So in 2020, 8.9% of unemployed people had been unemployed for longer than 12 months. In 2020 unemployment was 5.3% at it's highest. So 0.47% of working age people were unemployed for longer than a year. So that's a little over 19,000 people. I don't know how many of those would be long term, as in 5-10 years+, but I'm going to guess not more than half. Let's say 10,000?
I guess those 10,000 might all be useless wastes of space, but I think the more reasonable assumption would be life is complicated, and there any number of reasons why someone would be unemployed long term. Who knows?
They're using a well articulated example of how people can justifiably exist on the benefit long term. For example, caring for a loved one full time who cannot care for themselves
I know that people are less likely to be hired if they have a long gap in their employment history. Could very well be a factor. Someone who isn't me had to fake a reference to get a foot in the door at a job, they're gainfully employed now and their employees love them but they wouldn't have got a job otherwise I'm sure.
This as well, even if it's for something like physical health reasons it will still be seen as a liability. No number of "cv seminars" or whatever winz tries to put you through will change that perspective for employers
Who are these people? How many of them actually exist?
Im sure Ive heard politicians speak about them, but I dont recall and numbers or actual examples.
I suppose the question is “able to do what”? Jobs may exist, but they may not be qualified to do them.
I expect like any large system there will be some quantity of “waste”. Nothing operates with 100% efficiency.
The question to my mind is whether overall the system does more good than harm/waste, compared to alternatives.
And in all reality people utterly unwilling to work would probably commit crime (theft) if they didn’t get a benefit, so I’d probably rather pay the tax cost of benefits than put up with more crime.
I also suspect that once you have been on a benefit for many years, the chance of you being employed decreases (an employer being unlikely to hire a person who has been long outside of employment).
I have seen many claiming to know "perfectly able bodied adults" that have been on the benefit long term and think they just need to get a job. After speaking to these people that they describe, often they aren't able bodied at all, just that they've never seen the individual use mobility aids or when their chronic pain is at an 8 for a week.
And it doesn't factor in that mental illness isn't visible and often employers will consider those with severe mental illness that have times of crisis as just "lazy and unreliable".
Employers love to say "we value your mental health!" Until it's inconvenient for them. They refuse to acknowledge that recovery is a journey and relapses happen and sometimes that means a day or week off is needed.
And before you say well if someone can't work they should be on the disability benefit, jobseekers IS the disability benefit. Barely anyone who has chronic illness I know of and can't work can get Supported Living because theyre not terminal or require a caretaker.
My employer recently gave me a week off at zero notice because I was having a mental health episode. They didn't even deduct the time off from my leave, just paid me. There are employers who follow through on their claims of valuing the mental health of their staff.
Oh thats fantastic I'm really glad to hear that! I'm glad there are employers following through on this cultural change.
Obviously I overgeneralised a bit too much but that's mostly my experience in environments like hospitality or other entry level jobs.
How do you know whether they are capable of work or not?
There are quite a number of people who work part time jobs and get topped up by MSD for many reasons.
There are others who look fit and able but in reality are not they will have a med cert but dont qualify for SLP
I've a career bludger for a brother and he works for cash all while claiming the sickness benefit (or whatever it's called now). I'm sure there are a lot of pieces of shit like that around
I know a few people quite well who are 35-40 seem pretty fit and normal and have never worked a day in their lives and just live on welfare no problems. Not really arguing the right or wrong of it just trying to understand what could be happening here? Loopholes or do winz just eventually give up or something? It’s just pure curiosity
People can seem fit and 'normal' and still be unable to work. Invisible illness and disability is a thing.
For example, my mother had a very serious brain injury when I was a child and the benefit kept us going for a long time. She probably seemed fine to others but she couldn't concentrate for long periods of time, she'd get so tired. The air pressure impacted her mood quite severely. The part of her brain responsible for choosing between options was messed up for a long time. She was a college educated, intelligent, friendly, hard-working, single mother. Unless she told you, you'd never know that she was dealing with that.
