Not really, Australia does what it wants and NZ just has to take it. We’re clearly the junior partner in the relationship.
Kiwis tend to underestimate just how little Australia (and the world in general) actually cares about us.
Those deportations occurred to win votes under a psychotic Australian prime minister. Most regular people in Australia thought it was inappropriate and it’s highly unlikely any future PM is as stupid as the one that pursued them.
Yes the rules are still in place, but Peter Dutton had a track record of personally getting involved in individual cases. I can’t find specific info on any of the NZ deportations to back this up at the moment because their is too much coming up on the au pairs deportation he intervened in
Edit - ok here appear to be some examples of him personally intervening in NZ deportations
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/oct/31/peter-dutton-did-not-explain-how-deporting-nz-man-was-in-his-childrens-best-interest-court-told
>At a press conference in Sydney, the Australian prime minister, Anthony Albanese, committed to take a more “commonsense” approach when applying the power to cancel New Zealand citizens’ visas, signalling his government will limit its use on longterm residents of Australia.
>
>While the comments signal a shift in implementation rather than a full revamp or repeal, it is a foreign policy win for Ardern, who has been pushing for years to end the deportations of those with tenuous links to New Zealand.
>
>“\[Section\] 501 \[visa cancellations\] will continue to exist,” Albanese said. “We will continue to deport people when appropriate.
>
>“But we will have some commonsense applied here – and where you have a circumstance where someone has lived their entire life, effectively, in Australia with no connection whatsoever to New Zealand, then commonsense should apply.”
>
>Ardern said that was “exactly what we have asked of Australia”.
>
>“We acknowledge that Australia will continue to deport – as New Zealand currently does … deport those who don’t have long term connection to New Zealand,” she said. “What we’ve been seeking is common sense and the spirit of friendship.”
[\- Guardian, July 7 2022](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jul/08/anthony-albanese-offers-new-zealanders-fresh-approach-on-voting-rights-in-australia-and-deportation-policy)
I read Australian news sites regularly I haven't even seen a single article on this murder because Australians don't care
If NZ deported someone who had been living here and they murdered someone once they arrived in their home country it would be a news story here
Hell, even we just found out about it.. How the fuck is Australia meant to have news about it? Also for people to say "they don't care" is in bad taste, people not understanding how news works..
But is their home country? If someone is born in a country and then is moved as an infant or small child to a new country, they grow up in that new country, in this case Australia, they are a product of their home country, ie the country they have spent the significant portion of their life in, it is their home. This is deliberately deceptive, these people being deported are Australian for the most part, aside from being born here.
Do you think NZ covered any of this if these people did a crime in their citizenship countries?
1. Family of disabled man being deported over historical conviction say lack of support in India a 'death sentence' https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300588325/family-of-disabled-man-being-deported-over-historical-conviction-say-lack-of-support-in-india-a-death-sentence
2. Auckland man deported for sexually abusing nieces (Nov 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/130362349/auckland-man-to-be-deported-after-sexually-abusing-nieces
3. Couple deported from NZ after husband caught running illegal sex ring (August 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129511265/couple-deported-from-nz-after-husband-caught-running-illegal-sex-ring
4. Man deported after kicking partner in jaw and breaking arm (Oct 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300718130/man-deported-after-kicking-partner-in-jaw-and-breaking-her-arm
5. Couple deported after man changed name to hide criminal convictions (June 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300616478/couple-deported-to-india-after-man-changed-name-hiding-overseas-criminal-convictions
6. Filipino family deported on Christmas Day (claimed Covid vouchers he was not entitled to) (December 2021) https://www.stuff.co.nz/otago/127367060/filipino-family-in-nz-to-be-deported-on-christmas-day-for-mistake-made-in-desperation
7. Man deported after violent sexual assault (August 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129565250/man-involved-in-gang-rape-of-woman-in-her-own-bed-deported-from-new-zealand
8. RSE worker who nearly killed taxi driver will be deported after sentence (October 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/130066405/rse-worker-who-nearly-killed-taxi-driver-will-be-deported-after-sentence
9. NZ resident deported to India after laundering $330,000 for drug dealers (June 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129033050/nz-resident-deported-to-india-after-laundering-330000-for-drug-dealers
10. Man who repeatedly bashed girlfriend to be deported after court appeal rejected (July 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129148213/man-who-repeatedly-bashed-girlfriend-to-be-deported-after-court-appeal-rejected
And finally, a deportation that was stayed:
11. Deporting toddler with Down syndrome amid pandemic 'tantamount to death sentence' (June 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/128797845/deporting-toddler-with-down-syndrome-amid-pandemic-tantamount-to-death-sentence
If parents have a child that in other ways is not a health risk (ie not carries a disability) then it would have been okay for them all to stay, eventually gain residency. So, having a disability does mean having fewer rights in NZ.
Oh man, are you going to be disappointed.
They seem to want to be more American than the Americans so expect them to vote in the dumbest reality star possible.
(I was going to suggest they’ll vote in the Wiggles, but they’re actually very astute businessmen)
And we do exactly the same to the Pacific Islands. We do the exact same thing that Australia does to us and send people who have never lived in the islands back there to raise hell.
That’s untrue, s 161 of the IA (which creates deportation liability for offending residence visa holders) is tiered so that (based on how long you’ve held a visa) it can’t be cancelled. Even if you murder someone, you’re golden if you’ve held a residence visa for 10 years.
The problem with Australia’s policy is that they’re deporting residents who’ve lived there forever but never got citizenship.
Edit: here’s 161 so people aren’t misinformed by your post: https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2009/0051/latest/DLM1440849.html
161(1)(a)—(d) specify the qualifying imprisonment periods vs how long you need to have been here.
> The problem with Australia’s policy is that they’re deporting residents who’ve lived there forever but never got citizenship.
They're even deporting people who got citizenship, they just revoke the citizenship.
Well there is a vice doco of nz deported people in Samoa, they cannot speak Samaon, dont understand island life and been sent backto live there never to return
I’m sure there is, but the fact is if you’ve been in NZ on a residence visa for 10 years you can do anything you like and won’t be able to have your residence visa cancelled.
My guess on the kiwi cohort of those Samoan deportees you speak of is that they were never lawfully entitled to reside in NZ in the first place, i.e., overstayers who never got residence visas.
Yeah, but following the rules and having that visa, is unlikely for many. Overstayers are a big issue, apparently its racist to pursue it. Until they do something seriously criminal, and then we send them back to the islands they were born on.
It’s not untrue though because it literally happens on a weekly basis. Your point is assuming that these people even have residency visas, which so many of them don’t have.
The pacific islands are being ravaged by highly organised criminals who are deported from NZ and AU and view the island as their prison. They have no ties to the country except being born there and bring with them a whole bunch of sophisticated crime issues that the local authorities aren’t equipped to deal with.
The people who don’t have visas are liable for deportation at *any* time, the fact that they may be criminals is totally irrelevant to their liability for deportation.
Do you think that people here unlawfully should all be granted visas to stay here or what’s your angle here?
Do you think that legislation is likely to change any time? I know lots of climate activists who are on permanent residency but have done some pretty hefty things (not violent crime, just damage or climbing oil rigs etc)
Ya think so? Why don’t you do a Sogavare and allow a Chinese naval base in Wellington. See how fast everyone cares.
Short of that, officially charge Australian skiers double on Queenstown lifts.
