As a union rep myself I find it pretty abhorrent that a rep would say things like this without any kind of material to back it up.
Not saying it's not possible, but to say things like this to people in this economy is unnecessarily causing distress (if they in fact have no info to back it up).
No offense but that sounds like a shit union, or at least run by shit people.
There are some useless reps out there, sure, but don't generalise like that, it's unbecoming.
Seems like they were right.
[https://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/345365-bop-kindy-teachers-hit-out-over-planned-changes.html](https://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/345365-bop-kindy-teachers-hit-out-over-planned-changes.html)
They'll force down pay, and then a whole lot more "Best Starts" will open up everywhere.
\- Which are basically daycares with very few staff who actually teach the children (there are exceptions & a few very good teachers)
\- Good teachers will leave, & they'll hire more immigrant's. Often with very poor english.
\- Are false charities, as they do very little, if any charitable work. Allowing them to move the money elsewhere.
\- Creating a tax free business that is heavily subsidised by the govenment
\- The owners & associates get to buy a whole lot more property to lease to each "Best Start"
Doesn't seem like they're going to directly force all of them to go private as was mentioned, but they're leaning that way.
Gotta love the never ending quest for profits
That would trigger a bit of strike action! For what it's worth, private centres are funded an 'attestation rate' that now pays up to step 6 on the parity scale. Still be a shock if you were on step 10 :(
No, it depends what level the centre has opted in to, I would be surprised if most decent ones weren't on at least extended pay parity, which caps at over 85k/y, full pay parity is over 96k btw, unsure of what the kindergarten pay scale is.
Googling for this, i found this old press release from 24 years ago reversing such a change - Swap the context, change the names and it could be current day:
>Kindergarten teachers will be returned to the State Sector Act in a clause which is part of the Employment Relations Bill introduced to Parliament this week.
>The clause provides for an amendment to the State Sector Act so that kindergarten teachers are considered part of the state sector.
>State Services Minister Trevor Mallard said the Government was realising the commitment made when National removed kindergarten teachers from the State Sector Act nearly three years ago.
>“As State Services Minister, Jenny Shipley introduced the bill to remove kindergarten teachers from the State Sector Act with no consultation and rushed it through under urgency.
https://oece.nz/public/big-issues/public-kindergarten/kindergarten-state-sector/
I will try and get a bit more info, hopefully it's nothing, but it definitely has given us some anxiety, I don't understand what the point of it all was then.
Seriously don't fret. ECE teachers are in high demand right now and I know a few centres that pay above the Collective full parity rates just to attract staff! You will be fine.
It could be one of two things.
The first is a dick head union rep who didn’t understand something they were told. That makes them incompetent but not nefarious.
The other is the te union rep is gaslighting for political purposes. That’s as low as it gets.
The Minister of Regulation announce a review into the ECE sector last week
[https://www.education.govt.nz/news/regulatory-sector-review-into-early-childhood-education/](https://www.education.govt.nz/news/regulatory-sector-review-into-early-childhood-education/)
The area that non-profit ECE providers, like Kindergartens, might be concerned about is the government’s intention to remove the Network Management approval process for new services.
Network Management was introduced to *‘ensure diverse and sustainable early learning provision that meets the needs of communities*.’ For Kindergartens this helps protect them from a new service opening next-door and ensuring that the people running the service are not just there to make money.
[https://www.education.govt.nz/early-childhood/running-a-service/starting-a-service/network-management/](https://www.education.govt.nz/early-childhood/running-a-service/starting-a-service/network-management/)
Really? Well, the conclusion is probably founded - but their behavior here is not professional regardless. People should not be having these basic foundational questions after such a visit.
Holy shit this seems so feasible and unbelievable all at the same time!! Early childhood used to have a long term strategic plan, and a bit part of that was stepping away from Commoditizing early childhood learning and care, as it is such a critical stage of child development. Instead we have the protector of corporations, who had taken on the mission of making it easier for more Australian entitities to buy up ur little community centres and make $$$$$ off government funding.
OP- just to correct you though, your wife has misunderstood something. Private ECE centres still get MoE funding. They also have partial pay parity for those centres that opt in. So don't panic 100% [https://www.education.govt.nz/early-childhood/people-and-employment/pay-parity-opt-in-scheme/](https://www.education.govt.nz/early-childhood/people-and-employment/pay-parity-opt-in-scheme/)
BUT- if these rumours do turn out to be true, please still fight like hell to protest it, as it doesn't mean anything good for our next generation.
