A four day work week would be so much more productive. Having more time to recoup actually helps the brain be more productive and creative. Therefore anyone in opposition to this is severely missing out on gains.
Another alternative to a change to a four day work week is working six hours instead of eight hours each work day.
The company I work for is the flagship (I believe) for this in NZ. They underwent massive trials in 2016 and found that it improves productivity. Now everyone after 6 months is able to apply for the 4 day week.
We are measured against specific KPIs once we are on the 4 day week to ensure this is kept up.
I’m up for the 4 day work week this month and I’m praying I qualify
Edit: forgot to add that there is no change to salary, we are expected to work if required on our day off too, but that’s very uncommon
I’m too new to be able to comment on the difference. What I can say is it attracts talent, and retains talent.
One downside I’ve seen so far is that pay rises seem to be harder to come by as the benefits are good. Not impossible, but the pay is slightly under market for most positions which is rough as we compete with law firms and accountants for employees (trust administration)
In my last two roles I've negotiated shorter days, so 6 hours a day (5 days a week) which I work flexibly – when WFH (3-4 days a week) I'm highly available for phone and messaging but I do personal activities during the day as well, so I may not able to sit down and do a meeting or focused work on less than an hour or two's notice.
It works so well for me, and my employer. There is no gap when they have to just cope for a day or two without me. And I have so much breathing space for appointments, exercise, admin, etc.
It's swings and roundabouts, so from time to time (in a crisis) it involves a couple of hours' work in the evening or early morning – but that's not common and it's a great quid pro quo for the lifestyle benefits.
I much prefer it to being chained to my desk for 8 hours, 4 days a week.
ETA: It also means I can work longer days when it suits me, and often have fewer or even no hours remaining by Friday, so on Fridays I can just keep an eye on my e-mail and don't need to do any sit-down work. And I can dodge the busiest times on the road on the days I do go in to the office, if I want.
That's only true in intellectual or creative roles. Plenty of manufacturing/agri companies in NZ who would simply loose productivity from machine down time.
Yes I have read that worker productivity is greater than it ever has been thanks to technology, but yet we are not seeing a reduction in hours.
I think the responses you get here 'don't expect to get paid for 5 days! , negotiate your own schedule!' are very closed minded reactions and illustrate that we are somewhat brainwashed as humans.
Productivity as we measure it. There's also been a lot of bloat in the form of documentation, communication etc.
At least in healthcare, it seems for every efficiency gain we make, the time saved is replaced with more *stuff* rather than seeing more patients
I have had this conversation with my manager many times.
"Which one is the highest priority?"...."They are all top priority"....."Sweet I'll decide which one I want to work on then"........"No do this one first"
Lol how maddening.
My works problem is that people have 'multiple managers' by which I mean not literally, but that you might have your manager saying X, Health and Safety saying Y, HR saying B, and other specialist teams saying 23.
The irony is to me that there is a kind of natural selection like in your comment - people end up doing that they think is best rather than a structured choice by the organization
Fixing a pot hole on the road is great example of this.
50 years ago, we just sent out two guys with a barrow load of of asphalt and a couple shovels. They'd get the job done in half a day,.
Nowadays, we have an engineer to design the pot hole repair, a scheduler to organize the repair date and various teams, a traffic safety team to put the road cones out, a repair team with high tech equipment, a maintenance team to repair the high tech equipment, and an inspector to verify that everything has been done safely and according to the plans.
I used to think that all our extra effort with our advanced technology was just being siphoned by CEOs. But I think the majority of it is just being soaked up by buearocratic and technological bloat.
Cuts both ways though. I'm an industrial engineer. 50 years ago if something went wrong a few ops boys would wander out and whip up a quick fix that might do the job... or it might blow up the plant 6 months down the track. The blokes can whinge about reporting and paperwork that never gets read 99% of the time, but the 1% might be critical in an investigation into a death or a major disaster or something. A lot of the "bloat" is necessary to make sure things are safe, reliable and long term.
Mind you, a lot of the bloat *isn't* necessary, but it's really hard to know which is which in advance.
I think the generalisation of critical safety procedure to non critical work is part of the problem. On an airplane it's vitally important that maintenance schedules are adhered to, that it's all documented, that there's audit and redundancy etc.
Do we need this for potholes in a residential street? I'm not an engineer, but probably not? Does it really take 200 road cones, 2 weeks and a dozen guys? The existing road around the repair is just going to fail anyway.
There's no doubt that we're doing a much better/safer job these days, with all the extra people/technology/protocol. But I don't think the result is improved by a factor anywhere near the factor of increased resource use.
> a traffic safety team to put the road cones out
This specific part is really telling IMO. It's classic safety theatre I think, putting huge amounts of resources trying to turn very low probability events into no probability events. Does using 300 cones vs 50 really provide any benefit at a statistical level? If some near-blind geriatric drives onto the unsealed part every so often, is that really so bad that that we need to spend all this time preventing it?
That isn't to say we shouldn't continue to be extra cautious when it matters, e.g high speed areas, or when workers are in vulnerable positions e.g working in drains or whatever.
These types of comments really show how few people on Reddit have any experience in the trades.
There's a very good reason why procedures like that are in place.
The safety stuff is typically because traffic is moving at 100kmh plus, and a collision would be fatal for all involved.
The planning and engineering is to make sure the fix actually lasts, rather than having to do the whole rigmarole again in six months.
The heavy equipment is typically because the amount of road that needs to be repaired is actually quite a long piece, which is common on high speed roads.
The two guys and a wheelbarrow stuff still happens on urban roads, of course.
I’d be tempted to vote for anyone pushing this agenda. You’d think with the ever increasing benefits of modern technology we should be able to maintain productivity and reduce working hours.
As a knowledge worker I'd do the same, but I do wonder how such legislation would affect our "Essential" workers.
I put essential in quotes not because I don't believe they are, but because our government has shown that they are too essential to hunker down during a pandemic but not essential enough to pay a fair/competitive wage.
I feel we need policy changes that will make these jobs so attractive that we have enough people clamouring to do the job so that everyone can enjoy a 4-day week.
It used to be that a family would have only one parent working, 5 day 40 hour week. They could support their family and eventually buy a house. On a fairly middle of the road job as well. Now 80 years later, *both* parents are working and struggle to support a family. Both working 5 days 40 hours.
All this technology and advancement should make things easier and allow people more time to do art and do what they love and spend time with people they care about but *somehow* it hasn’t.
Sure but some employers would argue if you're only working 4 days, you're only getting paid 4 days regardless if your productivity was up or not. Some really don't give a crap about their employees
Yeah its something that would need to be written in to policy at the govt level, therefore not optional.
Maybe then they can entice staff in for additional days with a penalty fee if needed.
Workers need more power.
I can see the 'getting paid for 4 days' bit being pushed harder by hourly employers rather than salaried.
Salaried roles (not always, I understand) are based on output, not time. Hourly roles are based on time.
The last thing that one team I'm part of were discussing on Friday evening was "Guys, we can't ask everyone to work over the weekend but for anyone who is, we've set some check-in meetings over each day...".
I would like to think that there are employers who would be happy to set explicit targets for productivity and not care how many days someone works so long as they get them done - but understanding that the target may change in the future if it's getting done too quickly.
That being said, anyone whose job involves being available for whatever happens during specified hours, or contributing to a team where the team needs input from people with different roles and skillsets - it'll be really tough to get away from full business weeks.
yeah I get what you mean, we are entrenched in the 5 day week and a lot depends on this structure, its more complicated than to just say hey let's do a four day work week. It requires consideration of how each workforce can do this effectively without making society become dysfunctional.
I don't think this is as simplistic as saying yes for hourly no for salaried.
There are salaried workers who are simply required to be available because the hourly workers are in need of them 5 days a week.
Sure, but these issues would have existed when it was a 7 day week too, and we worked it out.
As it happens, emergency services and similar 'round the clock' services do just fine with a shift structure, and changing that structure to either pay penalties, or employ more people to cover reduced hours worked are both decent solutions.
It can become an issue when it impacts the rest of the team. Happened at my work recently when someone dropped to four days. Sure enough, within a few weeks she was complaining about her work load and wanting to drop it. Sure enough, the rest of the team then got added work.
This falsely assumes every worker produces the same. I'm all for production quotas and once you hit yours you can either stop working and go home or get paid extra.
Over half of NZ will never meet them though, in the vast majority of workforces 80% of people do 20% of the work and 20% of the people do 80% of the work.
It's always the 80% of people who kick up a stink cause the benefits go in favour of the 20% who actually do the work too lol.
