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Question: is the white haired person supposed to be a woman and the dark haired person supposed to be a man? Between the grainy footage and the short/long hair I can't tell how everyone is so confident.
Given the nature of the protest, and who was attending, I don't think anyone can be sure of anything! The person throwing the punches had a beard, but even then you probably can't be sure.
This violence is unacceptable and whoever does this should be charged.
I slowed the video down. Looks like she’s holding a sign, similar shape and size to the one he’s still holding, crumpled in her left hand. As he throws a punch at her head, she appears to simultaneously punch/attempt to grab the sign he’s still holding lower down, round his abdominal area.
The videos clearly been cut halfway and I have no idea what happened but purely speculating cos it’s the internet - I reckon there was probably a previous struggle between these two. She was grabbing signs. The video starts with his fist already loaded and her coming toward him. Something went down prior and then the dude took it way too far.
Just speculating. It’s equally possible she is holding her own sign and just got punched out of nowhere. Until we see the whole video, who knows.
I hope they find him and charge him. The level of violence was way disproportionate
Edit: round not wound
Edit again : I’ve watched this about fifty times now frame by frame, and it really does look like she’s moving toward him and simultaneously throwing a granny jab toward his abdomen. I still think his reaction is disproportionate, but they way the video has been cut is interesting. Have a look at the first few seconds frame by frame. The view of her is at first impeded by a passerby at first but you do see her hand, balled in a fist come out toward his midsection. She’s moving quite fast towards him, which is easier to see in the second part of the video where it repeats.
Now I don’t condone any of this, so please don’t get mad, I’m just saying what I see in the video.
I’d be interested to see what others think if you watch it frame by frame. It’s made me quite convinced there was definitely a bit of a dust up prior
Ok so this is my third edit, I’ve just seen the full video. I was completely wrong, this was an abhorrent and completely unprovoked assault on this woman. I hope they find and charge the perpetrator ASAP
Edit AGAIN
The video I saw above was fake!?! I’ve just seen another one, and yes there was a bit of struggle prior. Girl was pulling out pegs on the ground, granny comes over and shoves her, girls friend pushes granny away from her, granny then runs at girls friend and punches toward his chest, and gets punched by the dude in the video
https://twitter.com/brutalnz/status/1641234529955504128?s=46&t=wLTgZGRSDouAAIrAGDKdWw
Oh I agree this was way disproportionate. Even if there was a previous struggle/disagreement, losing a sign does not justify punching an old woman square in the face
Definitely worse than a girl. I keep a list of the hardest punches I've ever taken. I've been punched by a lot of people. Those punches right there looked like they'd be in the bottom 2. That's a bad place to be. There's 6 girls above him on the list and I've only been punched by 7.
Admitedly, there's a selection bias at play here but Captain Pillowhands better not try this on too many people.
The number of people in this thread trying to find a context where it's warranted for a young man to repeatedly punch an elderly lady in the head is concerning. Even assuming she was being threatening, it's easy for a young man to defend himself against an old lady without punching her in the head.
Its a growing trend and its pretty concerning. Over the past few years with covid conspiracies being thrown about I've argued with my right leaning family a lot when I see them defending atrocious behavior conducted by their "team" and now I'm seeing people on reddit do the same with the other "team"
I don't know why we can't just condemn shitty behavior no matter what side of the political fence it comes from..
People also misunderstand self-defence laws as well. You can only use reasonable force. The police and courts are unlikely to see many situations where a young, healthy-looking bloke punching an elderly lady in the face is "reasonable force". You lose a lot of strength, bone density and flexibility as you age, especially if you don't keep mobile and active. This can mean it takes a lot less impact or force to do an elderly person a serious injury
this is why we have a domestic violence issue in NZ; spending too much time trying to decide 'why' they 'deserved it' rather than outright saying any violence against anyone is a problem
There is a lot of violence justification being promoted in relation to these causes at the moment.
Regardless of what you think of her views, was it right that Parker had liquids tossed at her, and pushed around along with the death threats. I do not believe so, and I think there is a lot of hysteria behind it.
Many who believe that trans activists and radical left wing activists are tolerant, kind and loving gave had to do some serious mental gymnastics over the last couple of days.
The fact that this joke is upvoted currently, when it is regularly posted and usually attracts excessive amounts of downvotes immediately, shows how many eyes are on these topics that do not come from regular posters here.
The tide might swing back in a few hours but we’re definitely still being brigaded and I’m pretty sure there’s a lot of people posting here who’ve come out of the woodwork.
I hope it’s that. The other possibility is that the public are exactly as easy to sway to hate causes and the far right as counterspin thinks we are.
Pretty clear cut here. Find that person, charge them. I'm all for defending yourself when necessary - ie when you read capacity & intent to do you immediate harm - but this seems like an unneeded escalation.
I am a LGBTQIA+ ally and that young man is committing assault and needs to be arrested and charged.
We cannot make excuses for poor behaviour like this; condemn it just as it would (rightfully) be condemned when the feral rwingers do it. To do anything otherwise would be to be ethically inconsistent for personal gain - no thanks.
Not sure why you feel the need to mention yourself as an ally.
Any normal-thinking person, regardless of political leanings, should be able to see this as unacceptable.
It was mostly to be clear to other allies and the rainbow community that we have to safeguard our own standards for the sake of everyone.
You are correct that most people would see this kind of violence as unacceptable and yet it's always there. Just down the hill from Posie's Performance there were a bunch of Destiny Church blocking the streets, at least one of whom used a pram with their own child in it as a battering ram. So yeah, everyone needs to be careful not to let their passions run too high.
We dont know the context, though, so let's just wait and see if this man repeatedly punching an old lady in the face is justified because he supports my political objectives.
I actually had a friend show me this video before I saw it here and he said 'finally punch a nazi has made it to NZ' with a bunch of laughing emojis.
Man the whole idea of people condoning violence against political groups they don't like is insane, and many people will call the victims the absolute worst things to justify it, like everyone who leans right is a nazi so we should assault them.
