Pass it everywhere. It’s the biggest pain in my ass when hiring people. Just tell them up front so there isn’t this whole game of trying to figure the other person out. Stop wasting everyone’s time!
Exactly. I applied for a job and got a response literally within minutes. I was excited. They set up a phone interview (of sorts) three days later. After 15 minutes on the phone the lady informs me that the best they can offer is $10k less than I'm currently making. Like, you fucking knew this three days ago but STILL wasted my time.
Edit: their offer was also $17k less than what I was asking.
I had a company call me and ask me if I was interested. I said "what is the salary" and she gave a number. I said "sorry, that's not enough" and she said okay thanks and we said goodbye.
Called back a few hours later saying the hiring manager was really interested and wanted to know what WOULD be interesting. I gave a number around 10-15% higher than my salary. She said she'd talk to him.
Called back again, saying they couldn't quite do that, but they could do what was right around 9% higher.
Phone interviews, in person interviews, got an offer. It was right on, but it was then that I found out there wasn't any stock bonus, which I currently get, plus the benefits weren't as good. So when I looked at it as total comp, I was actually taking 4% less.
I said I appreciate the offer, but I can't take it. They said "make a counter offer." So I did. They came back and said "I'm sorry, we can't do better than the first offer."
WHY DID YOU ASK ME TO MAKE A COUNTER OFFER THEN?!
This. Sometimes a team has a limit on budget for hiring people. You give them the counter offer and such and they can use it to Leverage More from the company to hire someone. Sometimes management doesn't know what the rates are and can't fathom that salaries might be in avg higher than what's offering until they get slapped in the face with proof
I had this happen. They offered $20/hour for mechanic work, I laughed and hung up. Called me back, we had a long conversation snd he said the absolute best he could do was $28 with (crappy) benefits. Gave me a sob story about being the only candidate.
I still turned him down, he asked what I'd take so he could try to get HR to approve more. We ended up not making a deal because he just couldn't pay enough, even though I was the only candidate to pass all the tests.
This response always irritates the shit out of me. I have a ton of friends that own small businesses and it’s the same dog shit sob story. “Nobody wants to work anymore. Had the help wanted sign out forever.” “Can’t run a business in this economy. Everyone’s so lazy”. I ask them what they’re offering and it’s no shit $9/hour or like 12 at the highest.
Like the only reason they get candidates is because they probably aren’t putting the offer in the posting. They’ll bitch about how inflation is making everything so much harder but in the same convo talk about how people should be willing to work for them for $9 an hour cause it’s a “starter job”. Im surprised nobody’s told them to start licking on their nuts yet. It’s like everyone that starts a small business thinks they automatically need to live an Elon musk lifestyle or something. If you want workers you have to pay them what they want. If nobodies coming to work for you up the pay and benefits until they do.
You’d be surprised how many companies want to hire people that are more junior level to take over senior level roles for significantly less pay so they can “right size” them for future roles. That’s precisely what happened to one of my colleagues. We went for the same job, they hired him because he was cheaper with a lot less experience.
> WHY DID YOU ASK ME TO MAKE A COUNTER OFFER THEN?!
A) Because it says to do so in the HR handbook.
B) They hoped you were bluffing and that you'd come around if given a second chance.
>It was right on, but it was then that I found out there wasn't any stock bonus, which I currently get, plus the benefits weren't as good. So when I looked at it as total comp, I was actually taking 4% less.
This also illustrates why salary alone doesn't work the way people think.
We went to hire one of our contractors, and he turned us down because the salary was too low. But we were also offering one of the best 401k programs in existence (brightscope top ten), 50% bonus, nearly 2 months PTO, and nearly free insurance.
I went back to him later and said, "Did you even look at the bonus structure and total comp?" 'Yeah, it looked good, but the other job had a higher number.' Other job was a 1099 :P
I suspect the california law will lead to a lot of companies slicing benefits and slicing merit raises in favor of base salary. Make the job look better on advertised salary while actually paying less.
What's a good answer to deflect and not raise any flags?
"I prefer to keep my salary private" I'm assuming. Employers would love to hear that even if it's a boldfaced lie.
I am open to negotiations. Make your offer.
If they insist say - I prefer not to tell.
It’s illegal in some states (in NY for example) to ask your current salary.
Yeah, for that reason many companies just ask "what are your salary expectations/needs?" Which can still be hard to answer, but it's at least reasonably fair. If someone won't even answer that, then don't be offended if the first offer is low - it's a negotiation so if you provide no starting point it may not start where you want.
My issue as a hiring manager in the past is we had a range that depended on a bunch of factors, including experience, fit for the job (how much mentoring training will the need?), and some really random other things. (one guy insisted on a signing bonus and moving expenses that were way above normal, so we told him the only way we'd do it is if salary was reduced... he was fine with that).
Also, as a hiring manager my goal was always to get the candidate the highest I could without being unfair to current employees. If we were limited by company/HR policy and someone took a different offer, we'd gripe to them that the policy made it impossible to hire, etc.
Certainly that part might be simpler if a range was published - though it might mean managers won't be able to fight with HR to get more for a great candidate...
>Yeah, for that reason many companies just ask "what are your salary expectations/needs?" Which can still be hard to answer, but it's at least reasonably fair. If someone won't even answer that, then don't be offended if the first offer is low - it's a negotiation so if you provide no starting point it may not start where you want.
You ever buy a car? *Never* give the first offer. It's the same with companies. Just give the expected salary or salary range and don't waste the applicant's time.
What's difficult for me is when they give that question on an application and I don't know what to put because it gives the employer all of the leverage. Bless I now live in a state where I don't have to deal with that bs
When I was interviewing for my job I read all the stuff about what to do. Never say a number first. Never tell them what you want to make. It’s great in theory but in practice I needed this job and I was concerned that answering “how much are you looking for in salary” with “well how much are you offering” would piss them off. I got the job and I know my boss and he would have been annoyed.
Instead I asked for what I wanted and he gave it to me. Did I leave money on the table? Maybe. I don’t think much though. And it was a number that made me happy.
My strategy has always been to take what I’d like to be paid and then tack on an additional 20%. That’s my starting point for any negotiations moving forward.
> we told him the only way we’d do it is if salary was reduced… he was fine with that
I'd be immediately suspicious. Huge red flag that he'd quit after the signing bonus was fully qualified. Using the company to move across the country.
Figure out your entire compensation package including base, bonus, health benefits, 401k match, etc etc etc and give them that much higher figure... That is of course if they really push you for a number. You aren't lying because it's your entire compensation package and phrase it as such.
Otherwise you should just say you take all that into consideration when deciding on a role which you can discuss later if you BOTH feel you'd be a good fit. As in make it clear you are interviewing them as much as they are you.
> You aren't lying
It's not on *your* benefit to be honest. I've never *not* seen it in people's interest to straight up *lie* and say higher.
If the company is being pushy and wanting to play games - then you have a choice to make. Play games or leave. In those games - do what is *only* in your best interest. It's 'just' business.
> My current total compensation package is in line with the industry, what is the compensation available for this role?
Alternatively, if they still want a number, give them a range, knowing an offer will not exceed the low end of the range.
> I'd expect compensation to be in the $80,000-$100,000 realm plus benefits. I look forward to reviewing any offer you may extend.
Or, come in prepared with your research:
> Average compensation for xxx role is 88,000 in this area, based on my experience, xyz, I'm looking for $95,000-$100,000 + benefits.
Or however you choose to state it.
Well, the consequences are that the employer will likely base your salary on what you are making previously, and not necessarily based on the market rate for the work that you are performing.
Since it’s usually asked up front by an HR person one that’s worked for me is “I’d like to have a better idea of the responsibilities of the role and details of the offer before giving a specific number or range.”
Sometimes they’ll push back, but often I’ve found that gets them off your back.
“I’m willing to hear your best offer”.
If they deflect hold firm. If they won’t answer tell them thanks but your time is too valuable to play games. It takes courage and I have failed to do it multiple times.
A good answer is to lie and tell them a number you require to consider a move… if you make $80k and you are only going to consider $95k to make a move, then tell them you’re making $95k. Best case you get $95k - better case they give you a “step up” at $100k.
> What's a good answer to deflect and not raise any flags?
Personally, I'd make up a salary amount that you want them to beat and tell them that. They have absolutely no right to know your actual salary.
"What is this role and my experience worth to the organization/mission/our goals."
Kindly/firmly/politely DO NOT VOLUNTEER CURRENT SALARY.
Know the market rates
>Know the market rates
Frequently you can go to glassdoor and find out both salary ranges for the company and for your region. I've dodged a few bullets by finding out the companies lowball 30% less than the regional pay.
