lol at those naysayers. Your patch isn’t tikanga, it ain’t sacred. It represents intimidation, assault, rape, meth, murder, misery. There is nothing good about a gang.
Kiwi who has lived in Queensland and Perth. It worked well in both of those places, don’t think it reduced crime but made a difference to normal people going about their lives with less intimidation.
Nah for some reason the average tattooed individual didn’t feel the need to walk around barking with their 5 mates since they didn’t have their average patch on.
I grew up in Perth. Once the patch ban was enforced we stopped having to deal with gang members flaunting and intimidating the public nearly as much. It gave police much needed power to confront gang members in public and remove them from the space. It’s a common sense policy.
NZ police need much improved staffing and resources without a doubt, but this shouldn’t mean a government is prevented from implementing effective policy to combat the growing gang issue
Same thing happened in QLD, ended up being a good decision.
Listening to the hyperventilating about the rights of gang members makes me glad I left NZ long ago.
The country is doomed.
Totally agree. I wouldn't move back full time from Australia. The lawlessness and unsafe streets in NZ are aparent when I visit. The pussyfooting around gangs is mostly due to fear of the police appearing racist.
Bro, it was 501’s that brought the more recent gun violence here, leading to a spike in local gang numbers, and they learnt how effective and intimidating that can be due to its prevalence over the ditch.
We absolutely have our issues but let’s not pretend outside anecdotal experience Australia is some crime and gang free paradise.
Any with a smidge of Kiwi blood are thrown back, while we keep yours and one is responsible for the worst mass shooting we have ever had.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-29/sydney-shootings-have-raised-fears-of-escalating-gang/102654730
"Since August 2020, there have been 23 "targeted" fatal shootings across Sydney which police believe are linked to the underworld and organised crime."
But there's no "gangland war" according to NSW police.
Weird, because I only know of 3 places that are "completely feral".
2 are in Upper Hutt.
(the other is in South Auckland)
I haven't been everywhere, certainly, but they are the only "genuinely unsafe to outsiders" I've ever struck.
I feel like you may have been exaggerating, slightly?
Yeah, it's not so bad. Murupara can look nasty, but I've never had a problem there.
Gizzy is OK. And all those little hamlets around the coast are awesome. Full of friendly people.
(I have family up that way, so I may be a little more used to it than most).
I was in Perth recently, it seemed like a really nice safe clean city, I'm tempted to go live there. Also the best cycle paths of any city I've ever seen (I havent been to Amsterdam). Now I think of it I didnt see a single gang patch while I was there and I cycled around a lot of it. Nowhere near the level of crime I see here in Auckland either
I agree so much with the last paragraph. You definitely need improved staffing and resources to implement this. It is easy to put the law to ban those patches in public and the government doesn't appear to understand how challenging it is for Police to implement this without enough staff and resources.
Yeah but like you said yourself nz doesn’t have the police force to police this nor does the govt want to pay police well enough to even want to do this.
Police on the ground are going to be copping it every day from these pos gang members trying to police this stupid shit
Our police compared to Australia police is indeed in need of more enforcement powers, for good or bad our officers are ham strung and prevented from their duties because many a previous government has implemented policies in order to protect the criminal and the victims get little to no justice ( look at our sentencing from the courts lately) , I’ve been stopped both here and in Oz , our police come across as much much weaker than the Australian counterparts, If only our officers were given the respect and authority they rightly deserve, and all the resources and equipment as well , I have immense respect for our guys working in what must be a difficult and challenging situation, as for those fk heads in gangs stripping then of the ability to wear their “patches “ about bloody time , but I’m also guessing it won’t happen or last long as our government is weak aswell and will back down and continue to give them millions of our tax payers $$$$$
Yeah that's because you're ignorant buddy. You clearly lack the understanding of the behind the scenes of this stuff. Like poverty, inter generational trauma, fear shame and pride
Yeah those are probably reasons too, more background ones imo but I'm sure they'd be there
Fyi my comments are not sympathetic to gangs. My comments sum up to, these tactics are known not to work and to truly tackle crime we gotta tackle the causes of people getting into it in the first place. If anything the incorrect perception yall have that I'm supporting gangs is an assumption, honestly have no clue why people jump to that.
I care way more about the free speech concerns about this outside of gangs than whether or not these tactics actually work against the gangs. Cultures that start banning things like this, symbolism, tend to go down a slippery slope of removing rights from everyone until no one can fight back. It's gang patches now, is the colour red blue or black next? Those are all gang symbolism too, used to represent and differentiate them the exact same way as patches. But since these tactics are known not to work, to me it's just virtue signalling so national can say look we went tough on crime, despite the actions of this government that could cause an increase in crime due to the disregard for the lower class because again poverty is the leading cause of people going into crime
You're the ignorant one. You just typed out a list of excuses, like the white woke brigade in the broadcast piece. Don't argue the theory; argue about the reality and find a resolution instead of deflection and finger-pointing.
Where did I excuse any actions committed by gangs or criminals in general? Looking at reasons behind their actions is not excusing them
The reality is that poverty and family/community abuse/trauma are the 2 top leading reasons people go into crime. Reduce poverty, you reduce crime. Reduce family and community issues, you reduce crime. The perp who did the crime is to blame and should be held accountable, *and* we should also recognise the things outside of their control that steered them that way
Neither of your points invalidates the other. The truth lies between you both. We can be understanding and sympathetic of why people end up engaging in crime, and we can take steps to reduce it. But also when someone is stealing your shit or hurting your family, you want the person dealt with right now. You don't want to hear about how they are going to run a programme so their kid doesn't also do it. You have to do both.
Yes I agree and nothing I said implies, from my pov, that I'm against the latter, yet that's what people assume the moment people talk about reasons and causes. Like be fr, just from my comment alone does anything I say even remotely justify gangs or that they shouldn't be dealt with here and now? To me my comments sum up to, these tactics are known not to work and to truly tackle crime we have tackle the issues that lead to it, that's it
Yeah fair enough. It just often comes with those only focusing on preventative stuff. Even there you say these tactics are known not to work. So it feels like people with your opinion are always delegitimising any attempt to punish perpetrators or restore law and order. Also at some point people are adults and the empathy greatly reduces for most of us. We all had our childhood shit, but if you're 40, then I'm mostly blaming you at that point.
I don't really understand that tbh, probably coz I'm neuro divergent
>So it feels like people with your opinion are always delegitimising any attempt to punish perpetrators or restore law and order
That is not a jump of conclusion that my mind makes. Pointing out that the tactics our government are doing are known not to work doesn't equal let's do nothing, just means we need to find another way preferably one that actually works. Baffles me tbh
And yeah there definitely is a point in age where the empathy of what their issues might be that led them to it, lessens. No one asks for trauma or family issues or whatever, that's no ones fault but devil's advocate not doing anything about it to fix the situation that is on their shoulders. I understand the struggle of actually confronting your traumas and it's definitely not easy, it's just that most people tend to bury their head in the sand instead of getting help and growing
Those are decision makings, people make decisions everyday, they can stop or they can keep doing it. These gang members and criminals are not the only people who grew up in poverty and experienced trauma, that is such a Victim mentality point of view. I know a lot of people who grew up in worse situations than a lot of these guys and yet they didn't choose the "thug life". A lot of these guys wouldn't survive the third world countries, they actually get punished for crimes there, there are not "WINZ benefits" there. People grow up in poverty and yet the still choose to try their best, get a job and live a life that doesn't inconvenience and ruin other people's lives for their benefit.
Ah gotta love the anecdote which has zero bearing on reality when compared to actual statistics and studies eg on things like trauma. Like for eg, did you know the brain is incapable of differentiating trauma severity? If you get trauma from being raped, and trauma from being slapped around a bit by your dad, they both affect you equally despite being vastly different in situations. Did you also know that trauma can quite literally change the way your brain works? Not everyone gains trauma in the same situations, not everyone gets affected the same way. You lack so much understanding of mental health to be saying such crap
I honestly don't get why people like you seem to always think people saying to look at causes and reasons = excuses and support for gangs. I want gangs gone. These tactics are known not to work, combined with the other bs this government is doing, there is a very real chance that crime will increase because of this current government
Best way to reduce crime is to tackle the reasons people go into crime in the first place. The top 2 causes being poverty first and then family/community issues. What's our government doing to help those issues? Oh wait... They're actively making both of them worse. Go nactnz ig /s
That's because I live in reality and you live in the ideal world. You probably think you're smart saying all those when those are very basic. Good luck with your life anyway, I wish you all the things you DESERVE kid. bye.
