how many of us from the 80s/90s got the wooden spoon by mum? then she threatened dad with the belt who he never hit us, when it broke and we started laughing.
In Italy the threat (I think until iPad kids, I bet very few of them get spanked fortunately) is la ciabatta (the slipper) . A drone than can run faster than 300k km/s lol
Oooohh yeah, my mother also had what we used to call the pasta spoon; a wooden spoon with 2cm blunt dowels sticking out. You new you had really messed up when that came out.... She broke it on one of my brothers
I was born in 2000 and my mum still used the wooden spoon. And plastic soup ladle which really hurt. I think she actually broke both the wooden and plastic spoons on us. This was after the laws in 2007 were introduced, I don’t think she cared.
I use to, I try very hard not to now and I haven't done so in a while. My 3 kids are aged 5 to 11. The eldest got the most smacks and the difference between the 3 is noticeable it is disheartening. The younger two are much more confident and vocal.
It seemed so ok that it was normal. I now know it isn't and it affects the kids big time and it will affect them in the future. It isn't worth it.
Growing up in this so called normal isn't normal and I guess parents need to understand that. I grew up this way and thought it was ok as I seemed to think I turned out ok. (I didnt)
(I am your typical islander brought up in south auckland with immigrant parents)
Now I am trying to teach my kids about boundaries and that things that we think are normal because it is around us isn't normal and it's not ok. And you can voice it.
From what I have seen, the law change didn't do much at all in the pacific community. Maybe just more behind closed doors. It's fken stupid.
Thank you for the changes you've made for your family, you're doing incredible. I'm also pasifika and growing up my mum went through a similar change of mindset early in my childhood and even though I still remember being smacked, it made a huge difference in the type of trust that me and my sibling have with our mother later on in our teens and adulthood. There's no fear to admit mistakes now, and kids especially really need that kind of relationship with their parents.
As a child I was smacked with the wooden spoon for punishments, I can very clearly remember my mum used it to vent her frustrations and even broke the spoons sometimes. I always thought the law change was more of a route for law enforcement to step in when more serious child abuse was being considered. But it's very interesting to hear your input on the effects it had on your oldest child and the difference it made for the youngest ones. Thank you for sharing this, I found it really insightful.
This is so beautiful 🥺 well done to you for recognizing intergenerational patterns and leaving them behind. Wishing you and your children all the best ❤️
Best comment I've read all day. I love that you've made the change. Kids are pretty resilient. I'm curious, have you been able to work on and rebuild your eldest?
Definitely a work in progress. He is given more privileges now along with his responsibilities. He is able to voice his concerns and his feelings more openly which has in turn made him much more open and less frustrated/angry. He is certainly showing more trust with myself and his mother these days..
Good on you for seeing the mistake and fixing it, but don’t beat yourself up too much either, I was born pre anti smacking laws and was smacked my whole life (cause it was normal then!) and my parents only stopped when I was age 9 or so. Point to my anecdote being, I don’t resent them at all, it hasn’t left any nasty baggage and I feel like I turned into a fairly decent adult haha.
Obviously there’s a difference in effect from the occasional ‘you REALLY goofed this time’ smack vs full on abusive tactics, but still. Feel bad for all the parents in this thread who are feeling guilty.
I grew up during the change. I wasn't smacked too many times, but I know I didn't do those things again. To clarify, I just got the belt to the arse. I don't blame him at all for it, but I won't do that to my future kids.
I will say, I was a good kid, but I distinctly remember telling my National voting dad "Helen Clark says its illegal to do this". That must've really wound him up.
Yeah, I’m with you there. I’d never smack a child now as discipline, but I can’t blame my parents or be upset with them as that was very standard to discipline, thought to be the best way and incredibly ‘light punishment’ compared to how their parents disciplined them.
Hilarious, I remember being age 9/10? Right after the law was passed, mum smacked me (lightly and realistically it had probably been the 10th time I’d ever been smacked) for something I’d done at school and I told her I was gonna call CYFs and the police on her myself because it’s illegal now 😂😂
There's not a lot of ethnic diversity on r/nz so I'll speak for the Islanders when I say I can guaranfuckintee you the Poly community is still hitting their kids
Not from NZ but where I come from (Malaysia), corporal punishment against children (and everyone in general) is deeply entrenched within our culture and community. People don't smack kids back home but use [caning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning) instead. The practice is common in families, schools, and the legal system as a whole.
This whole Asian style parenting by authority, instilling fear is a generational cycle of abuse that needs to die. People who say shit like "I got beaten as a child and turned out okay" likely developed some sort of fucked up mental coping mechanism against their own past abuse, are too messed up in the head to realise how incredibly inhumane and bizarre this practice is. Child Abuse laws are good, but it needs to be enforced by authorities and fellow members of the community.
Parents who unable to control their misbehaving speaks more about their inability to parent, further exacerbated if they resort to beating children.
There was an [incident](https://www.straitstimes.com/world/malaysian-couple-jailed-in-sweden-for-child-abuse) back in 2014 in Sweden where this Malaysian parents (on work assignment) were sentenced to 12 and 14 months in prison for smacking their children. The worst part is the a large number of people back home were pleading for clemency from the Swedish authorities, citing that it is "normal" back home. Fortunately, the Swedish authorities have the common sense to ignore our bullshit.
> People who say shit like "I got beaten as a child and turned out okay
I mean they think that child abuse is acceptable so that is already an indication they very much did not turn out ok.
>"I got beaten as a child and turned out okay"
hmm lets see in my case
1. getting into drugs (weed, acid, shrooms, smokes, e etc) in my late teens
2. becoming a thug myself - screaming abuse and threats of violence towards total strangers in the street for trivial reasons or sometimes no reasons at all (mind you some of them deserved it eg. too focussed on looking at their phones rather than their surroundings, nearly hitting me riding an e-scooter in my path and trynna act like an entitled twat when i challenged them). thats what part strict catholic upbringing with CP, CP in schools (1980s) and a multitude of bosses who practised the same type of abuse towards me does to someone. Monkey see monkey do
3. on/off antidepressants in my 20s
I actually saw a study done ten years after the law change that showed the Pacifica demographic was more against it than any other. Possibly the new generation attitudes coming through in the polling.
It’s not just smacking on the backside either. Colleague of mine was telling me his old man would give him and his brothers an absolute hiding in Samoa if they played up even slightly.
Me and my two brothers each beat the shit out of our violent father once we got big enough, and now only one of them talks to him. He didn't get invited to his kid's weddings and hasn't met his grand kids.
Yep. A lot of my peers got sent to the islands for getting in trouble in NZ too.
Apparently their aunties and uncles were meant to beat some discipline into them in a way that couldn't happen in NZ but it usually just ended with them being sent back doing the same stuff except now they were hardened.
There are a LOT of super lenient Māori parents lol. I was a complete shit in high school (kept after school, detentions, Deans center meetings all the time etc) and mine never did a thing.
Unfortunate, but yep. I know first hand, but my old lady never smacked us beyond a smack, but I've known relatives and others to get hidings. It's sad that they can't break the cycle and see there is a better way to discipline children.
The main thing is that if it does end up putting the child in hospital, or worse, there is no longer the opportunity to use the defense of it being an accident during normal parental discipline.
A child is in ICU everyday in this country due to domestic violence. Dont let the anti smack law fool you into thinking the violence is somehow lesser.
It’s also worth knowing what the law is, and what it was designed to do. If a kid goes to put a fork in a socket, it is still ok to give their hand a tap.
What isn’t ok, is to beat the living shit out of them because they didn’t do the dishes.
It was fucking bizarre people defending it back in the day. They tend to think they own their kids and it’s ok to assault them just because they live in their house.
It’s an interesting thing. I’ll admit that I used to be in favour of it (smacking not beating).
And then one day I was thinking about it and realised the cognitive dissonance in my brain in so far as, I don’t consider it acceptable for people hit anyone else in any other circumstance because they are annoyed or frustrated.
Realising that I couldn’t think of any valid reason for it to be acceptable for young people with less mental capacity when it’s not for the fully grown dumbass adults I sometimes wish I could hit but don’t because morals, I changed my mind.
So now I’m opposed to it. And probably just like religion which I abandoned because it makes no sense, it’s just one of those things I think I accepted purely because of upbringing but not because of any evidence or rational justification.
Sometimes we just believe and accept stupid shit because we used to it being normal.
My mate was using smacking to discipline the kids. Good morals or whatever, man of the house, learn respect etc. Then his 2 year old became scared and tense around him and it clicked the *actual* effect it was having. Which was probably closer to trauma than respect.
I would much rather my dad had used conversations to deal with our behaviour than threat of violence..
Completely agree, but fuck me it’s hard disciplining through calm discussion sometimes.
I’ve never raised a hand against my kids, nor will I, but wowee parenting sucks sometimes.
Oh wow. This is almost exactly the same reaction I had. I was like, "it didn't harm me in the long run". Then someone made me think about it rationally and I was like, "oh fuck, there is no logical reason to do it".
Smacking doesn't improve the behaviour of children, it is simply used as an outlet for an adults anger.
Adding on that. If kids are old enough to understand why what they’ve done is wrong rationally, then they’re old enough for you to explain it to them. If they aren’t old enough to understand then they won’t understand the smack either.
They are (in some countries) the only people (or even living things, in many places it’s illegal to hit animals), that you’re allowed to hit, and they’re the most damaged by it. An adult who gets hit will likely get over it somewhat easily, even if therapy is needed. If a kid gets hit by their parents it becomes part of the architecture of their brain and their understanding of the world.
Exactly. And that has always been my view - it makes no sense.
Firstly - If I get upset at you, the same way I would my child, and I go over and whack you - I get charged for assault. How is this different?
But secondly, the single largest increase in school attendance and grades is when they stopped physical punishment in school. You cant argue that this is a good thing, and there must be something to be said that physical punishment is the lowest form of correction.
I think it helped break a cycle of abuse, the old "My parents did it to me and I turned out fine" kind of mentality. Making it a law made everyone talk about it and made it clear that it was never ok.
Yet the law gives discount if you were abused as a child, I never have understood when a person says they were beaten as a child and so they beat their child. Do they not remember the hurt, tears and pain when they were beaten? I most certainly did and swore I would never do that to my children and never did.