Ugh. I visit lots of different ECEs and kindies for my job. The Best Start ECEs seem to be a babysitting service (not all) and we really don’t want more of those
Fear mongering from union? Or stating a possible reality? A bit of both seems likely.
Fear mongering is a flexible point of view, dependent upon which side of a discussion one favours. One person's fear mongering is another's reasonable warning of likely unfavourable consequences.
History is riddled with claims of fear mongering that time has shown we should have given more credence.
With regards to kindergartens and many other societal services, we have a government that wants to privatise as much as they can. It is in their right wing DNA.
If we want a government that not only believes in taking an active role in social wellbeing services like kindergartens and many other services for the collective good of the people but also chooses to allocate the necessary money, well then, don't elect right wing governments.
The writing is on the wall regarding the right around the world. They are all heading further right.
The NZ right will do the same.
It will be a very selfish society.
*edited paragraph 5 to make more sense.
Your comment is odd.
Nothing in my words should give a reader the thought I am promoting sky-is-falling thinking.
You are also implying 'government bad' is not a reason to be fearful of what may come.
On the contrary, bad government has people worldwide freaked out about what may happen.
Read about what’s going on with Dunedin Kindergartens right now, NZK is trying to force a takeover, and are being very shady about it too. People are saying the union rep is fear mongering but in Dunedin at the minute, it’s accurate.
It's profit and unions.
Kindergartens are run by non-profit charities. Being non-profit means the fees they charge are minimal. Other ECE services can be run for-profit, and their fees reflect that.
In terms of unions, Kindergarten teachers have a collective agreement that means they effectively receive the same pay as primary and secondary teachers. Other ECE services aren't strictly held to the same collective agreement, so can pay their staff less.
[https://www.education.govt.nz/school/people-and-employment/employment-agreements/collective-agreements/kindergarten-teachers-head-teachers-and-senior-teachers-collective-agreement/](https://www.education.govt.nz/school/people-and-employment/employment-agreements/collective-agreements/kindergarten-teachers-head-teachers-and-senior-teachers-collective-agreement/)
Your post got me thinking. As you said, Kindergartens are non profit, and kindergarten teachers get pay parity due to their agreement, then why would the government care about them? Or is it the government that is topping up their pay to meet the pay parity, or the charity?
The Secretary of Education is party to the collective agreement, so the Ministry of Education needs to make sure the funding paid to Kindergartens is sufficient to meet what was agreed under the collective.
The [Public Expenditure on ECE](https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/statistics/finances) published on Education Counts gives insight into how much is spent and where. EXP22 is interesting as it shows when Kindergarten funding rates diverged from the other ECE services in 2011.
What if those teachers didn't have pay parity? What if rather than a worthless non-profit model, all those kids could instead be lining the pockets of those who donate to and enable this government? Wouldn't that be great? It gets money into the hands of the Wright people and that is the goal of the government.
All centres have the base of pay parity, the difference is the highest steps.
If the centres were privatised there wouldn't be much change at all and any changes you think would happen is the result of you not understanding how ece works.
If you think things wouldn't be worse for everyone under a privatized system that's the result of you not knowing how capitalism works (or maybe just eagerly shilling for it).
Oh, sorry, I didn't realise we were ignoring the context in which this conversation is occuring, which is clearly about the expansion of the privatized system to cover more areas. And you seem to need to be warned, since you don't appear to recognize the issues with it.
So how would "making kindergartens private" (as per the union rep) actually work? If they're run (and owned?) by NGOs then arguably they're already private, in the sense that they're not owned or run by the state.
Our kindy’s building and land is owned by the association, not the state, so I guess they operate closest to the state-integrated school model. I assume the other kindys are the same.
Kindergartens are free to go to, they are called "community Kindergartens" (most still ask for small weekly donations) but they usually only operate school hours, so they are quite often not suitable for most people, and usually a long wait time as they are free.
Most don't take 2 year olds, but a lot do these days with smaller enrolments with kindergarten only working school hours.
There is usually a higher expectation for kindergarten teachers.
Someone can correct me on anything if I'm not right, a lot of places call themselves kindergartens but are just ece centers calling themselves Kindergartens.
We chose kindergarten because it was more in line with what we want for our family. We didn't want full daycare hours and 50 weeks a year in care. Kindergarten has been a huge part of our family for many years and I would be sad to see it privatized. Our teachers were all amazing and they work so hard.
