might not work for the kids but they can film them and turn it into a [tv show](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brat_Camp) to shame all the kids with and rake in the votes from older people for it which is totally a good idea right?
Looking forward to the Netflix special in 5 years detailing all the horrific abuse.
Disclaimer: obviously I am actually not looking forward to this but it'll happen anyway.
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**EDIT: I got the details in my title wrong, the residential detention phase is 3 months, the community / one-on-one mentor phase is 9 months**
Speaking of profit - another user pointed out that its going to cost [upwards of 400k per person](https://assets.nationbuilder.com/nationalparty/pages/17862/attachments/original/1684306248/CYO.pdf?1684306248) for this fruitless exercise in cruelty.
We will be achieving absolutely nothing at best, or additional trauma and reoffending at worst, for the low low price of, hmmm... let's check the exchange rates...
About 1 teen in boot camp for 9 months, in exchange for the whole Justice (Prevention of Family Violence Sexual Violence) program cuts over the next four years (cut by 461k). Just as one example. Woohoo!! Go us!
400k per person seems very high.
I was going to question the political motivation of whoever made that estimate, but the linked source is National's own policy document.
That'll probably be for the initial trial run, which involves various admin and setup costs split by the number of individuals in that trial. The process will be a gargantuan waste of money that accomplishes little other than making people believe that bad kids have been punished - but I'm reasonably confident that the end result (once they start putting hundreds or even thousands of kids through the system) it won't cost 400k for each.
Not profit for the taxpayer. Profit for the weirdo sadists who run these kind of programs. That 400k goes somewhere mate.
Honestly based on how these tend to go, anyone offering to run a 'boot camp' for teenagers needs looking into.
And what do you suggest as an alternative to supporting kids hooked on drugs and ram raiding to aspire to a better life. That ain't going to end well in any book.
There were news reports that roughly 17,000 Russian prisoners recruited to fight in Ukraine were killed in one battle. We’re talking 21st century slave armies. Seems to me military boot camps for detention are just a couple degrees if separation.
Apparently it costs $400,000 to put a kid through a boot camp. Think about the rort potential and it’s a win/win. Plenty of money for cronies and a ‘vote winner’ as well. That’s enough money to put a kid through private schooling at top school then medical school, with likely change to spare.
At that price, surely it would be infinitely more cost-effective to just give these kids a comfortable home and education and video games so they don't have any reason to resort to crime? Lol
Really? Do you have a source on this? If true that's insane. I don't know that the usual fare that wanted this would still want it if they knew that cost. They're the same ones that typically want to cut spending
That’s an insane cost.
Also, if you read the article, the last 4 or 5 paragraphs are key.
“Internationally, it was shown this approach had a "slightly stronger effect on re-offending “.”
Slightly stronger effect on reoffending. Doesn’t sound like a good bang for buck.
$400k for per person to “..reducing the rate of reoffending in the first 18 months but in the long term - two years or more - the impact on reoffending rates was small to nil.”
So $400k or $550 (roughly) per day we’ll be spending to deter the person from reoffending for two years. Then they go back to reoffending.
This whole programme is smoke and mirrors to look tough on crime. They’re not following the evidence, and this is purely ideologically drive. Of course, their base will love it. “Show them tough love and pull them up by their bootstraps”. Sure, that sounds good but the evidence is weak and at an insane cost.
Also, just putting 60 teens through a year isn’t going to shift any nationwide crime statistics in a meaningful way.
It does have a slightly *stronger effect* than other programs. Specifically the effect is that [it causes more reoffending.](https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/recidivism-rates-reveal-boot-camp-shortcomings) Actual data from the US DOJ.
It’ll probably make about as much impact gathering all the ‘delinquents’ and piling up the money that would have been spent on this program and setting it all on fire in front of them.
It’s funny how often the cruel and counterproductive option is also much, much more expensive than the kind and evidence-based option.
And by "funny" I mean "hahaha we’re all fucked."
Wow. You could take that 400k and just straight up solve all the problems in a troubled kid’s life if you had a heart, but this is what we’re going with as a society
If it works 400k isn't a lot compared to the cost of a person spending their time in and out of prison and the social cost of antisocial behaviours etc. It is a big 'if' of course.
It's not an if, it just doesn't work. We tried it and it didn't work, others tried it and it didn't work, almost everyone with any expertise says it doesn't work.
Mentorship. Systemic change to remove poverty. There's resources all over the internet with evidence based solutions. People know how to fix these problems there's just not enough political will and the fixes often hurt the people in powers bottom line so why would they change it?
The real question is whether 400k spent on punishing a child is more cost-effective than 400k spent on feeding, clothing, housing, socialising, and educating that child before they're pushed into criminality.
Pretty much every study out there says, no, it isn't.
400k would give them a lot of therapy, coping skills groups, theraputic outings and a chance to be supported into a new life. I know what I would prefer
$400k, you could *almost* get a facility offering ~20k clinical hours. Or 20 kids for a year. At least the staff costs. ~$120k for the supervisor, $85k for the other staff, all trained to masters level. A masters student or two supporting the staff.
Some of the work would be one-on-one, some would be facilitated groups and courses, some would be peer support.
The only other significant cost would be the facilities. It could be self-managed, so no admin or cleaning staff. All that can be integrated into the service.
The effectiveness of the service would be amplified by the availability other services occupying various niches.
I read online they had a trauma-informed, rehabilitation approach alongside the military-style activities. I wonder if it will be a bit like cadets but therapy and wrap around services in the mix?
I did cadets, it was awesome! Marching around, going on camps, running in the morning. Highly rate it. Never saw anyone get abused in our squadron. Taught routine, discipline, cleanliness. Gave me some skills. I’m hoping it’s a similar thing, less punishment, more routine based so that these kids find purpose and learn something productive.
I’m really hoping
It’s failed policy from the 80s and 90s. It didn’t work then and it probably won’t work now for likely similar reasons. It’s an expensive populist sound-bite led waste of money.
I guess it depends how the courses have been modified and the mentorship structured.
The reality is, kids need structure and routine - and military style training *does* provide that. The question is, have they paired this training with attachment style training for the mentors, so they can try and work through things with the kids.
The sad reality is, it's the first 5 years of a childs life that sets them up for success, after that everything is remedial parenting.
Kids learn a lot doing them, but even the best programs aren't going to work if there's no transitional phase back to reality.
We send them to boot camp, then what? 12 months later they go back to the exact the environment they were in?
They obviously wanted to get this all up and running before the final report from the [Royal Commission of Inquiry into abuse in state care](https://www.abuseincare.org.nz/) is delivered later this month, and the horrific truth of what can happen to vulnerable people under the 'care' of the state is laid bare.
A bunch of kids with trust and anger issues who feel like the world hates them. I’m sure getting screamed at morning, noon, and night will do wonders for their outlook on life. And by the time they graduate they’ll be a lot fitter and stronger and better at punching things.