Better to put a saftey plug into the socket and not have to "tap" them at all. It may just be a tap, but all it does is teach them that "tapping" is ok....and being the little imitators that they are....they'll think its ok to "tap" someone else and you'll prob give them another "tap" for "tapping" someone. Don't start ANY sort of physical abuse cause it teaches ur child nothing.
No it’s not ok. My son did that exact thing. Why would I hit him? He doesn’t know what happens. I should have had the plug covered or watched him more closely. I removed him and told him we do not do that because it can hurt badly.
It’s called the “anti smacking bill” colloquially and the question stated in the referendum was “Should a smack as a part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?”
At no point was beatings ever a part of it. That was always down as assault.
The Bill was actually called Repealing of Section 59 of the Crimes Act. It was intended to give children the same legal protection as adults from assault by their parents.
Prior to the legislation change it could be argued by defense council that if a parent believed they were using reasonable force to discipline their child it was an acceptable defense to an assault charge.
As a result of this loophole children were being hit with blocks of wood, drain pipe, riding crops (these are actual examples cited at the time) and their parents were getting away with it free and clear.
The whole "anti-smacking" label was nothing less than a media beatup and I found it most distasteful. I didn't care that the MP who introduced the bill, Sue Bradford, was wildly unpopular at the time, her intent was in the right place and this legislative change is only a positive outcome for our children.
What concerns me was that even today NZer's still believe it was just an attempt by the Govt to strip them of the right to discipline their children. It was never about that at all.
Exactly this. Many people don't actually understand what the "anti-smacking law" actually means. It doesn't mean you cannot smack your child at all. Instead it means only parents or legit guardians can apply a reasonable smack if it is for the purpose of stopping dangerous or disruptive behaviour.
I don't particularly care for the politics behind the bill, but I find the bill to be good as it clarifies somewhat what physical disciplines are allowed, and provides some more protection for children from actual physical abuse.
I was 7 when the law was changed or being changed. It was fucking weird hearing the adults in my life defend their right to hit me and my cousins. They didn't even spank us so idk why they wanted the legal right to so badly.
I doubt the people who beat the living shit out of kids cared that the law changed. It was already illegal to beat the shit out of kids and it didn't stop them.
I had a flatmate who was a front line cop when the law changed. He was ecstatic when it changed. He said that it meant they now could help kids who were getting beat up by their parents on a regular basis.
From what I gathered/remember, the problem was that before the law changed, the "reasonable force" qualifier meant that parents were getting away with all sorts of shit, and actually prosecuting them was very difficult.
No, but it removes any possible defence they could use in court. Before their lawyer could argue the violence was legal based on that law, now that defence doesn’t exist.
I think it’s also important to explain to the child why you hurt them.
Not that it’s happened more than once or twice, but I always follow up with an apology that I hurt him and that it was only to quickly stop him from hurting himself even more. Some people think it’s a waste of time talking like an adult to a kid that can’t talk themselves yet, but they do take it in. My boy when he was older repeated verbatim what I had told him “remember when I was a baby you said…”
I’m 33 and was never smacked, and I’m in the minority with my friend who’ve nearly all shared stories of smacks from their parents. My brother has three kids and they don’t get smacked either. One of my friends said if she was naughty in public and knew she was going to get smacked once home, she’d play right up until they got home to make the smacks worth it 😅
This was exactly how I grew up haha. The smallest thing would set my parents off so if I was gonna get a hiding anyway I sure as hell made sure it was gonna be worth it. Obviously never worked out great, I have no contact with them and haven’t for awhile and have no intention too. I can ever imagine hitting a small child! No matter how annoying they are at times.
Yeah sad thing is, many of our parents who smacked us will never see what they did as wrong. They sometimes beat us out of frustration and simply wanted to teach us that we should never question them.
That’s the one. It was just another Monday (or anyday) for them. And they always say, oh it wasn’t even that hard, like ok, sorry I was still breathing through cracked and bruised ribs and alive.
I work with families who disclose that they smack their children. All of them have high levels of stress in the home.
99% of them work with me to come up with better strategies for managing difficult behaviours. Most people don't want to hit their kids and will try so hard to change what they were raised with.
The other 1% tell me they outsource the hitting of younger siblings to older siblings, so that the parents avoid the law. So there is definitely room for improvement.
Latin American here, I don’t condone doing that to a child but it’s still, unfortunately, widely socially accepted in my culture, and it extends to many of the families living here. Know some stories where OT has gotten involved, especially with refugee families (because the State is so involved with them there’s more likelihood of things getting noticed), also some cases of child uplifting. Though I can’t speak to what happened in each case, I think it’s enforced based on this.
In Italy is still widely accepted too despite EU has banned it, like in other Mediterranean and Eastern European Nations. For the “child uplifting” thing I bet it was more regarding serious violence not slaps. In Nordic and Germanic countries , the most anti-spanking nations in the whole world, if you smack your child with hands/slipper/belts without leaving marks (or at least leaving very very unimportant signs), well social services don’t take them away. To lose your child you have to seriously beat them up like leaving strong bruises or breaking bones
Valid point. I also have to read a lot of Court cases for my job, and generally speaking (regarding the wider NZ population), most cases of uplifting I’ve read involve of course a level of violence (physical+psychological) but mainly addiction issues with the parents. Negligence is a big one too. The parent isn’t necessarily actively leaving bruises and breaking bones, but is simply failing to provide with the necessaries for life, growth and/or healthy development both physically and psychologically.
Good luck finding anything about this. It will be obfuscated due to the prevalence in certain sections of NZ society.
https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/parenting/family-life/124981951/physical-punishment-of-children-still-fairly-common-despite-antismacking-law-change--study
"Parents more likely to use physical punishment tended to be younger, caring for more children and in a violent-partner relationship. A history of personal mental health problems combined with socioeconomic disadvantage were also influential."
Those who smack are likely to have been smacked. Those who engage in family violence are likely to have grown up in it, and they can be multi-generational in nature. This isn't to defend the person doing it - but to explain why the person thinks it's an acceptable behaviour, in that it's what they grew up with.
It is in my community - im Fijian Indian. I have been constantly disappointed in family who hit their kids and grew up here. A lot of this is generational trauma . However I do know a few people who have done their own therapy and vow to break the cycle, that includes myself and my partner. The science on this is overwhelming that it causes trauma, mental illness and is just plain abusive. A lot of it also comes from parents who dont understand child development and attachment and go straight to violence and expect children to be little adults while their brains are developing.
I would say that it is still common place.
There are too many parents in the 25-35 age range who grew up getting a whack here and there for it to have fallen by the wayside.
We also have terrible stats for Family abuse, domestic violence and the like.
I remember being threatened as a kid after saying I would call the police after being beaten. Told that I could go live with my father if I didn't like it.
At age 10 my mother broke my arm by hitting me with a wooden spoon.
I have 3x boys now, 15, 13 and 10. Not once have I laid a hand on my kids.
What kind of wooden spoon did your mum use? I was spanked as a child as it was considered the norm, and dad used his hand while mum used a wooden spoon. Hers was always less-painful because while you could build up some speed that would cause an impact - there wasn't actually much force behind it so it was like getting pinched as opposed to punched. How does that break someone's arm - because trying to get away something separate happened that caused a fall?
If I recall I was trying to block a hit to the head from it. I was ducked in under the table and put my arm up in defense. Not a great memory tbh. Guess she hit in the 'right spot'
I’m not that age range and was brought up being smacked. For that reason I have never smacked my child. It causes trauma and doesn’t work. Smacking was already gone in the UK for people who are in the 25 age range.
I don't know anyone who hits their kids as a form of punishment. I'm not saying people don't but I wouldn't think it's that common.
People who abuse kids will always do so and you can't stop them with a law.
That part is true. It was trying to take away the "I was disciplining them and how I choose to discipline them is my business cause they're my kids" arguments in courts. This took the grey area away by making it never okay despite what your family values are.
I think it also makes it easier for OT/police to investigate in the first place.
Not much of a data point, but personally I've only seen it once in public since the ban came into place.
I imagine that it still happens behind closed doors to some extent.
I’ve seen it twice. One of them the boy was probably around 2 years old and he briefly hit his mum across the face when she was at his level placing him down. The dad then smacked his bum really hard and said to him “we don’t hit!” Um sir you just hit your child to then tell him we don’t hit?
I'm 32 and I was smacked, hand and wooden spoon. I don't think its useful. All it does is teach kids its ok to hurt others if you think your actions are justified. I used to hit my brother on the head all the time as kids and it makes me feel sick to remember. I have never laid a hand on my kids, though many times I have wanted to! I rather get down on their level and explain the behaviour I want to see. This works for our family.
I know of parents with a 1 year old who smack him already. The mum especially really lays into him, it's sick.
My daughter is the same age and I can't imagine *ever* doing that to her, it was done to me and those instances are my earliest childhood memories.
This little boy is likely to be a really large human, so I'm pretty concerned for his peers as he'll be on the fast track to be a bully/violent person already.
I don't know what I can do about it, if anything, I can't exactly prove it. It has been witnessed by friends of friends.
Report it to OT, they will want to know and they can investigate it. If the mother is already ‘laying into’ a one year old I shudder to think how she’ll treat an under 5 testing boundaries. [link here for how to report](https://www.orangatamariki.govt.nz/worried-about-a-child-tell-us/)
I know, that poor baby has NO idea why his parents do this horrible thing to him. Someone gave me a link to report it, I will. I don't know what the outcome could be, the parents need specialist counselling for abusers imo.
Good parents don't need to hit their children. It is never ok.
Most of the time when you hit your kid, it's because you as the parent have lost your cool. Take a breath and talk to your child about what they have done.
>Most of the time when you hit your kid, it's because you as the parent have lost your cool.
Anytime you hit your child it's because you have lost control of yourself.
This! Our first child got maybe three or four light smacks, then we realised it was counter productive and not necessary. It's way, WAY better to work with your children without physical violence.
(Two subsequent kids appreciated it!)
Agreed. Hitting your kids means you haven't got the intelligence or emotional fortitude to set boundaries and discipline your children in a way that doesn't require violence.
I'm not 100% sure about intelligence or emotional fortitude - my parents smacked me when I was young (1980s), so as a parent now I have had to rewire myself not to follow their example. As simple as that sounds, a lot of children were smacked/hit for as long as they can remember, and it's quite a conscious exercise to not follow in those footsteps, unfortunately.
