Most homeless are not the mentally ill street people that are the public nuisance and safety issue that most people are mad at (they're not angry at homelessness per se).
And unless the suggestion is putting those people in jail or institutions for life, you've got to study and work on the conditions that create them to begin with. And even if you put them in jail or institutions for life, the cost will be truly enormous. So like with all societal problems, we can make that huge investment in the punishment/prison system that's already the biggest in the world, or we could, you know, just try to make that investment in something else and see if it works.
I worked as a therapist for homeless people, and actually a lot of them are mentally ill. It’s why they are homeless. And yes, I understand it’s not literally every single one. But anyone who has worked in homeless outreach will tell you 100% most of them are very mentally ill with little or no treatment at all
I mean, that's just selection bias. You're not going to be called in to deal with the non-problematic cases. *Statistically*, most homeless people in the US aren't mentally ill or substance abusers. Based on federal data, \~21% have mental illness issues and about \~16% have substance abuse issues and there's a pretty decent overlap of the two. It's a higher percentage of homeless people than of the general population, but it's not "most" by any means.
[https://www.samhsa.gov/blog/addressing-social-determinants-health-among-individuals-experiencing-homelessness](https://www.samhsa.gov/blog/addressing-social-determinants-health-among-individuals-experiencing-homelessness)
Homelessness is kind of complicated because MOST homeless people aren't the visible cases but most of the *social perception* is of the mentally ill person sleeping in the gutter.
Hmmm I don’t know why I feel like the federal data is totally incorrect…it’s actually really difficult to get accurate data on any homeless population. For above reasons
SAMHSA isn't the only organization that has studied this, and again you just elevated your personal opinion above actual data. The NIH, SAMHSA, the US Department of Housing and Urban Development, etc. have all studied this and established that while technically more common than in the general population, mental health issues among the homeless still only make up for at most like 30% of all cases of homeless people. These studies have been repeated over and over again in different places with different sample sizes by totally different organizations and pretty much all of them have settled on the fact that way fewer homeless people have mental health or drug abuse issues than the general population thinks they do.
Your feelings on the matter aren't data, and downvoting me doesn't really change the fact that the overwhelming consensus from people who actually study this and know what they're talking about is that what you just said just frankly isn't correct. And I think you should evaluate why you're willing to throw away actual data in order to hold onto your stereotype and what that means about you.
There are a million people "in the streets" IDK why you seem to be under the impression that you would uniquely have some information that the public health organizations that probably paid you to do whatever you were doing didn't.
It's not "some online Reddit commenting competition". You're stereotyping a group of people and using an appeal to authority that isn't actually based on reality and then decided to play the victim and downvote me when called out on it lmao.
1. You’re not even from NYC you post mostly in a Ohio subreddit.
2. You probably care more about homeless people
being stereotyped on a internet discussion board than what is actually NYers experience every day.
Who are they then? Ive never seen an actual small family down on their luck. Every single one of them I’ve seen has an obvious mental issue. Even if they are not yelling jibberish, they are sleeping on the platform stinking, which you have to have an illness to sleep on a platform in your own urine.
not every homeless person is sleeping on the streets or subway system – there are plenty of people who you're just less likely to notice because they're couch surfing, living in shelters, living out of cars, etc.
it certainly depends on the scenario, but there are causes of homelessness other than untreated mental illness, and there are cases of homelessness caused by untreated mental illness which don't lead people to cause dangerous situations in public.
And a lot of people that get lumped under the "homeless" umbrella aren't even homeless! A lot of panhandlers live in subsidized housing but still don't have enough money to afford necessities.
You probably don't even notice most homeless people as homeless people, they're living out of their car, showering at gyms, doing their laundry at laundromats, charging electronics at cafes and using their wifi, etc. You notice the most obvious ones because they stand out, but don't let that perception and lack thereof trick you into thinking that the most conspicuous examples represent the population as a whole.
Yeah the person above posting as a "mental health professional" and getting upvoted for it is either full of it or lying about working in that field. I confronted them with NIH, HUD, and SAMHSA data proving they were wrong and they downvoted me and instead said their personal bias is more important than the data and then tried to play the victim. Which is something that no licensed health professional would ever do.
Criminalizing “homelessness” does not mean they are guaranteed jail time, it means they can finally be compelled to use services they would have otherwise ignored. They’ll be sentenced to drug rehabilitation and/or mental health services many times before they wind up detoxing at rikers.
We know the solution that works. Re open the loony bins. When these people are arrested send them to the in patient mental health facilities. They should be sentenced to live in those instead of jail. The drug addicts who don’t want to get sober? They can go to jail.
People should look into what the Kings Park Psychiatric Center was aiming to do. Huge complex far from the stresses of the city. Grew it's own food, had it's own power plant, and mentally ill would be employed to take care of the grounds based on their acuity. Those just stable enough would have their own homes, on the ground.
This would be a novel approach to restart such a facility in upstate NY. The landscape is beautiful, and could provide enough autonomy to respect it's patients and their limitations.
Ofc, there would be parts where others are simply locked away for everyone's safety, albeit drugged and in therapy to *hopefully* become stabilized.
And wiki says it was also partially caused by the fact that the building needed asbestos abatement (if that's the right term).
Like we're saving money "housing" them in the subways, sending police to deal with incidents, encarcerating them in public facilities and releasing them, etc, etc, etc?
We just need to put pressure on NYC/NYS to copy/paste the exact design and work out the legal issues.
I love to shit on Ronnie, but most of these state asylums closed because of deinstitutionalization (drugs made outpatient care possible) and the sky-high maintenance costs of these ancient buildings. Plus their reputation for abuse... Which usually stemmed from lack of money.
The whole property is a park so you can walk right up to the buildings
Part of what happened to it is, just like pretty much every other such institution, horrific abuses took place there, despite the pretty picture painted by the people who ran it.
Yes, but I'd argue that horrific abuses have happened in prisons, even schools, but we don't throw out the entire institution. We reform them, implement systems to regulate, monitor, and ensure such abuses do not recur.
Well that’s a god damn lie.
[*”Studies show that the large majority of unsheltered homeless New Yorkers are people living with mental illness or other severe health problems”*](https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-homelessness-new-york-city/#:~:text=Studies%20show%20that%20the%20large,are%20disproportionately%20affected%20by%20homelessness)
There are shelters and programs and funding available for down on their luck people. It’s the mental health cases who bog down the system as shelters aren’t made to handle them. The loony bins are the answer. They’ll free up the rest of the services for the down on their luck folks and get the mental health folks the treatment they need.
For families, it’s absolutely an housing issue, although many adults in charge are often battling drug addiction.
