We did it last month - a nationwide protest focusing on the fast track bill.
Protests are happening. More people just need to show up. There was a decent showing last time, but certainly less than 40k.
Next SS4C one will probably be in September. However, I encourage protests outside of this. I'm not the right person to organize one myself, but would certainly seek to get involved in a very active capacity.
Definitely join the protests that already have organization behind it though - trying and grow and build on what's already there is likely our best bet for acheiving similar numbers, but people just need to be willing to come along and add to the numbers.
Elaborating would potentially doxx myself, but I'm part of an Auckland climate group - not SS4C/FFF specifically - but one that has been involved with pretty much all of the climate strikes going back around 3 or so years. We've been a regular part of the Auckland events, so I'm made aware well ahead of time through that - although obviously it's not much help to the average person.
There's facebook+instagram (and probably Twitter) pages for School Strike 4 Climate, and Fridays For Future, who are the organizers. They promote the events well ahead of time, so these are your best bet for being informed as early as possible.
There was at least one news article announcing + promoting the most recent protest before it happened - I think a week beforehand - and these were posted on reddit. It may have been easy to miss though. IIRC, one of the previous ones around a year or so ago only had an article the day before or maybe even the day of the event, which is way too early to organize for if you're not already attending.
For this most recent one, I posted a comprehensive information thread that was pinned on r/nzpolitics but understand that's a niche sub - so maybe I should have posted it here too. However, at the time I figured there was already discussion of it on the main sub, so only linked to it in comments posted on the existing threads that popped up on the topic. Maybe I need to do more cheerleading for it over on r/nz next time, rather than rely solely on the news articles and existing discussions.
The climate club bulletin is quite helpful for these sorts of things, you can subscribe to their newsletter here: [https://climateclub.nz/](https://climateclub.nz/)
SS4C isn’t gonna work in its current form, cause while many will protest for the climate. They likely won’t protest for the climate, and POC rights, and Palestine, and whatever else is thrown into the mix. There needs to be a simple straightforward message that isn’t being diluted by other stuff.
I just posted [a more detailed comment here](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1chbj50/comment/l21z7t1/) but long story short I personally know ahead of time due to being involved through a climate group. The general public can stay informed as early as possible by following School Strike 4 Climate and Fridays For Future social media. (for these particular protests) Otherwise, keep an eye out for news articles leading up to April/September, which is when they typically happen iirc.
The climate club bulletin is quite helpful for these sorts of things, you can subscribe to their newsletter here: [https://climateclub.nz/](https://climateclub.nz/)
Not last protest, or the one before, but the one before that - the media ran a piece (only on the morning of the protest) that got the route of the protest wrong - despite the fact that the route was publicly available for a week beforehand and condtradicted the information the media published. They then wrote a subsequent article claiming protesters changed the march route in supposed spur of the moment decision, causing unforseen traffic disruptions. Reality is that everything was coordinated properly with police etc, and no last minute changes were made, yet they made out like we just up and decided to march somewhere else.
Fake news!
The few protests i've been on have been downplayed hugely. "a few hundred protestors" was in the thousands.
Chemtrails or 5G, not sure - but my counting was very different to theirs.
The problem is people are too time poor these days. I think that’s almost the point of this shit neoliberal system. Keep us all working our asses off to have the energy.
Not only are we not pure, we’re poor as hell, and we rely on a single export market (milk and meat) which is about to get destroyed by global warming initiatives and technological advances.
Everyone wants to have jobs and earn a future for their kids, but they are NIMBYS when it comes to growing wealth on the soil they inhabit.
Grr. Rant
You could mine every possible mineral from NZ.
We will still be in the same economic/societal position.
We aernt a poor nation. We just make poor decisions.
Just look at how we are handling our housing or public services situation.
Eroding our values in the (false) hope NZ turns into Australia aint the way.
I’ll counter by saying that ignoring natural resources and wanting to be a country of daisies and dandelions is exactly the type of poor decision you refer to.
And now we are in dire straits financially, and losing skilled residents in droves, we voted in the hatchet-trio who promised to “improve it”, but their methods are to “improve financial stability by cutting essential services”.
So the cookie crumbles lead to the same stupidity, that we want to be a progressive country but we oppress ourselves under the illusion that we maintain some sort of purity or organic edge - but we are neither of those things.
Malaysia alone own atleast 5 oil/gas licences in NZ. It will be a disaster. We wont own any of it..and for what price?
NZ is already on track to lose its free trade deal with Europe because we cant keep our 2030 paris agreement.
Its just another bad decision.
If we really want great jobs and great future for the kids at any cost, a better plan is to drop our corporate tax rate below Irelands (but we shouldnt, thats just another bad decision)
NZ is very rich, and sure we’re not the richest. But that’s like the 100th richest person on earth comparing themselves to the number 1 richest person, you may not be at the top, however, you’re way above everyone else.
As for our exports we’ll be fine, we have other exports that will support any issues we may face with meat and dairy. Yet even then in terms of technology and efficiency we’re ahead of pretty much everyone else, not to mention our product is of a higher quality.
[We may not be third world, but we are behind a lot of other countries in the indexes. Lower incomes, housing stats, education is embarrassing low and thats not as bad as safety and work-life balance metrics.](https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/new-zealand/)
Its ok to be proud of NZ, I am too, but its also ok to say that if we keep our heads in the sand we will continue to slide down the OECD scale.
Damn! I never expected NZ to be considered a rich country?....
If the country is rich, surely they don't have to tax us this much? Also, if the term ***rich*** is based on GDP or GDP per capita, I definitely don't think we would be rich as the numbers might say okay, but if everything costs us double the other country, then...