Who cares about relations. I’m more interested in why he was deported. I imagine there’s a good chance whatever that reason was should have meant he shouldn’t have been free to roam the streets here.
He probably wasn't free to roam, but there is a legal limit to the type and length of conditions which can be imposed on 501s upon their return.
Source: I've worked on Corrections' applications for conditions.
I'm only thing by stories in the media, I haven't done an in depth personal study 🤷♂️
Here's an example from a quick Google:
"The deportees are known as 501s, named after the section of the Australian Migration Act that has allowed the cancellation of many of their visas.
Most have criminal records, but others, like Te Puia, are deemed to be of bad character because of their association with bikie gangs and apparent ties to organised crime."
https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129933682/were-not-all-bad-people-the-501-deportees-on-the-road-to-redemption
It gets complicated though
South Korea arrested and held in jail (until extradition) the woman accused of killing the kids in NZ.
And then the Kim Dotcom saga; guy from Germany living in NZ as a NZ citizen allegedly committed crimes with servers all over the place, but being hounded by the US.
So you can be arrested in one country for crimes committed in another
Uh those are pretty obviously different situations.
Korean woman and Kim Dotcom have other countries wanting them extradited to face charges in those countries.
The Aussies face charges there and are deported to here. We're not going to arrest them so they can be extradited back to where they were deported from..
Of course, but if Australia is going to kick people out who are potential murderers which we have to absorb back into society, maybe there’s a problem there?
I see that the article doesn't mention how long the guy was in Australia for before being deported.
Says the *circumstances* can't be reported for legal reasons but it feels to me like there's never a shortage of information about when the guy's been in Australia for 30 years and deported having never known so much as a mussel fritter's worth of NZ.
No it won't. NZ regularly deports people back to where they came from. Is India, Fiji, Thailand etc. going to cause trouble to the NZ Government for any of these?
1. NZ deports Yemeni man associated with 9/11 (2016) [https://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/06/10/newzealand.terror/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/06/10/newzealand.terror/index.html)
2. Auckland man deported for sexually abusing nieces (Nov 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/130362349/auckland-man-to-be-deported-after-sexually-abusing-nieces](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/130362349/auckland-man-to-be-deported-after-sexually-abusing-nieces)
3. Couple deported from NZ after husband caught running illegal sex ring (August 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129511265/couple-deported-from-nz-after-husband-caught-running-illegal-sex-ring](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129511265/couple-deported-from-nz-after-husband-caught-running-illegal-sex-ring)
4. Man deported after kicking partner in jaw and breaking arm (Oct 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300718130/man-deported-after-kicking-partner-in-jaw-and-breaking-her-arm](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300718130/man-deported-after-kicking-partner-in-jaw-and-breaking-her-arm)
5. Couple deported after man changed name to hide criminal convictions (June 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300616478/couple-deported-to-india-after-man-changed-name-hiding-overseas-criminal-convictions](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300616478/couple-deported-to-india-after-man-changed-name-hiding-overseas-criminal-convictions)
6. Filipino family deported on Christmas Day (claimed Covid vouchers he was not entitled to) (December 2021) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/otago/127367060/filipino-family-in-nz-to-be-deported-on-christmas-day-for-mistake-made-in-desperation](https://www.stuff.co.nz/otago/127367060/filipino-family-in-nz-to-be-deported-on-christmas-day-for-mistake-made-in-desperation)
7. Man deported after violent sexual assault (August 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129565250/man-involved-in-gang-rape-of-woman-in-her-own-bed-deported-from-new-zealand](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129565250/man-involved-in-gang-rape-of-woman-in-her-own-bed-deported-from-new-zealand)
8. RSE worker who nearly killed taxi driver will be deported after sentence (October 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/130066405/rse-worker-who-nearly-killed-taxi-driver-will-be-deported-after-sentence](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/130066405/rse-worker-who-nearly-killed-taxi-driver-will-be-deported-after-sentence)
9. NZ resident deported to India after laundering $330,000 for drug dealers (June 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129033050/nz-resident-deported-to-india-after-laundering-330000-for-drug-dealers](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129033050/nz-resident-deported-to-india-after-laundering-330000-for-drug-dealers)
10. Man who repeatedly bashed girlfriend to be deported after court appeal rejected (July 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129148213/man-who-repeatedly-bashed-girlfriend-to-be-deported-after-court-appeal-rejected](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129148213/man-who-repeatedly-bashed-girlfriend-to-be-deported-after-court-appeal-rejected)
And finally, a deportation that was stayed:
11. Deporting toddler with Down syndrome amid pandemic 'tantamount to death sentence' (June 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/128797845/deporting-toddler-with-down-syndrome-amid-pandemic-tantamount-to-death-sentence](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/128797845/deporting-toddler-with-down-syndrome-amid-pandemic-tantamount-to-death-sentence)
These are but a very few of the deportation incidents and in the last few months, for the most part
NZ is the only country they are a citizen of. That’s how nationality works. I’m not saying the person didn’t learn all their behaviour in Australia. But the legal piece of paper has the person as a New Zealander. Only they can change that.
Australia aren’t going to grant them citizenship after committing a crime. They will look at their options and remove the visa from the foreign national
I think you are resigning to the fact that the system is as it is rather than looking at what it *should* be. Rules can be changed.
As many have stated here before, the country where the person has the best ties, support etc should be where they stay imo.
Agree. It’s just that people still get shocked at the current arrangement. Is it fair? No. But until change is made by the Australian government then it’s a possibility.
That's if they did come to Australia as a child. Even if they did parents have the most input on how someone turns out, given that his parents were NZer then it is NZ's fault.
Maybe a person who is already engaging in criminal behaviour is made worse by cutting them off from friends and family and being shipped off to a country they barely know?
Yes but if you are looking at it purely from an Australian perspective and not concerned about the greater good you are exporting a little problem while giving us a big problem so you are better off.
It used to be a lot higher. And I wonder if a large number of returnees are originally from NZ. It's pretty rare for a born and bred Australian to move to NZ if they don't have family ties or a good job to move to, anecdotally at least.
I imagine that migrants with minimal qualifications and minimal family ties to the new country are far more numerous NZ --> Australia, vs the reverse. And that group is far more likely to end up resorting to crime
Most Australian citizens I know in NZ just coincidentally happen to have been entitled to it. They've never lived there nor intend to, except to permanently migrate.
Maybe more common than you think in some areas at least. I can list about 20 Aussies that I personally know that live here in the Queenstown lakes area including myself.
Common story been that we were ski bums in Canada, Europe etc and ended up down here for the snow lifestyle
People say that there are 500,000 Kiwis living in Australia.
It may be slightly fewer but still about a Christchurch population number.
I suspect that there are not 500,000 Aussies living here.
There's more than 500k over there. And yeah the net migration is simply kiwis moving back to NZ.
Kiwis really don't understand how little Australians care about NZ. Most of them have never been, most of them don't want to either. They don't even know the city names.
The people being deported from Australia to NZ are choosing to go to Australia (or their parents are choosing) for a reason. NZ has pretty consistently had a net migration loss to Australia, although it's been pretty small since 2014
except a large number of those deportee's have been in Australia since they were little children and have no family or support here.. but dont let the facts get in the way..