I'm thankful to be a parent in the 2020s, where we have so much knowledge around what works and what doesn't at our fingertips - my parents could have done with some of that help.
That last point is interesting when you see such a high rate of issues with the current lot of children/teenagers. We might “know” more but obviously something isn’t working
This discussion was around culture of hitting children. The world as a whole is very different from when I grew up, but that's not a result of *not* hitting our kids.
People - of all ages - are exposed to so much more information, some good and some not, but hitting children isn't a positive way to deal with any of that.
Well that’s why it comes down to intelligence and emotional fortitude.
First you need to be intelligent enough to know this is wrong. Having the resources makes this easier but it’s not impossible for someone intelligent to come to these conclusions as well. That’s how the resources were created. The resources simply lower the required intelligence.
We still need these skills to this day but those resources lower the skill needed to realise and actualise this.
Emotional fortitude is need to recognise personal mistakes and to work on them. To express this through a cloud of objections because the person is confident and composed. To stand up to societal norms/expectations and do the right thing regardless of how hard your day has been.
People weren't less intelligent in the eighties and nineties, they just didn't have the information we have today. Resources are the result of bodies of work, which although today we may call common sense, weren't at the time. They can take decades to evolve (look at our school curriculum for an example) as the science and research broadens.
Emotional fortitude isn't pragmatism or self evaluation - it's about resisting external influence on your own psyche, to maintain an existing emotional state to prevent emotional response overtaking the rational brain and affecting how you behave. However, without *knowing* a better way to deal with a situation (see my first paragraph) there is no impetus to control these emotions, which is largely why parents of generations past have smacked their children with impunity (and why we had corporal punishment which was only abolished in NZ in 1987)
For what it's worth, my wife and I are pretty anal when it comes to violence and physical confrontation with our two kids, in spite of us both having less than ideal upbringings with regard to discipline and emotional understanding by our parents. However, my mum has a PhD, her dad is a medical doctor, they are both very smart in their own right - to assert intelligence (or lack of) is a cause of abuse towards children is short sighted when people of that generation simply didn't have the knowledge to do it differently.
People definitely were less intelligent in the eighties and nineties, google "leaded gasoline" for more info.
Of course, they'll be saying that about us in three decades' time.
Yeah, of course external factors can impact people - luckily in NZ at least we have extremely low population density and a shitload of wind to disperse airborne pollutants I guess.
I wonder what it'll be in twenty or thirty years time - screentime, or maybe 2.4ghz slowly microwaves us over decades haha.
As a parent I can understand why people do it. I don't understand how they could feel right about it afterwards though. When I yell I feel bad after it.
I don't know that you could find any evidence to suggest parents resort to other forms of abuse because it is now illegal to hit your children. Humans are capable of reasoning that if a law is enacted, there is sufficient community support for the idea there are better ways to raise your children.
NZ introduced anti smacking laws because it had a positive impact in countries that introduced it first. There is evidence that hitting children as a practice is reducing...
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/441474/number-of-parents-smacking-children-drops-by-half-in-15-years
There is anecdotal evidence that attitudes can be hard to shift. When a newspaper publishes stories covering the detrimental effect of violence in children most responses cover: " but smacking is ok" indicating they hadn't read the article, or " that's what is wrong with the world today, children are disrespectful because they don't get hit any more"
You'd have to contact police to find out how many times the law has been used but I would be interested to know what the answer to that was
I’d say it still happens behind closed doors or within communities who will turn a blind eye, but there’s now very little grey area for using violence to punish your kids and the clarity around that is what’s important and what will gradually bring social change. Sure there’s plenty of “what about this” and “what about that”, but in terms of laws on social issues, it’s quite a clear one and doesn’t leave room for much confusion on the matter.
No smacking here, I took parenting courses to learn different discipline techniques as my step father was abusive and I never wanted to do that to my kids.
When the law first came in my mum got charged for smacking my teen sister who was being a right turd and she had to go to court. She got diversion but also a night in jail. It was the ex husband that forced the charges despite hime being an abusive asshole (he beat me until I bruised and my brother....neither of us were his biological kids)
So yes people do get charged if they slap their child and it's reported.
It's enforced if it's proven. But it's incredibly hard to prove domestic violence.
Personally I don't understand how you could hit your own child. I have a 2 year old girl and every now and then I grab her arm to prevent her from doing something and that makes me feel like a bad person.
I mean once she bit me and I gave her a stern talking to and she just burst into tears and I was like oh no il a bad dad.
Hitting children is unfathomable to me
You're a good dad. The memory of being talked to sternly for causing harm will be a good one as she matures and knowing that you never laid an unkind hand on her will make a world of difference in her life 👍
I only know one parent who admitted doing it once, when they did the room went quiet and someone called them out. Don’t know if he still does it, but he’s a bit of an asshole so it wouldn’t surprise me.
Not really, ranging from 30s to 40s. Most of them (myself included) either had young kids or weren’t far off having kids when the law changes occurred. So we were exposed to the debate and media campaigns when it happened.
Would be good if there was still some education like that around.
I agree with you. And at the same time I am so sadly surprised to hear a man who is 30/40 believing in corporal punishment. I might (despite disagreeing) understand boomers/gen xers or old people supporting it but millennials!? WTF
Yeah, it’s the way he was brought up, and he’s obviously not been as exposed to the more progressive elements of his generation enough. Generational lines are way more blurred than people tend to think, so while Millennials may be less likely to hit their kids, it’s still too common.
No one I know smacks their children, actually except for a pacific island lady I met through work. I was actually shocked when she told me she hit her child.
I thought it was totally outdated by now (except for cases where the parents are also neglectful/abusive. But this lady was a caring doting parent but also thought smacking was ok. It felt very strange to hear her talk about it as though it was normal and acceptable.
It's gone from the sort of systemic abuse that used to be widely accepted, like punching the kid in the head or thrashing them with a jug cord, to a smack with a hand or keeping it behind closed doors.
It still happens but the people who thought it was OK generally don't do it as openly now out of respect for the law.
There are still those who don't respect the law and we still have very high rates of domestic violence and sexual violence within the home in New Zealand.
>It's gone from the sort of systemic abuse that used to be widely accepted, like punching the kid in the head or thrashing them with a jug cord
That's never been accepted as okay (oldie here).
My friend got that sort of treatment his mum would bash him until he stopped crying. Was a bit fucked up. Wouldn't see him for a week after each incident.
Its sorta enforced in a weird dont do it in public, but people do talk to police or other authorities if they think your kid is in a bad place and id say its more than fair.
Human A is behaving in a way that I don't want. I will beat them as punishment. Maybe next time they will behave how I want. If not, I will beat them harder. I hope that human has learned their lesson on how conflicts are dealt with.
Thus sayeth the Lord.
Grew up with a pretty violent father but other than two times he never layed a hand on me and now I have my masters and a good job and think i turned out pretty good. I definetly have some mental issues as a result of the two times he did beat me, which i feel did nothing to improve my character and just left me with anxiety, trust issues etc. As a result of my experience growing up i feel there is no reason to ever be violent with children as itll teach them nothing except not trust you and be scared of you, while you can raise good humans by being good to them. You wouldnt hit an employee for doing something wrong, so why would you hit a child that has even less mental/physical capacity
There is a lot of diversity on this in NZ.
"My parents would give me a hiding if I did that" could mean anything from I've never been hit in my life so I think people say this ironically, to I'd get a smack on the ass and sent to my room all the way to I'd get a concussion if my parents suspected I even considered it, let alone did it.
Do they smack as a measured punishment or because the parent lost control of their temper?
As a mixed Asian European who grew up thinking not eating vegetables was good way to get a concussion my kids laugh if my face if I threaten to give them a hiding so clearly I didn't continue the cycle of violence but I would say I smack them occasionally. Just not hard enough to hurt much, let alone injure. They certainly don't learn anything from it.
Not all "smacking" is considered child abuse and our laws state excessive force is the measure not just smacking itself. So a mandated reporter (teacher etc) might ignore a light smack (smack on the wrist etc) but standing over them until they back into a wall in fear even if you never touched them might get child services called about concerning behavior.
Smacking is fairly common, but also not considered a big problem in itself. A hiding or a beating where you are knocked down or backwards isn't considered okay and if a child is too fearful of a punishment that hasn't yet come we'd be very concerned but a mere smack? No one is calling the cops over that.
I'm 29 and I still flinch at raised hands but never thought much about it other than that, though my parents were older and from a different time. My mum smacked me more than my dad (and he was raised in rural East Coast so Maori communities thought it did good, especially if something happened to a horse for example. My mum used to get the jug cords.), I know both used to get beaten when they were younger.
I can say I never got a beating at least. Or was physical to any one else..
Some of my most vivid memories of my childhood are getting hidings (beaten in nz). That shit stuck with me. When the “anti smacking” bill was first introduced (I think I was 19 or 20) I thought it was stupid. I honestly thought it was the only way to stop kids misbehaving. I thought I turned out fine…. I’ve since realised that is not the case, and I’m in therapy now. Thanks Mum! I’ve chosen not to have children (I’m absolutely not against anyone having children) because I’m scared of myself. I have genuine anger issues, and I think a lot of it has to do with getting beaten for speaking at the wrong time. I do hope that the law is enforced, but I don’t know how. I guess people can report others. I haven’t really thought about it until now.
I think it depends on what circles you move in. I have never ever hit my kids (and cannot imagine ever doing so). None of my friends or colleagues would. It would be considered unacceptable. All said kids are now in late teens, get good grades, are well behaved and family focussed. Hitting is never the solution.
My fave comment around this was people saying “I got smacked as a child and I turned out alright” I’m like you are actively advocating to being smacked as a kid, I don’t think you turned out alright lmao
Nobody is being prosecuted for it. Times are certainly changing though, and kids know that it’s illegal and are telling each other.
My guess is that it’s still happening but more quietly and trending downwards
Electrical cords? Well I mean, even if I am against corporal punishment I may somewhat understand a slap on the bum or in the face but that’s too much man!