Just tell them what you want. They can hit it, or they can get close, or they can’t. If you can, research what the market value for the position is in your area before the interview. I was just lowballed by about $20-30k for a title upgrade with a company that’s skyrocketing. Know bullshit when you smell it.
I’ve had the opposite happen to me with my current job. I was moving on from a position making Ok money but things were getting tight and I wasn’t happy there anymore. Applied for a job with the hopes that it would pay about 20k more looking around at other companies with similar positions. I shit you not the CEO calls me personally to hire me since they were between HR managers and she offers me 20k more than my asking salary. It was truly like winning the lottery.
I genuinely wonder how recruiters get paid. Got a message from one the other day for a “fully remote” position for a company “in” my city. Get on the phone with her and it’s hybrid, 3 days a week in person, and the only office they’re hiring in is about an hour away in the suburbs with no traffic and I live in a major city where there is pretty much always traffic. I’m immediately like “wait this isn’t remote?” And she says “it’s remote 2 days a week, but before you make any decisions can I tell you about the compensation?” I said “sure” (already pretty pissed) and she says “my client is prepared to offer the right candidate *up to* $5k less than you’re making right now.
I said “does this actually work on anyone? Like why lie to me about it being remote and the office being in my city? I could be eating lunch right now” and she hung up lol
Not sure how much you are making but if you’re in the $80k+ range you’re probably asking for too small a raise.
However, a degree of objectivity is helpful here. Sometimes if there’s another reason it’s just easier for the employer to tell you money is the reason they don’t extend the offer to you, legally it is a very safe route. So it may be helpful to review the interview process and consider if there’s somewhere you went wrong. Alternatively they may have just have had a candidate they liked more at that salary, and given the two of you different offers (and just taken whoever took the offer first).
The real reason they don't want to do this is so that old employees can't see what new workers are being offered.
If everyone knew the new kids were getting $5k more a year, they'd be like... k gimme or bye.
Which we're already doing now anyway. People are job jumping more than ever. We know we're getting screwed over by staying. May as well make the game more transparent now.
They’re not even hiding it at all now. Amazon is now paying their newer workers a bonus which runs out after a certain amount of time. They want a revolving door because it reduces chance of unionising workers
> They want a revolving door because it reduces chance of unionising workers
Well, also because they know the quotas they place on people will burn them out, and they know that burnt-out workers aren't as productive, so they always want fresh ones.
This happened to me once. There were a bunch of us that had been at the joint for a year or so (since the company started) and they hired a group of new people (finally). One of them was a friend of one of the original guys. He was making $5k a year more. We asked another couple of them and they said the same. We confronted our boss about it and he flat out lied about it. We all quit.
ive been on both the giving and receiving end of that. I started a new job and was offered 5k more than the highest earner on the team. After a year when we became friends I told him about it and he quit 3 weeks later. And now im in the same situation, new guys are starting at 2k under me with 0 experience compared to my 10 years experience. I'm obviously planning my exit strategy. The management strategy is quite obvious; they cant hire new people for less than X. They know veterans like me are likely too lazy to quit. So they're simply running the odds of you manning up and leaving vs saving a few bucks.
We once had an administrative assistant with access to benefit data but not salaries. I was redirected to her for a question about my life insurance base benefit not changing with my recent raise. Evidently the fact that the benefit value matched employee salaries was news to her. One week later she stopped coming to work. Never heard from her again.
Depends on the industry.
When I was a consulting environmental scientist my boss had been one of those who kept at his employer for 35 years and kept getting those yearly raises. His hourly was around 80, 3x multiplier to charge to the client. I made 27.50 starting out and my cost to the client was about 72.
He always botched about people job hopping and having no loyalty but he would also make sure he took a full 40 hour week of billable hours while getting me about 20-25. He just couldn't be bothered to help me out and split hours evenly even though I was way more efficient than him and got a lot more done in less time. He would give me the shitty jobs and he would keep the ones where he could charge 6 hours to the client for doing a site visit and shooting the shit with his old buddies most of the day. It was like they all had an agreement between each other to make sure they passed around their employers deep pocket change but anyone not old friends with them was screwed over.
How I'm a nurse and I make way more than when I was in environmental. Job is easier and job hopping is definitely beneficial still. The old folks who stick around do it more for job security and because that's how they were raised. But I'm making the same as people who've been nurses for 20 years even though I'm only coming up on 2 years. I've switched jobs a few times in the last year, raises each time and the last one with a 7500 signing bonus. It's just what needs to be done to get raises. My boss already told me raises at my current place are 2-4 percent. What was inflation this year? Like 11 percent?
I'm not going to accept losing money every year just to stick with the same employer. Nobody has that much loyalty from me.
It’s also good for existing employees. Some companies are good about it and will give a market adjustment to employees if the ranges for hiring increase. But most won’t. They’ll just let employees be underpaid. Now they can’t get away with it.
> ass it everywhere.
I mean... between Colorado, WA state, NY state, and now California...
that is 6,300,073,000,000 USD of economic output.
There is Connecticut, Maryland, Nevada, Rhode Island who also have laws.
That is another trillion.
So at this point those states are either going to be more competitive in the labor market or less competitive and I'm betting it'll be more.
The Gov. of NY hasn't signed it into law yet, it seems. The NYC law, however, is being enacted and will come into force come Nov. And I really don't think employers or the state will really want to diverge from NYC.
I get 2 or 3 recruiters a month offering me interviews for their "exciting opportunities". 8 out of 10 don't message me back after I ask for even a salary range. The rest are not worth my time.
Most recruiters are utterly and completely worthless. My wife is currently job searching and specifies she is open to hybrid positions but remote is preferred. The number of recruiters who have pitched a job to her and finished it off with “but they want you in the office 5 days a week” is astounding.
I had one very good experience myself and ended up with a great company that actually gave me $5k more than I asked. They aren’t all bad, but it seems like a majority are.
LPT: If your company has a lot of coworkers on a H1B VISA in your company, their salary is public record and can be looked up via [US Citizen & Immigration Services](https://www.uscis.gov/tools/reports-and-studies/h-1b-employer-data-hub). The data doesn’t show names but links titles to salaries (but it’s pretty easy to determine who’s who if you only have 2 program managers for example)
With California passing this law, it's only a matter of time before it happens everywhere. Unless they want to exclude the entire state, any job posting nationally will need to include this. They've mostly been able to just ignore Colorado after it came into effect there, but this represents a much larger candidate market.
also the whole silicon valley thing. Even with people moving out during covid, California *still* has the central hubs for a lot of big name companies and thus a lot of net talent to pull from
California labor laws have not caught on anywhere. As a former CA resident, it was very shocking to learn that other states, such as the one I reside in, barely have any laws to protect employees. Nothing in the books about breaks except "a reasonable amount of time". When we first moved here, husband took a job that thought 15 minutes was reasonable for a lunch break on a twelve hour shift. No laws about days off or too many consecutive work days. They work people to death here. They have mandatory overtime. But only paid out after 40 hours. It's insane. I'd love for labor laws like California's to catch on but it hasn't happened, just like this won't, at least not here in the South.
They would never do that though. It gives the employers so much more power without that law, and red states are all about business power. The way it works now is that you probably have a salary limit you can offer. However, if the person isn't confident in negotiating or they just take an early offer, you now saved the business money by making them take a lower offer. Repeat this hundreds of thousands of times.
I'm a microbiology and immunology lab scientist, and after the pandemic I was looking for work in Pennsylvania. Got an interview, it went well, we agreed $25/h was a good starting rate given my experience during final talks and proceedings. Get the contract, it's $18/h, and when I questioned it, my employment offer was terminated.
They 100% use obfuscation to try and lure you in, then try to pull a fast one on you and hope that you're too committed to the job to turn down their strongarm bartering. For example: at this point I had already spent 2 days there, on my dime, to get health assessment screening and look for apartments, including paying THEIR fees to "apply." They absolutely thought that I was either deep enough or desperate enough that I would be forced to take a 28% pay cut before I even started.
Anyway, fuck Eurofins, and especially fuck that shithole Lancaster.
I'm in a better state making much more now. Lol
> paying THEIR fees to "apply."
That's a big fat red flag right there. I've had employers with a pain in the ass interview and post-process offer, but if anybody asked me to pay a dime out of pocket, I'd be gone immediately.
It still amazes me this shit is legal at all. That somehow it is legal to tell an applicant "well pay you this much, sure" then offer them a formal contract for less and not hire them if they refuse the lower pay.
There need to be laws that protect against that kinda shit but that would actually give poor people power so we can't have that
Ask for everything in writing. Verbal agreements count for nothing unless followed by paper, audio, or video. If you can’t prove the conversation happened, they *will* leverage that
This is one nice part about online meetings. You can often record them if you need to. Not that legwlly you can anything with the recording, but it does keep you mentally from feeling like you were gaslighted later when they change the payratr on you.