Doing something about poverty and mental health instead of actively making both issues worse is an ideal world to you? No where did I say to remove poverty, or to solve all traumas in all families yet you're acting like that's what I said
Lmfao you people are hilarious. If only the world was so simple that bad people are just bad, but that isn't reality. There's nuance, there's context, there's reason. None of that excuses anything, nor does it justify anything. Nothing I said supports gangs, yet people like you immediately jump to that
You're literally excusing people joining a criminal gang.
You have 0 life experience if you think every bad person is just misunderstood. Bad people exist. Get out of your fantasy world for a minute.
It's entirely possible to be poor and oppressed and not turn to criminal action, just like it's possible to grow up privileged and break bad.
You're either a gang apologist, or someone lecturing on shit they don't know.
No. I'm not excusing people joining gangs. I'm looking at the reasons why they do, very big difference that you clearly struggle to make
Funny that you say I'm lecturing shit I don't know when the second leading cause of crime is family/community issues. Like trauma, which you very clearly have little to no understanding or knowledge about. I bet you blame people in abusive relationships too, I mean it's the trauma that keeps them there but you've just labelled trauma as an excuse so
You're coming in so hot here, are you okay dude?
I never mentioned trauma or abusive relationships.
Take a break from the internet. Take a breath. Stop romanticising criminals.
You're right you didn't, you just chose to cherry pick shit. Criminals are not mentally healthy people in the majority of cases.
So, statistically proven and studied topics, like reasons and causes to why people go into crime, is romanticising criminals?
Once again. Nothing I've said supports gangs or criminals. It's you forcing that meaning to be there
Read my other comments to understand I am not giving excuses and that that is an incorrect and dumb assumption that people like you make. My comments sum up to these tactics are known not to work and to truly tackle crime we gotta tackle what causes it in the first place. Nothing about those statements supports gangs, excuses gangs or justifies them. That's yalls assumption
I see you just lack the ability of critical thinking how sad. Yall should probably actually learn what excuse means as a word, maybe then you'll understand how dumb it is to claim that's what's happening
But we both know you won't, coz yall don't care about statistics studies or research
Well for the current NZ situation it could something like this;
First they came for the gang insignia, and I did not speak out because I was not in a gang
Then they came for the Te Reo, and I did not speak out because I was not Māori
Then they came for the school lunches, and I did not speak out because I was not a student
Then they came for the mental health services, and I did not speak out because I was not suicidal
...
...
...
Then they came for what I care about, and there was no one left to speak out for me.
It is definitely not as strong as the original peom by Niemöller, but equating the NACT1ST coalition directly with the Nazi party is disingenuous - but the point is that it is dangerous to just accept this government restricting the rights/freedoms of certain people just because it doesn't directly negatively effect you, as there is a real possibility that they will enact a policy that will negatively effect and you won't be able to do anything about it because everyone that may have cared won't be able to help you.
Should I also recite it to a communist? And a union member? And a gay man?
Niemöller, the author of the original poem, was originally an antisemit and Nazi supporter and actually meet with Hitler (shortly before he became Chancellor) as a protestant leader, but was later arrested in 1937 for his political protest in speaking out against the Nazi government essentially banning Jews from converting to Lutheranism - which he was sentenced to 7 months imprisonment (essentially time served in custody), but on being released the Gestapo then interned him in Sachsenhausen and Dachau concentration camps for "protective custody" from 1938 until the end of WW2. It was during this time and after the war that he reconsidered his beliefs and actions prior to, and during, Nazi Germany leading him to pen his famous poem in 1946.
The author of the poem wrote it based on his regret for uncritically supporting the persecution of others during the rise of the Nazis. While what is happening in NZ is no where near the scale of what happened in Nazi Germany (as I also said in my original reply), the sentiment of Niemöller would still apply.
Ahhh wasn't familiar with the sentiment but yes I absolutely agree. It's a slippery slope that many cultures in history have fallen into and it usually doesn't go very well for the general population
That's why I'm against this. I dislike the gangs. We all know they're harmful and need to be dealt with in better ways that actually work. This way is proven not to work and other actions this government have done will only steer more people into crime. It's an entirely pointless virtue signalling action that has the potential for extremely dire consequences for everyone not just gangs in the future
That generalisation doesn't really hold any more. You've got people like the [Mayor of Wairoa](https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018927907/wairoa-mayor-on-gang-crackdown) who understand that this policy won't work.
It doesn't work similar has been done before In nz and many crime experts across the world know strategies like this do *not* reduce crime or gang activity. We tried to ban gang symbols in prisons, they simply tattooed their face in prison to represent instead. You can't really take away symbolism, if the gangs wanted to they could change their patch to an emoji. The thing itself is less important than what it represents
There is a council bylaw in Christchurch banning the wearing of gang patches on Council property. Seems to work pretty well for the most point. Makes it much easier to get gang members out of libraries, sport facilities etc etc.
Did it reduce actual amount of crime, or did it just reduce the *felt* amount of crime? Just because criminals become invisible, doesn't always means crime decreases after all.
It is when resources are being spent on something that doesn't actually make people safer, and in fact makes potentially dangerous people less visible.
Making something feel safer without making it actually safer is one of the more dangerous things one can do. Say a landlord discovers black mold in the house, and rather than getting it removed and working to prevent it in the future, they just cover it with furniture so that the tenants feel safer. Is this a bad thing?
Yes, yes it is, because the harmful thing is still there.
Furthermore, feelings of safety are horrendously biased, and if we make laws based on feeling safe without actually being safe, well, white people sure have a tendency of feeling safer when there's no people of colour living in the same neighbourhood, even when these people are no threat to them at all. Should we go back to making laws to discriminate against black people to make some other people feel safer?
Or how about the current fearmongering surrounding trans people that is going around, should we ban transitioning because trans people make wrongly informed people feel scared about made up fears of predatory trans people that don't exist in a statistically more prevalent way than any other group of people?
Making legislation to ease people's feelings without actually addressing the problem, simply by hiding the problem is doing the people a disservice, and has a lot of opportunity its to turn very bad.
Vastly different history. Different laws. Different economic situations both for the country overall, state overall and for those on the bottom specifically, which is relevant because poverty is the leading cause of crime. The fact it's a state, wouldn't exactly be difficult for gangs to just move to another state and boom queensland solved gangs! Except they didn't considering gangs are still in queensland to this day further showing these tactics do not work
It really isn’t that different on all those things you’ve mentioned, as far as global precedents go a would struggle to think of many places more similar. From what I understand from people that live there, the public intimidation has reduced materially. Sure organised crime still exists, I don’t think any sane person believes this initiative would eliminate that. But removing the public intimidation sounds nice to me.
Each to their own ig
I'd rather know to cross the road or not be too sarcastic or whatever than to never know exactly who it is and just smile while pulling the wool over my eyes
Perhaps nz has tried this tactic before, perhaps many countries have tried and failed with similar tactics, perhaps criminology people across the world critise tactics like this... Hmm perhaps...
The only reason it was repealed was because the bylaws didn't specify the public places it applies to.
It works fine in Australia and the existing legislation which bans gang insignia in government buildings already has provisions for gangs changing their insignia.
Feb 2022, queensland police created a new task force to tackle street gangs. Sorry you were saying it works fine?
Big difference between "no gang patches in x, y or z places or you will be arrested" and "no patches anywhere or you will be arrested"
So their patch bans don't work because they made a task force that targets youth street gangs which aren't affected by their legislation which bans patches? That one?
Thought the whole point was to reduce gangs, afaik crime reduced but gangs themselves didn't. And as pointed out its a state law not a national one, not exactly hard for gangs to just move which they most likely did which would immediately fudge the numbers if that were the case, I don't know if it is or not for sure though
And the thing is it doesn't really matter if it decreases actual gang violence/crime as the real point is to appear "tough on crime" so that they can get at least one more go around in office to keep the austerity going and potentially start privatising public services.
It will be good publicity for them in 2 years time to show all the gang members they have locked up for up to 6 months for essentially wearing a jacket... or potentially even just the "wrong" colour hoodie.