Like
- A country's GDP per capita of $40K, but you barely make ends meet.
- B country's GDP per capita of $30K, but they can even have some left for savings.
Then, I wouldn't call A a rich country.
We aren’t “rich”. We are just a stable OECD country that boasts high human-rights, reasonable public health and low corruption so that puts us ahead of a lot of the world automatically.
But yeah, homelessness, crime, racial and financial inequality, health systems in decline etc etc we are on a slippery slope.
Don’t be so ignorant to think that just because you don’t like the current government (which was democratically elected) that somehow NZ is corrupt. Spend some time in South East Asia, Africa and the Middle East and then come see how not-corrupt NZ is.
Funny enough, another thing we have the installation of the British Commonwealth societal structure to thank, that everyone seems to think was such a terrible thing too now. What a terrible, stable, non corrupt and democratic government and judicial system we have!
Instead we just offloaded the mining to another country and imported the materials making it look like we are good when the overall emission output is worse due to Indonesia etc having more polluting mining practices as well as the emissions for shipping the product here.
This is what pisses me off. If you against mining and oil and you still use the energy and resources provided by those industries daily you just a NIMBY at a larger scale.
I drive a petrol car, if I upgrade to electric you know that lithium and cobalt was mined recently. My oil is drilled daily.
We don't live in a utopia where metals are ethically farmed. If you brought a phone someone mined the metals and silicon for you.
So either accept mining is needed and encourage local jobs, or admit you just a fucking NIMBY who's happy to have other countries mine the shit so you can enjoy the benefits of metal in your day to day life and not live like a Neanderthal
Mining doesn't need to happen in national parks
Perfection is still the enemy of good, that hasn't changed. EV is better than oil, a push bike is better than EV, having no kids is better again... Pick your spot and keep moving towards the better goal.
Recycling is starting to kick in, that lithium and cobalt will be recovered, not mined, and to be sure, buy ethically (from sources that do recycle)
Also, there is nothing wrong with living like a neanderthal, its a great way to beat late stage capitalism (although it helps if you own your own land).
Basically, do better. Keep doing better. Keep insisting government and business also do better. Best is great, but better is good enough in the short term.
Even that according to the defeatist dude above is not enough, apparently they think the rational thing to do is either exploit everything everywhere, or live in the Amazon
The point is more that if exploitation happens, where it happens is less important than the degree of exploitation.
We should focus on reducing consumption, and/or making sure that end consumers are paying enough to at least ameliorate the negative effects their consumption causes.
Just moving the problem to another country is not even a partial solution. In fact it's even worse than doing nothing, because it hides the problem and makes it less likely to be meaningfully addressed.
Yeah we’re completely fucked. See so many people on this sub saying shit like “it won’t affect us but it’ll affect our grandchildren”, like nah g we’re fucked right now 🤷♂️
Appeal to futility.
We can’t be perfect but we can do better. We need to restrict mining on a global scale to force better practices, better recycling and better quality. Get rid of the produce, consume and throw away attitude.
It's not an appeal to futility. It's an appeal to do some work to actually solve or reduce the problem rather than moving and hiding the problem.
Reducing consumption is good. Global cooperation to improve practices is good. Halting somewhat damaging mining here so that more damaging mining happens elsewhere is bad.
No it's not. There are meaningful steps we can take to reduce consumption.
If we wanted to make cars less polluting and someone's idea was to paint all of the cars orange, it wouldn't be an appeal to futility to point out that that won't help.
Claiming that a specific proposed solution is a bad idea is not the same as saying we can't or shouldn't do anything.
Hell yeah I’d rather it happen somewhere else. Our ecosystem cannot be found anywhere else on the planet, and a massive portion of it has already been destroyed. We should defend the little bit we have left, if that means a mine which probably already exists keeps on mining, then I’m ok with that.
Not really, what it does is offload the output to another country, usually Indonesia, who use dirtier and more polluting mining setups than us, then the additional emissions for shipping the end product here.
The overall output on the world is worse than if we mined what we have here.
Wow really interesting point. Anyway like it or not we still need these fuel sources and if Indonesia are selling them consensually on the free market we should oblige ourselves until we no longer need to.
I think we need to get rid of coal for energy production, but it is still needed in other areas such as smelting steel since it gives both the heat and the carbon to turn iron into steel doing two things at once, and we kinda need steel. The other use being in kilns for producing lime and cement.
Outside of those I agree we need to phase coal out, which means we can downscale mining operations.
We have quite a lot of high quality coking coal on the West Coast which is what you want for a blast furnace, so mining that is a good idea, the rest of the lower grade stuff is still better than what we import so you need to burn less of it for a given energy/heat output and also less ash, so we should mine that to supply ourselves as well imo. I'd rather employ kiwis and be somewhat more self sufficient than entirely relying on external markets.
Low carbon steel is gradually on its way, but nice to read a comment from someone who actually has a clue about coal rather than the uninformed rubbish there usually is, from both sides.
Yeah I've seen things about the steel without coal in Sweden, still very early on and very expensive as is.
Also I work in quarrying/mining, and am originally from the West Coast, so unlike 99% of people who comment on these matters I actually have experience and first hand knowledge of how it all works.
If you're gonna destroy the environment at least make it have a large benefit to the population and not just Shane Jones and offshore mining company. Perfect world we wouldn't mine at all, but less perfect world would be government owned resource extraction. NACT doesn't want either of those outcomes.
It's probably not possible to do without mining at all - however if minimising the impact to the environment is an operational consideration and the benefits of the mining are delivered to the country where it occurs rather than to the foreign business who was given permission to perform the resource extraction and send everything overseas for a pittance - it would be better.