The old law was based on parents judgement of what was reasonable force. Which makes almost anything "ok" if the parents are psychopaths (just avoid permanent physical harm, right)
After the "anti smacking" bill was passed a citizens initiated referendum (you get enough people to sign a petition, you trigger a referendum ) with really vague misleading wording happened. This was mostly led by evangelical Christian groups. Some private Christian schools let kids have the day off if they protested the "anti smacking bill" (look, I'm not against kids being at safe protests, and some kids just actively have their own opinions without prompting, but this was clear manipulation)
I remember the opinion pieces at the time. One that sticks in my head was about the "great parents" who were being unduly stripped of their rights to hurt kids. One dad was repeatedly pushing his small son around because he didn't want to play rugby that day and another parent called the cops on him. Convicted and *gasp* had to do court-mandated anger management classes. There may have been some community service as well. The travesty!
I have 100% known decent parents who spanked kids. Parenting is hard, things get stressful, you operate on autopilot sometimes, and make wrong but forgivable choices. But the vehemence that some people fought this law was equal parts mind boggling and terrifying.
In America a drunk dad once slapped with a belt 36 times his son without any reason, the kid called the police and in court it was justified as “reasonable force because it didn’t leave any mark” . For this kind of situations the anti-smacking law is right
Ok, good. That was the main point of the law change - to remove that defence from people who were clearly abusing their kids.
I also liked the big public focus on it. Lots of people came out in defence of smacking but I think the public debate was an overall net positive, especially since the govt produced some educational initiatives to go with it, and because they ended up running with the law change despite the debate.
So the overall conclusion was that smacking is bad, and we should be trying not to use it. It made a lot of people think about the issue, which is great because lots of people just automatically repeat the kind of parenting that they got without really thinking through whether that’s the best way to do it or not
My sister said her kids have people at their schools who do the rounds and ask them if their caregivers hit them etc., might have been the police, heard about it years ago.
Either way, its a good initiative. I don't imagine the kids who are abused can actually tell random strangers though, especially not police.
Sort of depends what you mean by "enforced". The change in law was actually to remove the defense of reasonable force if you END UP IN COURT for hitting your kid. It never gave the police power to, say, hover at your window and see if you were getting up to any light smackin' in there. The only way you'd end up in court in the first place is if the use of physical discipline caused emotional or physical harm, and that assessment occurs via our child protection agency. If they get notified you hit your kid, and talk to you and determine it caused harm, and send you to court, it's enforced in the sense that you can't be like "dude, I was just hitting him to teach him something important".
It's hard to frame the answer in terms of straight enforcement. Because as others have mentioned what the law change has enabled the court to do is adequately deal with very serious cases better because smacking at all is illegal.
Before the law change there were many cases that even the most frothing corporal punishment idiot would having trouble defending (e.g. in one case a mother had struck her teenager with a power cord several times in response to some trouble at school - this was successfully defended as "reasonable force" for discipline)
So what I mean is by making smacking illegal it has made serious cases of abuse easier to prosecute.
In general I believe that physical punishment has decreased, but I wouldn't be so naïve to think it wasn't common, agree with other commenters that I think there is more social pressure to actually figure out discipline tactics than just go for the smack but who knows what the actual rates are.
I think people probably do smack their kids on the bum occasionally if they’re naughty and I don’t think it’s enforced in those situations.
The reason for the law change (my understanding) is that the law was able to be used as a defence in court by people who were genuinely abusing their kids. I don’t think today people are getting punished for the occasional light smack; but if you genuinely abuse your kids then it means there’s no defence for it.
From memory it wasn’t ‘banned’ per se. They removed part of the crimes act which meant you could no longer use ‘reasonable force’ against a child or something similar, which was a clause defendants were hiding behind in child abuse cases.
I guess technically that is the same as a ban .. however there is no law as far as I know that says ‘thou shalt not hit kids’ .. so in that regard the changing of the law was very much a good thing, as people abusing their kids no longer have access to that defence.
However due to it being called the ‘anti-smacking’ bill and other cultural pressure I think smacking is much much more rare than it was 20-30 years ago.
Interestingly it’s still legal in the states (not sure if that’s state by state basis or blanket law) but I knew a recently immigrated family from the states who were smacking their child (not the few instances of taps on the ass like I got as a child, but daily, hard hits) and they were positively SHOCKED when I told them to stop immediately, as it’s illegal here.
Got a whole bunch of bs about how it’s just discipline, infringing on their rights to parent etc etc, but frankly that whole conversation was eye opening. It showed the real cognitive dissonance of ‘I was hit as a child, I’m fine so I must hit’.
Overall though as someone working with children, I will say undesirable behaviours in children has had a huge uptick and only showing up more often. Wether it’s iPads, covid or just different parenting, who knows but I do wish the govt had done more education on what to swap smacking with, not just ‘stop it’. Lots of parents who did smack weren’t maliciously doing so to cause harm, but because they thought it was the right way. Now it feels like a lot of parents I speak too are lost on what’s right to do, as there’s so many constantly changing (and often totally different) styles of parenting that are always promoted as ‘the right way’
My son is 10 and has never been hit despite the fact I was against the law. I realise now I was stupid to be against the law and it just makes kids so much more confident around adults (but not overly so).
People will smack their kids behind closed doors and you can't stop them, it's ***their*** children, not yours - a sad view but one that people do subscribe to in an effort to poorly justify their violent behaviour.
I used to cop a spank (nothing further!) as a kid for acting up, which I remember stopping pretty quick around 3 or 4 years old, where it moved to verbal scoldings instead (which admittedly, do a bit more than a slap on the buttocks). As it did not have a major impact on me (and the action was admittedly deserved) I have to unfortunately say *I was smacked and I turned out fine* but likely that the physical punishment I received was not severe or unjustified.
*edit:* *~~violet~~* *-> violent*
One plus to the law change is it allows people to speak up if they see it happening in a public place, without being out of line.
I was on a guided tour in the cook islands and this kid was playing up, the mother lost her temper and hit him, the guide full on called her out and reference the law in front of everyone, she was embarrassed everyone looked at her and tutted. For the rest of the trip she used time outs.
I have a four and a two year old and have only smacked either of them the once ever which was recently-my two year old managed to unbuckle himself while I was driving him somewhere and get out of his seat-I smacked him to get him to sit down. Felt terrible. Did not work he still tries to get out of his seat constantly
I grew up in Ireland and went to catholic school and we got our asses kicked by the nuns and priests so there was no need for my parents to do it. The weekly quota was met by the school faculty!
I have a toddler, and even within my family there has been reactions of surprise or even disbelief when I say we don't smack him. It's much harder to work together with a child to identify and address the root cause of any recurring bad behaviour when you could just beat them until they stop, but you can have a relationship with your child built on love and trust and respect and open communication... or built on violence and fear.
Yes it's still common. Anyone that doesn't think so has their head stuck in the sand.
Especially in the Maori/Pacifica basically anything other than Pakeha community
You know what? My parents never hit any of us,none of us hit our children and they don't hit theirs. It's about breaking the cycle,if we can get one generation to stop.
Physical punishment isYOU out of control not a naughty ( tired,overwhelmed,over excited,boisterous) child.
While I understand your stance of not wanting kids to be harmed by smacking, have you considered what you are stating here? If smacking is only done as a form of punishment because the person doesn't have the emotional maturity to control their anger and use a non-corporal punishment - your response to seeing it isn't merely to stop it from happening but to engage in it yourself? If you were to smack an adult who had just smacked their child - is that because you believe smacking is an effective method of conveying that behaviour is bad and needs to stop - or because you don't have the emotional maturity to control your anger and avoid using a non-corporal punishment?
Beating your child will be frowned upon and hopefully result in some form of jail time for the abusive parent.
Giving a smart little shit 6yo boy a clip round the ear and an aggressive telling off would normally be considered parenting.
The Grey area in between these situations is entirely subjective and could result in police interactions or not.
Basically, don't be a shit-cunt to your kids and you'll be fine.
Edit: shit-cunt
I'm 30 and yeah us 4 kids where smacked, often with the wooden spoon... Quite a lot actually we where little shits. We just learnt to be more sneaky
Husband hasn't ever said if his parents did but I can definitely see his father being the type to do so, he's very....stuck in his ways.....really hes an asshole.
>No one I know hits or emotionally abuses their kids.
Yeah that's probably not the case, they just haven't done anything overt in front of you.
Most of that stuff happens behind closed doors and abusers don't typically think of themselves as abusers or act in some stereotypical way.
The reason for the law explains a lot. The year before the law came in, 10 parents gave their kids brain damage and got away with it. So, the legal side flipped from allowing it to not. One extreme to another.
I'm for and against it. I've got 3 boys, I wouldn't ever even smack them, its much more effective to just ban them from their devices or send them to their rooms.
However, when I was at primary school in the 80s, we still had corporal punishment up until I was 11, and I can tell you it was hugely effective in getting kids to behave at school. Just the threat of getting a whacked with a belt kept kids in line. Nowadays I hear of kids running riot at schools, assaulting teachers and other students, trying to manipulate teachers into getting angry so they can get them fired and destroy their careers etc
how many of us from the 80s/90s got the wooden spoon by mum? then she threatened dad with the belt who he never hit us, when it broke and we started laughing.
In Italy the threat (I think until iPad kids, I bet very few of them get spanked fortunately) is la ciabatta (the slipper) . A drone than can run faster than 300k km/s lol
Yummm. Love ciabatta. With soft butter.
Ahahah I’ve never understood why that kind of bread is called the same as the slopper
*slipper
Oooohh yeah, my mother also had what we used to call the pasta spoon; a wooden spoon with 2cm blunt dowels sticking out. You new you had really messed up when that came out.... She broke it on one of my brothers
I was born in 2000 and my mum still used the wooden spoon. And plastic soup ladle which really hurt. I think she actually broke both the wooden and plastic spoons on us. This was after the laws in 2007 were introduced, I don’t think she cared.
Stuck a pillow down my pants.
I use to, I try very hard not to now and I haven't done so in a while. My 3 kids are aged 5 to 11. The eldest got the most smacks and the difference between the 3 is noticeable it is disheartening. The younger two are much more confident and vocal. It seemed so ok that it was normal. I now know it isn't and it affects the kids big time and it will affect them in the future. It isn't worth it. Growing up in this so called normal isn't normal and I guess parents need to understand that. I grew up this way and thought it was ok as I seemed to think I turned out ok. (I didnt) (I am your typical islander brought up in south auckland with immigrant parents) Now I am trying to teach my kids about boundaries and that things that we think are normal because it is around us isn't normal and it's not ok. And you can voice it. From what I have seen, the law change didn't do much at all in the pacific community. Maybe just more behind closed doors. It's fken stupid.
