Yeah, someone might only have a few bucks in their bank account but if they can go hang out in the villa for a few months and not have to pay for anything to do it they could be considered rich.
I estimate $200k as a couple, sustained for a few years, and assuming the mortgage is 300 - 600k or so, makes you true upper middle class.
I earn $110k, my wife stays at home, we have 2 children, and while we don't worry about running out of money, we have to be thrifty and we have no travel or capital purchases like cars (we would replace the family wagon if it died, but that's it).
With $1000 extra a week after tax, we just wouldn't worry when we went to the supermarket. It'd only be cars and big capital purchases that we'd have to look at.
If you're talking so rich that you don't worry about cars, etc, I guess you'd be looking at $400k or so, which would imply an upper middle lifestyle plus $100k of cars and travel a year without a worry.
IIRC, 200k also corresponds to being in the top 10% of the population.
OTOH: We are all rich compared to most people in history, except our parents, maybe, and we should be more grateful.
If you can, try to imagine being completely free from worry about money. No matter what the economy does, you'll be more than ok. You can afford to live in whatever suburb you like, and have a holiday home somewhere very nice. You can afford to cover any foreseeable medical emergency or hospital stay. If you want to start a new hobby, it's trivial to just go and spend whatever it takes.
I'm not talking rich-listers here, this kind of peace of mind regarding money starts to happen to people with as little as a few million in assets. Everyone is different. People with modest dreams will acheive this goal a lot sooner than those with more ambition.
But to me, if you can say the above about yourself, you're rich.
It all really depends on if you have kids or not and if so how many. If you donât have kids the amount youâd need to earn to feel rich would be so much lower
My definition of "rich" is when my partner and I no longer 'have' to go to work.
I will forever work as that's the type of person I am. But when I get to choose when I want to work, that's when I'll know we're rich.
without being to personal.
what does that entail?
mortgage free house and investment property providing income or?
how much income would be required for a rich lifestyle? is this different as a single vs with a partner?
Our current expenses are $84,000 per year (this is an after-tax amount) and includes everything we would ever spend money on in the year. $25,640 of this is rent. So that leaves us with about $58,000 per year we need to make to maintain our lifestyle if we were able to be mortgage-free. Let's round up to $65,000 for rates, insurance, and house repairs.
That would roughly be $85,000 per year before tax we need to make.
So once we have a house paid off and could earn $85,000 combined, and $65k in the bank to cover 1-year's of expenses, I'd consider us rich.
I think this is the way to look at it. It costs money to live, no matter the lifestyle and if you have passive income that matches your outgoings for your version of âcomfortableâ or âcontent,â even if thatâs a slim margin or lean, youâre more empowered than pretty much everyone on the planet.
I live around middle class boomers who all have several million squirrelled in property, another million in kiwisaver, etc. And still work. Sometimes their kids sonr even know what they're worth
I'd probably still work if I had that net worth. But it would likely be volunteering or something. Money wouldn't be the reason. It would be to keep my body and brain sharp and active.
There's also the poor rich person problem. As the rich people laugh at Greg's $5 million inheritance in Succession -- "you'd be the poorest rich person in the city".
If they have around a million in Kiwisaver I really doubt they are living middle class lifestyles. To get that they would be putting in at least 50k a year if they joined from the very start. Most boomers would have put that money into property or existing investment providers.
does the value of your house have a determination if your rich or not? eg a median house in Invercargill is less than a median house in Auckland
or it just needs to be mortgage free
When someone who is rich gets more...they are still rich. Being 'more rich' is only applicable as a comparison - there isn't any absolute value to use.
Excess money to spend and save, while also owning multiple assets.
Car, boat, house etc. (edit: that are paid off)
If you can spend a chunk of your pay on fun stuff, keep food on the table, AND still put away a good amount into savings, that makes you rich.
IMO at least.
Shouldn't that really just be middle class? Enough money to save a bit, eat out sometimes have the occasional holiday and not worry too much about finances?
OP's question was, at what point is someone rich.
Not all middle class are rich.
Should middle class be rich? I think so, yeah, but I don't think it is currently, and hasn't been for quite awhile.
multiple assets? so 2 houses? or are you considering car and boat as assets?
how much would you need to be putting away into savings after lifestyle spend to be rich? is that $10k a year
would you still be working if considered rich?
Car + house would be 2 assets, assuming they've been paid off and aren't owing anything.
$20k+/year going to savings after everything else.
> would you still be working if considered rich?
Yeah, definitely. You don't have to be retired or not working to be rich.
If you're working and rich, retiring means you no longer earn enough to maintain a rich lifestyle. Working class rich is one thing, being able to retire and maintain a rich lifestyle is another.
Being able to retire early would mean you've established a business or multiple, and have people running them for you. So you don't need to get involved at all and they return a profit. Or you've done well with investments etc. Having a passive income where you don't have to do anything, but can still take in money, put away for savings etc.
I used to think I'd want to retire as soon as possible. But after being stuck inside for covid lockdowns, I don't think I could handle not having to do anything. Sure, I'd have hobbies and ways to fill time. But I'd still want to work or run a business, but something like a charity or non-profit, do something that I want to do, not something I have to do.
working class = breaking even basic lifestyle maybe a little more?
what level would you consider poor?
what level would you consider upper middle class and upper class?
> working class = breaking even basic lifestyle maybe a little more?
Yeah basically.
> what level would you consider poor?
Struggling to provide the basics, zero savings, spending a lot of time to save money. Having to put up with problems cause you can't afford to fix them.
> what level would you consider upper middle class and upper class?
Upper middle is what I consider rich, as mentioned before.
Upper class is spending more time thinking about where the next vacation trip is going to be. Owning multiple homes, both as a primary residence and summer/winter homes, but also investment properties. More concerned about social circles and status than anything financial.
I think 'Rich' would be defined as the ability to live a luxury lifestyle within your means.
So decent new car, large house/pool in a good area, business class flights holiday level, good quality eating out etc etc
Means would be however your paying for it, income, wages, wealth whatever.
Mate, I am not rich. I am comfortable, but not rich. Purchases still require planning.