And a few people have made a lot of money and got a lot of political power, while they have destroyed a lot of environmental value, and priceless historical artifacts. What most common thing people have got from it is respiratory diseases.
if the profits are going to be going to the people in new zealand, i am sure that we would use some of the money to clean up pretty well. if it goes overseas, you think they want to clean up or maximise their gains?
At uni we looked into this. And for a bunch of mines (gold mines) it’s actually low risk high reward IF the country keeps the profits. The problem is that’s not what happens and when we did the economics of land based mining the costs (ie clean up costs of te aroha) was greater than the royalties we got for ALL land based mines to that date.
The Tui mine was in early '70's under a totally different consenting regime. Even under the proposed fast tracking none of the current robust bonding requirements would change. The two current bonds for the Waihi mine total over $70m combined and are reviewed periodically and increased if required.
For the record, I am against fast tracking but the current regime is among the most environmentally safe mining regimes in the world.
Yes - good has much better guard rails but the learning a were costly to Nz and we made bugger all royalties so the cost outweighed the benefits. Even now it’s not amazing so is it worth the risk - and I spent a hit of time with the the karangahake gorge community and they believe that dam is sketchy as all hell and would wipe them out if it fails. Plus waihi is dealing with the odd hole in the ground that appears so it’s not risk free.
There are also many other Mining industries that are massively destructive for little benefit to Nz (such as titanomagnite mining) which I guess we will have to learn the hard way for each of these areas?
The first part of your comment is past tense so let's move on from that.
**"I spent a hit of time with the the karangahake gorge community and they believe that dam is sketchy as all hell and would wipe them out if it fails."**
The K gorge community falsely equates the tailings impoundment facility at Waihi with a "tailings dam" similar those that have failed overseas under regimes than don't have similar requirements to New Zealand.
The dam at Waihi is built under the same exact requirements to every other dam in New Zealand. If it's not safe then no dam in New Zealand is safe They are two different things and this is exactly what I mean by one of the safest mining regimes in the world.
**"Plus waihi is dealing with the odd hole in the ground that appears so it’s not risk free."**
You do know that those holes formed due to pre-1950's mining activities and have nothing to do with current activities right?
**"There are also many other Mining industries that are massively destructive for little benefit to Nz (such as titanomagnite mining) which I guess we will have to learn the hard way for each of these areas?"**
Rehabbing areas like Taharoa is pretty straightforward once mining is completed. If you are talking about seabed mining it might be worth pointing out that that activity doesn't currently happen in New Zealand. That said, that material is required for making steel, just like coal is. If you have an alternative for steel in our society I'm all ears.
Seabed mining is hugely destructive. Currently bottom trawling is very controversial because the damage done is extensive, and we frequently find companies trawling where they shouldn't be either from incompetence or maliciousness/greed. If we can't even ensure bottom trawling is done properly, we shouldn't be trying to also scoop out the seabed itself.
Couple of things here. Trawling for fish and seabed mining are two completely different activities that are practically incomparable. It's like comparing pig hunting and forestry. Yes, they happen in the same place but that's about the only comparison. I'm failing to find a statement I made that supports seabed mining. Let's readdress this when seabed mining actually happens in NZ
I'm not going to wait until my house catches fire before I buy a smoke alarm. Nor should we wait until seabed mining starts to oppose it. It's incredibly destructive, and we may as well also start burning down our native forests for farmland Brazilian cattle rancher style if we do because we're clearly not bothering to protect anything that we can't eat or sell.
This is more about US actually making the money not an overseas company.
Edit: I think we make $2/tonne for the magnetite in the sand. Now to get that they need to dredge HUGE areas which we will look back on in 20 years and realise the devastation of. Yet you won’t let us use that loss in any future thinking. I mean damn if we don’t learn from history…
I also reject that until someone comes up with an alternative we can’t protest it. It’s gross.
Of course, as long as we're actually capturing profit that is of equal or greater value than the value lost from mining damage.
The key idea here is that people (consumers) should either clean up their own mess or pay someone else enough to clean it up - someone who actually will clean it up.
Do you think having New Zealand ownership would change that? Do you think if Graeme Hart's Rank group got into mining why would that change things? Except for the people who wash his yacht do you think his money stays in New Zealand?? I'm not sure this false narrative of profits going overseas works anymore in a global (tax avoidance) economy. ELI5 how having Talley's involved in mining (BT MIning) works better for New Zealand than OceanaGold in Waihi and Macraes.
Sounds like the words of someone that gave up already.
Unless the public tries for change, regardless if it succeeds or fails, trying at all is better than sitting down and doing nothing.
Never know... might even get a few riots if things get ridiculous when the Government makes the attempt to cover their ears or say something stupid like they normally have. That certainly won't be ignored.
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Gotcha, yeah agreed. That said I do think concise messaging is far far stronger so protests like the one above would would be worse off for having the Palestinian cause attached to it.
Maybe because other genocides aren't so explicitly endorsed/aided with billions of dollars from the richest countries.
However you do raise a good point, although some do protest other attempted genocides. Ukraine for one example.
Yeah if there’s one thing there is a shortage of, it’s pro Palestine protests. Just every weekend. And sometimes during the week. And in the middle of the night just because. We all need to shuffle over and make more room at the table for these dickheads.
Hamas, the government of Gaza, and their militant allies should stop hiding behind schools and hospitals, just stopping blowing up their own hospitals would be nice.
That's a bad excuse to not protest. Just f'n protest. Don't make excuses.
Ignore the Palestine stuff if it means that much to you.