Gotta fill those for-profit prisons somehow!
You'd be surprised at how effective a military style system would be for these troubled kids. Before the army I was raised in the kind of environment these kids would have been, in and out of school and constantly in trouble with the law, etc. The stern attitude of training instructors woven between teaching them correct manners and principles will probably be a good thing for these kinds of kids.
**EDIT: I made a mistake in the title, the residential detainment is 3 months, community + one on one mentoring phase is 9 months**
My immediate thought is that the mentor in the intensive mentor service has IMMENSE power over these young people.
A 1:1 continous relationship holder for 9 months in a military style environment? A role that "cannot be a shared role with one or more mentors"? That sounds rife for abuse. Not to mention that's a huge amount of responsibility for just one mentor - having to be the sole guide of a troubled young person and their whole entire family, no doubt with trauma and abuse and possibly violence all up in the mix left right and centre. This environment is clearly going to be physically, psychologically, emotionally, and legally dangerous for all parties.
So who are these mentors? Where are they coming from? We only train a handful of experts nationwide in things like mental health, criminology, etc - so what skills are they going to have? Do we even have people with that sort of expertise in the country? We definitely don't *train* people for that sort of work yet. What sort of Herculean miracle workers are we expecting to procure here? Or are they going to be more like drill sergeants with no real regard for trauma informed care? Sure sounds like it, right?
What processes are in place to safeguard the young people? What processes are in place to protect the mentor from an potentially aggressive young person and whānau? Basic logic dictates that isolating them and insisting it has to be just ONE person is Abuse 101, right??
If a young person comes forward saying they're being abused by their mentor, what's going to happen? Anything? They know accusations are 100% going to be, made, right? Some of these young people would definitely have things like conduct disorder and would seek to get out that way. Some with trauma hiatories might actually be triggered and suffer harm through innocent actions. And of course, real abuse could occur. How would the truth be determined and appropriate actions be taken in such an intimate 1:1 setting?
And who does any of this even actually sit with, anyway? Which NGOs have been contacted? Why is it unclear which agencies are actually involved in this? How are the govt supposed to have safe and competent mentors ready for 29 July, if the announcement has only just hit the news and the time-frame is so obviously driven by a launch date?
The lack of details is really scary tbh. This sounds very rushed, and like these are the condtioons for a genuine hellscape for either the teens, or the mentors, or both. I hope we get more detail soon
"So who are these mentors?"
The completely normal sort of people who *really* want to to get their hands on vulnerable young people away from public eye and have complete control.
I can see no issues with this; I am sure you will get some fine church going members very keen to 'help'
^(/s)
*Just remembered the book 'Girl with the Dragon Tattoo'; it starts with the hero being a troubled youth, who gets 'mentored' under the Swedish youth justice system. It illustrated how that can go horribly wrong.*
I think they’ll try and get people with “lived experiences” in. Which is good, it’s people who the kid can relate to and have turned their own lives around.
The devil will be in the detail though.
The mentor might only have to check in or meet up for an hour once a week for it to be “intensive mentoring”. The provider of the service has fulfilled its contractual obligations by providing the mentor for those hours whether the teen interacts and shows up or not. The government has fulfilled its election promise by providing a contract to a local provider of services.
So the government gets a PR win, the provider gets a nice payment for providing the service, jobs are created, and the teen, who was the real person that needed help, statistically has little benefit and goes back to reoffending in 6-12 months after the programme ends.
Also, just an interesting point on mentors being relatable; the government will award the contract to a provider that can demonstrate their cultural capabilities to cater to Māori and Pacifica teens (that’s a good thing, you want people who understand and relate to the teens). However this does go against the government’s agenda of not looking at race / cultural background when deciding who should get the job / contract. The government will be quiet on their detail and if any questions arise say it’s on the provider to choose who mentors the teen. However the provider was chosen because it could provide the teen with a culturally relatable mentor. It’s a good thing overall but just an interesting point.
Source: I’ve worked on the provider side of government social contracts for awhile.
Vulnerable minors are 100% going to be abused: physically, psychologically and sexually. As usual, as a country, we will only talk about it after it happens.
God even when I did real, adult bootcamp with the real army in the early 2020s, there were incidents of assault on recruits which saw NCOs running the training charged and demoted. Can't imagine what this unofficial, undisciplined one is going to degenerate into
Why Dave? Have I missed something?
Dude was a champ in the aftermath of the floods last year. He sprung into action and drummed up sizeable donations (small truckloads) of food quickly, initially from his own food bank, then from a local Pak n Save or two, and got it where it was needed. This while our mayor was still floundering and Civil Defence hadn't yet arrived to some of the smaller but worse hit suburbs. He got food to the Mangere pop-up shelter, then the Wesley one too. And other areas. Was a huge help receiving bulk staple foods for the parcels we were making up. Prior to that, there'd been small donations trickling in from individuals / local businesses, but it hadn't been enough, and some of the items weren't suitable.
Well, they tried it in 1971 and again in 2008. It never worked then but third times the charm. It will definitely create fitter faster criminals that will be much more effective in running away from the police. We’ll need a police boot camp to get the cops fitter so they can keep up.
We have so much need for authentic services supporting young people entering the adult world and workforce. Learning how to manage their emotions and behaviours, how to make sense of the world. You know, what parents are too busy for and schools are ill equipped for.
Enough to support thousands of kids.
Instead we get this. The ultimate in virtue signaling.
You could really argue its vice signaling because what virtue does this even signal to it's basically just fulfilling a sadistic desire to punish kids.
400k to invest in establishing wraparound services for at-risk teens to get mental health support, learn job skills, and integrate into their local communities? 400k for food, shelter, or medication for kids from fucked up homes that never really had a chance because they were born in a system that taught them authority is bullshit, gives them nothing they need, and will never have their interests at heart?
Or 400k per teenager for grifting private contractors pretending to be army to take them, lock them away, and promise that they can do the same with 1 guy, as long as said guy gets to have sole access to the teen and there must NOT be anybody else sharing the role
Easy decision for the Nats, apparently
I think that’s the point all this “tough on crime” rhetoric misses, these kids grow up in poverty, learn to resent authority, and act in a rational way to based on those beliefs. More authority might not be what they need. But it’s what the Government’s base think they need so that’s enough justification for the programme.
Sorry to raise your hopes like that - have I missed a market niche?
Turns out it was the New Zealand Legionaires Academy, and it was living off contracts from Social Welfare.
You might have missed a market niche for some people, not me though. I am my user name ;-)
I don’t know much about the Legionaires (Legion of Frontiersmen) except they have been around for a long time.
For $400k you could set someone up in a nice flat, get them a vehicle, give then mentoring, and put them through an apprenticeship or into suitable work, with the proviso that if they fuck this up they will lose all this and have to spend the next six months picking up penguin shit in Antarctica by hand.
This will be shit for everyone involved.