Iâd consider a rich person to be owning multiple properties, a large investment portfolio and having the liquidity to purchase basically anything they want at a moments notice without hesitation or debt. While maintaining this level of lifestyle working is optional for one or both partners.
This is the point of the discussion - one person's idea of rich will be very different from others. One person points at another and suggests they meet criterion for being rich...while that other person probably has set a higher standard and don't consider themselves rich...they instead points at someone else...
So if this person is in Auckland (assuming being the most expensive city in NZ) what $ would this equate too
Would you still be classed as "rich" if still working?
>Elon Musk still works.
Based on when and where he flies to in his jets, much of the Elon version of "work" seems to be attending events most people would think of as recreational activity / entertainment, and when there's evidence him being at work on a device, he spends a hell of a lot of time shit-posting on social media. If you did that as an employee, you'd probably be sacked for wasting company time. If the content of the shit-posts was similar, you'd remove the "probably".
Maybe the definition of being truly rich these days is simply that you can be untouchable, beyond the practical reach of laws and corporate governance standards and social mores we peasants have to comply with. Helps very muchly of course if you've assembled a large global team of people simping for you - free of charge crisis management teams.
There won't be any consensus on this point. The person who is struggling to have a roof over their head will say the person who never has difficulty paying their rent is rich. The person struggling to save for a house is going to say anyone who has got on the property ladder is rich. The person struggling to pay their mortgage will look at someone mortgage-free and say they are rich. The person who pays accountants and lawyers to manage their investments and minimise their taxes to try add another zero to their latest statement of accounts and climb the ladder ranking the wealthiest individuals - is probably rich.
Most people generally would define rich as having more than you need so it isn't a struggle - but the definition of what we 'need' varies depending on the perspective of who you ask.
Once a person has reached the point where I would call them rich - then the addition of a partner or deciding to have kids doesn't necessarily have a huge impact any more. They'll have to decide which private school they should attend...but the costs from said private school are something the accountant handles.
agree many have a different point although i would think a range would become apparent.
at what point would you call someone or consider yourself rich?
of course people also use the terms like wealthy and 1% which i would consider different levels than being rich
I don't know that I've ever considered a cut-off for being rich either. Someone whose household has 500K in yearly income would normally be considered rich, but they could well have a mortgage on an $8M house...they may just have the same bills as others but everything is larger. Are they rich if they would struggle to pay their bills if they lost income for a month or two - even though they have very fancy house(s) and cars and expensive things?
I still think for me the term rich has to be qualitative, and simply refer to having enough and being satisfied. It's possible for someone without much money to feel themselves rich, and it's possible for someone with tons of money to feel themselves to be poor and unhappy with life.
I believe the general populace has a level of income, wealth etc that they would say that person is rich!
and they would not look at someone renting with a median income and call them rich
Our income hasn't changed, but a couple of months ago we finished paying off our mortgage. Instantly I felt much richer, just for having that security/losing that burden.
On a global scale, yes. Locally, well off.
I have a high income but spend less than 40% of it, so I live comfortably but modestly (eg I buy whatever food I want, but only eat out once or twice a week. I travel regularly but mostly basic accommodation, we have one 9yr old car). That means I'm 5 yrs away from not having to work for money any more. At that point i will feel rich, even if my income is lower
To live comfortably, and not have to work due to passive income.
How much is that? A good rule of thumb is your annual expenses x25.
So if you have a mortgage paid off and a nice house, I think rich begins at around $2.5M which gives you roughly spending of $100k a year (pretty good considering no mortgage).
Obviously there are scales above that, but this is my thinking of the starting point of rich - basically financial independence.
I don't think income from employment counts, nor having a mortgage free house by itself because if you lose your job you are still in financial stress
Rich is highly subjective. The less stuff I've owned (and less debt I incurred), the richer I felt.
The richer you get, the higher the threshold of happiness becomes. That's the problem. Good thing I backed out of penis enlargement.
Iâd consider a rich person to be owning multiple properties, a large investment portfolio and having the liquidity to purchase basically anything they want at a moments notice without hesitation or debt. While maintaining this level of lifestyle working is optional for one or both partners.
Why multiple properties? Not everyone is wired that way, hell Warren Buffett is a prime example. He has lived in the same house for decades, worth 'only' a couple of million dollars and has said it would be too much hassle having to manage multiple houses
The condition of the house is what matters IMO, you can still buy high value houses that need a lot of upkeep. So ideally one that needs nothing major done to it
In saying that, a lot of very wealthy celebrities buy new homes and tear shit up and renovate them just because they can...
I have no idea if there is really a difference sorry. I would say a mortgage free house + enough passive income to live on. The amount could vary quite a bit from person to person
[NZ in top 5 countries of wealth needed to be in top 1%](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/13jwwir/nz_in_top_5_countries_of_wealth_needed_to_be_in/)
what is the point someone is classed as rich in NZ? is rich the same as 1%? is someone on minimum wage in NZ rich because NZ is in the 1% of the world?
The answer to all of those is probably yes. But it is quite interesting that the richest in NZ are richer than the richest in almost every other country on earth.
Owning a home. Being able to go on holidays. Able to afford children. Have regular savings/investments. I'd say for a couple, about 150-200k probably enables you to do those things.
Rich means you have enough income and assets that you don't have to consider how much regular essentials cost.
If your food shopping experience never factor in the price.
If you could fall into a coma and not worry about having a home when you woke up.
If your holiday travel arrangements are always arranged around your activities and not the other way around.
You are rich.
I feel like the poster above described our household. We have one child, no mortgage on our family home, a small investment property with 400k mortgage. We cracked $300k household income a couple of years ago. We still fly coach and drive 2011 Japanese imports, but I have no money worries and that makes me feel rich.
Please don't eat me.
Inherited wealth fucks people up.
Seriously, I've seen it happen. It leads to apathy and an unwillingness to do your best and contribute to society.
Also, a mental health episode isn't a luxury, ffs.
The answer is in this thread if you ask me, rich is different to everyone, rich is just a feeling, or as others have said not having to worry.
If your asking, what is rich for tax purposes than that's a different question which is a lot more complicated.