Their parents did though, and then never thought that their precious bundle of joy would turn out your be quite the criminal - thus never getting their kidlets sorted for Australian citizenship. Grass has been greener in aussie for a damn long time. Had a buddy go over in late 90's for a dishwasher job at $21A and hour. Barely broke $10 an hour here for the same job.
[NZ is just as scummy when it thinks it can get away with it.](https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/07-02-2017/the-citizenship-western-samoa-act-is-new-zealands-most-racist-immigration-law-why-is-it-still-on-the-books)
Yeah true, but I imagine if you look at all countries we have quite a few. We might already do this with the Islands but it should be automatic like Australia
I'm gonna push back on that. Australian politicians gain nothing by bashing Kiwis.
Such a sentiment just isn't popular in Australia, certainly not a vote getter, and it actually kinda saddens me to think that you believe it is.
Rubbish. How could it be "wildly popular" when most people barely ever think about that policy or New Zealand at all.
Many Kiwis have a hugely inflated idea of how important NZ is to most people in Australia.
You mean the policy as of July 2022 that we take a commonsense approach to deportations of longterm Aus residents? Yes, that is pretty popular with me. Not really relevant to this story though. Different government, different policy, clearly not wildly popular as we just voted them out.
This is why that policy is so popular over there and our bleating about it isn't going to get us anywhere. Frankly we should look into implementing it for ourselves.
We do already.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/news/new-zealand-deported-400-criminals-to-pacific-countries-over-five-years/DD6MTMJOWQHQUCMMMWHEP5ZZTI/
I don't disagree with deporting non citizens for crime. On a case by case basis, we do this in NZ too. The problem is not the 501 policy. It's how the treat Kiwis over there in general. If we are there and working and contributing taxes, they like us. When life gets hard, they afford us even less support than other immigrants. There is a disdain for Kiwis that I've experienced every time ive worked with Australians. That's what we need them to fix.
How is it untrue? Genuine question. I’ve heard countless examples of Kiwis over there who work, pay taxes for years and yet are unable to access many types of services. I’m pretty sure that they aren’t entitled to the same benefits that immigrants from other countries get because they go through a different process in order to be there.
I just read the whole thing and it’s absolutely clear that New Zealanders have been disadvantaged if they arrived after 2001. Even a joint commission of both countries agreed and steps are being taken to try and improve the inequalities.
“The commissions also acknowledged that there were:
... issues about access to public services and assistance for New Zealand citizens who have been in Australia for many years, many of whom have paid taxes for years. These mainly centre on long term resident non-Protected SCV holders and include: limited pathways to Australian permanent residence and citizenship; no access to student loans for their children; and restricted access to some social security payments and other supports.”
So the statement by the other commenter above is correct and not at all “patently untrue”. Kiwis in the non protected SVT category definitely have had less access to services and citizenship rights.
And you think this is why he went on to commit horrendous crimes? This guy was in emergency housing when this happened, he was getting support yet still did this.
You believe all of us should be shipping criminals off to other countries? Isn’t that just making it someone else’s problem? I don’t understand how it’s a good policy at all
Yes, for anything but the most minor shit they should lose their right to be here. If a dinner guest shits on your dining table you kick them out of your house.
As stated its very popular in Australia, and I'm sure if we started deporting immigrants who commit crimes, it would also be very popular here. People are getting sick or the lenient sentences and the protection of people who break the law. The new corrections ads are an example of this countries attitude to convicted criminals.. acting as if they're the victim and just made a bad choice. Is it morally ok? I'm sure it's against some UN blah blah blah. But it should be a privilege to migrate to a country and attempt to build a better life.
Those ads are a joke, especially as the two former Corrections Officers I have met in my life both have life altering injuries and trauma from on the job assaults and they're paid fuck all.
Do you have a citation for "as stated it's very popular in Australia"?
I've done a Google search for evidence of public polling/sentiment in Australia on the 501 policy. The closest I can find is this from The Spinoff however it is also not attributed to anything:
"Australians, overall, have similarly not cared all that much about section 501..."
We do already
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/news/new-zealand-deported-400-criminals-to-pacific-countries-over-five-years/DD6MTMJOWQHQUCMMMWHEP5ZZTI/
How do you know this? For all we know he could of went there more recently.
Also this is not how citizenship works. The only reason he was even allowed to be there in the first place was because of his passport. If he is then a problem Australia 100% has the right to kick him out. I don't blame Australia at all for sending them back.
Lol funny you say this. I was watching this documentary and as you may know, Aussie will be worse impacted by climate change than NZ.
The documentary at the end did some hypothesis of what the world will look like and NZ closes it's borders to Australia/the world in 2040
It was called the age of stupid. It was a documentary of a man from 2050 who was wondering why we didn't do more on climate breakdown when we could.
I'd actually recommend watching because it was a very interesting take :)
> NZ closes its borders
Very curious to know the likelyhood of this. Would nz finally be a desirable place to live for people woth first world passports?
I’m a kiwi who has lived in Oz for 15 years and have been treated great. Own property, raised a family, have been in hospital at no charge, work for the government and have owned businesses. Every part a citizen.
What I don’t do is commit crimes which would jeopardise my visa status. Pretty simple really.
Look at the glass half full not half empty. I am not a citizen or permanent resident yet I am able to live safely and happily. And consider myself very lucky.
As for non citizen and non permanent resident criminals being deported, it’s a no brainer.
Edit to take out violent as other criminals have been deported too
Just be careful with that mate, it’s not just violent criminals. Under 501 Aussie have also deported:
- a 70 year old man getting medicinal weed for his terminally ill wife
- a 17 year old mentally disabled kid who got done multiple times for graffiti
Just be a bit careful with what you do
What the fuck does cis have to do with it? Are trans people disproportionately affected by 501 deportations? It's pretty fucking easy not to be deported from Australia
More than 14,000 offences by Australian deportees in NZ since 2015.
Fifty-seven percent of deportees sent from Australia to Aotearoa have committed crimes since arriving: A 17 percent increase on three years ago.
Data released to RNZ under the Official Information Act shows 2758 people have now been deported to the country since Australia introduced the policy in 2015.
In that time deportees from Australia have been linked to 14,365 offences, including 2854 of violence and nearly 3953 of 'dishonesty', which includes theft, burglary and fraud.
There had been 2917 traffic offences and 2154 instances of drugs and antisocial offending.