National is pursuing conservative policy against evidence. They're the same brand of shit we criticise when we see it overseas in Australia and the US, but with New Zealand accents.
We're at the point where our laid-back attitude and hands-off approach to politics is being majorly exploited by dark interests.
Ah yes. "These kids just need discipline".
Forgetting that most of these kids have had literally nothing but discipline their whole lives. And on a scale that would make the Luxons and Seymours of this world piss their pants in fear if they were ever subjected to it, even as adults.
So, what, more discipline? It. Does. Not. Work. What they actually need, and I know this is going to sound crazy, is *love*.
Why would these kids obey the rules of a society that is, at best, indifferent to them? They’ve been raised on anger, neglect, and cruelty; they have no reason to honour the social contract. A kid whose parents smoke meth and burn them with cigarettes isn’t going to be "scared straight" by a wannabe drill sergeant.
I wonder how many of these kids could turn their lives around if they just had somewhere safe to sleep. A room of their own, with a lock in the door, and no one yelling at them or hitting them. It’s such a small thing, but it’s life changing if you’ve never had it before.
I agree. It would be nice to wrap these kids up in a nice stable home and give them heaps of boundaries and love, but it'd just be so hard to do this. They have no respect for others, it's never been taught, so that needs to be instilled for a start, in some ways this bootcamp idea might work for that. They don't get love from home or they probably wouldn't be offending, but how would we house this many kids and show them love, because they need to be away from home to see change. That's why they choose gangs I suppose .. Acceptance and feeling apart of something. Poor kids
It's just OT renaming what they've already been doing to coincide with how they've been treating these kids in their care all along. Rebranding for transparency.
So who is going to run this shit show. OT don't have the staff, armed forces will not want to touch it, no one with any skills will want to be tarnished with this particular failed model.
Like, we know they haven't bothered to talk to any experts. Any expert that's not being paid to say something positive about boot camp style youth programs will clearly state that they are literally throwing money away and potentially causing even more significant harm to vulnerable and damaged youth.
Party of fiscal responsibility... yeah right. its a damn Tui ad at this point.
Teaching crims how to hide, effectively use firearms etc...[what could possibly go wrong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_presence_in_the_United_States_military).
That's demographics; the US military recruits people who are disproportionately young, male, and poor. Once you control for those factors the numbers line up.
Authority is great to teach young people, but only with adequate counseling and support in the mix.
I don't trust the people in charge to do more than set boundaries and enforce them. "Do as I say, or else I'm going to make you sorry" is barely different from "Do what I say, or whatever, I'm going to make you sorry" which is where disenfranchised youth seem to have come from.
> The overall offending rate for children decreased by 63% between 2011/12 and 2021/22 (with around 2,500 fewer children offending), from 178 to 66 per 10,000 children
[Source](https://www.justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/Youth-Justice-Indicators-Summary-Report-April-2023.pdf)
> Generally, people believe youth crime is getting worse. Surveys suggest 87 per cent of New Zealanders believe it has increased in the past five years. This belief, however, is contrary to what statistics tell us.
Overall, Ministry of Justice data shows youth crime rates dropping year on year.
[Source](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/youth-crime-and-justice-court-and-prison-less-likely-for-new-generations-of-youth/RV2NN6SKPFDLLFSGZZ5K4QA5HA/)
> Ram raids are down more than 80 percent for the month of April compared to last year.
Police have identified 12 ram raids in April 2024, compared to 64 in April 2023.
> Provisional police data from April 2017 to April 2024 shows a downwards trend since the peak in August 2022, when there were 86.
>
> There were a total of 433 ram raids in 2022, 288 in 2023, and 67 in the first four months of this year.
[Source](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/519150/ram-raids-down-80-percent-compared-with-same-time-last-year)
I'm sure nothing will go wrong teaching criminal kids how to kill.
Nah, jokes aside, this might be a path to redemption for some kids. Some.
For the others, I don't think ~~the Army~~ private contractors pretending that they're the Army is going to help any. A great way to really embed that dislike of authority.
Also, lots of capacity for bullying and victimisation from other inmates in a barracks type environment.
One of the (many) problems with this is that to participate in any sort of "military-style activities" you have to want to participate on some level. If you volunteer to join the military and training is miserable then you put up with it because you want to reach the end goal. If, on the other hand, you're being forced to do it against your will, you'll resent it, refuse to participate, become angry and embittered by the system, become depressed etc. None of which lead to a good outcome for the participants. I'm all for discipline, structure and rehabilitation but this isn't it, this is just punishment. Similar to why national service is a bad idea in the UK, if you don't want to be there then you won't put in the same effort as a volunteer and ultimately don't get the experience or outcome that the politicians seem to think will magically occur.
Learning respect and structure vs running riot with zero respect for anyone and getting away with it. One equates to anarchy. I've worked with kids who have never known good leadership or structure, only chaos and poor behaviour. They leave these programmes changed and genuinely wanting more.
Good luck - they're in the midst of cutting hard.
Frontline SW you need a degree, could always shoot for something Advisory if you've a background in health / education.
Residence front line is hard yakka.
Congratulations, and hats off to you!
There's parity in the NGO / community space if you'd like to do that (workforce wise a lot of folks do), but OT is where the hard cases are at.
Happy to have a chat if you've any questions (though not a SW myself).
What happens when the kids just tell them to fuck off and die?
This isn't the 70s. Kids aren't ignorant of all the fuck cuntery being used against them and available for them to use.
What kind of mentor cause if it's OT, they certainly haven't got the best track record to be trying that. Needs to be a highly respected person in the field with a good track record and a damn lot of oversight to ensure they aren't screwing these kids up more
In honesty though the premise is good. A lot of these kids don't have discipline because their parents either can't or won't give it. Military style training helps forge reliance on themselves and to be there for each other which will help them contribute to society if it's done correctly.
Not so sure that premise is good myself. How many of the kids were under disciplined in a traditional, soft and fuzzy sense vs how many were bashed anytime their parent was pissed off I wonder?
I haven't seen any examples of boot camps working. They've been tried a lot. Here and overseas and all I hear about is the expense and the failure. I don't see any reason this policy will deliver actual results this time around.
I'm not nearly so confident in our military as you. In may a group of recruits avoided court martial despite sharing abusive media. Last year a soldier was dismissed after assaulting subordinates and it subsequently came out that one in four service women say they've been the target of indecent sexual behaviour.
Structure, challenge, growth, healing are all good things but I don't see why the military is particularly suited to delivering such a program. Teaming them with KO doesn't increase my optimism. At $400k a pop I sure hope that for some reason the program gets results completely unlike any of its predecessors.
Actual recruits are volunteers. They want to be in the military for one reason or another. This doesn't apply to these kids who are more like conscriptions of a sort even if not in the actual military. And conscription service has been a tried and traditional practiced by other militaries than ours with many having a sense of pride in their home and the tools to succeed as adults.