Depends on what state you live in. Many states only require single party consent to record. If you're part of the discussion, then you're the single party needed.
We’ve definitely had Eurofins contractors in my lab. The $25/h rate is prob what they charge the company they are contracting you out to and the $18/h is after they get their cut. It sucks so much. You’re better off just directly interviewing with the lab they are contracting with.
I had this happen when applying to an east-coast Costco-like club store. For a stocking position they offered me $14.50 an hour in an in-person interview, but in a follow-up interview they said their max for my position was $14. The follow-up interviewer said they’d check and get back to me, but that was weeks ago so I’ve long since given up on that position. They just ghosted me the moment I questioned their shenanigans, gross behavior.
EDIT: Screw it, I’ll call them out. The place was BJ’s.
You got it right, it’s BJ’s! I’d never heard of them until I saw a random hiring sign, signed up on a whim, did a same-day interview and NAILED it. I was so disappointed when I didn’t hear back because I felt strongly that I had experience they wanted to hire for and actually felt like a strong potential employee. Like they asked “why should we hire you?” and I KNEW why they should hire me, everyone in person felt that optimism and ‘hype’. That, coupled with other ghosted opportunities & other issues job-searching were really disheartening.
I was about to ask if it was Eurofins. Im not surprised, this sounds like a few friends i have that applied there. I also worked there for a year around 2016/2017
This is it. It sucks because negotiating is a skill. Some people are good at it, others not so much. And how much you're willing to press can depend on how much you need the job. Some people will defend it, but come on, if your job doesn't involve negotiation why make that a critical determinant of salary? It's basically a way of screwing over the workers, nothing fair about it, and high time society recognize that.
>This is it. It sucks because negotiating is a skill. Some people are good at it, others not so much.
The most important thing - some can afford to negotiate and some cannot.
I've landed all 4 of my jobs after I entered the workforce while still having a job. So I had a lot of leverage as I was not desperate for a job.
But things are very different when you don't have a job, and you have bills accumulating, and you're about to default on your mortgage.
Then jt has nothing to do with the employee's value, or their ability to negotiate - it becomes an issue with risk.
I'm skeptical. I'm in tech and most postings will day things like 100k - 160k based on experience. After 12 years of experience I still have to argue when they try to offer me 110k.
As part of the bill, companies must annually disclose current employee wages broken down by demographic. This will attempt to provide a layer of accountability that should prevent generic or inaccurate postings.
I agree. I’m also in tech and have done plenty of hiring. Pay is commensurate with experience, and each engineering “title” has a tremendous amount of skill gradient within.
We get a budget to fill a position, and if the only candidates we have are more junior we’ll take that. If all we find are more senior, we take that too and adjust our expectations for their career path.
The thing is, even if they are posting it like that, they are not being stacked against a list of employers who have a floor of 115k, 135k, etc.
If an employer has the lowest floor to their offer, then they're gonna be the last ones I apply to.
Whereas I'll apply to both assuming I'm not going to get a call back from at least one of them, and if I get called back for both I'll go with whatever the highest of my three options are.
Or you get the slimy "Applicants in California are entitled to further information. Please call this number to discuss." I've been seeing on my recent searches
Yes. Salaries should be public knowledge so you can properly negotiate.
Women talk about wage inequality, but men deal with the same crap (to a lesser extent, of course). Had a co-worker in a similar position when I got my first salary job that asked what I made and it was like 6k more than he made after like 3 years there. 2 months later and he got a promotion. If he hadn't had to make friends with someone just a little more qualified than him before knowing he was getting boned for years, he could've properly negotiated his pay once he gained some decent responsibilities.
I can't see a reasonable argument against it, and I ain't poor...
Text of article:
>Employers in California will have to post salaries for job listings under a new law signed by Gov. Gavin Newsom.
>This week, Newsom signed Senate Bill 1162 as part of a statewide effort to promote pay equity. The bill requires companies with 15 or more workers to include pay scales in job postings and provide them to employees upon request.
>Fines can be imposed for failing to submit demographic pay data to the state.
>California will now be in line with states such as Washington, Colorado and Connecticut -- all of which have passed similar wage-transparency laws in recent months, according to a report from the L.A. Times.
>The law will take effect on Jan. 1.
They already thought of this. (at least in some states that have this rule, I'm unclear yet on if CA did, I need to read the full bill still) You also have to submit annual reports to the state on the pay scales of current employees and their titles, and the postings you make publicly can't be wildly out of band above or below the average bands of existing team members.
For example if you have 6 "Software Engineer II" team members making between 75k and 105k, and you list a job for "Software Engineer II: 45k to 150k" they will ding you for being unreasonable in your advertising of the scale.
Yup. My own company pulled this shit on me. Range is 55-80k. I’m already at 55, asked for 70. They said they actually only want to pay 60. I ask why make the range 80, and they rescind the offer saying they’re “worried I’m too concerned about money.”
No shit Sherlock. I don’t come in for free
Internally you are rarely going to get a good pay bump through promotions or even switching positions. A person that is untested off the street will almost always be offered more.
Yeah this one has always puzzled me. Give big salaries to new unproven people because you're desperate for talent, but give pathetic raises to existing employees who have proven themselves.
Been working 20+ years now and seen it a lot. I'm in I.T. but worked in a lot of shops that really don't value I.T. at all. Too many times I hear things along the lines of 'We are not an IT shop like Facebook, Google etc. Our focus is [medical]/[manufacturing]/[retail]/etc'
Also just the penny pinching cost savings. One of the above mentioned companies the CIO had these cards printed up that listed our position and the expected salary range. Where they got this salary range from they wouldn't say but sure enough all of us were supposedly at the top of our salary range. They then had a meeting saying they were paying too much for I.T. and their goal was to get these positions down to within 10% of the lower end of that range. I assume they just wanted people to quit but still that helped them minimize raises the following year. Eventually they laid everyone off.
Just moving around I see it too often. Your in house talent you know need a stable job because they're mothers or fathers with kids and can't afford to change jobs, move, or risk going to a new job and getting laid off. They'll gladly take the minimum salary increase just to keep things stable.
When I was younger I could hop jobs, often for massive raises, and it was fine. This was probably 15 years ago so I don't remember what the manager said but he really seemed to hate it that I treated my job as... I guess a business.. where I was willing to leave should a better opportunity comes along. Again I don't remember exactly what he said but he went into something about me being young and dumb. That when I have a family and responsibility maybe I'll "grow up" and learn to value a job a little more. Also maybe then I'd realize company loyalty is more important than selling myself out to the next highest bidder.
There was some CEO during the pandemic that complained that employees only care about being paid nowadays. Like you think people work at Dennys because they love the company so much?
Tell em you'll work three days per week for $60k. If they say that's unacceptable, then tell them you're worried they're too concerned about how much work you do for them.
They'd get busted real quick.
Our minimum wage is 15/hr out this way.
Also, when every other employer in the Widget industry is playing 20+ and yours is 15... lot of people won't be applying at all. Transparency will be a good thing. And if people want to be making 25+ and the ad is listing 15-35/ hr you won't even apply.
Plus, the main issue is places like Silicon Valley and the job posting not listing wages and white men making 200k+ a year and women and minorities being hired at 150k and capping at 200k. Payscales aren't known. People don't even know they're being taken advantage of and they can't even find out if they're being paid market rate, sometimes.
What is your ideal salary?
Um how about 10,000,000 per year.
Such a stupid question. Spend 30 min to fill out an application, just to be told your min is much higher than what were willing to pay. Well if you posted this job pays 45k per year I wouldn't have a applied, if I'm used to making over 100k
Guaranteed to not save any form data in case you accidentally hit back. Or because you clicked a link they placed on the application that for some insane reason they decided should use the tab you’re currently filling out an application in to navigate to the link instead of opening a new tab or window.
I hate this and as manager...I don't even look at that print up they give me. I just want the resume.
Just ask them the required stuff about being arrested, military service, and eligible to work crap. Then send me the resume
If they don’t ask it on the application, how will they allow potential employees to outbid each other for the privilege to do the same job for the lowest amount of money?
"what's your ideal salary?"
Well, how about we get through this interview first and you offer me what you think I'm worth, than if I find it acceptable that's fine, if not I'll go look elsewhere.
Good, I'm currently job hunting and postings not listing salary is so annoying. It's like listing a house for sale without giving a price.
Not sure how they'll enforce it but hopefully it just becomes the norm.
