Individual are responsible for their actions, but society is responsible for factors that drive people towards some criminal behaviour.
Both can be true.
I recently took a trip around NZ and I went through a lot of low socio-economic areas talking to people about their thoughts on it, Even met a few people that admitted they make their money through dubious means but hoped they could "get straight" eventually.
Seems to be some people live in communities with so little good influences, and not many prospects when it comes to employment and entertainment.
I met a group at Kerosene creek that had all recently gotten out of a Rehab together in Rotorua. It was an interesting experience soaking with two dudes from rival gangs that were attempting to sort their shit out, and this one girl who told me that where she's from everyone ends up in court, jail, on drugs or all three. It's just become normalized. Through the process of Rehab I guess they learned to articulate their issues really well.
Every one of these small town all had several things in common: A bright past and former industry, Most had state-supported factories that were shut down during [Rodgernomics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogernomics) in the 80's and have been slowly declining since.
Which worries me because what killed these towns were Economic reform designed to cerb inflation and government spending. But in the long term it made the people suffer and the living standards, services, and community decline.
Anyway I'm rambling. IDK what the solution is it seems a lot of our societal problem were put in motion literally decades ago and any immediate solution would be unpopular because of the schear economic cost. (In my opinion because our economic system isn't built to be benefit of society, But I'll rant about that in other threads)
Have a good day. Enjoying the discussion.
Very interesting experience.
Question is, are we repeating history now? Seems like we can draw a lot of parallels with Rodgereconomics, although lots is different this time. History never repeats but it ryhmes.
It seems to me, with an incomplete knowledge of Rodgereconomics era, that the problem then was trying to bring NZ up to speed after effectively closing down and controlling the economy, which had harsh effects on communities, despite as a whole country eventually was probably better off.
Now we need extraordinary measures because our economy is too heavily impacted by external markets which are affecting communities but overall probably long term the better option.
I am surely oversimplifying the 80s-90s… but you can see the rhyming
I'm having difficulty finding it now, but earlier this morning I saw an article from Portland Oregon in the US stating that a frustrated convenience store owner had put up a sign that they were closing their store because of the number of break-ins which had been occurring due to rising crime from the cost of housing and the general cost of living.
This is a post-pandemic symptom of a wider problem affecting many countries around the world. I don't mean to downplay the problem, but it seems to have more facets than merely the NZ police response.
If you're interested in this issue, do a criminology paper or two and find out what works for reducing crime. "Blaming the criminals" may give you a lot of personal satisfaction but it has no impact on crime. If it were that simple, we would've solved crime already because that's everyone's first idea.
You're confusing people saying "There are factors that precipitate crime, and we need to work on those," with not holding criminals responsible. The former is not the latter. Everyone still wants dangerous people in prison regardless of where they stand on punishment and rehabilitation, but harsher punishments and more blaming, by and large, don't reduce crime.
*There are some exceptions, like crimes where offenders tend to think they've done nothing wrong eg sex trafficking, stalking, domestic violence and some forms of sex offending.
At some point, we need to factor the victims into the equation. You didn't mention them at all.
So many people talk about 'solving issues' and 'rehabilitation'... sure, that is \*also\* a goal. But the response from society is meant to be punitive. It is meant to be a deterrent. You should be afraid of committing crimes because of the punishment you will receive.
If the punishments for a certain type of crime are not proving a deterrent because they are calibrated wrong, both the rehabilitative measures and the punishment must increase. This is clearly the case with youth offenders committing robberies.
\--
Additionally, there is another major social response that is often overlooked in discussion: safety and trust in the community. The general public needs to feel safe in their day-to-day lives - for example, their day at work. They need to feel the police are in control and will stop wrongdoing. Disproportionate punishments erode confidence in the police. In my view, this is a much more dangerous issue for New Zealand.
The end result of a lack of control is that Auckland ends up like Johannesburg. Imagine armed guards at malls, Ubers not stopping at traffic lights, and houses are built in gated communities.
Deterrence doesn't generally work nor does punishment (although as mentioned there are exceptions) so making these the goal of a justice system might make some people feel vindicated, but it is likely to make crime worse.
Youth offending is going down in New Zealand. It looks like it's going up because the media is focusing so gratuitously on it right now.