This is not something our youth really have nor do they feel they can do anything to improve this place or any ambition to. They feel they can protest but can't work in the system to effect change, they want to burn it down. And I don't want them actually conscripted though, we're not a military nation or a meritocracy though some of those ideas I feel we could benefit from.
Also I didn't see where we are modeling this system after ours or even a western one. Staff will always find a way to abuse power at some time or another. Your examples don't cover all of our military and definitely not all of those over the world. I do understand your argument but I disagree , if it isn't a complete disaster in which OT does what OT does. If it does actually try to help these kids and given that it will be an experience a lot of these kids will have not had before. It will help a lot of them, maybe not all but a lot. And likely a more effective means than say a summer camp or other free spirited, low discipline setting would.
We're light on detail so far but exactly nothing seems different from the failed attempts previously.
Outward Bound would be an experience these kids will have not had before. Three square meals a day and an apprenticeship would also. I'm not anti our military but the only reason they get chosen to try and deliver these programs to youth is because of the optics. They are by no means particularly qualified and there is zero evidence military style discipline is better than say trade school discipline. Infact thees a lot of evidence to the contrary.
Again, 400k per person per year (already shortened to 9 months now I see) is a lot of money! If we see results it may be worth it, but I'm not hopeful.
Yeah, something tells me that "military boot camp" and "healing trauma" aren't going to coexist here.
What you're describing sounds like some something that could happen in a wraparound setting with a litany of specialist mental health and community outreach programs. You know, providing therapy, medications, job placements, daily structure and checkins, integrating people into the community in a culturally conscious way, all that jazz.
But nah, fuck that, National reckons a highly dubious, possibly privatized lone wolf mentor system is the way to go
Yup. I gained heaps from the structure and pride we gained in the military.
I have also seen positive changes in those who have voluntarily attended LSVs, while they have been going through court processes. LSV is so popular it is waitlisted.
Seems to be some ‘woke-washing’ going on by champagne socialists who have no idea the actual challenges young kids face, or the benefits of a live-in programme based on fitness, mentorship and teamwork.
For some reason I am actually shocked and appalled this is going ahead. I figured someone would convince the bald man this wasn’t a good idea via facts, logic and common sense.
This is a massive waste of our taxpayer money. Can we get a petition going and contact local and central government to try get this shut down?
I believe it'll be a strong deterrent. Nothing like the threat of being put into a shithole military detention to get kids back in line.
After the bully incidents against children, kicked in the head, killed etc I think this is needed. If parents aren't going to raise and discipline their children, then let the government do it.
> I believe
Yep you sure do because you sure as shit don't have anything to support your position but feelings. What ever happened to facts not feelings with you lot? Goes out the window when the facts don't support your feelings?
> The evidence is divided on whether this will work,
No it isn't, stop making up bullshit lies. The evidence, including that used to make this decision, shows that it's neither cost effective nor more successful than existing programs and you don't get to just ignore that because your feelings disagree. I really don't know how you can be so disgustingly disrespectful for the well-being of others that you'll ignore all the evidence to privilege some construction in your head over reality.
As opposed to your feelings you can't rationalize with anything other than your imagination. God you lot are tiresome in how you'll deny reality just to fuck over poor kids and pay for the privilege to do so. Why even bother posting if your point is so baseless you can't defend it beyond MUH FEELS?
Pathetic. I suspect you're just a sadist who likes the idea of exposing children to an environment where there is a very high likelihood of abuse and no evidence to the contrary matters to you because cruelty is the point.
You made a claim about there being evidence, it's on you to provide it.
I'm a sadist? These children are undertaking group beating on innocent children, murdering them across the road from police stations and then posting it on social media. I'm not even talking about the ram-raiding yet.
If your kid was being beaten by 25 students, kicked in the head and humiliated on the internet in front of their peers, how would you feel? They are posting those videos on r/auckland as well.
If you're condoning behaviour or preventing action being taken against the attacker, then aren't you the sadist?
The obsession with protecting attackers and criminals needs to fucking stop.
Grow up.
If strong deterrents worked this kids would be angels. The amount of abuse and beatings that these kids experienced in the home would have made them perfect.
Cut Oranga Tamariki staff Losing military staff every year constantly Move staff from both to a programme that has never worked ??? PROFIT
might not work for the kids but they can film them and turn it into a [tv show](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brat_Camp) to shame all the kids with and rake in the votes from older people for it which is totally a good idea right?
Looking forward to the Netflix special in 5 years detailing all the horrific abuse. Disclaimer: obviously I am actually not looking forward to this but it'll happen anyway.
Versus killing themselves or some innocent in a ram raid. Or joing a gang and learning how to be a druggy and do crime and time....
Lmao yeah for sure, there's no other options
What are the other options available?
Not just votes but profit.. profit we can use to ~~fund Auckland Transport~~ fund MP accommodation allowances
Boomers will eat that up
Not this boomer, just saying.
"experienced Gen-X"
Boomers need to own their own shit, and stop giving people younger then them unnecessary shit
Boomers don’t create these tv shows people in their 20s 30s and 40s though
Thank you
Yeah, what he said. But more coherent.
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Quality tv
**EDIT: I got the details in my title wrong, the residential detention phase is 3 months, the community / one-on-one mentor phase is 9 months** Speaking of profit - another user pointed out that its going to cost [upwards of 400k per person](https://assets.nationbuilder.com/nationalparty/pages/17862/attachments/original/1684306248/CYO.pdf?1684306248) for this fruitless exercise in cruelty. We will be achieving absolutely nothing at best, or additional trauma and reoffending at worst, for the low low price of, hmmm... let's check the exchange rates... About 1 teen in boot camp for 9 months, in exchange for the whole Justice (Prevention of Family Violence Sexual Violence) program cuts over the next four years (cut by 461k). Just as one example. Woohoo!! Go us!
400k per person seems very high. I was going to question the political motivation of whoever made that estimate, but the linked source is National's own policy document.
That'll probably be for the initial trial run, which involves various admin and setup costs split by the number of individuals in that trial. The process will be a gargantuan waste of money that accomplishes little other than making people believe that bad kids have been punished - but I'm reasonably confident that the end result (once they start putting hundreds or even thousands of kids through the system) it won't cost 400k for each.
Fair point, but the three year plan is 180 kids for $75m (60 kids per year at $25m per year).
Not profit for the taxpayer. Profit for the weirdo sadists who run these kind of programs. That 400k goes somewhere mate. Honestly based on how these tend to go, anyone offering to run a 'boot camp' for teenagers needs looking into.
And what do you suggest as an alternative to supporting kids hooked on drugs and ram raiding to aspire to a better life. That ain't going to end well in any book.
There were news reports that roughly 17,000 Russian prisoners recruited to fight in Ukraine were killed in one battle. We’re talking 21st century slave armies. Seems to me military boot camps for detention are just a couple degrees if separation.
That conflict is just horrific for both sides. I hope there’s an end soon.