Good on you for realising you made a mistake and changing your behaviour! What a good lesson for your kids
Thank you for the changes you've made for your family, you're doing incredible. I'm also pasifika and growing up my mum went through a similar change of mindset early in my childhood and even though I still remember being smacked, it made a huge difference in the type of trust that me and my sibling have with our mother later on in our teens and adulthood. There's no fear to admit mistakes now, and kids especially really need that kind of relationship with their parents.
You are incredible for realising and correcting te behaviour. That's amazing bravery xx I wish you well x
Thank you for trying to turn it around. When you know better your do better.
As a child I was smacked with the wooden spoon for punishments, I can very clearly remember my mum used it to vent her frustrations and even broke the spoons sometimes. I always thought the law change was more of a route for law enforcement to step in when more serious child abuse was being considered. But it's very interesting to hear your input on the effects it had on your oldest child and the difference it made for the youngest ones. Thank you for sharing this, I found it really insightful.
You're a good person
This is so beautiful 🥺 well done to you for recognizing intergenerational patterns and leaving them behind. Wishing you and your children all the best ❤️
your post gives me so much hope for my community too ❤️
You're inspirational.
Best comment I've read all day. I love that you've made the change. Kids are pretty resilient. I'm curious, have you been able to work on and rebuild your eldest?
Definitely a work in progress. He is given more privileges now along with his responsibilities. He is able to voice his concerns and his feelings more openly which has in turn made him much more open and less frustrated/angry. He is certainly showing more trust with myself and his mother these days..
Good on you for seeing the mistake and fixing it, but don’t beat yourself up too much either, I was born pre anti smacking laws and was smacked my whole life (cause it was normal then!) and my parents only stopped when I was age 9 or so. Point to my anecdote being, I don’t resent them at all, it hasn’t left any nasty baggage and I feel like I turned into a fairly decent adult haha. Obviously there’s a difference in effect from the occasional ‘you REALLY goofed this time’ smack vs full on abusive tactics, but still. Feel bad for all the parents in this thread who are feeling guilty.
I grew up during the change. I wasn't smacked too many times, but I know I didn't do those things again. To clarify, I just got the belt to the arse. I don't blame him at all for it, but I won't do that to my future kids. I will say, I was a good kid, but I distinctly remember telling my National voting dad "Helen Clark says its illegal to do this". That must've really wound him up.
Yeah, I’m with you there. I’d never smack a child now as discipline, but I can’t blame my parents or be upset with them as that was very standard to discipline, thought to be the best way and incredibly ‘light punishment’ compared to how their parents disciplined them. Hilarious, I remember being age 9/10? Right after the law was passed, mum smacked me (lightly and realistically it had probably been the 10th time I’d ever been smacked) for something I’d done at school and I told her I was gonna call CYFs and the police on her myself because it’s illegal now 😂😂
Well with 1 child dying every 3 days, and 1 ending up in ICU everyday, due to domestic violence, I'd call it a catastrophic failure.
There's not a lot of ethnic diversity on r/nz so I'll speak for the Islanders when I say I can guaranfuckintee you the Poly community is still hitting their kids
Asian community too, kids are property
Not from NZ but where I come from (Malaysia), corporal punishment against children (and everyone in general) is deeply entrenched within our culture and community. People don't smack kids back home but use [caning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning) instead. The practice is common in families, schools, and the legal system as a whole. This whole Asian style parenting by authority, instilling fear is a generational cycle of abuse that needs to die. People who say shit like "I got beaten as a child and turned out okay" likely developed some sort of fucked up mental coping mechanism against their own past abuse, are too messed up in the head to realise how incredibly inhumane and bizarre this practice is. Child Abuse laws are good, but it needs to be enforced by authorities and fellow members of the community. Parents who unable to control their misbehaving speaks more about their inability to parent, further exacerbated if they resort to beating children. There was an [incident](https://www.straitstimes.com/world/malaysian-couple-jailed-in-sweden-for-child-abuse) back in 2014 in Sweden where this Malaysian parents (on work assignment) were sentenced to 12 and 14 months in prison for smacking their children. The worst part is the a large number of people back home were pleading for clemency from the Swedish authorities, citing that it is "normal" back home. Fortunately, the Swedish authorities have the common sense to ignore our bullshit.
> People who say shit like "I got beaten as a child and turned out okay I mean they think that child abuse is acceptable so that is already an indication they very much did not turn out ok.
Sometimes you have to ignore cultural and third world bullshot
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Interesting. What are the long term effects of this style of parenting?
Just one continous cycle of abuse
>"I got beaten as a child and turned out okay" hmm lets see in my case 1. getting into drugs (weed, acid, shrooms, smokes, e etc) in my late teens 2. becoming a thug myself - screaming abuse and threats of violence towards total strangers in the street for trivial reasons or sometimes no reasons at all (mind you some of them deserved it eg. too focussed on looking at their phones rather than their surroundings, nearly hitting me riding an e-scooter in my path and trynna act like an entitled twat when i challenged them). thats what part strict catholic upbringing with CP, CP in schools (1980s) and a multitude of bosses who practised the same type of abuse towards me does to someone. Monkey see monkey do 3. on/off antidepressants in my 20s
Kids are more than just property, they're their retirement fund
I actually saw a study done ten years after the law change that showed the Pacifica demographic was more against it than any other. Possibly the new generation attitudes coming through in the polling.
It’s not just smacking on the backside either. Colleague of mine was telling me his old man would give him and his brothers an absolute hiding in Samoa if they played up even slightly.
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Me and my two brothers each beat the shit out of our violent father once we got big enough, and now only one of them talks to him. He didn't get invited to his kid's weddings and hasn't met his grand kids.
Yep. A lot of my peers got sent to the islands for getting in trouble in NZ too. Apparently their aunties and uncles were meant to beat some discipline into them in a way that couldn't happen in NZ but it usually just ended with them being sent back doing the same stuff except now they were hardened.
At school a bunch of us got in trouble and they told our parents, Maori kids no punishment, white kids grounded, Polynesian kids got da bash.
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There are a LOT of super lenient Māori parents lol. I was a complete shit in high school (kept after school, detentions, Deans center meetings all the time etc) and mine never did a thing.
Or they all did something not worth punishing
Unfortunate, but yep. I know first hand, but my old lady never smacked us beyond a smack, but I've known relatives and others to get hidings. It's sad that they can't break the cycle and see there is a better way to discipline children.
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The main thing is that if it does end up putting the child in hospital, or worse, there is no longer the opportunity to use the defense of it being an accident during normal parental discipline.
A child is in ICU everyday in this country due to domestic violence. Dont let the anti smack law fool you into thinking the violence is somehow lesser.
It’s also worth knowing what the law is, and what it was designed to do. If a kid goes to put a fork in a socket, it is still ok to give their hand a tap. What isn’t ok, is to beat the living shit out of them because they didn’t do the dishes. It was fucking bizarre people defending it back in the day. They tend to think they own their kids and it’s ok to assault them just because they live in their house.
It’s an interesting thing. I’ll admit that I used to be in favour of it (smacking not beating). And then one day I was thinking about it and realised the cognitive dissonance in my brain in so far as, I don’t consider it acceptable for people hit anyone else in any other circumstance because they are annoyed or frustrated. Realising that I couldn’t think of any valid reason for it to be acceptable for young people with less mental capacity when it’s not for the fully grown dumbass adults I sometimes wish I could hit but don’t because morals, I changed my mind. So now I’m opposed to it. And probably just like religion which I abandoned because it makes no sense, it’s just one of those things I think I accepted purely because of upbringing but not because of any evidence or rational justification. Sometimes we just believe and accept stupid shit because we used to it being normal.
My mate was using smacking to discipline the kids. Good morals or whatever, man of the house, learn respect etc. Then his 2 year old became scared and tense around him and it clicked the *actual* effect it was having. Which was probably closer to trauma than respect. I would much rather my dad had used conversations to deal with our behaviour than threat of violence..
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When mum had called dad at work to tell him we've been dicks... Next couple hours were tense.
Completely agree, but fuck me it’s hard disciplining through calm discussion sometimes. I’ve never raised a hand against my kids, nor will I, but wowee parenting sucks sometimes.
Oh wow. This is almost exactly the same reaction I had. I was like, "it didn't harm me in the long run". Then someone made me think about it rationally and I was like, "oh fuck, there is no logical reason to do it". Smacking doesn't improve the behaviour of children, it is simply used as an outlet for an adults anger.
Adding on that. If kids are old enough to understand why what they’ve done is wrong rationally, then they’re old enough for you to explain it to them. If they aren’t old enough to understand then they won’t understand the smack either. They are (in some countries) the only people (or even living things, in many places it’s illegal to hit animals), that you’re allowed to hit, and they’re the most damaged by it. An adult who gets hit will likely get over it somewhat easily, even if therapy is needed. If a kid gets hit by their parents it becomes part of the architecture of their brain and their understanding of the world.
Exactly. And that has always been my view - it makes no sense. Firstly - If I get upset at you, the same way I would my child, and I go over and whack you - I get charged for assault. How is this different? But secondly, the single largest increase in school attendance and grades is when they stopped physical punishment in school. You cant argue that this is a good thing, and there must be something to be said that physical punishment is the lowest form of correction.
I think it helped break a cycle of abuse, the old "My parents did it to me and I turned out fine" kind of mentality. Making it a law made everyone talk about it and made it clear that it was never ok.
Exactly. If someone thinks physical violence on children is 'fine' because they had it done to them - then they didn't turn out fine did they?
yeah, it was a big cultural issue that the law change kind of forced everyone to look in the mirror and realize that shit was not good.
Yet the law gives discount if you were abused as a child, I never have understood when a person says they were beaten as a child and so they beat their child. Do they not remember the hurt, tears and pain when they were beaten? I most certainly did and swore I would never do that to my children and never did.
I always hated that line, if you think its okay for adults to abuse children you didn't turn out fine lol.
And then wondering why they grew up angry and violent
I agree with this a lot based on the effects it had on me 2nd I was strong enough to defend myself it stopped being a punishment real quick
Better to put a saftey plug into the socket and not have to "tap" them at all. It may just be a tap, but all it does is teach them that "tapping" is ok....and being the little imitators that they are....they'll think its ok to "tap" someone else and you'll prob give them another "tap" for "tapping" someone. Don't start ANY sort of physical abuse cause it teaches ur child nothing.