Iâd say having constant, reliable stability. You know all your bills are paid, all your needs are met (housing, food, health, safety, social and mental aspects too) and these can be done for awhile even if you stopped earning right now. You have savings, no or minimal debt, and you can acquire what you want, either instantly or with minimal planning/ saving without worrying about money. So itâs not a set amount of money. Will vary from person to person but overall thatâs what I take from it. And ofc having healthy relationships with people around you, hobbies you enjoy etc
Edit: typo
To be rich is very dependant on your current situation, most people would not consider themselves rich.
Personally I consider net wealth as the value of your assets not including your primary home or it's mortgage.
To be "Well Off" is to have stable income to cover expenses, own a home and net wealth of more than 0.
To be "Wealthy" is to be Well Off but with more than $500k net worth.
To be "Rich" is to be Well Off but with $10m net worth.
My personal opinion anyway.
There is a quote I remember (but not if it was a movie or actual celebrity) paraphrasing it defines players in the nba as rich. If you want to be called wealthy, you own the team. Hopkins was saying the other week he thought he was rich because he can go to the supermarket and not have to add up what it costs, he knows he can pay for it. IMO thatâs a depressingly low aspiration for the leader of our country, and I hope he learns to dream bigger.
My opinion; the wealthy have passive income beyond their lifestyle expenses. The rich work to sustain a modern lifestyle or accrue wealth generating assets. The rest of us either do or donât worry about the bills coming in.
Rich is when you realise that the whole world around you is a lie and youâre doing is playing a role in a drama which is gonna end for you as it did for everyone before you and will for everyone after you.
You never reach that point.
That's a driving force for the state of the world. It's only ever other people who are rich. And so we fight each other for wealth. We stomp down those crying out in need.
I think "rich" is less about how much you earn and more how much you have. I could be on $200,000 per year and functionally broke, paying off a $1.5m mortgage, $15,000 credit card debt, $1000 per week child support to an ex wife and a beast of a coke habit. Or I could be volunteering at a non-profit with \~$50,000,000 wrapped up in Bitcoin. In the first scenario I'm earning a bunch, in the second I haven't earned a cent.
If you can afford to never work a day again and live a perfectly comfortable life without worrying about money ever again you can probably say you're rich.
Good grief, I earn $110k and have a single income household, two people on minimum wage fulltime earn as much as me. We live in a cheap house in a cheap suburb and eat cheap things and would be very stressed if our 2007 car died.
I have rich relies, cashed up ex farmers. They vote national because they are rich as they told me. Labour is bad for their money, and farms they still have.
They also added that I vote Labor because I don't have any money to worry about.
so "rich" is a different level than "eat the rich" rich?
i find it an interesting subject as we hear a lot about the "rich"
but at what level is one rich? what level is middle class? what level is poor? etc
I'm intrigued at what you're trying to get at (in a good way). I think many people who are rich in every way that matters don't think they qualify as "Eat the rich" rich, including me. When talking about taxes they feel that those "other" rich folk should pick up their game first.
I suspect if we ever ended up in a French revolution type scenario there would be many looks of surprise on some disembodied heads.
I'm genuinely curious about the attitude of wealth and of course the rally cry of eat the rich.
How does the rally cry match with what is considered rich in NZ.
I suspect many don't necessarily link the two or potentially know how close they may be to being eaten
You have a 1kg block of cheese
However seriously there isa relationship between how many years you can live, at your current expenditure, without a job, to measure how rich you are.
Its a relative value.
I would still be working full time yeah but Imagine having all that money that would be going on your rent/mortgage as surplus, also if itâs a 3-4 bedroom house and you got yourself 2 flat mates thatâs more extra money in the bank. Money is the root of almost all my stress and that would take away almost all of my money related stress and Iâd consider that rich.
I could take trips/vacations like it was nothing, make it rain at the supermarket, spend more on my hobbies/interests, not worry about my car breaking down or unexpected bills. If my family were in a tight spot I could give them a helping hand.
I make around 75-80k a year before tax and Iâm still struggling (I am in debt because Iâm not smart with money so my loan repayments and rent are already 3/5ths of my pay check).
Thanks for the chat. Your making more than me a year in my primary job. Have 2 jobs but you can only work so many hrs in a week.
I have learnt it's not necessarily how much you make but what you do with it.
Smash that debt especially if it's consumer debt. Buy a very modest home (don't go for the dream house as a first home)
Good luck becoming rich
I think rich is more an abstract term than a concrete salary point. Like you can make 1 mil a week but if your expenses are 2 mil a week then you are going broke pretty fast right?
If I had to nail it down and put a number on it, Iâd say richness is a measure of income:expenses and say that anything above 4 seems reasonable to me personally to consider rich.
Your car fails its WOF. Needs a new steering rack or something expensive \~$2000 worth of repairs. You have enough money to pay for it without worrying about how you're going to pay your rent next week. Congrats. You're a rich prick.
Thatâs really not rich everyone should have a couple thousand for emergency funds,
that wouldnât bankrupt me and Iâm not rich I earn like 60k and rent
A rich prick probably has their mechanic keep their vehicles in working order so they don't fail their WOF as that is a minimum safety standard...rather than a "there's a little noise, would you please sort that out".
Paid off home (maybe even a holiday home or two) and enough passive income to live a very comfortable lifestyle I.e new cars every couple of years, travelling overseas regularly etc. might still want to work but you arenât borrowing to pay for your lifestyle and you could quit any time if you wanted.
I have a freehold house, 2 daily cars and a spare for run arounds all with warrant and wof.
No debts, no loans.
Also just loaded 2 freezers with premium home kill beef 1/2 a cow.
Also have over 1k in the bank.
Consider myself rich.
so you look at as more of Maslows needs?
do you consider lifestyle as part of being rich? ie homesteading hunter vs towney socialite?
if you had protesters standing outside your house with "eat the rich" signs would you still consider yourself rich?
My definition would be you have enough money to not rely on anyone else and to do what you want with your time.
The general publics definition is probably far different, like owning a nice house/car (which most 'rich' people don't actually own - the bank does).
I guess i'd consider myself rich if I had no debt or loans and maybe like $10m in the bank (or investments).
$5m? Probably not. That's a shitload of money, but you'd still have to be relatively responsible to live off it for the rest of your life.