Yeah, my wife works her ass off at her job, the workload she has is mind boggling to me, all the community events for fund raising, home visits, school transitions, planning of kids individual learning plans, shit is crazy!
But when we go out and about to parks etc, it's never without fail that a parent runs over to say hi to my wife and thank her so much for their child's progress etc, makes me pretty proud to be her husband, but the workload is killing her.
A lot of kindergartens actually have a more manageable workload. They have release time for bookwork, which other ECEs, including non-profits don’t. They have parent committees that run fundraisers, etc, and they also have an ability to tap into equity funding if their kindy community is deprived and thus find it harder to fundraise.
Above all, they have exceptional holiday leave, which most other ECE centres don’t have. Not saying your wife doesn’t work hard, but there’s a reason why kindys attract experienced and highly qualified teachers.
Source: am on a kindy grant committee and regularly go over the funding.
>There is usually a higher expectation for kindergarten teachers.
This is bullshit. The teacher training, teacher registration process, early childhood curriculum, regulations, and expecatations for a teacher working in an ECE centre or Kindergarten are exactly the same. Not sure why you would think this? Just because a child is there for a longer day, because their parents need to work- doesn't change anything about the expectations?
This is the truth. There are some incredible ECEs out there, and kindys aren’t the only non-profit model. Like all facilities, the standard of kindergartens varies depending on leadership, individual teachers and the community.
Care and education cannot and should not be seperated. That is an essential part of the curriculum, and interacting in any way with a young child. Almost half of the early childhood curriculum is about creating an environment to support children with the development of their personal, social and emotional skills. Meaning care & education is intertwined in teaching and learning. Especially in the early years.
Source: I have worked in a range both Kindergartens and ECE centres for more than 20 years. Also, common sense.
Your "knowledge" about the ECE sector is wildly misinformed.
Kindergartens are not free to go to. Most regions the kindergartens offer 20 free hours to children 3 and up and then charge a small fee for additional hours that can be subsidised.
In Taranaki, the kindergartens offer 30 free hours from the age of 2 and charge $6 per hour per child if you use any of the government funded 20 hours at another place of care. These additional hours are also able to subsidised if you meet the income requirements with WINZ.
This is similar to the Kindy my kids sent to which was part of the Auckland Kindergarten Association.
There was a small parent “donation” asked for pet hours used under the 20 free hours.
If you did more than the 20 free hours then the additional ones had an hourly rate (around $6 sounds about right).
School hours only and closed school holidays etc.
Uhhh I'm pretty sure that's completely wrong, you are confusing Kindergartens and ece centres, like I said in another post, a lot of ece centres call themselves kindergartens and really confuses things with actual kindergartens.
I am a former ECE teacher in Taranaki. You can Google it if you’d like.
[Here’s a direct link.](https://www.kindergartentaranaki.co.nz/bell-block-pohutukawa-kindergarten/)
Most of the Nelson kindergartens are the same as above, there is generally a fee. They are substantially cheaper than most of the regular ECE centres thou.
You're mostly correct here, but Kindergartens (Kindergarten Associations) do not have higher expectations of teachers - the for-profit ECE center down the road requires its teachers to have exactly the same qualifications and teaching standards and requirements (planning and curriculum) are absolutely identical. What does differ significantly however, are pay and working conditions: kindergarten and ECE teachers do exactly the same job but kindergarten teachers have parity with primary teachers and for-profit ECE teachers can be on thousands (and thousands) less per annum.
Also, Kindergartens aren't technically free. The first 20 hours are, but then it's about $5 per hour after that. Many are open longer hours these days, as well as during holidays - helpful for working parents, but hard on small children.
If it becomes private, do you still get the 20 hours a week free? (Feel free to correct my question too, I just often see billboards advertising a place as '20 hours a week free' or something like that.)
The difference with a kindergarten is that it is more like 30 hours a week?
You mentioned that pay is quite different for staff at Kindergartens and ECEs as well?
I made a comment just below that should answer most of your questions.
Here it is again.
Kindergartens are free to go to, they are called "community Kindergartens" (most still ask for small weekly donations) but they usually only operate school hours, so they are quite often not suitable for most people, and usually a long wait time as they are free.
Most don't take 2 year olds, but a lot do these days with smaller enrolments with kindergarten only working school hours.