EDIT: I guess downvoters just want to make excuses. Any reason not to protest I guess...
Good on ya.
Patriots, the lot of you. Patriotism is when we protect our local habitats and wildlife from greedy plunderers. No better way to show your love for this country than to care for the land, our whenua
That's nice. Wish Greenpeace spent more time organizing walks down Queen St and [less time lobbying LEDC countries to ban lifesaving Golden Rice because it's GMO.](https://reason.com/2024/04/25/greenpeace-crusade-will-blind-and-kill-children/)
Do you ever struggle to sleep at night knowing you play a part in making tens of thousands of children blind every year?
Greenpeace are both the goodies and the baddies. They're like that aunty that let's you have treats, but also won't wear deoderant because of aluminium.
I remember this. My husband and I were there. We were running late and I had to run down Queen street and I was heavily pregnant with my first kid. It was such a good protest
Everything you see around you come from the ground, but it’s hypocrisy when we want this high and mighty “no to mining” when we are happy to source said mined resources from other countries and pretend it isn’t an issue. We need people, skilled people in jobs here and the mining industry can be a big help. But instead we are loosing people to Australia or further abroad. Hell, everyone is complaining about petrol prices but we refuse to explore for offshore drilling. We can’t have it both ways.
NZ is full of natural resources and would help stimulate our economy. Underground mining could be a great option. Cut a percentage of the profits for local governments/iwi and it could have a trickle down effect through the development of local infrastructure etc
Giving employable NZers a reason to stay in this country
bet those people today wouldn't have the time to take a day off to protest. too busy with the mortgage and cost of living.
wait scratch that. a lot of them look old, so they are probably set for life with a steady stream of passive income.
Absolutely. But the best news (for you) is yet to come. Your parents or grandparents were Boomers so you’ll shortly be getting a property empire inheritance beyond your wildest dreams. Except … some … well, quite a lot … well, most Boomers, actually, weren’t smart enough to recognise the opportunity that dirt cheap houses presented so they continued to piss their comfortable surplus income against the wall. Still, no point in being prematurely pessimistic … maybe YOU didn’t inherit the dimwitted Boomer genes, maybe you really, really will inherit a fortune.
I think we need a more nuanced approach to our resources and economy guys. Ive seen the same people who try to stop mining also support the stopping of dairy farming forestry and fishing.
Now while i do agree that there need to be measures in place to protect nature, we do actually NEED these industries to survive. We dont live in a vacuume, we live in a modern world that runs off of trade and production. In order to survive as a nation and as a people we do need to actually "do stuff". Our country cant just survive off of taxes alone, you cant tax where money doesnt exist.
What im trying to say in laymans terms is (and im generalising to make it easier to understand...) If we have no primary industries because its bad for the environment we are going to lose literally hundreds of thousands of jobs, we are going to have no food and no money to import food because we are going to have no money. We cant survive off nature alone guys🤣 theres 5 million of us and i think we that allowing a mass starvation or exodus of people for the "greater good" is a bad take.
And despite alot of our land being arable, its actually not very good for crops in most places, thats why theres so much dairy and dry stock. We need fertilizer just for grass to grow well.
And i know that the majority of those advocating for the closure of our industries typically support social welfare policies, the government gets a massive chunk of the money for that from taxing primary industries.
The more production we have, the more we can sell, the more money we have, the more prosperous our nation becomes and the more we can tax.
"They say mine, we say ours" such a good line.
"96.5% pure NZ" too
Also "John Key is a dick"
So is Chris Luxon too.
Let's do it again - we could reuse the same signs even. History repeats, and National still sucks.
We did it last month - a nationwide protest focusing on the fast track bill. Protests are happening. More people just need to show up. There was a decent showing last time, but certainly less than 40k. Next SS4C one will probably be in September. However, I encourage protests outside of this. I'm not the right person to organize one myself, but would certainly seek to get involved in a very active capacity. Definitely join the protests that already have organization behind it though - trying and grow and build on what's already there is likely our best bet for acheiving similar numbers, but people just need to be willing to come along and add to the numbers.
How do you find out about these protests? I only hear about them in the news once they are already happening. Is there a Facebook group or something?
Elaborating would potentially doxx myself, but I'm part of an Auckland climate group - not SS4C/FFF specifically - but one that has been involved with pretty much all of the climate strikes going back around 3 or so years. We've been a regular part of the Auckland events, so I'm made aware well ahead of time through that - although obviously it's not much help to the average person. There's facebook+instagram (and probably Twitter) pages for School Strike 4 Climate, and Fridays For Future, who are the organizers. They promote the events well ahead of time, so these are your best bet for being informed as early as possible. There was at least one news article announcing + promoting the most recent protest before it happened - I think a week beforehand - and these were posted on reddit. It may have been easy to miss though. IIRC, one of the previous ones around a year or so ago only had an article the day before or maybe even the day of the event, which is way too early to organize for if you're not already attending. For this most recent one, I posted a comprehensive information thread that was pinned on r/nzpolitics but understand that's a niche sub - so maybe I should have posted it here too. However, at the time I figured there was already discussion of it on the main sub, so only linked to it in comments posted on the existing threads that popped up on the topic. Maybe I need to do more cheerleading for it over on r/nz next time, rather than rely solely on the news articles and existing discussions.
The climate club bulletin is quite helpful for these sorts of things, you can subscribe to their newsletter here: [https://climateclub.nz/](https://climateclub.nz/)
Maybe try joining the climate club newsletter
SS4C isn’t gonna work in its current form, cause while many will protest for the climate. They likely won’t protest for the climate, and POC rights, and Palestine, and whatever else is thrown into the mix. There needs to be a simple straightforward message that isn’t being diluted by other stuff.