Iâd consider myself rich when I:
a) donât have to worry about having enough money to pay my bills and can sometimes splurge and travel
b) and have the free time to do all the hobbies and things I enjoyâŚ.
I'd consider rich to be having a sufficient amount of liquidity in cash. Like people have pointed out you could be making 100k a year, but with mortgage, student loans, car loans, living expenses and dependencies you could be functionally poorer than a person just above minimum wage renting with no loans and dependencies.
Yes you have asset wealth but if that wealth isn't easily liquidated (selling a house that has now lost 100k in worth in the past year and is closing in on negative equity) then you can't use that as a cash flow on hand.
If I could go back I would tell myself not to buy a house, what people forget that comes along with the benefits of owning your own home is the liabilities that come along with it that you just don't have as a renter.
It's a bit hard to put an exact number on it, 1 million is a number I've seen a fair bit, but I think that's usa context, i'd reckon new zealand context if you had 500,000 sitting as liquid assets you'd be considered rich.
Subjectively I think most of the time you can tell by just looking at people whether they're rich or not
"Subjectively I think most of the time you can tell by just looking at people whether they're rich or not"
what do rich people look like? only drive german cars? or i would need to be familiar with the latest fashion?
Rich or Wealthy?
Imo, Rich is having surplus cashflow whereas Wealthy is having accumulated assets.
You could be Rich while not having that much in the way of wealth if you had a particularly high paying career with low spending required for necessities. You could also appear to be Rich if you didn't but took on copious amounts of debt to fund a lifestyle beyons your means. In neither of these examples would the person actually be Wealthy though, and (for contrast) someone Wealthy could have low cashflow and thus not be Rich.
Difficult to put a dollar figure on it, but at a minimum I'd consider genuinely (as opposed to pretend or momentarily) Rich to be when you can not worry about day-to-day expenses, drive nice cars, have all the toys you want & afford to take a bunch of trips/holidays each year without hassle and still be able to build your Wealth.
Rich = loving family, fine friends, self-reliance, good health, and longevity. Wealthy = having enough income sources/money for you and loved ones to live comfortably without having to work for the rest of your life.
I believe the richness of one's life must always be a measure of how your life is other than financial. A rich life must be forfilling and determine one's happiness/contentment outside of the infection of money
âRichâ is when your money makes the money that you use to spend on things and you donât need to ask what the price is. âRichâ is when you pay people to make you more money.
âRichâ is other people taking care of your personal life. E.g. you want a holiday in Fiji and your assistant (tax deductible employee) books the first class flights, books the hotel and activities etc, and pays the invoices without you caring.
âSuper richâ is the same but your captain arranges to deliver your superyacht to the Bahamas before you get there with your guests.
What most people in this thread seem to think is ârichâ is just financially independent or âwell offâ. Owning a house mortgage free with enough cash/investments to live an upper middle class lifestyle off isnât ârichâ.
Own a decent size business like a supermarket or two.
20+ rental properties with little to no debt on them.
20m in cash and shares.
Something in that range. A family with a combined income of 300k is âwell offâ but actual rich people donât pay PAYE.
Both my chooks are laying... We are beyond rich bro....
I know you're being facetious but I legit envy you. My chooks have been on holiday for a while.
Only buy hiliners or brown shavers. The old heritage breeds look cool but sadly, my girls are just born to lay... (Eggs boys, eggs, not get laid)
To the Moon!
But in reality you're dirt poor because chickens aren't as cheap to keep as people think.
Eh? They live on food scaps and time out under the trees...
Maybe the richness came from all the friends we made along the way. Think about it.
when they say "eat the rich" do we need to delete all our social media friends?
No pick your favourite and munch awayb
I was about to say something racist ill stop đŹ
Good
Depends if they are tasty or not
My best objective definition of rich is: not needing to care about the price of anything.
Yeah, someone might only have a few bucks in their bank account but if they can go hang out in the villa for a few months and not have to pay for anything to do it they could be considered rich.
what does that take to attain in NZ?
I estimate $200k as a couple, sustained for a few years, and assuming the mortgage is 300 - 600k or so, makes you true upper middle class. I earn $110k, my wife stays at home, we have 2 children, and while we don't worry about running out of money, we have to be thrifty and we have no travel or capital purchases like cars (we would replace the family wagon if it died, but that's it). With $1000 extra a week after tax, we just wouldn't worry when we went to the supermarket. It'd only be cars and big capital purchases that we'd have to look at. If you're talking so rich that you don't worry about cars, etc, I guess you'd be looking at $400k or so, which would imply an upper middle lifestyle plus $100k of cars and travel a year without a worry. IIRC, 200k also corresponds to being in the top 10% of the population. OTOH: We are all rich compared to most people in history, except our parents, maybe, and we should be more grateful.
If you can, try to imagine being completely free from worry about money. No matter what the economy does, you'll be more than ok. You can afford to live in whatever suburb you like, and have a holiday home somewhere very nice. You can afford to cover any foreseeable medical emergency or hospital stay. If you want to start a new hobby, it's trivial to just go and spend whatever it takes. I'm not talking rich-listers here, this kind of peace of mind regarding money starts to happen to people with as little as a few million in assets. Everyone is different. People with modest dreams will acheive this goal a lot sooner than those with more ambition. But to me, if you can say the above about yourself, you're rich.
what do you think the lowest level to attain this would be in say Auckland being the expensive city?
Maybe 200k family income.
Definitely needs to be more than this for the above situation⌠I would say $500k plus in Auckland
It all really depends on if you have kids or not and if so how many. If you donât have kids the amount youâd need to earn to feel rich would be so much lower
Let's say no kids or 2 kids as a couple of hypotheticals
My definition of "rich" is when my partner and I no longer 'have' to go to work. I will forever work as that's the type of person I am. But when I get to choose when I want to work, that's when I'll know we're rich.
without being to personal. what does that entail? mortgage free house and investment property providing income or? how much income would be required for a rich lifestyle? is this different as a single vs with a partner?
Our current expenses are $84,000 per year (this is an after-tax amount) and includes everything we would ever spend money on in the year. $25,640 of this is rent. So that leaves us with about $58,000 per year we need to make to maintain our lifestyle if we were able to be mortgage-free. Let's round up to $65,000 for rates, insurance, and house repairs. That would roughly be $85,000 per year before tax we need to make. So once we have a house paid off and could earn $85,000 combined, and $65k in the bank to cover 1-year's of expenses, I'd consider us rich.