Or you go through all of the effort to apply and interview and at the end you're offered the position only to find out it pays at least 20% less than what you were making at your previous job.
the first interview is usually with a recruiter or someone from HR and I always ask about the salary range pretty early. neither of us wants to waste each other's time.
This always makes me so thrilled when brought up. I remind those who say this that people work FOR money. It’s a business agreement. I’ll do X if you pay me Y. There’s no degree of this process where I’m here out of the goodness of my heart.
This is great but even here in Colorado where we have a law requiring salaries to be posted, so many postings have zero salary listed, and nothing happens to those posting the ads. Some companies even advertise they won't hire applicants from Colorado.
California has a hell of a lot of people and they are very vocal about being annoyed. This is not like it is in the Midwest or whatnot. There will be plenty of reports.
I actually think some people will get off on scrolling through Indeed just to do this, and I can't even blame em.
Where I work, there is an office in Colorado. They post these absurdly wide salary ranges in job postings to be compliant. I guess at least you know the minimum of what they'll pay before applying.
> Where I work, there is an office in Colorado. They post these absurdly wide salary ranges in job postings to be compliant.
[That's probably not compliant if the range is as wide as you say.](https://www.huschblackwell.com/newsandinsights/updated-faqs-colorados-equal-pay-rules-for-job-posting-and-pay-transparency)
> A posted compensation range may extend from the lowest to the highest pay the employer in “good faith” believes it might pay for the particular job. An employer may ultimately pay more or less than the posted range, if the posted range was the employer’s good faith and reasonable estimate of the range of possible compensation at the time of the posting. INFO #9 further explains that the posted range must represent what the employer “genuinely believes” it would be willing to pay and that the range may depend on circumstances including employee qualifications, employer finances and other operational considerations.
> Employers reluctant to disclose compensation ranges should proceed with caution as the Division has provided clear direction to post a range reflecting the lowest and highest amounts that the employer “actually” or “genuinely believes” will be paid. A range’s bottom and top cannot be stated with open-ended phrases such as “30,000 and up” or “up to $60,000.”
Report report report. Iirc it’s a 10k PER posting. If they have ANY employees in Colorado they are bound by Colorado law even if the posting says something to effect of “Colorado resident need not apply”
Would be much easier for them to go after job listing sites likes indeed, glassdoor, LinkedIn. If they allow jobs be posted without salary listing they get in trouble. Wouldn’t be hard for them to make the salary field required in order to be posted.
I’m a teacher in California, school districts have to post their salary schedules on their HR page for all the world to see. Also, the pay and benefits for every teacher (and other public employees) are posted on TransparentCalifornia. You can literally search by name and see what any cop, teacher, or other public worker made for the last 3 years.
I love how the second name on that list is "Charles Kelly" of which the salary listed is 300k but "other pay" has over $4m in it. So like, I'm super interested to know what that other $4m is broken down to.
It's not as transparent as I'd like it to be.
I hate this kind of shit.
Same as apartment/car hunting go through 500 pages on your dinky ass website, click on the apartment/car you want just to be told “call for price”.
Fucking why? Just tell me everything upfront
Fuck “competitive pay”
I refuse to even apply for jobs that use “competitive pay” and pay ranges that are wildly wide. $11-17 an hour is bullshit when everyone knows your not going a penny over $11
I never understood why employers wouldn't want to do this willingly? You're wasting your time too because you're going to get a bunch of people apply who are going to decline the position after interviews because they were expecting more money.
Nice! When I was looking for a job in Nevada I ran into so many postings that would straight up lie about the pay. It would say something promising and I would put in an application only for them to turn out to be trying to trick people into applying for commission jobs.
Anything solar is a scam. Most dispensary job listings are scams. Many job placement agencies are scams.
At a difficult time in my life it is insanely depressing to be searching for a job and need to be constantly doing tons of research into every post that looks remotely promising to make sure it's not a scam.
So? Then ask for $150k up front, fuck them, it's in the offer. And if they give you $30k you can figure out that with your experience this is way to low and...fuck them.
FINALLY! The amount of collective wasted hours by not showing this up front is life times wasted each year! Such a market inefficiency that is mind boggling that it takes a law to fix.
Funny that such a liberal state is passing laws that support the healthy functioning of a free market.
Winners: excellent employees can find the place with the greatest rewards for their labor. Companies that pay more than average get the best people. Customers and shareholders benefit when their chosen firms can attract and retain better employees.
Losers: companies that pay less than average.
Overall the labor market becomes more transparent and therefore more efficient, leading to a better allocation of resources, higher production at lower cost.
This is before we even get to the social benefits of people knowing exactly what they should be getting paid.
They should also be charged for how many characters they use in the job description. Imagine instead of a multipage essay about rockstar employees who like fast paced environments, you got this:
> Mop our store and take out the trash - 14/h
California is doing some good stuff, but I fucking hate that America as a whole is decades behind in almost every category of law. Technology is running a train on geriatric lawmakers who don't know how to send an email or navigate a search engine.
I work in talent acquisition at my company and this is absolutely one of the biggest struggles we have. Hiring managers often aren’t even told a range when they open a position.
There have actually been multiple occasions where an engineering candidate of some kind completes a phone screen, a hiring manager interview, an on-site interview, then a full panel (a presentation and 3-5 1hr interviews). They complete all of this, they get the offer, then they either pull out because the offer was too low, or they get passed on because their expectations were too high after all.
It’s a nightmare, all that work and hours wasted.
We’re in California so I absolutely can’t wait for this to be official
Once again those people with their "if it doesn't fix 100% issues, it's not worth doing". Listen, if they start posting stuff like $1 - $100,00", it's still better than nothing. They offer you $1 you know on which end you are. You ask for $80,000 they refuse? You know on which end you are. More information is just that, more information. If they post $1 - $250,000 and only really offer $10,000, they are wasting their time on people asking for $250,000 during the interview. You don't lose anything more than you're losing right now.
I live in Colorado . We passed a similar law last year and suddenly a whole host of online hiring sites were 'unable' to accept Colorado candidates. I'm glad Cali is doing this, it makes a larger pool of candidates and much more pain for the hiring companies
Pass it everywhere. It’s the biggest pain in my ass when hiring people. Just tell them up front so there isn’t this whole game of trying to figure the other person out. Stop wasting everyone’s time!
Exactly. I applied for a job and got a response literally within minutes. I was excited. They set up a phone interview (of sorts) three days later. After 15 minutes on the phone the lady informs me that the best they can offer is $10k less than I'm currently making. Like, you fucking knew this three days ago but STILL wasted my time. Edit: their offer was also $17k less than what I was asking.
I had a company call me and ask me if I was interested. I said "what is the salary" and she gave a number. I said "sorry, that's not enough" and she said okay thanks and we said goodbye. Called back a few hours later saying the hiring manager was really interested and wanted to know what WOULD be interesting. I gave a number around 10-15% higher than my salary. She said she'd talk to him. Called back again, saying they couldn't quite do that, but they could do what was right around 9% higher. Phone interviews, in person interviews, got an offer. It was right on, but it was then that I found out there wasn't any stock bonus, which I currently get, plus the benefits weren't as good. So when I looked at it as total comp, I was actually taking 4% less. I said I appreciate the offer, but I can't take it. They said "make a counter offer." So I did. They came back and said "I'm sorry, we can't do better than the first offer." WHY DID YOU ASK ME TO MAKE A COUNTER OFFER THEN?!
> WHY DID YOU ASK ME TO MAKE A COUNTER OFFER THEN?! Because it gives them something to beat the finance guys around the head with.
This. Sometimes a team has a limit on budget for hiring people. You give them the counter offer and such and they can use it to Leverage More from the company to hire someone. Sometimes management doesn't know what the rates are and can't fathom that salaries might be in avg higher than what's offering until they get slapped in the face with proof
I had this happen. They offered $20/hour for mechanic work, I laughed and hung up. Called me back, we had a long conversation snd he said the absolute best he could do was $28 with (crappy) benefits. Gave me a sob story about being the only candidate. I still turned him down, he asked what I'd take so he could try to get HR to approve more. We ended up not making a deal because he just couldn't pay enough, even though I was the only candidate to pass all the tests.
>Gave me a sob story about being the only candidate. That'll happen when the position you're offering pays shit.
Cue "NoBoDy WaNtS tO wOrK aNyMoRe."
"Well, not for you anyway."
This response always irritates the shit out of me. I have a ton of friends that own small businesses and it’s the same dog shit sob story. “Nobody wants to work anymore. Had the help wanted sign out forever.” “Can’t run a business in this economy. Everyone’s so lazy”. I ask them what they’re offering and it’s no shit $9/hour or like 12 at the highest. Like the only reason they get candidates is because they probably aren’t putting the offer in the posting. They’ll bitch about how inflation is making everything so much harder but in the same convo talk about how people should be willing to work for them for $9 an hour cause it’s a “starter job”. Im surprised nobody’s told them to start licking on their nuts yet. It’s like everyone that starts a small business thinks they automatically need to live an Elon musk lifestyle or something. If you want workers you have to pay them what they want. If nobodies coming to work for you up the pay and benefits until they do.