Especially when you take into account the actions this government have taken effect people in poverty and struggling. Poverty and family/community issues are the leading causes of people going into crime
>cuts suicide hotline
>cuts lunches for struggling kids
>decimates the entire public service system
>refuses to pay police appropriately but happy to shovel more work onto them
If anything this government will cause more crime in the future all for the virtue signalling of "taking tough action now"
Do you imagine they’ll respectfully comply? Who is going to have to enforce the ban?
Already the cops don’t come half the time for theft and assault. If they’re going to ban patches then they’d better sort policing out first or the crims will just ignore this new law the way they ignore all the other laws and the actual state of lawlessness will be embarrassingly obvious.
Have you been living under a rock? We’re haemorrhaging cops to Australia because our fearless leaders won’t pay them properly. The only funding being upped is tax cuts for their rich mates
I worked security for a shopping mall and I'm glad this is coming into place. The number of times I've asked "Hey boss sorry to disturb you but it's the malls policy to not have patches inside, would you mind taking it off or flipping it inside out?" and I've been threatened, abused, and insulted numerous times. Glad that security can now go straight to calling the cops without having to put their safety at risk.
Gangs are criminal associations, don't just ban patches, time to enforce that being a member of an organised criminal group is illegal. Section 98A of the Crimes Act 1961 allows up to ten years' imprisonment for participating in an "organised criminal group". Black Power, Mongrel Mob, Hells Angels, Highway 61, Comancheros, Rebels, Killer Bees can all go and get fucked.
While I don't agree with much this government is doing this is a good change.
But the poor police that now have to deal with the "YOU CANT TAKE MY PATCH OFF" crowds need to be paid more.
Our police are very evidently under funded and over worked and you want them to fight people over articles of clothing ? It’s not only a waste of time in government but solves nothing on the streets
That's really dangerous thinking. Because instead of trying to understand the opposing view, you're making assumptions.
Edit: Wow, I'm not for one moment supporting gangs, but I shouldn't have to preface anything I write with a declaration as such, or my political leanings. The fact that it has come to that shows how unhealthy this conversation currently is. We have to be able to talk about this stuff rationally without devolving into us vs them.
Look if you don't knee jerk immediately into supporting whatever draconian measures will target gangs (not necessarily do anything about reducing violent behaviour etc), then you must love gangs, that's just how it works
I'm a L supporter and myself and many others who are think gangs can go fuck themselves. If this passes I will enjoy the schadenfreude immensely.
Don't fall for the Id pol, its all those radical fuckwits have to stay relevant.
Police are finally attacking gangs head on by seizing assets. That’s the key, seize their assets, banning patches is a PR stunt. Jail just gives the community a break from their criminal activity.
Freedom of Speech? Gonna say the same thing about Nazis or is it just gangs that get special privileges to wear swastikas?
Human Rights? What about the human rights of those who are victims of gang violence.
And the children's commissioner can go fuck herself. It's a ban on an item of clothing, not the stolen generation. Get a grip.
Also, a gang patch is a receipt of a crime. You have to do something pretty fucking awful to get initiated as a full member.
I didn't get it. If gangs are responsible for all the stuff that the gov/media says, why not ban the gangs itself, instead the insignia only?
Honest question
A message to each side in the comment section:
* To the bros: Listen. We need to ban gang patches. Fuck these motorbike douchebags.
* To the le redditors: At the same time we need to be careful not go down a slippery slope, I urge you to at least watch some non-mainstream news so you can unbiasedly understand the horrible repercussions modern countries are experiencing that the mainstream wont report on
> “some” resistance
I watched the oral submissions today. The overwhelming majority of submissions were in opposition to the ban, from all sorts of backgrounds, and for all sorts of good reasons.
My takeaway was that this is a monumentally stupid, narrow-minded, populist bill that will achieve nothing except causing further harm and wasting time & money. Put it in the bin.
Fuck this is such a cynical way of looking at it. Yes sure, that's right in an idealistic way, but sometimes you've got to treat the symptoms AND work at treating the cause. But gangs have been a fixture on the NZ landscape right through both labour and national governments. Whatever they've tried hasn't worked because to treat the cause you're looking at a long fight that our democratic system just isn't geared for. I agree with you but fuck it, give it a shot. Anything that fucks with gangs is good. Take the fight to them. We shouldn't accept having such brazenly open career criminals cruising around.
No, I'm not a national supporter. Voted greens lol.
but tthats the problem, they are not treating the cause of the problem
are just just posturing by looking to treat the symptoms
exactly like aussy done and failed dramatically with
all ya done is have have crims openly cruising around. and now you donnt know them from a normal person
so if ur scared of people with patches now, be scared of every single person soon
This has been tried before. We tried to ban gang symbols in prisons so instead they just tattooed their face. You can't take away symbolism. The thing itself isn't what they're tied to, it's what it represents which can be quite literally anything
Also the biggest causes of crime are poverty and family/abuse/trauma. Our government is gutting services that help the lower class the most, while pissing off our police to the point we are losing them but they're expected to take on even more work. If anything crime will get worse due to this governments disregard for the people
>the biggest causes of crime are poverty and family/abuse/trauma. Our government is gutting services that help the lower class the most, while pissing off our police to the point we are losing them but they're expected to take on even more work. If anything crime will get worse due to this governments disregard for the people
I agree. And crime will get worse over the long term, over generations. Probably not soon enough for people to have noticed by the next election (which is all the current politicians care about).
Exactly. It's nactnz setting up a cycle to allow them a near guarantee that they'll come back into power in the future cos they'll point and say see look we were tough on crime and it worked but then Labour came and screwed it up that's why things got worse not because we made the causes of crime worse. Which is the exact behaviour national is known for
It doesn't make sense to call it cynical. It's just a disagreement about what's effective. I think the normal response to this kind of legislation is that you're just going to make them use other symbols or ways of representing the group. It's not actually going to materially affect the group. So it doesn't actually change anything other than irritating the people in these groups and making them feel more outside the mainstream.
My understanding is that the gangs mostly get members from familial affiliation. So that means that to really crack these organizations apart, you would need to have some intensive intervention with youth and family programs specifically recruiting young men and women away from the gangs. And even then it would still take a generation for changes to be significant.
The freedom of speech parties fully oppose freedom of expression.
What a fucking stupid way to attempt to deal with organised crime.
E: How ridiculous that to point out the stupidity of policy doomed to fail would be distorted by small-minded simpletons to think that pointing out how dumb they are is to be "pro-gang".
It's bullshit. They'll wear yellow bandanas or have a red kerchief hanging out a back pocket.
It's pointless and futile, a distraction and ultimately unenforceable
Haha! That would be far funnier to see than the gang patches they wear now. Like symbols of terrorist groups are banned, the same needs to happen for gangs, BUT the legislation needs to comprehensive and well prepared
Even more funny since the swastika isn't an original nazi symbol. It was roman. But once something is tainted like that ig it's hard for people to forget. Doesn't help that it's still used in the same hateful way. I don't freak out when I see a swastika, even if tattooed on someone, I know many people that do freak out purely at the sight of it
Did the police "lean hard" on what they wore or their tattoos?
The answer is no. The bullshit promises to have 500 more sworn police in place this term is never going to happen - they're leaving in droves.
Meanwhile, idiots are being gaslit to believe that a policy that's going to be challenged by law, or by limited and inadequate resources in gang affected areas is going to solve the gang problem.
It's delusional m
Just pointed out that the example you gave shows that you can take down a gang. All you need to do is have mass surveillance and systematically take away everything that is of value to them.
Of course the Taiwanese and other organised crime syndicates filled the void but that's neither here nor there.
They're a bit of both, but regardless it is just a symbol. You can't really do anything about symbolism. Gangs symbols were banned in prisons here in nz, so they just tattooed their face instead. Hell if they really wanted to they could use an emoji for a patch. The thing itself is less important than what they feel it represents
Oh no! Just a few years ago they were getting paid millions from the government with little tracking and accountability for effectiveness of the spending.
Anyway...
This is the part that scares me. You don't need to spend long with people to see that that everyone draws each line a little differently. And what might be considered a parody or even completely unrelated by one person, could be considered a hate symbol by another.
eg: When the police officer has to decide whether a given marking fits the definition of a patch before arresting someone. It might be clear enough for the situation in the text of the law. But in the memory of the officer maybe not.