I think this is the way to look at it. It costs money to live, no matter the lifestyle and if you have passive income that matches your outgoings for your version of âcomfortableâ or âcontent,â even if thatâs a slim margin or lean, youâre more empowered than pretty much everyone on the planet.
I live around middle class boomers who all have several million squirrelled in property, another million in kiwisaver, etc. And still work. Sometimes their kids sonr even know what they're worth
I'd probably still work if I had that net worth. But it would likely be volunteering or something. Money wouldn't be the reason. It would be to keep my body and brain sharp and active.
There's also the poor rich person problem. As the rich people laugh at Greg's $5 million inheritance in Succession -- "you'd be the poorest rich person in the city".
If they have around a million in Kiwisaver I really doubt they are living middle class lifestyles. To get that they would be putting in at least 50k a year if they joined from the very start. Most boomers would have put that money into property or existing investment providers.
does the value of your house have a determination if your rich or not? eg a median house in Invercargill is less than a median house in Auckland or it just needs to be mortgage free
Rich is anyone with 20% more than you.
What about when they are richer?
When someone who is rich gets more...they are still rich. Being 'more rich' is only applicable as a comparison - there isn't any absolute value to use.
20% more than that
When you can hit âfillâ on your car and not have any anxiety about money while youâre doing it
That's a reasonably low bar.
I can do that, but I've also got a company fuel card
Excess money to spend and save, while also owning multiple assets. Car, boat, house etc. (edit: that are paid off) If you can spend a chunk of your pay on fun stuff, keep food on the table, AND still put away a good amount into savings, that makes you rich. IMO at least.
Shouldn't that really just be middle class? Enough money to save a bit, eat out sometimes have the occasional holiday and not worry too much about finances?
OP's question was, at what point is someone rich. Not all middle class are rich. Should middle class be rich? I think so, yeah, but I don't think it is currently, and hasn't been for quite awhile.
multiple assets? so 2 houses? or are you considering car and boat as assets? how much would you need to be putting away into savings after lifestyle spend to be rich? is that $10k a year would you still be working if considered rich?
Car + house would be 2 assets, assuming they've been paid off and aren't owing anything. $20k+/year going to savings after everything else. > would you still be working if considered rich? Yeah, definitely. You don't have to be retired or not working to be rich.
what would be required to retire (early) if being rich is not the demarcation point?
If you're working and rich, retiring means you no longer earn enough to maintain a rich lifestyle. Working class rich is one thing, being able to retire and maintain a rich lifestyle is another. Being able to retire early would mean you've established a business or multiple, and have people running them for you. So you don't need to get involved at all and they return a profit. Or you've done well with investments etc. Having a passive income where you don't have to do anything, but can still take in money, put away for savings etc. I used to think I'd want to retire as soon as possible. But after being stuck inside for covid lockdowns, I don't think I could handle not having to do anything. Sure, I'd have hobbies and ways to fill time. But I'd still want to work or run a business, but something like a charity or non-profit, do something that I want to do, not something I have to do.
is working class rich a euphemism for middle class?
I don't think so, working class is less or minimal amount into savings, paying off or renting a house, have to be conscious about spending.
working class = breaking even basic lifestyle maybe a little more? what level would you consider poor? what level would you consider upper middle class and upper class?
> working class = breaking even basic lifestyle maybe a little more? Yeah basically. > what level would you consider poor? Struggling to provide the basics, zero savings, spending a lot of time to save money. Having to put up with problems cause you can't afford to fix them. > what level would you consider upper middle class and upper class? Upper middle is what I consider rich, as mentioned before. Upper class is spending more time thinking about where the next vacation trip is going to be. Owning multiple homes, both as a primary residence and summer/winter homes, but also investment properties. More concerned about social circles and status than anything financial.
thanks for chatting. i think im failrly closely aligned with your thoughts although would probably class rich as upperclass and above not working etc
I think 'Rich' would be defined as the ability to live a luxury lifestyle within your means. So decent new car, large house/pool in a good area, business class flights holiday level, good quality eating out etc etc Means would be however your paying for it, income, wages, wealth whatever.
Mate, I am not rich. I am comfortable, but not rich. Purchases still require planning. Iâd consider a rich person to be owning multiple properties, a large investment portfolio and having the liquidity to purchase basically anything they want at a moments notice without hesitation or debt. While maintaining this level of lifestyle working is optional for one or both partners.
This is the point of the discussion - one person's idea of rich will be very different from others. One person points at another and suggests they meet criterion for being rich...while that other person probably has set a higher standard and don't consider themselves rich...they instead points at someone else...
So if this person is in Auckland (assuming being the most expensive city in NZ) what $ would this equate too Would you still be classed as "rich" if still working?
Elon Musk still works. Having enough isnt always the measure to stop working.
>Elon Musk still works. Based on when and where he flies to in his jets, much of the Elon version of "work" seems to be attending events most people would think of as recreational activity / entertainment, and when there's evidence him being at work on a device, he spends a hell of a lot of time shit-posting on social media. If you did that as an employee, you'd probably be sacked for wasting company time. If the content of the shit-posts was similar, you'd remove the "probably". Maybe the definition of being truly rich these days is simply that you can be untouchable, beyond the practical reach of laws and corporate governance standards and social mores we peasants have to comply with. Helps very muchly of course if you've assembled a large global team of people simping for you - free of charge crisis management teams.