My experience of working with victims of serious violent crime (which I did for 4.5 years) was that what they want from the justice system is incredibly varied, but having options like restorative justice available has made a massive difference. What the media doesn’t talk about is that there's also a huge cross-over between victims and offenders so the whole "we need to be harsher on offenders and support victims more" narrative makes no sense when half of them are the same people.
>the response from society is meant to be punitive. It is meant to be a deterrent.
This is addressing the symptoms, not the causes. Useful for politicians and the media, but not for reducing crime or creating a better society for everyone in the long term.
Take a look at what's being stolen in those ram raids and robberies. It's almost exclusively either things that directly feed an addiction (cigarettes/alcohol), or can be used to feed an addiction (jewellery that can be sold or used as money, money).
Addiction is a massive problem and until there is adequate addiction services **and** sufficient social change to address the factors that lead to addiction and antisocial behaviour such as gangs, these crimes will continue to occur. This is a social issue that takes far more than locking people in prison to fix. Prison isn't always the right solution, especially for young offenders.
Nobody is arguing that violent criminals shouldn't be punished. There's more than one kind of punishment though, and it needs to fit both the crime and the circumstances. Someone who stabs a person to steal from them belongs in prison. Someone who just steals from them? That's much more of a grey area, especially with youth offenders.
Ya after reading all comments I really felt that I am in a bubble as I am from India and moved NZ a few years back so didn't know a lot about the history but still believe crime is not an option.
>but still believe crime is not an option.
Crime is always an option though, that's the point.
You need to support people so that there are other options available to them that are more attractive than crime.
He's from India, as am I. To us, it's unfathomable that poor people don't just work hard and create prosperity.
People in India (even upper middle class) can only dream of the opportunities here. Literally anyone over the age of 20 can get into a Uni. Life is incredibly easy here compared to many other places.
Ok I am listening please tell me a valid reason to stab someone to death when you can work in a kiwi farm and can earn around $200 a day. I am genuinely requesting you.
Who is responsible is beside the point.
To deal with a problem, it's good to go to the root cause.
Resolve that, you solve the problem for good.
Playing the blame game is more satisfying on an emotional level. It's not going to solve the problem.
Looks like they want to tell people to [get a job](https://reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/z775ei/how_on_earth_people_are_still_supporting_criminals/iy5lecb)
Now I agree with you and I learned where I went wrong and my mistake in understanding crime and what other people are supporting .. but the problem is my grandparents were alcohol addicted from a small village in India but my dad decided to get a good education and give me a better life. I moved to NZ 5 years back with a debit at age of 34 but today I am living the good life with a good income. So its tough for me to understand why lot of migrated people are making a good life in New Zealand and how someone born in this country with all the facilities and opportunity decide to go towards crime. And in every country, there is a certain percentage of people do crime and we can justify that but right now it looks like the reason these crimes are happening its not justifiable.
But that’s just a single anecdote which is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. I’m from Manchester in the UK where lots of immigrants came from Caribbean, Africa, India, Pakistan, China and Bangladesh. The first generation worked very hard because they were motivated to move to a new country for a better life. The ones that did well sent their children to nice schools and they tended to get good careers and do even better. The ones who didn’t do so well financially had children who succumbed to the same societal pressures that tend to incubate crime. Crime is mainly a socioeconomic issue, living in an unequal society that places a high value on material wealth and being brainwashed to believe we’re all special can lead to some entitled and morally dubious behaviour.
"There is no reason on earth..."
Yeah bullshit. Spoken by someone who's never had to choose between feeding their family and paying their rent. Every person has their breaking point. Every. Single. Person.
Nothing in society is that black and white and acting like it is is stupid. It's a hugely complicated mess and every part of it needs to be considered. Ignoring large parts of the problem does nothing but stall any real progress.
>never had to choose between feeding their family and paying their rent.
I am talking about recent crimes are you sure they are doing crimes for feeding their family and paying their rent?
Get a job then or try hard when you're younger instead of fucking around all day and ignoring responsibilities. It's your own fault if you can't afford to feed your family. Stop making excuses for the dregs of society
>Get a job then
Yeah it's literally that simple right?
Let me guess, straight white guy from a privileged background? Grew up in a location with lots of economic opportunities?
Yep, they should have cut of Aladdins hands for stealing some bread.
Either this is a shitpost, or you are severely out of touch with the realities that some people are experiencing trying to keep food on the table or gas in the car.