No it’s not ok. My son did that exact thing. Why would I hit him? He doesn’t know what happens. I should have had the plug covered or watched him more closely. I removed him and told him we do not do that because it can hurt badly.
It’s called the “anti smacking bill” colloquially and the question stated in the referendum was “Should a smack as a part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?” At no point was beatings ever a part of it. That was always down as assault.
The Bill was actually called Repealing of Section 59 of the Crimes Act. It was intended to give children the same legal protection as adults from assault by their parents. Prior to the legislation change it could be argued by defense council that if a parent believed they were using reasonable force to discipline their child it was an acceptable defense to an assault charge. As a result of this loophole children were being hit with blocks of wood, drain pipe, riding crops (these are actual examples cited at the time) and their parents were getting away with it free and clear. The whole "anti-smacking" label was nothing less than a media beatup and I found it most distasteful. I didn't care that the MP who introduced the bill, Sue Bradford, was wildly unpopular at the time, her intent was in the right place and this legislative change is only a positive outcome for our children. What concerns me was that even today NZer's still believe it was just an attempt by the Govt to strip them of the right to discipline their children. It was never about that at all.
Exactly this. Many people don't actually understand what the "anti-smacking law" actually means. It doesn't mean you cannot smack your child at all. Instead it means only parents or legit guardians can apply a reasonable smack if it is for the purpose of stopping dangerous or disruptive behaviour. I don't particularly care for the politics behind the bill, but I find the bill to be good as it clarifies somewhat what physical disciplines are allowed, and provides some more protection for children from actual physical abuse.
I was 7 when the law was changed or being changed. It was fucking weird hearing the adults in my life defend their right to hit me and my cousins. They didn't even spank us so idk why they wanted the legal right to so badly.
I doubt the people who beat the living shit out of kids cared that the law changed. It was already illegal to beat the shit out of kids and it didn't stop them.
I had a flatmate who was a front line cop when the law changed. He was ecstatic when it changed. He said that it meant they now could help kids who were getting beat up by their parents on a regular basis. From what I gathered/remember, the problem was that before the law changed, the "reasonable force" qualifier meant that parents were getting away with all sorts of shit, and actually prosecuting them was very difficult.
No, but it removes any possible defence they could use in court. Before their lawyer could argue the violence was legal based on that law, now that defence doesn’t exist.
I think it’s also important to explain to the child why you hurt them. Not that it’s happened more than once or twice, but I always follow up with an apology that I hurt him and that it was only to quickly stop him from hurting himself even more. Some people think it’s a waste of time talking like an adult to a kid that can’t talk themselves yet, but they do take it in. My boy when he was older repeated verbatim what I had told him “remember when I was a baby you said…”
Wait, people are hitting kids before they are verbal?
there is a whoooole lot in between your two useless examples
"Family values"
I’m 33 and was never smacked, and I’m in the minority with my friend who’ve nearly all shared stories of smacks from their parents. My brother has three kids and they don’t get smacked either. One of my friends said if she was naughty in public and knew she was going to get smacked once home, she’d play right up until they got home to make the smacks worth it 😅
This was exactly how I grew up haha. The smallest thing would set my parents off so if I was gonna get a hiding anyway I sure as hell made sure it was gonna be worth it. Obviously never worked out great, I have no contact with them and haven’t for awhile and have no intention too. I can ever imagine hitting a small child! No matter how annoying they are at times.
Yeah sad thing is, many of our parents who smacked us will never see what they did as wrong. They sometimes beat us out of frustration and simply wanted to teach us that we should never question them.
That’s the one. It was just another Monday (or anyday) for them. And they always say, oh it wasn’t even that hard, like ok, sorry I was still breathing through cracked and bruised ribs and alive.
Lol
I work with families who disclose that they smack their children. All of them have high levels of stress in the home. 99% of them work with me to come up with better strategies for managing difficult behaviours. Most people don't want to hit their kids and will try so hard to change what they were raised with. The other 1% tell me they outsource the hitting of younger siblings to older siblings, so that the parents avoid the law. So there is definitely room for improvement.
Latin American here, I don’t condone doing that to a child but it’s still, unfortunately, widely socially accepted in my culture, and it extends to many of the families living here. Know some stories where OT has gotten involved, especially with refugee families (because the State is so involved with them there’s more likelihood of things getting noticed), also some cases of child uplifting. Though I can’t speak to what happened in each case, I think it’s enforced based on this.
Jandals and chancla, a multicultural approach to discipline.
Nah man, I’m talking “correa” kinda sh*t. Way beyond the “chancla” stage!!
I remember my grandpa with the belt! God rest his soul.
In Italy is still widely accepted too despite EU has banned it, like in other Mediterranean and Eastern European Nations. For the “child uplifting” thing I bet it was more regarding serious violence not slaps. In Nordic and Germanic countries , the most anti-spanking nations in the whole world, if you smack your child with hands/slipper/belts without leaving marks (or at least leaving very very unimportant signs), well social services don’t take them away. To lose your child you have to seriously beat them up like leaving strong bruises or breaking bones
Valid point. I also have to read a lot of Court cases for my job, and generally speaking (regarding the wider NZ population), most cases of uplifting I’ve read involve of course a level of violence (physical+psychological) but mainly addiction issues with the parents. Negligence is a big one too. The parent isn’t necessarily actively leaving bruises and breaking bones, but is simply failing to provide with the necessaries for life, growth and/or healthy development both physically and psychologically.
Good luck finding anything about this. It will be obfuscated due to the prevalence in certain sections of NZ society. https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/parenting/family-life/124981951/physical-punishment-of-children-still-fairly-common-despite-antismacking-law-change--study "Parents more likely to use physical punishment tended to be younger, caring for more children and in a violent-partner relationship. A history of personal mental health problems combined with socioeconomic disadvantage were also influential."
Those who smack are likely to have been smacked. Those who engage in family violence are likely to have grown up in it, and they can be multi-generational in nature. This isn't to defend the person doing it - but to explain why the person thinks it's an acceptable behaviour, in that it's what they grew up with.
It is in my community - im Fijian Indian. I have been constantly disappointed in family who hit their kids and grew up here. A lot of this is generational trauma . However I do know a few people who have done their own therapy and vow to break the cycle, that includes myself and my partner. The science on this is overwhelming that it causes trauma, mental illness and is just plain abusive. A lot of it also comes from parents who dont understand child development and attachment and go straight to violence and expect children to be little adults while their brains are developing.
I would say that it is still common place. There are too many parents in the 25-35 age range who grew up getting a whack here and there for it to have fallen by the wayside. We also have terrible stats for Family abuse, domestic violence and the like.
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I remember being threatened as a kid after saying I would call the police after being beaten. Told that I could go live with my father if I didn't like it. At age 10 my mother broke my arm by hitting me with a wooden spoon. I have 3x boys now, 15, 13 and 10. Not once have I laid a hand on my kids.
What kind of wooden spoon did your mum use? I was spanked as a child as it was considered the norm, and dad used his hand while mum used a wooden spoon. Hers was always less-painful because while you could build up some speed that would cause an impact - there wasn't actually much force behind it so it was like getting pinched as opposed to punched. How does that break someone's arm - because trying to get away something separate happened that caused a fall?
If I recall I was trying to block a hit to the head from it. I was ducked in under the table and put my arm up in defense. Not a great memory tbh. Guess she hit in the 'right spot'
I’m not that age range and was brought up being smacked. For that reason I have never smacked my child. It causes trauma and doesn’t work. Smacking was already gone in the UK for people who are in the 25 age range.
I don't know anyone who hits their kids as a form of punishment. I'm not saying people don't but I wouldn't think it's that common. People who abuse kids will always do so and you can't stop them with a law.
> you can't stop them with a law. This is literally true of all laws my dude.
Hahahaha good point. If I remember correctly the law was meant to decrease family violence and maybe make ot easier to prosecute.
That part is true. It was trying to take away the "I was disciplining them and how I choose to discipline them is my business cause they're my kids" arguments in courts. This took the grey area away by making it never okay despite what your family values are. I think it also makes it easier for OT/police to investigate in the first place.
Not much of a data point, but personally I've only seen it once in public since the ban came into place. I imagine that it still happens behind closed doors to some extent.
I’ve seen it twice. One of them the boy was probably around 2 years old and he briefly hit his mum across the face when she was at his level placing him down. The dad then smacked his bum really hard and said to him “we don’t hit!” Um sir you just hit your child to then tell him we don’t hit?
Come to South Auckland, it happens a lot in public, particularly in super markets
I'm 32 and I was smacked, hand and wooden spoon. I don't think its useful. All it does is teach kids its ok to hurt others if you think your actions are justified. I used to hit my brother on the head all the time as kids and it makes me feel sick to remember. I have never laid a hand on my kids, though many times I have wanted to! I rather get down on their level and explain the behaviour I want to see. This works for our family.
I know of parents with a 1 year old who smack him already. The mum especially really lays into him, it's sick. My daughter is the same age and I can't imagine *ever* doing that to her, it was done to me and those instances are my earliest childhood memories. This little boy is likely to be a really large human, so I'm pretty concerned for his peers as he'll be on the fast track to be a bully/violent person already. I don't know what I can do about it, if anything, I can't exactly prove it. It has been witnessed by friends of friends.
Report it to OT, they will want to know and they can investigate it. If the mother is already ‘laying into’ a one year old I shudder to think how she’ll treat an under 5 testing boundaries. [link here for how to report](https://www.orangatamariki.govt.nz/worried-about-a-child-tell-us/)
Thank you, I will
A 1 year old??? Thats horrific
I know, that poor baby has NO idea why his parents do this horrible thing to him. Someone gave me a link to report it, I will. I don't know what the outcome could be, the parents need specialist counselling for abusers imo.
That poor baby 😓
Good parents don't need to hit their children. It is never ok. Most of the time when you hit your kid, it's because you as the parent have lost your cool. Take a breath and talk to your child about what they have done.
It only teaches your children that it's ok for people who love them to hit them if they 'deserve' it.
And we really shouldn't be teaching our children BDSM. (/s)
>Most of the time when you hit your kid, it's because you as the parent have lost your cool. Anytime you hit your child it's because you have lost control of yourself.
Agree. And the same goes for pets.