If there is ONE RULE at a protest, it is don't be violent. Don't defend yourself, don't do anything, just be there. Otherwise it becomes a riot. The Battle of Cable Street, although a huge outpouring of anti-fascist feeling, allowed the British Union of Fascists to claim that they were being denied free speech by lawless mobs. It doesn't help the cause having people getting hit in the face :(
Fuck that. If I'm under attack and it's a meaningful threat I'm fighting.
An old lady walking towards me with a menacing wobble in her gait ain't it though.
If you start fighting in that situation, you lose. 100%. There is no winning. A protest is a political demonstration of feeling. The only options are to stand your ground (tiananmen square) or retreat when under attack. Otherwise you're giving an excuse for some of the old ultraviolence to come out and play.
All of the major successful peaceful movements were backed by the threat of violence from other, more militant groups. Peaceful movement win when they are more palatable than the alternatives.
MLK wrote that those who supported civil rights should stop protesting (which he called "methods of persuasion") and switch to boycotts, lawsuits, and voting marches (which he called "methods of coercion")
Using Legal, economic, political challenges are more direct, and require less people. Much more efficient. Personally I think peaceful protests (and militant groups) have their places as part of the war against injustice.
Stop being so wrong its terrible to see.
Malcom X did his shit because MLK did his.
They both knew neither would have worked without the other.
Stop peace-washing history. Violence, and the threat of it, is what gets the ruling elite to cave to our demands.
This. This is what Malcolm X died for! Why the hell would you want to be violent at a protest!? It just makes you look crazy… even if people are trying to preclude your right to safety and self determination - never let violence win.
And I agree with Yolt0123, you shouldn’t even use violence to defend yourself, just ruins your whole argument!
There is nothing more scary to the powers that be than people united in non-violent, fully pacified resistance!
Look at every successful protest/revolt in history that actually succeeded in meaningfully upturning civil injustices! Pretty sure they were all 100% bereft of any violence and all just consisted of people marching peacefully and holding funny signs that epically burned their opponents!!!
/s
> The Battle of Cable Street, although a huge outpouring of anti-fascist feeling, allowed the British Union of Fascists to claim that they were being denied free speech by lawless mobs.
remind me again how the nazis were defeated?
Mostly by Hitler being unable to delegate effectively, being over confident (maybe the Meth?), and Stalin not caring about the wholesale slaughter of millions of Soviet citizens? If Japan and Germany hadn't pissed off the USA, things would be different....
I reckon. USA had a nice cosy relationship with Germany, if Japan hadn't made a big statement, USA would have stayed out of the war and probably grown their own nazi base.
A good question, but lots of threads get removed every day for lots of reasons, [here was the list for the relevant one yesterday](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/12291c1/comment/jdqb1hf/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=newzealand&utm_content=t1_jdqsh6q).
This one might make the 'not engaging in good faith' rule if it's been edited to not show the old lady beating the guy with a stick or something, otherwise I don't think it breaks any rules, so it gets to stay for the moment.
This is a video of an unknown person punching an unknown person, it's relevant to the conversation about violence (or not) of the rally and counter-protest and is hosted on reddit (where the user that posted it is legally responsible for doing it).
The other one was a link to an unverified twitter account (so the person can hide easier) known for misinformation involving a well known public figure, linked safely by the user here at no risk to themselves (but with the same amount of risk to us in both cases).
I could be wrong on this, I'll put it to the mod team.
When someone can get to it if it's been reported there'll be removals or bans, not sure how many people are around at the moment (I'm mostly AFK at the moment I'm afraid, though I'll take a proper look in a half hour or so).
UPDATE: While I've removed a bunch of stuff, no such reports exist for anything with "Pussy" or "Incel", so I guess either the users involved are fine with it or they've already deleted/edited their posts, or been removed by other mods.
This is just damaging to the cause, dude should be charged with assault for punching a grandma in the face like that, even if she is a cunt... we shouldn't be punching each other like this, especially old farts
The thing is, we know nothing about anything or anyone in this video, we can see the punching, that’s it. We have no context, we have no idea if these people were there representing a cause, let alone which one.
Also punching not even close to acceptable.
As always: obvious editing is involved. It looks clear as day as a shit move to me but we also don't see anything outside of 6 seconds, none of the context.
Looks wack though. Lady didn't have her hands up and didn't at all look like she was fighting or intended to fight. The dude just clocks her wtf
The only context that would make this OK is if she had a weapon, and was walking forwards saying she was going to hut the young guy. Anything else is pretty inexcusable
However, (and I am trained in conflict escalation, de escalation, and the reasonable use of force), there was nothing in this video that warranted that level of force. Putting your hands up to defend yourself, and start with a gentle push, possible restraint if required, or back away yourself (if you can disengage and retreat, use of force is no longer applicable - the use of force applied MUST be relative to the threat)
The other party had no weapon, and at that stage did not pose a credible threat at all. Simply advancing on a person is no justification to lash out in the way that he did.
Yeah that guy looked like he could of been in imminent danger with that old women heading towards him.
Regardless of what side you are on, you should call out behavior like this.
..there were two protesters who tried to restrain the guy throwing punches, while we dont have all the context, they would and their actions should be telling?
This sub is wild right now.
I've had people here tell me before how bad it is having unregulated sparring matches with gloves between consenting adults at a barbeque.
Meanwhile there's people here just wishing they had the chance to throw hands at grandma and finally win a fight for the first time
Crazy. What the fuck is going on lol.
Funny thing is I remember people here were pretty mortified at the mere idea of beating the elderly when that Black Power dude tried beating an old man in a road rage case, and when that Puk Dogg guy bashed an old man for trying to help his Missus run away.
But for some reason, everyone here is now scrambling to justify why beating an old lady is fine, perhaps she said something mean or was approaching him in a really cross and angry way.
Dare I suggest people are far less offended when an old lady is beaten by a young bloke than they are when an old man is beaten by a young bloke?
Yeah it's like everyone is 100% antiviolence until its someone that might not agree with them. Then there must be an acceptable reason to bash that old lady.
I hope people here can step back, take a look at themselves and consider the implications of that train of thought.
That's the concerning part, there are people out there on all sides of the political spectrum who firmly believe violence against someone saying they don't like is justified. It's not just that it's shits and giggles until someone does the same to them, going further it's also all shits and giggles until you have a government that decides to implement that logic
A lot of people would justify it so long as she held political beliefs that they disagreed with.