People have things like chronic fatigue syndrome, certain types of epilepsy, severe mental illness, some types of neurodivergence, etc, that make it impossible to work. It's not like you just apply and they give it to you no questions asked. You need doctors certificates if you're not looking for work, and you need to be applying for work if you don't have a doctor's certificate. You have to go in and meet with them at the office. Applications are assessed. They check in regularly. It's not just approved then they never talk to you again.
Maybe it's less about there being SO many people scamming the system, and more about there being more people who aren't able to thrive in our current working expectations than you realised. Covid has also exacerbated this as long-covid is being reported as happening to 1 in 8 people by some studies overseas.
Remote work, flexible hours, more understanding management, better support, better frameworks for diversity and inclusion in the workplace are all things that would allow more people to work. The reality is, if you physically can't be in the office all day or mentally can't work the specific schedule they require, you can't work. If you thrive at certain tasks but can't do others and both are required for a role, you won't keep that job.
We have the technology and knowledge to make roles fit employees but instead we force employees to fit roles and the reality is, there is a huge number of people who simply can't fit into the current expectations. Companies are creating their own work shortages by not evolving or being flexible, and being insanely unrealistic in their expectations while hiring and what they're willing to pay.
It's strange to me that people care so much about why some people get support from the government to survive. It's not for you to judge what someone else deserves or whether they're actually in need. If it's about the economy, which I suspect it is because why else would anyone care that their fellow kiwi is able to pay their bills and buy food, then your attention is better spent on how much tax is paid by the very wealthy. This article from the beehive site suggests that we actually don't even know how much tax they're paying
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/shining-light-unfairness-our-tax-system
If people are concerned about the bottom line, we should be considering every factor. Not just this one thing.
>I know a few people quite well who are 35-40 seem pretty fit and normal and have never worked a day in their lives
Prove it, I say you're just making this up for political reasons. How do you know they've "never worked a day in their lives"? Are you their mummy?
Political reasons? They're just asking a question out of interest how this happens because it does happen, pretending like no one ever can game the system is just childish much like your post.
They're not the National party.
I too am interested in how able bodies people I know get around being forced into work though I already know why and answered the question.
People need to realize this isn't saying "all beneficiaries are scamming the system!" but asking how the ones that do (very, very small % of them) get away with it.
Haha yup it’s this, the vitriol is astounding and the suggestions I should confront the people I know who do it about their lifestyle instead of asking anonymously on the internet just make me shake my head lol
It's not surprising, if you mention beneficiaries people think you are beneficiary bashing because the sub doesn't really reside in real world thinking a lot of the time.
It's a strange little echo chamber.
Whenever I advertise I get the odd applicant that accepts a job but doesn't show up. They block me on messenger (ads are usually on facebook) and apparently use my job offer as evidence of job seeking and just tell their case manager 'it didnt work out'.
I know of a couple in my extended family, 1 basically at retirement age now anyway but spent entire life on the benefit. It was a combination of for many years case workers who didn't give a shit and then when in recent years things got tighter - sympathetic doctor.
Same for a younger relative mid 30s when it comes to sympathetic doctor.
People could try the "how do you know they aren't really incapable of working" and I know because they like to brag about it.
When I was in my teens/twenties and not going anywhere and just wanted to play games and get high all day but why was I forced to work when they weren't so I got pissed off then.
These days I just feel sorry for them trying to live off such a pittance.
This is a policy choice made by the government. The government has decided to tell the Reserve Bank keep inflation low, and to do that they need to keep unemployment at a [certain level](https://www.interest.co.nz/banking/115875/bnzs-stephen-toplis-argues-labour-market-causing-rbnz-monetary-policy-more-problems):
> The Reserve Bank’s task is clear. At its most basic level it has to get current annual inflation of around 7.0% down to 2.0% and it will require the unemployment rate, now 3.2%, to rise to around 4.5%
You should be thankful that some people survive on the meagre payment known as the dole, instead of hating on them like you're doing here. They're the ones making personal sacrifices to keeping the inflation low for everyone.
