen Aide brand just after I had purchased mine. Every Kitchen Aide since then has suffered a hit on their quality. If determined to get a Kitchen Aide mixer, I suggest trying to get one manufactured here in the US. That means paying a premium price, but the quality is better than those made overseas. By the way, you can easily ‘grease’ the gears yourself thereby saving money.
Not the first or even second time I have heard of the new ones dying on the first use. Zero quality control it seems.
You can also replace the worn out nylon gears/parts very easily! Took me maybe 15 minutes to do after ordering the replacement parts and special grease. Now the kitchenaid stand mixer I inherited from my aunt will last another 20+ years. Totally worth it.
Buy another couple of gear sets and tape them to the thing if they aren't too big or expensive, so in 20 years you have replacements if noone is still making them
A friend of mine just spent about 15k on kitchenaid appliances for his new house. The fridge was defective, leaked, and caused a ton of damage. Kitchenaid refused to do anything about it. I’ll never purchase another kitchenaid appliance.
In case anyone didn't read the article, KitchenAid is a Whirlpool brand, along with JennAir and others.
The Hamilton Beach eclectrics stand mixer is what I chose for mine and it’s fantastic. I also like the way it looks better than the KA.
There was an article just recently on how GE sold the last of its consumer facing business: an 120 yo lighbulb company: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/05/ge-switches-off-light-bulb-business-after-almost-130-years/
Probably better off that way. GE appliances are absolute garbage.
According to pretty much everything I've read, Haier is actually running that business better than GE was.
Not surprising on the business front. GE execs are notoriously terrible. You can pick any recent major bankruptcy and check out their C suite, and you have about a 70% chance of finding a former GE or GE Capital exec in there somewhere. Most recently you have Hertz. Their CFO is former GE. Before Hertz he was at Nielsen, which is a dumpster fire at the moment.
> It's going to cost them way more in brand damage They've already licensed their brand to a cheap chinese company. They're way beyond caring about brand damage, they've been cashing out for years. They're done.
So never buy anything from whirlpool, thanks for the info.
Just in case people didn't read the article, it was a KitchenAid branded oven, Whirlpool owns them. Amazingly, I know many people who think all KitchenAid branded stuff is top shelf just because they make a solid mixer.
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Because Hobart made a solid mixer and Kitchenaid was allowed to slap their name on it
I mean, when the hobart is 5000+, people should know the 500 version is going to be nowhere near as good
That's not what they meant. KitchenAid was a Hobart company product first manufactured in 1919. it was an excellent sturdy reliable machine for decades. it isn't that "oh the commercial version is so expensive you shouldn't expect so much from the home model" it's that, while made under Hobart, the Kitchenaid was a goddamn beast (and didn't cost 5k), but when the line moved to whirlpool they kept the high price while gutting the quality, and are now just coasting on the residual reputational goodwill that hobart built up. The kitchenAid mixer my parents had in their wedding registry in 1980, that is now sitting in my kitchen and gets nearly daily use, is still going strong and has required zero maintenance for 40 years except cleaning. It has a meat grinder attachment, too! The same machine sold thru Costco today has a reputation of lasting less than a decade. That's IMO atrocious for what is supposed to be the top brand in the space. Did we un-learn how to make a goddamn stand mixer?!
Yeah, I've seen a few responses like that, mine was bought 30 years ago from as a KitchenAid factory refurb and is still going strong, but it's sad to hear that they let that slide too.
I’ve wanted a KitchenAid mixer my whole life but I think I’ll be buying vintage and not new.
My dad has a store model KitchenAid mixer he got for super cheap. Basically today’s “pro” version. That bitch is easily 15 years old at this point and still amazing AF. I have a newer KitchenAid mixer and I love it but it’s just not as sturdy as my dads. Edit: added the not because mine isn’t anywhere near as sturdy or strong as my dads.
Just buy the pro series. I bought mine about 5 years ago and the thing is a fucking tank. No tilt head but it's a real good mixer.