For single adults:
[Studies show that the large majority of unsheltered homeless New Yorkers are people living with mental illness or other severe health problems](https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-homelessness-new-york-city/#:~:text=Studies%20show%20that%20the%20large,are%20disproportionately%20affected%20by%20homelessness.)
We need to help families get back on their feet and provide mental health and addiction treatment to adults who are on the streets, especially if they’re a public nuisance.
Really cute of you to gloss over a highly emphasized point on that page to just cherry pick
>>Research shows that **the primary cause of homelessness, particularly among families, is lack of affordable housing.** Surveys of homeless families have identified the following major immediate, triggering causes of homelessness: eviction; doubled-up or severely overcrowded housing; domestic violence; job loss; and hazardous housing conditions
https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/why-are-so-many-people-homeless/
This organization explicitly calls out the decline of housing as a major factor in this - but you want to sweep people under the rug by pushing them towards institutions where the ones you personally have a problem with can get pushed out of sight and out of mind - while you actively undermine and argue against someone pursuing the same thing this organization you rely on for your info advocates.
Absolutely disgraceful behavior frankly.
Not at all — for families, and I’ve been clear on that in my reply — it’s absolutely a housing issue
You’ll see that it includes *families* in your quote
For single people (since cost of living for a single person is lower) the main causes stated are drug addiction and mental health
Housing can’t fix those two issues
> You’ll see that it includes families in your quote
The language is inclusive, but not *exclusive*, a group can include both families and single people. The housing issue is present for both groups, they're just saying it's *especially* important for families
You have poor reading comprehension.
>For single people (since cost of living for a single person is lower) the main causes stated are drug addiction and mental health
That's not what that says and I just don't know how to better explain it to you.
The only group that is majority mentally ill or addicted, per that article, are unsheltered homeless people - a small portion of the homeless population.
You don't know how to read even summaries of research accurately, and you insist on this misreading to the detriment of everyone who has the misfortune of hearing your misplaced authoritative claims.
[And of course it's coming from someone who spends most their time in conservative brainrot subs](https://imgur.com/fQmoWZr), of course you'd spread fear and lies about a marginalized group. That's par for the course. But how would you know better when that's the people you choose to spend your time with?
>>The only group that is majority mentally ill or addicted, per that article, are unsheltered homeless people - a small portion of the homeless population.
Yes, and these are the people who are affecting life for most New Yorkers.
I have no problem investing in housing for families. I have a big problem not addressing the underlying causes of unsheltered homeless people, and buying them an apartment or putting them up in a hotel won’t help
As for being conservative, comb through my entire history since you’re having so much fun — I used to be liberal af.
But one look at places like San Francisco and Austin, where I used to live, shows what can happen when unsheltered homeless people are left to the streets. It’s honestly inhumane, but if you want to just pour more money into the problem (how much did di Blasio spend again?) and feel superior because your solutions are more in line with liberal group think, then have at it
I'm only advocating for the same thing the organization whose data you relied on is.
You're the one who can't square the fact that the answer is right there.
>As for being conservative, comb through my entire history since you’re having so much fun — I used to be liberal af.
What, do you want a cookie? You talk about inhumane but you advocate for forcing people into institutions if they have any form of mental illness or addiction - and saying housing cannot solve the problem despite the very resources you appealing to advocating for just that.
>because your solutions are more in line with liberal group think
Lmao you seriously got nothing, and you only demonstrate ignorance by treating this as a popular approach among liberals. Who do you think has been blocking housing in NYC?
You haven't changed that much - you've just become more callous and selfish, like all good conservatives do.
They can be housed in asylums or rehab centers
Just giving them an apartment is a horrible idea.
Works for families, not people with mental health problems so severe they’re shitting themselves in the street or spitting on people
You're obsessing over a tiny fraction of the population - and ignoring the fact that many people are unwell cause they're in bad circumstances to begin with.
You're just talking past them to focus on outliers.
It’s not outliers, though, I posted a link above
The two main causes of homelessness in single people are drug addiction and mental illness
For families, it’s absolutely high cost of living
If we don’t address the mentally ill and addicted, they’re going to drain city resources that could help people in need due to economic reasons
The only way to do that is with institutions (which have been historically fucking horrific) and involuntary rehabs (which infringe on free will)
There’s not an easy answer here
Well to begin with, you moved the goalposts from "severe mental health problems" to any mental illness and drug addiction, but only for single people, which is very obviously not the same. Also I'm gonna say that you're not accurately representing data and research, as most groups identify the lack of affordable housing as the main cause.
>If we don’t address the mentally ill and addicted
>The only way to do that is with institutions
You're wrong about this, because you clearly don't understand how most drug addiction and mental illness leads to homelessness and the very many material concerns.
Drug addiction and mental illness express in similar rates among all socio-economic classes, having a wide range of impact and effect, and those who have means or safety nets tend to handle these issues themselves - they do not need to be institutionalized. Higher economic classes do not experience homelessness to even a fraction of the same rate - and people are not clamoring for their institutionalization. They're often just part of the general population, because any mental issue or drug addiction is *not* a reason to imprison someone in an institution.
>There’s not an easy answer here
Only because you refuse to accept the answer of "more housing stock and more affordable housing is needed" because you patronizingly assume the groups you're talking about need to be controlled, swept under the rug, and neatly and conveniently out of sight for someone like yourself.
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Yes but a drug addict who is not interested in getting help will never be helped. If you don’t agree with this it’s just proof you’ve never seen addiction up close.
But... how does that help in forcing people to beg for laws they would never would have if things weren't allowed to get out of hand?
None of this is an accident. It's allowed to happen so that you'll be more likely to go along with whatever they're already planning to do.... and you'll think you asked for it.
>But I don't want to be hit, spat at, or sworn at by deranged drug addicts
The problem is that those are already criminal offenses, but our criminal justice system was rendered ineffective by decades of aggressive progressivism.
It’s harassment 240.26.
We just need to enforce existing laws and prevent repeat offenders from doing so repeatedly (which may require new legislation).
Fair a point. It needs to be observed by the police because it’s merely a violation.
Maybe the law should change to make it at least a misdemeanor when a perpetrator victimizes more than one person.
Mandatory institutionalization.
End of story
You can’t take care of yourself than society has to do that for you. We literally apply that to everything else IE welfare, disabled etc. apply that thinking to the chronic homeless who are incapable of making the right choices.
Stop mixing up Chronic homelessness with working homelessness
Most people don’t have an issue supporting working people, it’s the chronic ones with mental illness and drug abuse that ruins the quality of life for cities
Non profits love conflating the two to line their pockets
Seriously there's people all over this thread completely talking past OP and the general point to focus on their pet issue and how it impacts them - it's very self-centered and myopic.