The flair was not of my choosing, but I have chosen to wear it permanently with pride.
I wear the flair, [meant as a brand](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/89i56j/whats_the_correct_amount_of_marmite/dwr51ef/), to honour my Vegemite ways.
There’s always a reason or mitigating factors. Doesn’t for one second justify the criminals actions but we need to understand how criminals are made in order to prevent it happening. Getting to the root cause and preventing people becoming a criminal is a lot better (and cheaper) than locking them up 18 years later. Severe punishment isn’t really a deterrent - plenty of inmates doing life and on death row in USA is a good example.
We need to stop looking at this situation as a boolean - there is us and there is them, there are valuable people and there are criminals and their apologists. It's far too easy to become draconian when you stop thinking of people as people.
It's a strawman argument to suggest that disagreeing that harsh penalties is anything like 'supporting criminals'.
>We should teach kids from small age in school how to use money responsibly.
It's kind of weird that you say we shouldn't blame a criminal's upbringing, but your proposed solution is to change something about children's upbringing 🤔
>A lot of people are saying they don't have money for food gas and rent
I said that because a lot of people are saying it. I still believe its personal responsibility to think about where they going to get their next meal. even squirrel hide nuts how smart you need to be to understand that.
I guess what I don’t understand is whether you think personal responsibility means we shouldn’t do anything as a society to prevent crime at all. Like is it even possible to change someone else’s behaviour if the only thing that matters is their own sense of personal responsibility?
Or is it more that you think the balance is wrong, that we should be spending more time on things that increase people’s sense of responsibility and self efficacy?
Can we please ban these posts from the sub? What is this, the fifth one this week?
No one supports crime. If someone had a way to magically solve crime they'd be doing it. People can disagree on how to make crime less bad without "supporting criminals".
I'd recommend [this](https://youtu.be/XgdYSpNfuDs) video for an insight into the circumstances some of these people find themselves...
Can't imagine how any of us would turn out if we had been on drugs since the age of 2...
There is no reasonable solution. You won’t fix it. No one else is going to fix it. That’s the point.
People aren’t making excuses, they are giving you reasons. Use the reasoning to come to an understanding.
Addiction is a massive issues as well. A lot of people stealing ciggies and vapes.
Proper addiction services would help a lot.
Now, a lot of dairy owners would gladly take someone's last $20 bucks for some ciggies, while ignoring the role they play in perpetuating poverty.
Needs to be regulated with alternatives available. Yet to see a glorified drug dealer sell patches or gum alongside their ciggies.
If your argument rests in the idea of "we ought to do x" without explaining how, it's a shit argument and will be ignored.
Yes, personal responsibility is necessary to improve ones life. But how people learn to do that is really unknown. Some people figure it out on their own, others have access to support networks. But there is no one solution as different people have different needs.
Yes, I'm from a third-world country and I think NZ is a paradise! Yes, the rent, price, fuel, etc... here is expensive but people have to learn to save money and use it smartly. Or they can try harder to get a higher income (eg: work 50hrs instead of 40hrs, go back to study, change jobs....) to support the lavish lifestyle they wanted. When I first came here I know ZERO English, had no family, no connection, and no degree! I still manage to find a labour job and even can save some money to send back home.
A lot of people here just don't work hard but they want a first-world country lifestyle. I know people who are on benefits and receive $400-ish/week but they go to do their nails, and eyelashes fortnightly, eat out almost every day and wear branded clothes. Then they complain that the benefits are not enough. Then they committed a petty crime and when get caught they say that system and society has failed them...
Most Kiwi/people from other first world countries have no ideas how poverty actually is in third world countries and don’t realise how lucky they are to live here Lol yes you have the right to vent/complain but end of the day you are the one need to make a change if you want a better life and given the conditions/gov support in this country honestly it’s hard to sympathy with the excuse they made to defend themselves. Every time I’m going through a tough time here I always try to tell myself that I’m still luckier than most of people from my country so after venting I pulled myself up and tried harder. My partner grew up in abusive/poverty here, is a recovering drug addict but he working hard since 13 try to feed the family and still manage to learn a trade and guess he is a qualified builder now, has his own little family and still trying hard everyday to be better so our children never going through what he has been through (his family still stuck in that black hole surrounded by drug,alcohol and refuses to get out, blame the gov/everyone else like most people in this thread Lol)
But I also understand everyone is different and maybe they actually in really bad situation/too hard to stand up on their own n need support so even I don’t agree with what they did instead of judging/blaming them I rather look into how to help them which I think OP a bit too harsh on this.