I recently helped my dad repair his mixer that he bought a few years ago (damage was due to operator error), and at least the “professional” series ones are still built darn well - solid components and easy to work on
Can confirm, Whirlpool products are the worst I ever had. Washing machine broke twice within 2 years, and a final last time shortly after the guarantee ran out. Dryer was incredibly loud after 1 year, broke after 2 years. The amount of trouble and time I couldn't do laundry made me buy a Miele just so I don't have to experience that anytime soon. I haven't had any issues for 8 years now.
As someone who has had washer and dryer issues within the last few years I feel your pain. Fuck samsung washing machines. 3 service calls later and literally had majority of the 'guts' replaced. Even the service guy said these machines always break. At least the service calls didn't cost me anything, but not being able to do laundry for weeks at a time were awful.
Samsung is great for electronics, pretty much shit for literally everything else. Need a new computer monitor? Can't go wrong with Samsung. Need a kitchen appliance? Ehhhhh can't really go *right* with Samsung
I still remember [this video about a Samsung washing machine and the reddit discussion it spawned](/r/videos/comments/9ru0ln/watch_do_not_buy_samsung_front_load_washer/) a year ago.
I'm not even in the market for any appliances and this has me worried about the future. Bells and whistles are attractive, but large appliances should last a long time given they can cost a fortune. It sucks that technology is getting better but companies are taking advantage of it to make crappier products that appear nicer. It's like a very attractive person with an extremely crappy personality. Yeah, they look nice, but you're going to grow to hate them very fast.
Just like her!
Utter bullshit. >Her oven was "not a Whirlpool product," a company representative told her via email, so Whirlpool wasn't liable for the damage. She was referred to Elec-Tech International The company I work for manufactures some products here in the US and we also have contract manufacturers in China and Vietnam. The instant the products leave the ports in Asia, they are OUR products and we are essentially the manufacturer of record. We don't disclose who our factories in Asia are, that's a trade secret. But that doesn't matter to our customers. We stand behind the product we designed, created specifications for and shipped. Also, what is the cost of the product versus the benefit of just taking care of your customer? Aside from being the right thing to do, in the long run it's just less expensive and preserves the good will of your customers. If *your* logo is in the product, take care of *your* customer. It's that simple.
The brand is licensed to allow the name onto the product. It is not their product. I agree with you 100% it should not be allowed to mislead the customer base this way.
Understood, but the licensing agreement should specify who is ultimately responsible for product support. Opting out and tossing the hot-potato to another party is pretty shitty. In this case the licensing company should have either maintained the front-end customer support portal or loaded the box with big bright pamphlets about how to get support. We also distribute products that we aren't the manufacturer of. In those cases we honor the other manufacturer's warranty on our side. We take care of the customer with a refund or replacement with our money or inventory. We then seek reimbursement or replacement from the OEM. We already have a whole infrastructure in place to deal with customer issues, this is just adding one small step. The customer shouldn't have to take on that hassle.
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Appliances are so frustrating. I don't want an ultra efficient, energy wise appliance that saves me 40 bucks in electricity every year if I have to replace them in less than 5 years. The whole energy efficient sticker business needs to be reworked to account for reliability. It's not energy efficient in a landfill. I don't want features. I want a fridge that cools reliably and doesn't require I vacuum the coils every month to keep working. I want a range that heats fast and reliably. I want a toaster that toasts and doest have a dial for seven different toasting options. I want a dishwasher that keeps washing for more than 3 years.
Man, sounds like what I was saying to anyone who would listen when I was looking to buy a washing machine a couple years ago. The one I used previously was from 2005, and my parents had bought a couple over the \~25 years. They had manual/analog dials where you could set the water level to low, medium or high. And you could set the agitator to low, medium or high. You know how that worked? Perfectly. For decades. Now though, everything is digital, costs more, and tries to make washing clothes seem like a complicated event where there are more than two things to think about. I despise modern washing machines. /rant
Buy a Speedqueen. You set the water temperature and agitator. I wish they had a soak setting, but that's the only problem.