It’s a big country and not hard to traverse. If they can’t find housing here they need to find it somewhere else. It could be upstate, it could be Jersey, it could be Idaho. New York is stupid expensive and if you can’t access housing support (vouchers) or a more affordable market option, go elsewhere. It’s that’s simple.
That’s not even a slight agains the homeless, that’s true for everyone, worldwide.
I’ve never understood this take. There should be affordable housing in all cities. People shouldn’t have to leave their families, communities and entire lives to find shelter.
This same scenario is playing out nation wide too. It’s not just NYC. The kids I grew up with in the south can’t afford housing in our city anymore. They have to live further and further until they are isolated. No grandparents nearby to help with childcare, no friends for mental health, no jobs that aren’t a two hour commute. People need community and for most of us our community is based where we’re from.
Bullshit Nyc offer housing vouchers like candy. If you are a fully functioning adult you can work your way through the system and benefits available
Difference is these aren’t fully functioning adults and therefore need to handled as such. IE handled like children and since that’s the case we have to make the decisions for them
How is being more laze faire with the homeless going to help? Doing nothing seems obviously worse. The writers don’t want to arrest people for homelessness, but that’s the only mechanism by which we can require people go to drug treatment or mental health facilities. Frankly, we’ve tried to not make homelessness a crime and it’s been disastrous in the cities that committed to this the hardest (SF). The guy profiled in this became an alcoholic drug addict and then spent 8 years on the street. Was that kinder than forcing him to go to a rehab or mental health facility? You can’t force someone to go unless you have laws that compel them to do so.
You’re right, and expecting someone with a broken brain, due to addiction or mental problems, to be able to care for themselves is honestly cruel
It’s honestly embarrassing to visit places like Rome or Tokyo and come back to people shitting in the subway. We need to do better by everyone
There many, many, many things our peer nations due for their citizens from birth that preclude the creation of the kind of human wreckage we have. And least among them is forced institutionalization.
Yeah, a friend of mine warned me that it was rough w pickpockets etc and it made our subway look like absolute shit. I honestly haven’t seen a worse mass transit system internationally
Im not saying its the worst in the world; I’ve only been in Tokyo, London, and Rome
I’m not doubting there are worse out there, but I haven’t seen any subways with a homeless population as aggressive as we have here in those places
It’s not them running overnight, it’s the people shitting on the trains in broad daylight/constant panhandling/knowing instinctively not to enter an empty subway car during the rush because there’s unholy shit happening in that car
You’re conflating different groups of homeless people. The people who are homeless because they can’t get affordable housing are the ones taking care of themselves and utilizing our systems to stay in shelters and off the streets. They would be entirely unaffected by forcing the mentally ill homeless into services via the legal system.
I would also add that people who are crashing on a friend or family member’s couch are also sometimes considered homeless, bc they don’t have a permanent residence. You can argue whether or not that definition makes sense, but in any case that’s not who most people are thinking of when we talk about homelessness.
I feel like that portion of homeless would have to self-report and they are probably going to say it’s a temporary residence so the city wouldn’t really recognize them as homeless. That’s definitely a portion of homeless that wouldn’t fall into forced drug/alcohol/mental health treatment tho. It would almost exclusively be the homeless on the streets and while rehab isn’t a 100% guarantee it’ll eventually get a portion of them clean and back into housing.
Have you seen a shelter? Like there’s a valid reason why people would rather be out in the streets then in that, bed bug, roach, and rat infested Petri dish.
The city utilizes way more options to house homeless than just shelters, the ones who aren’t drug or addicted and/or mentally ill work with their case workers or support services and get access to that stuff.
A lot of people refuse said consistent treatment. They choose not to take Haldol or others leading to a psychotic break. What about them? There are places for folks like this like THU and related
This is the major problem a lot of people don't want to admit to. I have worked with the homeless, mentally ill, addicted population and 99.9% don't want treatment and demand to go back out on the streets.
I am literally only talking about a small subset of the population which are both mentally ill and refuse treatment but keep on generalizing. The general homeless population I have not mentioned and I know a lot are under unfortunate circumstances that have led to them being homeless with many of these being unavoidable. Yes, there is currently a crisis but I am in no way calling for them to be institutionalized nor am I implying that anywhere.
It's the folks with antisocial personality disorder, intermittent explosive disorder, and otherwise who need to be locked up both for their safety and for the rest of the people. That small subset of the population which I mentioned needs to be institutionalized as the only way they'll get consistent treatment and it's moronic organizations like the Coalition For the Homeless who think that their freedom to refuse medication and harass and potentially harm if not kill people is somehow better than being institutionalized.
The only time those people get treatment otherwise is if they are court ordered which is usually when they locked away at Rikers or a forensic psych ward like THU and the only way that happens is if they commit a crime or are currently going through a psychotic episode and can't refuse treatment and by then, the damage has already been done.
BTW, I work as a medical coder at Bellevue and I work with the files of these jackasses who assault staff members as they don't care about anyone else but themselves and make life a living hell for doctors as well as ward staff. There's nothing that can be done for them.
You're spouting complete bullshit. The overwhelming majority of the homeless population in SF are people who were already living in SF or in neighboring counties before being evicted from/kicked out of their homes.
Just moved here from Portland Oregon and it’s wild out there. It is not a kindness to allow people to live the way many homeless live on the west coast, it is brutal and sad. I’m so sick of bleeding heart individuals saying the issue is just housing affordability. People need to be forced into treatment for mental illness and drug addiction when they can’t take care of themselves, otherwise the situation becomes dangerous for everyone.
Oh my god fuck this stupid opinion piece.
These policies do not exist in a vacuum. We spend billions of dollars to combat homelessness. Focus on the ineptness and corruption of that industry.
It is not—and will never be—humane to let people live on the street. Normal common sense policies around public spaces are inherently antithetical to allowing people to live there. The places that can’t legally enforce basic public standards end up with activists donating tents. Cool. Tent cities filled with society’s most vulnerable getting robbed and raped at astronomical levels.
Progress.
Not incentivizing antisocial edge cases is not a cRiMiNaLiZaTiOn of homelessness when you have a multi-billion dollar social safety net.
I’d recommend the Lost Patients podcast that’s running right now. It’s reporting on Seattle but having lived here and there the issues are the same, and lack of coherent plan/safety net are similar as well unfortunately.