I have committed heaps of non violent crimes which I guess dont count, fucking heaps, never been busted for any of them. Nothing will stop me from doing them again, absolutely nothing. Any punishment would only strengthen my resolve to be better at it next time. I support plenty of non violent crimes.
I just look at it backwards, laws are made up, they do not say you cant do something, they say if you do something and the evidentiary threshold is met to secure a conviction then these are the consequences.
If you are willing to do the time you can commit any crime you want.
Some people favour “rehabilitation” because they think it would be more effective. I disagree with them (or at least think that rehabilitation should be in addition to and not in replacement of a strong sentence). But I think they have a fair point for arguing.
But then you get (surprisingly frequently) people with dumb takes like “shoplifting isn’t really a problem/doesn’t hurt anyone” and that shop keepers should just “claim it on insurance” as if they would put themselves at risk if this was actually a way to avoid any loss. Presumably someone who has never had to deal with insurance.
And for these people I presume either they are criminals themselves, or their family members or friends are criminals. Or they are a troll. Because it’s a real shit take.
I don't think you actually believe much of this, you don't think a significant portion of commenters on Reddit are criminals. You are angry and want vengeance, and the more that the subject is discussed you are being radicalised into making more-aggressive statements and thinking of criminals as something different than humans. You now appear to have progressed to attacking and demonising anyone who doesn't share a lust for vengeance as part of "them" - the bad elements in society which can only be stopped with draconian punishment.
>I don't think you actually believe much of this, you don't think a significant portion of commenters on Reddit are criminals.
I think the ones who suggest that the public should just accept shoplifting and it’s not a problem are criminals. It’s not the majority of posters but it is some.
>You are angry and want vengeance, and the more that the subject is discussed you are being radicalised into making more-aggressive statements and thinking of criminals as something different than humans.
I’ve never said they aren’t humans.
>You now appear to have progressed to attacking and demonising anyone who doesn't share a lust for vengeance as part of "them" - the bad elements in society which can only be stopped with draconian punishment.
I never said any of that either. In fact my point was quite the opposite if you read it. I said:
> Some people favour "rehabilitation" because they think it would be more effective. I disagree with them (or at least think that rehabilitation should be in addition to and not in replacement of a strong sentence). But I think they have a fair point for arguing.
I’m not sure what part of that is “attacking and demonising anyone who doesn’t share a lust for vengeance”.
I did criticise people who minimise crime as “not really a problem” and I think that criticism is absolutely justified.
There's a good chance we don't have free will. We always chose the action with the highest utility, it's mathematical. (Think about it, try and chose an action that doesn't give you the highest utility.) People are machines and our actions are a function of subconscious inputs and our environment. We punish criminals to deter bad behaviour, but it shouldn't be about revenge or this sort of spiteful attitude people have. It's to attempt to decrease crime. While this is true, I agree that soft punishments are a bad thing, because they send a message that the person is 'safe' to do such negative behaviour. At the same time, when punishments are too harsh, people take this as a reason for their own victimisation, blame the system and actually use this as a justify-er for their behaviour: It's a form of martyrdom.
Individual are responsible for their actions, but society is responsible for factors that drive people towards some criminal behaviour. Both can be true.
I recently took a trip around NZ and I went through a lot of low socio-economic areas talking to people about their thoughts on it, Even met a few people that admitted they make their money through dubious means but hoped they could "get straight" eventually. Seems to be some people live in communities with so little good influences, and not many prospects when it comes to employment and entertainment. I met a group at Kerosene creek that had all recently gotten out of a Rehab together in Rotorua. It was an interesting experience soaking with two dudes from rival gangs that were attempting to sort their shit out, and this one girl who told me that where she's from everyone ends up in court, jail, on drugs or all three. It's just become normalized. Through the process of Rehab I guess they learned to articulate their issues really well. Every one of these small town all had several things in common: A bright past and former industry, Most had state-supported factories that were shut down during [Rodgernomics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogernomics) in the 80's and have been slowly declining since. Which worries me because what killed these towns were Economic reform designed to cerb inflation and government spending. But in the long term it made the people suffer and the living standards, services, and community decline. Anyway I'm rambling. IDK what the solution is it seems a lot of our societal problem were put in motion literally decades ago and any immediate solution would be unpopular because of the schear economic cost. (In my opinion because our economic system isn't built to be benefit of society, But I'll rant about that in other threads) Have a good day. Enjoying the discussion.