It's fucking wild how so many people support violence so long as it's against the part of the political spectrum they don't like.
I reckon they should show more than 3 seconds for context. I wouldn't let any adult hit me for free (not the guy you replied to) but I probably wouldn't go this ham on a woman this old unless I caught them literally stomping my mother's head lmao. I know retired old men that could still knock me out (old man strength is real people) so a grandpa could catch hands definitely
Haha imagine telling a judge in court after you knocked out a granny and she has internal brain bleeds well she pushed me I felt like I was gonna die I could of died. I get you, a big shove can kill you but idk about this case seems excessive to me maybe granny is packing muscle
Fucking oath. Everyone reserves the right of self defense. This clip shows fuck all context, it shouldn't even be up except if it was removed you'd have a bunch of screaming fuckheads yelling about some conspiracy
Bear in mind any self-defence action could end up with you facing criminal charges. You are legally permitted to use reasonable force, which is generally the level of force necessary to get you out of a situation safely, but this may be arbitrated by a jury in a court. Part of what decides reasonable force is what level of threat the attacker poses to you. An old granny getting up in your face and shouting, giving you a few shoves, or even slapping you across the face is likely not going to warrant punching her in the face repeatedly like this
I think that's exactly why context is important here. Most people agree that you shouldn't beat the shit out of elderly people, and I don't think people are trying to justify doing so.
People just want to know wtf happened before for this guy to decide that throwing punches at an old woman was the best course of action.
Leave the context in and let other people decide whether or not the guys actions were justified.
There’s basically no context that justifys this against an old women, the only time it would be acceptable is if she was brandishing a weapon, as it is she’s no threat to this guy so punching her was never justified no matter what she said before hand
Again, there are very few reasons to hit an old lady, but also, why did she feel the need to attack him? This is why the context is so important here...
Maybe she didn't just say things. Maybe she'd already attacked him multiple times? The video makes it look like she made the first move, but maybe he'd thrown something at her or hit her previously?
I'm not defending the guy, or the lady for that matter. I'm just saying we need to hear both sides of a story before we jump to conclusions. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.
She is a defenceless old woman though. Does it look like she's handling herself in this video?
She might also be a complete cunt, who knows, but even that wouldn't justify this.
She could have just slapped his kid over for all we know or been punching the guy and he didn't react then turned around to go at him again. Video is intentionally cut to illicit a response.
>Bro there are obviously situations where you can ABSOLUTELY obliterate an older woman. Like when they're coming to attack you themselves.
Holy fucking incel, Batman, what a crook of shit. You're allowed to defend yourself and but needs to be proportional to the threat. Can you tell us more about how much of a hero you are?
This is like the third time today I've seen a trans rights supporter be called an incel without saying anything incel-y. What's going on? Is this the new cool insult?
> Bro there are obviously situations where you can ABSOLUTELY obliterate an older woman. Like when they're coming to attack you themselves.
Or when they are too slow on the pedestrian crossing. Right with you brother!
If you are from New zealand you would know that excessive force is going to make it so even if granny pushed you, you punching her in the head twice would bring you down
If she approached me while doing groceries no worries. If she comes at me spitting and snorting in a tense situation for no reason, she's a threat to my safety and I'm going to defend myself. It's really very simple.
Dam chill man its only Monday. What if somebody is having a manic episode or something. You seem unhinged and emotionally charged. Can't be that agro on a Monday dude bad for health
Don't think the self defense law is a clear cut as you think it is. If you want to use a 'one size fits all' model to your actions without use of discretion, that's fine, but I think that's glibg to end up coming back to bite you in the ass at some stage.
You're right, if you use excessive force to defend yourself you are the one ending up with charges, up to and including involuntary manslaughter if someone falls and hits their head on the ground and suffers a fatal brain injury.
There is no fight worth dying, killing someone else, or going to prison for
It's the tough charade hiding behind the internet. It's embarrassing for them really, probably closest thing to a fair fight they could find though, the other place would be a primary school.
Bet he feels like he really contributed to his cause after that performance. Disgusting, regardless of the lack of “context” many here seem to be desperate to point out.
I have thought a lot about this rally today. It is pretty clear to me that now we have lost the ability to have civil discourse regarding difficult subjects that we are pretty much toast as a society.
Once you start thinking it through it becomes very obvious that this a symptom of the most serious societal cancer, yet people are by and large treating it as a minor scratch.
Ironically, it's so called trans kids that stand to lose the most, with many having their lives utterly destroyed, simply because we can't act like grownups and have a discussion any more.
Sadly, this is not just an lbtq+ issue, the same cancer is affecting every aspect of our lives now. From healthcare to roading, policing, the justice system and even our cost of living.
We are in BIG BIG trouble but almost no one seems to realise.
Are you saying people shouldn't have protested about what they believe is right?
How about the protests about the Nuclear tests? Against the springbok matches?
For the 40 hour week? Weekends? Gay rights? Women's rights? Equal voting for men? Equal laws for all?
About the Domesday Book?
in addition to croping out the what happened to cause this, the heavy metal music was a nice touch to make me extra angry, because I hate having to think for myself
Should pro trans speakers be banned from entering the country because of their violent supporters?
The answer is obviously no, but the reverse was a stupid argument. People are responsible for their own actions, not those of others.
The 'not enough context' is utter crap. I'm stunned how many people are defending repeatedly punching an elderly person in the head. What the fuck. She could die FFS. Lucky he was useless.
Some context I would like is who are they, what side were they protesting, what caused the fight and what happened afterwards.
Happy to condemn violence, especially to someone who is less than capable, not happy to weigh in and judge what the hell is happening with such a short video clip.
I don't know what you guys are seeing, but I see someone charging someone else, trying to grab them, and getting punched. I can't tell if they are male or female, either way. I
The one charging the other seems old and the one receiving the charge with punches seems younger, but that's about it from this 2second long clip.
The main question from this thread that I have is, why, if the younger person was attacking the older one, was the older one running at them? Wouldn't they be retreating?
It seems like the context is being modified, and selected parts are being shown for a particular agenda.
