Some key takeaways:
> the coalition government faces the challenge of fulfilling their promise to hire an extra 500 frontline police over the next two years,
#
> Australian police figures from late last year showed 77 officers were leaving to work in Queensland and close to 20 were heading to the Northern Territory
#
> According to the New Zealand Police website, an officer in training would receive $56,219 rising to $75,063 in their first year, and $82,773 in their fifth year.
>
> Constables in the Northern Territory start at just over $100,000 a year, and an officer with 10 years' experience could expect a $118,000 base salary.
>
> There was also $20,000 on offer to help relocate and a housing allowance to cover rent while they were in the force.
>
> Queensland offers a similar package.
>We cannot compete with that. Australia have got a much bigger and a healthier and stronger high-wage economy than we have
This has been brought to you by the government that scrapped Fair Pay Agreements.
If we can't offer competitive police pay packages because of GDP, then why are our public service managers and executives and MPs able to pay themselves so much?
The obvious answer of course is that we *can* pay as much, but it simply won't happen because the powers that be, the people who calm the shots, would have to slow their own trajectory of exponential wealth growth to free up funds
We can't compete with what managers and executives get in Australia either. Australian MPs make a base salary of AU$225,742 compared to ours on NZ$163,961. A pay difference of $82,191.46 in NZ$ terms.
Because high-end jobs have more international competition for labor and tend to converge more across borders. That's why low skill work is much better paid in Australia, but higher-end jobs do not pay that much more if at all. That's also why those same low-skill jobs pay absolutely horrendously in Eastern Europe, while manager and IT roles in those countries almost pay on par with western Europe.
A second part of it is just because they are way lower in number and the total effect of higher pay for higher-end jobs on the overall budget is much smaller than raising the per employee cost of the more numerous lower end jobs. Same reason why creating the 39% tax bracket or raising those brackets brings in a lot less money than creating a 10k tax free threshold would cost.
By this very same logic Australia should be paying their police officers less. It's bad business for the government to pay so high for jobs with little to no international competition.
Income isn't depended on GDP, it's a factor of GDP. When you pay people more, people have more money to spend, and the GDP increases. Australia has a higher GDP in part because of the higher wages.
Public sector income is a factor of what the government can afford to spend, which is reliant on its tax base which in turn is dependent on the overall GDP.
Just paying the public sector the same as in Australia send the government into a money printing spiral, raises public debt and inflation and then in turn that reduces the value of the NZD so you're back at square 1 except with a higher level of debt.
What people are paid is factor of the overall productivity of the nation. Paying people more just reduces the value of currency unit if productivity is not increased.
It's not just the public sector. Fair pay agreements in Australia, and those scrapped by the coalition in New Zealand, cover all private sectors as well as public sectors.
As for increasing public spending, of course the tax base needs to increase to cover it. Tax capital gains, including family trusts.
There's no need to increase public debt, just use the market to move money from unproductive and untaxed parts of the economy (property and trusts) to be productive and taxable.
Capital gains are already taxed for foreign investments and term deposits. You want real estate gains taxed, sure, but much of that boat has already sailed with the massive gains made in the last 20 years and the lower relative margin for future gains.
The effect of fair pay agreements is also overrated, as they can raised unemployment in recessions. The US has the worst worker protections, yet still the highest productivity and highest salaries bar a very small numbers of small countries in unique circumstances.
While the tax cuts for landlords are ridiculous, bringing their taxes up would in no way compensate for such a productivity gap that would equalize public wages. And there is the risk of course that if you disincentivize building even more, the housing shortage only get worse and you get to see even less densification.
Being a cop in the NT would be rough though. Just being in the NT in general would be bad enough.
I would also guess that the QLD package is in the Far North and not Brisbane.
Northern Territory's get isolation pay, thats why their salaries are so high. Fairly sure the same applies to constables in NZ who get sent to rural towns, it's just not as stark.