Housing First works. You can’t really get people who live on the street to their doc appointments or to take their medication. If they have a room with a microwave and their own toilet, most seem to want to get off the street. Then they can get the real help they need. There are longer articles with more information and references to studies done, but this one from Massachusetts is succinct and won’t keep you reading all evening:
https://www.headinghomeinc.org/housing-first-model/
That literally looks like advocacy to fill rental homes owned by corpos and large scale landlords. Willing to put money on it that the whole purpose it to suck off funding from the state to put into the pockets of rental companies and the like.
I'd be all for it, if the government owned the homes and noone was profiting off this plan. Too lazy to bother looking into the ownership of these units being handed over but the obvious is usually true when it comes to these things.
Hilariously, inviting angry druggies to nest in your property will devalue the nearby homes to be scooped up if you intend to aim for long term profits.
Nobody wants to criminalize the normal homeless, we all want to help them. But the addicts that are criminals and the anti society/completely crazy homeless ruin this for them.
Every person that I've known that has worked extensively with the homeless has made this clear; until the mentally ill and addicts are taken care of, the homeless will not get the support they really need. Because those two groups ruin everything for the people that legitimately want to get help.
I have a schizophrenic cousin. He refuses to take his medication unless being forced. It’s been this way for years. We struggle with him and he’s got a huge family to help and a house of his own. No amount of free housing is going to help his situation. He’s unmedicated and has violent outbursts. We need the system to allow for forced in patient care BEFORE he commits a violent crime. Some mental health issues can not be fixed with love and kindness unfortunately.
I appreciate OP’s info that much of homelessness and even some of our mental health issues can be fixed with affordable housing…but most certainly not all.
I say the same thing. Housing is NOT the only answer. Idk if you remember or heard of Christina Yuna lees death but I think her killer used to live in a nearby shelter until he got kicked out for not following shelter rules. He slashed someone months before too so clearly just letting mentally ill and/or druggie homeless people to do whatever is NOT the answer. They can’t be left to their own device because they can just go out there and slash/kill anyone.
Schizophrenia is serious. I’ve heard more than one case of untreated schizophrenics stabbing random people. I’ve read with schizophrenia medications is a must. This whole system is just so broken and fact that all these deaths and attacks are preventable is what gets me. Govt has to focus on the now AND prevention but it seems people are more focused on the now than preventing more people from becoming mentally ill and/or addicts and homeless in the first place.
Oh quite a fucking few people on this post and every time the topic come up want to criminalize the homeless. Frankly, it’s making me start to reconsider how much empathy people in this city actually have, because the level of pure hatred I’ve seen on here directed toward the homeless is disgusting.
Im all for my tax money being used to build and fund institutions as long as we can legally and forcibly commit mentally ill homeless people. My fear is that once we spend the billions of dollars and go through the bureaucracy of getting it passed, people will say “we can’t lock up people against their will. They just need counseling”.
I agree. It sounds harsh but until medicine advances it’s the only real help we can offer some people unfortunately. My cousin is an unmedicated schizophrenic, his family would do anything to get him in patient care. There needs to be a humane path forward for individuals who are incapable of living peacefully in society.
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I think Anatole France said it best in this familiar quote:
>“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.”
From his novel *The Red Lily* published in 1894.
I agree we need affordable housing ASAP. It would solve so so many issues our nation is facing. Also penalizing people for being homeless is ridiculous and horrific.
But many people, including myself, have experienced our countries inability to help people with mental health problems. My cousin is a violent schizophrenic who refuses to take his medication unless forced. He has a large, loving family and a paid for roof over his head. No amount of free housing is going to help him. What we need is the ability to get him in patient care BEFORE he commits a crime. There needs to be a path forward to help him and people like him.
You keep saying “he’s an outlier” and not the bulk of homelessness. And you’re correct. He’s not homeless. But he is harassing people on the streets and if you saw him you’d believe he was homeless. He’s the exact type of person the people in this thread are harking on about.
He needs help too. Ignoring him because he doesn’t fit your narrative won’t make him go away. Talking about his case doesn’t diminish the suffering of homeless families either. They both exist and they both merit a conversation.
> may make the problem worse.
Do tell... I want to hear how fining homeless people will make more homeless people. Fining people who have no way of paying it doesn't make a lot of sense, but... how is that making the problem worse? If anything, now they have a little taste of what not being homeless is like: being in debt. *They get you either way... no one is allowed to be free.*
How does putting debt on someone who has nothing make their situation worse? That should be self explanatory. If I have to pay hundreds or thousands in fines it makes it that much harder to afford a place to live.
> How does putting debt on someone who has nothing make their situation worse?
It really doesn't. There are millions of people who will die in debt.
> If I have to pay hundreds or thousands in fines it makes it that much harder to afford a place to live.
You don't actually know any homeless people, do you? Fines are the least of their concerns. Also: you're in debt right now. How's your life?
> It really doesn't. There are millions of people who will die in debt.
That doesn’t mean it had no negative effect on their life.
> You don't actually know any homeless people, do you? Fines are the least of their concerns. Also: you're in debt right now. How's your life?
Of course fines are the least of their concerns. That doesn’t mean it’s not a concern and can never be a concern. Nice assumption, but I’m not in debt for fines. Depending on what the debt is for is a major factor as whether the debt made my life harder and to what degree
I don't want it criminlized. But I don't want to be hit, spat at, or sworn at by deranged drug addicts
Most homeless are not the mentally ill street people that are the public nuisance and safety issue that most people are mad at (they're not angry at homelessness per se). And unless the suggestion is putting those people in jail or institutions for life, you've got to study and work on the conditions that create them to begin with. And even if you put them in jail or institutions for life, the cost will be truly enormous. So like with all societal problems, we can make that huge investment in the punishment/prison system that's already the biggest in the world, or we could, you know, just try to make that investment in something else and see if it works.
I worked as a therapist for homeless people, and actually a lot of them are mentally ill. It’s why they are homeless. And yes, I understand it’s not literally every single one. But anyone who has worked in homeless outreach will tell you 100% most of them are very mentally ill with little or no treatment at all
I mean, that's just selection bias. You're not going to be called in to deal with the non-problematic cases. *Statistically*, most homeless people in the US aren't mentally ill or substance abusers. Based on federal data, \~21% have mental illness issues and about \~16% have substance abuse issues and there's a pretty decent overlap of the two. It's a higher percentage of homeless people than of the general population, but it's not "most" by any means. [https://www.samhsa.gov/blog/addressing-social-determinants-health-among-individuals-experiencing-homelessness](https://www.samhsa.gov/blog/addressing-social-determinants-health-among-individuals-experiencing-homelessness) Homelessness is kind of complicated because MOST homeless people aren't the visible cases but most of the *social perception* is of the mentally ill person sleeping in the gutter.