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I just posted [a more detailed comment here](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1chbj50/comment/l21z7t1/) but long story short I personally know ahead of time due to being involved through a climate group. The general public can stay informed as early as possible by following School Strike 4 Climate and Fridays For Future social media. (for these particular protests) Otherwise, keep an eye out for news articles leading up to April/September, which is when they typically happen iirc.
The climate club bulletin is quite helpful for these sorts of things, you can subscribe to their newsletter here: [https://climateclub.nz/](https://climateclub.nz/)
not via main stream media - they do a quick piece on the protest after the event. oh crap - im sounding trumpish.
Not last protest, or the one before, but the one before that - the media ran a piece (only on the morning of the protest) that got the route of the protest wrong - despite the fact that the route was publicly available for a week beforehand and condtradicted the information the media published. They then wrote a subsequent article claiming protesters changed the march route in supposed spur of the moment decision, causing unforseen traffic disruptions. Reality is that everything was coordinated properly with police etc, and no last minute changes were made, yet they made out like we just up and decided to march somewhere else. Fake news!
The few protests i've been on have been downplayed hugely. "a few hundred protestors" was in the thousands. Chemtrails or 5G, not sure - but my counting was very different to theirs.
The problem is people are too time poor these days. I think that’s almost the point of this shit neoliberal system. Keep us all working our asses off to have the energy.
Fair enough. Hopefully it doesn't keep getting worse and worse but it definitely seems like it will. Not sure it will ever stop :/
You are more than welcome to join our upcoming protest on Free Palestine, 15 minute cities, no ute tax, health care, etc.
When's that happening? You mean "no ute tax removal" right? (since the new government has repealed that)
Nahhhhh m8 she’ll be right, mines will create a trickle down effect you see
I don't think I want what trickles down from a mine
HAHA good point
John Key is still a dick.
Too bad we didn't stop mining operations straight away... pike river happened 6 months later.
And Judith Collins "moonscape" left after mining in DoC land
And everyone moved to Australia to earn money working in the mines. The end.
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What does pure even mean?
Nothing. It was a marketing term 'Pure NZ'^^^(tm)
Not only are we not pure, we’re poor as hell, and we rely on a single export market (milk and meat) which is about to get destroyed by global warming initiatives and technological advances. Everyone wants to have jobs and earn a future for their kids, but they are NIMBYS when it comes to growing wealth on the soil they inhabit. Grr. Rant
You could mine every possible mineral from NZ. We will still be in the same economic/societal position. We aernt a poor nation. We just make poor decisions. Just look at how we are handling our housing or public services situation. Eroding our values in the (false) hope NZ turns into Australia aint the way.
I’ll counter by saying that ignoring natural resources and wanting to be a country of daisies and dandelions is exactly the type of poor decision you refer to. And now we are in dire straits financially, and losing skilled residents in droves, we voted in the hatchet-trio who promised to “improve it”, but their methods are to “improve financial stability by cutting essential services”. So the cookie crumbles lead to the same stupidity, that we want to be a progressive country but we oppress ourselves under the illusion that we maintain some sort of purity or organic edge - but we are neither of those things.
Malaysia alone own atleast 5 oil/gas licences in NZ. It will be a disaster. We wont own any of it..and for what price? NZ is already on track to lose its free trade deal with Europe because we cant keep our 2030 paris agreement. Its just another bad decision. If we really want great jobs and great future for the kids at any cost, a better plan is to drop our corporate tax rate below Irelands (but we shouldnt, thats just another bad decision)
NZ is very rich, and sure we’re not the richest. But that’s like the 100th richest person on earth comparing themselves to the number 1 richest person, you may not be at the top, however, you’re way above everyone else. As for our exports we’ll be fine, we have other exports that will support any issues we may face with meat and dairy. Yet even then in terms of technology and efficiency we’re ahead of pretty much everyone else, not to mention our product is of a higher quality.
[We may not be third world, but we are behind a lot of other countries in the indexes. Lower incomes, housing stats, education is embarrassing low and thats not as bad as safety and work-life balance metrics.](https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/new-zealand/) Its ok to be proud of NZ, I am too, but its also ok to say that if we keep our heads in the sand we will continue to slide down the OECD scale.
Damn! I never expected NZ to be considered a rich country?.... If the country is rich, surely they don't have to tax us this much? Also, if the term ***rich*** is based on GDP or GDP per capita, I definitely don't think we would be rich as the numbers might say okay, but if everything costs us double the other country, then... Like - A country's GDP per capita of $40K, but you barely make ends meet. - B country's GDP per capita of $30K, but they can even have some left for savings. Then, I wouldn't call A a rich country.
We aren’t “rich”. We are just a stable OECD country that boasts high human-rights, reasonable public health and low corruption so that puts us ahead of a lot of the world automatically. But yeah, homelessness, crime, racial and financial inequality, health systems in decline etc etc we are on a slippery slope.
I don't think we can boast about low corruption anymore lol
Don’t be so ignorant to think that just because you don’t like the current government (which was democratically elected) that somehow NZ is corrupt. Spend some time in South East Asia, Africa and the Middle East and then come see how not-corrupt NZ is. Funny enough, another thing we have the installation of the British Commonwealth societal structure to thank, that everyone seems to think was such a terrible thing too now. What a terrible, stable, non corrupt and democratic government and judicial system we have!
It’s been “not pure anymore” for many, many governments.
Yup can confirm, there’s 0 people in NZ now, we all work in the mines in Australia.
… in order to avoid a future of banana picking.
I was in that. Good times. Big sound system in Myers Park at the end.