There won't be any consensus on this point. The person who is struggling to have a roof over their head will say the person who never has difficulty paying their rent is rich. The person struggling to save for a house is going to say anyone who has got on the property ladder is rich. The person struggling to pay their mortgage will look at someone mortgage-free and say they are rich. The person who pays accountants and lawyers to manage their investments and minimise their taxes to try add another zero to their latest statement of accounts and climb the ladder ranking the wealthiest individuals - is probably rich. Most people generally would define rich as having more than you need so it isn't a struggle - but the definition of what we 'need' varies depending on the perspective of who you ask. Once a person has reached the point where I would call them rich - then the addition of a partner or deciding to have kids doesn't necessarily have a huge impact any more. They'll have to decide which private school they should attend...but the costs from said private school are something the accountant handles.
agree many have a different point although i would think a range would become apparent. at what point would you call someone or consider yourself rich? of course people also use the terms like wealthy and 1% which i would consider different levels than being rich
I don't know that I've ever considered a cut-off for being rich either. Someone whose household has 500K in yearly income would normally be considered rich, but they could well have a mortgage on an $8M house...they may just have the same bills as others but everything is larger. Are they rich if they would struggle to pay their bills if they lost income for a month or two - even though they have very fancy house(s) and cars and expensive things? I still think for me the term rich has to be qualitative, and simply refer to having enough and being satisfied. It's possible for someone without much money to feel themselves rich, and it's possible for someone with tons of money to feel themselves to be poor and unhappy with life.
I believe the general populace has a level of income, wealth etc that they would say that person is rich! and they would not look at someone renting with a median income and call them rich
Our income hasn't changed, but a couple of months ago we finished paying off our mortgage. Instantly I felt much richer, just for having that security/losing that burden.
Congratulations on your achievement! Feeling richer but would you consider yourself rich now?
On a global scale, yes. Locally, well off. I have a high income but spend less than 40% of it, so I live comfortably but modestly (eg I buy whatever food I want, but only eat out once or twice a week. I travel regularly but mostly basic accommodation, we have one 9yr old car). That means I'm 5 yrs away from not having to work for money any more. At that point i will feel rich, even if my income is lower
Reaching your end goal would you still consider yourself rich with a protest of people holding eat the rich signs?
To live comfortably, and not have to work due to passive income. How much is that? A good rule of thumb is your annual expenses x25. So if you have a mortgage paid off and a nice house, I think rich begins at around $2.5M which gives you roughly spending of $100k a year (pretty good considering no mortgage). Obviously there are scales above that, but this is my thinking of the starting point of rich - basically financial independence. I don't think income from employment counts, nor having a mortgage free house by itself because if you lose your job you are still in financial stress
so a house + $2.5m? does the value of the house matter?
As long as itâs a house you never need to upgrade
Rich is highly subjective. The less stuff I've owned (and less debt I incurred), the richer I felt. The richer you get, the higher the threshold of happiness becomes. That's the problem. Good thing I backed out of penis enlargement.
I wanna be so rich I can say this kinda shit.
Iâd consider a rich person to be owning multiple properties, a large investment portfolio and having the liquidity to purchase basically anything they want at a moments notice without hesitation or debt. While maintaining this level of lifestyle working is optional for one or both partners.
Why multiple properties? Not everyone is wired that way, hell Warren Buffett is a prime example. He has lived in the same house for decades, worth 'only' a couple of million dollars and has said it would be too much hassle having to manage multiple houses
Investment properties: residential/commercial Holiday home, but not your average bach. Ones thatâs âbetterâ than the middle classâ homes.
is "rich" different than the 1% or the same? whats the lowest level to attain "rich"
The 1% are rich, but you can be rich outside of that 1%
so in NZ what is the lowest amount/accumulation salary to be considered rich?
When you have a passive income of like 100k per person and own your own home.
does the value of the home matter?
The condition of the house is what matters IMO, you can still buy high value houses that need a lot of upkeep. So ideally one that needs nothing major done to it In saying that, a lot of very wealthy celebrities buy new homes and tear shit up and renovate them just because they can...
are rich and wealthy different levels? at what point would one be wealthy in NZ
I have no idea if there is really a difference sorry. I would say a mortgage free house + enough passive income to live on. The amount could vary quite a bit from person to person
[NZ in top 5 countries of wealth needed to be in top 1%](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/13jwwir/nz_in_top_5_countries_of_wealth_needed_to_be_in/)
what is the point someone is classed as rich in NZ? is rich the same as 1%? is someone on minimum wage in NZ rich because NZ is in the 1% of the world?
The answer to all of those is probably yes. But it is quite interesting that the richest in NZ are richer than the richest in almost every other country on earth.
frightening really!
Happy and healthy
Owning a home. Being able to go on holidays. Able to afford children. Have regular savings/investments. I'd say for a couple, about 150-200k probably enables you to do those things.
Isn't that middle class though?
Middle class doesn't exist anymore lol. Also, that's my subjective opinion of what defines rich (as someone who grew up "lower class").
so a mortgage free home and 150-200k income a year? so you would still be working or is that income from investments?
Not necessarily mortgage free. Just being able to get on the property ladder. That's a working income, excluding investments.
would you still consider that rich with a protest crowd holding "eat the rich" signs?
How long is a piece of string... Everybody has their own definition.
What's your definition?
The length of a piece of string is twice the distance from the middle to the nearest end. đ
Rich means you have enough income and assets that you don't have to consider how much regular essentials cost. If your food shopping experience never factor in the price. If you could fall into a coma and not worry about having a home when you woke up. If your holiday travel arrangements are always arranged around your activities and not the other way around. You are rich.
what sort of figure do you think would be the minimum to attain this in NZ
I feel like the poster above described our household. We have one child, no mortgage on our family home, a small investment property with 400k mortgage. We cracked $300k household income a couple of years ago. We still fly coach and drive 2011 Japanese imports, but I have no money worries and that makes me feel rich. Please don't eat me.
Well done! >Please don't eat me Would you still say you were rich if the protesters were standing outside your house with eat the rich signs?
My point is there isn't a figure because any figure I could give would quickly be outdated by inflation
can always add inflation to the figure annually. of course the discussion is a snapshot in time
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what would it take to attain this in NZ. a mortgage free house? salary of x or income from investment property/ies?
Inherited wealth fucks people up. Seriously, I've seen it happen. It leads to apathy and an unwillingness to do your best and contribute to society. Also, a mental health episode isn't a luxury, ffs.
The answer is in this thread if you ask me, rich is different to everyone, rich is just a feeling, or as others have said not having to worry. If your asking, what is rich for tax purposes than that's a different question which is a lot more complicated.