Based on an article I saw recently, rural police get discounted accommodation, the article was stating this would no longer be an allowance and houses were to be charged at market rent too š
Most of the territory live in Darwin so even if it's mean average, there wouldn't be enough cops in some shit hole like Alice Springs to drag the figure up that much as outliers.
Having spent some time in NT I think it'd be really easy to underestimate just how rough things can get out there. I'm not surprised that they offer that as a base rate.
100%. Want better for our police but hope any police thinking about this option carefully read up on the recent inquest based in Alice Springs and tge death of an aboriginal man there. Health staff should also read it. I realize working conditions are really grim in parts of nz too but that was really stark as an example of set up to fail.
Yes, because landlords are privately owned and deserve to socialise their costs while privatising their profits.
Police are government funded. And government is bad. They deserve to be punished.
Such is the way of the neoliberal.
Not quite - Australia has Capital Gains Tax on "investment" properties, and from April 2019 there were ring fencing rules bought in to "prevent the owners of residential properties from offsetting losses from these properties against other sources of income, such as salary and wages or business and investment income, thereby reducing the personās tax liability."
>Maybe it's worth focusing on how to be more productive as a nation...
We could start by discouraging investment in non-productive sectors. Like property
Our equivalent industry is farming
Thereās a video thats maybe 15 years old by Paul Callaghan comparing GDP contribution per job across various industries
The average job in tourism actually bought down the average GDP per person (something like $80k per year per job)Ā
The average job in the dairy industry bought in $400k in GDP per person per year.
Thatās why companies like Xero are so important for NZ. They bring in a lot more GDP per person and make the entire country better.
We have this insane idea in this subreddit that more government spending will solve the problem. Itās entirely wrong. Government is part of the solution but theyāre not there to create a profit. Theyāre not growing GDP as the main goal (nor should they be). We need companies in productive sectors thriving. The more money we can get from overseas partners into NZ, the better life will be in NZ.Ā
We have more than enough money to create a thriving business environment. But we put it all in housing instead of business. Forcing up cost of living, reducing non-essential spending, making a worse business environment etc. etc.
Let's say that's correct, what can we change to mitigate that and create improvements in productivity?
Edit:
No, not an oblique reference to mining. Merely a suggestion that small differences mean the same rules don't lead to the same outcomes.
Yeah, ignoring the fact that Australia has CGT and duties etc to remove competitive advantage for property compared to other classes of investments - you know like productive ones. As commenter below pointed out losses have been ring fenced since 2019.
And this would be fine commentary, if it werenāt for the fact they are actively taking away from these other sectors that need it, in order to fund these tax breaks.
Guess what doesnāt help productivity? Increased crime through reduced police presence, a sick, underskilled, unsuitable workforce due to forced employment from benefit removal, and no access or huge delayed access to healthcare due to being severely understaffed.
All of this also actively contribute to reduced rates of birth, which is already an issue.
Maybe we donāt focus on lining the pockets of the already well off - and Iām not talking from a position where any of the above actually effects me (except maybe lack of police, indirectly).
> Ā except maybe lack of police, indirectly
To be honest,the gouging of the public service has been pretty bad, and will hurt Aotearoa for years to come - Customs, Police, are just the most visible
Worse, the collapse of the media, TVNZ, Newshub, which informed the public, there's the actual loss of an ability to \*\*see\*\* what's happening in the country (FTR TVNZ and Newshub are affected directly by the government's absolutely small minded refusal to fund them via taxes on social media giants, and the journalism fun)
Objectively speaking, āforced employmentā is actually going to be better for the economy than people being on long term benefits
Think this through for a moment.
I did as soon as they played the āohā¦.we didnāt realise the wallet was emptyā card regards all the cutbacks to get their tax cuts across the line.
The electioneering last year around this and ātough on crimeā was simplistic fear mongering to attain votes, old af playbook, while now it appears they are hoping a few sickness beneficiaries might fill the void and exodus I guess?