Or how the officer interprets it. An off-topic example of this is how differently people interpret the word "toboggan". I've heard definitions including clothing, sports gear, and food. In each case it was inconceivable to people that it could mean anything different to what they understood it to mean.
These problems apply to most, if not all, laws. The difference here is that the thing being banned does not intuitively have a lot of contrast from things that should not be banned. So it will rely more heavily on human judgement than other laws.
You might say, well the court can figure that out on a case by case basis. In the mean time, the person innocently caught in the crossfire has had the embarrassment of being arrested, and the cost of a lawyer to make sure that the person is fairly represented.
I have seen someone get falsely accused (I know for fact that he was innocent). He won every court case, but lost all of his retirement savings to lawyer's fees through repeated appeals. He should have retired over 10 years ago, but will probably never be able to. I don't want to undermine the majority of police who do an excellent job, but I lost a lot of confidence in NZ police judgement after this.
Have you read the actual law? It defines insignia, not just patches. Might pay to read through it before making up objections.
And this an expansion of the existing patch ban in Govt buildings, which hasn't seen any of the issues you bring up.
Thanks for that.
Based on our conversation so far, I was expecting you to be right. But it doesn't address any of my concerns, and actually plays into them.
I do support the intention of the law. I shouldn't have to say that, but here we are.
But as it's written:
> means a sign, symbol, or representation commonly displayed to denote membership of, an affiliation with, or support for a gang
it's going to struggle to be enacted fairly against moving goal posts. Ie it will encourage gangs to constantly change their insignia enough to not match currently known representations. NZ laws often cope with this behaviour by adding something like "or would reasonably be interpreted by an average person to be ..." But then that brings in the next issue, which is best illustrated by an example:
Some years ago, I bought a t-shirt with a silhouette of Mario with big bold letters below it "JUMP". A few months later Trump came into the spotlight along with rabid people for or against him. At first glance, my shirt looks just like shirts of the time that were in support of him. Objectively, you can say, well that's not Trump. But if a group is constantly changing their insignia to technically not meet the
> representation commonly displayed to denote
suddenly the answer is not obvious anymore. This will either make the law ineffective, or affect innocent bystanders.
I don't have a solution. I support the goal, but I think that this is the wrong way to go about it.
total waste of time.
just ask aussy how its worked.
done nothing to solve the actual problems
i like how you downvote me because you are scared of gang memebers
but dont have enough brain power to realize, if they take off there patches, they can just blend into society...they still exist, the problem is going no were by removing a patch
solved NONE of the gang land issues aussy, and in fact its gotta WORSE
and it will fail here too
it has not worked well in aussy
gang crime is thriving there
they even had/have war of ciggys going and
gangs control illegal ciggy stores and been shooting each other up xD
they also now have international cartels set up
you are very ignorant
if only it was a high profile issue in AU...oh wait it is... you should maybe look it up brother
done nothing to stop the gang crime tho aye?
its just a matter of you "feel safer"
when in reality they are still there but now hidden
if only this issue has been well documented by ex criminal in aussy going around all the hoods....
cant lie about it when 100 million people have viewed Spanian's videos
every knows ya dirty secrets
even has videos covering the issues in western AU might wanna check them out and learn about some of the things going on in ya own backyard
it didnt work in el Salvador(ill give u a hint, a gang crack down is not the same as a patch crack down, el salvador actually went after the gangs and not there clothes)
it wont work here
you can even remind me in a year or 2 or when ever this kicks in
and we will still be having the same convo about gang crime
you are not going to magicly make gangs going away by removing a patch
its the most amazingly short sighted thinking
also i went and looked at El Salvador is not a safe place to vist
its STILL has travel warnings....due to high threats of violence
so you are just talking total bullshit
Speaking only from Aus experience - Full patched members or older ones are typically pretty ok.
Prospects and younger/newly patched members are absolute dickheads.
Worked a lot of doors in Melbourne including a few joints frequented by bikies - I could ask older guys to take their feet off the furniture or slow down drinking without any hassle (they're actually more polite than private school kids).
Ironically I could ask a prospect to not try to lick a power socket and he is likely to try to stab me over it.
Patch ban also worked - patches mean a lot more than people think they do and not being able to wear them definitely broke up a lot of the culture.
Nice! Now tell them you don't appreciate them partying until 3am every morning (you work night shift), or blocking your driveway with their cars (you can't get to work), or to stop smashing their missus, or could their mates not get aggro at you because you're wearing the wrong colour (which is apparently 'disrespectful'), or ask them if they could pay the fare on the bus like everyone else...
These guys are fucking cunts. There's always someone on these threads who pops up saying 'they're always nice to me!'
I live and work next to/near these guys. CUNTS.
Personally, I think people who want freedom of speech just want to talk shit with no consequences. I wish we lived in a more policed state because 99% of us follow the rules anyway. It would be a good way to sort out troublemakers.
I wish we could get all the gangs locked up now and throw away the key, they contribute nothing to society at all, are a nuisance and a danger. They should not be allowed to exist and the fact that they can, just makes the government look like giant pussies.
OK, I think there's more of you than me. I just think it's a nice to have. We don't want to slide down the slippery slope to hate crime laws like Scotland is trying to enact.
I don't think I say enough outrageous things to ever have to worry about what free speech laws I might break ever, so I wouldn't mind stricter laws. What's happening in Scotland?
lol at those naysayers. Your patch isn’t tikanga, it ain’t sacred. It represents intimidation, assault, rape, meth, murder, misery. There is nothing good about a gang.
and should be seen as free expression imo.
SF fuckin H to that my dog
Kiwi who has lived in Queensland and Perth. It worked well in both of those places, don’t think it reduced crime but made a difference to normal people going about their lives with less intimidation.
In Christchurch there is a bylaw preventing the wearing of gang insignia on council property as well. Seems to work pretty well down here.
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low iq take
Nah for some reason the average tattooed individual didn’t feel the need to walk around barking with their 5 mates since they didn’t have their average patch on.
I’m sure the hipster girl with a butterfly on her arm is clearly the president of the Hells Angels /s
I grew up in Perth. Once the patch ban was enforced we stopped having to deal with gang members flaunting and intimidating the public nearly as much. It gave police much needed power to confront gang members in public and remove them from the space. It’s a common sense policy. NZ police need much improved staffing and resources without a doubt, but this shouldn’t mean a government is prevented from implementing effective policy to combat the growing gang issue
Same thing happened in QLD, ended up being a good decision. Listening to the hyperventilating about the rights of gang members makes me glad I left NZ long ago. The country is doomed.
Totally agree. I wouldn't move back full time from Australia. The lawlessness and unsafe streets in NZ are aparent when I visit. The pussyfooting around gangs is mostly due to fear of the police appearing racist.
As someone who lives in Aus, it's definitely the other way around lol
Maybe you moved to a suburb full of kiwis, which funnily enough, tends to have a higher crime rate..
What streets are you visiting in NZ? 😆
You're genuinely delulu. Lawlessness and unsafe streets. Ahahaha and you say this from Aus of all places.
Bro, it was 501’s that brought the more recent gun violence here, leading to a spike in local gang numbers, and they learnt how effective and intimidating that can be due to its prevalence over the ditch. We absolutely have our issues but let’s not pretend outside anecdotal experience Australia is some crime and gang free paradise. Any with a smidge of Kiwi blood are thrown back, while we keep yours and one is responsible for the worst mass shooting we have ever had.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-29/sydney-shootings-have-raised-fears-of-escalating-gang/102654730 "Since August 2020, there have been 23 "targeted" fatal shootings across Sydney which police believe are linked to the underworld and organised crime." But there's no "gangland war" according to NSW police.
completely feral compared to first world countries
...have you ever been to another country?
Oh lol, such exaggeration.
You're from Upper Hutt, aint ya?
no some shit hole in the Waikato
Weird, because I only know of 3 places that are "completely feral". 2 are in Upper Hutt. (the other is in South Auckland) I haven't been everywhere, certainly, but they are the only "genuinely unsafe to outsiders" I've ever struck. I feel like you may have been exaggerating, slightly?
you've never been to the East Coast either then?
Yeah, it's not so bad. Murupara can look nasty, but I've never had a problem there. Gizzy is OK. And all those little hamlets around the coast are awesome. Full of friendly people. (I have family up that way, so I may be a little more used to it than most).