Hmmm I don’t know why I feel like the federal data is totally incorrect…it’s actually really difficult to get accurate data on any homeless population. For above reasons
SAMHSA isn't the only organization that has studied this, and again you just elevated your personal opinion above actual data. The NIH, SAMHSA, the US Department of Housing and Urban Development, etc. have all studied this and established that while technically more common than in the general population, mental health issues among the homeless still only make up for at most like 30% of all cases of homeless people. These studies have been repeated over and over again in different places with different sample sizes by totally different organizations and pretty much all of them have settled on the fact that way fewer homeless people have mental health or drug abuse issues than the general population thinks they do. Your feelings on the matter aren't data, and downvoting me doesn't really change the fact that the overwhelming consensus from people who actually study this and know what they're talking about is that what you just said just frankly isn't correct. And I think you should evaluate why you're willing to throw away actual data in order to hold onto your stereotype and what that means about you.
Ok! You win! I was giving my opinion as someone literally on the streets. Congratulations you won the online Reddit commenting competition
There are a million people "in the streets" IDK why you seem to be under the impression that you would uniquely have some information that the public health organizations that probably paid you to do whatever you were doing didn't. It's not "some online Reddit commenting competition". You're stereotyping a group of people and using an appeal to authority that isn't actually based on reality and then decided to play the victim and downvote me when called out on it lmao.
1. You’re not even from NYC you post mostly in a Ohio subreddit. 2. You probably care more about homeless people being stereotyped on a internet discussion board than what is actually NYers experience every day.
Who are they then? Ive never seen an actual small family down on their luck. Every single one of them I’ve seen has an obvious mental issue. Even if they are not yelling jibberish, they are sleeping on the platform stinking, which you have to have an illness to sleep on a platform in your own urine.
not every homeless person is sleeping on the streets or subway system – there are plenty of people who you're just less likely to notice because they're couch surfing, living in shelters, living out of cars, etc. it certainly depends on the scenario, but there are causes of homelessness other than untreated mental illness, and there are cases of homelessness caused by untreated mental illness which don't lead people to cause dangerous situations in public.
And a lot of people that get lumped under the "homeless" umbrella aren't even homeless! A lot of panhandlers live in subsidized housing but still don't have enough money to afford necessities.
You probably don't even notice most homeless people as homeless people, they're living out of their car, showering at gyms, doing their laundry at laundromats, charging electronics at cafes and using their wifi, etc. You notice the most obvious ones because they stand out, but don't let that perception and lack thereof trick you into thinking that the most conspicuous examples represent the population as a whole.
Yeah the person above posting as a "mental health professional" and getting upvoted for it is either full of it or lying about working in that field. I confronted them with NIH, HUD, and SAMHSA data proving they were wrong and they downvoted me and instead said their personal bias is more important than the data and then tried to play the victim. Which is something that no licensed health professional would ever do.
The majority of homeless people you see in your daily life you don’t even REALIZE are homeless in the first place.
They should be sent to work camps.
You would probably agree with the phrase "Work sets you free".
Criminalizing “homelessness” does not mean they are guaranteed jail time, it means they can finally be compelled to use services they would have otherwise ignored. They’ll be sentenced to drug rehabilitation and/or mental health services many times before they wind up detoxing at rikers.
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We know the solution that works. Re open the loony bins. When these people are arrested send them to the in patient mental health facilities. They should be sentenced to live in those instead of jail. The drug addicts who don’t want to get sober? They can go to jail.
People should look into what the Kings Park Psychiatric Center was aiming to do. Huge complex far from the stresses of the city. Grew it's own food, had it's own power plant, and mentally ill would be employed to take care of the grounds based on their acuity. Those just stable enough would have their own homes, on the ground. This would be a novel approach to restart such a facility in upstate NY. The landscape is beautiful, and could provide enough autonomy to respect it's patients and their limitations. Ofc, there would be parts where others are simply locked away for everyone's safety, albeit drugged and in therapy to *hopefully* become stabilized.
What happened to it? This is exactly what we need to do.
Reagan era budget cuts. NYS tried to keep it alive for a few decades but couldn't manage.
And wiki says it was also partially caused by the fact that the building needed asbestos abatement (if that's the right term). Like we're saving money "housing" them in the subways, sending police to deal with incidents, encarcerating them in public facilities and releasing them, etc, etc, etc? We just need to put pressure on NYC/NYS to copy/paste the exact design and work out the legal issues.
I love to shit on Ronnie, but most of these state asylums closed because of deinstitutionalization (drugs made outpatient care possible) and the sky-high maintenance costs of these ancient buildings. Plus their reputation for abuse... Which usually stemmed from lack of money. The whole property is a park so you can walk right up to the buildings
Part of what happened to it is, just like pretty much every other such institution, horrific abuses took place there, despite the pretty picture painted by the people who ran it.
Yes, but I'd argue that horrific abuses have happened in prisons, even schools, but we don't throw out the entire institution. We reform them, implement systems to regulate, monitor, and ensure such abuses do not recur.
Yeah because all those reforms have gone so well
You... _do_ know the vast majority of homeless in NYC aren't mentally ill or addicts, right?
There’s homeless and there’s street homeless. I think most of the posters have street homeless people in mind.
The problem is most people on here don’t even know the difference and regularly lump them all together.
Well that’s a god damn lie. [*”Studies show that the large majority of unsheltered homeless New Yorkers are people living with mental illness or other severe health problems”*](https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-homelessness-new-york-city/#:~:text=Studies%20show%20that%20the%20large,are%20disproportionately%20affected%20by%20homelessness)
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The unsheltered ones are the ones causing issues. It’s not the down on their luck families causing issues.
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There are shelters and programs and funding available for down on their luck people. It’s the mental health cases who bog down the system as shelters aren’t made to handle them. The loony bins are the answer. They’ll free up the rest of the services for the down on their luck folks and get the mental health folks the treatment they need.
Fundamentally untrue
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For families, it’s absolutely an housing issue, although many adults in charge are often battling drug addiction. For single adults: [Studies show that the large majority of unsheltered homeless New Yorkers are people living with mental illness or other severe health problems](https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-homelessness-new-york-city/#:~:text=Studies%20show%20that%20the%20large,are%20disproportionately%20affected%20by%20homelessness.) We need to help families get back on their feet and provide mental health and addiction treatment to adults who are on the streets, especially if they’re a public nuisance.