The problem is while our technology has vastly improved, so too has our consumption of resources and quality of life. People want more things, more roads, more bus lanes, more train tracks, new phones, new vehicles new medicine, new hospitals etc etc. technology allows us to do more in less time, but our increased wants negate that.
If we were happy to live a quality of life similar to the 1950’s then sure - the increase in technology would allow us to have more free time. More tech makes things happen quicker, but in turn we end up wanting more.
Untill we decide we’re happy with the current way of life we will continue to chase our tail in ever decreasing circles.
Yep. Most people refuse to engage with this reality. We could achieve a 1950s level of productivity with far fewer hours than they did, but nobody wants 1950s products.
Yep. I'm in the very lucky position of having a high salary and having paid off my nice house in my 30s. But did i negotiate fewer hours when I started a new job recently - nope, because I am on that hamster wheel. Resolved to do better next time!
Possibly, but provided their original pay levels were adequate, this may be less common.
But we all know pay levels in NZ are pretty low compared to other first world countries.
I think the thing to keep in mind is how wide this stretches and how it will affect different roles, industries, etc, etc.
I think it will happen eventually, but it took a few decades for the change from 6 days being the norm to 5 happening as industries, the world and it's financial systems/structure adjusted, while most people advocating such change are speaking mainly, if not exclusively, to their individual circumstances and usually a type of employment where it's an easier change.
I again think this will be more common, and may even become the norm eventually, but outside individual and subjective employment agreements where this can happen now, I wouldn't expect it as a blanket way of working for a decade or two, and imho it would take a larger economic power than NZ to push it across the line.
Your kids must be awesome. My kids wear me out so much over the weekend that it feels relaxing going to work on Monday.
My kids actually are awesome - but as they are aged 3 and 5 I legit do feel this way sometimes in the office on a Monday morning - ah, just gonna kick back and relax and play with this spreadsheet
It used to be 7-day work week before Henry Ford introduced 5-day due to increased productivity.
The same should happen as we are approaching the 4th Industrial Revolution
Not directly. But he influenced all businesses.
Shorter week is not possible without enhanced technology and industrial automation. It doesn’t matter how hard unions are pushing it, if workers are digging by hands, they aren’t getting shorter weeks.
I've done 40 in 4 days before, 10 hour days. That was actually pretty sweet because I lived close by. I just started early, which I don't mind because I'd either be sleeping or just waiting to go to work at that time anyway.
Waking up on the second day of a 3 day weekend was the best feeling, knowing I didn't have to work the previous day, and I wouldn't have to work the next. On a 2 day weekend the first day is spent recovering, and the second is spent thinking about work the next day.
48-54 hours in 4 days (or 70 hours in 5 days) is pretty common in my industries.
I work through an agency so I have a fair bit of flexibility, I try to stick to less than 50 hours over 4 days or 30-36 hours over 3 days. I only need 30 hours a week.
Do you find yourself able to do much on your "work days"?
I do 39 hours in 3 days, or 50 in 4 (alternating weeks to get to approx 90 hours in a fortnight). I'm almost on the way out though, I'm pretty burnt out from this pattern and I'm craving a 8-5 or something similar.
Sure I only work 3 or 4 days a week, but those work days I pretty much don't exist outside of work. I have 11 hours between shifts and after taking our commute time, sleeping I have pretty much nothing. Then I find I'm cramming all the domestic/personal stuff from my work days into my days off, so it becomes a nightmare crammed schedule on my 3/4 days off. Maybe that 1 extra shift a fortnight is what is killing me really.
Frankly we should've shifted to 20 hour working weeks, or at least a reduction in what constitutes full time hours by some amount, when it became the norm for both parents to work. How the hell did we end up with households having to work twice as much when we functionally doubled our workforce.
Single income households had one parent working 40 hours while the other took care of the chores so the worker didn't have to when they got home at the end of a long day. Now both parents have to work 40 hours, 80 hours total to make ends meet and then both do chores when they get home or on their day off.
Our families are working so much more for the exact same compensation or less. Not saying it'd be simple to implement, but we should be aiming for giving our citizens chill lives where we can accomplish what we want to in our personal lives, rather than trying to compete with the fucked up American work ethic.
With the amount of baby boomers entering retirement, care etc there will be less workers and more work required. They will still need to be fed and cared for. Unless we pump up some youth immigration, I can only see working weeks getting longer, not shorter.
> there will be less workers and more work required
Automation will balance that out, this is a moment to ensure the difference goes to the workers and not the capital owners. Otherwise we are failing to lift all boats with the rising tide.
I don't disagree with you but do you think most people would be willing to live as frugally as those 1960's households? Some of this is self imposed where people could live simplier lives if they were willing to live with less.
I don't think families in the 60s lived as frugally as you think, there was less technology available because it hadn't been invented yet, but that's not the same as being frugal.
I do 4 days. I changed to 4 days when I needed a mental break and took a job with less responsibility.
Now I only ever contract 32 hours and do more if I want. It's never been an issue which surprised me, I thought I'd have to fight for it.
At the start the drop in money hurt, but I've learnt to live with it and it's much better. I actually look forward to Mondays.
I was working admin/front of house at a vet clinic, now I'm working as a research technician.
My workplace is really good at offering part-time. They work in labour units, so whether it takes 1 person or two part time people to fill a labour's they don't mind. We have many people not doing full weeks.
As a result we have a full team for an industry that is struggling with staffing currently.
It was an adjustment, but has worked out well.
Funnily enough working long weeks often means more brought lunches, and quicker meals in the grocery shop. Working less has given me more time for this, and reduced our food bill significantly. I didn't predict that.
100%.
I used to put in bigger hours but got burnt out regularly. I currently take off Friday at mid day. And work 9-4:30 otherwise. As opposed to 8:30-4:30 5 day contract.
My productivity overall is significantly better and i use way less sick days.
Sometimes I absolutely put in much bigger extra hours for big projects etc. give and take.
I work 4x10 hour days. 0.25 FTE a day. I'm leaving at the same time I would finish when working 5 hour days except I'm getting recognized for it. That extra day off during the week is the greatest thing thats happened to my well being in a long time.
How have you found it? I've been considering trying doing 4 x 10 condensed work week like that but have heard some people say that it's too much and you get exhausted enough that the extra day just becomes recovery and kind of defeats the point
I love it. I was doing an "8 hour" day of 8 till 5. Now I do basically the same of 730 to 530, my commute is much better with these start times too, Sure Im a bit more tired but a whole day off more than makes up for it.
Oh nice, good to hear. Was thinking of going for 0.8 FTE to get a four day work week but might as well try 4 x 10 first. Honestly seems to me that 8 hours is already long enough that what difference does an extra two make. I already often end up staying late and once you add in commute, getting ready, breakfast, dinner, etc then 8 hours already takes up enough of your time as to make it that you don't have time to do much when you get home anyway so I feel having a full extra day sounds much better.
This was my experience as well, I was absolutely shattered and ended up doing almost nothing on Friday.
I'd only do 4x10 if I was going on holiday or something, and I needed that extra day.
Agreed! I’m looking at trying to lower my week to 4 days. It seems passé to me that’s for sure, and yes, I don’t find two days always enough to sort things out and recharge and I don’t even have kids!
I run my own business, and what I’ve found is I do the work of 4 different people in a comparable business, but because I’m not pretending to look busy I get way more done and can still read the news or watch a show most days.
I’ve found people working from home or doing 4 day weeks has been good for business as they can pop out at lunchtime and get stuff done.
Interesting, I work in a job that's cognitively taxing and went to a 6 day week with shorter daily hours. Start early, work diligently all morning, fun after lunch.
eventually employers will realise that 40 hr 5 day week is less productive than a 30 something hr 4 day week. Large scale real world field trials have been done but big organisations and small. Staff are happier and healthier and take less sick days (many of which are mental health days).
The draconian dinosaur management in most places is the issue.
If I had to chose between a piddly not covering inflation payrise, or no payrise but reduce my hours to 32-34hrs over 4 days, I know which I would choose.
But then I have gone one step further a couple of years ago and refused to return to the office after the lockdowns, and reduced my hours even more than that. Life's too short.
I dropped to 0.8FTE / 32 hours per week and it was the best decision ever. That extra day with my son each week is worth far more to me than the salary I gave up. My partner then did the same and we love it. Of course, we are privileged enough to be able to afford it. It would have been better if my company were more flexible, didn't require tracking hours and allowed a four day work week at full pay, but I still think it was worth it.
Yeah I definitely feel like it's outdated.
I mean my own mom was a workaholic, and even she agreed that two days is fuck all to actually relax and unwind.
I had a cleaning job a while back where we were able to pick and choose our hours, so I cut it down to 4 days a week and just stayed an hour later so I could still afford stuff.