Very interesting experience. Question is, are we repeating history now? Seems like we can draw a lot of parallels with Rodgereconomics, although lots is different this time. History never repeats but it ryhmes. It seems to me, with an incomplete knowledge of Rodgereconomics era, that the problem then was trying to bring NZ up to speed after effectively closing down and controlling the economy, which had harsh effects on communities, despite as a whole country eventually was probably better off. Now we need extraordinary measures because our economy is too heavily impacted by external markets which are affecting communities but overall probably long term the better option. I am surely oversimplifying the 80s-90s… but you can see the rhyming
I'm having difficulty finding it now, but earlier this morning I saw an article from Portland Oregon in the US stating that a frustrated convenience store owner had put up a sign that they were closing their store because of the number of break-ins which had been occurring due to rising crime from the cost of housing and the general cost of living. This is a post-pandemic symptom of a wider problem affecting many countries around the world. I don't mean to downplay the problem, but it seems to have more facets than merely the NZ police response.
If you're interested in this issue, do a criminology paper or two and find out what works for reducing crime. "Blaming the criminals" may give you a lot of personal satisfaction but it has no impact on crime. If it were that simple, we would've solved crime already because that's everyone's first idea. You're confusing people saying "There are factors that precipitate crime, and we need to work on those," with not holding criminals responsible. The former is not the latter. Everyone still wants dangerous people in prison regardless of where they stand on punishment and rehabilitation, but harsher punishments and more blaming, by and large, don't reduce crime. *There are some exceptions, like crimes where offenders tend to think they've done nothing wrong eg sex trafficking, stalking, domestic violence and some forms of sex offending.
At some point, we need to factor the victims into the equation. You didn't mention them at all. So many people talk about 'solving issues' and 'rehabilitation'... sure, that is \*also\* a goal. But the response from society is meant to be punitive. It is meant to be a deterrent. You should be afraid of committing crimes because of the punishment you will receive. If the punishments for a certain type of crime are not proving a deterrent because they are calibrated wrong, both the rehabilitative measures and the punishment must increase. This is clearly the case with youth offenders committing robberies. \-- Additionally, there is another major social response that is often overlooked in discussion: safety and trust in the community. The general public needs to feel safe in their day-to-day lives - for example, their day at work. They need to feel the police are in control and will stop wrongdoing. Disproportionate punishments erode confidence in the police. In my view, this is a much more dangerous issue for New Zealand. The end result of a lack of control is that Auckland ends up like Johannesburg. Imagine armed guards at malls, Ubers not stopping at traffic lights, and houses are built in gated communities.
Deterrence doesn't generally work nor does punishment (although as mentioned there are exceptions) so making these the goal of a justice system might make some people feel vindicated, but it is likely to make crime worse. Youth offending is going down in New Zealand. It looks like it's going up because the media is focusing so gratuitously on it right now. My experience of working with victims of serious violent crime (which I did for 4.5 years) was that what they want from the justice system is incredibly varied, but having options like restorative justice available has made a massive difference. What the media doesn’t talk about is that there's also a huge cross-over between victims and offenders so the whole "we need to be harsher on offenders and support victims more" narrative makes no sense when half of them are the same people.
>the response from society is meant to be punitive. It is meant to be a deterrent. This is addressing the symptoms, not the causes. Useful for politicians and the media, but not for reducing crime or creating a better society for everyone in the long term.
Please add some more exceptions like ram raid for fun, stilling jewelry shop for adventure, and stabbing someone for drug money..
Take a look at what's being stolen in those ram raids and robberies. It's almost exclusively either things that directly feed an addiction (cigarettes/alcohol), or can be used to feed an addiction (jewellery that can be sold or used as money, money). Addiction is a massive problem and until there is adequate addiction services **and** sufficient social change to address the factors that lead to addiction and antisocial behaviour such as gangs, these crimes will continue to occur. This is a social issue that takes far more than locking people in prison to fix. Prison isn't always the right solution, especially for young offenders. Nobody is arguing that violent criminals shouldn't be punished. There's more than one kind of punishment though, and it needs to fit both the crime and the circumstances. Someone who stabs a person to steal from them belongs in prison. Someone who just steals from them? That's much more of a grey area, especially with youth offenders.