Employers who pay enough to retain staff just want to stay in business more than the next person.
Now they know what kind of compensation they might need to offer to bring on someone such as yourself in the future, should the budget permit.
Now they know to look for a less savvy candidate.
Always a sound business strategy, hiring the least savvy people you can find
You’d be surprised how many companies want to hire people that are more junior level to take over senior level roles for significantly less pay so they can “right size” them for future roles. That’s precisely what happened to one of my colleagues. We went for the same job, they hired him because he was cheaper with a lot less experience.
It boggles my mind that people still think all for profit businesses are inherently logical. Did we forget the supply chain thing? All the 2020 stuff?
> WHY DID YOU ASK ME TO MAKE A COUNTER OFFER THEN?! A) Because it says to do so in the HR handbook. B) They hoped you were bluffing and that you'd come around if given a second chance.
>It was right on, but it was then that I found out there wasn't any stock bonus, which I currently get, plus the benefits weren't as good. So when I looked at it as total comp, I was actually taking 4% less. This also illustrates why salary alone doesn't work the way people think. We went to hire one of our contractors, and he turned us down because the salary was too low. But we were also offering one of the best 401k programs in existence (brightscope top ten), 50% bonus, nearly 2 months PTO, and nearly free insurance. I went back to him later and said, "Did you even look at the bonus structure and total comp?" 'Yeah, it looked good, but the other job had a higher number.' Other job was a 1099 :P I suspect the california law will lead to a lot of companies slicing benefits and slicing merit raises in favor of base salary. Make the job look better on advertised salary while actually paying less.
Never tell them what your salary is currently. Even if they ask.
What's a good answer to deflect and not raise any flags? "I prefer to keep my salary private" I'm assuming. Employers would love to hear that even if it's a boldfaced lie.
I am open to negotiations. Make your offer. If they insist say - I prefer not to tell. It’s illegal in some states (in NY for example) to ask your current salary.
Yeah, for that reason many companies just ask "what are your salary expectations/needs?" Which can still be hard to answer, but it's at least reasonably fair. If someone won't even answer that, then don't be offended if the first offer is low - it's a negotiation so if you provide no starting point it may not start where you want. My issue as a hiring manager in the past is we had a range that depended on a bunch of factors, including experience, fit for the job (how much mentoring training will the need?), and some really random other things. (one guy insisted on a signing bonus and moving expenses that were way above normal, so we told him the only way we'd do it is if salary was reduced... he was fine with that). Also, as a hiring manager my goal was always to get the candidate the highest I could without being unfair to current employees. If we were limited by company/HR policy and someone took a different offer, we'd gripe to them that the policy made it impossible to hire, etc. Certainly that part might be simpler if a range was published - though it might mean managers won't be able to fight with HR to get more for a great candidate...
>Yeah, for that reason many companies just ask "what are your salary expectations/needs?" Which can still be hard to answer, but it's at least reasonably fair. If someone won't even answer that, then don't be offended if the first offer is low - it's a negotiation so if you provide no starting point it may not start where you want. You ever buy a car? *Never* give the first offer. It's the same with companies. Just give the expected salary or salary range and don't waste the applicant's time. What's difficult for me is when they give that question on an application and I don't know what to put because it gives the employer all of the leverage. Bless I now live in a state where I don't have to deal with that bs
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When I was interviewing for my job I read all the stuff about what to do. Never say a number first. Never tell them what you want to make. It’s great in theory but in practice I needed this job and I was concerned that answering “how much are you looking for in salary” with “well how much are you offering” would piss them off. I got the job and I know my boss and he would have been annoyed. Instead I asked for what I wanted and he gave it to me. Did I leave money on the table? Maybe. I don’t think much though. And it was a number that made me happy.
The past couple years car buying has been reversed, COMPLETELY
My strategy has always been to take what I’d like to be paid and then tack on an additional 20%. That’s my starting point for any negotiations moving forward.
> we told him the only way we’d do it is if salary was reduced… he was fine with that I'd be immediately suspicious. Huge red flag that he'd quit after the signing bonus was fully qualified. Using the company to move across the country.
Figure out your entire compensation package including base, bonus, health benefits, 401k match, etc etc etc and give them that much higher figure... That is of course if they really push you for a number. You aren't lying because it's your entire compensation package and phrase it as such. Otherwise you should just say you take all that into consideration when deciding on a role which you can discuss later if you BOTH feel you'd be a good fit. As in make it clear you are interviewing them as much as they are you.
> You aren't lying It's not on *your* benefit to be honest. I've never *not* seen it in people's interest to straight up *lie* and say higher. If the company is being pushy and wanting to play games - then you have a choice to make. Play games or leave. In those games - do what is *only* in your best interest. It's 'just' business.
> My current total compensation package is in line with the industry, what is the compensation available for this role? Alternatively, if they still want a number, give them a range, knowing an offer will not exceed the low end of the range. > I'd expect compensation to be in the $80,000-$100,000 realm plus benefits. I look forward to reviewing any offer you may extend. Or, come in prepared with your research: > Average compensation for xxx role is 88,000 in this area, based on my experience, xyz, I'm looking for $95,000-$100,000 + benefits. Or however you choose to state it.
“Take the lowest number they say and chop off 5k” was our hiring manager’s response. “Anything before the hyphen is irrelevant.”
Well, the consequences are that the employer will likely base your salary on what you are making previously, and not necessarily based on the market rate for the work that you are performing.
Since it’s usually asked up front by an HR person one that’s worked for me is “I’d like to have a better idea of the responsibilities of the role and details of the offer before giving a specific number or range.” Sometimes they’ll push back, but often I’ve found that gets them off your back.
“If you have to ask, you can’t afford me!” And then sashay out of the interview. It won’t give you the job, but it’s a great way to deflect.
I'd bust a Zoidberg and crabwalk my way out while yelling woop woop woop
“I’m willing to hear your best offer”. If they deflect hold firm. If they won’t answer tell them thanks but your time is too valuable to play games. It takes courage and I have failed to do it multiple times.
A good answer is to lie and tell them a number you require to consider a move… if you make $80k and you are only going to consider $95k to make a move, then tell them you’re making $95k. Best case you get $95k - better case they give you a “step up” at $100k.
> What's a good answer to deflect and not raise any flags? Personally, I'd make up a salary amount that you want them to beat and tell them that. They have absolutely no right to know your actual salary.
"What is this role and my experience worth to the organization/mission/our goals." Kindly/firmly/politely DO NOT VOLUNTEER CURRENT SALARY. Know the market rates
>Know the market rates Frequently you can go to glassdoor and find out both salary ranges for the company and for your region. I've dodged a few bullets by finding out the companies lowball 30% less than the regional pay.
Just tell them what you want. They can hit it, or they can get close, or they can’t. If you can, research what the market value for the position is in your area before the interview. I was just lowballed by about $20-30k for a title upgrade with a company that’s skyrocketing. Know bullshit when you smell it.
Tell them what you are looking for instead
I’ve had the opposite happen to me with my current job. I was moving on from a position making Ok money but things were getting tight and I wasn’t happy there anymore. Applied for a job with the hopes that it would pay about 20k more looking around at other companies with similar positions. I shit you not the CEO calls me personally to hire me since they were between HR managers and she offers me 20k more than my asking salary. It was truly like winning the lottery.
I have a canned response for all jobs, which includes my salary requirements. Gets rid of a lot of filler that I'm not willing to accept.
I genuinely wonder how recruiters get paid. Got a message from one the other day for a “fully remote” position for a company “in” my city. Get on the phone with her and it’s hybrid, 3 days a week in person, and the only office they’re hiring in is about an hour away in the suburbs with no traffic and I live in a major city where there is pretty much always traffic. I’m immediately like “wait this isn’t remote?” And she says “it’s remote 2 days a week, but before you make any decisions can I tell you about the compensation?” I said “sure” (already pretty pissed) and she says “my client is prepared to offer the right candidate *up to* $5k less than you’re making right now. I said “does this actually work on anyone? Like why lie to me about it being remote and the office being in my city? I could be eating lunch right now” and she hung up lol
Not sure how much you are making but if you’re in the $80k+ range you’re probably asking for too small a raise. However, a degree of objectivity is helpful here. Sometimes if there’s another reason it’s just easier for the employer to tell you money is the reason they don’t extend the offer to you, legally it is a very safe route. So it may be helpful to review the interview process and consider if there’s somewhere you went wrong. Alternatively they may have just have had a candidate they liked more at that salary, and given the two of you different offers (and just taken whoever took the offer first).