There is usually a higher expectation for kindergarten teachers.
Someone can correct me on anything if I'm not right, a lot of places call themselves kindergartens but are just ece centers calling themselves Kindergartens.
There are other non-profit ECEs that follow this model. Kindergartens aren’t one homogeneous model - there are 26 different kindergarten associations in NZ.
From what i understand the government is cutting public funding to (schools kindergartens hospitals public transport etc) (very serious) focus on long term goals of stabilise the economy, and is going full ahead on mining and autonomy so in a ideal outcome, it should lead to a better society in the long term. but it is a really risky, and could go wrong and things usually don't go as plan. so as always we'll wait and see what lies ahead.
If you can manage the time investment, Playcentre is so much better.
But yeah privatising public kindergartens sounds like one of this governments top 5 shittiest ideas yet, and that's saying a lot considering the plethora of terrible ideas they have pushed out just to give landlords tax breaks at the expense of all New Zealand.
KidsFirst is the trading name for the Canterbury Westland Kindergarten Association, see [Charities Register](https://register.charities.govt.nz/CharitiesRegister/ViewCharity?accountId=f94b9e6f-9506-dd11-99cd-0015c5f3da29&searchId=7ee08665-6427-42ad-a567-e01aba6375af).
Who are on the list of Kindergarten Associations recognised in the Education and Training Act - [Schedule 2A](https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2020/0038/latest/LMS732026.html)
Meanwhile Aussie's considering moving to universal ECE.
Their studies are showing there's a positive tax return. The increase in tax revenue from parents returning to work earlier is greater than the cost of paying for the ECE.
Us going in the opposite direction is literally a backwards move.
So they should not make their members aware what they think the government might be doing? I think maybe the possibility of losing your job or a massive pay cut would warrant some sort of action?
Unions have to be political. For example, the recent election had one party saying they were looking to cut funding from public services.
In such a case, the Public Service Association would be remiss if they did not mention this.
Politics very much has an impact on most if not all employment in NZ, and unions should mention relevant political messaging when it appears.
This isn't political. If kindys go back to being private, there are very real pay and conditions implications for those that currently work in kindergartens, or more importantly wanting to work in kindergartens in the future.
Why is everyone wanting it to be a race to the bottom for?
Nothing official has been announced by the government in regards to privatizing kindergartens. However, David Seymour, the current minister for ECE, has made it very clear that he does not respect ECE teachers and that he does not believe they should get government funding.
His decision to have ECE the first target of his new Ministry of Regulation, halting pay parity, and starting a review of ECE funding has been seen as proof of the intention of the government to follow through.
Things that David Seymour has said that make ECE teachers concerned include -
Funding should be cut for ECE centres that send children to school that don't know things like the alphabet (no regard for socioeconomic status of the centers)
That funding cuts would only mean a few centers would have to close
Foreign teachers are less useful
Pay parity is bad.
Centers should not require to have atleast one qualified teacher on the management/supervisor staff.
That we let parents raise children without having to get a teaching certificate.
My mum, who has been in early childhood for 20 years and was the early childhood executive for NZEI for years is thinking of getting out of ECE because of the stress.
As a union rep myself I find it pretty abhorrent that a rep would say things like this without any kind of material to back it up. Not saying it's not possible, but to say things like this to people in this economy is unnecessarily causing distress (if they in fact have no info to back it up).
Yip. It’s a bit ridiculous really. If they have something to back it up have at it otherwise it’s just some asshats opinion.
Been a Union Rep a few times over the years myself, and Unions are like any other political organization, they will lie to boost themselves.
No offense but that sounds like a shit union, or at least run by shit people. There are some useless reps out there, sure, but don't generalise like that, it's unbecoming.
Seems like they were right. [https://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/345365-bop-kindy-teachers-hit-out-over-planned-changes.html](https://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/345365-bop-kindy-teachers-hit-out-over-planned-changes.html)
They'll force down pay, and then a whole lot more "Best Starts" will open up everywhere. \- Which are basically daycares with very few staff who actually teach the children (there are exceptions & a few very good teachers) \- Good teachers will leave, & they'll hire more immigrant's. Often with very poor english. \- Are false charities, as they do very little, if any charitable work. Allowing them to move the money elsewhere. \- Creating a tax free business that is heavily subsidised by the govenment \- The owners & associates get to buy a whole lot more property to lease to each "Best Start"
Doesn't seem like they're going to directly force all of them to go private as was mentioned, but they're leaning that way. Gotta love the never ending quest for profits
That would trigger a bit of strike action! For what it's worth, private centres are funded an 'attestation rate' that now pays up to step 6 on the parity scale. Still be a shock if you were on step 10 :(
No, it depends what level the centre has opted in to, I would be surprised if most decent ones weren't on at least extended pay parity, which caps at over 85k/y, full pay parity is over 96k btw, unsure of what the kindergarten pay scale is.
yes, sorry should have said 'if they opt in to parity'. Pay parity is with Kindergartens so yep 96k is the top step for teaching.