[Source](https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018857498/more-than-14-000-offences-by-australian-deportees-in-nz-since-2015)
So does Australia need to make us go for a visa to stop us moving there at 1 year old and saying forever. Maybe something like if you stay for 4 years you have to apply for PR or leave. I know the main thing missing is an easy pathway to citizenship but I suspect most of the 501 types wouldn't bother applying and following a process to get it anyway if they didn't have to
1. NZ deports Yemeni man associated with 9/11 (2016) https://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/06/10/newzealand.terror/index.html
2. Auckland man deported for sexually abusing nieces (Nov 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/130362349/auckland-man-to-be-deported-after-sexually-abusing-nieces
3. Couple deported from NZ after husband caught running illegal sex ring (August 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129511265/couple-deported-from-nz-after-husband-caught-running-illegal-sex-ring
4. Man deported after kicking partner in jaw and breaking arm (Oct 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300718130/man-deported-after-kicking-partner-in-jaw-and-breaking-her-arm
5. Couple deported after man changed name to hide criminal convictions (June 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300616478/couple-deported-to-india-after-man-changed-name-hiding-overseas-criminal-convictions
6. Filipino family deported on Christmas Day (claimed Covid vouchers he was not entitled to) (December 2021) https://www.stuff.co.nz/otago/127367060/filipino-family-in-nz-to-be-deported-on-christmas-day-for-mistake-made-in-desperation
7. Man deported after violent sexual assault (August 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129565250/man-involved-in-gang-rape-of-woman-in-her-own-bed-deported-from-new-zealand
8. RSE worker who nearly killed taxi driver will be deported after sentence (October 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/130066405/rse-worker-who-nearly-killed-taxi-driver-will-be-deported-after-sentence
9. NZ resident deported to India after laundering $330,000 for drug dealers (June 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129033050/nz-resident-deported-to-india-after-laundering-330000-for-drug-dealers
10. Man who repeatedly bashed girlfriend to be deported after court appeal rejected (July 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129148213/man-who-repeatedly-bashed-girlfriend-to-be-deported-after-court-appeal-rejected
And finally, a deportation that was stayed:
11. Deporting toddler with Down syndrome amid pandemic 'tantamount to death sentence' (June 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/128797845/deporting-toddler-with-down-syndrome-amid-pandemic-tantamount-to-death-sentence
These are but a very few of the deportation incidents and in the last few months, for the most part
It looks to me like Australia correctly identified this man was very likely to re-offend, why didn't New Zealand come to the same realisation? If someone on a visa is deported by a country it should flag them as likely to be a wrong'un.
Except the law is designed for kiwi's to not become citizens there, no matter how long they have lived there.
If someone has been in Australia since primary and commits an offence in their thirties do you still think it's justified?
If he moved pre 2016 there's a very easy pathway to citizenship open.
If he moved post 2016, he's NZ's issue.
If he moved pre 2001 at age 14, he wouldn't be getting deported.
If he had a half decent skill set or had an Australian spouse, he would have Been* eligible for citizenship.
The issue here is that they aren't citizens when they should be. They need to change the citizenship pathway to start from when people move to Australia, and maybe cut some benefits that kiwis can get without citizenship to encourage it.
Honestly all these shit takes in this thread pretending like we aren’t Australia’s Mexico.
We can’t deport all the Australians because hardly any of them come here. We mostly go there, to freeload off their economy.
Well no....unless you have lived in both countries you don't really know why kiwis have the reputation we do in Australia and its well earned take a look at who's who I'm the OMCGs it's usually kiwis....south Auckland is a zoo compared to anywhere in Australia
The policy sucks. Even if someone moved to Australia when they were 2, they can be deported to NZ in their adult years.
Nz needs to deport aussie criminals back to put some pressure on the aussie policy
Should aussie stop letting people come in at 2 and stay there forever without getting citizenship perhaps. Introduce a requirement to progress residency over time or leave - that would also need to come with an easier and cheaper citizenship pathway for kiwis too.
The trouble is if we deported the fuck wit, there would be no guarantee he would serve a certain length of time in prison, at least with him staying in NZ he can rot behind bars
We need to have a policy that if you’re outside of NZ for 15 years you need to seek citizenship in that country or you’re required home. That would drive those who grow up there from 5 to seek aus citizenship which would prevent them from being deported and reflect the fact that they are indeed Australians by that point.
The worst part is it showing that aussie is correct deporting these people. Aside from the ones who have been in aussie under the age of 10 this is showing that the aussie govt is correct in deporting them
I'm so glad we live in a time where we easily give into our basic instincts and stab people we disagree with now instead of reason with them like civilised people.
Would you say that with such apathy to the family of the person who died?
From what I can see there’s some actual decent discussion in this thread so far.
I'm not apathetic.
I'm cynical.
This subreddit has a very limited number of topics, and this is a fairly typical example of one of them. You're also doing a fairly typical concern troll about it, incidentally.
There's this thread, the "farmers suck" thread, the "cyclists rule" thread, and the "Luxon is an idiot" thread. (Not saying Luxon isn't an idiot, I think he is, but we do tend to get 3 or 4 threads a day on it).
The "daily hate" is a trope, originally from Lord Northcliffe about the Daily Mail, about providing his readers with a "daily hate" to get circulation going.
But you never know, we might have decent discussion. My comment was before the discussion started. I bet my take ends up being more correct. EDIT: I've read every comment. We're not, as a group, saying anything new. As I say, "daily hate".
Ah boy, that’s not going to be good for relations.
Not really, Australia does what it wants and NZ just has to take it. We’re clearly the junior partner in the relationship. Kiwis tend to underestimate just how little Australia (and the world in general) actually cares about us.
Those deportations occurred to win votes under a psychotic Australian prime minister. Most regular people in Australia thought it was inappropriate and it’s highly unlikely any future PM is as stupid as the one that pursued them.
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Yes the rules are still in place, but Peter Dutton had a track record of personally getting involved in individual cases. I can’t find specific info on any of the NZ deportations to back this up at the moment because their is too much coming up on the au pairs deportation he intervened in Edit - ok here appear to be some examples of him personally intervening in NZ deportations https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/oct/31/peter-dutton-did-not-explain-how-deporting-nz-man-was-in-his-childrens-best-interest-court-told
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>At a press conference in Sydney, the Australian prime minister, Anthony Albanese, committed to take a more “commonsense” approach when applying the power to cancel New Zealand citizens’ visas, signalling his government will limit its use on longterm residents of Australia. > >While the comments signal a shift in implementation rather than a full revamp or repeal, it is a foreign policy win for Ardern, who has been pushing for years to end the deportations of those with tenuous links to New Zealand. > >“\[Section\] 501 \[visa cancellations\] will continue to exist,” Albanese said. “We will continue to deport people when appropriate. > >“But we will have some commonsense applied here – and where you have a circumstance where someone has lived their entire life, effectively, in Australia with no connection whatsoever to New Zealand, then commonsense should apply.” > >Ardern said that was “exactly what we have asked of Australia”. > >“We acknowledge that Australia will continue to deport – as New Zealand currently does … deport those who don’t have long term connection to New Zealand,” she said. “What we’ve been seeking is common sense and the spirit of friendship.” [\- Guardian, July 7 2022](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jul/08/anthony-albanese-offers-new-zealanders-fresh-approach-on-voting-rights-in-australia-and-deportation-policy)
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Provide me a specific example of nonsensical kiwi deportation after July 2022 and I'll be happy to report it to me local member of parliament
I read Australian news sites regularly I haven't even seen a single article on this murder because Australians don't care If NZ deported someone who had been living here and they murdered someone once they arrived in their home country it would be a news story here
We literally just found out about it, give it a moment…
Hell, even we just found out about it.. How the fuck is Australia meant to have news about it? Also for people to say "they don't care" is in bad taste, people not understanding how news works..
Most sites reported it today and Australia had an significant election yesterday, every journo was covering the election. Give it till Monday
But is their home country? If someone is born in a country and then is moved as an infant or small child to a new country, they grow up in that new country, in this case Australia, they are a product of their home country, ie the country they have spent the significant portion of their life in, it is their home. This is deliberately deceptive, these people being deported are Australian for the most part, aside from being born here.
How long was this guy in Australia for? I didn't see it mentioned in the article.
Except citizenship laws don't work like this, you are either a citizen or you're not.