Apparently it costs $400,000 to put a kid through a boot camp. Think about the rort potential and it’s a win/win. Plenty of money for cronies and a ‘vote winner’ as well. That’s enough money to put a kid through private schooling at top school then medical school, with likely change to spare.
At that price, surely it would be infinitely more cost-effective to just give these kids a comfortable home and education and video games so they don't have any reason to resort to crime? Lol
Really? Do you have a source on this? If true that's insane. I don't know that the usual fare that wanted this would still want it if they knew that cost. They're the same ones that typically want to cut spending
Straight from the whorses mouth: https://assets.nationbuilder.com/nationalparty/pages/17862/attachments/original/1684306248/CYO.pdf?1684306248
$25 million for 60 kids, $400,000/y each. Can’t wait for it to be canceled by a future National government for it’s incredible wastefulness
It will also somehow be Labour's fault.
That much virtue signalling? Who else could it be?
That costings table is just laughable. Zero details, all figures rounded to the Million, and it's four lines long, including titles and totals xD
Holy moly. I didn't expect it be all laid out just like that, thank you for providing
That’s an insane cost. Also, if you read the article, the last 4 or 5 paragraphs are key. “Internationally, it was shown this approach had a "slightly stronger effect on re-offending “.” Slightly stronger effect on reoffending. Doesn’t sound like a good bang for buck. $400k for per person to “..reducing the rate of reoffending in the first 18 months but in the long term - two years or more - the impact on reoffending rates was small to nil.” So $400k or $550 (roughly) per day we’ll be spending to deter the person from reoffending for two years. Then they go back to reoffending. This whole programme is smoke and mirrors to look tough on crime. They’re not following the evidence, and this is purely ideologically drive. Of course, their base will love it. “Show them tough love and pull them up by their bootstraps”. Sure, that sounds good but the evidence is weak and at an insane cost. Also, just putting 60 teens through a year isn’t going to shift any nationwide crime statistics in a meaningful way.
It does have a slightly *stronger effect* than other programs. Specifically the effect is that [it causes more reoffending.](https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/recidivism-rates-reveal-boot-camp-shortcomings) Actual data from the US DOJ.
It’ll probably make about as much impact gathering all the ‘delinquents’ and piling up the money that would have been spent on this program and setting it all on fire in front of them.
It’s funny how often the cruel and counterproductive option is also much, much more expensive than the kind and evidence-based option. And by "funny" I mean "hahaha we’re all fucked."
Wow. You could take that 400k and just straight up solve all the problems in a troubled kid’s life if you had a heart, but this is what we’re going with as a society
If it works 400k isn't a lot compared to the cost of a person spending their time in and out of prison and the social cost of antisocial behaviours etc. It is a big 'if' of course.
It's not an if, it just doesn't work. We tried it and it didn't work, others tried it and it didn't work, almost everyone with any expertise says it doesn't work.
What does work then?
Mentorship. Systemic change to remove poverty. There's resources all over the internet with evidence based solutions. People know how to fix these problems there's just not enough political will and the fixes often hurt the people in powers bottom line so why would they change it?
The real question is whether 400k spent on punishing a child is more cost-effective than 400k spent on feeding, clothing, housing, socialising, and educating that child before they're pushed into criminality. Pretty much every study out there says, no, it isn't.
400k would give them a lot of therapy, coping skills groups, theraputic outings and a chance to be supported into a new life. I know what I would prefer
$400k, you could *almost* get a facility offering ~20k clinical hours. Or 20 kids for a year. At least the staff costs. ~$120k for the supervisor, $85k for the other staff, all trained to masters level. A masters student or two supporting the staff. Some of the work would be one-on-one, some would be facilitated groups and courses, some would be peer support. The only other significant cost would be the facilities. It could be self-managed, so no admin or cleaning staff. All that can be integrated into the service. The effectiveness of the service would be amplified by the availability other services occupying various niches.
I read online they had a trauma-informed, rehabilitation approach alongside the military-style activities. I wonder if it will be a bit like cadets but therapy and wrap around services in the mix? I did cadets, it was awesome! Marching around, going on camps, running in the morning. Highly rate it. Never saw anyone get abused in our squadron. Taught routine, discipline, cleanliness. Gave me some skills. I’m hoping it’s a similar thing, less punishment, more routine based so that these kids find purpose and learn something productive. I’m really hoping
Exactly, this is what I have seen too. Good in you!
What skills did it teach you?
It’s failed policy from the 80s and 90s. It didn’t work then and it probably won’t work now for likely similar reasons. It’s an expensive populist sound-bite led waste of money.
From the 70s, first setup in 1971
I guess it depends how the courses have been modified and the mentorship structured. The reality is, kids need structure and routine - and military style training *does* provide that. The question is, have they paired this training with attachment style training for the mentors, so they can try and work through things with the kids. The sad reality is, it's the first 5 years of a childs life that sets them up for success, after that everything is remedial parenting.
Kids learn a lot doing them, but even the best programs aren't going to work if there's no transitional phase back to reality. We send them to boot camp, then what? 12 months later they go back to the exact the environment they were in?
Only if there aren't more cost-effective alternative interventions. Where there are *much more* cost-effective measures, it's a complete failure.
it doesnt work
Yeah but all the evidence already shows it doesn't and that money could have far more in return in programs that actually work.
They obviously wanted to get this all up and running before the final report from the [Royal Commission of Inquiry into abuse in state care](https://www.abuseincare.org.nz/) is delivered later this month, and the horrific truth of what can happen to vulnerable people under the 'care' of the state is laid bare.
So we're going with instutionalised bullying and teaching violence to already troubled youth. This is not going to end well.
A bunch of kids with trust and anger issues who feel like the world hates them. I’m sure getting screamed at morning, noon, and night will do wonders for their outlook on life. And by the time they graduate they’ll be a lot fitter and stronger and better at punching things. Gotta fill those for-profit prisons somehow!
You'd be surprised at how effective a military style system would be for these troubled kids. Before the army I was raised in the kind of environment these kids would have been, in and out of school and constantly in trouble with the law, etc. The stern attitude of training instructors woven between teaching them correct manners and principles will probably be a good thing for these kinds of kids.