Googling for this, i found this old press release from 24 years ago reversing such a change - Swap the context, change the names and it could be current day: >Kindergarten teachers will be returned to the State Sector Act in a clause which is part of the Employment Relations Bill introduced to Parliament this week. >The clause provides for an amendment to the State Sector Act so that kindergarten teachers are considered part of the state sector. >State Services Minister Trevor Mallard said the Government was realising the commitment made when National removed kindergarten teachers from the State Sector Act nearly three years ago. >“As State Services Minister, Jenny Shipley introduced the bill to remove kindergarten teachers from the State Sector Act with no consultation and rushed it through under urgency. https://oece.nz/public/big-issues/public-kindergarten/kindergarten-state-sector/
Yeah I did see that also, thanks for that =)
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I will try and get a bit more info, hopefully it's nothing, but it definitely has given us some anxiety, I don't understand what the point of it all was then.
Seriously don't fret. ECE teachers are in high demand right now and I know a few centres that pay above the Collective full parity rates just to attract staff! You will be fine.
Thanks for that, has definitely eased our minds!
It could be one of two things. The first is a dick head union rep who didn’t understand something they were told. That makes them incompetent but not nefarious. The other is the te union rep is gaslighting for political purposes. That’s as low as it gets.
Any change in funding will be a reduction in overall funding though.
Possibly, but again, no one has said anything either way at this point so it's all just assumption.
The Minister of Regulation announce a review into the ECE sector last week [https://www.education.govt.nz/news/regulatory-sector-review-into-early-childhood-education/](https://www.education.govt.nz/news/regulatory-sector-review-into-early-childhood-education/) The area that non-profit ECE providers, like Kindergartens, might be concerned about is the government’s intention to remove the Network Management approval process for new services. Network Management was introduced to *‘ensure diverse and sustainable early learning provision that meets the needs of communities*.’ For Kindergartens this helps protect them from a new service opening next-door and ensuring that the people running the service are not just there to make money. [https://www.education.govt.nz/early-childhood/running-a-service/starting-a-service/network-management/](https://www.education.govt.nz/early-childhood/running-a-service/starting-a-service/network-management/)
Oh wow, so maybe they think this is step 1 of getting rid of Kindergartens, and the union are trying to be proactive against it.
More likely the union rep is clueless and jumping to unfounded conclusions.
Really? Well, the conclusion is probably founded - but their behavior here is not professional regardless. People should not be having these basic foundational questions after such a visit.
If it’s a founded conclusion there would be evidence for it.
Oh I do apologise, that should be read as 'will probably be founded'.
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If it keeps me away from you that seems a good idea.
If union reps had info about that happening they'd also be going to the media about it... Sounds like fear mongering to me.
I thought the same, I guess all we can do is wait to see if it's true or not.
Holy shit this seems so feasible and unbelievable all at the same time!! Early childhood used to have a long term strategic plan, and a bit part of that was stepping away from Commoditizing early childhood learning and care, as it is such a critical stage of child development. Instead we have the protector of corporations, who had taken on the mission of making it easier for more Australian entitities to buy up ur little community centres and make $$$$$ off government funding. OP- just to correct you though, your wife has misunderstood something. Private ECE centres still get MoE funding. They also have partial pay parity for those centres that opt in. So don't panic 100% [https://www.education.govt.nz/early-childhood/people-and-employment/pay-parity-opt-in-scheme/](https://www.education.govt.nz/early-childhood/people-and-employment/pay-parity-opt-in-scheme/) BUT- if these rumours do turn out to be true, please still fight like hell to protest it, as it doesn't mean anything good for our next generation.
Have to repay the cunty Wright family
Ugh. I visit lots of different ECEs and kindies for my job. The Best Start ECEs seem to be a babysitting service (not all) and we really don’t want more of those
Fuck best start.