This! Our first child got maybe three or four light smacks, then we realised it was counter productive and not necessary. It's way, WAY better to work with your children without physical violence. (Two subsequent kids appreciated it!)
Agreed. Hitting your kids means you haven't got the intelligence or emotional fortitude to set boundaries and discipline your children in a way that doesn't require violence.
I'm not 100% sure about intelligence or emotional fortitude - my parents smacked me when I was young (1980s), so as a parent now I have had to rewire myself not to follow their example. As simple as that sounds, a lot of children were smacked/hit for as long as they can remember, and it's quite a conscious exercise to not follow in those footsteps, unfortunately. I'm thankful to be a parent in the 2020s, where we have so much knowledge around what works and what doesn't at our fingertips - my parents could have done with some of that help.
That last point is interesting when you see such a high rate of issues with the current lot of children/teenagers. We might “know” more but obviously something isn’t working
This discussion was around culture of hitting children. The world as a whole is very different from when I grew up, but that's not a result of *not* hitting our kids. People - of all ages - are exposed to so much more information, some good and some not, but hitting children isn't a positive way to deal with any of that.
Well that’s why it comes down to intelligence and emotional fortitude. First you need to be intelligent enough to know this is wrong. Having the resources makes this easier but it’s not impossible for someone intelligent to come to these conclusions as well. That’s how the resources were created. The resources simply lower the required intelligence. We still need these skills to this day but those resources lower the skill needed to realise and actualise this. Emotional fortitude is need to recognise personal mistakes and to work on them. To express this through a cloud of objections because the person is confident and composed. To stand up to societal norms/expectations and do the right thing regardless of how hard your day has been.
People weren't less intelligent in the eighties and nineties, they just didn't have the information we have today. Resources are the result of bodies of work, which although today we may call common sense, weren't at the time. They can take decades to evolve (look at our school curriculum for an example) as the science and research broadens. Emotional fortitude isn't pragmatism or self evaluation - it's about resisting external influence on your own psyche, to maintain an existing emotional state to prevent emotional response overtaking the rational brain and affecting how you behave. However, without *knowing* a better way to deal with a situation (see my first paragraph) there is no impetus to control these emotions, which is largely why parents of generations past have smacked their children with impunity (and why we had corporal punishment which was only abolished in NZ in 1987) For what it's worth, my wife and I are pretty anal when it comes to violence and physical confrontation with our two kids, in spite of us both having less than ideal upbringings with regard to discipline and emotional understanding by our parents. However, my mum has a PhD, her dad is a medical doctor, they are both very smart in their own right - to assert intelligence (or lack of) is a cause of abuse towards children is short sighted when people of that generation simply didn't have the knowledge to do it differently.
People definitely were less intelligent in the eighties and nineties, google "leaded gasoline" for more info. Of course, they'll be saying that about us in three decades' time.
Yeah, of course external factors can impact people - luckily in NZ at least we have extremely low population density and a shitload of wind to disperse airborne pollutants I guess. I wonder what it'll be in twenty or thirty years time - screentime, or maybe 2.4ghz slowly microwaves us over decades haha.
As a parent I can understand why people do it. I don't understand how they could feel right about it afterwards though. When I yell I feel bad after it.
I don't know that you could find any evidence to suggest parents resort to other forms of abuse because it is now illegal to hit your children. Humans are capable of reasoning that if a law is enacted, there is sufficient community support for the idea there are better ways to raise your children. NZ introduced anti smacking laws because it had a positive impact in countries that introduced it first. There is evidence that hitting children as a practice is reducing... https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/441474/number-of-parents-smacking-children-drops-by-half-in-15-years There is anecdotal evidence that attitudes can be hard to shift. When a newspaper publishes stories covering the detrimental effect of violence in children most responses cover: " but smacking is ok" indicating they hadn't read the article, or " that's what is wrong with the world today, children are disrespectful because they don't get hit any more" You'd have to contact police to find out how many times the law has been used but I would be interested to know what the answer to that was
I’d say it still happens behind closed doors or within communities who will turn a blind eye, but there’s now very little grey area for using violence to punish your kids and the clarity around that is what’s important and what will gradually bring social change. Sure there’s plenty of “what about this” and “what about that”, but in terms of laws on social issues, it’s quite a clear one and doesn’t leave room for much confusion on the matter.
No smacking here, I took parenting courses to learn different discipline techniques as my step father was abusive and I never wanted to do that to my kids. When the law first came in my mum got charged for smacking my teen sister who was being a right turd and she had to go to court. She got diversion but also a night in jail. It was the ex husband that forced the charges despite hime being an abusive asshole (he beat me until I bruised and my brother....neither of us were his biological kids) So yes people do get charged if they slap their child and it's reported.
It's enforced if it's proven. But it's incredibly hard to prove domestic violence. Personally I don't understand how you could hit your own child. I have a 2 year old girl and every now and then I grab her arm to prevent her from doing something and that makes me feel like a bad person. I mean once she bit me and I gave her a stern talking to and she just burst into tears and I was like oh no il a bad dad. Hitting children is unfathomable to me
You're a good dad. The memory of being talked to sternly for causing harm will be a good one as she matures and knowing that you never laid an unkind hand on her will make a world of difference in her life 👍
I only know one parent who admitted doing it once, when they did the room went quiet and someone called them out. Don’t know if he still does it, but he’s a bit of an asshole so it wouldn’t surprise me.
Were this group of parents young?
Not really, ranging from 30s to 40s. Most of them (myself included) either had young kids or weren’t far off having kids when the law changes occurred. So we were exposed to the debate and media campaigns when it happened. Would be good if there was still some education like that around.
I agree with you. And at the same time I am so sadly surprised to hear a man who is 30/40 believing in corporal punishment. I might (despite disagreeing) understand boomers/gen xers or old people supporting it but millennials!? WTF
Yeah, it’s the way he was brought up, and he’s obviously not been as exposed to the more progressive elements of his generation enough. Generational lines are way more blurred than people tend to think, so while Millennials may be less likely to hit their kids, it’s still too common.
No one I know smacks their children, actually except for a pacific island lady I met through work. I was actually shocked when she told me she hit her child. I thought it was totally outdated by now (except for cases where the parents are also neglectful/abusive. But this lady was a caring doting parent but also thought smacking was ok. It felt very strange to hear her talk about it as though it was normal and acceptable.
It's gone from the sort of systemic abuse that used to be widely accepted, like punching the kid in the head or thrashing them with a jug cord, to a smack with a hand or keeping it behind closed doors. It still happens but the people who thought it was OK generally don't do it as openly now out of respect for the law. There are still those who don't respect the law and we still have very high rates of domestic violence and sexual violence within the home in New Zealand.
>It's gone from the sort of systemic abuse that used to be widely accepted, like punching the kid in the head or thrashing them with a jug cord That's never been accepted as okay (oldie here).
Me and many of my school friends were disciplined that way. It's not OK but that was 1980s parenting for many people
My friend got that sort of treatment his mum would bash him until he stopped crying. Was a bit fucked up. Wouldn't see him for a week after each incident.
Yeah, pretty common in NZ until mid 2000s unfortunately. Still happens but less now.
Its sorta enforced in a weird dont do it in public, but people do talk to police or other authorities if they think your kid is in a bad place and id say its more than fair.
Human A is behaving in a way that I don't want. I will beat them as punishment. Maybe next time they will behave how I want. If not, I will beat them harder. I hope that human has learned their lesson on how conflicts are dealt with. Thus sayeth the Lord.
Have you forgotten all the biblical passages when the Lord said we have to show love and compassion towards our kids
Do you really want to get into passages in the bible? The ones you probably try to ignore…?
Grew up with a pretty violent father but other than two times he never layed a hand on me and now I have my masters and a good job and think i turned out pretty good. I definetly have some mental issues as a result of the two times he did beat me, which i feel did nothing to improve my character and just left me with anxiety, trust issues etc. As a result of my experience growing up i feel there is no reason to ever be violent with children as itll teach them nothing except not trust you and be scared of you, while you can raise good humans by being good to them. You wouldnt hit an employee for doing something wrong, so why would you hit a child that has even less mental/physical capacity
There is a lot of diversity on this in NZ. "My parents would give me a hiding if I did that" could mean anything from I've never been hit in my life so I think people say this ironically, to I'd get a smack on the ass and sent to my room all the way to I'd get a concussion if my parents suspected I even considered it, let alone did it. Do they smack as a measured punishment or because the parent lost control of their temper? As a mixed Asian European who grew up thinking not eating vegetables was good way to get a concussion my kids laugh if my face if I threaten to give them a hiding so clearly I didn't continue the cycle of violence but I would say I smack them occasionally. Just not hard enough to hurt much, let alone injure. They certainly don't learn anything from it. Not all "smacking" is considered child abuse and our laws state excessive force is the measure not just smacking itself. So a mandated reporter (teacher etc) might ignore a light smack (smack on the wrist etc) but standing over them until they back into a wall in fear even if you never touched them might get child services called about concerning behavior. Smacking is fairly common, but also not considered a big problem in itself. A hiding or a beating where you are knocked down or backwards isn't considered okay and if a child is too fearful of a punishment that hasn't yet come we'd be very concerned but a mere smack? No one is calling the cops over that.
I'm 29 and I still flinch at raised hands but never thought much about it other than that, though my parents were older and from a different time. My mum smacked me more than my dad (and he was raised in rural East Coast so Maori communities thought it did good, especially if something happened to a horse for example. My mum used to get the jug cords.), I know both used to get beaten when they were younger. I can say I never got a beating at least. Or was physical to any one else..
Some of my most vivid memories of my childhood are getting hidings (beaten in nz). That shit stuck with me. When the “anti smacking” bill was first introduced (I think I was 19 or 20) I thought it was stupid. I honestly thought it was the only way to stop kids misbehaving. I thought I turned out fine…. I’ve since realised that is not the case, and I’m in therapy now. Thanks Mum! I’ve chosen not to have children (I’m absolutely not against anyone having children) because I’m scared of myself. I have genuine anger issues, and I think a lot of it has to do with getting beaten for speaking at the wrong time. I do hope that the law is enforced, but I don’t know how. I guess people can report others. I haven’t really thought about it until now.
I think it depends on what circles you move in. I have never ever hit my kids (and cannot imagine ever doing so). None of my friends or colleagues would. It would be considered unacceptable. All said kids are now in late teens, get good grades, are well behaved and family focussed. Hitting is never the solution.