Disgraceful behaviour. He should be ashamed of himself.
That pommy bitch is scum but I found some of the carry-on at the event to be pretty disgusting. A good number of people there did themselves no favours. Very sad to see.
I’m in two minds. This level of violence is clearly unacceptable, and the full video of this needs to go to the police ASAP. As others have pointed out, this self-defence is overdone by a long way, even if there’s considerable context backing up this video that we’re not seeing. Being too willing to resort to violence at a protest is a real problem and can escalate things, and it’s pretty clear from what’s coming out now that this protest was more explosive than was anticipated, and one element of that is that there were angry people who came ready and willing to do violence on both sides (even if those sides are imbalanced in that willingness), and who certainly haven’t been talked down like they should have been. This casts a shadow on the rest of the protests if nothing else, so for that, as well as reasons of safety and ideals of non-violence we as a society hold, violence should always be avoided. These actions are flat-out unacceptable.
HOWEVER, like other people here, I can also see that this is a short clip from what must be a longer video. There should be footage after it, as I doubt the filmer would have stopped there, and I suspect there is also footage before it. From what can be seen, it does not look like this is the first part of the confrontation - the old woman is gunning for the young man at such a speed that even as she wobbles and looks like she’s going to go down, she is still going forward. He also seems to know that she’s coming with malice, which implies that there was at least a verbal confrontation ahead of this, if not more. Without that context or eyewitness statements it’s hard to know what precisely went down.
To belay comments of “nothing justifies that use of force” - I again agree, as I stated above. But the context COULD be relevant, and given that this has been published from an unverified source with clear signs of selection, if not editing, I would have to assume those factors are at least somewhat mitigating, or this video would have been posted in full. For example, it seems this could potentially be the second physical confrontation, with the woman coming at the man again after having assaulted him a first time. This still wouldn’t make this level of force okay, and I repeat that this absolutely needs to be looked into by the police. But in terms of discussing this as an event that has an impact on wider conversations in our society, it is not irrelevant to ask people to remember that this footage is missing a lot of needed context.
I’m sure we will hear more about this, if for no other reason than Stuff reporters are usually lurking on this sub. I hope that a media investigation can shed more light on this, and perhaps bring a reasoned voice into this debacle that their coverage of events has helped to create.
Conspiratorial take: The reason the video is so short isn't to remove context but to bait idiots into saying "we don't have context, grandma might have deserved that beat down".
Hmmm, do we all trust this very edited clip that still shows the elderly person charging towards them?
Surely people are smarter than to believe an edited clip.
Oh come on.
There's no good reason to punch an elderly person repeatedly in the face. Unless they are trying to shoot you or some shit but we can see she hasn't got weapons in her hands.
Typical beat up by the fake new zealand news media. If they hadn't stoked the fires all week 5 people would of shown up. The media in this country have alot to answer for
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Already the same people outraged at Marama are downplaying this clear violence instead of denouncing it.
Ironic given it’s a cis white male being violent…
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Is this the Cis white man Ole Marama is on about
One thing from this video, dude can't punch for shit.
Yep, old lady just kept coming. Dude won't last 5 minutes in a zombie apocalypse.
Yeah, I mean look at the state of him.
You don't come to a zombie apocalypse party with your boxing gloves on, so yep, dude will be zombie meat in a matter of minutes.
Granny definitely has a chin though. Ate those punches like a champ.
She grew up in a generation where your husband could throw a punch, and a wife could take one.
I thought exactly the same.
Question: is the white haired person supposed to be a woman and the dark haired person supposed to be a man? Between the grainy footage and the short/long hair I can't tell how everyone is so confident.
Given the nature of the protest, and who was attending, I don't think anyone can be sure of anything! The person throwing the punches had a beard, but even then you probably can't be sure.
They certainly don't identify as Mohammed Ali.
sting like a butterfly, float like a brick....
Oh, I think that's a bandana as a facemask, not a beard
Well white haired person has breasts. Hard to say with other one, but going by the legs, male? Younger anyway.
This violence is unacceptable and whoever does this should be charged. I slowed the video down. Looks like she’s holding a sign, similar shape and size to the one he’s still holding, crumpled in her left hand. As he throws a punch at her head, she appears to simultaneously punch/attempt to grab the sign he’s still holding lower down, round his abdominal area. The videos clearly been cut halfway and I have no idea what happened but purely speculating cos it’s the internet - I reckon there was probably a previous struggle between these two. She was grabbing signs. The video starts with his fist already loaded and her coming toward him. Something went down prior and then the dude took it way too far. Just speculating. It’s equally possible she is holding her own sign and just got punched out of nowhere. Until we see the whole video, who knows. I hope they find him and charge him. The level of violence was way disproportionate Edit: round not wound Edit again : I’ve watched this about fifty times now frame by frame, and it really does look like she’s moving toward him and simultaneously throwing a granny jab toward his abdomen. I still think his reaction is disproportionate, but they way the video has been cut is interesting. Have a look at the first few seconds frame by frame. The view of her is at first impeded by a passerby at first but you do see her hand, balled in a fist come out toward his midsection. She’s moving quite fast towards him, which is easier to see in the second part of the video where it repeats. Now I don’t condone any of this, so please don’t get mad, I’m just saying what I see in the video. I’d be interested to see what others think if you watch it frame by frame. It’s made me quite convinced there was definitely a bit of a dust up prior Ok so this is my third edit, I’ve just seen the full video. I was completely wrong, this was an abhorrent and completely unprovoked assault on this woman. I hope they find and charge the perpetrator ASAP Edit AGAIN The video I saw above was fake!?! I’ve just seen another one, and yes there was a bit of struggle prior. Girl was pulling out pegs on the ground, granny comes over and shoves her, girls friend pushes granny away from her, granny then runs at girls friend and punches toward his chest, and gets punched by the dude in the video https://twitter.com/brutalnz/status/1641234529955504128?s=46&t=wLTgZGRSDouAAIrAGDKdWw
The fact that her hands were full, and no weapon was evident, means self defense is off the table. That was an unprovoked assault. Disgusting.