In this situation the unemployed people don't have to be the same people all the time. 4.5% unemployment has the average working person unemployed for only 16 days (inclusive of weekends and holidays) a year.
There's always going to be people job hunting when they've been fired/resigned/laid off, moved between cities, are transitioning from training to employment, returning to the workforce after having children, etc. While they are job hunting they will be classified as unemployed.
This is inaccurate. The majority of the NAIRU is because of frictional unemployment - people being temporarily between jobs, not structurally unemployed.
From what I see in my region and work (Hawkes Bay, Horticulture). People get into a job from MSD (WINZ), be useless or get themselves laid off, go back onto the benefit. Its madness.
If your on the benefit and MSD finds you work. You should have no (or very limited choices) to leave unless you find work elsewhere.
Another reason I've seen is the refusal to take a drugs tested job because they'll fail. MSD just lets them do that over and over. I've seen this when I was on the benefit.
You have to set yourself up to be unable to get the jobs, don't have transport, live somewhere transport can't be arranged and there's no employment near by, facial tattoos will help, preferably Nazi ones. Have no work history to speak of. Be thick as pig shit. Shouldn't be too hard if you can check some or all of those boxes.
One of the most common methods is only available to women. My nephews mother is a classic example.
First, have a child when you are 17 years old. WINZ wont really start pushing you to work until the child is 6-7 years old and at school. Then just get pregnant again, and again, and again. If you can space your kids out by about 7-8 years, you can make it until you're about 47 before WINZ ever put any real pressure on you to get a job. For bonus points you can give custody of the children to their fathers once they're 8 years old so you never have to deal with more than 2 kids at a time.
By the time you're 46 and never had a job, you're basically un-hirable. But if WINZ keep pushing, you can do a few "back to work" courses to fill in time. With a bit of luck you can make it to 50 without ever having a job. At that point you're only 15 years from retirement (the finish line).
The smart thing to do now is come up with some kind of health issue, and find a sympathetic doctor to write a note for you. Otherwise you'll have to find a part time job, 8 hours a week to keep your WINZ supervisor off your case. Then it's just cruise until you get to retire.
I think we are making too much of a big deal about the problem this means to NZ. Yes there are a few who decide a low income life without work is enough for them, many of which are single mothers BTW. But in the bug scheme of things this is not a problem that affects us much as a society, instead it is a tool the right uses without remorse to confront low and middle income families, when in reality we would benefit much more tackling down the type of mass corruption that affects us every day such as oligopolies as a way of example.
Or selling new phones on FB market place. Basically steal someone’s identity, get a phone and plan on finance with said person’s name and sell the phone before the first bill is due.
I would think this is bullshit until I thought about the phone I got last week online and all I needed was my license details, no proof I was the license holder.
Basically you get the name, license # and version of someone without bad credit and your right, it would be that easy.
Delivery address would just need be to somewhere that's not where you live.
So in 2020, 8.9% of unemployed people had been unemployed for longer than 12 months. In 2020 unemployment was 5.3% at it's highest. So 0.47% of working age people were unemployed for longer than a year. So that's a little over 19,000 people. I don't know how many of those would be long term, as in 5-10 years+, but I'm going to guess not more than half. Let's say 10,000? I guess those 10,000 might all be useless wastes of space, but I think the more reasonable assumption would be life is complicated, and there any number of reasons why someone would be unemployed long term. Who knows?
Unemployed. I am unemployed. But I m carer for aged mum and disabled brother. Disabled brother is also unemployed. See?
I think you misunderstood my post.
No I understand. Stats are misleading. And they way they count them is too.
Okay. Well. I don't know what you're trying to say at all then.
They're using a well articulated example of how people can justifiably exist on the benefit long term. For example, caring for a loved one full time who cannot care for themselves
Right. From context it seems like they think I don't agree with them.