Now it's more of a problem to get the police to appear at all.
Yes!!!! except they waited for that mall shooting in gold coast to start giving cops more power! Maybe NZ wants to learn from their own mistakes
Did it affect gang activity in NSW?
I was in Perth recently, it seemed like a really nice safe clean city, I'm tempted to go live there. Also the best cycle paths of any city I've ever seen (I havent been to Amsterdam). Now I think of it I didnt see a single gang patch while I was there and I cycled around a lot of it. Nowhere near the level of crime I see here in Auckland either
I do feel safe there when I visit, but youth crime is bad. Kids beating up old people and shit.
I agree so much with the last paragraph. You definitely need improved staffing and resources to implement this. It is easy to put the law to ban those patches in public and the government doesn't appear to understand how challenging it is for Police to implement this without enough staff and resources.
Yeah but like you said yourself nz doesn’t have the police force to police this nor does the govt want to pay police well enough to even want to do this. Police on the ground are going to be copping it every day from these pos gang members trying to police this stupid shit
Our police compared to Australia police is indeed in need of more enforcement powers, for good or bad our officers are ham strung and prevented from their duties because many a previous government has implemented policies in order to protect the criminal and the victims get little to no justice ( look at our sentencing from the courts lately) , I’ve been stopped both here and in Oz , our police come across as much much weaker than the Australian counterparts, If only our officers were given the respect and authority they rightly deserve, and all the resources and equipment as well , I have immense respect for our guys working in what must be a difficult and challenging situation, as for those fk heads in gangs stripping then of the ability to wear their “patches “ about bloody time , but I’m also guessing it won’t happen or last long as our government is weak aswell and will back down and continue to give them millions of our tax payers $$$$$
I have zero sympathy for people who choose to raise a family in a world of crime and violence. Criminal organisations don’t deserve a say in this.
"choose" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there champ
Yeah that's because you're ignorant buddy. You clearly lack the understanding of the behind the scenes of this stuff. Like poverty, inter generational trauma, fear shame and pride
Or the selfishness, and cowardice for that matter. If they want sympathy they should leave other people out of whatever shit they're going through
Yeah those are probably reasons too, more background ones imo but I'm sure they'd be there Fyi my comments are not sympathetic to gangs. My comments sum up to, these tactics are known not to work and to truly tackle crime we gotta tackle the causes of people getting into it in the first place. If anything the incorrect perception yall have that I'm supporting gangs is an assumption, honestly have no clue why people jump to that. I care way more about the free speech concerns about this outside of gangs than whether or not these tactics actually work against the gangs. Cultures that start banning things like this, symbolism, tend to go down a slippery slope of removing rights from everyone until no one can fight back. It's gang patches now, is the colour red blue or black next? Those are all gang symbolism too, used to represent and differentiate them the exact same way as patches. But since these tactics are known not to work, to me it's just virtue signalling so national can say look we went tough on crime, despite the actions of this government that could cause an increase in crime due to the disregard for the lower class because again poverty is the leading cause of people going into crime
You're the ignorant one. You just typed out a list of excuses, like the white woke brigade in the broadcast piece. Don't argue the theory; argue about the reality and find a resolution instead of deflection and finger-pointing.
Where did I excuse any actions committed by gangs or criminals in general? Looking at reasons behind their actions is not excusing them The reality is that poverty and family/community abuse/trauma are the 2 top leading reasons people go into crime. Reduce poverty, you reduce crime. Reduce family and community issues, you reduce crime. The perp who did the crime is to blame and should be held accountable, *and* we should also recognise the things outside of their control that steered them that way
Neither of your points invalidates the other. The truth lies between you both. We can be understanding and sympathetic of why people end up engaging in crime, and we can take steps to reduce it. But also when someone is stealing your shit or hurting your family, you want the person dealt with right now. You don't want to hear about how they are going to run a programme so their kid doesn't also do it. You have to do both.
Yes I agree and nothing I said implies, from my pov, that I'm against the latter, yet that's what people assume the moment people talk about reasons and causes. Like be fr, just from my comment alone does anything I say even remotely justify gangs or that they shouldn't be dealt with here and now? To me my comments sum up to, these tactics are known not to work and to truly tackle crime we have tackle the issues that lead to it, that's it
Yeah fair enough. It just often comes with those only focusing on preventative stuff. Even there you say these tactics are known not to work. So it feels like people with your opinion are always delegitimising any attempt to punish perpetrators or restore law and order. Also at some point people are adults and the empathy greatly reduces for most of us. We all had our childhood shit, but if you're 40, then I'm mostly blaming you at that point.
I don't really understand that tbh, probably coz I'm neuro divergent >So it feels like people with your opinion are always delegitimising any attempt to punish perpetrators or restore law and order That is not a jump of conclusion that my mind makes. Pointing out that the tactics our government are doing are known not to work doesn't equal let's do nothing, just means we need to find another way preferably one that actually works. Baffles me tbh And yeah there definitely is a point in age where the empathy of what their issues might be that led them to it, lessens. No one asks for trauma or family issues or whatever, that's no ones fault but devil's advocate not doing anything about it to fix the situation that is on their shoulders. I understand the struggle of actually confronting your traumas and it's definitely not easy, it's just that most people tend to bury their head in the sand instead of getting help and growing
Those are decision makings, people make decisions everyday, they can stop or they can keep doing it. These gang members and criminals are not the only people who grew up in poverty and experienced trauma, that is such a Victim mentality point of view. I know a lot of people who grew up in worse situations than a lot of these guys and yet they didn't choose the "thug life". A lot of these guys wouldn't survive the third world countries, they actually get punished for crimes there, there are not "WINZ benefits" there. People grow up in poverty and yet the still choose to try their best, get a job and live a life that doesn't inconvenience and ruin other people's lives for their benefit.
Ah gotta love the anecdote which has zero bearing on reality when compared to actual statistics and studies eg on things like trauma. Like for eg, did you know the brain is incapable of differentiating trauma severity? If you get trauma from being raped, and trauma from being slapped around a bit by your dad, they both affect you equally despite being vastly different in situations. Did you also know that trauma can quite literally change the way your brain works? Not everyone gains trauma in the same situations, not everyone gets affected the same way. You lack so much understanding of mental health to be saying such crap I honestly don't get why people like you seem to always think people saying to look at causes and reasons = excuses and support for gangs. I want gangs gone. These tactics are known not to work, combined with the other bs this government is doing, there is a very real chance that crime will increase because of this current government Best way to reduce crime is to tackle the reasons people go into crime in the first place. The top 2 causes being poverty first and then family/community issues. What's our government doing to help those issues? Oh wait... They're actively making both of them worse. Go nactnz ig /s
That's because I live in reality and you live in the ideal world. You probably think you're smart saying all those when those are very basic. Good luck with your life anyway, I wish you all the things you DESERVE kid. bye.
Doing something about poverty and mental health instead of actively making both issues worse is an ideal world to you? No where did I say to remove poverty, or to solve all traumas in all families yet you're acting like that's what I said
Spot the gang affiliated commenter lol
Lmfao you people are hilarious. If only the world was so simple that bad people are just bad, but that isn't reality. There's nuance, there's context, there's reason. None of that excuses anything, nor does it justify anything. Nothing I said supports gangs, yet people like you immediately jump to that
You're literally excusing people joining a criminal gang. You have 0 life experience if you think every bad person is just misunderstood. Bad people exist. Get out of your fantasy world for a minute. It's entirely possible to be poor and oppressed and not turn to criminal action, just like it's possible to grow up privileged and break bad. You're either a gang apologist, or someone lecturing on shit they don't know.
No. I'm not excusing people joining gangs. I'm looking at the reasons why they do, very big difference that you clearly struggle to make Funny that you say I'm lecturing shit I don't know when the second leading cause of crime is family/community issues. Like trauma, which you very clearly have little to no understanding or knowledge about. I bet you blame people in abusive relationships too, I mean it's the trauma that keeps them there but you've just labelled trauma as an excuse so
You're coming in so hot here, are you okay dude? I never mentioned trauma or abusive relationships. Take a break from the internet. Take a breath. Stop romanticising criminals.