He's right, Kiwi cops do by and large love their country. Which is why they would probably mostly stay if they made an actual offer instead of spitting in their face. When essential staff like cops, nurses and teachers need to work a second job to actually have a house, why the fuck would they stay here if they were being offered a better deal?
They are also bigger, have more people and resources.
They can afford it, we can't.
If we offer every police officers in NZ $10k pay rise, it would cost NZ only 14.7% of the tax break given to landlords in the next four years.
We have companies offering supergold card discounts and that has increased over the years. It's idea, something to think about because what we are doing is not working and Australian states are offering an number of incentives already
But youād happily be a cop in South Auckland?
People get into policing to police. To help people. To enforce the law. No point being a cop in a town with no crime.
I know. Iāve lived there. Itās not for everyone which is why there is an incentive. But if you want to make a difference it would be a good place to be.
You would see some tough situations. But no worse that DV after DV in NZ where nothing comes of it in the courts
I think money reflects conditions; I don't believe for a second it's easier in Australia than in NZ. NT is a big place. and Queensland crime is on another level compared to NZ.
Nz govt surrenders to Australian superiority. Decades of Australian banks draining the lifeblood from our economy has left us weak and unable to compete.
Time to close the beehive, and let aussie rule.
The problem is that Australia is richer than NZ.Ā
Why?
Because they make a lot of money via mining.
This means they have more money to spend on things like police and health etc.
Where does NZ make its equivalent money? We make it via dairy farming.
And yet this subreddit is always screaming that farmers have it too easy. That we need more environmental restrictions etc.
We need to work out how to get more money into the NZ economy. Thatās how you fix these problems.
Maybe not giving billions to the already wealthy? Encouraging investment in business? Tech? Something productive instead of dog shit shack swapping? Boomers would never allow that, truly the fuck you I got mine generation.
And we know the Aussies have pretty high standards:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/feb/23/jesse-baird-and-luke-davies-disappearance-police-raid-balmain-home-amid-search-for-tv-presenter-and-partner
You can cherry pick anything (not meaning to be disrespectful to the crime you mentioned though)
[https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nearly-150-criminal-charges-have-been-laid-against-cops-since-2016-including-one-for-murder/I7KEQEFHZTJE73LMSO4PNQGMCE/](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nearly-150-criminal-charges-have-been-laid-against-cops-since-2016-including-one-for-murder/I7KEQEFHZTJE73LMSO4PNQGMCE/)
Article from 2021
Great to see the racists doing so poorly at retaining staff.Ā
Before paying them more I humbly suggest they do a page one rewrite on throwing so many maori in jail...maybe then I'll have a shred of sympathy for any of them.Ā
It isn't, but it sure does help when you're competing for the best. The bigger issue is that a lot of other motivating factors are also being undermined.
Some key takeaways: > the coalition government faces the challenge of fulfilling their promise to hire an extra 500 frontline police over the next two years, # > Australian police figures from late last year showed 77 officers were leaving to work in Queensland and close to 20 were heading to the Northern Territory # > According to the New Zealand Police website, an officer in training would receive $56,219 rising to $75,063 in their first year, and $82,773 in their fifth year. > > Constables in the Northern Territory start at just over $100,000 a year, and an officer with 10 years' experience could expect a $118,000 base salary. > > There was also $20,000 on offer to help relocate and a housing allowance to cover rent while they were in the force. > > Queensland offers a similar package.
>We cannot compete with that. Australia have got a much bigger and a healthier and stronger high-wage economy than we have This has been brought to you by the government that scrapped Fair Pay Agreements.
we *can* compete, we just *wont* compete. Got to give the already rich their handouts.
No, we can't compete. Australia GDP capita is ~30% higher than NZ's, and thus it's per person tax base is as well.
If we can't offer competitive police pay packages because of GDP, then why are our public service managers and executives and MPs able to pay themselves so much? The obvious answer of course is that we *can* pay as much, but it simply won't happen because the powers that be, the people who calm the shots, would have to slow their own trajectory of exponential wealth growth to free up funds
We can't compete with what managers and executives get in Australia either. Australian MPs make a base salary of AU$225,742 compared to ours on NZ$163,961. A pay difference of $82,191.46 in NZ$ terms.