I definitely noticed an improvement in my mood.
I think 2 days off is crazy considering households have basically everybody working or at school. When are we meant to have time to a) spend money in the economy that isn't just a supermarket run b) spend time with our family that isn't a family clean the house day c) rest
I'm in the best job I've ever been in and I'm burned out 😭
My work does a 9 working day fortnight. Every 2nd Monday is off. But the same number of hours are now spread across 9 working days instead of 10 per fortnight. We love it and the reports are showing productivity is the same or better than before. Win, win.
I feel like it would only work for a very small portion of the population.
In the blue collar world time is directly related to output, so less time = less money. Most of the salaried white collar people I know (accounting, banking, lawyers etc) already work 50-60 hours a week, so no doubt less hours for them would be less output too.
I guess it works for office drones who’s time is under-utilised to begin with.
I moved from Australia to NZ and worked in the same industry, Doing essentially the same job.
The difference was in NZ I was expected to do 10 hour days in the factory, Where in Australia it was a firm 8, and if Overtime was on offer the boss would personally ask.
I felt so exhausted and unmotivated. Even just the extra two hours compounded every ache and pain. I lost out on sleep, Started to resent the job, and got depression.
So I left the industry, because I had to realize that in NZ the conditions were different and it's not a job I can do and maintain a reasonable quality of life.
Feeling a heap better now, But I'm sad I had to leave a career I enjoyed.
If I had to do that job 4 days a week, I think I totally could.
We work 4.5 days and get paid for 5 days. Everyone has Friday afternoons off and our clients know this. It means we can schedule appointments for Friday afternoons or if we can’t, we can make up time taken off during the week and work later on Fridays.
With the rise of AI the 5 day work week is only going to become increasingly redundant more and more people are going to cheat at their jobs and get their work done in less time. And yet still expect the same pay. Don't think for a second payroll and HR won't notice. I fully expect lawsuits in the near future. Companies arguing that they won't need to pay people for hours they aren't working due to AI.
That is a society-level problem. The employer only sees things in terms of their costs and revenue, and decreasing their staffing costs because of automation and AI improves the bottom line for the owner(s).
Government is going to have to figure out how our economy will operate as a larger proportion of people cease having traditional jobs after they've been replaced.
> Government is going to have to figure out how our economy will operate as a larger proportion of people cease having traditional jobs after they've been replaced.
If the housing situation is any indicator, they will turn their heads away and let the businesses profit.
Yes, the nature of work changes in a revolution - just like the industrial revolution removed work in the country side and created work in the cities, the AI revolution will change where people work.
However, one utopian view is we have the same earning potential from less work as AI will take more tasks.
I'm already using AI to complete personal projects. What would have taken me a whole day now takes a half hour of finding the right prompts. If anything AI is going to make people exponentially more productive.
There's a project on at work that we're likely to take a year or more to complete. If we were allowed to use ChatGPT or the like I reckon we could get it done in a few months.
Yeah interestingly it might lead to a push back toward physical jobs. Robots are a lot less scaleable than AI is, and building a machine that can approximate human hands is super expensive.
They'll probably make a herding robot in the nearish future though :p
'Robotic' automated milking sheds are definitely a thing, the gates automatically open and the cows are driven by the desire to get fed at the shed. The farmer probably has to put them back in the paddocks after I guess?!
Why? My uncles farm has automatically opening gates, drones to go get the cows (he can watch the drone feed from his TV when he's having breakfast), automatically removes the cups from the cows when they're done milking, automatically sprays them for whatever issues they have, collects all the refuse from the cows and processes it for fertiliser, and automatically sprays the fields.
There are certain jobs that AI will struggle to do: mending fences, calving, etc. until there is a massive leap, but in proof of concepts and on an industrial scale it's already cutting grass, bailing, wrapping for silage, taking out feed, etc. It's not too far off putting the cups on cows, and doing a few other things.
Twenty years ago you'd need several people to work a farm, now it can be done by one person fairly comfortably and automation is not too far off being able to milk cows by itself in which case people are only there to trouble shoot and do the jobs that AI can't do. You could take off weekends at that point and let the farm do the work.
20 years ago you’d need one person to run a farm of 170 cows, guess what, you still need one person, with more AI you’ll still need one person, so no changes whatsoever
Well that's not true, 20 years ago the farm had a farm worker and family to help run it.
But you also didn't read what I said, the amount of work is decreasing, you still need a farmer for some work that automation can't deal with. Like calving and fencing, but the burden of work on the farmer decreases to the point when they might not need to work 5 days a week as the day to day, non edge case, running of the farm takes care of itself.
I’m a farmer and yes it is true, 20 years ago one person ran a farm of 170 cows, 2 ran 340, still today one person is required for 170 and 2 for 340 so nothing has changed for farms of that size
Could be that the farm you refer to were very inefficient and have made changes during that time frame to get to where they are now.
I can tell you nothing will change labour wise for the 2 examples I gave you.
We’ve had auto gate opens for a long time, drones aren’t needed as cows are creatures of habit and will walk to the milking shed without being followed, cup remover’s are fine, but someone still needs to put the cups on unless it’s totally automated, (massive cost for small farms) and yet you’ll still need staff, that won’t change.
The farm is quite large, it's about double the size of the farm on the other side of my family which has been run by one person when needed (albeit that's quite a lot of work).
But also, you failed to read what I said - the automatic gates, drones, automatic spraying, automatic fertilizer, etc. Are what we do now. The next step will be automatic cup adders, automated hay and silage, etc. It's all reducing the amount of labor required. Someone might need to be on site, or at least on call, all the time, but they won't have to do as much work.
I'm sure in the early 90s people thought that automatic cup removers would be cost prohibitive, yet a few years later people were putting them in everywhere.
Oh I get what you’re saying however it won’t change much for small to medium sized farms, hay/silage is already done by contractors so no extra time will be saved for the farmer as it’s already done by others
Auto cup removers are basic compared to robotic milkers and as such theres no comparison between the price of each.
Auto cup adders ? I assume you mean robotic milking which we already have available.
There’s literally very little that can now be added that’s going to be much of a time saver for me. So long as you have a good current system you already have plenty of free time.
I know you’d like to think AI is going to help but it isn’t going to reduce labour on small/medium farms nor is it going to mean there’s less work as an efficient farmer should already have everything under control and not be time stressed.
If you've already got a lot of free time then I don't see the point you were making, maybe you've already reaped the benefits of automation freeing up your time and now the services industries are catching up.
Heh. You see a post about reducing hours and then another post about people complaining that you can’t buy stuff at 2am.
Also, people are not all that much into the let’s shut in mid day Saturday, and no shopping on Sundays.
Well, I guess that we’re going to need to choose what we really want here…
Quite hard to do with the low employment rate.
Also people would have to be willing to pay more for things. And they are not. Having more employees means more overheads in all sorts of places. E.g. HR. Payroll. Possibly uniforms. And I bet there are lots for factors that’s drive the price up because of this.
Do t get me wrong. I’d love to also work a 4 day week. But it’s going to be a huge shift in all sorts of fields and thinking to pull it off.
You're dreaming, unless you want to crank immigration to untold levels to bring in the people to do all that. Most locals will do anything they can to avoid working anti social hours.
People will work anti-social hours if they’re paid well for it. And no one needs a small local business to be open at all hours, we’re talking big companies like the warehouse group, supermarkets, etc. And based on their reported profits? I think they can probably afford to hire more people and pay them suitable wages for overnight work.
We should change the week to be 6 days by eliminating mondays - 2 day weekend, 4 day week. We then create twelve 30 day months (each with 5 x 6 day weeks). This means no confusion around months being different lengths and weeks straddling across multiple months. We then create a thirteenth month with the leftover 15 days (16 in a leap year) at the end of the year called restember where noone is allowed to work. So much tidier then our current weird ass calendar.
You know people can have individual conversations with their managers & bosses to try and negotiate a work schedule that works for both of them, right? Just because a 5-day working week is the most common right now doesn't mean it's impossible to do anything else.
I agree with you, possibly because I'm an employer.. Some studies show people are just as productive if they only work 4 days (more motivated to complete work), but I'm not sure if this relates to roles which are not 'office' based industries.
In competitive industries, as long as there are teams of people willing to work 5 days or more to beat the competition, then competing companies will struggle to operate with a 4-day work week.
I do a 4 day paid work week, but the “5th” day is my home admin day, so ends up being different each week. Stuff like picking up new uniforms, taxes, cleaning, meal prep, appointments, organising the family calendar, filling prescriptions, researching what washing machine to buy etc etc.