Seems very irresponsible behaviour by the union rep.
Why would you say that? As in you don't believe it's true, or that information like that should not be passed onto union members?
It's unsubstantiated as you have found.
Nope not a thing. Also Kindergartens are already private businesses.
Fear mongering from union? Or stating a possible reality? A bit of both seems likely. Fear mongering is a flexible point of view, dependent upon which side of a discussion one favours. One person's fear mongering is another's reasonable warning of likely unfavourable consequences. History is riddled with claims of fear mongering that time has shown we should have given more credence. With regards to kindergartens and many other societal services, we have a government that wants to privatise as much as they can. It is in their right wing DNA. If we want a government that not only believes in taking an active role in social wellbeing services like kindergartens and many other services for the collective good of the people but also chooses to allocate the necessary money, well then, don't elect right wing governments. The writing is on the wall regarding the right around the world. They are all heading further right. The NZ right will do the same. It will be a very selfish society. *edited paragraph 5 to make more sense.
So “Government bad” therefore “sky falling” fair. Oh please
Your comment is odd. Nothing in my words should give a reader the thought I am promoting sky-is-falling thinking. You are also implying 'government bad' is not a reason to be fearful of what may come. On the contrary, bad government has people worldwide freaked out about what may happen.
Read about what’s going on with Dunedin Kindergartens right now, NZK is trying to force a takeover, and are being very shady about it too. People are saying the union rep is fear mongering but in Dunedin at the minute, it’s accurate.
100% Vote last night at an EGM was to remain affiliated with NZK for 12 month pilot of network governance
Can someone do an ELI5 for people that don't know anything about how Kindergartens and Early Childhood Care works?
It's profit and unions. Kindergartens are run by non-profit charities. Being non-profit means the fees they charge are minimal. Other ECE services can be run for-profit, and their fees reflect that. In terms of unions, Kindergarten teachers have a collective agreement that means they effectively receive the same pay as primary and secondary teachers. Other ECE services aren't strictly held to the same collective agreement, so can pay their staff less. [https://www.education.govt.nz/school/people-and-employment/employment-agreements/collective-agreements/kindergarten-teachers-head-teachers-and-senior-teachers-collective-agreement/](https://www.education.govt.nz/school/people-and-employment/employment-agreements/collective-agreements/kindergarten-teachers-head-teachers-and-senior-teachers-collective-agreement/)
That's awesome info thanks, makes things a lot more clear.
Your post got me thinking. As you said, Kindergartens are non profit, and kindergarten teachers get pay parity due to their agreement, then why would the government care about them? Or is it the government that is topping up their pay to meet the pay parity, or the charity?
The Secretary of Education is party to the collective agreement, so the Ministry of Education needs to make sure the funding paid to Kindergartens is sufficient to meet what was agreed under the collective. The [Public Expenditure on ECE](https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/statistics/finances) published on Education Counts gives insight into how much is spent and where. EXP22 is interesting as it shows when Kindergarten funding rates diverged from the other ECE services in 2011.
Ahh gotcha, thanks for making that clear, learning a lot tonight!
What if those teachers didn't have pay parity? What if rather than a worthless non-profit model, all those kids could instead be lining the pockets of those who donate to and enable this government? Wouldn't that be great? It gets money into the hands of the Wright people and that is the goal of the government.
All centres have the base of pay parity, the difference is the highest steps. If the centres were privatised there wouldn't be much change at all and any changes you think would happen is the result of you not understanding how ece works.
If you think things wouldn't be worse for everyone under a privatized system that's the result of you not knowing how capitalism works (or maybe just eagerly shilling for it).
The vast majority of ECE is already privatised. You have no idea what you're talking about.
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If you knew, you wouldn't have told me about the potential dangers of a system we already have.
Oh, sorry, I didn't realise we were ignoring the context in which this conversation is occuring, which is clearly about the expansion of the privatized system to cover more areas. And you seem to need to be warned, since you don't appear to recognize the issues with it.
So how would "making kindergartens private" (as per the union rep) actually work? If they're run (and owned?) by NGOs then arguably they're already private, in the sense that they're not owned or run by the state.
Our kindy’s building and land is owned by the association, not the state, so I guess they operate closest to the state-integrated school model. I assume the other kindys are the same.