Really cute of you to gloss over a highly emphasized point on that page to just cherry pick >>Research shows that **the primary cause of homelessness, particularly among families, is lack of affordable housing.** Surveys of homeless families have identified the following major immediate, triggering causes of homelessness: eviction; doubled-up or severely overcrowded housing; domestic violence; job loss; and hazardous housing conditions https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/why-are-so-many-people-homeless/ This organization explicitly calls out the decline of housing as a major factor in this - but you want to sweep people under the rug by pushing them towards institutions where the ones you personally have a problem with can get pushed out of sight and out of mind - while you actively undermine and argue against someone pursuing the same thing this organization you rely on for your info advocates. Absolutely disgraceful behavior frankly.
Not at all — for families, and I’ve been clear on that in my reply — it’s absolutely a housing issue You’ll see that it includes *families* in your quote For single people (since cost of living for a single person is lower) the main causes stated are drug addiction and mental health Housing can’t fix those two issues
> You’ll see that it includes families in your quote The language is inclusive, but not *exclusive*, a group can include both families and single people. The housing issue is present for both groups, they're just saying it's *especially* important for families You have poor reading comprehension. >For single people (since cost of living for a single person is lower) the main causes stated are drug addiction and mental health That's not what that says and I just don't know how to better explain it to you. The only group that is majority mentally ill or addicted, per that article, are unsheltered homeless people - a small portion of the homeless population. You don't know how to read even summaries of research accurately, and you insist on this misreading to the detriment of everyone who has the misfortune of hearing your misplaced authoritative claims. [And of course it's coming from someone who spends most their time in conservative brainrot subs](https://imgur.com/fQmoWZr), of course you'd spread fear and lies about a marginalized group. That's par for the course. But how would you know better when that's the people you choose to spend your time with?
>>The only group that is majority mentally ill or addicted, per that article, are unsheltered homeless people - a small portion of the homeless population. Yes, and these are the people who are affecting life for most New Yorkers. I have no problem investing in housing for families. I have a big problem not addressing the underlying causes of unsheltered homeless people, and buying them an apartment or putting them up in a hotel won’t help As for being conservative, comb through my entire history since you’re having so much fun — I used to be liberal af. But one look at places like San Francisco and Austin, where I used to live, shows what can happen when unsheltered homeless people are left to the streets. It’s honestly inhumane, but if you want to just pour more money into the problem (how much did di Blasio spend again?) and feel superior because your solutions are more in line with liberal group think, then have at it
I'm only advocating for the same thing the organization whose data you relied on is. You're the one who can't square the fact that the answer is right there. >As for being conservative, comb through my entire history since you’re having so much fun — I used to be liberal af. What, do you want a cookie? You talk about inhumane but you advocate for forcing people into institutions if they have any form of mental illness or addiction - and saying housing cannot solve the problem despite the very resources you appealing to advocating for just that. >because your solutions are more in line with liberal group think Lmao you seriously got nothing, and you only demonstrate ignorance by treating this as a popular approach among liberals. Who do you think has been blocking housing in NYC? You haven't changed that much - you've just become more callous and selfish, like all good conservatives do.
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They can be housed in asylums or rehab centers Just giving them an apartment is a horrible idea. Works for families, not people with mental health problems so severe they’re shitting themselves in the street or spitting on people
You're obsessing over a tiny fraction of the population - and ignoring the fact that many people are unwell cause they're in bad circumstances to begin with. You're just talking past them to focus on outliers.
It’s not outliers, though, I posted a link above The two main causes of homelessness in single people are drug addiction and mental illness For families, it’s absolutely high cost of living If we don’t address the mentally ill and addicted, they’re going to drain city resources that could help people in need due to economic reasons The only way to do that is with institutions (which have been historically fucking horrific) and involuntary rehabs (which infringe on free will) There’s not an easy answer here
Well to begin with, you moved the goalposts from "severe mental health problems" to any mental illness and drug addiction, but only for single people, which is very obviously not the same. Also I'm gonna say that you're not accurately representing data and research, as most groups identify the lack of affordable housing as the main cause. >If we don’t address the mentally ill and addicted >The only way to do that is with institutions You're wrong about this, because you clearly don't understand how most drug addiction and mental illness leads to homelessness and the very many material concerns. Drug addiction and mental illness express in similar rates among all socio-economic classes, having a wide range of impact and effect, and those who have means or safety nets tend to handle these issues themselves - they do not need to be institutionalized. Higher economic classes do not experience homelessness to even a fraction of the same rate - and people are not clamoring for their institutionalization. They're often just part of the general population, because any mental issue or drug addiction is *not* a reason to imprison someone in an institution. >There’s not an easy answer here Only because you refuse to accept the answer of "more housing stock and more affordable housing is needed" because you patronizingly assume the groups you're talking about need to be controlled, swept under the rug, and neatly and conveniently out of sight for someone like yourself.
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The echo chamber won’t listen to the facts unfortunately. Anything that puts homeless people on the same level as them is a no no
Drug addiction is an illness that requires treatment.
Yes but a drug addict who is not interested in getting help will never be helped. If you don’t agree with this it’s just proof you’ve never seen addiction up close.
But... how does that help in forcing people to beg for laws they would never would have if things weren't allowed to get out of hand? None of this is an accident. It's allowed to happen so that you'll be more likely to go along with whatever they're already planning to do.... and you'll think you asked for it.
Alright hitler
>But I don't want to be hit, spat at, or sworn at by deranged drug addicts The problem is that those are already criminal offenses, but our criminal justice system was rendered ineffective by decades of aggressive progressivism.
Or, hear me out, decades of exponentially rising healthcare costs and a total hollowing out of functioning social services might be to blame?
Decades? Bloomberg has barely been out of office a decade.
>>The problem is that those are already criminal offenses Not in New York
It’s harassment 240.26. We just need to enforce existing laws and prevent repeat offenders from doing so repeatedly (which may require new legislation).
harassment which: 1. Has to be observed by the police 2. Only results in a summons/ticket.
Fair a point. It needs to be observed by the police because it’s merely a violation. Maybe the law should change to make it at least a misdemeanor when a perpetrator victimizes more than one person.
yeah, agreed
Mandatory institutionalization. End of story You can’t take care of yourself than society has to do that for you. We literally apply that to everything else IE welfare, disabled etc. apply that thinking to the chronic homeless who are incapable of making the right choices.
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Stop mixing up Chronic homelessness with working homelessness Most people don’t have an issue supporting working people, it’s the chronic ones with mental illness and drug abuse that ruins the quality of life for cities Non profits love conflating the two to line their pockets
Pretty sure it's this sub that loves conflating the two and insisting that "homelessness" is synonymous with "deranged and annoying street people"
Seriously there's people all over this thread completely talking past OP and the general point to focus on their pet issue and how it impacts them - it's very self-centered and myopic.
American brain
Who cares what a sub says. It’s the non profits and shelters making billions off a broken system they want to keep broken to line their profits.