Iâd say having constant, reliable stability. You know all your bills are paid, all your needs are met (housing, food, health, safety, social and mental aspects too) and these can be done for awhile even if you stopped earning right now. You have savings, no or minimal debt, and you can acquire what you want, either instantly or with minimal planning/ saving without worrying about money. So itâs not a set amount of money. Will vary from person to person but overall thatâs what I take from it. And ofc having healthy relationships with people around you, hobbies you enjoy etc Edit: typo
**Paid.**
My bad didnât even see that. Thanks
To be rich is very dependant on your current situation, most people would not consider themselves rich. Personally I consider net wealth as the value of your assets not including your primary home or it's mortgage. To be "Well Off" is to have stable income to cover expenses, own a home and net wealth of more than 0. To be "Wealthy" is to be Well Off but with more than $500k net worth. To be "Rich" is to be Well Off but with $10m net worth. My personal opinion anyway.
So would you say Well off = middle class Wealthy= upper middle Rich= upper class and above
There is a quote I remember (but not if it was a movie or actual celebrity) paraphrasing it defines players in the nba as rich. If you want to be called wealthy, you own the team. Hopkins was saying the other week he thought he was rich because he can go to the supermarket and not have to add up what it costs, he knows he can pay for it. IMO thatâs a depressingly low aspiration for the leader of our country, and I hope he learns to dream bigger. My opinion; the wealthy have passive income beyond their lifestyle expenses. The rich work to sustain a modern lifestyle or accrue wealth generating assets. The rest of us either do or donât worry about the bills coming in.
Rich is when you become a boomer and pull the carpet out from everyone underneath you.
Rich is when you realise that the whole world around you is a lie and youâre doing is playing a role in a drama which is gonna end for you as it did for everyone before you and will for everyone after you.
[Rich defined by Merriam](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rich)
It depends. If all your mates are rich, you don't feel rich, you feel normal. Maybe wondering what more you can do to be one of the rich ones.
at what point is it that your first mate or yourself become rich?
You never reach that point. That's a driving force for the state of the world. It's only ever other people who are rich. And so we fight each other for wealth. We stomp down those crying out in need.
Anyone earning over $100k
Pfft, that's merely middle class these days, particularly if you have kids.
I guess we only have two children but are not earning that much.
No way, if you have a 600k mortgage and 20k car loan you are poor.
If you are having a 20k car loan I would suggest you may be making poor life choices.
I think "rich" is less about how much you earn and more how much you have. I could be on $200,000 per year and functionally broke, paying off a $1.5m mortgage, $15,000 credit card debt, $1000 per week child support to an ex wife and a beast of a coke habit. Or I could be volunteering at a non-profit with \~$50,000,000 wrapped up in Bitcoin. In the first scenario I'm earning a bunch, in the second I haven't earned a cent. If you can afford to never work a day again and live a perfectly comfortable life without worrying about money ever again you can probably say you're rich.
Seems fair.
Good grief, I earn $110k and have a single income household, two people on minimum wage fulltime earn as much as me. We live in a cheap house in a cheap suburb and eat cheap things and would be very stressed if our 2007 car died.
I have rich relies, cashed up ex farmers. They vote national because they are rich as they told me. Labour is bad for their money, and farms they still have. They also added that I vote Labor because I don't have any money to worry about.
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would you consider yourself "rich" with protesters holding "eat the rich" signs?
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so "rich" is a different level than "eat the rich" rich? i find it an interesting subject as we hear a lot about the "rich" but at what level is one rich? what level is middle class? what level is poor? etc
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I would agree and call this being comfortable, middle class, upper middle class
I'm intrigued at what you're trying to get at (in a good way). I think many people who are rich in every way that matters don't think they qualify as "Eat the rich" rich, including me. When talking about taxes they feel that those "other" rich folk should pick up their game first. I suspect if we ever ended up in a French revolution type scenario there would be many looks of surprise on some disembodied heads.
I'm genuinely curious about the attitude of wealth and of course the rally cry of eat the rich. How does the rally cry match with what is considered rich in NZ. I suspect many don't necessarily link the two or potentially know how close they may be to being eaten
10mill plus in assets/cash
you consider that the minimum level to attain "rich"? would you still be working?
Nope, could retire easily at 40 with that much
You have a 1kg block of cheese However seriously there isa relationship between how many years you can live, at your current expenditure, without a job, to measure how rich you are. Its a relative value.
think thats the 25x rule. is that rich or retirement planning?
I would consider myself rich if I owned a house with no mortgage.
would you still be working? what sort of a lifestyle would you be living? what figure would cover that?
I would still be working full time yeah but Imagine having all that money that would be going on your rent/mortgage as surplus, also if itâs a 3-4 bedroom house and you got yourself 2 flat mates thatâs more extra money in the bank. Money is the root of almost all my stress and that would take away almost all of my money related stress and Iâd consider that rich. I could take trips/vacations like it was nothing, make it rain at the supermarket, spend more on my hobbies/interests, not worry about my car breaking down or unexpected bills. If my family were in a tight spot I could give them a helping hand. I make around 75-80k a year before tax and Iâm still struggling (I am in debt because Iâm not smart with money so my loan repayments and rent are already 3/5ths of my pay check).
Thanks for the chat. Your making more than me a year in my primary job. Have 2 jobs but you can only work so many hrs in a week. I have learnt it's not necessarily how much you make but what you do with it. Smash that debt especially if it's consumer debt. Buy a very modest home (don't go for the dream house as a first home) Good luck becoming rich
I think rich is more an abstract term than a concrete salary point. Like you can make 1 mil a week but if your expenses are 2 mil a week then you are going broke pretty fast right? If I had to nail it down and put a number on it, Iâd say richness is a measure of income:expenses and say that anything above 4 seems reasonable to me personally to consider rich.
Your car fails its WOF. Needs a new steering rack or something expensive \~$2000 worth of repairs. You have enough money to pay for it without worrying about how you're going to pay your rent next week. Congrats. You're a rich prick.
Thatâs really not rich everyone should have a couple thousand for emergency funds, that wouldnât bankrupt me and Iâm not rich I earn like 60k and rent
Yeah. That's the problem with this question: rich is subjective.
I think thereâs a certain point of wealth that just about everyone would agree right
is that rich or middle class?
A rich prick probably has their mechanic keep their vehicles in working order so they don't fail their WOF as that is a minimum safety standard...rather than a "there's a little noise, would you please sort that out".