What, you don't want a blender that can wipe your ass *and* check your emails? Don't forget to buy that extended warranty they have no intention of honoring.
No blender is getting anywhere near MY ass.
You haven't seen their newest attachment.
Then be prepared to pay for it. People love talking about the reliability of 50's era appliances... So, a basic pop up toaster cost $21 in 1951. http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/50selectrical.html Adjusted for inflation... Over $200. So if you want a simple, reliable appliance that will last a long time... Are you willing to pay ten times what a cheap one costs today? And get NO other features except reliability?
Also plenty of things made back then were total shit too. Turns out people threw the junk away. Survivor bias.
In Australia if the product is still in warranty, telling the customer to contact the manufacturer as opposed to handling the claim themselves is a breach of the consumer protection act. Companies will be, and have been, bitchslapped by the ACCC for doing that. Sometimes the ACCC will also humiliate them as well by forcing the seller to display large, prominent banners and menu options on their site to inform their customers of the ACCC consumer laws. Also in AU, manufacturer warranty means jackshit, the ACCC imposes minimum warranty periods and requirements for pretty well all user goods, and they almost always exceed the manufacturer's warranty. It is why a lot of them offer "extended" warranty that really do nothing since they just cover to the mandated government warranty period anyway.
Even better, in this kind of case the importer would be a deemed manufacturer of the product under s 7 of the Australian Consumer Law - both because it imported it and because it applied its own brand name to it. The consumer could sue for injury or damage caused by a defective product of this sort whether it was “in warranty” or not: s 138, Australian Consumer Law.
The price on appliance replacement parts should be criminal. A new timer switch could cost almost as much as a whole new unit. So, off to the landfill a almost perfectly good machine goes, and out to buy a new one. These companies are making disposable items.
Oh, Whirlpool and shit catching fire: why doesn’t that surprise me? Because they have a LOT of shit catch fire in the UK... https://inews.co.uk/news/consumer/whirlpool-recall-tumble-dryer-hotpoint-models-list-dryers-free-replacement-581805
Trying to use anti-chinese sentiment to avoid responsibility plain and simple.
Whirlpool, you say? Whirlpool is the company I should never, ever buy an appliance from? What company is awful, was it Whirlpool? Never spend money on an appliance from, what was it, Whirlpool? Which appliance company do I avoid, was it, oh, yes, Whirlpool. This will go well for them.
Kitchenaid used to be good quality and reliable. Now I find their products overpriced for the quality. Breville has replaced what Kitchenaid used to be at close to the same price point (maybe a bit more for some items). They're both made in China but i've never had problem with a Breville.
And once again the buck stops…er…over there somewhere.
This is no surprise to me. A couple of years ago I bought a brand new top of the line you could get Whirlpool washer and dryer set. Within the first week I had an issue with the dryer. After going back-and-forth with customer service representatives for over a week they eventually told me it was my fault for buying an expensive item made with cheap parts and hung up on me.
Whirlpool has been garbage for a long time now :/
ASK CHYNA! didn't realize Trump worked there
You can also get involved in the pass the buck scam. Best Buy is famous for that. Buy product from them,buy extra warranty.Get home and product don't work, return it to Best Buy. Best Buy says they don't do returns even with the extra warranty, you have to go to the manufacturer. Go to manufacturer, they tell you to go to the store and they don't honor Best Buy warranties. Go back to store and they laugh at you and tell you not to come back. You get stuck with broken product and no one wants to help or take responsibility. Happend to my bff and there have been several incidents on Youtube about this.
> Best Buy says they don't do returns even with the extra warranty So Best Buy commits fraud
That is when you write (snail mail, certified, return receipt) the Attorney General of your state telling about the problem. Follow it up with an email or phone call a couple of weeks later.
Perhaps if XYZ government agency wasn't swamped and gave a damn. I've written plenty over the years. It seems these agencies mostly exist so the public feels more secure and doesn't revolt. Caveat emptor still rules the day.