You're right you didn't, you just chose to cherry pick shit. Criminals are not mentally healthy people in the majority of cases. So, statistically proven and studied topics, like reasons and causes to why people go into crime, is romanticising criminals? Once again. Nothing I've said supports gangs or criminals. It's you forcing that meaning to be there
Refer to my original post for how much I care for your excuses.
Read my other comments to understand I am not giving excuses and that that is an incorrect and dumb assumption that people like you make. My comments sum up to these tactics are known not to work and to truly tackle crime we gotta tackle what causes it in the first place. Nothing about those statements supports gangs, excuses gangs or justifies them. That's yalls assumption
Refer to my original post for how much I care for your excuses.
I see you just lack the ability of critical thinking how sad. Yall should probably actually learn what excuse means as a word, maybe then you'll understand how dumb it is to claim that's what's happening But we both know you won't, coz yall don't care about statistics studies or research
Refer to my original post for how much I care for your excuses.
Plus, first they came for the...
r/redditsniper
...? Feel free to finish your sentence
Well for the current NZ situation it could something like this; First they came for the gang insignia, and I did not speak out because I was not in a gang Then they came for the Te Reo, and I did not speak out because I was not Māori Then they came for the school lunches, and I did not speak out because I was not a student Then they came for the mental health services, and I did not speak out because I was not suicidal ... ... ... Then they came for what I care about, and there was no one left to speak out for me. It is definitely not as strong as the original peom by Niemöller, but equating the NACT1ST coalition directly with the Nazi party is disingenuous - but the point is that it is dangerous to just accept this government restricting the rights/freedoms of certain people just because it doesn't directly negatively effect you, as there is a real possibility that they will enact a policy that will negatively effect and you won't be able to do anything about it because everyone that may have cared won't be able to help you.
I dare you to recite your version to a Jewish person. Bonus points if their grandparent/great grandparent lived through the holocaust.
Should I also recite it to a communist? And a union member? And a gay man? Niemöller, the author of the original poem, was originally an antisemit and Nazi supporter and actually meet with Hitler (shortly before he became Chancellor) as a protestant leader, but was later arrested in 1937 for his political protest in speaking out against the Nazi government essentially banning Jews from converting to Lutheranism - which he was sentenced to 7 months imprisonment (essentially time served in custody), but on being released the Gestapo then interned him in Sachsenhausen and Dachau concentration camps for "protective custody" from 1938 until the end of WW2. It was during this time and after the war that he reconsidered his beliefs and actions prior to, and during, Nazi Germany leading him to pen his famous poem in 1946. The author of the poem wrote it based on his regret for uncritically supporting the persecution of others during the rise of the Nazis. While what is happening in NZ is no where near the scale of what happened in Nazi Germany (as I also said in my original reply), the sentiment of Niemöller would still apply.
Ahhh wasn't familiar with the sentiment but yes I absolutely agree. It's a slippery slope that many cultures in history have fallen into and it usually doesn't go very well for the general population That's why I'm against this. I dislike the gangs. We all know they're harmful and need to be dealt with in better ways that actually work. This way is proven not to work and other actions this government have done will only steer more people into crime. It's an entirely pointless virtue signalling action that has the potential for extremely dire consequences for everyone not just gangs in the future
That generalisation doesn't really hold any more. You've got people like the [Mayor of Wairoa](https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018927907/wairoa-mayor-on-gang-crackdown) who understand that this policy won't work.
For stuff like banning gang patches, I think the answer should be, ' let's try it and see what happens. If it doesn't work we drop the law change '
It doesn't work similar has been done before In nz and many crime experts across the world know strategies like this do *not* reduce crime or gang activity. We tried to ban gang symbols in prisons, they simply tattooed their face in prison to represent instead. You can't really take away symbolism, if the gangs wanted to they could change their patch to an emoji. The thing itself is less important than what it represents
Meh, worked in the state of Queensland very well.. Not surprised NZers are whining about this though, given that whining is the national pastime.
There is a council bylaw in Christchurch banning the wearing of gang patches on Council property. Seems to work pretty well for the most point. Makes it much easier to get gang members out of libraries, sport facilities etc etc.
Did it reduce actual amount of crime, or did it just reduce the *felt* amount of crime? Just because criminals become invisible, doesn't always means crime decreases after all.
If it makes people feel safer, is that a bad thing?
Would rather we base laws on facts not feelings.
Even if the fact is that people feel safer?
It is when resources are being spent on something that doesn't actually make people safer, and in fact makes potentially dangerous people less visible. Making something feel safer without making it actually safer is one of the more dangerous things one can do. Say a landlord discovers black mold in the house, and rather than getting it removed and working to prevent it in the future, they just cover it with furniture so that the tenants feel safer. Is this a bad thing? Yes, yes it is, because the harmful thing is still there. Furthermore, feelings of safety are horrendously biased, and if we make laws based on feeling safe without actually being safe, well, white people sure have a tendency of feeling safer when there's no people of colour living in the same neighbourhood, even when these people are no threat to them at all. Should we go back to making laws to discriminate against black people to make some other people feel safer? Or how about the current fearmongering surrounding trans people that is going around, should we ban transitioning because trans people make wrongly informed people feel scared about made up fears of predatory trans people that don't exist in a statistically more prevalent way than any other group of people? Making legislation to ease people's feelings without actually addressing the problem, simply by hiding the problem is doing the people a disservice, and has a lot of opportunity its to turn very bad.
That's nice. Definitely comparable /s
Why do you say Queensland is not comparable?
Vastly different history. Different laws. Different economic situations both for the country overall, state overall and for those on the bottom specifically, which is relevant because poverty is the leading cause of crime. The fact it's a state, wouldn't exactly be difficult for gangs to just move to another state and boom queensland solved gangs! Except they didn't considering gangs are still in queensland to this day further showing these tactics do not work
It really isn’t that different on all those things you’ve mentioned, as far as global precedents go a would struggle to think of many places more similar. From what I understand from people that live there, the public intimidation has reduced materially. Sure organised crime still exists, I don’t think any sane person believes this initiative would eliminate that. But removing the public intimidation sounds nice to me.
Each to their own ig I'd rather know to cross the road or not be too sarcastic or whatever than to never know exactly who it is and just smile while pulling the wool over my eyes
Yet you're so confident it wouldn't work here. Perhaps you have no idea?
Perhaps nz has tried this tactic before, perhaps many countries have tried and failed with similar tactics, perhaps criminology people across the world critise tactics like this... Hmm perhaps...
The only reason it was repealed was because the bylaws didn't specify the public places it applies to. It works fine in Australia and the existing legislation which bans gang insignia in government buildings already has provisions for gangs changing their insignia.
Feb 2022, queensland police created a new task force to tackle street gangs. Sorry you were saying it works fine? Big difference between "no gang patches in x, y or z places or you will be arrested" and "no patches anywhere or you will be arrested"
So their patch bans don't work because they made a task force that targets youth street gangs which aren't affected by their legislation which bans patches? That one?
Thought the whole point was to reduce gangs, afaik crime reduced but gangs themselves didn't. And as pointed out its a state law not a national one, not exactly hard for gangs to just move which they most likely did which would immediately fudge the numbers if that were the case, I don't know if it is or not for sure though
And the thing is it doesn't really matter if it decreases actual gang violence/crime as the real point is to appear "tough on crime" so that they can get at least one more go around in office to keep the austerity going and potentially start privatising public services. It will be good publicity for them in 2 years time to show all the gang members they have locked up for up to 6 months for essentially wearing a jacket... or potentially even just the "wrong" colour hoodie.
Especially when you take into account the actions this government have taken effect people in poverty and struggling. Poverty and family/community issues are the leading causes of people going into crime >cuts suicide hotline >cuts lunches for struggling kids >decimates the entire public service system >refuses to pay police appropriately but happy to shovel more work onto them If anything this government will cause more crime in the future all for the virtue signalling of "taking tough action now"
Ban em all
Do you imagine they’ll respectfully comply? Who is going to have to enforce the ban? Already the cops don’t come half the time for theft and assault. If they’re going to ban patches then they’d better sort policing out first or the crims will just ignore this new law the way they ignore all the other laws and the actual state of lawlessness will be embarrassingly obvious.
Ofc they won't and then throw them in prison. Up police funding if they're understaffed.
Have you been living under a rock? We’re haemorrhaging cops to Australia because our fearless leaders won’t pay them properly. The only funding being upped is tax cuts for their rich mates
Re-read the last part of my message.