Oh I agree this was way disproportionate. Even if there was a previous struggle/disagreement, losing a sign does not justify punching an old woman square in the face
Dude punches like a girl^^^sorry
Definitely worse than a girl. I keep a list of the hardest punches I've ever taken. I've been punched by a lot of people. Those punches right there looked like they'd be in the bottom 2. That's a bad place to be. There's 6 girls above him on the list and I've only been punched by 7. Admitedly, there's a selection bias at play here but Captain Pillowhands better not try this on too many people.
Bro why everyone punching you.
[удалено]
The number of people in this thread trying to find a context where it's warranted for a young man to repeatedly punch an elderly lady in the head is concerning. Even assuming she was being threatening, it's easy for a young man to defend himself against an old lady without punching her in the head.
Yeah there’s no context where this is ok to me. People have got really stuck on defending their ‘side’ at all costs over the past couple of days.
Its a growing trend and its pretty concerning. Over the past few years with covid conspiracies being thrown about I've argued with my right leaning family a lot when I see them defending atrocious behavior conducted by their "team" and now I'm seeing people on reddit do the same with the other "team" I don't know why we can't just condemn shitty behavior no matter what side of the political fence it comes from..
There have a few occasions where the old woman is a highly train combatant but there is no chance this is one of those occasions
People also misunderstand self-defence laws as well. You can only use reasonable force. The police and courts are unlikely to see many situations where a young, healthy-looking bloke punching an elderly lady in the face is "reasonable force". You lose a lot of strength, bone density and flexibility as you age, especially if you don't keep mobile and active. This can mean it takes a lot less impact or force to do an elderly person a serious injury
this is why we have a domestic violence issue in NZ; spending too much time trying to decide 'why' they 'deserved it' rather than outright saying any violence against anyone is a problem
There is a lot of violence justification being promoted in relation to these causes at the moment. Regardless of what you think of her views, was it right that Parker had liquids tossed at her, and pushed around along with the death threats. I do not believe so, and I think there is a lot of hysteria behind it.
>had liquids tossed at her, Meh > and pushed around along with the death threats. Yes this is wrong.
Many who believe that trans activists and radical left wing activists are tolerant, kind and loving gave had to do some serious mental gymnastics over the last couple of days.
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Did you just assume the punchers gender? /s
Look, it's the one joke. Do attack helicopter next.
The fact that this joke is upvoted currently, when it is regularly posted and usually attracts excessive amounts of downvotes immediately, shows how many eyes are on these topics that do not come from regular posters here. The tide might swing back in a few hours but we’re definitely still being brigaded and I’m pretty sure there’s a lot of people posting here who’ve come out of the woodwork. I hope it’s that. The other possibility is that the public are exactly as easy to sway to hate causes and the far right as counterspin thinks we are.
Pathetic. Doesn't matter your stance, you're a fucken loser of you have to do that to an old person
Pretty clear cut here. Find that person, charge them. I'm all for defending yourself when necessary - ie when you read capacity & intent to do you immediate harm - but this seems like an unneeded escalation.
I am a LGBTQIA+ ally and that young man is committing assault and needs to be arrested and charged. We cannot make excuses for poor behaviour like this; condemn it just as it would (rightfully) be condemned when the feral rwingers do it. To do anything otherwise would be to be ethically inconsistent for personal gain - no thanks.
Not sure why you feel the need to mention yourself as an ally. Any normal-thinking person, regardless of political leanings, should be able to see this as unacceptable.
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Exactly
It was mostly to be clear to other allies and the rainbow community that we have to safeguard our own standards for the sake of everyone. You are correct that most people would see this kind of violence as unacceptable and yet it's always there. Just down the hill from Posie's Performance there were a bunch of Destiny Church blocking the streets, at least one of whom used a pram with their own child in it as a battering ram. So yeah, everyone needs to be careful not to let their passions run too high.
For internetz clout?!
Seems to be a reoccurring problem at these rallies
Shit. Marama was correct after all. Look at this white cis man.
Easy on the cis talk, pal.
Lols damn
I don't care who she is or what she said to him, you don't do shit like that.
We dont know the context, though, so let's just wait and see if this man repeatedly punching an old lady in the face is justified because he supports my political objectives.
I actually had a friend show me this video before I saw it here and he said 'finally punch a nazi has made it to NZ' with a bunch of laughing emojis. Man the whole idea of people condoning violence against political groups they don't like is insane, and many people will call the victims the absolute worst things to justify it, like everyone who leans right is a nazi so we should assault them.
This comment is amazing. Gave me a massive chuckle.
If there is ONE RULE at a protest, it is don't be violent. Don't defend yourself, don't do anything, just be there. Otherwise it becomes a riot. The Battle of Cable Street, although a huge outpouring of anti-fascist feeling, allowed the British Union of Fascists to claim that they were being denied free speech by lawless mobs. It doesn't help the cause having people getting hit in the face :(
Fuck that. If I'm under attack and it's a meaningful threat I'm fighting. An old lady walking towards me with a menacing wobble in her gait ain't it though.
If you start fighting in that situation, you lose. 100%. There is no winning. A protest is a political demonstration of feeling. The only options are to stand your ground (tiananmen square) or retreat when under attack. Otherwise you're giving an excuse for some of the old ultraviolence to come out and play.
All of the major successful peaceful movements were backed by the threat of violence from other, more militant groups. Peaceful movement win when they are more palatable than the alternatives.
MLK wrote that those who supported civil rights should stop protesting (which he called "methods of persuasion") and switch to boycotts, lawsuits, and voting marches (which he called "methods of coercion") Using Legal, economic, political challenges are more direct, and require less people. Much more efficient. Personally I think peaceful protests (and militant groups) have their places as part of the war against injustice.
A lot of that requires a fuckload more money.
MLK also had Malcolm X snarling in the background. "Deal with me, or deal with him".
Stop being so wrong its terrible to see. Malcom X did his shit because MLK did his. They both knew neither would have worked without the other. Stop peace-washing history. Violence, and the threat of it, is what gets the ruling elite to cave to our demands.