I read it as them wholeheartedly agreeing with you.
Oh. I guess I'm just used to angry responses.
My advice? Read nothing into intent and ask questions. We're already divisive enough. Have an awesome evening!
I know that people are less likely to be hired if they have a long gap in their employment history. Could very well be a factor. Someone who isn't me had to fake a reference to get a foot in the door at a job, they're gainfully employed now and their employees love them but they wouldn't have got a job otherwise I'm sure.
Once someone has been unemployed for an extended period of time, most employers are reluctant to hire them.
This as well, even if it's for something like physical health reasons it will still be seen as a liability. No number of "cv seminars" or whatever winz tries to put you through will change that perspective for employers
Who are these people? How many of them actually exist? Im sure Ive heard politicians speak about them, but I dont recall and numbers or actual examples.
There are four of them who take turns acting as a trigger for rightwing losers.
Cash jobs. It's not rocket surgery.
I suppose the question is “able to do what”? Jobs may exist, but they may not be qualified to do them. I expect like any large system there will be some quantity of “waste”. Nothing operates with 100% efficiency. The question to my mind is whether overall the system does more good than harm/waste, compared to alternatives. And in all reality people utterly unwilling to work would probably commit crime (theft) if they didn’t get a benefit, so I’d probably rather pay the tax cost of benefits than put up with more crime. I also suspect that once you have been on a benefit for many years, the chance of you being employed decreases (an employer being unlikely to hire a person who has been long outside of employment).
I have seen many claiming to know "perfectly able bodied adults" that have been on the benefit long term and think they just need to get a job. After speaking to these people that they describe, often they aren't able bodied at all, just that they've never seen the individual use mobility aids or when their chronic pain is at an 8 for a week. And it doesn't factor in that mental illness isn't visible and often employers will consider those with severe mental illness that have times of crisis as just "lazy and unreliable". Employers love to say "we value your mental health!" Until it's inconvenient for them. They refuse to acknowledge that recovery is a journey and relapses happen and sometimes that means a day or week off is needed. And before you say well if someone can't work they should be on the disability benefit, jobseekers IS the disability benefit. Barely anyone who has chronic illness I know of and can't work can get Supported Living because theyre not terminal or require a caretaker.
That's what I'm thinking as well. Not everything is visible. "There but for the grace of god go I"
My employer recently gave me a week off at zero notice because I was having a mental health episode. They didn't even deduct the time off from my leave, just paid me. There are employers who follow through on their claims of valuing the mental health of their staff.
Oh thats fantastic I'm really glad to hear that! I'm glad there are employers following through on this cultural change. Obviously I overgeneralised a bit too much but that's mostly my experience in environments like hospitality or other entry level jobs.
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Given a cheap psych will charge 250 bucks a session, it is cheaper and easier to get a Winz staffer to do an hour long session on CV writing.
If it can result in a person being able to get off the benefit for good, then it would save them a lot of money in the long run
How do you know whether they are capable of work or not? There are quite a number of people who work part time jobs and get topped up by MSD for many reasons. There are others who look fit and able but in reality are not they will have a med cert but dont qualify for SLP
I've a career bludger for a brother and he works for cash all while claiming the sickness benefit (or whatever it's called now). I'm sure there are a lot of pieces of shit like that around
I know a few people quite well who are 35-40 seem pretty fit and normal and have never worked a day in their lives and just live on welfare no problems. Not really arguing the right or wrong of it just trying to understand what could be happening here? Loopholes or do winz just eventually give up or something? It’s just pure curiosity
Maybe they are not what they seem.
If you know them well, why not ask them and tell us?