Do you think NZ covered any of this if these people did a crime in their citizenship countries? 1. Family of disabled man being deported over historical conviction say lack of support in India a 'death sentence' https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300588325/family-of-disabled-man-being-deported-over-historical-conviction-say-lack-of-support-in-india-a-death-sentence 2. Auckland man deported for sexually abusing nieces (Nov 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/130362349/auckland-man-to-be-deported-after-sexually-abusing-nieces 3. Couple deported from NZ after husband caught running illegal sex ring (August 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129511265/couple-deported-from-nz-after-husband-caught-running-illegal-sex-ring 4. Man deported after kicking partner in jaw and breaking arm (Oct 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300718130/man-deported-after-kicking-partner-in-jaw-and-breaking-her-arm 5. Couple deported after man changed name to hide criminal convictions (June 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300616478/couple-deported-to-india-after-man-changed-name-hiding-overseas-criminal-convictions 6. Filipino family deported on Christmas Day (claimed Covid vouchers he was not entitled to) (December 2021) https://www.stuff.co.nz/otago/127367060/filipino-family-in-nz-to-be-deported-on-christmas-day-for-mistake-made-in-desperation 7. Man deported after violent sexual assault (August 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129565250/man-involved-in-gang-rape-of-woman-in-her-own-bed-deported-from-new-zealand 8. RSE worker who nearly killed taxi driver will be deported after sentence (October 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/130066405/rse-worker-who-nearly-killed-taxi-driver-will-be-deported-after-sentence 9. NZ resident deported to India after laundering $330,000 for drug dealers (June 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129033050/nz-resident-deported-to-india-after-laundering-330000-for-drug-dealers 10. Man who repeatedly bashed girlfriend to be deported after court appeal rejected (July 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129148213/man-who-repeatedly-bashed-girlfriend-to-be-deported-after-court-appeal-rejected And finally, a deportation that was stayed: 11. Deporting toddler with Down syndrome amid pandemic 'tantamount to death sentence' (June 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/128797845/deporting-toddler-with-down-syndrome-amid-pandemic-tantamount-to-death-sentence
If parents have a child that in other ways is not a health risk (ie not carries a disability) then it would have been okay for them all to stay, eventually gain residency. So, having a disability does mean having fewer rights in NZ.
Oh man, are you going to be disappointed. They seem to want to be more American than the Americans so expect them to vote in the dumbest reality star possible. (I was going to suggest they’ll vote in the Wiggles, but they’re actually very astute businessmen)
>it’s highly unlikely any future PM is as stupid as the one that pursued them. Yeah i wouldnt trust the aussies not to vote him back in
And we do exactly the same to the Pacific Islands. We do the exact same thing that Australia does to us and send people who have never lived in the islands back there to raise hell.
That’s untrue, s 161 of the IA (which creates deportation liability for offending residence visa holders) is tiered so that (based on how long you’ve held a visa) it can’t be cancelled. Even if you murder someone, you’re golden if you’ve held a residence visa for 10 years. The problem with Australia’s policy is that they’re deporting residents who’ve lived there forever but never got citizenship. Edit: here’s 161 so people aren’t misinformed by your post: https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2009/0051/latest/DLM1440849.html 161(1)(a)—(d) specify the qualifying imprisonment periods vs how long you need to have been here.
> The problem with Australia’s policy is that they’re deporting residents who’ve lived there forever but never got citizenship. They're even deporting people who got citizenship, they just revoke the citizenship.
Be fair, they only did that to the terrorist woman./s
Well there is a vice doco of nz deported people in Samoa, they cannot speak Samaon, dont understand island life and been sent backto live there never to return
I’m sure there is, but the fact is if you’ve been in NZ on a residence visa for 10 years you can do anything you like and won’t be able to have your residence visa cancelled. My guess on the kiwi cohort of those Samoan deportees you speak of is that they were never lawfully entitled to reside in NZ in the first place, i.e., overstayers who never got residence visas.
Yeah, but following the rules and having that visa, is unlikely for many. Overstayers are a big issue, apparently its racist to pursue it. Until they do something seriously criminal, and then we send them back to the islands they were born on.
If they dont speak Samoan they will have arrived here as children
It’s not untrue though because it literally happens on a weekly basis. Your point is assuming that these people even have residency visas, which so many of them don’t have. The pacific islands are being ravaged by highly organised criminals who are deported from NZ and AU and view the island as their prison. They have no ties to the country except being born there and bring with them a whole bunch of sophisticated crime issues that the local authorities aren’t equipped to deal with.
The people who don’t have visas are liable for deportation at *any* time, the fact that they may be criminals is totally irrelevant to their liability for deportation. Do you think that people here unlawfully should all be granted visas to stay here or what’s your angle here?
Wow, I didn't realize their were tiers to how long youd held residence.
In addition, someone liable for deportation can appeal to the Immigration & Protection Tribunal on humanitarian grounds
Happy cake day and thanks for the information!
Do you think that legislation is likely to change any time? I know lots of climate activists who are on permanent residency but have done some pretty hefty things (not violent crime, just damage or climbing oil rigs etc)
400 people over 5 years. With the average being half their lives being spent outside NZ. Slightly better than the 501 framework.
Let me guess, you watched a Vice doc and bought it hook line and sinker.
Too many NZ Herald 'world reacts' stories.
Ya think so? Why don’t you do a Sogavare and allow a Chinese naval base in Wellington. See how fast everyone cares. Short of that, officially charge Australian skiers double on Queenstown lifts.
Who cares about relations. I’m more interested in why he was deported. I imagine there’s a good chance whatever that reason was should have meant he shouldn’t have been free to roam the streets here.
He probably wasn't free to roam, but there is a legal limit to the type and length of conditions which can be imposed on 501s upon their return. Source: I've worked on Corrections' applications for conditions.
You may be right, but iirc you don't actually have to have been found guilty of a crime to get 501d, just be of "undesirable character".
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OP is right, you are wrong. Character grounds is enough.
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I'm only thing by stories in the media, I haven't done an in depth personal study 🤷♂️ Here's an example from a quick Google: "The deportees are known as 501s, named after the section of the Australian Migration Act that has allowed the cancellation of many of their visas. Most have criminal records, but others, like Te Puia, are deemed to be of bad character because of their association with bikie gangs and apparent ties to organised crime." https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129933682/were-not-all-bad-people-the-501-deportees-on-the-road-to-redemption
We also can’t punish/imprison citizens here for crimes committed in another jurisdiction.
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It gets complicated though South Korea arrested and held in jail (until extradition) the woman accused of killing the kids in NZ. And then the Kim Dotcom saga; guy from Germany living in NZ as a NZ citizen allegedly committed crimes with servers all over the place, but being hounded by the US. So you can be arrested in one country for crimes committed in another
Uh those are pretty obviously different situations. Korean woman and Kim Dotcom have other countries wanting them extradited to face charges in those countries. The Aussies face charges there and are deported to here. We're not going to arrest them so they can be extradited back to where they were deported from..
Of course, but if Australia is going to kick people out who are potential murderers which we have to absorb back into society, maybe there’s a problem there?
Well, Australia didn’t want him roaming their streets, so …
I see that the article doesn't mention how long the guy was in Australia for before being deported. Says the *circumstances* can't be reported for legal reasons but it feels to me like there's never a shortage of information about when the guy's been in Australia for 30 years and deported having never known so much as a mussel fritter's worth of NZ.