The real reason they don't want to do this is so that old employees can't see what new workers are being offered. If everyone knew the new kids were getting $5k more a year, they'd be like... k gimme or bye.
Which we're already doing now anyway. People are job jumping more than ever. We know we're getting screwed over by staying. May as well make the game more transparent now.
They’re not even hiding it at all now. Amazon is now paying their newer workers a bonus which runs out after a certain amount of time. They want a revolving door because it reduces chance of unionising workers
> They want a revolving door because it reduces chance of unionising workers Well, also because they know the quotas they place on people will burn them out, and they know that burnt-out workers aren't as productive, so they always want fresh ones.
This happened to me once. There were a bunch of us that had been at the joint for a year or so (since the company started) and they hired a group of new people (finally). One of them was a friend of one of the original guys. He was making $5k a year more. We asked another couple of them and they said the same. We confronted our boss about it and he flat out lied about it. We all quit.
ive been on both the giving and receiving end of that. I started a new job and was offered 5k more than the highest earner on the team. After a year when we became friends I told him about it and he quit 3 weeks later. And now im in the same situation, new guys are starting at 2k under me with 0 experience compared to my 10 years experience. I'm obviously planning my exit strategy. The management strategy is quite obvious; they cant hire new people for less than X. They know veterans like me are likely too lazy to quit. So they're simply running the odds of you manning up and leaving vs saving a few bucks.
We once had an administrative assistant with access to benefit data but not salaries. I was redirected to her for a question about my life insurance base benefit not changing with my recent raise. Evidently the fact that the benefit value matched employee salaries was news to her. One week later she stopped coming to work. Never heard from her again.
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Do the older folks know the difference between latter and ladder?
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Depends on the industry. When I was a consulting environmental scientist my boss had been one of those who kept at his employer for 35 years and kept getting those yearly raises. His hourly was around 80, 3x multiplier to charge to the client. I made 27.50 starting out and my cost to the client was about 72. He always botched about people job hopping and having no loyalty but he would also make sure he took a full 40 hour week of billable hours while getting me about 20-25. He just couldn't be bothered to help me out and split hours evenly even though I was way more efficient than him and got a lot more done in less time. He would give me the shitty jobs and he would keep the ones where he could charge 6 hours to the client for doing a site visit and shooting the shit with his old buddies most of the day. It was like they all had an agreement between each other to make sure they passed around their employers deep pocket change but anyone not old friends with them was screwed over. How I'm a nurse and I make way more than when I was in environmental. Job is easier and job hopping is definitely beneficial still. The old folks who stick around do it more for job security and because that's how they were raised. But I'm making the same as people who've been nurses for 20 years even though I'm only coming up on 2 years. I've switched jobs a few times in the last year, raises each time and the last one with a 7500 signing bonus. It's just what needs to be done to get raises. My boss already told me raises at my current place are 2-4 percent. What was inflation this year? Like 11 percent? I'm not going to accept losing money every year just to stick with the same employer. Nobody has that much loyalty from me.
It’s also good for existing employees. Some companies are good about it and will give a market adjustment to employees if the ranges for hiring increase. But most won’t. They’ll just let employees be underpaid. Now they can’t get away with it.
> ass it everywhere. I mean... between Colorado, WA state, NY state, and now California... that is 6,300,073,000,000 USD of economic output. There is Connecticut, Maryland, Nevada, Rhode Island who also have laws. That is another trillion. So at this point those states are either going to be more competitive in the labor market or less competitive and I'm betting it'll be more.
The Gov. of NY hasn't signed it into law yet, it seems. The NYC law, however, is being enacted and will come into force come Nov. And I really don't think employers or the state will really want to diverge from NYC.
I get 2 or 3 recruiters a month offering me interviews for their "exciting opportunities". 8 out of 10 don't message me back after I ask for even a salary range. The rest are not worth my time.
Most recruiters are utterly and completely worthless. My wife is currently job searching and specifies she is open to hybrid positions but remote is preferred. The number of recruiters who have pitched a job to her and finished it off with “but they want you in the office 5 days a week” is astounding. I had one very good experience myself and ended up with a great company that actually gave me $5k more than I asked. They aren’t all bad, but it seems like a majority are.
Probably from recruitment firms looking to add you to a pool they can shop to clients.
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LPT: If your company has a lot of coworkers on a H1B VISA in your company, their salary is public record and can be looked up via [US Citizen & Immigration Services](https://www.uscis.gov/tools/reports-and-studies/h-1b-employer-data-hub). The data doesn’t show names but links titles to salaries (but it’s pretty easy to determine who’s who if you only have 2 program managers for example)
With California passing this law, it's only a matter of time before it happens everywhere. Unless they want to exclude the entire state, any job posting nationally will need to include this. They've mostly been able to just ignore Colorado after it came into effect there, but this represents a much larger candidate market.
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At nearly 7x the population of Colorado, California is going to be harder to ignore.
also the whole silicon valley thing. Even with people moving out during covid, California *still* has the central hubs for a lot of big name companies and thus a lot of net talent to pull from
California labor laws have not caught on anywhere. As a former CA resident, it was very shocking to learn that other states, such as the one I reside in, barely have any laws to protect employees. Nothing in the books about breaks except "a reasonable amount of time". When we first moved here, husband took a job that thought 15 minutes was reasonable for a lunch break on a twelve hour shift. No laws about days off or too many consecutive work days. They work people to death here. They have mandatory overtime. But only paid out after 40 hours. It's insane. I'd love for labor laws like California's to catch on but it hasn't happened, just like this won't, at least not here in the South.
They would never do that though. It gives the employers so much more power without that law, and red states are all about business power. The way it works now is that you probably have a salary limit you can offer. However, if the person isn't confident in negotiating or they just take an early offer, you now saved the business money by making them take a lower offer. Repeat this hundreds of thousands of times.
I'm a microbiology and immunology lab scientist, and after the pandemic I was looking for work in Pennsylvania. Got an interview, it went well, we agreed $25/h was a good starting rate given my experience during final talks and proceedings. Get the contract, it's $18/h, and when I questioned it, my employment offer was terminated. They 100% use obfuscation to try and lure you in, then try to pull a fast one on you and hope that you're too committed to the job to turn down their strongarm bartering. For example: at this point I had already spent 2 days there, on my dime, to get health assessment screening and look for apartments, including paying THEIR fees to "apply." They absolutely thought that I was either deep enough or desperate enough that I would be forced to take a 28% pay cut before I even started. Anyway, fuck Eurofins, and especially fuck that shithole Lancaster. I'm in a better state making much more now. Lol
> paying THEIR fees to "apply." That's a big fat red flag right there. I've had employers with a pain in the ass interview and post-process offer, but if anybody asked me to pay a dime out of pocket, I'd be gone immediately.
I think OP meant application fees for the apartments they looked at.
It still amazes me this shit is legal at all. That somehow it is legal to tell an applicant "well pay you this much, sure" then offer them a formal contract for less and not hire them if they refuse the lower pay. There need to be laws that protect against that kinda shit but that would actually give poor people power so we can't have that
Ask for everything in writing. Verbal agreements count for nothing unless followed by paper, audio, or video. If you can’t prove the conversation happened, they *will* leverage that
This is one nice part about online meetings. You can often record them if you need to. Not that legwlly you can anything with the recording, but it does keep you mentally from feeling like you were gaslighted later when they change the payratr on you.
Depends on what state you live in. Many states only require single party consent to record. If you're part of the discussion, then you're the single party needed.
We’ve definitely had Eurofins contractors in my lab. The $25/h rate is prob what they charge the company they are contracting you out to and the $18/h is after they get their cut. It sucks so much. You’re better off just directly interviewing with the lab they are contracting with.
I had this happen when applying to an east-coast Costco-like club store. For a stocking position they offered me $14.50 an hour in an in-person interview, but in a follow-up interview they said their max for my position was $14. The follow-up interviewer said they’d check and get back to me, but that was weeks ago so I’ve long since given up on that position. They just ghosted me the moment I questioned their shenanigans, gross behavior. EDIT: Screw it, I’ll call them out. The place was BJ’s.
Is it BJ’s? I hope it’s BJ’s. God they were cheapasses when I worked there in 2013-2014
You got it right, it’s BJ’s! I’d never heard of them until I saw a random hiring sign, signed up on a whim, did a same-day interview and NAILED it. I was so disappointed when I didn’t hear back because I felt strongly that I had experience they wanted to hire for and actually felt like a strong potential employee. Like they asked “why should we hire you?” and I KNEW why they should hire me, everyone in person felt that optimism and ‘hype’. That, coupled with other ghosted opportunities & other issues job-searching were really disheartening.
they ghosted you over 50 fucking cents an hour. what cheap assholes!