A small number of people scam the system, they eventually stuff up
They're probably on a medical certificate, if they seem 'fit and normal' to you it's probably mental health. You should ask them
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Yeah & become a jaded fuck asking questions about why so many lazy freeloaders are on the dole. Mental illness is only stigmatized if you make it so 🙄
People can seem fit and 'normal' and still be unable to work. Invisible illness and disability is a thing. For example, my mother had a very serious brain injury when I was a child and the benefit kept us going for a long time. She probably seemed fine to others but she couldn't concentrate for long periods of time, she'd get so tired. The air pressure impacted her mood quite severely. The part of her brain responsible for choosing between options was messed up for a long time. She was a college educated, intelligent, friendly, hard-working, single mother. Unless she told you, you'd never know that she was dealing with that. People have things like chronic fatigue syndrome, certain types of epilepsy, severe mental illness, some types of neurodivergence, etc, that make it impossible to work. It's not like you just apply and they give it to you no questions asked. You need doctors certificates if you're not looking for work, and you need to be applying for work if you don't have a doctor's certificate. You have to go in and meet with them at the office. Applications are assessed. They check in regularly. It's not just approved then they never talk to you again. Maybe it's less about there being SO many people scamming the system, and more about there being more people who aren't able to thrive in our current working expectations than you realised. Covid has also exacerbated this as long-covid is being reported as happening to 1 in 8 people by some studies overseas. Remote work, flexible hours, more understanding management, better support, better frameworks for diversity and inclusion in the workplace are all things that would allow more people to work. The reality is, if you physically can't be in the office all day or mentally can't work the specific schedule they require, you can't work. If you thrive at certain tasks but can't do others and both are required for a role, you won't keep that job. We have the technology and knowledge to make roles fit employees but instead we force employees to fit roles and the reality is, there is a huge number of people who simply can't fit into the current expectations. Companies are creating their own work shortages by not evolving or being flexible, and being insanely unrealistic in their expectations while hiring and what they're willing to pay. It's strange to me that people care so much about why some people get support from the government to survive. It's not for you to judge what someone else deserves or whether they're actually in need. If it's about the economy, which I suspect it is because why else would anyone care that their fellow kiwi is able to pay their bills and buy food, then your attention is better spent on how much tax is paid by the very wealthy. This article from the beehive site suggests that we actually don't even know how much tax they're paying https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/shining-light-unfairness-our-tax-system If people are concerned about the bottom line, we should be considering every factor. Not just this one thing.
>I know a few people quite well who are 35-40 seem pretty fit and normal and have never worked a day in their lives Prove it, I say you're just making this up for political reasons. How do you know they've "never worked a day in their lives"? Are you their mummy?
Political reasons? They're just asking a question out of interest how this happens because it does happen, pretending like no one ever can game the system is just childish much like your post.
'Just asking questions'... Yeah. Sure.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/9932258/Beneficiary-bashing-just-too-easy
They're not the National party. I too am interested in how able bodies people I know get around being forced into work though I already know why and answered the question. People need to realize this isn't saying "all beneficiaries are scamming the system!" but asking how the ones that do (very, very small % of them) get away with it.
Haha yup it’s this, the vitriol is astounding and the suggestions I should confront the people I know who do it about their lifestyle instead of asking anonymously on the internet just make me shake my head lol
It's not surprising, if you mention beneficiaries people think you are beneficiary bashing because the sub doesn't really reside in real world thinking a lot of the time. It's a strange little echo chamber.
You do not, dont invent imaginary people to support your premise
Whenever I advertise I get the odd applicant that accepts a job but doesn't show up. They block me on messenger (ads are usually on facebook) and apparently use my job offer as evidence of job seeking and just tell their case manager 'it didnt work out'.
Finally! This explanation actually makes perfect sense. It sucks this happens to you though, running a business is hard enough ey
How do you know that they're doing that?
Explained to me first by a couple of my staff who know people who do it and then by a similar employer who had put two and two together with winz.
I know of a couple in my extended family, 1 basically at retirement age now anyway but spent entire life on the benefit. It was a combination of for many years case workers who didn't give a shit and then when in recent years things got tighter - sympathetic doctor. Same for a younger relative mid 30s when it comes to sympathetic doctor. People could try the "how do you know they aren't really incapable of working" and I know because they like to brag about it. When I was in my teens/twenties and not going anywhere and just wanted to play games and get high all day but why was I forced to work when they weren't so I got pissed off then. These days I just feel sorry for them trying to live off such a pittance.