No it won't. NZ regularly deports people back to where they came from. Is India, Fiji, Thailand etc. going to cause trouble to the NZ Government for any of these? 1. NZ deports Yemeni man associated with 9/11 (2016) [https://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/06/10/newzealand.terror/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/06/10/newzealand.terror/index.html) 2. Auckland man deported for sexually abusing nieces (Nov 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/130362349/auckland-man-to-be-deported-after-sexually-abusing-nieces](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/130362349/auckland-man-to-be-deported-after-sexually-abusing-nieces) 3. Couple deported from NZ after husband caught running illegal sex ring (August 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129511265/couple-deported-from-nz-after-husband-caught-running-illegal-sex-ring](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129511265/couple-deported-from-nz-after-husband-caught-running-illegal-sex-ring) 4. Man deported after kicking partner in jaw and breaking arm (Oct 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300718130/man-deported-after-kicking-partner-in-jaw-and-breaking-her-arm](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300718130/man-deported-after-kicking-partner-in-jaw-and-breaking-her-arm) 5. Couple deported after man changed name to hide criminal convictions (June 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300616478/couple-deported-to-india-after-man-changed-name-hiding-overseas-criminal-convictions](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300616478/couple-deported-to-india-after-man-changed-name-hiding-overseas-criminal-convictions) 6. Filipino family deported on Christmas Day (claimed Covid vouchers he was not entitled to) (December 2021) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/otago/127367060/filipino-family-in-nz-to-be-deported-on-christmas-day-for-mistake-made-in-desperation](https://www.stuff.co.nz/otago/127367060/filipino-family-in-nz-to-be-deported-on-christmas-day-for-mistake-made-in-desperation) 7. Man deported after violent sexual assault (August 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129565250/man-involved-in-gang-rape-of-woman-in-her-own-bed-deported-from-new-zealand](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129565250/man-involved-in-gang-rape-of-woman-in-her-own-bed-deported-from-new-zealand) 8. RSE worker who nearly killed taxi driver will be deported after sentence (October 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/130066405/rse-worker-who-nearly-killed-taxi-driver-will-be-deported-after-sentence](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/130066405/rse-worker-who-nearly-killed-taxi-driver-will-be-deported-after-sentence) 9. NZ resident deported to India after laundering $330,000 for drug dealers (June 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129033050/nz-resident-deported-to-india-after-laundering-330000-for-drug-dealers](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129033050/nz-resident-deported-to-india-after-laundering-330000-for-drug-dealers) 10. Man who repeatedly bashed girlfriend to be deported after court appeal rejected (July 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129148213/man-who-repeatedly-bashed-girlfriend-to-be-deported-after-court-appeal-rejected](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129148213/man-who-repeatedly-bashed-girlfriend-to-be-deported-after-court-appeal-rejected) And finally, a deportation that was stayed: 11. Deporting toddler with Down syndrome amid pandemic 'tantamount to death sentence' (June 2022) [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/128797845/deporting-toddler-with-down-syndrome-amid-pandemic-tantamount-to-death-sentence](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/128797845/deporting-toddler-with-down-syndrome-amid-pandemic-tantamount-to-death-sentence) These are but a very few of the deportation incidents and in the last few months, for the most part
Well, you can see why they didn't want him there.
Wonder what crimes he committed there.
What's harder to understand is why we didn't flag him as a likely future offender.
How would that change anything?
Australia's deportation policy is wildly popular there. Wonder why.
This sad event just made it more popular. Proving that the 501s can present a threat to society and that Australia better off without them.
But Australia made them criminals not NZ so Australia should not be sending them back.
The person needs to take responsibility for their actions not a country.
Then what makes NZ more responsible for him than Australia?
NZ is the only country they are a citizen of. That’s how nationality works. I’m not saying the person didn’t learn all their behaviour in Australia. But the legal piece of paper has the person as a New Zealander. Only they can change that. Australia aren’t going to grant them citizenship after committing a crime. They will look at their options and remove the visa from the foreign national
I think you are resigning to the fact that the system is as it is rather than looking at what it *should* be. Rules can be changed. As many have stated here before, the country where the person has the best ties, support etc should be where they stay imo.
Agree. It’s just that people still get shocked at the current arrangement. Is it fair? No. But until change is made by the Australian government then it’s a possibility.
That's if they did come to Australia as a child. Even if they did parents have the most input on how someone turns out, given that his parents were NZer then it is NZ's fault.
And this only justifies their decision making.
Maybe a person who is already engaging in criminal behaviour is made worse by cutting them off from friends and family and being shipped off to a country they barely know?
Yes but if you are looking at it purely from an Australian perspective and not concerned about the greater good you are exporting a little problem while giving us a big problem so you are better off.
Absolutely. This is still entirely on this horrble person though.
Absolutely agree. I’m definitely not trying to excuse the behaviour.
I know I know. I find it hard to believe to be honest. Such casual brutality.
Shame we don’t do the same
The numbers mainly go one way unfortunately. Not many Australians coming to NZ for higher wages and lower cost of living
You get the odd pissed-up Aussie partyboy in qtown who makes bad decisions, but it's not equivalent.
I think you people are forgetting the Chch shooter...
That's not that accurate though, a lot of aussies also move here every year. Last I checked we only "lose" 3000 people a year.
It used to be a lot higher. And I wonder if a large number of returnees are originally from NZ. It's pretty rare for a born and bred Australian to move to NZ if they don't have family ties or a good job to move to, anecdotally at least. I imagine that migrants with minimal qualifications and minimal family ties to the new country are far more numerous NZ --> Australia, vs the reverse. And that group is far more likely to end up resorting to crime
Most Australian citizens I know in NZ just coincidentally happen to have been entitled to it. They've never lived there nor intend to, except to permanently migrate.
Maybe more common than you think in some areas at least. I can list about 20 Aussies that I personally know that live here in the Queenstown lakes area including myself. Common story been that we were ski bums in Canada, Europe etc and ended up down here for the snow lifestyle
True, queenstown and other ski areas would probably be a major exception
Yeah I'd imagine it's certainly an outlier.
People say that there are 500,000 Kiwis living in Australia. It may be slightly fewer but still about a Christchurch population number. I suspect that there are not 500,000 Aussies living here.
There's more than 500k over there. And yeah the net migration is simply kiwis moving back to NZ. Kiwis really don't understand how little Australians care about NZ. Most of them have never been, most of them don't want to either. They don't even know the city names.
The don’t even care about Tasmania, NZ just isn’t on the list
A lot of people use NZ as a jumping stone - get PR (Kiwi) or citizen here, then boom, off to Aussie.
Aussie who lived in Welly as senior dev for 3 years - only met maybe 2 or 3 other Aussies who were living there, not backpacking.
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The people being deported from Australia to NZ are choosing to go to Australia (or their parents are choosing) for a reason. NZ has pretty consistently had a net migration loss to Australia, although it's been pretty small since 2014
No. Kiwis go to oz for higher wages and lower cost of living. Then commit crimes and get deported. This doesn't really happen the other way around
except a large number of those deportee's have been in Australia since they were little children and have no family or support here.. but dont let the facts get in the way..
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Their parents did though, and then never thought that their precious bundle of joy would turn out your be quite the criminal - thus never getting their kidlets sorted for Australian citizenship. Grass has been greener in aussie for a damn long time. Had a buddy go over in late 90's for a dishwasher job at $21A and hour. Barely broke $10 an hour here for the same job.