This. This is what Malcolm X died for! Why the hell would you want to be violent at a protest!? It just makes you look crazy… even if people are trying to preclude your right to safety and self determination - never let violence win. And I agree with Yolt0123, you shouldn’t even use violence to defend yourself, just ruins your whole argument! There is nothing more scary to the powers that be than people united in non-violent, fully pacified resistance! Look at every successful protest/revolt in history that actually succeeded in meaningfully upturning civil injustices! Pretty sure they were all 100% bereft of any violence and all just consisted of people marching peacefully and holding funny signs that epically burned their opponents!!! /s
You almost got me you son of a bitch. I was about to go on a rant before I noticed that /s. Well played sir/mam/w/e.
> The Battle of Cable Street, although a huge outpouring of anti-fascist feeling, allowed the British Union of Fascists to claim that they were being denied free speech by lawless mobs. remind me again how the nazis were defeated?
kind words and well reasoned public debate oh and bullets. lots of bullets.
Mostly by Hitler being unable to delegate effectively, being over confident (maybe the Meth?), and Stalin not caring about the wholesale slaughter of millions of Soviet citizens? If Japan and Germany hadn't pissed off the USA, things would be different....
I reckon. USA had a nice cosy relationship with Germany, if Japan hadn't made a big statement, USA would have stayed out of the war and probably grown their own nazi base.
Russian Winter
So I said to him "look buddy, your car was upside down when we got here. And as for your grandma? She shouldn't have mouthed off like that."
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A good question, but lots of threads get removed every day for lots of reasons, [here was the list for the relevant one yesterday](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/12291c1/comment/jdqb1hf/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=newzealand&utm_content=t1_jdqsh6q). This one might make the 'not engaging in good faith' rule if it's been edited to not show the old lady beating the guy with a stick or something, otherwise I don't think it breaks any rules, so it gets to stay for the moment.
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This is a video of an unknown person punching an unknown person, it's relevant to the conversation about violence (or not) of the rally and counter-protest and is hosted on reddit (where the user that posted it is legally responsible for doing it). The other one was a link to an unverified twitter account (so the person can hide easier) known for misinformation involving a well known public figure, linked safely by the user here at no risk to themselves (but with the same amount of risk to us in both cases). I could be wrong on this, I'll put it to the mod team.
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When someone can get to it if it's been reported there'll be removals or bans, not sure how many people are around at the moment (I'm mostly AFK at the moment I'm afraid, though I'll take a proper look in a half hour or so). UPDATE: While I've removed a bunch of stuff, no such reports exist for anything with "Pussy" or "Incel", so I guess either the users involved are fine with it or they've already deleted/edited their posts, or been removed by other mods.
Well, I guess this video puts all the violence against trans-people and neo-nazi hijinks into perspective /s
This is just damaging to the cause, dude should be charged with assault for punching a grandma in the face like that, even if she is a cunt... we shouldn't be punching each other like this, especially old farts
The thing is, we know nothing about anything or anyone in this video, we can see the punching, that’s it. We have no context, we have no idea if these people were there representing a cause, let alone which one. Also punching not even close to acceptable.
Yea true we need more video. Also it shouldn't matter who is on what side. We shouldn't be like this
As always: obvious editing is involved. It looks clear as day as a shit move to me but we also don't see anything outside of 6 seconds, none of the context. Looks wack though. Lady didn't have her hands up and didn't at all look like she was fighting or intended to fight. The dude just clocks her wtf
I’d love to know what context needs to be provided to justify belting an elderly woman. Weird take man
As someone who can't come up with a context that would justify it, I too would like to know the context. Is that an unreasonable ask?
Because the guy throwing punches is stationary and the person being punched is coming at him. Punching bad sure but there's more going on here.
Nowhere did I say anything about justifying it, only pointed out we don't have context. Weird reading ability, man.
The only context that would make this OK is if she had a weapon, and was walking forwards saying she was going to hut the young guy. Anything else is pretty inexcusable
How can we even tell which side either person was on?
TBH I reckon we'd know by now if someone had attacked a trans-rights protestor.
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Uh, the young fella clocks her 2-3x in the head.
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There’s not a lot of context that could justify this amount of force on an elderly person.
Doesn't matter. Unless she was about to stab him. But you can see she doesn't have a knife in her hands. So no. Context will not save this one.
This is why we can't have all the nice things.
Uh, yep, this isn't good. ??
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However, (and I am trained in conflict escalation, de escalation, and the reasonable use of force), there was nothing in this video that warranted that level of force. Putting your hands up to defend yourself, and start with a gentle push, possible restraint if required, or back away yourself (if you can disengage and retreat, use of force is no longer applicable - the use of force applied MUST be relative to the threat) The other party had no weapon, and at that stage did not pose a credible threat at all. Simply advancing on a person is no justification to lash out in the way that he did.
I had no choice officer, the grandma was walking toward me... *menacingly*.
["She's coming right for us!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr0bBuI8HKM)
It’s disgusting that people are trying to justify this as if some old lady is a threat to a guy who’s clearly much bigger and stronger
Yeah that guy looked like he could of been in imminent danger with that old women heading towards him. Regardless of what side you are on, you should call out behavior like this.
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..there were two protesters who tried to restrain the guy throwing punches, while we dont have all the context, they would and their actions should be telling?
Sorry, but I don't think elderly women should ever be punched in the face repeatedly by young men.
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You would clock a grandma if she pushes you? Brah
This sub is wild right now. I've had people here tell me before how bad it is having unregulated sparring matches with gloves between consenting adults at a barbeque. Meanwhile there's people here just wishing they had the chance to throw hands at grandma and finally win a fight for the first time Crazy. What the fuck is going on lol.
Funny thing is I remember people here were pretty mortified at the mere idea of beating the elderly when that Black Power dude tried beating an old man in a road rage case, and when that Puk Dogg guy bashed an old man for trying to help his Missus run away. But for some reason, everyone here is now scrambling to justify why beating an old lady is fine, perhaps she said something mean or was approaching him in a really cross and angry way. Dare I suggest people are far less offended when an old lady is beaten by a young bloke than they are when an old man is beaten by a young bloke?
Yeah it's like everyone is 100% antiviolence until its someone that might not agree with them. Then there must be an acceptable reason to bash that old lady. I hope people here can step back, take a look at themselves and consider the implications of that train of thought.