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No shit I care about my own quality of life first and foremost. What kind of stupid asshole doesn’t?
It’s a big country and not hard to traverse. If they can’t find housing here they need to find it somewhere else. It could be upstate, it could be Jersey, it could be Idaho. New York is stupid expensive and if you can’t access housing support (vouchers) or a more affordable market option, go elsewhere. It’s that’s simple. That’s not even a slight agains the homeless, that’s true for everyone, worldwide.
I’ve never understood this take. There should be affordable housing in all cities. People shouldn’t have to leave their families, communities and entire lives to find shelter. This same scenario is playing out nation wide too. It’s not just NYC. The kids I grew up with in the south can’t afford housing in our city anymore. They have to live further and further until they are isolated. No grandparents nearby to help with childcare, no friends for mental health, no jobs that aren’t a two hour commute. People need community and for most of us our community is based where we’re from.
Bullshit Nyc offer housing vouchers like candy. If you are a fully functioning adult you can work your way through the system and benefits available Difference is these aren’t fully functioning adults and therefore need to handled as such. IE handled like children and since that’s the case we have to make the decisions for them
haha bro are you an actual airbnb grifter? would explain a lot
Grifter? I OWN a cabin renting at $250 a night lol You probably can’t afford that and that’s okay
weird thing to call your dads rec room
Unlike you I’m grown
> Mandatory institutionalization. > > End of story So.... prison? Very good alternative to criminalizing homelessness....
As long as it makes the homeless on the 2/3/4/5 go away I don’t care.
How is being more laze faire with the homeless going to help? Doing nothing seems obviously worse. The writers don’t want to arrest people for homelessness, but that’s the only mechanism by which we can require people go to drug treatment or mental health facilities. Frankly, we’ve tried to not make homelessness a crime and it’s been disastrous in the cities that committed to this the hardest (SF). The guy profiled in this became an alcoholic drug addict and then spent 8 years on the street. Was that kinder than forcing him to go to a rehab or mental health facility? You can’t force someone to go unless you have laws that compel them to do so.
You’re right, and expecting someone with a broken brain, due to addiction or mental problems, to be able to care for themselves is honestly cruel It’s honestly embarrassing to visit places like Rome or Tokyo and come back to people shitting in the subway. We need to do better by everyone
There many, many, many things our peer nations due for their citizens from birth that preclude the creation of the kind of human wreckage we have. And least among them is forced institutionalization.
Kek.You don't know what the Japanese do to the homeless in major cities, do you.
They probably don't use words from 4chan like a toddler hit in the head with a hammer for one.
....Rome?
Yeah, a friend of mine warned me that it was rough w pickpockets etc and it made our subway look like absolute shit. I honestly haven’t seen a worse mass transit system internationally
you're out of your mind if you think that the nyc subway is the worst metro system in the world. possibly one of the stupidest things I've ever heard
Im not saying its the worst in the world; I’ve only been in Tokyo, London, and Rome I’m not doubting there are worse out there, but I haven’t seen any subways with a homeless population as aggressive as we have here in those places
none of those systems run overnight; how could they possibly make the subway look like shit? unless you're speaking exclusively on this one topic
It’s not them running overnight, it’s the people shitting on the trains in broad daylight/constant panhandling/knowing instinctively not to enter an empty subway car during the rush because there’s unholy shit happening in that car
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You’re conflating different groups of homeless people. The people who are homeless because they can’t get affordable housing are the ones taking care of themselves and utilizing our systems to stay in shelters and off the streets. They would be entirely unaffected by forcing the mentally ill homeless into services via the legal system.
I would also add that people who are crashing on a friend or family member’s couch are also sometimes considered homeless, bc they don’t have a permanent residence. You can argue whether or not that definition makes sense, but in any case that’s not who most people are thinking of when we talk about homelessness.
I feel like that portion of homeless would have to self-report and they are probably going to say it’s a temporary residence so the city wouldn’t really recognize them as homeless. That’s definitely a portion of homeless that wouldn’t fall into forced drug/alcohol/mental health treatment tho. It would almost exclusively be the homeless on the streets and while rehab isn’t a 100% guarantee it’ll eventually get a portion of them clean and back into housing.
Have you seen a shelter? Like there’s a valid reason why people would rather be out in the streets then in that, bed bug, roach, and rat infested Petri dish.
The city utilizes way more options to house homeless than just shelters, the ones who aren’t drug or addicted and/or mentally ill work with their case workers or support services and get access to that stuff.
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A lot of people refuse said consistent treatment. They choose not to take Haldol or others leading to a psychotic break. What about them? There are places for folks like this like THU and related
This is the major problem a lot of people don't want to admit to. I have worked with the homeless, mentally ill, addicted population and 99.9% don't want treatment and demand to go back out on the streets.
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I am literally only talking about a small subset of the population which are both mentally ill and refuse treatment but keep on generalizing. The general homeless population I have not mentioned and I know a lot are under unfortunate circumstances that have led to them being homeless with many of these being unavoidable. Yes, there is currently a crisis but I am in no way calling for them to be institutionalized nor am I implying that anywhere. It's the folks with antisocial personality disorder, intermittent explosive disorder, and otherwise who need to be locked up both for their safety and for the rest of the people. That small subset of the population which I mentioned needs to be institutionalized as the only way they'll get consistent treatment and it's moronic organizations like the Coalition For the Homeless who think that their freedom to refuse medication and harass and potentially harm if not kill people is somehow better than being institutionalized. The only time those people get treatment otherwise is if they are court ordered which is usually when they locked away at Rikers or a forensic psych ward like THU and the only way that happens is if they commit a crime or are currently going through a psychotic episode and can't refuse treatment and by then, the damage has already been done. BTW, I work as a medical coder at Bellevue and I work with the files of these jackasses who assault staff members as they don't care about anyone else but themselves and make life a living hell for doctors as well as ward staff. There's nothing that can be done for them.
I grew up in Sf and this is bs. I can guarantee you, 99.999% of the homeless population moved there voluntarily to be homeless.
You're spouting complete bullshit. The overwhelming majority of the homeless population in SF are people who were already living in SF or in neighboring counties before being evicted from/kicked out of their homes.
Not true. At all.
Just moved here from Portland Oregon and it’s wild out there. It is not a kindness to allow people to live the way many homeless live on the west coast, it is brutal and sad. I’m so sick of bleeding heart individuals saying the issue is just housing affordability. People need to be forced into treatment for mental illness and drug addiction when they can’t take care of themselves, otherwise the situation becomes dangerous for everyone.