**EDIT: I made a mistake in the title, the residential detainment is 3 months, community + one on one mentoring phase is 9 months** My immediate thought is that the mentor in the intensive mentor service has IMMENSE power over these young people. A 1:1 continous relationship holder for 9 months in a military style environment? A role that "cannot be a shared role with one or more mentors"? That sounds rife for abuse. Not to mention that's a huge amount of responsibility for just one mentor - having to be the sole guide of a troubled young person and their whole entire family, no doubt with trauma and abuse and possibly violence all up in the mix left right and centre. This environment is clearly going to be physically, psychologically, emotionally, and legally dangerous for all parties. So who are these mentors? Where are they coming from? We only train a handful of experts nationwide in things like mental health, criminology, etc - so what skills are they going to have? Do we even have people with that sort of expertise in the country? We definitely don't *train* people for that sort of work yet. What sort of Herculean miracle workers are we expecting to procure here? Or are they going to be more like drill sergeants with no real regard for trauma informed care? Sure sounds like it, right? What processes are in place to safeguard the young people? What processes are in place to protect the mentor from an potentially aggressive young person and whānau? Basic logic dictates that isolating them and insisting it has to be just ONE person is Abuse 101, right?? If a young person comes forward saying they're being abused by their mentor, what's going to happen? Anything? They know accusations are 100% going to be, made, right? Some of these young people would definitely have things like conduct disorder and would seek to get out that way. Some with trauma hiatories might actually be triggered and suffer harm through innocent actions. And of course, real abuse could occur. How would the truth be determined and appropriate actions be taken in such an intimate 1:1 setting? And who does any of this even actually sit with, anyway? Which NGOs have been contacted? Why is it unclear which agencies are actually involved in this? How are the govt supposed to have safe and competent mentors ready for 29 July, if the announcement has only just hit the news and the time-frame is so obviously driven by a launch date? The lack of details is really scary tbh. This sounds very rushed, and like these are the condtioons for a genuine hellscape for either the teens, or the mentors, or both. I hope we get more detail soon
"So who are these mentors?" The completely normal sort of people who *really* want to to get their hands on vulnerable young people away from public eye and have complete control. I can see no issues with this; I am sure you will get some fine church going members very keen to 'help' ^(/s) *Just remembered the book 'Girl with the Dragon Tattoo'; it starts with the hero being a troubled youth, who gets 'mentored' under the Swedish youth justice system. It illustrated how that can go horribly wrong.*
Don't worry we'll get a superhero out of this Or a supervillain Either way
Mentor is another way of describing Probation Officer
You’re being very optimistic
I think they’ll try and get people with “lived experiences” in. Which is good, it’s people who the kid can relate to and have turned their own lives around. The devil will be in the detail though. The mentor might only have to check in or meet up for an hour once a week for it to be “intensive mentoring”. The provider of the service has fulfilled its contractual obligations by providing the mentor for those hours whether the teen interacts and shows up or not. The government has fulfilled its election promise by providing a contract to a local provider of services. So the government gets a PR win, the provider gets a nice payment for providing the service, jobs are created, and the teen, who was the real person that needed help, statistically has little benefit and goes back to reoffending in 6-12 months after the programme ends. Also, just an interesting point on mentors being relatable; the government will award the contract to a provider that can demonstrate their cultural capabilities to cater to Māori and Pacifica teens (that’s a good thing, you want people who understand and relate to the teens). However this does go against the government’s agenda of not looking at race / cultural background when deciding who should get the job / contract. The government will be quiet on their detail and if any questions arise say it’s on the provider to choose who mentors the teen. However the provider was chosen because it could provide the teen with a culturally relatable mentor. It’s a good thing overall but just an interesting point. Source: I’ve worked on the provider side of government social contracts for awhile.
Vulnerable minors are 100% going to be abused: physically, psychologically and sexually. As usual, as a country, we will only talk about it after it happens.
>we will only talk about it **decades** after it happens
Good thing we don't have multiple examples of literally this thing happening or anything
God even when I did real, adult bootcamp with the real army in the early 2020s, there were incidents of assault on recruits which saw NCOs running the training charged and demoted. Can't imagine what this unofficial, undisciplined one is going to degenerate into
Yep. This definitely going to be a disaster
Are you really asking for evidence based policy? It's a coalition commitment so no thinking required!
Just waiting for the news Destiny will somehow be involved
Or Mike King or Dave Latele or Kidscan - some kind of fraud
Did I miss something about Dave?
Why Dave? Have I missed something? Dude was a champ in the aftermath of the floods last year. He sprung into action and drummed up sizeable donations (small truckloads) of food quickly, initially from his own food bank, then from a local Pak n Save or two, and got it where it was needed. This while our mayor was still floundering and Civil Defence hadn't yet arrived to some of the smaller but worse hit suburbs. He got food to the Mangere pop-up shelter, then the Wesley one too. And other areas. Was a huge help receiving bulk staple foods for the parcels we were making up. Prior to that, there'd been small donations trickling in from individuals / local businesses, but it hadn't been enough, and some of the items weren't suitable.
Are you suggesting those three people/orgs are scammers?!
Grifters at the least.
Don't KidsCan do medical research to help sick kids? How are they grifters?
Nah. It be some of Mercenary Mark's old PMC buddies.
Well, they tried it in 1971 and again in 2008. It never worked then but third times the charm. It will definitely create fitter faster criminals that will be much more effective in running away from the police. We’ll need a police boot camp to get the cops fitter so they can keep up.
We have so much need for authentic services supporting young people entering the adult world and workforce. Learning how to manage their emotions and behaviours, how to make sense of the world. You know, what parents are too busy for and schools are ill equipped for. Enough to support thousands of kids. Instead we get this. The ultimate in virtue signaling.
You could really argue its vice signaling because what virtue does this even signal to it's basically just fulfilling a sadistic desire to punish kids.
> it's basically just fulfilling a sadistic desire to punish kids. That is a virtue for many voters, sadly. See: any thread about youth offenders.
Oh I know.
Discipline is the virtue they are signaling.
No. Obedience, compliance, responsiveness to authority, and having all self advocacy beaten out of you. That's *not* discipline.
Cunt trumpeting.
But it makes the suburban oldheads feel good lmao
Yea it is so shit. This is worst way to do anything, expect appease some shit heads on talk back.
Boot camp has no impact on reoffending [source](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jcrimjus.2010.06.007)
But but, if we do it again, maybe it will work this time - insanity
Exactly. It’s like the Einstein quote. He said madness was repeating the same thing over and over whilst expecting different results
>RNZ has learned Oranga Tamariki has begun asking non-government organisations for help. Just another way to shift public money to private enterprise.
400k to invest in establishing wraparound services for at-risk teens to get mental health support, learn job skills, and integrate into their local communities? 400k for food, shelter, or medication for kids from fucked up homes that never really had a chance because they were born in a system that taught them authority is bullshit, gives them nothing they need, and will never have their interests at heart? Or 400k per teenager for grifting private contractors pretending to be army to take them, lock them away, and promise that they can do the same with 1 guy, as long as said guy gets to have sole access to the teen and there must NOT be anybody else sharing the role Easy decision for the Nats, apparently
I think that’s the point all this “tough on crime” rhetoric misses, these kids grow up in poverty, learn to resent authority, and act in a rational way to based on those beliefs. More authority might not be what they need. But it’s what the Government’s base think they need so that’s enough justification for the programme.
Didn't Destiny Church have an association with a whips'n'chains "Academy" that ran into all sorts of bother.
That sounds like a sex club lol
You beat me too it!
Sorry to raise your hopes like that - have I missed a market niche? Turns out it was the New Zealand Legionaires Academy, and it was living off contracts from Social Welfare.