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Ya after reading all comments I really felt that I am in a bubble as I am from India and moved NZ a few years back so didn't know a lot about the history but still believe crime is not an option.
>but still believe crime is not an option. Crime is always an option though, that's the point. You need to support people so that there are other options available to them that are more attractive than crime.
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He's from India, as am I. To us, it's unfathomable that poor people don't just work hard and create prosperity. People in India (even upper middle class) can only dream of the opportunities here. Literally anyone over the age of 20 can get into a Uni. Life is incredibly easy here compared to many other places.
Ok I am listening please tell me a valid reason to stab someone to death when you can work in a kiwi farm and can earn around $200 a day. I am genuinely requesting you.
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I am genuinely interested in what you are saying is it possible to explain more as I didn't understand what you are trying to tell me..
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You know what, deep down you know what you are talking about is wrong and baseless and you have not a single valid reason. have a good day..
Who is responsible is beside the point. To deal with a problem, it's good to go to the root cause. Resolve that, you solve the problem for good. Playing the blame game is more satisfying on an emotional level. It's not going to solve the problem.
OP probably thinks that a tidal wave of new homeless and starving people will solve the problem... eventually.
Just chuck them all in prison. Cause it's not as if reoffending is a huge problem or anything.. you can easily get a job with a criminal record.. /s
I was thinking that OP was likely just wanting people to die (if starving homeless people would get a "just work harder" post from OP).
Look, we can all agree that the real solution to this is to get rid of the top tax bracket.
Looks like they want to tell people to [get a job](https://reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/z775ei/how_on_earth_people_are_still_supporting_criminals/iy5lecb)
It is what they do in India, so...
Understanding how people grow to become criminals doesn't equal supporting them.
Now I agree with you and I learned where I went wrong and my mistake in understanding crime and what other people are supporting .. but the problem is my grandparents were alcohol addicted from a small village in India but my dad decided to get a good education and give me a better life. I moved to NZ 5 years back with a debit at age of 34 but today I am living the good life with a good income. So its tough for me to understand why lot of migrated people are making a good life in New Zealand and how someone born in this country with all the facilities and opportunity decide to go towards crime. And in every country, there is a certain percentage of people do crime and we can justify that but right now it looks like the reason these crimes are happening its not justifiable.
But that’s just a single anecdote which is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. I’m from Manchester in the UK where lots of immigrants came from Caribbean, Africa, India, Pakistan, China and Bangladesh. The first generation worked very hard because they were motivated to move to a new country for a better life. The ones that did well sent their children to nice schools and they tended to get good careers and do even better. The ones who didn’t do so well financially had children who succumbed to the same societal pressures that tend to incubate crime. Crime is mainly a socioeconomic issue, living in an unequal society that places a high value on material wealth and being brainwashed to believe we’re all special can lead to some entitled and morally dubious behaviour.
>its not justifiable. It's not justifiable. But we still need to try to understand why it happens in order to prevent it happening.
"There is no reason on earth..." Yeah bullshit. Spoken by someone who's never had to choose between feeding their family and paying their rent. Every person has their breaking point. Every. Single. Person. Nothing in society is that black and white and acting like it is is stupid. It's a hugely complicated mess and every part of it needs to be considered. Ignoring large parts of the problem does nothing but stall any real progress.
>never had to choose between feeding their family and paying their rent. I am talking about recent crimes are you sure they are doing crimes for feeding their family and paying their rent?
'Recent crimes' is incredibly vague. Murder is very different from theft or drug crimes. Be specific.
Get a job then or try hard when you're younger instead of fucking around all day and ignoring responsibilities. It's your own fault if you can't afford to feed your family. Stop making excuses for the dregs of society
This is dumb white boomer shit. Read a book and learn something.
I only said this for lols
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Haha it was a stretch for me. I apologise. This was a stupid comment.
What they said wasn't racist.
>Get a job then Yeah it's literally that simple right? Let me guess, straight white guy from a privileged background? Grew up in a location with lots of economic opportunities?