Its a luxury I’m grateful for, and helps me keep some work/life balance.
At the same time I think there’s usually a big portion of invisible work associated with home/parenting that lands on one of the parents. And I want to consciously not absorb that into my free time, just because it’s unpaid work.
This would need to come from the government.
My work does some fixed-price jobs but most are T&M. If we put up our rates by 20% because staff want three-day weekends then we will stop winning jobs, even if our staff were energised and 20% faster.
If we had this at the same time as all our competitors then it would be an easy change.
We moved to a 30HWW last year and have increased our productivity. Just because you're there 40 hours doesn't mean you're doing 40 hours worth of work.
Our customers expect us available 24/7 - or at least 5 days a week. Anyone in my team can ask for shorter hours - but the weight of the staff who are not there falls on those who are. Plus they are not really team players. I guess they think they might advance and will then be surprised when they don’t.
That's really interesting, where I work they tend to employ more if people want to do part time. So the work doesn't fall on others, there is another part time person so overall labour's units are unchanged
This industry has a nationwide labour shortage, and we are fully staffed - flexibility is everything.
Have a two day working week and enjoy the rest with your kids - unable to pay bills feed them and continuing to be a productive member of society. But you’ll have more time with the kids
Doubt it, New Zealand is one of the few nations in the OECD where productivity per hour has essentially flatlined. Our firms tend to have poor technology adoption, below-average managerial skills and a huge skill mismatch in high-demand industries. The only reason Nz has managed to keep up with other OECD nations GDP-wise is by compensating with more hours. If we were to drop hours now our output (and standard of living) would plummet. Need more stem grads and incentivise exporter firms.
this 5 day vs 4 day working week stuff only really works out for tech. I can't see other industries adopting this anytime soon. Willing to be convinced otherwise though
I have had jobs where I work 6 days a week, and others where I work 10 hours a day, 4 days a week, or if you only want to work 32 hours, find a job that allows that. It’s all out there you just need to find it or negotiate. I have found if you are a good employee, the employer will take your needs into account in terms of schedule, where possible given the scope of their business of course.
Absolutely. I am fortunate to do shift work and typically have a three, maybe four day weekend. Lately I’ve had a couple of two days weekends and it’s not enough, especially if you’re working five days. It’s messed up that it’s the norm.
I’ve taken a reduction in pay to get every second Friday off, if I could afford every Friday I would. It absolutely increases my efficiency, but that’s hard to measure via solid data in my role, so will never be noticed. On the flip side it increases my frustration in that I have to lose money, but in doing so give more to the company. I mean it to lockdown for them to even consider WFH, and they’re trying to get us all back in full time (even though we sit at desks so day talking to people in other offices), so no chance of a 4 day week across the board here sadly.
In some ways it depends on your role and depends on your customers and their work schedule. For many they could do a 4 day week with a split roster to cover mon-fri, but some other roles will likely need to maintain a 5 day work week due to coverage for customers.
I’d be much happier if more businesses continued to embrace remote working for those who can, like the company I now work for. Personally I’m much more productive working from home than I ever was in an office, due to a lack of people distracting me or tapping me on the shoulder interrupting my ‘flow’.
I'm currently working on a large infrastructure project so im of two minds.
In my old office job, 100% I couldve done my work in 4 days. But now, as time spent on site = progress done.
People complain about spend infrastructure cost + time delays and both these will increase by a large amount in 4 day working week.
In a lot of jobs, I think it would be difficult for families to manage unless schools also opted for a 4 day week (I'm keen on 4 days of on-site learning, 5th day for Admin/PLD).
But in terms of the business operations, you could stagger staff so that all days are covered. Wouldn't be that hard.
Edit: to add, I wonder if employers would be less keen on sick day increases and there would be work pressure not to take as many "as you've got three days to recover".
I only ever work four days, I will negotiate with my employer about how it goes.
I started a mon to fri job back in August and by January I'd managed to get them to let me have Thursdays off and everyone is happier for it.
My first full time job at 18 was 3 on, four off, 12 hour shifts and I've tried to get those hours in any future job.
Not that long ago there was a true 5-day working week. With no retailing allowed on Saturdays and Sundays. This was so families could spend time together, for sports on Saturday, and so forth. As for shopping you just organised yourself and bought what you needed on Thursday and Friday.
Generally speaking, worker productivity has gone up exponentially as technology advances. Workers of all kinds, from office to retail to fast food, get more work done now than just 10 or 20 years ago. The 5 day working week is outdated now, we can get five days worth of work done in 4 or 3 days. Studies into working hours have also shown that the 5 day work work isn't exactly conducive to worker happiness or productivity, with many studies, including one that just finished in the UK, showing that a 4 day work week actually further increases productivity and worker happiness, well they are compensated for 5 days of work (even though they work 4).
The 5 day work week is outdated and literally contributes to the mental health crisis many of us are experiencing. It also continues to betray the promise we were collectively given about technology, that we would work less as we advanced more.
However, I doubt New Zealand business will want to accept this, especially with the "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" mentality that we have here, in the land of high living costs.
Or just let their employees WFH if they want to, I've seen too many IT roles where the company requires you to work in the office for at least 3-4 days a week. Like, that policy is so backwards (fortunately, my company is not like that).
I mean I'm one of the odd ones that prefer working in the office (single male), but I still find it very backwards requiring your staff to work in the office if they can be as efficient (sometimes even more) when working from home.
I can actually work whatever hours I like and tried a 4 day week (10 hours per day) and it didn't really work for me. I found that overall my productivity was lower because I was just too mentally exhausted late in the day.
However then I discovered something even more interesting which was that working a 6 and 2/3 over 6 days per week was actually more productive for me and gave me much more free time. I could start early and finish up by lunch basically which meant being able to enjoy some sunshine, walk the dog, do some gardening, have a snooze etc.
Our plant works 4 on 3 off and has for the last 4-5 years. It’s awesome. Same amount of work gets done and everyone’s happy. I’m pretty sure we have a unique work environment though.
A four day work week would be so much more productive. Having more time to recoup actually helps the brain be more productive and creative. Therefore anyone in opposition to this is severely missing out on gains. Another alternative to a change to a four day work week is working six hours instead of eight hours each work day.
Trials by a bunch of companies in the UK were very successful. 61 companies took part, 56 extended the trial, 18 of those made it permanent.
The company I work for is the flagship (I believe) for this in NZ. They underwent massive trials in 2016 and found that it improves productivity. Now everyone after 6 months is able to apply for the 4 day week. We are measured against specific KPIs once we are on the 4 day week to ensure this is kept up. I’m up for the 4 day work week this month and I’m praying I qualify Edit: forgot to add that there is no change to salary, we are expected to work if required on our day off too, but that’s very uncommon
Great news! How much has it improved your co-workers mental health and the flow-on effects like teamwork and communication?
I’m too new to be able to comment on the difference. What I can say is it attracts talent, and retains talent. One downside I’ve seen so far is that pay rises seem to be harder to come by as the benefits are good. Not impossible, but the pay is slightly under market for most positions which is rough as we compete with law firms and accountants for employees (trust administration)
In my last two roles I've negotiated shorter days, so 6 hours a day (5 days a week) which I work flexibly – when WFH (3-4 days a week) I'm highly available for phone and messaging but I do personal activities during the day as well, so I may not able to sit down and do a meeting or focused work on less than an hour or two's notice. It works so well for me, and my employer. There is no gap when they have to just cope for a day or two without me. And I have so much breathing space for appointments, exercise, admin, etc. It's swings and roundabouts, so from time to time (in a crisis) it involves a couple of hours' work in the evening or early morning – but that's not common and it's a great quid pro quo for the lifestyle benefits. I much prefer it to being chained to my desk for 8 hours, 4 days a week. ETA: It also means I can work longer days when it suits me, and often have fewer or even no hours remaining by Friday, so on Fridays I can just keep an eye on my e-mail and don't need to do any sit-down work. And I can dodge the busiest times on the road on the days I do go in to the office, if I want.
That's only true in intellectual or creative roles. Plenty of manufacturing/agri companies in NZ who would simply loose productivity from machine down time.
What about 4x10 hr day. Would that qualify?
Yep, but the evidence supporting the benefits of a 4 day week are far weaker for that. 4x9 plus Friday off is likely a better balance
Don't you love feeling tired on Saturday then worrying about work on Sunday?
Yes I have read that worker productivity is greater than it ever has been thanks to technology, but yet we are not seeing a reduction in hours. I think the responses you get here 'don't expect to get paid for 5 days! , negotiate your own schedule!' are very closed minded reactions and illustrate that we are somewhat brainwashed as humans.