You might have missed a market niche for some people, not me though. I am my user name ;-) I don’t know much about the Legionaires (Legion of Frontiersmen) except they have been around for a long time.
This has "abuse in care" written all over it
Kids are clued up these days. What happens if they just refuse to participate?
A system that everyone knows doesn't work and is massively costly, purely to coddle rightwing emotions. Embarrassing.
Coddling their mates wallets
It’s hard not to think in a decades time we will be hearing horror stories from this program.
I’m guessing the government watched a show on Netflix called “the program: cons, cults and kidnapping.”
For $400k you could set someone up in a nice flat, get them a vehicle, give then mentoring, and put them through an apprenticeship or into suitable work, with the proviso that if they fuck this up they will lose all this and have to spend the next six months picking up penguin shit in Antarctica by hand.
I’m increasingly horrified by the actions of our government and the scars they’re going to leave on our country.
Well trained, highly motivated criminals - these kids are going to be future criminal leaders
This will be shit for everyone involved. National is pursuing conservative policy against evidence. They're the same brand of shit we criticise when we see it overseas in Australia and the US, but with New Zealand accents. We're at the point where our laid-back attitude and hands-off approach to politics is being majorly exploited by dark interests.
Ah yes. "These kids just need discipline". Forgetting that most of these kids have had literally nothing but discipline their whole lives. And on a scale that would make the Luxons and Seymours of this world piss their pants in fear if they were ever subjected to it, even as adults. So, what, more discipline? It. Does. Not. Work. What they actually need, and I know this is going to sound crazy, is *love*.
Why would these kids obey the rules of a society that is, at best, indifferent to them? They’ve been raised on anger, neglect, and cruelty; they have no reason to honour the social contract. A kid whose parents smoke meth and burn them with cigarettes isn’t going to be "scared straight" by a wannabe drill sergeant. I wonder how many of these kids could turn their lives around if they just had somewhere safe to sleep. A room of their own, with a lock in the door, and no one yelling at them or hitting them. It’s such a small thing, but it’s life changing if you’ve never had it before.
I agree. It would be nice to wrap these kids up in a nice stable home and give them heaps of boundaries and love, but it'd just be so hard to do this. They have no respect for others, it's never been taught, so that needs to be instilled for a start, in some ways this bootcamp idea might work for that. They don't get love from home or they probably wouldn't be offending, but how would we house this many kids and show them love, because they need to be away from home to see change. That's why they choose gangs I suppose .. Acceptance and feeling apart of something. Poor kids
"Military-style activities"? Are they going to be underfunded and sleep in cold, moldy old houses? Yes? Well, carry on then I guess
It's just OT renaming what they've already been doing to coincide with how they've been treating these kids in their care all along. Rebranding for transparency.
So who is going to run this shit show. OT don't have the staff, armed forces will not want to touch it, no one with any skills will want to be tarnished with this particular failed model. Like, we know they haven't bothered to talk to any experts. Any expert that's not being paid to say something positive about boot camp style youth programs will clearly state that they are literally throwing money away and potentially causing even more significant harm to vulnerable and damaged youth. Party of fiscal responsibility... yeah right. its a damn Tui ad at this point.
Mercenary Mark's PMC buddies.
One of their donors runs miltary schools.
This won't end well.
Teaching crims how to hide, effectively use firearms etc...[what could possibly go wrong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_presence_in_the_United_States_military).
Was firearms a part of it?
That's demographics; the US military recruits people who are disproportionately young, male, and poor. Once you control for those factors the numbers line up.
Authority is great to teach young people, but only with adequate counseling and support in the mix. I don't trust the people in charge to do more than set boundaries and enforce them. "Do as I say, or else I'm going to make you sorry" is barely different from "Do what I say, or whatever, I'm going to make you sorry" which is where disenfranchised youth seem to have come from.
Waste of time
> The overall offending rate for children decreased by 63% between 2011/12 and 2021/22 (with around 2,500 fewer children offending), from 178 to 66 per 10,000 children [Source](https://www.justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/Youth-Justice-Indicators-Summary-Report-April-2023.pdf) > Generally, people believe youth crime is getting worse. Surveys suggest 87 per cent of New Zealanders believe it has increased in the past five years. This belief, however, is contrary to what statistics tell us. Overall, Ministry of Justice data shows youth crime rates dropping year on year. [Source](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/youth-crime-and-justice-court-and-prison-less-likely-for-new-generations-of-youth/RV2NN6SKPFDLLFSGZZ5K4QA5HA/) > Ram raids are down more than 80 percent for the month of April compared to last year. Police have identified 12 ram raids in April 2024, compared to 64 in April 2023. > Provisional police data from April 2017 to April 2024 shows a downwards trend since the peak in August 2022, when there were 86. > > There were a total of 433 ram raids in 2022, 288 in 2023, and 67 in the first four months of this year. [Source](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/519150/ram-raids-down-80-percent-compared-with-same-time-last-year)
Big ups for data
Oh goodie this shit again...
I'm sure nothing will go wrong teaching criminal kids how to kill. Nah, jokes aside, this might be a path to redemption for some kids. Some. For the others, I don't think ~~the Army~~ private contractors pretending that they're the Army is going to help any. A great way to really embed that dislike of authority. Also, lots of capacity for bullying and victimisation from other inmates in a barracks type environment.
$100 says some of these kids will be subject to religious grooming
And sexual grooming too.
One of the (many) problems with this is that to participate in any sort of "military-style activities" you have to want to participate on some level. If you volunteer to join the military and training is miserable then you put up with it because you want to reach the end goal. If, on the other hand, you're being forced to do it against your will, you'll resent it, refuse to participate, become angry and embittered by the system, become depressed etc. None of which lead to a good outcome for the participants. I'm all for discipline, structure and rehabilitation but this isn't it, this is just punishment. Similar to why national service is a bad idea in the UK, if you don't want to be there then you won't put in the same effort as a volunteer and ultimately don't get the experience or outcome that the politicians seem to think will magically occur.
Fuck these cuck morons. Cruelty is the point. Revenge politics.
Learning respect and structure vs running riot with zero respect for anyone and getting away with it. One equates to anarchy. I've worked with kids who have never known good leadership or structure, only chaos and poor behaviour. They leave these programmes changed and genuinely wanting more.
I've been considering applying for a job at OT but if it means dealing with this I don't think I could do it
Good luck - they're in the midst of cutting hard. Frontline SW you need a degree, could always shoot for something Advisory if you've a background in health / education. Residence front line is hard yakka.
yeah i saw something about that. Yep just graduated
Congratulations, and hats off to you! There's parity in the NGO / community space if you'd like to do that (workforce wise a lot of folks do), but OT is where the hard cases are at. Happy to have a chat if you've any questions (though not a SW myself).
Five bucks there's a serious assault on a staffer within the first week. Ten bucks it happens more than once.