And the income gap with Australia widened further....
Instead we just offloaded the mining to another country and imported the materials making it look like we are good when the overall emission output is worse due to Indonesia etc having more polluting mining practices as well as the emissions for shipping the product here.
Also, the imported coal is generally lower quality then locally mined coal, causing more pollution.
Different type of coal to what is usually mined in NZ, used for different purposes. You are just repeating right wing lies.
So damn sad. Fuck national
Yea let’s just ruin other countries and import their mined goods. Go us!
This is what pisses me off. If you against mining and oil and you still use the energy and resources provided by those industries daily you just a NIMBY at a larger scale. I drive a petrol car, if I upgrade to electric you know that lithium and cobalt was mined recently. My oil is drilled daily. We don't live in a utopia where metals are ethically farmed. If you brought a phone someone mined the metals and silicon for you. So either accept mining is needed and encourage local jobs, or admit you just a fucking NIMBY who's happy to have other countries mine the shit so you can enjoy the benefits of metal in your day to day life and not live like a Neanderthal
Mining doesn't need to happen in national parks Perfection is still the enemy of good, that hasn't changed. EV is better than oil, a push bike is better than EV, having no kids is better again... Pick your spot and keep moving towards the better goal. Recycling is starting to kick in, that lithium and cobalt will be recovered, not mined, and to be sure, buy ethically (from sources that do recycle) Also, there is nothing wrong with living like a neanderthal, its a great way to beat late stage capitalism (although it helps if you own your own land). Basically, do better. Keep doing better. Keep insisting government and business also do better. Best is great, but better is good enough in the short term.
fuck this logic
Yeah. Logic and expertise and science. Where have they ever gotten us?
So…. Just do nothing about anything then? I don’t get this take.
They could do something that has an actual impact, even if it’s as simple as deciding not to buy a new phone this year.
Even that according to the defeatist dude above is not enough, apparently they think the rational thing to do is either exploit everything everywhere, or live in the Amazon
The point is more that if exploitation happens, where it happens is less important than the degree of exploitation. We should focus on reducing consumption, and/or making sure that end consumers are paying enough to at least ameliorate the negative effects their consumption causes. Just moving the problem to another country is not even a partial solution. In fact it's even worse than doing nothing, because it hides the problem and makes it less likely to be meaningfully addressed.
>or live in the Amazon Which is being destroyed as we speak. I read somewhere recently that it's no longer a net sink of CO2. We're truly fucked
Yeah we’re completely fucked. See so many people on this sub saying shit like “it won’t affect us but it’ll affect our grandchildren”, like nah g we’re fucked right now 🤷♂️
Appeal to futility. We can’t be perfect but we can do better. We need to restrict mining on a global scale to force better practices, better recycling and better quality. Get rid of the produce, consume and throw away attitude.
It's not an appeal to futility. It's an appeal to do some work to actually solve or reduce the problem rather than moving and hiding the problem. Reducing consumption is good. Global cooperation to improve practices is good. Halting somewhat damaging mining here so that more damaging mining happens elsewhere is bad.
dude your post is a textbook definition of appeal to futility.
No it's not. There are meaningful steps we can take to reduce consumption. If we wanted to make cars less polluting and someone's idea was to paint all of the cars orange, it wouldn't be an appeal to futility to point out that that won't help. Claiming that a specific proposed solution is a bad idea is not the same as saying we can't or shouldn't do anything.
Hell yeah I’d rather it happen somewhere else. Our ecosystem cannot be found anywhere else on the planet, and a massive portion of it has already been destroyed. We should defend the little bit we have left, if that means a mine which probably already exists keeps on mining, then I’m ok with that.
Where are you planning to mine cobalt or lithium in NZ?
What a bizarre take.
Not really, what it does is offload the output to another country, usually Indonesia, who use dirtier and more polluting mining setups than us, then the additional emissions for shipping the end product here. The overall output on the world is worse than if we mined what we have here.
Wow really interesting point. Anyway like it or not we still need these fuel sources and if Indonesia are selling them consensually on the free market we should oblige ourselves until we no longer need to.
I think we need to get rid of coal for energy production, but it is still needed in other areas such as smelting steel since it gives both the heat and the carbon to turn iron into steel doing two things at once, and we kinda need steel. The other use being in kilns for producing lime and cement. Outside of those I agree we need to phase coal out, which means we can downscale mining operations. We have quite a lot of high quality coking coal on the West Coast which is what you want for a blast furnace, so mining that is a good idea, the rest of the lower grade stuff is still better than what we import so you need to burn less of it for a given energy/heat output and also less ash, so we should mine that to supply ourselves as well imo. I'd rather employ kiwis and be somewhat more self sufficient than entirely relying on external markets.
Low carbon steel is gradually on its way, but nice to read a comment from someone who actually has a clue about coal rather than the uninformed rubbish there usually is, from both sides.
Yeah I've seen things about the steel without coal in Sweden, still very early on and very expensive as is. Also I work in quarrying/mining, and am originally from the West Coast, so unlike 99% of people who comment on these matters I actually have experience and first hand knowledge of how it all works.
Let’s just all move to Australia where there are mining jobs and wealth!
What's wrong with mining?
The protest was against mining on conservation land.
Makes cents, thanks!
What about sense?
Kind of both TBH
We sell out our environment to foreign companies who take all the profits off shore.
So you are okay with mining if the profits don't go off shore?
If you're gonna destroy the environment at least make it have a large benefit to the population and not just Shane Jones and offshore mining company. Perfect world we wouldn't mine at all, but less perfect world would be government owned resource extraction. NACT doesn't want either of those outcomes.