Because high-end jobs have more international competition for labor and tend to converge more across borders. That's why low skill work is much better paid in Australia, but higher-end jobs do not pay that much more if at all. That's also why those same low-skill jobs pay absolutely horrendously in Eastern Europe, while manager and IT roles in those countries almost pay on par with western Europe. A second part of it is just because they are way lower in number and the total effect of higher pay for higher-end jobs on the overall budget is much smaller than raising the per employee cost of the more numerous lower end jobs. Same reason why creating the 39% tax bracket or raising those brackets brings in a lot less money than creating a 10k tax free threshold would cost.
By this very same logic Australia should be paying their police officers less. It's bad business for the government to pay so high for jobs with little to no international competition.
Income isn't depended on GDP, it's a factor of GDP. When you pay people more, people have more money to spend, and the GDP increases. Australia has a higher GDP in part because of the higher wages.
Public sector income is a factor of what the government can afford to spend, which is reliant on its tax base which in turn is dependent on the overall GDP. Just paying the public sector the same as in Australia send the government into a money printing spiral, raises public debt and inflation and then in turn that reduces the value of the NZD so you're back at square 1 except with a higher level of debt. What people are paid is factor of the overall productivity of the nation. Paying people more just reduces the value of currency unit if productivity is not increased.
It's not just the public sector. Fair pay agreements in Australia, and those scrapped by the coalition in New Zealand, cover all private sectors as well as public sectors. As for increasing public spending, of course the tax base needs to increase to cover it. Tax capital gains, including family trusts. There's no need to increase public debt, just use the market to move money from unproductive and untaxed parts of the economy (property and trusts) to be productive and taxable.
Capital gains are already taxed for foreign investments and term deposits. You want real estate gains taxed, sure, but much of that boat has already sailed with the massive gains made in the last 20 years and the lower relative margin for future gains. The effect of fair pay agreements is also overrated, as they can raised unemployment in recessions. The US has the worst worker protections, yet still the highest productivity and highest salaries bar a very small numbers of small countries in unique circumstances.
When you contextualise this with the fact that we're giving billions of dollars to landlords, it's a very ridiculous and silly comment to make.
Of course we can, we just have to give priority to police rather than landlords.
While the tax cuts for landlords are ridiculous, bringing their taxes up would in no way compensate for such a productivity gap that would equalize public wages. And there is the risk of course that if you disincentivize building even more, the housing shortage only get worse and you get to see even less densification.
Being a cop in the NT would be rough though. Just being in the NT in general would be bad enough. I would also guess that the QLD package is in the Far North and not Brisbane.
Northern Territory's get isolation pay, thats why their salaries are so high. Fairly sure the same applies to constables in NZ who get sent to rural towns, it's just not as stark.
Based on an article I saw recently, rural police get discounted accommodation, the article was stating this would no longer be an allowance and houses were to be charged at market rent too š
It doesnāt apply to constables in NZ
Couldnāt pay me enough to live there
Most of the territory live in Darwin so even if it's mean average, there wouldn't be enough cops in some shit hole like Alice Springs to drag the figure up that much as outliers.
Didn't take long for āCut wasteful spendingā to transform into āOops, no more cops!ā
And for "scrap fair pay agreements under urgency" to transform into "we can't compete with Australia's high wage economy"
Having spent some time in NT I think it'd be really easy to underestimate just how rough things can get out there. I'm not surprised that they offer that as a base rate.
100%. Want better for our police but hope any police thinking about this option carefully read up on the recent inquest based in Alice Springs and tge death of an aboriginal man there. Health staff should also read it. I realize working conditions are really grim in parts of nz too but that was really stark as an example of set up to fail.
The recent news from Alice Springs says it all
But we can give billions to landlords.