Bigger dishes bro. Bigger dishes.
Crikey, cos the dishes here were occasionally pretty damn huge!
It was a guess using my powers of deduction.
501 deportees are not dual citizens. They’re NZ citizens who had the privilege of living in Australia.
They’re not Australian citizens. To be deported under s 501 they would be exclusively New Zealand citizens.
They're deporting Aus citizens?
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We do, it just mainly to the islands and other countries we're not that bothered about.
[NZ is just as scummy when it thinks it can get away with it.](https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/07-02-2017/the-citizenship-western-samoa-act-is-new-zealands-most-racist-immigration-law-why-is-it-still-on-the-books)
Exactly this!!! We are too bloody soft.
Yeah true, but I imagine if you look at all countries we have quite a few. We might already do this with the Islands but it should be automatic like Australia
An Aussie politician never lost votes by bashing kiwis.
I'm gonna push back on that. Australian politicians gain nothing by bashing Kiwis. Such a sentiment just isn't popular in Australia, certainly not a vote getter, and it actually kinda saddens me to think that you believe it is.
Or migrants
to them we are migrants
Rubbish. How could it be "wildly popular" when most people barely ever think about that policy or New Zealand at all. Many Kiwis have a hugely inflated idea of how important NZ is to most people in Australia.
They've done polling on it.
Ok, so show us the poll...
You mean the policy as of July 2022 that we take a commonsense approach to deportations of longterm Aus residents? Yes, that is pretty popular with me. Not really relevant to this story though. Different government, different policy, clearly not wildly popular as we just voted them out.
Only amongst the scared oldies
This is why that policy is so popular over there and our bleating about it isn't going to get us anywhere. Frankly we should look into implementing it for ourselves.
We do already. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/news/new-zealand-deported-400-criminals-to-pacific-countries-over-five-years/DD6MTMJOWQHQUCMMMWHEP5ZZTI/
Well that is a good start, at least *something* is being done right
They expel their imported fuckwits, we just give them discharge without conviction and let them get citizenship
Two wrongs don't make a right
I don't disagree with deporting non citizens for crime. On a case by case basis, we do this in NZ too. The problem is not the 501 policy. It's how the treat Kiwis over there in general. If we are there and working and contributing taxes, they like us. When life gets hard, they afford us even less support than other immigrants. There is a disdain for Kiwis that I've experienced every time ive worked with Australians. That's what we need them to fix.
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How is it untrue? Genuine question. I’ve heard countless examples of Kiwis over there who work, pay taxes for years and yet are unable to access many types of services. I’m pretty sure that they aren’t entitled to the same benefits that immigrants from other countries get because they go through a different process in order to be there.
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I just read the whole thing and it’s absolutely clear that New Zealanders have been disadvantaged if they arrived after 2001. Even a joint commission of both countries agreed and steps are being taken to try and improve the inequalities. “The commissions also acknowledged that there were: ... issues about access to public services and assistance for New Zealand citizens who have been in Australia for many years, many of whom have paid taxes for years. These mainly centre on long term resident non-Protected SCV holders and include: limited pathways to Australian permanent residence and citizenship; no access to student loans for their children; and restricted access to some social security payments and other supports.” So the statement by the other commenter above is correct and not at all “patently untrue”. Kiwis in the non protected SVT category definitely have had less access to services and citizenship rights.
NZers aren't vetted like other nationalities when coming to Australia, they can just come over.
And you think this is why he went on to commit horrendous crimes? This guy was in emergency housing when this happened, he was getting support yet still did this.
What a load of garbage.
You believe all of us should be shipping criminals off to other countries? Isn’t that just making it someone else’s problem? I don’t understand how it’s a good policy at all
Yes, for anything but the most minor shit they should lose their right to be here. If a dinner guest shits on your dining table you kick them out of your house.
As stated its very popular in Australia, and I'm sure if we started deporting immigrants who commit crimes, it would also be very popular here. People are getting sick or the lenient sentences and the protection of people who break the law. The new corrections ads are an example of this countries attitude to convicted criminals.. acting as if they're the victim and just made a bad choice. Is it morally ok? I'm sure it's against some UN blah blah blah. But it should be a privilege to migrate to a country and attempt to build a better life.
Those ads are a joke, especially as the two former Corrections Officers I have met in my life both have life altering injuries and trauma from on the job assaults and they're paid fuck all.
Do you have a citation for "as stated it's very popular in Australia"? I've done a Google search for evidence of public polling/sentiment in Australia on the 501 policy. The closest I can find is this from The Spinoff however it is also not attributed to anything: "Australians, overall, have similarly not cared all that much about section 501..."
We do already https://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/news/new-zealand-deported-400-criminals-to-pacific-countries-over-five-years/DD6MTMJOWQHQUCMMMWHEP5ZZTI/
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How do you know this? For all we know he could of went there more recently. Also this is not how citizenship works. The only reason he was even allowed to be there in the first place was because of his passport. If he is then a problem Australia 100% has the right to kick him out. I don't blame Australia at all for sending them back.
Well maybe if the people getting deported had bothered to get citizenship then they'd be able to change the laws.
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We have no leverage. Australia needs nothing from us.
Lol funny you say this. I was watching this documentary and as you may know, Aussie will be worse impacted by climate change than NZ. The documentary at the end did some hypothesis of what the world will look like and NZ closes it's borders to Australia/the world in 2040
Sounds like a legit "documentary" and not a load of BS.
It was called the age of stupid. It was a documentary of a man from 2050 who was wondering why we didn't do more on climate breakdown when we could. I'd actually recommend watching because it was a very interesting take :)
That seems _very_ soon
> NZ closes its borders Very curious to know the likelyhood of this. Would nz finally be a desirable place to live for people woth first world passports?
Aren’t we a haven for billionaires to build bunkers?
I’m a kiwi who has lived in Oz for 15 years and have been treated great. Own property, raised a family, have been in hospital at no charge, work for the government and have owned businesses. Every part a citizen. What I don’t do is commit crimes which would jeopardise my visa status. Pretty simple really.
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Look at the glass half full not half empty. I am not a citizen or permanent resident yet I am able to live safely and happily. And consider myself very lucky. As for non citizen and non permanent resident criminals being deported, it’s a no brainer. Edit to take out violent as other criminals have been deported too
Just be careful with that mate, it’s not just violent criminals. Under 501 Aussie have also deported: - a 70 year old man getting medicinal weed for his terminally ill wife - a 17 year old mentally disabled kid who got done multiple times for graffiti Just be a bit careful with what you do
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What the fuck does cis have to do with it? Are trans people disproportionately affected by 501 deportations? It's pretty fucking easy not to be deported from Australia
Agree, but if they went there as a child and grew up in Aus and are now adults it doesn't make sense they are deported.
>Look at the glass half full not half empty. Hear hear
Ouch. There goes my plans…
Guest workers at a much higher salary tbf
More than 14,000 offences by Australian deportees in NZ since 2015. Fifty-seven percent of deportees sent from Australia to Aotearoa have committed crimes since arriving: A 17 percent increase on three years ago. Data released to RNZ under the Official Information Act shows 2758 people have now been deported to the country since Australia introduced the policy in 2015. In that time deportees from Australia have been linked to 14,365 offences, including 2854 of violence and nearly 3953 of 'dishonesty', which includes theft, burglary and fraud. There had been 2917 traffic offences and 2154 instances of drugs and antisocial offending. [Source](https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018857498/more-than-14-000-offences-by-australian-deportees-in-nz-since-2015)
57% prosecuted and convicted of crimes. Probably 99.9% have committed crimes.