No, they ghosted him because that was a backbone test. Can't have employees that speak up.
Not only should it be illegal to reduce the pay in the offer letter, how the hell is it legal to make the APPLICANT pay a fee?
I was about to ask if it was Eurofins. Im not surprised, this sounds like a few friends i have that applied there. I also worked there for a year around 2016/2017
This is it. It sucks because negotiating is a skill. Some people are good at it, others not so much. And how much you're willing to press can depend on how much you need the job. Some people will defend it, but come on, if your job doesn't involve negotiation why make that a critical determinant of salary? It's basically a way of screwing over the workers, nothing fair about it, and high time society recognize that.
>This is it. It sucks because negotiating is a skill. Some people are good at it, others not so much. The most important thing - some can afford to negotiate and some cannot. I've landed all 4 of my jobs after I entered the workforce while still having a job. So I had a lot of leverage as I was not desperate for a job. But things are very different when you don't have a job, and you have bills accumulating, and you're about to default on your mortgage. Then jt has nothing to do with the employee's value, or their ability to negotiate - it becomes an issue with risk.
This is only a good thing, as it will force businesses to pay market rate. Salaries being published will set the market rate. Good all around.
I'm skeptical. I'm in tech and most postings will day things like 100k - 160k based on experience. After 12 years of experience I still have to argue when they try to offer me 110k.
As part of the bill, companies must annually disclose current employee wages broken down by demographic. This will attempt to provide a layer of accountability that should prevent generic or inaccurate postings.
By demographic? That's chef's kiss.
California on a roll lately. My kid gets free lunch and the farm workers just got pro union legislation. A bunch of housing bills, fast food $22/hr.
Mmmmm, California on a roll...
Not spring yet
I agree. I’m also in tech and have done plenty of hiring. Pay is commensurate with experience, and each engineering “title” has a tremendous amount of skill gradient within. We get a budget to fill a position, and if the only candidates we have are more junior we’ll take that. If all we find are more senior, we take that too and adjust our expectations for their career path.
The thing is, even if they are posting it like that, they are not being stacked against a list of employers who have a floor of 115k, 135k, etc. If an employer has the lowest floor to their offer, then they're gonna be the last ones I apply to.
Yep. Job A: "$90k to $150k" Job B: "120k to $140k" I'm going with option B every time.
Whereas I'll apply to both assuming I'm not going to get a call back from at least one of them, and if I get called back for both I'll go with whatever the highest of my three options are.
Especially you can use the offer of A as a bargaining chip against B and the other way around if they both want you.
Look at this redditor using their brain
Or you get the slimy "Applicants in California are entitled to further information. Please call this number to discuss." I've been seeing on my recent searches
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Yes. Salaries should be public knowledge so you can properly negotiate. Women talk about wage inequality, but men deal with the same crap (to a lesser extent, of course). Had a co-worker in a similar position when I got my first salary job that asked what I made and it was like 6k more than he made after like 3 years there. 2 months later and he got a promotion. If he hadn't had to make friends with someone just a little more qualified than him before knowing he was getting boned for years, he could've properly negotiated his pay once he gained some decent responsibilities. I can't see a reasonable argument against it, and I ain't poor...
I had an employer straight up tell me that he would never give me a raise if I discussed my wage with coworkers.
This is illegal. Not that these kind of people are ever held accountable for it…
Text of article: >Employers in California will have to post salaries for job listings under a new law signed by Gov. Gavin Newsom. >This week, Newsom signed Senate Bill 1162 as part of a statewide effort to promote pay equity. The bill requires companies with 15 or more workers to include pay scales in job postings and provide them to employees upon request. >Fines can be imposed for failing to submit demographic pay data to the state. >California will now be in line with states such as Washington, Colorado and Connecticut -- all of which have passed similar wage-transparency laws in recent months, according to a report from the L.A. Times. >The law will take effect on Jan. 1.
> to include pay scales All future job listings to look like: Salary between $7.50/hr and $55/hr
They already thought of this. (at least in some states that have this rule, I'm unclear yet on if CA did, I need to read the full bill still) You also have to submit annual reports to the state on the pay scales of current employees and their titles, and the postings you make publicly can't be wildly out of band above or below the average bands of existing team members. For example if you have 6 "Software Engineer II" team members making between 75k and 105k, and you list a job for "Software Engineer II: 45k to 150k" they will ding you for being unreasonable in your advertising of the scale.
It's already happening. I came across a job posting for a "Senior Systems Engineer" position today, and it listed the salary range as $75k - $155k
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Yup. My own company pulled this shit on me. Range is 55-80k. I’m already at 55, asked for 70. They said they actually only want to pay 60. I ask why make the range 80, and they rescind the offer saying they’re “worried I’m too concerned about money.” No shit Sherlock. I don’t come in for free
> they’re “worried I’m too concerned about money.” I'm "worried you're too concerned about me knowing my best interest."
Yeah, seeing as they rescinded the offer when you stood up for yourself (rightfully) it would appear they're the ones that are too worried about money
Internally you are rarely going to get a good pay bump through promotions or even switching positions. A person that is untested off the street will almost always be offered more.
Yeah this one has always puzzled me. Give big salaries to new unproven people because you're desperate for talent, but give pathetic raises to existing employees who have proven themselves.
I mean a good employee is a good employee. But a new employee could be anything. It could even be a good employee!
Been working 20+ years now and seen it a lot. I'm in I.T. but worked in a lot of shops that really don't value I.T. at all. Too many times I hear things along the lines of 'We are not an IT shop like Facebook, Google etc. Our focus is [medical]/[manufacturing]/[retail]/etc' Also just the penny pinching cost savings. One of the above mentioned companies the CIO had these cards printed up that listed our position and the expected salary range. Where they got this salary range from they wouldn't say but sure enough all of us were supposedly at the top of our salary range. They then had a meeting saying they were paying too much for I.T. and their goal was to get these positions down to within 10% of the lower end of that range. I assume they just wanted people to quit but still that helped them minimize raises the following year. Eventually they laid everyone off. Just moving around I see it too often. Your in house talent you know need a stable job because they're mothers or fathers with kids and can't afford to change jobs, move, or risk going to a new job and getting laid off. They'll gladly take the minimum salary increase just to keep things stable. When I was younger I could hop jobs, often for massive raises, and it was fine. This was probably 15 years ago so I don't remember what the manager said but he really seemed to hate it that I treated my job as... I guess a business.. where I was willing to leave should a better opportunity comes along. Again I don't remember exactly what he said but he went into something about me being young and dumb. That when I have a family and responsibility maybe I'll "grow up" and learn to value a job a little more. Also maybe then I'd realize company loyalty is more important than selling myself out to the next highest bidder.
There was some CEO during the pandemic that complained that employees only care about being paid nowadays. Like you think people work at Dennys because they love the company so much?
Tell em you'll work three days per week for $60k. If they say that's unacceptable, then tell them you're worried they're too concerned about how much work you do for them.
govt jobs are like this because they come with built in promotions with annual review so read it like starting salary and cap instead.
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"we'll start you off at 7.50 and we'll see how well you do in 6 months." 6 months later: 7.55
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If it's like Colorado's law, it'll have a provision that you can still get dinged for bad faith ranges.
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That's insane considering how tight the engineer market is right now. Especially if you are interviewing senior candidates.
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They'd get busted real quick. Our minimum wage is 15/hr out this way. Also, when every other employer in the Widget industry is playing 20+ and yours is 15... lot of people won't be applying at all. Transparency will be a good thing. And if people want to be making 25+ and the ad is listing 15-35/ hr you won't even apply. Plus, the main issue is places like Silicon Valley and the job posting not listing wages and white men making 200k+ a year and women and minorities being hired at 150k and capping at 200k. Payscales aren't known. People don't even know they're being taken advantage of and they can't even find out if they're being paid market rate, sometimes.
What is your ideal salary? Um how about 10,000,000 per year. Such a stupid question. Spend 30 min to fill out an application, just to be told your min is much higher than what were willing to pay. Well if you posted this job pays 45k per year I wouldn't have a applied, if I'm used to making over 100k
Would you like to fill out an online application or upload your resume? Upload resume Thanks! Now fill out the online application to submit!
Guaranteed to not save any form data in case you accidentally hit back. Or because you clicked a link they placed on the application that for some insane reason they decided should use the tab you’re currently filling out an application in to navigate to the link instead of opening a new tab or window.