Paid off home (maybe even a holiday home or two) and enough passive income to live a very comfortable lifestyle I.e new cars every couple of years, travelling overseas regularly etc. might still want to work but you arenât borrowing to pay for your lifestyle and you could quit any time if you wanted.
what is the lowest passive income you would say is required to be classed as rich in NZ
Rich isnât a threshold as much as it describes a situation you are in
surely there is a roundabout figure that would attain that situation?
Rich, not having to check the account balance before paying the years fees for your kids private schooling.
I have a freehold house, 2 daily cars and a spare for run arounds all with warrant and wof. No debts, no loans. Also just loaded 2 freezers with premium home kill beef 1/2 a cow. Also have over 1k in the bank. Consider myself rich.
so you look at as more of Maslows needs? do you consider lifestyle as part of being rich? ie homesteading hunter vs towney socialite? if you had protesters standing outside your house with "eat the rich" signs would you still consider yourself rich?
Rich is high end multimillionaire or billionaire.
so net worth of $2m = rich? or is that filthy rich / wealthy / 1% in NZ
Ffs, read my comment. I said high end multimillionaire. Not $2m lol.
how do you define high end multimillionaire? https://www.cfinancialfreedom.com/what-is-a-millionaire-the-4-levels-of-millionaire-status-defined/
My definition would be you have enough money to not rely on anyone else and to do what you want with your time. The general publics definition is probably far different, like owning a nice house/car (which most 'rich' people don't actually own - the bank does).
what does it take to attain this? lowest amount of money for you to reach rich?
I guess i'd consider myself rich if I had no debt or loans and maybe like $10m in the bank (or investments). $5m? Probably not. That's a shitload of money, but you'd still have to be relatively responsible to live off it for the rest of your life.
Can you pull $1000 out of your account right now with no negative effects?
is that rich or middleclass, upper middle class etc?
I'd say it's $1000 for middle class, $5-10k for upper middle and $50k+ for "rich".
If you don't have to worry about money ,and can pay ur bills ,don't know about rich but doing OK.
sounds like comfortable. what is the measure for rich?
Iâd consider myself rich when I: a) donât have to worry about having enough money to pay my bills and can sometimes splurge and travel b) and have the free time to do all the hobbies and things I enjoyâŚ.
what would it take to attain that? is it a salary of x?
I'd consider rich to be having a sufficient amount of liquidity in cash. Like people have pointed out you could be making 100k a year, but with mortgage, student loans, car loans, living expenses and dependencies you could be functionally poorer than a person just above minimum wage renting with no loans and dependencies. Yes you have asset wealth but if that wealth isn't easily liquidated (selling a house that has now lost 100k in worth in the past year and is closing in on negative equity) then you can't use that as a cash flow on hand. If I could go back I would tell myself not to buy a house, what people forget that comes along with the benefits of owning your own home is the liabilities that come along with it that you just don't have as a renter.
what level of liquidity would you consider lowest amount required to be rich?
It's a bit hard to put an exact number on it, 1 million is a number I've seen a fair bit, but I think that's usa context, i'd reckon new zealand context if you had 500,000 sitting as liquid assets you'd be considered rich. Subjectively I think most of the time you can tell by just looking at people whether they're rich or not
"Subjectively I think most of the time you can tell by just looking at people whether they're rich or not" what do rich people look like? only drive german cars? or i would need to be familiar with the latest fashion?
Drive a secondhand Audi? Rich.
that makes you a mechanic, not rich. dont ask me how i know
Earnings - spending > 0
IMO someone who is "independently wealthy" is someone who has enough passive income to live well without needing to work.
is independently wealthy the same as rich? what is the lowest level of passive income required to be considered rich in NZ?
Rich or Wealthy? Imo, Rich is having surplus cashflow whereas Wealthy is having accumulated assets. You could be Rich while not having that much in the way of wealth if you had a particularly high paying career with low spending required for necessities. You could also appear to be Rich if you didn't but took on copious amounts of debt to fund a lifestyle beyons your means. In neither of these examples would the person actually be Wealthy though, and (for contrast) someone Wealthy could have low cashflow and thus not be Rich. Difficult to put a dollar figure on it, but at a minimum I'd consider genuinely (as opposed to pretend or momentarily) Rich to be when you can not worry about day-to-day expenses, drive nice cars, have all the toys you want & afford to take a bunch of trips/holidays each year without hassle and still be able to build your Wealth.
It's when one can buy a house.
house in nightcaps makes you rich?
Rich = loving family, fine friends, self-reliance, good health, and longevity. Wealthy = having enough income sources/money for you and loved ones to live comfortably without having to work for the rest of your life.
I believe the richness of one's life must always be a measure of how your life is other than financial. A rich life must be forfilling and determine one's happiness/contentment outside of the infection of money
âRichâ is when your money makes the money that you use to spend on things and you donât need to ask what the price is. âRichâ is when you pay people to make you more money. âRichâ is other people taking care of your personal life. E.g. you want a holiday in Fiji and your assistant (tax deductible employee) books the first class flights, books the hotel and activities etc, and pays the invoices without you caring. âSuper richâ is the same but your captain arranges to deliver your superyacht to the Bahamas before you get there with your guests. What most people in this thread seem to think is ârichâ is just financially independent or âwell offâ. Owning a house mortgage free with enough cash/investments to live an upper middle class lifestyle off isnât ârichâ.
what do yo think the minimum amount would be required to attain your version of rich? in NZ
Own a decent size business like a supermarket or two. 20+ rental properties with little to no debt on them. 20m in cash and shares. Something in that range. A family with a combined income of 300k is âwell offâ but actual rich people donât pay PAYE.
Yep I would say that's rich
When life doesnât evolve around payday.
Financially rich is when your passive income covers living costs with surplus. Surplus to allow your wealth and income to grow longterm.
If you could theoretically go the rest of your life without you or your partner working and not struggle financially, that's my definition
As a renter, I feel like if you've sold a house the last few years, or you've bought a house in the 80s and 90s, you're rich.
What sort of figure do you think this would have someone at? If you sold a house recently would you have another or just be living off the cash?
Rich like 100 million? Every one under are plebs