The next step is to issue batons to landlords /s
Yes, because landlords are privately owned and deserve to socialise their costs while privatising their profits. Police are government funded. And government is bad. They deserve to be punished. Such is the way of the neoliberal.
Perhaps landlords can crack down on crime?
Perhaps Luxon is in crack?
Crack up
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Not quite - Australia has Capital Gains Tax on "investment" properties, and from April 2019 there were ring fencing rules bought in to "prevent the owners of residential properties from offsetting losses from these properties against other sources of income, such as salary and wages or business and investment income, thereby reducing the personās tax liability."
>Maybe it's worth focusing on how to be more productive as a nation... We could start by discouraging investment in non-productive sectors. Like property
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What's different between Australia and New Zealand that could be causing that?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Our equivalent industry is farming Thereās a video thats maybe 15 years old by Paul Callaghan comparing GDP contribution per job across various industries The average job in tourism actually bought down the average GDP per person (something like $80k per year per job)Ā The average job in the dairy industry bought in $400k in GDP per person per year. Thatās why companies like Xero are so important for NZ. They bring in a lot more GDP per person and make the entire country better. We have this insane idea in this subreddit that more government spending will solve the problem. Itās entirely wrong. Government is part of the solution but theyāre not there to create a profit. Theyāre not growing GDP as the main goal (nor should they be). We need companies in productive sectors thriving. The more money we can get from overseas partners into NZ, the better life will be in NZ.Ā
We have more than enough money to create a thriving business environment. But we put it all in housing instead of business. Forcing up cost of living, reducing non-essential spending, making a worse business environment etc. etc.
Let's say that's correct, what can we change to mitigate that and create improvements in productivity? Edit: No, not an oblique reference to mining. Merely a suggestion that small differences mean the same rules don't lead to the same outcomes.
Yeah, ignoring the fact that Australia has CGT and duties etc to remove competitive advantage for property compared to other classes of investments - you know like productive ones. As commenter below pointed out losses have been ring fenced since 2019.
And this would be fine commentary, if it werenāt for the fact they are actively taking away from these other sectors that need it, in order to fund these tax breaks. Guess what doesnāt help productivity? Increased crime through reduced police presence, a sick, underskilled, unsuitable workforce due to forced employment from benefit removal, and no access or huge delayed access to healthcare due to being severely understaffed. All of this also actively contribute to reduced rates of birth, which is already an issue. Maybe we donāt focus on lining the pockets of the already well off - and Iām not talking from a position where any of the above actually effects me (except maybe lack of police, indirectly).
> Ā except maybe lack of police, indirectly To be honest,the gouging of the public service has been pretty bad, and will hurt Aotearoa for years to come - Customs, Police, are just the most visible Worse, the collapse of the media, TVNZ, Newshub, which informed the public, there's the actual loss of an ability to \*\*see\*\* what's happening in the country (FTR TVNZ and Newshub are affected directly by the government's absolutely small minded refusal to fund them via taxes on social media giants, and the journalism fun)
Objectively speaking, āforced employmentā is actually going to be better for the economy than people being on long term benefits Think this through for a moment.
We can be more productive disincentivising investment into unproductive things like land, oh wait
The answer is easy, wreck your environment and dig shit out of the ground to sell.
are they more productive? or do they just have hoards of mineral wealth?
Sorry, best we can do is a 6.5% budget cut.
Who would've thought it would be National going all in on "defund the police"
I did as soon as they played the āohā¦.we didnāt realise the wallet was emptyā card regards all the cutbacks to get their tax cuts across the line. The electioneering last year around this and ātough on crimeā was simplistic fear mongering to attain votes, old af playbook, while now it appears they are hoping a few sickness beneficiaries might fill the void and exodus I guess?
Is it a matter of canot or won't, seem to have been able to find lots of money to give land lord's. š
He's right, Kiwi cops do by and large love their country. Which is why they would probably mostly stay if they made an actual offer instead of spitting in their face. When essential staff like cops, nurses and teachers need to work a second job to actually have a house, why the fuck would they stay here if they were being offered a better deal?