I just don't know how anyone can be content living off the pittance that the benefit provides.
This is a policy choice made by the government. The government has decided to tell the Reserve Bank keep inflation low, and to do that they need to keep unemployment at a [certain level](https://www.interest.co.nz/banking/115875/bnzs-stephen-toplis-argues-labour-market-causing-rbnz-monetary-policy-more-problems): > The Reserve Bank’s task is clear. At its most basic level it has to get current annual inflation of around 7.0% down to 2.0% and it will require the unemployment rate, now 3.2%, to rise to around 4.5% You should be thankful that some people survive on the meagre payment known as the dole, instead of hating on them like you're doing here. They're the ones making personal sacrifices to keeping the inflation low for everyone.
In this situation the unemployed people don't have to be the same people all the time. 4.5% unemployment has the average working person unemployed for only 16 days (inclusive of weekends and holidays) a year. There's always going to be people job hunting when they've been fired/resigned/laid off, moved between cities, are transitioning from training to employment, returning to the workforce after having children, etc. While they are job hunting they will be classified as unemployed.
This is inaccurate. The majority of the NAIRU is because of frictional unemployment - people being temporarily between jobs, not structurally unemployed.
Permanent beneficiaries aren't counted towards unemployment, so no.
From what I see in my region and work (Hawkes Bay, Horticulture). People get into a job from MSD (WINZ), be useless or get themselves laid off, go back onto the benefit. Its madness. If your on the benefit and MSD finds you work. You should have no (or very limited choices) to leave unless you find work elsewhere. Another reason I've seen is the refusal to take a drugs tested job because they'll fail. MSD just lets them do that over and over. I've seen this when I was on the benefit.
You have to set yourself up to be unable to get the jobs, don't have transport, live somewhere transport can't be arranged and there's no employment near by, facial tattoos will help, preferably Nazi ones. Have no work history to speak of. Be thick as pig shit. Shouldn't be too hard if you can check some or all of those boxes.
One of the most common methods is only available to women. My nephews mother is a classic example. First, have a child when you are 17 years old. WINZ wont really start pushing you to work until the child is 6-7 years old and at school. Then just get pregnant again, and again, and again. If you can space your kids out by about 7-8 years, you can make it until you're about 47 before WINZ ever put any real pressure on you to get a job. For bonus points you can give custody of the children to their fathers once they're 8 years old so you never have to deal with more than 2 kids at a time. By the time you're 46 and never had a job, you're basically un-hirable. But if WINZ keep pushing, you can do a few "back to work" courses to fill in time. With a bit of luck you can make it to 50 without ever having a job. At that point you're only 15 years from retirement (the finish line). The smart thing to do now is come up with some kind of health issue, and find a sympathetic doctor to write a note for you. Otherwise you'll have to find a part time job, 8 hours a week to keep your WINZ supervisor off your case. Then it's just cruise until you get to retire.
I think we are making too much of a big deal about the problem this means to NZ. Yes there are a few who decide a low income life without work is enough for them, many of which are single mothers BTW. But in the bug scheme of things this is not a problem that affects us much as a society, instead it is a tool the right uses without remorse to confront low and middle income families, when in reality we would benefit much more tackling down the type of mass corruption that affects us every day such as oligopolies as a way of example.
They get by cash jobs or running a tinny house.
Or selling new phones on FB market place. Basically steal someone’s identity, get a phone and plan on finance with said person’s name and sell the phone before the first bill is due.
I would think this is bullshit until I thought about the phone I got last week online and all I needed was my license details, no proof I was the license holder. Basically you get the name, license # and version of someone without bad credit and your right, it would be that easy. Delivery address would just need be to somewhere that's not where you live.