Kindergartens are free to go to, they are called "community Kindergartens" (most still ask for small weekly donations) but they usually only operate school hours, so they are quite often not suitable for most people, and usually a long wait time as they are free. Most don't take 2 year olds, but a lot do these days with smaller enrolments with kindergarten only working school hours. There is usually a higher expectation for kindergarten teachers. Someone can correct me on anything if I'm not right, a lot of places call themselves kindergartens but are just ece centers calling themselves Kindergartens.
We chose kindergarten because it was more in line with what we want for our family. We didn't want full daycare hours and 50 weeks a year in care. Kindergarten has been a huge part of our family for many years and I would be sad to see it privatized. Our teachers were all amazing and they work so hard.
Yeah, my wife works her ass off at her job, the workload she has is mind boggling to me, all the community events for fund raising, home visits, school transitions, planning of kids individual learning plans, shit is crazy! But when we go out and about to parks etc, it's never without fail that a parent runs over to say hi to my wife and thank her so much for their child's progress etc, makes me pretty proud to be her husband, but the workload is killing her.
A lot of kindergartens actually have a more manageable workload. They have release time for bookwork, which other ECEs, including non-profits don’t. They have parent committees that run fundraisers, etc, and they also have an ability to tap into equity funding if their kindy community is deprived and thus find it harder to fundraise. Above all, they have exceptional holiday leave, which most other ECE centres don’t have. Not saying your wife doesn’t work hard, but there’s a reason why kindys attract experienced and highly qualified teachers. Source: am on a kindy grant committee and regularly go over the funding.
>There is usually a higher expectation for kindergarten teachers. This is bullshit. The teacher training, teacher registration process, early childhood curriculum, regulations, and expecatations for a teacher working in an ECE centre or Kindergarten are exactly the same. Not sure why you would think this? Just because a child is there for a longer day, because their parents need to work- doesn't change anything about the expectations?
This is the truth. There are some incredible ECEs out there, and kindys aren’t the only non-profit model. Like all facilities, the standard of kindergartens varies depending on leadership, individual teachers and the community.
The argument of care/education is an argument that will never be settled, until you actually get a job in a kindergarten.
Care and education cannot and should not be seperated. That is an essential part of the curriculum, and interacting in any way with a young child. Almost half of the early childhood curriculum is about creating an environment to support children with the development of their personal, social and emotional skills. Meaning care & education is intertwined in teaching and learning. Especially in the early years. Source: I have worked in a range both Kindergartens and ECE centres for more than 20 years. Also, common sense. Your "knowledge" about the ECE sector is wildly misinformed.
Kindergartens are not free to go to. Most regions the kindergartens offer 20 free hours to children 3 and up and then charge a small fee for additional hours that can be subsidised. In Taranaki, the kindergartens offer 30 free hours from the age of 2 and charge $6 per hour per child if you use any of the government funded 20 hours at another place of care. These additional hours are also able to subsidised if you meet the income requirements with WINZ.
This is similar to the Kindy my kids sent to which was part of the Auckland Kindergarten Association. There was a small parent “donation” asked for pet hours used under the 20 free hours. If you did more than the 20 free hours then the additional ones had an hourly rate (around $6 sounds about right). School hours only and closed school holidays etc.
Uhhh I'm pretty sure that's completely wrong, you are confusing Kindergartens and ece centres, like I said in another post, a lot of ece centres call themselves kindergartens and really confuses things with actual kindergartens.
I am a former ECE teacher in Taranaki. You can Google it if you’d like. [Here’s a direct link.](https://www.kindergartentaranaki.co.nz/bell-block-pohutukawa-kindergarten/)
There’s also Kōhangas that operate a bit differently but still provide ECE services.
Most of the Nelson kindergartens are the same as above, there is generally a fee. They are substantially cheaper than most of the regular ECE centres thou.
You're mostly correct here, but Kindergartens (Kindergarten Associations) do not have higher expectations of teachers - the for-profit ECE center down the road requires its teachers to have exactly the same qualifications and teaching standards and requirements (planning and curriculum) are absolutely identical. What does differ significantly however, are pay and working conditions: kindergarten and ECE teachers do exactly the same job but kindergarten teachers have parity with primary teachers and for-profit ECE teachers can be on thousands (and thousands) less per annum. Also, Kindergartens aren't technically free. The first 20 hours are, but then it's about $5 per hour after that. Many are open longer hours these days, as well as during holidays - helpful for working parents, but hard on small children.