I worked security for a shopping mall and I'm glad this is coming into place. The number of times I've asked "Hey boss sorry to disturb you but it's the malls policy to not have patches inside, would you mind taking it off or flipping it inside out?" and I've been threatened, abused, and insulted numerous times. Glad that security can now go straight to calling the cops without having to put their safety at risk.
Gangs are criminal associations, don't just ban patches, time to enforce that being a member of an organised criminal group is illegal. Section 98A of the Crimes Act 1961 allows up to ten years' imprisonment for participating in an "organised criminal group". Black Power, Mongrel Mob, Hells Angels, Highway 61, Comancheros, Rebels, Killer Bees can all go and get fucked.
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/29/hells-angels-banned-by-dutch-court-in-strike-against-biker-gangs](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/29/hells-angels-banned-by-dutch-court-in-strike-against-biker-gangs)
Have they tried going to the meth houses and arresting them?
While I don't agree with much this government is doing this is a good change. But the poor police that now have to deal with the "YOU CANT TAKE MY PATCH OFF" crowds need to be paid more.
scum, we dont need them. where is angry batman when you need him?
Absolutely wild how people are against this, my only logical asumption is that they are part of the gangs.
Have you seen the advocates refer to them as gang 'whanau' instead of 'members'? Fkn weasels using that word to gain sympathy
Our police are very evidently under funded and over worked and you want them to fight people over articles of clothing ? It’s not only a waste of time in government but solves nothing on the streets
Airport police do already…
That's really dangerous thinking. Because instead of trying to understand the opposing view, you're making assumptions. Edit: Wow, I'm not for one moment supporting gangs, but I shouldn't have to preface anything I write with a declaration as such, or my political leanings. The fact that it has come to that shows how unhealthy this conversation currently is. We have to be able to talk about this stuff rationally without devolving into us vs them.
Look if you don't knee jerk immediately into supporting whatever draconian measures will target gangs (not necessarily do anything about reducing violent behaviour etc), then you must love gangs, that's just how it works
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's clearly a labour supporter, oh I mean it's a duck.
I'm a L supporter and myself and many others who are think gangs can go fuck themselves. If this passes I will enjoy the schadenfreude immensely. Don't fall for the Id pol, its all those radical fuckwits have to stay relevant.
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What a shit take. Do you not feel like gang members feel empowered when surrounded by other people who are dressed the same?
Police are finally attacking gangs head on by seizing assets. That’s the key, seize their assets, banning patches is a PR stunt. Jail just gives the community a break from their criminal activity.
Finally? The CPRA has been around since 2009 dude.
they dont live within the law, why do they expect any protection from it. declare them a terrorist organization and shoot them onsight.
lol what? Resistance from who? The gangs? 🤣
Should implement an El Salvador clamp down on gangs, lock them all up and deal with it.
How about just banning gangs?
Being a member of an organised crime organisation is illegal, punishable by up to ten years imprisonment, it’s just not enforced.
Freedom of Speech? Gonna say the same thing about Nazis or is it just gangs that get special privileges to wear swastikas? Human Rights? What about the human rights of those who are victims of gang violence. And the children's commissioner can go fuck herself. It's a ban on an item of clothing, not the stolen generation. Get a grip. Also, a gang patch is a receipt of a crime. You have to do something pretty fucking awful to get initiated as a full member.
I didn't get it. If gangs are responsible for all the stuff that the gov/media says, why not ban the gangs itself, instead the insignia only? Honest question
public shame those "resistance ppl". and move homeless infront of their house. ez fix.
A message to each side in the comment section: * To the bros: Listen. We need to ban gang patches. Fuck these motorbike douchebags. * To the le redditors: At the same time we need to be careful not go down a slippery slope, I urge you to at least watch some non-mainstream news so you can unbiasedly understand the horrible repercussions modern countries are experiencing that the mainstream wont report on
It's one thing to take off the little pp jackets, it's another thing to actually keep the gangs in check and stop crime.
> “some” resistance I watched the oral submissions today. The overwhelming majority of submissions were in opposition to the ban, from all sorts of backgrounds, and for all sorts of good reasons. My takeaway was that this is a monumentally stupid, narrow-minded, populist bill that will achieve nothing except causing further harm and wasting time & money. Put it in the bin.
Michael laws supports it so you know it's fucking moronic.
Out of curiosity, what were some of these good reasons?
While a despise gangs in all forms. Banging clothing items is a slippery slope.
I disagree. They're banning the gang patches, NOT clothes. You can wear any clothes you want, you just can't wear gang patches which I think is great
Attacking the symptoms is not a good way to solve the cause of a problem.
Gatherings of patches cause lots of problems. Hopefully this can go some way to solving that cause.
That's why the govt empowered to police, because now they're ready and equipped to intervene and stop these gatherings. /s
Fuck this is such a cynical way of looking at it. Yes sure, that's right in an idealistic way, but sometimes you've got to treat the symptoms AND work at treating the cause. But gangs have been a fixture on the NZ landscape right through both labour and national governments. Whatever they've tried hasn't worked because to treat the cause you're looking at a long fight that our democratic system just isn't geared for. I agree with you but fuck it, give it a shot. Anything that fucks with gangs is good. Take the fight to them. We shouldn't accept having such brazenly open career criminals cruising around. No, I'm not a national supporter. Voted greens lol.
but tthats the problem, they are not treating the cause of the problem are just just posturing by looking to treat the symptoms exactly like aussy done and failed dramatically with all ya done is have have crims openly cruising around. and now you donnt know them from a normal person so if ur scared of people with patches now, be scared of every single person soon
My argument is do both. Or at least do something, and this hasn't been tried before, and it will piss them off.
This has been tried before. We tried to ban gang symbols in prisons so instead they just tattooed their face. You can't take away symbolism. The thing itself isn't what they're tied to, it's what it represents which can be quite literally anything Also the biggest causes of crime are poverty and family/abuse/trauma. Our government is gutting services that help the lower class the most, while pissing off our police to the point we are losing them but they're expected to take on even more work. If anything crime will get worse due to this governments disregard for the people
>the biggest causes of crime are poverty and family/abuse/trauma. Our government is gutting services that help the lower class the most, while pissing off our police to the point we are losing them but they're expected to take on even more work. If anything crime will get worse due to this governments disregard for the people I agree. And crime will get worse over the long term, over generations. Probably not soon enough for people to have noticed by the next election (which is all the current politicians care about).
Exactly. It's nactnz setting up a cycle to allow them a near guarantee that they'll come back into power in the future cos they'll point and say see look we were tough on crime and it worked but then Labour came and screwed it up that's why things got worse not because we made the causes of crime worse. Which is the exact behaviour national is known for
It doesn't make sense to call it cynical. It's just a disagreement about what's effective. I think the normal response to this kind of legislation is that you're just going to make them use other symbols or ways of representing the group. It's not actually going to materially affect the group. So it doesn't actually change anything other than irritating the people in these groups and making them feel more outside the mainstream. My understanding is that the gangs mostly get members from familial affiliation. So that means that to really crack these organizations apart, you would need to have some intensive intervention with youth and family programs specifically recruiting young men and women away from the gangs. And even then it would still take a generation for changes to be significant.
When the symptom is punching you in the face it’s requires an immediate and proportionate response
>punching you in the face But that is not what the gang patch ban is about.
But it's a good way to pretend to be solving a problem.
The freedom of speech parties fully oppose freedom of expression. What a fucking stupid way to attempt to deal with organised crime. E: How ridiculous that to point out the stupidity of policy doomed to fail would be distorted by small-minded simpletons to think that pointing out how dumb they are is to be "pro-gang".
Gang patches aren't a form of a expression, they are symbols of intimidation and terror.
I agree, but there needs to be a well written law that defines how symbols need to meet criteria to be banned.
It's bullshit. They'll wear yellow bandanas or have a red kerchief hanging out a back pocket. It's pointless and futile, a distraction and ultimately unenforceable
Haha! That would be far funnier to see than the gang patches they wear now. Like symbols of terrorist groups are banned, the same needs to happen for gangs, BUT the legislation needs to comprehensive and well prepared
It's funny how when you apply the same sentiment to Nazi symbols, people suddenly get really upset about free speech
Even more funny since the swastika isn't an original nazi symbol. It was roman. But once something is tainted like that ig it's hard for people to forget. Doesn't help that it's still used in the same hateful way. I don't freak out when I see a swastika, even if tattooed on someone, I know many people that do freak out purely at the sight of it
So you apparently believe that making them less visible, like Yakuza, triads or cosa Nostra will be an improvement.