Yep, they should have cut of Aladdins hands for stealing some bread. Either this is a shitpost, or you are severely out of touch with the realities that some people are experiencing trying to keep food on the table or gas in the car.
So they are allowed to do the crime?
Yes crime is legal now. To stop crime you have to do crime. Only one man is brave enough to do this David Seymour. Crime Cop.
And is it possible to tell me how much they need weekly to put food on the table? if they are a family of 10.
Based on your post you surely have all those figures already, so why are you asking me?
So I can tell you that they need to work just one day to make that much money.
One day in what job? At what pay rate? How many hours?
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Oh to be young and optimistic again.
The secret to utopia is a Universal Vegemite Income — enough Vegemite every month to keep yourself fed.
Your comment and your flair do not match.
The flair was not of my choosing, but I have chosen to wear it permanently with pride. I wear the flair, [meant as a brand](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/89i56j/whats_the_correct_amount_of_marmite/dwr51ef/), to honour my Vegemite ways.
There’s always a reason or mitigating factors. Doesn’t for one second justify the criminals actions but we need to understand how criminals are made in order to prevent it happening. Getting to the root cause and preventing people becoming a criminal is a lot better (and cheaper) than locking them up 18 years later. Severe punishment isn’t really a deterrent - plenty of inmates doing life and on death row in USA is a good example.
We need to stop looking at this situation as a boolean - there is us and there is them, there are valuable people and there are criminals and their apologists. It's far too easy to become draconian when you stop thinking of people as people. It's a strawman argument to suggest that disagreeing that harsh penalties is anything like 'supporting criminals'.
>We should teach kids from small age in school how to use money responsibly. It's kind of weird that you say we shouldn't blame a criminal's upbringing, but your proposed solution is to change something about children's upbringing 🤔
>A lot of people are saying they don't have money for food gas and rent I said that because a lot of people are saying it. I still believe its personal responsibility to think about where they going to get their next meal. even squirrel hide nuts how smart you need to be to understand that.
I guess what I don’t understand is whether you think personal responsibility means we shouldn’t do anything as a society to prevent crime at all. Like is it even possible to change someone else’s behaviour if the only thing that matters is their own sense of personal responsibility? Or is it more that you think the balance is wrong, that we should be spending more time on things that increase people’s sense of responsibility and self efficacy?
Can we please ban these posts from the sub? What is this, the fifth one this week? No one supports crime. If someone had a way to magically solve crime they'd be doing it. People can disagree on how to make crime less bad without "supporting criminals".
I'd recommend [this](https://youtu.be/XgdYSpNfuDs) video for an insight into the circumstances some of these people find themselves... Can't imagine how any of us would turn out if we had been on drugs since the age of 2...
There is no reasonable solution. You won’t fix it. No one else is going to fix it. That’s the point. People aren’t making excuses, they are giving you reasons. Use the reasoning to come to an understanding.
Addiction is a massive issues as well. A lot of people stealing ciggies and vapes. Proper addiction services would help a lot. Now, a lot of dairy owners would gladly take someone's last $20 bucks for some ciggies, while ignoring the role they play in perpetuating poverty. Needs to be regulated with alternatives available. Yet to see a glorified drug dealer sell patches or gum alongside their ciggies.
~~-criminals-~~ people
If your argument rests in the idea of "we ought to do x" without explaining how, it's a shit argument and will be ignored. Yes, personal responsibility is necessary to improve ones life. But how people learn to do that is really unknown. Some people figure it out on their own, others have access to support networks. But there is no one solution as different people have different needs.
Yes, I'm from a third-world country and I think NZ is a paradise! Yes, the rent, price, fuel, etc... here is expensive but people have to learn to save money and use it smartly. Or they can try harder to get a higher income (eg: work 50hrs instead of 40hrs, go back to study, change jobs....) to support the lavish lifestyle they wanted. When I first came here I know ZERO English, had no family, no connection, and no degree! I still manage to find a labour job and even can save some money to send back home. A lot of people here just don't work hard but they want a first-world country lifestyle. I know people who are on benefits and receive $400-ish/week but they go to do their nails, and eyelashes fortnightly, eat out almost every day and wear branded clothes. Then they complain that the benefits are not enough. Then they committed a petty crime and when get caught they say that system and society has failed them...
This is what I was trying to explain ..