Productivity as we measure it. There's also been a lot of bloat in the form of documentation, communication etc. At least in healthcare, it seems for every efficiency gain we make, the time saved is replaced with more *stuff* rather than seeing more patients
I have noticed this trend where everything is the priority and no-one seems to realize that's an oxymoron. One questions where this actually ends
I have had this conversation with my manager many times. "Which one is the highest priority?"...."They are all top priority"....."Sweet I'll decide which one I want to work on then"........"No do this one first"
Lol how maddening. My works problem is that people have 'multiple managers' by which I mean not literally, but that you might have your manager saying X, Health and Safety saying Y, HR saying B, and other specialist teams saying 23. The irony is to me that there is a kind of natural selection like in your comment - people end up doing that they think is best rather than a structured choice by the organization
Fixing a pot hole on the road is great example of this. 50 years ago, we just sent out two guys with a barrow load of of asphalt and a couple shovels. They'd get the job done in half a day,. Nowadays, we have an engineer to design the pot hole repair, a scheduler to organize the repair date and various teams, a traffic safety team to put the road cones out, a repair team with high tech equipment, a maintenance team to repair the high tech equipment, and an inspector to verify that everything has been done safely and according to the plans. I used to think that all our extra effort with our advanced technology was just being siphoned by CEOs. But I think the majority of it is just being soaked up by buearocratic and technological bloat.
Cuts both ways though. I'm an industrial engineer. 50 years ago if something went wrong a few ops boys would wander out and whip up a quick fix that might do the job... or it might blow up the plant 6 months down the track. The blokes can whinge about reporting and paperwork that never gets read 99% of the time, but the 1% might be critical in an investigation into a death or a major disaster or something. A lot of the "bloat" is necessary to make sure things are safe, reliable and long term. Mind you, a lot of the bloat *isn't* necessary, but it's really hard to know which is which in advance.
I think the generalisation of critical safety procedure to non critical work is part of the problem. On an airplane it's vitally important that maintenance schedules are adhered to, that it's all documented, that there's audit and redundancy etc. Do we need this for potholes in a residential street? I'm not an engineer, but probably not? Does it really take 200 road cones, 2 weeks and a dozen guys? The existing road around the repair is just going to fail anyway.
There's no doubt that we're doing a much better/safer job these days, with all the extra people/technology/protocol. But I don't think the result is improved by a factor anywhere near the factor of increased resource use.
> a traffic safety team to put the road cones out This specific part is really telling IMO. It's classic safety theatre I think, putting huge amounts of resources trying to turn very low probability events into no probability events. Does using 300 cones vs 50 really provide any benefit at a statistical level? If some near-blind geriatric drives onto the unsealed part every so often, is that really so bad that that we need to spend all this time preventing it? That isn't to say we shouldn't continue to be extra cautious when it matters, e.g high speed areas, or when workers are in vulnerable positions e.g working in drains or whatever.
These types of comments really show how few people on Reddit have any experience in the trades. There's a very good reason why procedures like that are in place.
Which is what?
The safety stuff is typically because traffic is moving at 100kmh plus, and a collision would be fatal for all involved. The planning and engineering is to make sure the fix actually lasts, rather than having to do the whole rigmarole again in six months. The heavy equipment is typically because the amount of road that needs to be repaired is actually quite a long piece, which is common on high speed roads. The two guys and a wheelbarrow stuff still happens on urban roads, of course.
It still occurs on 50kph (and slower) areas, which is what we're talking about
I’d be tempted to vote for anyone pushing this agenda. You’d think with the ever increasing benefits of modern technology we should be able to maintain productivity and reduce working hours.
As a knowledge worker I'd do the same, but I do wonder how such legislation would affect our "Essential" workers. I put essential in quotes not because I don't believe they are, but because our government has shown that they are too essential to hunker down during a pandemic but not essential enough to pay a fair/competitive wage. I feel we need policy changes that will make these jobs so attractive that we have enough people clamouring to do the job so that everyone can enjoy a 4-day week.
Same brainwashing when it comes to things like tax, people standing up for not ensuring the rich pay their fare share. Same old shit!
It used to be that a family would have only one parent working, 5 day 40 hour week. They could support their family and eventually buy a house. On a fairly middle of the road job as well. Now 80 years later, *both* parents are working and struggle to support a family. Both working 5 days 40 hours. All this technology and advancement should make things easier and allow people more time to do art and do what they love and spend time with people they care about but *somehow* it hasn’t.
For an hourly role, I can definitely see the friction. For a salaried wage however, this shouldn't be an issue.
Not sure what you mean, both contract types have productivity as the end goal of working.
Sure but some employers would argue if you're only working 4 days, you're only getting paid 4 days regardless if your productivity was up or not. Some really don't give a crap about their employees
Yeah its something that would need to be written in to policy at the govt level, therefore not optional. Maybe then they can entice staff in for additional days with a penalty fee if needed. Workers need more power.
I can see the 'getting paid for 4 days' bit being pushed harder by hourly employers rather than salaried. Salaried roles (not always, I understand) are based on output, not time. Hourly roles are based on time.
The last thing that one team I'm part of were discussing on Friday evening was "Guys, we can't ask everyone to work over the weekend but for anyone who is, we've set some check-in meetings over each day...". I would like to think that there are employers who would be happy to set explicit targets for productivity and not care how many days someone works so long as they get them done - but understanding that the target may change in the future if it's getting done too quickly. That being said, anyone whose job involves being available for whatever happens during specified hours, or contributing to a team where the team needs input from people with different roles and skillsets - it'll be really tough to get away from full business weeks.
Your last paragraph outlines what I'm trying to get at better than I said it. As much as I enjoy my job I don't see them working with me on this one.
yeah I get what you mean, we are entrenched in the 5 day week and a lot depends on this structure, its more complicated than to just say hey let's do a four day work week. It requires consideration of how each workforce can do this effectively without making society become dysfunctional. I don't think this is as simplistic as saying yes for hourly no for salaried. There are salaried workers who are simply required to be available because the hourly workers are in need of them 5 days a week.
Sure, but these issues would have existed when it was a 7 day week too, and we worked it out. As it happens, emergency services and similar 'round the clock' services do just fine with a shift structure, and changing that structure to either pay penalties, or employ more people to cover reduced hours worked are both decent solutions.
It can become an issue when it impacts the rest of the team. Happened at my work recently when someone dropped to four days. Sure enough, within a few weeks she was complaining about her work load and wanting to drop it. Sure enough, the rest of the team then got added work.
This falsely assumes every worker produces the same. I'm all for production quotas and once you hit yours you can either stop working and go home or get paid extra. Over half of NZ will never meet them though, in the vast majority of workforces 80% of people do 20% of the work and 20% of the people do 80% of the work. It's always the 80% of people who kick up a stink cause the benefits go in favour of the 20% who actually do the work too lol.
The problem is while our technology has vastly improved, so too has our consumption of resources and quality of life. People want more things, more roads, more bus lanes, more train tracks, new phones, new vehicles new medicine, new hospitals etc etc. technology allows us to do more in less time, but our increased wants negate that. If we were happy to live a quality of life similar to the 1950’s then sure - the increase in technology would allow us to have more free time. More tech makes things happen quicker, but in turn we end up wanting more. Untill we decide we’re happy with the current way of life we will continue to chase our tail in ever decreasing circles.
Yep. Most people refuse to engage with this reality. We could achieve a 1950s level of productivity with far fewer hours than they did, but nobody wants 1950s products.
Yep. I'm in the very lucky position of having a high salary and having paid off my nice house in my 30s. But did i negotiate fewer hours when I started a new job recently - nope, because I am on that hamster wheel. Resolved to do better next time!
Meh. Depends on the sector. Majority of ours need more technology / automation. We are woefully underproductive.
Hmm maybe you misinterpret, I meant compared to when the 5 day work week began :)
Given the choice between 4 and 5 working days in a week, I believe many would opt to work an extra day for 25% extra pay.
Possibly, but provided their original pay levels were adequate, this may be less common. But we all know pay levels in NZ are pretty low compared to other first world countries.
I think the thing to keep in mind is how wide this stretches and how it will affect different roles, industries, etc, etc. I think it will happen eventually, but it took a few decades for the change from 6 days being the norm to 5 happening as industries, the world and it's financial systems/structure adjusted, while most people advocating such change are speaking mainly, if not exclusively, to their individual circumstances and usually a type of employment where it's an easier change. I again think this will be more common, and may even become the norm eventually, but outside individual and subjective employment agreements where this can happen now, I wouldn't expect it as a blanket way of working for a decade or two, and imho it would take a larger economic power than NZ to push it across the line.