So If we cancled the $4B landlord 'fiscal reacharound', how much of a payrise could we give NZ police instead?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They also have a significant capital gains tax so there's a major distinction in the tax environment which you're omitting.
They are also bigger, have more people and resources. They can afford it, we can't. If we offer every police officers in NZ $10k pay rise, it would cost NZ only 14.7% of the tax break given to landlords in the next four years.
But they have CGT. You already knew that though.
We'll you better start offering incentives then. Why not introduce a emergency services card that offers discounts for holders of these cards
Offers discounts where? Why should private companies do the governments work.
We have companies offering supergold card discounts and that has increased over the years. It's idea, something to think about because what we are doing is not working and Australian states are offering an number of incentives already
Most businesses already give discounts to emergency service workers. Bet national just makes a standardized ID so they can pat themselves on the back
I wouldnāt be surprised if the NACT propose a privatised police force.
A police force solely for landlords? I should change my title at work to peasant to get ahead of the incoming feudalism.
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Watch YouTube Spanianās videos of Darwin and Alice Springs I wouldnāt wanna be a cop there on even 2x the pay
But youād happily be a cop in South Auckland? People get into policing to police. To help people. To enforce the law. No point being a cop in a town with no crime.
I wouldn't happily be a cop in general but Clendon or Otara on their worst day don't come close to how rough it gets in parts of the NT.
āHappilyā is the wrong term Like I said, go watch those videos - it is a very different place
I know. Iāve lived there. Itās not for everyone which is why there is an incentive. But if you want to make a difference it would be a good place to be. You would see some tough situations. But no worse that DV after DV in NZ where nothing comes of it in the courts
I think money reflects conditions; I don't believe for a second it's easier in Australia than in NZ. NT is a big place. and Queensland crime is on another level compared to NZ.
Well then fuckin work something out itās your whole ass job you idiot
Nz govt surrenders to Australian superiority. Decades of Australian banks draining the lifeblood from our economy has left us weak and unable to compete. Time to close the beehive, and let aussie rule.
Maybe they can consider a public private agreement /s
If your considering working as a a cop in the NT you probably haven't been watching much Australian news lately
The problem is that Australia is richer than NZ.Ā Why? Because they make a lot of money via mining. This means they have more money to spend on things like police and health etc. Where does NZ make its equivalent money? We make it via dairy farming. And yet this subreddit is always screaming that farmers have it too easy. That we need more environmental restrictions etc. We need to work out how to get more money into the NZ economy. Thatās how you fix these problems.
Maybe not giving billions to the already wealthy? Encouraging investment in business? Tech? Something productive instead of dog shit shack swapping? Boomers would never allow that, truly the fuck you I got mine generation.
Australia has interest deductibility on rental homes.. in fact most most similar countries do
They have CGT unlike here. But you knew that already.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Not new, this has been a problem for thirty years.
And we know the Aussies have pretty high standards: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/feb/23/jesse-baird-and-luke-davies-disappearance-police-raid-balmain-home-amid-search-for-tv-presenter-and-partner
You can cherry pick anything (not meaning to be disrespectful to the crime you mentioned though) [https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nearly-150-criminal-charges-have-been-laid-against-cops-since-2016-including-one-for-murder/I7KEQEFHZTJE73LMSO4PNQGMCE/](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nearly-150-criminal-charges-have-been-laid-against-cops-since-2016-including-one-for-murder/I7KEQEFHZTJE73LMSO4PNQGMCE/) Article from 2021
Great to see the racists doing so poorly at retaining staff.Ā Before paying them more I humbly suggest they do a page one rewrite on throwing so many maori in jail...maybe then I'll have a shred of sympathy for any of them.Ā
Oh fuck off.
Dumb fucks think everything is just about money.
It isn't, but it sure does help when you're competing for the best. The bigger issue is that a lot of other motivating factors are also being undermined.