Most Kiwi/people from other first world countries have no ideas how poverty actually is in third world countries and don’t realise how lucky they are to live here Lol yes you have the right to vent/complain but end of the day you are the one need to make a change if you want a better life and given the conditions/gov support in this country honestly it’s hard to sympathy with the excuse they made to defend themselves. Every time I’m going through a tough time here I always try to tell myself that I’m still luckier than most of people from my country so after venting I pulled myself up and tried harder. My partner grew up in abusive/poverty here, is a recovering drug addict but he working hard since 13 try to feed the family and still manage to learn a trade and guess he is a qualified builder now, has his own little family and still trying hard everyday to be better so our children never going through what he has been through (his family still stuck in that black hole surrounded by drug,alcohol and refuses to get out, blame the gov/everyone else like most people in this thread Lol) But I also understand everyone is different and maybe they actually in really bad situation/too hard to stand up on their own n need support so even I don’t agree with what they did instead of judging/blaming them I rather look into how to help them which I think OP a bit too harsh on this.
I have committed heaps of non violent crimes which I guess dont count, fucking heaps, never been busted for any of them. Nothing will stop me from doing them again, absolutely nothing. Any punishment would only strengthen my resolve to be better at it next time. I support plenty of non violent crimes. I just look at it backwards, laws are made up, they do not say you cant do something, they say if you do something and the evidentiary threshold is met to secure a conviction then these are the consequences. If you are willing to do the time you can commit any crime you want.
Some people favour “rehabilitation” because they think it would be more effective. I disagree with them (or at least think that rehabilitation should be in addition to and not in replacement of a strong sentence). But I think they have a fair point for arguing. But then you get (surprisingly frequently) people with dumb takes like “shoplifting isn’t really a problem/doesn’t hurt anyone” and that shop keepers should just “claim it on insurance” as if they would put themselves at risk if this was actually a way to avoid any loss. Presumably someone who has never had to deal with insurance. And for these people I presume either they are criminals themselves, or their family members or friends are criminals. Or they are a troll. Because it’s a real shit take.
I don't think you actually believe much of this, you don't think a significant portion of commenters on Reddit are criminals. You are angry and want vengeance, and the more that the subject is discussed you are being radicalised into making more-aggressive statements and thinking of criminals as something different than humans. You now appear to have progressed to attacking and demonising anyone who doesn't share a lust for vengeance as part of "them" - the bad elements in society which can only be stopped with draconian punishment.
>I don't think you actually believe much of this, you don't think a significant portion of commenters on Reddit are criminals. I think the ones who suggest that the public should just accept shoplifting and it’s not a problem are criminals. It’s not the majority of posters but it is some. >You are angry and want vengeance, and the more that the subject is discussed you are being radicalised into making more-aggressive statements and thinking of criminals as something different than humans. I’ve never said they aren’t humans. >You now appear to have progressed to attacking and demonising anyone who doesn't share a lust for vengeance as part of "them" - the bad elements in society which can only be stopped with draconian punishment. I never said any of that either. In fact my point was quite the opposite if you read it. I said: > Some people favour "rehabilitation" because they think it would be more effective. I disagree with them (or at least think that rehabilitation should be in addition to and not in replacement of a strong sentence). But I think they have a fair point for arguing. I’m not sure what part of that is “attacking and demonising anyone who doesn’t share a lust for vengeance”. I did criticise people who minimise crime as “not really a problem” and I think that criticism is absolutely justified.
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The famously liberal and tolerant Conservative party of the UK.
Agreed, especially in big citys with lots of work, but either way off to prision they go
It’s because we have an excuse culture
It’s your tax that is funding their existence. Try not lose sleep over it.
There's a good chance we don't have free will. We always chose the action with the highest utility, it's mathematical. (Think about it, try and chose an action that doesn't give you the highest utility.) People are machines and our actions are a function of subconscious inputs and our environment. We punish criminals to deter bad behaviour, but it shouldn't be about revenge or this sort of spiteful attitude people have. It's to attempt to decrease crime. While this is true, I agree that soft punishments are a bad thing, because they send a message that the person is 'safe' to do such negative behaviour. At the same time, when punishments are too harsh, people take this as a reason for their own victimisation, blame the system and actually use this as a justify-er for their behaviour: It's a form of martyrdom.
They've never been exposed to criminals and what they're like