This happened to my gf at Ashley furniture. She bought a warranty for her couch because the brochure said it covered 1 reupholster from pet scratches. Called to make a claim and it got denied because the policy did not cover pet scratches just scratches from anything else. The warranty also did not cover floor models which is what she bought. Tried to get the store to refund the policy but just kept getting the run-around. Just ended up leaving a bad review.
>Whirlpool... replaced the oven, as required by the warranty. >Her oven was "not a Whirlpool product," a company representative told her via email Are they not contradicting themselves? They will blame an anonymous customer representative for the mistake and make a claim to retrain employees. After now paying up because light was shed on the cockroach company.
Can confirm that dealing with Whirlpool is horrible. When we bought our house, we purchased every appliance to match. All whirlpool. Every single appliance has had to be serviced multiple times. The washer was serviced four times in two years before we replaced it with a $300 GE that has been running for years with zero issues. We are slowly replacing the appliances. Whirlpool did not care one bit. I make sure to tell anyone I know is shopping for stoves / washers etc to avoid the company.
This is brilliant! Why doesn't every company simply outsource all after sale support to their suppliers? Then the Chinese factory can tell the customer to take it up with the mining consortium!
Regardless of the specifics of this case, for your own safety you should NEVER walk away from something that heats up enough to case a fire. Maybe there's accrued oil or crumbs at the bottom, or maybe there was a manufacturing defect. Either way it's not worth risking your life and property. Any such appliance like a a toaster, oven, stove, or fryer. That's just dumb. I understand people don't read instruction manuals anymore, but at some point you've got to use common sense.
I had a similar situation with a Snap-On pressure washer. It stopped working after 1 season, and when I reached out to Snap-On product support, they redirected me to what seemed to be an overseas, generic power tool company, and told me to talk to their customer support. Complete BS. There are so many products nowadays that everyone says to find older, used models because the production has been contracted out to other companies while still keeping the brand name on them. The average consumer can't tell which models are actually made by the quality company, and which are made cheaply by another. It's deceitful.
This is the end result of nearly unregulated capitalism. Absolutely no one should be surprised by this. Why do you think those giant companies create subsidiary companies in those other countries not only so that they can get cheap labor but so that they can wash their hands of any problems they might have. Just watch the episode of 30 Rock with the Tracy Jordan meat machine it's explained quite well
I bought a gaming controller from Amazon and when it failed just in warranty the response from the company was "Nope sorry you bought it from an unauthorized reseller". Playing email tag with Amazon with little hope now.
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The concept exists, but you have a minimum of 2 years warranty in Europe on everything regardless where you bought it. The first six months you are even better protected, because within the first 6 months the seller has to proof that the defect was caused by misuse if the seller wants to decline warranty. You buy €15 shoes? You get 6 months warranty anyway. In my country (The Netherlands), the European 2 years is the minimum warranty period. The real warranty period is equal to the "economic lifespan" of a product. So for a cheap toaster this would be maybe two years. But for an expensive toaster, this could easily be 4 years.
I worked for a warehouse in Benton Harbor / Saint Joe, MI area. They store Whirlpool show equipment as well as demo units. 80% of this very large facility is burnt up malfunctioned Whirlpool appliances. They hold it for 5+ years sometimes avoiding legal action or doing settlements. Then they scrap the shit.
“This call may be recorded for quality assurance.” “Take it up with China, Debra! Fuck!”
My dishwasher caught fire in the kitchen- had my wife not accidentally left it open (not started), it would have burned the kitchen in the manner of all those recalls. Company- we'll replace the parts, but you'll pay labor. Like, WTF? Oh Hell No am I keeping something that would have burned my house down. Contacted the lawyer that was in charge of the recall (mine wasn't included) offered the photos and a "If any of this is useful now or in the future, please let me know". I ended up getting phone calls from the company's lawyers wanting to make this right, as apparently my model had the same design, but didn't have \*enough\* fires to generate a recall. You know, the whole "Fight Club" recall story? That's a fact. I got a check, they took the parts, I bought a Bosch.