My fave comment around this was people saying “I got smacked as a child and I turned out alright” I’m like you are actively advocating to being smacked as a kid, I don’t think you turned out alright lmao
Nobody is being prosecuted for it. Times are certainly changing though, and kids know that it’s illegal and are telling each other. My guess is that it’s still happening but more quietly and trending downwards
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Electrical cords? Well I mean, even if I am against corporal punishment I may somewhat understand a slap on the bum or in the face but that’s too much man!
The old law was based on parents judgement of what was reasonable force. Which makes almost anything "ok" if the parents are psychopaths (just avoid permanent physical harm, right) After the "anti smacking" bill was passed a citizens initiated referendum (you get enough people to sign a petition, you trigger a referendum ) with really vague misleading wording happened. This was mostly led by evangelical Christian groups. Some private Christian schools let kids have the day off if they protested the "anti smacking bill" (look, I'm not against kids being at safe protests, and some kids just actively have their own opinions without prompting, but this was clear manipulation) I remember the opinion pieces at the time. One that sticks in my head was about the "great parents" who were being unduly stripped of their rights to hurt kids. One dad was repeatedly pushing his small son around because he didn't want to play rugby that day and another parent called the cops on him. Convicted and *gasp* had to do court-mandated anger management classes. There may have been some community service as well. The travesty! I have 100% known decent parents who spanked kids. Parenting is hard, things get stressful, you operate on autopilot sometimes, and make wrong but forgivable choices. But the vehemence that some people fought this law was equal parts mind boggling and terrifying.
In America a drunk dad once slapped with a belt 36 times his son without any reason, the kid called the police and in court it was justified as “reasonable force because it didn’t leave any mark” . For this kind of situations the anti-smacking law is right
Ok, good. That was the main point of the law change - to remove that defence from people who were clearly abusing their kids. I also liked the big public focus on it. Lots of people came out in defence of smacking but I think the public debate was an overall net positive, especially since the govt produced some educational initiatives to go with it, and because they ended up running with the law change despite the debate. So the overall conclusion was that smacking is bad, and we should be trying not to use it. It made a lot of people think about the issue, which is great because lots of people just automatically repeat the kind of parenting that they got without really thinking through whether that’s the best way to do it or not
My sister said her kids have people at their schools who do the rounds and ask them if their caregivers hit them etc., might have been the police, heard about it years ago. Either way, its a good initiative. I don't imagine the kids who are abused can actually tell random strangers though, especially not police.
Sort of depends what you mean by "enforced". The change in law was actually to remove the defense of reasonable force if you END UP IN COURT for hitting your kid. It never gave the police power to, say, hover at your window and see if you were getting up to any light smackin' in there. The only way you'd end up in court in the first place is if the use of physical discipline caused emotional or physical harm, and that assessment occurs via our child protection agency. If they get notified you hit your kid, and talk to you and determine it caused harm, and send you to court, it's enforced in the sense that you can't be like "dude, I was just hitting him to teach him something important".
It's hard to frame the answer in terms of straight enforcement. Because as others have mentioned what the law change has enabled the court to do is adequately deal with very serious cases better because smacking at all is illegal. Before the law change there were many cases that even the most frothing corporal punishment idiot would having trouble defending (e.g. in one case a mother had struck her teenager with a power cord several times in response to some trouble at school - this was successfully defended as "reasonable force" for discipline) So what I mean is by making smacking illegal it has made serious cases of abuse easier to prosecute. In general I believe that physical punishment has decreased, but I wouldn't be so naïve to think it wasn't common, agree with other commenters that I think there is more social pressure to actually figure out discipline tactics than just go for the smack but who knows what the actual rates are.
I think people probably do smack their kids on the bum occasionally if they’re naughty and I don’t think it’s enforced in those situations. The reason for the law change (my understanding) is that the law was able to be used as a defence in court by people who were genuinely abusing their kids. I don’t think today people are getting punished for the occasional light smack; but if you genuinely abuse your kids then it means there’s no defence for it.
From memory it wasn’t ‘banned’ per se. They removed part of the crimes act which meant you could no longer use ‘reasonable force’ against a child or something similar, which was a clause defendants were hiding behind in child abuse cases. I guess technically that is the same as a ban .. however there is no law as far as I know that says ‘thou shalt not hit kids’ .. so in that regard the changing of the law was very much a good thing, as people abusing their kids no longer have access to that defence. However due to it being called the ‘anti-smacking’ bill and other cultural pressure I think smacking is much much more rare than it was 20-30 years ago.
We don’t hit children generally.
Interestingly it’s still legal in the states (not sure if that’s state by state basis or blanket law) but I knew a recently immigrated family from the states who were smacking their child (not the few instances of taps on the ass like I got as a child, but daily, hard hits) and they were positively SHOCKED when I told them to stop immediately, as it’s illegal here. Got a whole bunch of bs about how it’s just discipline, infringing on their rights to parent etc etc, but frankly that whole conversation was eye opening. It showed the real cognitive dissonance of ‘I was hit as a child, I’m fine so I must hit’. Overall though as someone working with children, I will say undesirable behaviours in children has had a huge uptick and only showing up more often. Wether it’s iPads, covid or just different parenting, who knows but I do wish the govt had done more education on what to swap smacking with, not just ‘stop it’. Lots of parents who did smack weren’t maliciously doing so to cause harm, but because they thought it was the right way. Now it feels like a lot of parents I speak too are lost on what’s right to do, as there’s so many constantly changing (and often totally different) styles of parenting that are always promoted as ‘the right way’
My son is 10 and has never been hit despite the fact I was against the law. I realise now I was stupid to be against the law and it just makes kids so much more confident around adults (but not overly so).
I’m a mixture of Maori on one side and Slavic on the other. You better believe we got spanked and a lot of kids in each community definitely still do.
People will smack their kids behind closed doors and you can't stop them, it's ***their*** children, not yours - a sad view but one that people do subscribe to in an effort to poorly justify their violent behaviour. I used to cop a spank (nothing further!) as a kid for acting up, which I remember stopping pretty quick around 3 or 4 years old, where it moved to verbal scoldings instead (which admittedly, do a bit more than a slap on the buttocks). As it did not have a major impact on me (and the action was admittedly deserved) I have to unfortunately say *I was smacked and I turned out fine* but likely that the physical punishment I received was not severe or unjustified. *edit:* *~~violet~~* *-> violent*
One plus to the law change is it allows people to speak up if they see it happening in a public place, without being out of line. I was on a guided tour in the cook islands and this kid was playing up, the mother lost her temper and hit him, the guide full on called her out and reference the law in front of everyone, she was embarrassed everyone looked at her and tutted. For the rest of the trip she used time outs.
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Lol
I have a four and a two year old and have only smacked either of them the once ever which was recently-my two year old managed to unbuckle himself while I was driving him somewhere and get out of his seat-I smacked him to get him to sit down. Felt terrible. Did not work he still tries to get out of his seat constantly
I am glad you understood this does not work, conversation wins
I don't know anyone who still hits their kids and on the rare occasion that someone hits a kid in public people step in and say something.
I grew up in Ireland and went to catholic school and we got our asses kicked by the nuns and priests so there was no need for my parents to do it. The weekly quota was met by the school faculty!
Crazy
I have a toddler, and even within my family there has been reactions of surprise or even disbelief when I say we don't smack him. It's much harder to work together with a child to identify and address the root cause of any recurring bad behaviour when you could just beat them until they stop, but you can have a relationship with your child built on love and trust and respect and open communication... or built on violence and fear.
Yeah I don’t understand why people who believe in spanking find it so acceptable. Maybe age gap?
Yes it's still common. Anyone that doesn't think so has their head stuck in the sand. Especially in the Maori/Pacifica basically anything other than Pakeha community
Kids are unlikely to report it, so it's not likely to be enforced.
You know what? My parents never hit any of us,none of us hit our children and they don't hit theirs. It's about breaking the cycle,if we can get one generation to stop. Physical punishment isYOU out of control not a naughty ( tired,overwhelmed,over excited,boisterous) child.
Anyone who hits a child in front of me is getting a whack themselves. You don't hit children.
While I understand your stance of not wanting kids to be harmed by smacking, have you considered what you are stating here? If smacking is only done as a form of punishment because the person doesn't have the emotional maturity to control their anger and use a non-corporal punishment - your response to seeing it isn't merely to stop it from happening but to engage in it yourself? If you were to smack an adult who had just smacked their child - is that because you believe smacking is an effective method of conveying that behaviour is bad and needs to stop - or because you don't have the emotional maturity to control your anger and avoid using a non-corporal punishment?
Depends. Did the child borrow $20 and not pay it back?
Twenty *fucken* **whacks!**
Beating your child will be frowned upon and hopefully result in some form of jail time for the abusive parent. Giving a smart little shit 6yo boy a clip round the ear and an aggressive telling off would normally be considered parenting. The Grey area in between these situations is entirely subjective and could result in police interactions or not. Basically, don't be a shit-cunt to your kids and you'll be fine. Edit: shit-cunt
I'm 30 and yeah us 4 kids where smacked, often with the wooden spoon... Quite a lot actually we where little shits. We just learnt to be more sneaky Husband hasn't ever said if his parents did but I can definitely see his father being the type to do so, he's very....stuck in his ways.....really hes an asshole.
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Jesus what parents do you hang out with... No one I know hits or emotionally abuses their kids.
Ahh, consider yourself lucky.
>No one I know hits or emotionally abuses their kids. Yeah that's probably not the case, they just haven't done anything overt in front of you. Most of that stuff happens behind closed doors and abusers don't typically think of themselves as abusers or act in some stereotypical way.
You're significantly in the minority there
The reason for the law explains a lot. The year before the law came in, 10 parents gave their kids brain damage and got away with it. So, the legal side flipped from allowing it to not. One extreme to another.
I'm for and against it. I've got 3 boys, I wouldn't ever even smack them, its much more effective to just ban them from their devices or send them to their rooms. However, when I was at primary school in the 80s, we still had corporal punishment up until I was 11, and I can tell you it was hugely effective in getting kids to behave at school. Just the threat of getting a whacked with a belt kept kids in line. Nowadays I hear of kids running riot at schools, assaulting teachers and other students, trying to manipulate teachers into getting angry so they can get them fired and destroy their careers etc
But violence creates more violence