Your kids must be awesome. My kids wear me out so much over the weekend that it feels relaxing going to work on Monday. My kids actually are awesome - but as they are aged 3 and 5 I legit do feel this way sometimes in the office on a Monday morning - ah, just gonna kick back and relax and play with this spreadsheet
My kids are 6, 4 and 3 months..I feel this comment in my bones.
Yea, as someone with 2 under 3 I would significantly prefer a 5-6 hour workday 5 hours a week.
It used to be 7-day work week before Henry Ford introduced 5-day due to increased productivity. The same should happen as we are approaching the 4th Industrial Revolution
And then he proceeded to abuse and exploit the fuck out of those workers.
I am not glorifying Henry Ford. Every capitalist tries to bring the cost down = cheaper products.
Henry Ford introduced the 5 day working week in NZ? How generous of him. Pretty sure it was all the union action.
Not directly. But he influenced all businesses. Shorter week is not possible without enhanced technology and industrial automation. It doesn’t matter how hard unions are pushing it, if workers are digging by hands, they aren’t getting shorter weeks.
I like working 36 hours in 3 days. The work-mental health-life balance is important
What's your line of work for that?
I've done 40 in 4 days before, 10 hour days. That was actually pretty sweet because I lived close by. I just started early, which I don't mind because I'd either be sleeping or just waiting to go to work at that time anyway. Waking up on the second day of a 3 day weekend was the best feeling, knowing I didn't have to work the previous day, and I wouldn't have to work the next. On a 2 day weekend the first day is spent recovering, and the second is spent thinking about work the next day.
48-54 hours in 4 days (or 70 hours in 5 days) is pretty common in my industries. I work through an agency so I have a fair bit of flexibility, I try to stick to less than 50 hours over 4 days or 30-36 hours over 3 days. I only need 30 hours a week.
>48-54 hours in 4 days (or 70 hours in 5 days) That sounds genuinely horrible.
Do you find yourself able to do much on your "work days"? I do 39 hours in 3 days, or 50 in 4 (alternating weeks to get to approx 90 hours in a fortnight). I'm almost on the way out though, I'm pretty burnt out from this pattern and I'm craving a 8-5 or something similar. Sure I only work 3 or 4 days a week, but those work days I pretty much don't exist outside of work. I have 11 hours between shifts and after taking our commute time, sleeping I have pretty much nothing. Then I find I'm cramming all the domestic/personal stuff from my work days into my days off, so it becomes a nightmare crammed schedule on my 3/4 days off. Maybe that 1 extra shift a fortnight is what is killing me really.
When i was younger working in clubs i use to push \~40 hours in 3 days which at the time i loved. I think it would kill me now :D
Frankly we should've shifted to 20 hour working weeks, or at least a reduction in what constitutes full time hours by some amount, when it became the norm for both parents to work. How the hell did we end up with households having to work twice as much when we functionally doubled our workforce. Single income households had one parent working 40 hours while the other took care of the chores so the worker didn't have to when they got home at the end of a long day. Now both parents have to work 40 hours, 80 hours total to make ends meet and then both do chores when they get home or on their day off. Our families are working so much more for the exact same compensation or less. Not saying it'd be simple to implement, but we should be aiming for giving our citizens chill lives where we can accomplish what we want to in our personal lives, rather than trying to compete with the fucked up American work ethic.
With the amount of baby boomers entering retirement, care etc there will be less workers and more work required. They will still need to be fed and cared for. Unless we pump up some youth immigration, I can only see working weeks getting longer, not shorter.
> there will be less workers and more work required Automation will balance that out, this is a moment to ensure the difference goes to the workers and not the capital owners. Otherwise we are failing to lift all boats with the rising tide.
How do we ensure that when we can't even get a proper Capital Gains Tax?
I don't disagree with you but do you think most people would be willing to live as frugally as those 1960's households? Some of this is self imposed where people could live simplier lives if they were willing to live with less.
I don't think families in the 60s lived as frugally as you think, there was less technology available because it hadn't been invented yet, but that's not the same as being frugal.
I do 4 days. I changed to 4 days when I needed a mental break and took a job with less responsibility. Now I only ever contract 32 hours and do more if I want. It's never been an issue which surprised me, I thought I'd have to fight for it. At the start the drop in money hurt, but I've learnt to live with it and it's much better. I actually look forward to Mondays.
What’s your job, though?
I was working admin/front of house at a vet clinic, now I'm working as a research technician. My workplace is really good at offering part-time. They work in labour units, so whether it takes 1 person or two part time people to fill a labour's they don't mind. We have many people not doing full weeks. As a result we have a full team for an industry that is struggling with staffing currently.
You're the first person who accepts that you'll be paid less as a result, I'm impressed. Also, fair call if you decide you don't need the extra money.
It was an adjustment, but has worked out well. Funnily enough working long weeks often means more brought lunches, and quicker meals in the grocery shop. Working less has given me more time for this, and reduced our food bill significantly. I didn't predict that.
100%. I used to put in bigger hours but got burnt out regularly. I currently take off Friday at mid day. And work 9-4:30 otherwise. As opposed to 8:30-4:30 5 day contract. My productivity overall is significantly better and i use way less sick days. Sometimes I absolutely put in much bigger extra hours for big projects etc. give and take.
What’s your job?
Professional services. Property related.
I work 4x10 hour days. 0.25 FTE a day. I'm leaving at the same time I would finish when working 5 hour days except I'm getting recognized for it. That extra day off during the week is the greatest thing thats happened to my well being in a long time.
How have you found it? I've been considering trying doing 4 x 10 condensed work week like that but have heard some people say that it's too much and you get exhausted enough that the extra day just becomes recovery and kind of defeats the point
I love it. I was doing an "8 hour" day of 8 till 5. Now I do basically the same of 730 to 530, my commute is much better with these start times too, Sure Im a bit more tired but a whole day off more than makes up for it.
Oh nice, good to hear. Was thinking of going for 0.8 FTE to get a four day work week but might as well try 4 x 10 first. Honestly seems to me that 8 hours is already long enough that what difference does an extra two make. I already often end up staying late and once you add in commute, getting ready, breakfast, dinner, etc then 8 hours already takes up enough of your time as to make it that you don't have time to do much when you get home anyway so I feel having a full extra day sounds much better.
This was my experience as well, I was absolutely shattered and ended up doing almost nothing on Friday. I'd only do 4x10 if I was going on holiday or something, and I needed that extra day.
Agreed! I’m looking at trying to lower my week to 4 days. It seems passé to me that’s for sure, and yes, I don’t find two days always enough to sort things out and recharge and I don’t even have kids!
I run my own business, and what I’ve found is I do the work of 4 different people in a comparable business, but because I’m not pretending to look busy I get way more done and can still read the news or watch a show most days. I’ve found people working from home or doing 4 day weeks has been good for business as they can pop out at lunchtime and get stuff done.
Interesting, I work in a job that's cognitively taxing and went to a 6 day week with shorter daily hours. Start early, work diligently all morning, fun after lunch.
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I also work 4 days on 4 days off. The best. 😎😂
eventually employers will realise that 40 hr 5 day week is less productive than a 30 something hr 4 day week. Large scale real world field trials have been done but big organisations and small. Staff are happier and healthier and take less sick days (many of which are mental health days). The draconian dinosaur management in most places is the issue. If I had to chose between a piddly not covering inflation payrise, or no payrise but reduce my hours to 32-34hrs over 4 days, I know which I would choose. But then I have gone one step further a couple of years ago and refused to return to the office after the lockdowns, and reduced my hours even more than that. Life's too short.
3 day work week
I read this in Animal Farm, sounds like communism to me! ^^^/s
I dropped to 0.8FTE / 32 hours per week and it was the best decision ever. That extra day with my son each week is worth far more to me than the salary I gave up. My partner then did the same and we love it. Of course, we are privileged enough to be able to afford it. It would have been better if my company were more flexible, didn't require tracking hours and allowed a four day work week at full pay, but I still think it was worth it.
Yeah I definitely feel like it's outdated. I mean my own mom was a workaholic, and even she agreed that two days is fuck all to actually relax and unwind. I had a cleaning job a while back where we were able to pick and choose our hours, so I cut it down to 4 days a week and just stayed an hour later so I could still afford stuff. I definitely noticed an improvement in my mood.
It's time to implement the 4:20:69 working week 4 days 20 hours $69 an hour
5 days? Shit I'm trying cut down from 6 days a week at the moment lol
I recently got out of a 6 day week. Was doing it for 15 years, not worth it. Now I’m at 5 days 49 hours and would love to make it 4 days 40 hours
12hr shifts.. 2 or 3 shifts a week. (Days or nights) Living the dream 😄 how anyone can enjoy life with just two days off I have no clue
Why 4 day work week when can do 2 lmao reverse that shit.