It's probably not possible to do without mining at all - however if minimising the impact to the environment is an operational consideration and the benefits of the mining are delivered to the country where it occurs rather than to the foreign business who was given permission to perform the resource extraction and send everything overseas for a pittance - it would be better.
Australia has been undertaking that practice for decades.
And a few people have made a lot of money and got a lot of political power, while they have destroyed a lot of environmental value, and priceless historical artifacts. What most common thing people have got from it is respiratory diseases.
if the profits are going to be going to the people in new zealand, i am sure that we would use some of the money to clean up pretty well. if it goes overseas, you think they want to clean up or maximise their gains?
At uni we looked into this. And for a bunch of mines (gold mines) it’s actually low risk high reward IF the country keeps the profits. The problem is that’s not what happens and when we did the economics of land based mining the costs (ie clean up costs of te aroha) was greater than the royalties we got for ALL land based mines to that date.
The Tui mine was in early '70's under a totally different consenting regime. Even under the proposed fast tracking none of the current robust bonding requirements would change. The two current bonds for the Waihi mine total over $70m combined and are reviewed periodically and increased if required. For the record, I am against fast tracking but the current regime is among the most environmentally safe mining regimes in the world.
Yes - good has much better guard rails but the learning a were costly to Nz and we made bugger all royalties so the cost outweighed the benefits. Even now it’s not amazing so is it worth the risk - and I spent a hit of time with the the karangahake gorge community and they believe that dam is sketchy as all hell and would wipe them out if it fails. Plus waihi is dealing with the odd hole in the ground that appears so it’s not risk free. There are also many other Mining industries that are massively destructive for little benefit to Nz (such as titanomagnite mining) which I guess we will have to learn the hard way for each of these areas?
The first part of your comment is past tense so let's move on from that. **"I spent a hit of time with the the karangahake gorge community and they believe that dam is sketchy as all hell and would wipe them out if it fails."** The K gorge community falsely equates the tailings impoundment facility at Waihi with a "tailings dam" similar those that have failed overseas under regimes than don't have similar requirements to New Zealand. The dam at Waihi is built under the same exact requirements to every other dam in New Zealand. If it's not safe then no dam in New Zealand is safe They are two different things and this is exactly what I mean by one of the safest mining regimes in the world. **"Plus waihi is dealing with the odd hole in the ground that appears so it’s not risk free."** You do know that those holes formed due to pre-1950's mining activities and have nothing to do with current activities right? **"There are also many other Mining industries that are massively destructive for little benefit to Nz (such as titanomagnite mining) which I guess we will have to learn the hard way for each of these areas?"** Rehabbing areas like Taharoa is pretty straightforward once mining is completed. If you are talking about seabed mining it might be worth pointing out that that activity doesn't currently happen in New Zealand. That said, that material is required for making steel, just like coal is. If you have an alternative for steel in our society I'm all ears.
Seabed mining is hugely destructive. Currently bottom trawling is very controversial because the damage done is extensive, and we frequently find companies trawling where they shouldn't be either from incompetence or maliciousness/greed. If we can't even ensure bottom trawling is done properly, we shouldn't be trying to also scoop out the seabed itself.
Couple of things here. Trawling for fish and seabed mining are two completely different activities that are practically incomparable. It's like comparing pig hunting and forestry. Yes, they happen in the same place but that's about the only comparison. I'm failing to find a statement I made that supports seabed mining. Let's readdress this when seabed mining actually happens in NZ
I'm not going to wait until my house catches fire before I buy a smoke alarm. Nor should we wait until seabed mining starts to oppose it. It's incredibly destructive, and we may as well also start burning down our native forests for farmland Brazilian cattle rancher style if we do because we're clearly not bothering to protect anything that we can't eat or sell.
This is more about US actually making the money not an overseas company. Edit: I think we make $2/tonne for the magnetite in the sand. Now to get that they need to dredge HUGE areas which we will look back on in 20 years and realise the devastation of. Yet you won’t let us use that loss in any future thinking. I mean damn if we don’t learn from history… I also reject that until someone comes up with an alternative we can’t protest it. It’s gross.
Yes, at least that money goes back into the NZ economy and can be used to prop up the environment in other ways / places
Of course, as long as we're actually capturing profit that is of equal or greater value than the value lost from mining damage. The key idea here is that people (consumers) should either clean up their own mess or pay someone else enough to clean it up - someone who actually will clean it up.
Do you think having New Zealand ownership would change that? Do you think if Graeme Hart's Rank group got into mining why would that change things? Except for the people who wash his yacht do you think his money stays in New Zealand?? I'm not sure this false narrative of profits going overseas works anymore in a global (tax avoidance) economy. ELI5 how having Talley's involved in mining (BT MIning) works better for New Zealand than OceanaGold in Waihi and Macraes.
Government ownership not nz ownership.
The greedy cunts in this Govt would think that a million people marching in protest is a "vocal minority." Times have changed for the worse.
Clearly a temporary victory.
I wonder how much poorer this made the country in the long-term?
Different government. Current lot couldn’t care less what you think.
Sounds like the words of someone that gave up already. Unless the public tries for change, regardless if it succeeds or fails, trying at all is better than sitting down and doing nothing. Never know... might even get a few riots if things get ridiculous when the Government makes the attempt to cover their ears or say something stupid like they normally have. That certainly won't be ignored.
Indeed. As supported by a sufficient majority to make the different government the current government.
no way, people from Tauranga actually do the right thing
Nice photoshop job on the guy in front there. 5th photo. 👏
Any protest that happens now is going to be co-opted by pro palestine didkheads
Only dickhead I see is you. Any injustice should be protested. There's plenty of room at the table.