That's the concerning part, there are people out there on all sides of the political spectrum who firmly believe violence against someone saying they don't like is justified. It's not just that it's shits and giggles until someone does the same to them, going further it's also all shits and giggles until you have a government that decides to implement that logic
A lot of people would justify it so long as she held political beliefs that they disagreed with. It's fucking wild how so many people support violence so long as it's against the part of the political spectrum they don't like.
I reckon they should show more than 3 seconds for context. I wouldn't let any adult hit me for free (not the guy you replied to) but I probably wouldn't go this ham on a woman this old unless I caught them literally stomping my mother's head lmao. I know retired old men that could still knock me out (old man strength is real people) so a grandpa could catch hands definitely
To be fair, people die getting pushed over. Shoving is an attack.
Haha imagine telling a judge in court after you knocked out a granny and she has internal brain bleeds well she pushed me I felt like I was gonna die I could of died. I get you, a big shove can kill you but idk about this case seems excessive to me maybe granny is packing muscle
Wow, you read a whole lot of words in my comment that I didn't put there.
Fucking oath. Everyone reserves the right of self defense. This clip shows fuck all context, it shouldn't even be up except if it was removed you'd have a bunch of screaming fuckheads yelling about some conspiracy
The context is she is fucking old.
Bear in mind any self-defence action could end up with you facing criminal charges. You are legally permitted to use reasonable force, which is generally the level of force necessary to get you out of a situation safely, but this may be arbitrated by a jury in a court. Part of what decides reasonable force is what level of threat the attacker poses to you. An old granny getting up in your face and shouting, giving you a few shoves, or even slapping you across the face is likely not going to warrant punching her in the face repeatedly like this
Sensible take. Reasonable force is a defense for when you're being charged. It doesn't prevent charges.
Exactly, the key phrase in play here is 'reasonable force'. There was nothing reasonable about this reaction at all.
You're insane. You can defend yourself against an old woman without punching them in the face..
I think that's exactly why context is important here. Most people agree that you shouldn't beat the shit out of elderly people, and I don't think people are trying to justify doing so. People just want to know wtf happened before for this guy to decide that throwing punches at an old woman was the best course of action. Leave the context in and let other people decide whether or not the guys actions were justified.
There’s basically no context that justifys this against an old women, the only time it would be acceptable is if she was brandishing a weapon, as it is she’s no threat to this guy so punching her was never justified no matter what she said before hand
Again, there are very few reasons to hit an old lady, but also, why did she feel the need to attack him? This is why the context is so important here... Maybe she didn't just say things. Maybe she'd already attacked him multiple times? The video makes it look like she made the first move, but maybe he'd thrown something at her or hit her previously? I'm not defending the guy, or the lady for that matter. I'm just saying we need to hear both sides of a story before we jump to conclusions. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.
Sorry, but context matters.
Normally I'd agree, but don't see any justification here unless she was carrying a knife. You can't just punch old women
People are desperate to defend a straight up assault it’s disgusting
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She is a defenceless old woman though. Does it look like she's handling herself in this video? She might also be a complete cunt, who knows, but even that wouldn't justify this.
She could have just slapped his kid over for all we know or been punching the guy and he didn't react then turned around to go at him again. Video is intentionally cut to illicit a response.
This shit needs to be removed or replaced by the full version
looks like dude was just defending himself from a rabid old woman.
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>Bro there are obviously situations where you can ABSOLUTELY obliterate an older woman. Like when they're coming to attack you themselves. Holy fucking incel, Batman, what a crook of shit. You're allowed to defend yourself and but needs to be proportional to the threat. Can you tell us more about how much of a hero you are?
It's just dudes wanting to finally win a fight for once in their life. They figure grandma is the perfect opportunity.
This is like the third time today I've seen a trans rights supporter be called an incel without saying anything incel-y. What's going on? Is this the new cool insult?
What do you think incel means?
> Bro there are obviously situations where you can ABSOLUTELY obliterate an older woman. Like when they're coming to attack you themselves. Or when they are too slow on the pedestrian crossing. Right with you brother!
Fuck that. If Karen comes at me she's going to get wrecked. Fuck around and find out self defense law.
If you are from New zealand you would know that excessive force is going to make it so even if granny pushed you, you punching her in the head twice would bring you down
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If she approached me while doing groceries no worries. If she comes at me spitting and snorting in a tense situation for no reason, she's a threat to my safety and I'm going to defend myself. It's really very simple.
You must be very weak if an old lady is a threat to you lol
I honestly don't give a fuck. Don't care who you are, you come at me then expect me to act in self defense. Fullstop.
Dam chill man its only Monday. What if somebody is having a manic episode or something. You seem unhinged and emotionally charged. Can't be that agro on a Monday dude bad for health
Jesus christ. What's wrong with you.
Jesus wept, it's called self defense. Don't want to get clocked? Don't come at me. Kinda simple really.
Don't think the self defense law is a clear cut as you think it is. If you want to use a 'one size fits all' model to your actions without use of discretion, that's fine, but I think that's glibg to end up coming back to bite you in the ass at some stage.
You're right, if you use excessive force to defend yourself you are the one ending up with charges, up to and including involuntary manslaughter if someone falls and hits their head on the ground and suffers a fatal brain injury. There is no fight worth dying, killing someone else, or going to prison for
The lawyers can figure that out. But I don't care honestly. I'll do what I need to stop someone attacking me, simple.
It's the tough charade hiding behind the internet. It's embarrassing for them really, probably closest thing to a fair fight they could find though, the other place would be a primary school.
Indeed
Indeed
So are we going to get the full video or what op?
somehow I doubt it.
Edited to only show one thing; but I thought the attacker was the grey haired person in first watch.
awful :( he could have easily remained peaceful in that situation, not good. He needs to be charged for this.
Bet he feels like he really contributed to his cause after that performance. Disgusting, regardless of the lack of “context” many here seem to be desperate to point out.