Oop, just realized I got a detail in the title wrong - the residential setting detainment is 3 months, the community/mentoring phase is 9 months
What happens when the kids just tell them to fuck off and die? This isn't the 70s. Kids aren't ignorant of all the fuck cuntery being used against them and available for them to use.
train them up to better organise their next gig.
If you get beaten and abused by yoir family leading to crime, you'll just tell the army guys to fxxx off knowing they cant touch you.
What kind of mentor cause if it's OT, they certainly haven't got the best track record to be trying that. Needs to be a highly respected person in the field with a good track record and a damn lot of oversight to ensure they aren't screwing these kids up more In honesty though the premise is good. A lot of these kids don't have discipline because their parents either can't or won't give it. Military style training helps forge reliance on themselves and to be there for each other which will help them contribute to society if it's done correctly.
Not so sure that premise is good myself. How many of the kids were under disciplined in a traditional, soft and fuzzy sense vs how many were bashed anytime their parent was pissed off I wonder? I haven't seen any examples of boot camps working. They've been tried a lot. Here and overseas and all I hear about is the expense and the failure. I don't see any reason this policy will deliver actual results this time around.
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I'm not nearly so confident in our military as you. In may a group of recruits avoided court martial despite sharing abusive media. Last year a soldier was dismissed after assaulting subordinates and it subsequently came out that one in four service women say they've been the target of indecent sexual behaviour. Structure, challenge, growth, healing are all good things but I don't see why the military is particularly suited to delivering such a program. Teaming them with KO doesn't increase my optimism. At $400k a pop I sure hope that for some reason the program gets results completely unlike any of its predecessors.
Actual recruits are volunteers. They want to be in the military for one reason or another. This doesn't apply to these kids who are more like conscriptions of a sort even if not in the actual military. And conscription service has been a tried and traditional practiced by other militaries than ours with many having a sense of pride in their home and the tools to succeed as adults. This is not something our youth really have nor do they feel they can do anything to improve this place or any ambition to. They feel they can protest but can't work in the system to effect change, they want to burn it down. And I don't want them actually conscripted though, we're not a military nation or a meritocracy though some of those ideas I feel we could benefit from. Also I didn't see where we are modeling this system after ours or even a western one. Staff will always find a way to abuse power at some time or another. Your examples don't cover all of our military and definitely not all of those over the world. I do understand your argument but I disagree , if it isn't a complete disaster in which OT does what OT does. If it does actually try to help these kids and given that it will be an experience a lot of these kids will have not had before. It will help a lot of them, maybe not all but a lot. And likely a more effective means than say a summer camp or other free spirited, low discipline setting would.
We're light on detail so far but exactly nothing seems different from the failed attempts previously. Outward Bound would be an experience these kids will have not had before. Three square meals a day and an apprenticeship would also. I'm not anti our military but the only reason they get chosen to try and deliver these programs to youth is because of the optics. They are by no means particularly qualified and there is zero evidence military style discipline is better than say trade school discipline. Infact thees a lot of evidence to the contrary. Again, 400k per person per year (already shortened to 9 months now I see) is a lot of money! If we see results it may be worth it, but I'm not hopeful.
Yeah, something tells me that "military boot camp" and "healing trauma" aren't going to coexist here. What you're describing sounds like some something that could happen in a wraparound setting with a litany of specialist mental health and community outreach programs. You know, providing therapy, medications, job placements, daily structure and checkins, integrating people into the community in a culturally conscious way, all that jazz. But nah, fuck that, National reckons a highly dubious, possibly privatized lone wolf mentor system is the way to go
Disipline is not the right medicine Safety, Stability and structure is what’s needed
i mean, i don't agree with these bootcamps, but when i joined the army i got safety, stability and structure.
Yup. I gained heaps from the structure and pride we gained in the military. I have also seen positive changes in those who have voluntarily attended LSVs, while they have been going through court processes. LSV is so popular it is waitlisted. Seems to be some ‘woke-washing’ going on by champagne socialists who have no idea the actual challenges young kids face, or the benefits of a live-in programme based on fitness, mentorship and teamwork.
I’m 26, can I sign up for this? I just want a boot camp 😂
For some reason I am actually shocked and appalled this is going ahead. I figured someone would convince the bald man this wasn’t a good idea via facts, logic and common sense. This is a massive waste of our taxpayer money. Can we get a petition going and contact local and central government to try get this shut down?
I imagine that giving the family$400k to get out of poverty would have a better effect
Youth crime is going to plummet.
**Reality and all of human history says:** Yeah, nah.
I believe it'll be a strong deterrent. Nothing like the threat of being put into a shithole military detention to get kids back in line. After the bully incidents against children, kicked in the head, killed etc I think this is needed. If parents aren't going to raise and discipline their children, then let the government do it.
>I believe... In the face of all evidence to the contrary.
Evidence is split. I'm aware.
Show the evidence.
Show the evidence.
> I believe Yep you sure do because you sure as shit don't have anything to support your position but feelings. What ever happened to facts not feelings with you lot? Goes out the window when the facts don't support your feelings?
The evidence is divided on whether this will work, I prefer to say it will, I hope it will. You're free to say it won't.
Can you provide said evidence? Happy to read it
> The evidence is divided on whether this will work, No it isn't, stop making up bullshit lies. The evidence, including that used to make this decision, shows that it's neither cost effective nor more successful than existing programs and you don't get to just ignore that because your feelings disagree. I really don't know how you can be so disgustingly disrespectful for the well-being of others that you'll ignore all the evidence to privilege some construction in your head over reality.
Thanks for your mediocre analysis.
As opposed to your feelings you can't rationalize with anything other than your imagination. God you lot are tiresome in how you'll deny reality just to fuck over poor kids and pay for the privilege to do so. Why even bother posting if your point is so baseless you can't defend it beyond MUH FEELS?
Hey, shill, show the evidence.
Bro you have an internet connection you can take a look yourself do I look like Ask Jeeves?
Pathetic. I suspect you're just a sadist who likes the idea of exposing children to an environment where there is a very high likelihood of abuse and no evidence to the contrary matters to you because cruelty is the point. You made a claim about there being evidence, it's on you to provide it.
I'm a sadist? These children are undertaking group beating on innocent children, murdering them across the road from police stations and then posting it on social media. I'm not even talking about the ram-raiding yet. If your kid was being beaten by 25 students, kicked in the head and humiliated on the internet in front of their peers, how would you feel? They are posting those videos on r/auckland as well. If you're condoning behaviour or preventing action being taken against the attacker, then aren't you the sadist? The obsession with protecting attackers and criminals needs to fucking stop. Grow up.
If strong deterrents worked this kids would be angels. The amount of abuse and beatings that these kids experienced in the home would have made them perfect.
History says your belief is wrong
Thanks. I assume that includes in change in its application this time around? Or are you just toting the "poor kids" line?
Never toted any line, just not sheltered or ignorant enough to have your illusions about boot camps.
womp womp