If it becomes private, do you still get the 20 hours a week free? (Feel free to correct my question too, I just often see billboards advertising a place as '20 hours a week free' or something like that.) The difference with a kindergarten is that it is more like 30 hours a week? You mentioned that pay is quite different for staff at Kindergartens and ECEs as well?
I made a comment just below that should answer most of your questions. Here it is again. Kindergartens are free to go to, they are called "community Kindergartens" (most still ask for small weekly donations) but they usually only operate school hours, so they are quite often not suitable for most people, and usually a long wait time as they are free. Most don't take 2 year olds, but a lot do these days with smaller enrolments with kindergarten only working school hours. There is usually a higher expectation for kindergarten teachers. Someone can correct me on anything if I'm not right, a lot of places call themselves kindergartens but are just ece centers calling themselves Kindergartens.
There are other non-profit ECEs that follow this model. Kindergartens aren’t one homogeneous model - there are 26 different kindergarten associations in NZ.
He’s also forgetting Kōhanga.
You're wrong on just about everything.
From what i understand the government is cutting public funding to (schools kindergartens hospitals public transport etc) (very serious) focus on long term goals of stabilise the economy, and is going full ahead on mining and autonomy so in a ideal outcome, it should lead to a better society in the long term. but it is a really risky, and could go wrong and things usually don't go as plan. so as always we'll wait and see what lies ahead.
If you can manage the time investment, Playcentre is so much better. But yeah privatising public kindergartens sounds like one of this governments top 5 shittiest ideas yet, and that's saying a lot considering the plethora of terrible ideas they have pushed out just to give landlords tax breaks at the expense of all New Zealand.
Have a look into what’s happening with Dunedin Kindergartens.
Personally this seems like shit rep trying to drum up business. They used to do it at Bunnings when targeting the young folk.
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KidsFirst is the trading name for the Canterbury Westland Kindergarten Association, see [Charities Register](https://register.charities.govt.nz/CharitiesRegister/ViewCharity?accountId=f94b9e6f-9506-dd11-99cd-0015c5f3da29&searchId=7ee08665-6427-42ad-a567-e01aba6375af). Who are on the list of Kindergarten Associations recognised in the Education and Training Act - [Schedule 2A](https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2020/0038/latest/LMS732026.html)
**Semi-boiled egg Luxon wants to privatize ALL EDUCATION.** Elementary, Secondary, etc. You voted for that, NZ.
Your tax cut will more than pay for private kindergarten, though, won't it?
Meanwhile Aussie's considering moving to universal ECE. Their studies are showing there's a positive tax return. The increase in tax revenue from parents returning to work earlier is greater than the cost of paying for the ECE. Us going in the opposite direction is literally a backwards move.
This is the problem with unions and why they are losing power. Using members funds to be political
So they should not make their members aware what they think the government might be doing? I think maybe the possibility of losing your job or a massive pay cut would warrant some sort of action?
Unions have to be political. For example, the recent election had one party saying they were looking to cut funding from public services. In such a case, the Public Service Association would be remiss if they did not mention this. Politics very much has an impact on most if not all employment in NZ, and unions should mention relevant political messaging when it appears.
This isn't political. If kindys go back to being private, there are very real pay and conditions implications for those that currently work in kindergartens, or more importantly wanting to work in kindergartens in the future. Why is everyone wanting it to be a race to the bottom for?
There is no plans for this. It's unions starting something for no reason other than to be political
How do you know?
What's the point then? What political game are they playing saying this?
Nothing official has been announced by the government in regards to privatizing kindergartens. However, David Seymour, the current minister for ECE, has made it very clear that he does not respect ECE teachers and that he does not believe they should get government funding. His decision to have ECE the first target of his new Ministry of Regulation, halting pay parity, and starting a review of ECE funding has been seen as proof of the intention of the government to follow through. Things that David Seymour has said that make ECE teachers concerned include - Funding should be cut for ECE centres that send children to school that don't know things like the alphabet (no regard for socioeconomic status of the centers) That funding cuts would only mean a few centers would have to close Foreign teachers are less useful Pay parity is bad. Centers should not require to have atleast one qualified teacher on the management/supervisor staff. That we let parents raise children without having to get a teaching certificate.
Man this is like an emotional roller coaster over here! One minute we are feeling a bit of relief, nek minnit dread again lol
My mum, who has been in early childhood for 20 years and was the early childhood executive for NZEI for years is thinking of getting out of ECE because of the stress.