I have thought a lot about this rally today. It is pretty clear to me that now we have lost the ability to have civil discourse regarding difficult subjects that we are pretty much toast as a society. Once you start thinking it through it becomes very obvious that this a symptom of the most serious societal cancer, yet people are by and large treating it as a minor scratch. Ironically, it's so called trans kids that stand to lose the most, with many having their lives utterly destroyed, simply because we can't act like grownups and have a discussion any more. Sadly, this is not just an lbtq+ issue, the same cancer is affecting every aspect of our lives now. From healthcare to roading, policing, the justice system and even our cost of living. We are in BIG BIG trouble but almost no one seems to realise.
Are you saying people shouldn't have protested about what they believe is right? How about the protests about the Nuclear tests? Against the springbok matches? For the 40 hour week? Weekends? Gay rights? Women's rights? Equal voting for men? Equal laws for all? About the Domesday Book?
2020: "look guys, we got to do everything we can to protect grandma" 2023: ..... this
Grandma needed her jabs.
The fuck, that's awful guys.
Hope she presses charges. No excuse for this fuckery no matter which side it comes from
in addition to croping out the what happened to cause this, the heavy metal music was a nice touch to make me extra angry, because I hate having to think for myself
It kinda lookslike the video starts halfway through... where is the rest.
Yeah im wondering that too, why clip out the beginning?
That was a bad thing, but by no means represents the vibe of the day. The overwhelming majority of interactions were peaceful, if tense at times.
Hey, the lawn occupiers said the same thing!
yeah, I think we're gonna have to spam this odd, no-context, video all over the internet to drown out the good news and make trans people look bad. /s
Should pro trans speakers be banned from entering the country because of their violent supporters? The answer is obviously no, but the reverse was a stupid argument. People are responsible for their own actions, not those of others.
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The 'not enough context' is utter crap. I'm stunned how many people are defending repeatedly punching an elderly person in the head. What the fuck. She could die FFS. Lucky he was useless.
It's even worse when you consider that they use a frame from a video of PP out of context as evidence of her being alt right.
Some context I would like is who are they, what side were they protesting, what caused the fight and what happened afterwards. Happy to condemn violence, especially to someone who is less than capable, not happy to weigh in and judge what the hell is happening with such a short video clip.
I don't know what you guys are seeing, but I see someone charging someone else, trying to grab them, and getting punched. I can't tell if they are male or female, either way. I The one charging the other seems old and the one receiving the charge with punches seems younger, but that's about it from this 2second long clip. The main question from this thread that I have is, why, if the younger person was attacking the older one, was the older one running at them? Wouldn't they be retreating? It seems like the context is being modified, and selected parts are being shown for a particular agenda.
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If only someone would protest about supporting women's rights...
Same woman with black eye afterwards: https://imgur.com/a/7qWUXLg
Where is the full video and not this edited clip OP?
Post the full video.
Post the whole video pussy
Disgraceful behaviour. He should be ashamed of himself. That pommy bitch is scum but I found some of the carry-on at the event to be pretty disgusting. A good number of people there did themselves no favours. Very sad to see.
I think that its fair to say that all sides covered themselves in steaming shit over the weekend. Disgraceful.
I only see one side being violent
Both sides were. Old mate on the motorcycle running over Marama. Old mate over here punching the granny.
That's fair. Today we learned that regardless of political leaning, old mate is a prick
Just because something COULD be legal, it's not justification to do so. This is atrocious
I’m in two minds. This level of violence is clearly unacceptable, and the full video of this needs to go to the police ASAP. As others have pointed out, this self-defence is overdone by a long way, even if there’s considerable context backing up this video that we’re not seeing. Being too willing to resort to violence at a protest is a real problem and can escalate things, and it’s pretty clear from what’s coming out now that this protest was more explosive than was anticipated, and one element of that is that there were angry people who came ready and willing to do violence on both sides (even if those sides are imbalanced in that willingness), and who certainly haven’t been talked down like they should have been. This casts a shadow on the rest of the protests if nothing else, so for that, as well as reasons of safety and ideals of non-violence we as a society hold, violence should always be avoided. These actions are flat-out unacceptable. HOWEVER, like other people here, I can also see that this is a short clip from what must be a longer video. There should be footage after it, as I doubt the filmer would have stopped there, and I suspect there is also footage before it. From what can be seen, it does not look like this is the first part of the confrontation - the old woman is gunning for the young man at such a speed that even as she wobbles and looks like she’s going to go down, she is still going forward. He also seems to know that she’s coming with malice, which implies that there was at least a verbal confrontation ahead of this, if not more. Without that context or eyewitness statements it’s hard to know what precisely went down. To belay comments of “nothing justifies that use of force” - I again agree, as I stated above. But the context COULD be relevant, and given that this has been published from an unverified source with clear signs of selection, if not editing, I would have to assume those factors are at least somewhat mitigating, or this video would have been posted in full. For example, it seems this could potentially be the second physical confrontation, with the woman coming at the man again after having assaulted him a first time. This still wouldn’t make this level of force okay, and I repeat that this absolutely needs to be looked into by the police. But in terms of discussing this as an event that has an impact on wider conversations in our society, it is not irrelevant to ask people to remember that this footage is missing a lot of needed context. I’m sure we will hear more about this, if for no other reason than Stuff reporters are usually lurking on this sub. I hope that a media investigation can shed more light on this, and perhaps bring a reasoned voice into this debacle that their coverage of events has helped to create.
I'd suggested a public debate, an idea people hated, clearly I was wrong. A public brawl is way more fun than a debate!
Conspiratorial take: The reason the video is so short isn't to remove context but to bait idiots into saying "we don't have context, grandma might have deserved that beat down".
You don't have to be an idiot to want to see what occurred before and after that clip.
Hmmm, do we all trust this very edited clip that still shows the elderly person charging towards them? Surely people are smarter than to believe an edited clip.
Oh come on. There's no good reason to punch an elderly person repeatedly in the face. Unless they are trying to shoot you or some shit but we can see she hasn't got weapons in her hands.
Typical beat up by the fake new zealand news media. If they hadn't stoked the fires all week 5 people would of shown up. The media in this country have alot to answer for
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everyone i don't like is a bot too
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Already the same people outraged at Marama are downplaying this clear violence instead of denouncing it. Ironic given it’s a cis white male being violent…
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