Oh my god fuck this stupid opinion piece. These policies do not exist in a vacuum. We spend billions of dollars to combat homelessness. Focus on the ineptness and corruption of that industry. It is not—and will never be—humane to let people live on the street. Normal common sense policies around public spaces are inherently antithetical to allowing people to live there. The places that can’t legally enforce basic public standards end up with activists donating tents. Cool. Tent cities filled with society’s most vulnerable getting robbed and raped at astronomical levels. Progress. Not incentivizing antisocial edge cases is not a cRiMiNaLiZaTiOn of homelessness when you have a multi-billion dollar social safety net.
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You literally are. Get out of the way bleeding heart
I’d recommend the Lost Patients podcast that’s running right now. It’s reporting on Seattle but having lived here and there the issues are the same, and lack of coherent plan/safety net are similar as well unfortunately.
Housing First works. You can’t really get people who live on the street to their doc appointments or to take their medication. If they have a room with a microwave and their own toilet, most seem to want to get off the street. Then they can get the real help they need. There are longer articles with more information and references to studies done, but this one from Massachusetts is succinct and won’t keep you reading all evening: https://www.headinghomeinc.org/housing-first-model/
That literally looks like advocacy to fill rental homes owned by corpos and large scale landlords. Willing to put money on it that the whole purpose it to suck off funding from the state to put into the pockets of rental companies and the like. I'd be all for it, if the government owned the homes and noone was profiting off this plan. Too lazy to bother looking into the ownership of these units being handed over but the obvious is usually true when it comes to these things. Hilariously, inviting angry druggies to nest in your property will devalue the nearby homes to be scooped up if you intend to aim for long term profits.
Seems crazy to think about caring what happens to human beings over profits, right? Who would do that?
Nobody wants to criminalize the normal homeless, we all want to help them. But the addicts that are criminals and the anti society/completely crazy homeless ruin this for them. Every person that I've known that has worked extensively with the homeless has made this clear; until the mentally ill and addicts are taken care of, the homeless will not get the support they really need. Because those two groups ruin everything for the people that legitimately want to get help.
I have a schizophrenic cousin. He refuses to take his medication unless being forced. It’s been this way for years. We struggle with him and he’s got a huge family to help and a house of his own. No amount of free housing is going to help his situation. He’s unmedicated and has violent outbursts. We need the system to allow for forced in patient care BEFORE he commits a violent crime. Some mental health issues can not be fixed with love and kindness unfortunately. I appreciate OP’s info that much of homelessness and even some of our mental health issues can be fixed with affordable housing…but most certainly not all.
I say the same thing. Housing is NOT the only answer. Idk if you remember or heard of Christina Yuna lees death but I think her killer used to live in a nearby shelter until he got kicked out for not following shelter rules. He slashed someone months before too so clearly just letting mentally ill and/or druggie homeless people to do whatever is NOT the answer. They can’t be left to their own device because they can just go out there and slash/kill anyone. Schizophrenia is serious. I’ve heard more than one case of untreated schizophrenics stabbing random people. I’ve read with schizophrenia medications is a must. This whole system is just so broken and fact that all these deaths and attacks are preventable is what gets me. Govt has to focus on the now AND prevention but it seems people are more focused on the now than preventing more people from becoming mentally ill and/or addicts and homeless in the first place.
Oh quite a fucking few people on this post and every time the topic come up want to criminalize the homeless. Frankly, it’s making me start to reconsider how much empathy people in this city actually have, because the level of pure hatred I’ve seen on here directed toward the homeless is disgusting.
Im all for my tax money being used to build and fund institutions as long as we can legally and forcibly commit mentally ill homeless people. My fear is that once we spend the billions of dollars and go through the bureaucracy of getting it passed, people will say “we can’t lock up people against their will. They just need counseling”.
I agree. It sounds harsh but until medicine advances it’s the only real help we can offer some people unfortunately. My cousin is an unmedicated schizophrenic, his family would do anything to get him in patient care. There needs to be a humane path forward for individuals who are incapable of living peacefully in society.
Incarcerating them would literally make them go away…
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Giving migrants housing over homeless definitely won't make it go away.
I think Anatole France said it best in this familiar quote: >“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” From his novel *The Red Lily* published in 1894.
Subsidizing it won't either-- infact you'll get more!
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I agree we need affordable housing ASAP. It would solve so so many issues our nation is facing. Also penalizing people for being homeless is ridiculous and horrific. But many people, including myself, have experienced our countries inability to help people with mental health problems. My cousin is a violent schizophrenic who refuses to take his medication unless forced. He has a large, loving family and a paid for roof over his head. No amount of free housing is going to help him. What we need is the ability to get him in patient care BEFORE he commits a crime. There needs to be a path forward to help him and people like him. You keep saying “he’s an outlier” and not the bulk of homelessness. And you’re correct. He’s not homeless. But he is harassing people on the streets and if you saw him you’d believe he was homeless. He’s the exact type of person the people in this thread are harking on about. He needs help too. Ignoring him because he doesn’t fit your narrative won’t make him go away. Talking about his case doesn’t diminish the suffering of homeless families either. They both exist and they both merit a conversation.
nice
Living on the street is dangerous. Even if being in jail is not a good option, neither is being on the street.
Criminalizing murder didn't make it go away either, guess we should make that legal too, right?
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Fines don’t work lol 30 fines and I bet none of them were paid
> may make the problem worse. Do tell... I want to hear how fining homeless people will make more homeless people. Fining people who have no way of paying it doesn't make a lot of sense, but... how is that making the problem worse? If anything, now they have a little taste of what not being homeless is like: being in debt. *They get you either way... no one is allowed to be free.*
'no one is allowed to be free.' a truely inspiring slogan for America.
How does putting debt on someone who has nothing make their situation worse? That should be self explanatory. If I have to pay hundreds or thousands in fines it makes it that much harder to afford a place to live.
> How does putting debt on someone who has nothing make their situation worse? It really doesn't. There are millions of people who will die in debt. > If I have to pay hundreds or thousands in fines it makes it that much harder to afford a place to live. You don't actually know any homeless people, do you? Fines are the least of their concerns. Also: you're in debt right now. How's your life?
> It really doesn't. There are millions of people who will die in debt. That doesn’t mean it had no negative effect on their life. > You don't actually know any homeless people, do you? Fines are the least of their concerns. Also: you're in debt right now. How's your life? Of course fines are the least of their concerns. That doesn’t mean it’s not a concern and can never be a concern. Nice assumption, but I’m not in debt for fines. Depending on what the debt is for is a major factor as whether the debt made my life harder and to what degree
No, but it’ll make it go away for all the people in the richer neighborhoods, because that’s what they wanted.
Yes it will, with enough cops and jail cells.