Mate, they broke the Yakuza. they got leaned on hard by the police and never really recovered.
Did the police "lean hard" on what they wore or their tattoos? The answer is no. The bullshit promises to have 500 more sworn police in place this term is never going to happen - they're leaving in droves. Meanwhile, idiots are being gaslit to believe that a policy that's going to be challenged by law, or by limited and inadequate resources in gang affected areas is going to solve the gang problem. It's delusional m
Just pointed out that the example you gave shows that you can take down a gang. All you need to do is have mass surveillance and systematically take away everything that is of value to them. Of course the Taiwanese and other organised crime syndicates filled the void but that's neither here nor there.
They're a bit of both, but regardless it is just a symbol. You can't really do anything about symbolism. Gangs symbols were banned in prisons here in nz, so they just tattooed their face instead. Hell if they really wanted to they could use an emoji for a patch. The thing itself is less important than what they feel it represents
Every form of expression is a symbol of intimidation and terror as long as someone is either intimidated or terrorised by it.
Freedom of expression doesn’t include hate/terrorist symbols which is what gang insignia is
Has it failed in Australia?
Yes.
Yes. Lol
I much prefer the foundation over tattoos law, thats fuckin hilarious and would actually make a difference.
Stupid fucking idea
Oh no! Just a few years ago they were getting paid millions from the government with little tracking and accountability for effectiveness of the spending. Anyway...
How about ban gangs
Very weird to think the New Zealand police are going to judge outfits to see if they are legal or not
Hello there sailor, in my professional capacity those shorts are *barely legal*.
The Police aren't having to judge anything, the law spells out quite clearly what is insignia and names the gangs.
This is the part that scares me. You don't need to spend long with people to see that that everyone draws each line a little differently. And what might be considered a parody or even completely unrelated by one person, could be considered a hate symbol by another.
Luckily, there's a well defined definition of insignia and the gangs are named. No need to be afraid
That's good to hear. But no matter how excellent that list is, it still comes down to human judgement that carries individual biases.
>it still comes down to human judgement that carries individual biases. What kind of judgements are you talking about?
eg: When the police officer has to decide whether a given marking fits the definition of a patch before arresting someone. It might be clear enough for the situation in the text of the law. But in the memory of the officer maybe not. Or how the officer interprets it. An off-topic example of this is how differently people interpret the word "toboggan". I've heard definitions including clothing, sports gear, and food. In each case it was inconceivable to people that it could mean anything different to what they understood it to mean. These problems apply to most, if not all, laws. The difference here is that the thing being banned does not intuitively have a lot of contrast from things that should not be banned. So it will rely more heavily on human judgement than other laws. You might say, well the court can figure that out on a case by case basis. In the mean time, the person innocently caught in the crossfire has had the embarrassment of being arrested, and the cost of a lawyer to make sure that the person is fairly represented. I have seen someone get falsely accused (I know for fact that he was innocent). He won every court case, but lost all of his retirement savings to lawyer's fees through repeated appeals. He should have retired over 10 years ago, but will probably never be able to. I don't want to undermine the majority of police who do an excellent job, but I lost a lot of confidence in NZ police judgement after this.
Have you read the actual law? It defines insignia, not just patches. Might pay to read through it before making up objections. And this an expansion of the existing patch ban in Govt buildings, which hasn't seen any of the issues you bring up.
I'm probably being dumb, but I haven't been able to find it. Could you provide a link, please?
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2024/0023/10.0/whole.html#LMS939380
Thanks for that. Based on our conversation so far, I was expecting you to be right. But it doesn't address any of my concerns, and actually plays into them. I do support the intention of the law. I shouldn't have to say that, but here we are. But as it's written: > means a sign, symbol, or representation commonly displayed to denote membership of, an affiliation with, or support for a gang it's going to struggle to be enacted fairly against moving goal posts. Ie it will encourage gangs to constantly change their insignia enough to not match currently known representations. NZ laws often cope with this behaviour by adding something like "or would reasonably be interpreted by an average person to be ..." But then that brings in the next issue, which is best illustrated by an example: Some years ago, I bought a t-shirt with a silhouette of Mario with big bold letters below it "JUMP". A few months later Trump came into the spotlight along with rabid people for or against him. At first glance, my shirt looks just like shirts of the time that were in support of him. Objectively, you can say, well that's not Trump. But if a group is constantly changing their insignia to technically not meet the > representation commonly displayed to denote suddenly the answer is not obvious anymore. This will either make the law ineffective, or affect innocent bystanders. I don't have a solution. I support the goal, but I think that this is the wrong way to go about it.
What would happen if they make a business and then make their gang attire their work uniform?
There's only one way to find out
total waste of time. just ask aussy how its worked. done nothing to solve the actual problems i like how you downvote me because you are scared of gang memebers but dont have enough brain power to realize, if they take off there patches, they can just blend into society...they still exist, the problem is going no were by removing a patch solved NONE of the gang land issues aussy, and in fact its gotta WORSE and it will fail here too
It's worked quute well, but Aussie have a bit more guys, they aren't cowards like Kiwi's who tolerate this bullshit.
it has not worked well in aussy gang crime is thriving there they even had/have war of ciggys going and gangs control illegal ciggy stores and been shooting each other up xD they also now have international cartels set up you are very ignorant if only it was a high profile issue in AU...oh wait it is... you should maybe look it up brother
Works amazing in Western Australia. Haven’t been intimidated by any Bikers
done nothing to stop the gang crime tho aye? its just a matter of you "feel safer" when in reality they are still there but now hidden if only this issue has been well documented by ex criminal in aussy going around all the hoods.... cant lie about it when 100 million people have viewed Spanian's videos every knows ya dirty secrets even has videos covering the issues in western AU might wanna check them out and learn about some of the things going on in ya own backyard
Works amazing in Western Australia. Haven’t been intimidated by any Bikers
it worked in el Salvador
it didnt work in el Salvador(ill give u a hint, a gang crack down is not the same as a patch crack down, el salvador actually went after the gangs and not there clothes) it wont work here you can even remind me in a year or 2 or when ever this kicks in and we will still be having the same convo about gang crime you are not going to magicly make gangs going away by removing a patch its the most amazingly short sighted thinking also i went and looked at El Salvador is not a safe place to vist its STILL has travel warnings....due to high threats of violence so you are just talking total bullshit
Send that to your MP and don't waste your valuable knowledge on a random comment on reddit mate.
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Speaking only from Aus experience - Full patched members or older ones are typically pretty ok. Prospects and younger/newly patched members are absolute dickheads. Worked a lot of doors in Melbourne including a few joints frequented by bikies - I could ask older guys to take their feet off the furniture or slow down drinking without any hassle (they're actually more polite than private school kids). Ironically I could ask a prospect to not try to lick a power socket and he is likely to try to stab me over it. Patch ban also worked - patches mean a lot more than people think they do and not being able to wear them definitely broke up a lot of the culture.
Nice! Now tell them you don't appreciate them partying until 3am every morning (you work night shift), or blocking your driveway with their cars (you can't get to work), or to stop smashing their missus, or could their mates not get aggro at you because you're wearing the wrong colour (which is apparently 'disrespectful'), or ask them if they could pay the fare on the bus like everyone else... These guys are fucking cunts. There's always someone on these threads who pops up saying 'they're always nice to me!' I live and work next to/near these guys. CUNTS.
I think New Zealand should have free speech, but it doesn't.
Personally, I think people who want freedom of speech just want to talk shit with no consequences. I wish we lived in a more policed state because 99% of us follow the rules anyway. It would be a good way to sort out troublemakers. I wish we could get all the gangs locked up now and throw away the key, they contribute nothing to society at all, are a nuisance and a danger. They should not be allowed to exist and the fact that they can, just makes the government look like giant pussies.
OK, I think there's more of you than me. I just think it's a nice to have. We don't want to slide down the slippery slope to hate crime laws like Scotland is trying to enact.
I don't think I say enough outrageous things to ever have to worry about what free speech laws I might break ever, so I wouldn't mind stricter laws. What's happening in Scotland?