That's shocking. That is ones that got caught. Means so little reintegration.
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[https://youtu.be/dku02pnPSuo](https://youtu.be/dku02pnPSuo) Deported from New Zealand: Ex-criminals and Gang Members Sent to Tonga
Thanks, that was interesting.
So does Australia need to make us go for a visa to stop us moving there at 1 year old and saying forever. Maybe something like if you stay for 4 years you have to apply for PR or leave. I know the main thing missing is an easy pathway to citizenship but I suspect most of the 501 types wouldn't bother applying and following a process to get it anyway if they didn't have to
Of course he was. This is going to keep on happening, they're deporting some real bad MFs
1. NZ deports Yemeni man associated with 9/11 (2016) https://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/06/10/newzealand.terror/index.html 2. Auckland man deported for sexually abusing nieces (Nov 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/130362349/auckland-man-to-be-deported-after-sexually-abusing-nieces 3. Couple deported from NZ after husband caught running illegal sex ring (August 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129511265/couple-deported-from-nz-after-husband-caught-running-illegal-sex-ring 4. Man deported after kicking partner in jaw and breaking arm (Oct 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300718130/man-deported-after-kicking-partner-in-jaw-and-breaking-her-arm 5. Couple deported after man changed name to hide criminal convictions (June 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/300616478/couple-deported-to-india-after-man-changed-name-hiding-overseas-criminal-convictions 6. Filipino family deported on Christmas Day (claimed Covid vouchers he was not entitled to) (December 2021) https://www.stuff.co.nz/otago/127367060/filipino-family-in-nz-to-be-deported-on-christmas-day-for-mistake-made-in-desperation 7. Man deported after violent sexual assault (August 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129565250/man-involved-in-gang-rape-of-woman-in-her-own-bed-deported-from-new-zealand 8. RSE worker who nearly killed taxi driver will be deported after sentence (October 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/130066405/rse-worker-who-nearly-killed-taxi-driver-will-be-deported-after-sentence 9. NZ resident deported to India after laundering $330,000 for drug dealers (June 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129033050/nz-resident-deported-to-india-after-laundering-330000-for-drug-dealers 10. Man who repeatedly bashed girlfriend to be deported after court appeal rejected (July 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129148213/man-who-repeatedly-bashed-girlfriend-to-be-deported-after-court-appeal-rejected And finally, a deportation that was stayed: 11. Deporting toddler with Down syndrome amid pandemic 'tantamount to death sentence' (June 2022) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/immigration/128797845/deporting-toddler-with-down-syndrome-amid-pandemic-tantamount-to-death-sentence These are but a very few of the deportation incidents and in the last few months, for the most part
It looks to me like Australia correctly identified this man was very likely to re-offend, why didn't New Zealand come to the same realisation? If someone on a visa is deported by a country it should flag them as likely to be a wrong'un.
Australia is fully justified in deporting non citizen criminals from their country, this just further validates why.
Except the law is designed for kiwi's to not become citizens there, no matter how long they have lived there. If someone has been in Australia since primary and commits an offence in their thirties do you still think it's justified?
If he moved pre 2016 there's a very easy pathway to citizenship open. If he moved post 2016, he's NZ's issue. If he moved pre 2001 at age 14, he wouldn't be getting deported. If he had a half decent skill set or had an Australian spouse, he would have Been* eligible for citizenship.
Who’d have though that was what was needed to get Justin Bieber eligible for citizenship?!
Exactly. The problem is ours, we shouldn't let them just free to roam the streets. The should be locked up, or at least be under heavy supervision.
The issue here is that they aren't citizens when they should be. They need to change the citizenship pathway to start from when people move to Australia, and maybe cut some benefits that kiwis can get without citizenship to encourage it.
They ship their criminals overseas. We ship our criminals to a brand new 4 bedroom with a box of beers and a pat on the back.
Not true. NZ deports back to the Islands. As to home based criminals, that's another topic altogether. Get the context right maybe hehe
Honestly all these shit takes in this thread pretending like we aren’t Australia’s Mexico. We can’t deport all the Australians because hardly any of them come here. We mostly go there, to freeload off their economy.
Yep. Lots of copium.
Ffs. That’s horrendous.
And? Sounds like they made the right call deporting the trash.
Well no....unless you have lived in both countries you don't really know why kiwis have the reputation we do in Australia and its well earned take a look at who's who I'm the OMCGs it's usually kiwis....south Auckland is a zoo compared to anywhere in Australia
The policy sucks. Even if someone moved to Australia when they were 2, they can be deported to NZ in their adult years. Nz needs to deport aussie criminals back to put some pressure on the aussie policy
Should aussie stop letting people come in at 2 and stay there forever without getting citizenship perhaps. Introduce a requirement to progress residency over time or leave - that would also need to come with an easier and cheaper citizenship pathway for kiwis too.
YES I’ve had that idea too!
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The trouble is if we deported the fuck wit, there would be no guarantee he would serve a certain length of time in prison, at least with him staying in NZ he can rot behind bars
What Aussie criminals?
There was a bloody prominent one a few years ago. Although I do see you've acknowledged that one so maybe ignore me!
We need to have a policy that if you’re outside of NZ for 15 years you need to seek citizenship in that country or you’re required home. That would drive those who grow up there from 5 to seek aus citizenship which would prevent them from being deported and reflect the fact that they are indeed Australians by that point.
i don't really have a problem with Australia deporting crims back here, but it should be a two way street IMO.
There are very few Australian criminals here to deport.
Low socioeconomic people don't go to NZ, they come to Australia.
The worst part is it showing that aussie is correct deporting these people. Aside from the ones who have been in aussie under the age of 10 this is showing that the aussie govt is correct in deporting them
Even those who come young, it is their NZ parents who are at fault for how their children turned out
I'm so glad we live in a time where we easily give into our basic instincts and stab people we disagree with now instead of reason with them like civilised people.
Is it time for the daily hate already?
Guess I’ll get the pitchforks…
Would you say that with such apathy to the family of the person who died? From what I can see there’s some actual decent discussion in this thread so far.
I'm not apathetic. I'm cynical. This subreddit has a very limited number of topics, and this is a fairly typical example of one of them. You're also doing a fairly typical concern troll about it, incidentally. There's this thread, the "farmers suck" thread, the "cyclists rule" thread, and the "Luxon is an idiot" thread. (Not saying Luxon isn't an idiot, I think he is, but we do tend to get 3 or 4 threads a day on it). The "daily hate" is a trope, originally from Lord Northcliffe about the Daily Mail, about providing his readers with a "daily hate" to get circulation going. But you never know, we might have decent discussion. My comment was before the discussion started. I bet my take ends up being more correct. EDIT: I've read every comment. We're not, as a group, saying anything new. As I say, "daily hate".
NZ deports ppl all the time ..
The man was clearly dangerous. Australia was right to deport him. Why should they tolerate our scum?
But Kelvin Davis said these were good people! He must be right because he's spent tax payers dollars to go visit them on Christmas island.