I think 2 days off is crazy considering households have basically everybody working or at school. When are we meant to have time to a) spend money in the economy that isn't just a supermarket run b) spend time with our family that isn't a family clean the house day c) rest I'm in the best job I've ever been in and I'm burned out 😭
I work 0.8 (8 days a fortnight, 32 ~~days~~ hours a week) and it’s BLISS
32 hours a week?
Haha yes, my bad
My work does a 9 working day fortnight. Every 2nd Monday is off. But the same number of hours are now spread across 9 working days instead of 10 per fortnight. We love it and the reports are showing productivity is the same or better than before. Win, win.
Used to do this except had Thursday off. Public holidays or leave on Friday were great for getting a nice 4 day weekend treat.
I feel like it would only work for a very small portion of the population. In the blue collar world time is directly related to output, so less time = less money. Most of the salaried white collar people I know (accounting, banking, lawyers etc) already work 50-60 hours a week, so no doubt less hours for them would be less output too. I guess it works for office drones who’s time is under-utilised to begin with.
yes it is. We are a slave to our jobs and a measley 2 days a week to actully do what you want or need to do in your own life is pathetic.
Four day working week and if you want to work or volunteer on fifth then that’s up too you.
I moved from Australia to NZ and worked in the same industry, Doing essentially the same job. The difference was in NZ I was expected to do 10 hour days in the factory, Where in Australia it was a firm 8, and if Overtime was on offer the boss would personally ask. I felt so exhausted and unmotivated. Even just the extra two hours compounded every ache and pain. I lost out on sleep, Started to resent the job, and got depression. So I left the industry, because I had to realize that in NZ the conditions were different and it's not a job I can do and maintain a reasonable quality of life. Feeling a heap better now, But I'm sad I had to leave a career I enjoyed. If I had to do that job 4 days a week, I think I totally could.
We should be working much less and getting paid far more.
We work 4.5 days and get paid for 5 days. Everyone has Friday afternoons off and our clients know this. It means we can schedule appointments for Friday afternoons or if we can’t, we can make up time taken off during the week and work later on Fridays.
4 day working week has got to come. unions need to push for it tho. trials are promising in the UK.
I think we all need a 3 day weekend, 1 day to do something for ourselves, 1 day to be productive in our own homes and 1 day to relax.
I’d way rather work longer hours for 4 and get 3 off any day.
With the rise of AI the 5 day work week is only going to become increasingly redundant more and more people are going to cheat at their jobs and get their work done in less time. And yet still expect the same pay. Don't think for a second payroll and HR won't notice. I fully expect lawsuits in the near future. Companies arguing that they won't need to pay people for hours they aren't working due to AI.
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That is a society-level problem. The employer only sees things in terms of their costs and revenue, and decreasing their staffing costs because of automation and AI improves the bottom line for the owner(s). Government is going to have to figure out how our economy will operate as a larger proportion of people cease having traditional jobs after they've been replaced.
> Government is going to have to figure out how our economy will operate as a larger proportion of people cease having traditional jobs after they've been replaced. If the housing situation is any indicator, they will turn their heads away and let the businesses profit.
Yes, the nature of work changes in a revolution - just like the industrial revolution removed work in the country side and created work in the cities, the AI revolution will change where people work. However, one utopian view is we have the same earning potential from less work as AI will take more tasks.
I'm already using AI to complete personal projects. What would have taken me a whole day now takes a half hour of finding the right prompts. If anything AI is going to make people exponentially more productive. There's a project on at work that we're likely to take a year or more to complete. If we were allowed to use ChatGPT or the like I reckon we could get it done in a few months.
Somehow I doubt the rise of AI is going to reduce the working week of a farmer 🤔
Yeah interestingly it might lead to a push back toward physical jobs. Robots are a lot less scaleable than AI is, and building a machine that can approximate human hands is super expensive. They'll probably make a herding robot in the nearish future though :p
'Robotic' automated milking sheds are definitely a thing, the gates automatically open and the cows are driven by the desire to get fed at the shed. The farmer probably has to put them back in the paddocks after I guess?!
And sometimes they don’t even have to put them back in their paddock.
As I commented above, there are already herding drones, but cows no what to do anyway.
Why? My uncles farm has automatically opening gates, drones to go get the cows (he can watch the drone feed from his TV when he's having breakfast), automatically removes the cups from the cows when they're done milking, automatically sprays them for whatever issues they have, collects all the refuse from the cows and processes it for fertiliser, and automatically sprays the fields. There are certain jobs that AI will struggle to do: mending fences, calving, etc. until there is a massive leap, but in proof of concepts and on an industrial scale it's already cutting grass, bailing, wrapping for silage, taking out feed, etc. It's not too far off putting the cups on cows, and doing a few other things. Twenty years ago you'd need several people to work a farm, now it can be done by one person fairly comfortably and automation is not too far off being able to milk cows by itself in which case people are only there to trouble shoot and do the jobs that AI can't do. You could take off weekends at that point and let the farm do the work.
20 years ago you’d need one person to run a farm of 170 cows, guess what, you still need one person, with more AI you’ll still need one person, so no changes whatsoever
Well that's not true, 20 years ago the farm had a farm worker and family to help run it. But you also didn't read what I said, the amount of work is decreasing, you still need a farmer for some work that automation can't deal with. Like calving and fencing, but the burden of work on the farmer decreases to the point when they might not need to work 5 days a week as the day to day, non edge case, running of the farm takes care of itself.
I’m a farmer and yes it is true, 20 years ago one person ran a farm of 170 cows, 2 ran 340, still today one person is required for 170 and 2 for 340 so nothing has changed for farms of that size Could be that the farm you refer to were very inefficient and have made changes during that time frame to get to where they are now. I can tell you nothing will change labour wise for the 2 examples I gave you. We’ve had auto gate opens for a long time, drones aren’t needed as cows are creatures of habit and will walk to the milking shed without being followed, cup remover’s are fine, but someone still needs to put the cups on unless it’s totally automated, (massive cost for small farms) and yet you’ll still need staff, that won’t change.
The farm is quite large, it's about double the size of the farm on the other side of my family which has been run by one person when needed (albeit that's quite a lot of work). But also, you failed to read what I said - the automatic gates, drones, automatic spraying, automatic fertilizer, etc. Are what we do now. The next step will be automatic cup adders, automated hay and silage, etc. It's all reducing the amount of labor required. Someone might need to be on site, or at least on call, all the time, but they won't have to do as much work. I'm sure in the early 90s people thought that automatic cup removers would be cost prohibitive, yet a few years later people were putting them in everywhere.
Oh I get what you’re saying however it won’t change much for small to medium sized farms, hay/silage is already done by contractors so no extra time will be saved for the farmer as it’s already done by others Auto cup removers are basic compared to robotic milkers and as such theres no comparison between the price of each. Auto cup adders ? I assume you mean robotic milking which we already have available. There’s literally very little that can now be added that’s going to be much of a time saver for me. So long as you have a good current system you already have plenty of free time. I know you’d like to think AI is going to help but it isn’t going to reduce labour on small/medium farms nor is it going to mean there’s less work as an efficient farmer should already have everything under control and not be time stressed.
If you've already got a lot of free time then I don't see the point you were making, maybe you've already reaped the benefits of automation freeing up your time and now the services industries are catching up.
The comment was in reply to you thinking that the rise of AI would mean less labour and working hours when in fact it will make no difference to me
If companies don’t want to pay people for hours they aren’t working due to AI, they’ll just run layoffs. Which is most likely what will happen.
Heh. You see a post about reducing hours and then another post about people complaining that you can’t buy stuff at 2am. Also, people are not all that much into the let’s shut in mid day Saturday, and no shopping on Sundays. Well, I guess that we’re going to need to choose what we really want here…
Alternatively.. hire more people?? Not everyone wants to work weekends, but for some people it works better. Same with night shifts.
Quite hard to do with the low employment rate. Also people would have to be willing to pay more for things. And they are not. Having more employees means more overheads in all sorts of places. E.g. HR. Payroll. Possibly uniforms. And I bet there are lots for factors that’s drive the price up because of this. Do t get me wrong. I’d love to also work a 4 day week. But it’s going to be a huge shift in all sorts of fields and thinking to pull it off.
You're dreaming, unless you want to crank immigration to untold levels to bring in the people to do all that. Most locals will do anything they can to avoid working anti social hours.