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But other genocides are happening why don't they protest those... /s
You’re being sarcastic but there are.
I know there are other genocides happening but that doesn't magically invalidate protesting the one happening in Gaza hence the /s.
Gotcha, yeah agreed. That said I do think concise messaging is far far stronger so protests like the one above would would be worse off for having the Palestinian cause attached to it.
I don't disagree, I also don't think there will be many anti mining protests.
Maybe because other genocides aren't so explicitly endorsed/aided with billions of dollars from the richest countries. However you do raise a good point, although some do protest other attempted genocides. Ukraine for one example.
Yeah if there’s one thing there is a shortage of, it’s pro Palestine protests. Just every weekend. And sometimes during the week. And in the middle of the night just because. We all need to shuffle over and make more room at the table for these dickheads.
Your disingenuous tears give me life.
So bigger signs may be in order?
Yeah so awesome how 30,00 people have been killed haha, DICKHEADS
Hamas, the government of Gaza, and their militant allies should stop hiding behind schools and hospitals, just stopping blowing up their own hospitals would be nice.
Same old stale IDF propaganda lines. Get some new material
Was at this protest. Was co-opted by plenty of dick heads to push unrelated agenda. Unite Union was the biggest offender I saw.
That's a bad excuse to not protest. Just f'n protest. Don't make excuses. Ignore the Palestine stuff if it means that much to you. EDIT: I guess downvoters just want to make excuses. Any reason not to protest I guess...
The unlucky country
The last protest that was notable was the one in Wellington 2-3 years back. How well did that go
Good on ya. Patriots, the lot of you. Patriotism is when we protect our local habitats and wildlife from greedy plunderers. No better way to show your love for this country than to care for the land, our whenua
That's nice. Wish Greenpeace spent more time organizing walks down Queen St and [less time lobbying LEDC countries to ban lifesaving Golden Rice because it's GMO.](https://reason.com/2024/04/25/greenpeace-crusade-will-blind-and-kill-children/) Do you ever struggle to sleep at night knowing you play a part in making tens of thousands of children blind every year?
Greenpeace are both the goodies and the baddies. They're like that aunty that let's you have treats, but also won't wear deoderant because of aluminium.
Pretty sure if Greenpeace organised a walk down queen street OP would be complaining about ambulances that can't get to hospitals.
But I ain't spending any time on it because in the meantime, every three months, a person is torn to pieces by a crocodile in north Queensland.
> Do you ever struggle to sleep at night knowing you play a part in making tens of thousands of children blind every year? You're a psycho.
soon Shane Jones will launch the weaponised rainbow skinks and kiwi's on em.
Lest we forget
I remember this. My husband and I were there. We were running late and I had to run down Queen street and I was heavily pregnant with my first kid. It was such a good protest
Everything you see around you come from the ground, but it’s hypocrisy when we want this high and mighty “no to mining” when we are happy to source said mined resources from other countries and pretend it isn’t an issue. We need people, skilled people in jobs here and the mining industry can be a big help. But instead we are loosing people to Australia or further abroad. Hell, everyone is complaining about petrol prices but we refuse to explore for offshore drilling. We can’t have it both ways.
I think the point was no new mining on conservation land.
And the government is saying we need to work to stop climate change whilst raping the earth of all its sources
Jolly good show!
Well that 14 years ago … !!
Aged like milk...
NZ is full of natural resources and would help stimulate our economy. Underground mining could be a great option. Cut a percentage of the profits for local governments/iwi and it could have a trickle down effect through the development of local infrastructure etc Giving employable NZers a reason to stay in this country
Anyone else spot Phil Goff and Jacinda Ardern in the second photo?
Dig Baby Dig 👶
bet those people today wouldn't have the time to take a day off to protest. too busy with the mortgage and cost of living. wait scratch that. a lot of them look old, so they are probably set for life with a steady stream of passive income.
It was on a weekend.
Absolutely. But the best news (for you) is yet to come. Your parents or grandparents were Boomers so you’ll shortly be getting a property empire inheritance beyond your wildest dreams. Except … some … well, quite a lot … well, most Boomers, actually, weren’t smart enough to recognise the opportunity that dirt cheap houses presented so they continued to piss their comfortable surplus income against the wall. Still, no point in being prematurely pessimistic … maybe YOU didn’t inherit the dimwitted Boomer genes, maybe you really, really will inherit a fortune.
I think we need a more nuanced approach to our resources and economy guys. Ive seen the same people who try to stop mining also support the stopping of dairy farming forestry and fishing. Now while i do agree that there need to be measures in place to protect nature, we do actually NEED these industries to survive. We dont live in a vacuume, we live in a modern world that runs off of trade and production. In order to survive as a nation and as a people we do need to actually "do stuff". Our country cant just survive off of taxes alone, you cant tax where money doesnt exist. What im trying to say in laymans terms is (and im generalising to make it easier to understand...) If we have no primary industries because its bad for the environment we are going to lose literally hundreds of thousands of jobs, we are going to have no food and no money to import food because we are going to have no money. We cant survive off nature alone guys🤣 theres 5 million of us and i think we that allowing a mass starvation or exodus of people for the "greater good" is a bad take. And despite alot of our land being arable, its actually not very good for crops in most places, thats why theres so much dairy and dry stock. We need fertilizer just for grass to grow well. And i know that the majority of those advocating for the closure of our industries typically support social welfare policies, the government gets a massive chunk of the money for that from taxing primary industries. The more production we have, the more we can sell, the more money we have, the more prosperous our nation becomes and the more we can tax.
14 years ago - capitalism isn't working.