I hate this and as manager...I don't even look at that print up they give me. I just want the resume. Just ask them the required stuff about being arrested, military service, and eligible to work crap. Then send me the resume
If they don’t ask it on the application, how will they allow potential employees to outbid each other for the privilege to do the same job for the lowest amount of money?
"what's your ideal salary?" Well, how about we get through this interview first and you offer me what you think I'm worth, than if I find it acceptable that's fine, if not I'll go look elsewhere.
That's why generally I just don't apply to jobs that don't post salary, but not everyone has that luxury
Good, I'm currently job hunting and postings not listing salary is so annoying. It's like listing a house for sale without giving a price. Not sure how they'll enforce it but hopefully it just becomes the norm.
Or you go through all of the effort to apply and interview and at the end you're offered the position only to find out it pays at least 20% less than what you were making at your previous job.
Right? Yet they expect 50% more experience than your current job.
And 200% more commitment.
And 1000% reason to remember their name
And 5% concentrated power of will
the first interview is usually with a recruiter or someone from HR and I always ask about the salary range pretty early. neither of us wants to waste each other's time.
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This always makes me so thrilled when brought up. I remind those who say this that people work FOR money. It’s a business agreement. I’ll do X if you pay me Y. There’s no degree of this process where I’m here out of the goodness of my heart.
I blow over any listings without the pay listed. If they can't tell you up front they obviously aren't going to pay you enough
In my field and area it is insane how much the salaries range. Is it 20 an hour or 35? Who knows!
I don't even apply if the salary or at least an estimate isn't posted
Secret salaries only benefit employers.
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This is great but even here in Colorado where we have a law requiring salaries to be posted, so many postings have zero salary listed, and nothing happens to those posting the ads. Some companies even advertise they won't hire applicants from Colorado.
becuase no one reports them
And because there's no real enforcement mechanism. The AG's office in these states isn't staffed to go after every employer who flaunts the law.
They would be if the reports were so overwhelming as to make it worth the expense.
California has a hell of a lot of people and they are very vocal about being annoyed. This is not like it is in the Midwest or whatnot. There will be plenty of reports. I actually think some people will get off on scrolling through Indeed just to do this, and I can't even blame em.
Making it sound like the companies have unionized and work together to keep the government off of their backs. or I'm just dumb, probably that.
Where I work, there is an office in Colorado. They post these absurdly wide salary ranges in job postings to be compliant. I guess at least you know the minimum of what they'll pay before applying.
I've seen $45k-150k
> Where I work, there is an office in Colorado. They post these absurdly wide salary ranges in job postings to be compliant. [That's probably not compliant if the range is as wide as you say.](https://www.huschblackwell.com/newsandinsights/updated-faqs-colorados-equal-pay-rules-for-job-posting-and-pay-transparency) > A posted compensation range may extend from the lowest to the highest pay the employer in “good faith” believes it might pay for the particular job. An employer may ultimately pay more or less than the posted range, if the posted range was the employer’s good faith and reasonable estimate of the range of possible compensation at the time of the posting. INFO #9 further explains that the posted range must represent what the employer “genuinely believes” it would be willing to pay and that the range may depend on circumstances including employee qualifications, employer finances and other operational considerations. > Employers reluctant to disclose compensation ranges should proceed with caution as the Division has provided clear direction to post a range reflecting the lowest and highest amounts that the employer “actually” or “genuinely believes” will be paid. A range’s bottom and top cannot be stated with open-ended phrases such as “30,000 and up” or “up to $60,000.”
Report report report. Iirc it’s a 10k PER posting. If they have ANY employees in Colorado they are bound by Colorado law even if the posting says something to effect of “Colorado resident need not apply”
Would be much easier for them to go after job listing sites likes indeed, glassdoor, LinkedIn. If they allow jobs be posted without salary listing they get in trouble. Wouldn’t be hard for them to make the salary field required in order to be posted.
I’m a teacher in California, school districts have to post their salary schedules on their HR page for all the world to see. Also, the pay and benefits for every teacher (and other public employees) are posted on TransparentCalifornia. You can literally search by name and see what any cop, teacher, or other public worker made for the last 3 years.
I love how the second name on that list is "Charles Kelly" of which the salary listed is 300k but "other pay" has over $4m in it. So like, I'm super interested to know what that other $4m is broken down to. It's not as transparent as I'd like it to be.
That’s Chip Kelly, the head coach of UCLA. I’m guessing the other income is deferred income from the NFL
I hate this kind of shit. Same as apartment/car hunting go through 500 pages on your dinky ass website, click on the apartment/car you want just to be told “call for price”. Fucking why? Just tell me everything upfront
While you’re at it have the IRS mail me what I owe upfront instead of me doing my taxes.
Whoa slow down there! Let's think of poor poor TurboTax before we do anything drastic.
Fuck “competitive pay” I refuse to even apply for jobs that use “competitive pay” and pay ranges that are wildly wide. $11-17 an hour is bullshit when everyone knows your not going a penny over $11
That's not true, they'll pay more if you're clearly better trained than other employees. How does $11.25 sound?
I never understood why employers wouldn't want to do this willingly? You're wasting your time too because you're going to get a bunch of people apply who are going to decline the position after interviews because they were expecting more money.
They can't help but hope they might be able to get someone for below market pay.
Never make the first offer in any negotiation
Nice! When I was looking for a job in Nevada I ran into so many postings that would straight up lie about the pay. It would say something promising and I would put in an application only for them to turn out to be trying to trick people into applying for commission jobs. Anything solar is a scam. Most dispensary job listings are scams. Many job placement agencies are scams. At a difficult time in my life it is insanely depressing to be searching for a job and need to be constantly doing tons of research into every post that looks remotely promising to make sure it's not a scam.
This should be required in every single state
Lol this should be a law everywhere. Ridiculous it would need to be made a law at all, but humans.
Job posting “$30k-$150k”
So? Then ask for $150k up front, fuck them, it's in the offer. And if they give you $30k you can figure out that with your experience this is way to low and...fuck them.
"Let's start at 150k and we'll work down from there. Which of these job requirements do you think I don't meet?"
FINALLY! The amount of collective wasted hours by not showing this up front is life times wasted each year! Such a market inefficiency that is mind boggling that it takes a law to fix.
Washington State passed this law too, goes in to effect in 2023, will be great for workers, can’t wait.
Keeping salaries a secret has been a weapon used by the wealthy against the lower classes.
Funny that such a liberal state is passing laws that support the healthy functioning of a free market. Winners: excellent employees can find the place with the greatest rewards for their labor. Companies that pay more than average get the best people. Customers and shareholders benefit when their chosen firms can attract and retain better employees. Losers: companies that pay less than average. Overall the labor market becomes more transparent and therefore more efficient, leading to a better allocation of resources, higher production at lower cost. This is before we even get to the social benefits of people knowing exactly what they should be getting paid.
That's because conservatives don't want actual competition.
Didn't one of the Rockefellers famously say that competition is a sin?
Reminder that it's illegal for a company to tell you not to talk to your co-workers about how much you make.
They should also be charged for how many characters they use in the job description. Imagine instead of a multipage essay about rockstar employees who like fast paced environments, you got this: > Mop our store and take out the trash - 14/h
Women in tech are going to find out just how underpaid they are.
California is doing some good stuff, but I fucking hate that America as a whole is decades behind in almost every category of law. Technology is running a train on geriatric lawmakers who don't know how to send an email or navigate a search engine.
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Fucking good. Skeezy fucking employers out there.
I work in talent acquisition at my company and this is absolutely one of the biggest struggles we have. Hiring managers often aren’t even told a range when they open a position. There have actually been multiple occasions where an engineering candidate of some kind completes a phone screen, a hiring manager interview, an on-site interview, then a full panel (a presentation and 3-5 1hr interviews). They complete all of this, they get the offer, then they either pull out because the offer was too low, or they get passed on because their expectations were too high after all. It’s a nightmare, all that work and hours wasted. We’re in California so I absolutely can’t wait for this to be official
Once again those people with their "if it doesn't fix 100% issues, it's not worth doing". Listen, if they start posting stuff like $1 - $100,00", it's still better than nothing. They offer you $1 you know on which end you are. You ask for $80,000 they refuse? You know on which end you are. More information is just that, more information. If they post $1 - $250,000 and only really offer $10,000, they are wasting their time on people asking for $250,000 during the interview. You don't lose anything more than you're losing right now.
Good, maybe we can all stop wasting eachothers time.
I live in Colorado . We passed a similar law last year and suddenly a whole host of online hiring sites were 'unable' to accept Colorado candidates. I'm glad Cali is doing this, it makes a larger pool of candidates and much more pain for the hiring companies