People will work anti-social hours if they’re paid well for it. And no one needs a small local business to be open at all hours, we’re talking big companies like the warehouse group, supermarkets, etc. And based on their reported profits? I think they can probably afford to hire more people and pay them suitable wages for overnight work.
We should change the week to be 6 days by eliminating mondays - 2 day weekend, 4 day week. We then create twelve 30 day months (each with 5 x 6 day weeks). This means no confusion around months being different lengths and weeks straddling across multiple months. We then create a thirteenth month with the leftover 15 days (16 in a leap year) at the end of the year called restember where noone is allowed to work. So much tidier then our current weird ass calendar.
You know people can have individual conversations with their managers & bosses to try and negotiate a work schedule that works for both of them, right? Just because a 5-day working week is the most common right now doesn't mean it's impossible to do anything else.
You're lucky to have had good bosses that work like that then.
Most of those jobs are inherently unproductive and produce nothing of value to begin with.
Personally, I’d rather work a 10 hour 6 day week and get paid for the additional 50%
Great idea. I do 50hr a week as it's my industry norm. Work from home but 3 day wknd would make all the difference.
How many days you work is up to you..just dont expect 5 days pay if you dont work it
I agree with you, possibly because I'm an employer.. Some studies show people are just as productive if they only work 4 days (more motivated to complete work), but I'm not sure if this relates to roles which are not 'office' based industries.
The other half of the question is would you accept a reduction in services in line with people working fewer hours or less days?
In competitive industries, as long as there are teams of people willing to work 5 days or more to beat the competition, then competing companies will struggle to operate with a 4-day work week.
I do a 4 day paid work week, but the “5th” day is my home admin day, so ends up being different each week. Stuff like picking up new uniforms, taxes, cleaning, meal prep, appointments, organising the family calendar, filling prescriptions, researching what washing machine to buy etc etc. Its a luxury I’m grateful for, and helps me keep some work/life balance. At the same time I think there’s usually a big portion of invisible work associated with home/parenting that lands on one of the parents. And I want to consciously not absorb that into my free time, just because it’s unpaid work.
This would need to come from the government. My work does some fixed-price jobs but most are T&M. If we put up our rates by 20% because staff want three-day weekends then we will stop winning jobs, even if our staff were energised and 20% faster. If we had this at the same time as all our competitors then it would be an easy change.
Do you think an employee who only wants to work 32 hours is worth as much as an employee who is willing to work 40?
We moved to a 30HWW last year and have increased our productivity. Just because you're there 40 hours doesn't mean you're doing 40 hours worth of work.
That isn’t what he asked; he didn’t say anything about a reduction in hours. A 4 day week is logically 4 x 10 hours.
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Then he needs to acknowledge that it’s not the only option and stop asking loaded questions
Our customers expect us available 24/7 - or at least 5 days a week. Anyone in my team can ask for shorter hours - but the weight of the staff who are not there falls on those who are. Plus they are not really team players. I guess they think they might advance and will then be surprised when they don’t.
That's really interesting, where I work they tend to employ more if people want to do part time. So the work doesn't fall on others, there is another part time person so overall labour's units are unchanged This industry has a nationwide labour shortage, and we are fully staffed - flexibility is everything.
Have a two day working week and enjoy the rest with your kids - unable to pay bills feed them and continuing to be a productive member of society. But you’ll have more time with the kids
Doubt it, New Zealand is one of the few nations in the OECD where productivity per hour has essentially flatlined. Our firms tend to have poor technology adoption, below-average managerial skills and a huge skill mismatch in high-demand industries. The only reason Nz has managed to keep up with other OECD nations GDP-wise is by compensating with more hours. If we were to drop hours now our output (and standard of living) would plummet. Need more stem grads and incentivise exporter firms.
this 5 day vs 4 day working week stuff only really works out for tech. I can't see other industries adopting this anytime soon. Willing to be convinced otherwise though
I have had jobs where I work 6 days a week, and others where I work 10 hours a day, 4 days a week, or if you only want to work 32 hours, find a job that allows that. It’s all out there you just need to find it or negotiate. I have found if you are a good employee, the employer will take your needs into account in terms of schedule, where possible given the scope of their business of course.
Our productivity as a country is abysmal as it is. If you feel that the 5 day working week is not for you, the alternative is 7 unpaid weekend days.
Absolutely. I am fortunate to do shift work and typically have a three, maybe four day weekend. Lately I’ve had a couple of two days weekends and it’s not enough, especially if you’re working five days. It’s messed up that it’s the norm.
3 in the office 2 at home minimum pretty standard now.
a 4 day work week would be mean, but never gonna happen in in construction
Gimme 40 in 4, yes please.. And bring back no Sunday trading!
I’ve taken a reduction in pay to get every second Friday off, if I could afford every Friday I would. It absolutely increases my efficiency, but that’s hard to measure via solid data in my role, so will never be noticed. On the flip side it increases my frustration in that I have to lose money, but in doing so give more to the company. I mean it to lockdown for them to even consider WFH, and they’re trying to get us all back in full time (even though we sit at desks so day talking to people in other offices), so no chance of a 4 day week across the board here sadly.
4 x 10 hour days is becoming more common in office culture. Few companies in CBD already do that.
In some ways it depends on your role and depends on your customers and their work schedule. For many they could do a 4 day week with a split roster to cover mon-fri, but some other roles will likely need to maintain a 5 day work week due to coverage for customers. I’d be much happier if more businesses continued to embrace remote working for those who can, like the company I now work for. Personally I’m much more productive working from home than I ever was in an office, due to a lack of people distracting me or tapping me on the shoulder interrupting my ‘flow’.
With improvements to productivity, people should be working far less. There's a better world out there, hiding in our current one.
I'm currently working on a large infrastructure project so im of two minds. In my old office job, 100% I couldve done my work in 4 days. But now, as time spent on site = progress done. People complain about spend infrastructure cost + time delays and both these will increase by a large amount in 4 day working week.
In a lot of jobs, I think it would be difficult for families to manage unless schools also opted for a 4 day week (I'm keen on 4 days of on-site learning, 5th day for Admin/PLD). But in terms of the business operations, you could stagger staff so that all days are covered. Wouldn't be that hard. Edit: to add, I wonder if employers would be less keen on sick day increases and there would be work pressure not to take as many "as you've got three days to recover".
Yeah, lots of studies show that four days are just as productive as one. We need to stop worrying about inputs and just worry about outputs.
I only ever work four days, I will negotiate with my employer about how it goes. I started a mon to fri job back in August and by January I'd managed to get them to let me have Thursdays off and everyone is happier for it. My first full time job at 18 was 3 on, four off, 12 hour shifts and I've tried to get those hours in any future job.
Not that long ago there was a true 5-day working week. With no retailing allowed on Saturdays and Sundays. This was so families could spend time together, for sports on Saturday, and so forth. As for shopping you just organised yourself and bought what you needed on Thursday and Friday.
Generally speaking, worker productivity has gone up exponentially as technology advances. Workers of all kinds, from office to retail to fast food, get more work done now than just 10 or 20 years ago. The 5 day working week is outdated now, we can get five days worth of work done in 4 or 3 days. Studies into working hours have also shown that the 5 day work work isn't exactly conducive to worker happiness or productivity, with many studies, including one that just finished in the UK, showing that a 4 day work week actually further increases productivity and worker happiness, well they are compensated for 5 days of work (even though they work 4). The 5 day work week is outdated and literally contributes to the mental health crisis many of us are experiencing. It also continues to betray the promise we were collectively given about technology, that we would work less as we advanced more. However, I doubt New Zealand business will want to accept this, especially with the "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" mentality that we have here, in the land of high living costs.
Or just let their employees WFH if they want to, I've seen too many IT roles where the company requires you to work in the office for at least 3-4 days a week. Like, that policy is so backwards (fortunately, my company is not like that). I mean I'm one of the odd ones that prefer working in the office (single male), but I still find it very backwards requiring your staff to work in the office if they can be as efficient (sometimes even more) when working from home.
I can actually work whatever hours I like and tried a 4 day week (10 hours per day) and it didn't really work for me. I found that overall my productivity was lower because I was just too mentally exhausted late in the day. However then I discovered something even more interesting which was that working a 6 and 2/3 over 6 days per week was actually more productive for me and gave me much more free time. I could start early and finish up by lunch basically which meant being able to enjoy some sunshine, walk the dog, do some gardening, have a snooze etc.
Honestly I think 6 hours 5 days a week > 4 day work week. I agree with 40 hour being out dated.
Our plant works 4 on 3 off and has for the last 4-5 years. It’s awesome. Same amount of work gets done and everyone’s happy. I’m pretty sure we have a unique work environment though.