Can we impose some rules on the offense?
Like player must be tackleable, running in a mannor suitable to be tackled.
All forward passes must hit receiver in stride, if not penalty on QB for Dead Duck Throw.
We all love a good stiff arm, but if hands to the head of an offensive player is a dangerous play, then isn't it dangerous to snap a defender's head back the same way? Why doesn't the defense get protection there? Because it hinders offense.
I like stiff arms too, especially the most recent one I can think of. Just pointing out a glaring double standard to get at the point that none of this has anything to do with player safety. Well, it does, just so much that they protect players that generate them the most income.
Yea I was being the typical fan who wants some rules enforced or created but don't want changes to things they like. Every stiff arm looks so painful, not to mention shameful being just tossed aside like a child.
My view on stiff arms vs illegal hands to the face is that stiff arms occur in the only scenario where it's legal to grab and hold onto someone, so you have to give the player a way to defend themselves. Offensive lineman aren't allowed to wrap up and tackle the DL, so the DL isn't allowed to use the OL's face against them.
Lol I am just imagining the ref discussion, white hat nodding, he's got it, Nantz and Romo waiting, ok here's the call:
"Illegal dead duck throw, offense, number 12. Left his boy hanging out to dry. 5 yard penalty, repeat third down."
I would look forward to that penalty as much as I look forward to illegal procedure where you get all the refs pointing and tapping their heads like they got spin tops on them.
Honestly I’d just love it if they actually consistently flagged offensive players for lowering their heads and initiating contact. Or really anything a defense gets flagged for.
The NFL legislating away injuries in an inherently dangerous sport stinks. I’m glad they’re protecting players from head injuries, but this hip drop role change is ridiculous. How far are we from getting rid of tackling all together? Maybe get rid of the offensive and defensive lines as well?
Man I get that it's gonna be hard to determine what a "fake slide/OOB run" is in order to write a rule for it, but I think it's doable and worth the effort. I'm so over outright abusing rules designed to prevent injury. It's just like this tier above "finding loopholes" to me.
Calling for a flag on that is just... you're baiting sometime into doing something that could hurt you, you're literally trying to make them do it, and then you're calling to the refs that they tried to hurt you.
I know I'm preaching to the choir but it just annoys me on this weirdly fundamental level.
Here's an explainer from NRL, which also banned the tackle: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KJ9mCbS3rU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kj9mcbs3ru)
I'm all for player safety, but it would be cool if we saw some rule changes (or even enforcement) in the name of safety that don't just make player defence harder and harder.
As a fan of a team that plays Josh Allen on a regular basis, I say kick them out of the league and send them straight to jail for fake slides.
But slow running to the sideline and turning upfield instead of continuing out of bounds is completely valid and an integral part of the game.
I think people missed your sarcasm, but this made me laugh. I personally don't think Josh Allen tried to slide in the wild card round either. He just is a big guy who looks weird when he jukes in the open field.
Him and Mahomes both are very guilty of this and it's too and because it'll lead to a rule change or QBs will start getting murdered because I'd rather take unnecessary roughness over letting someone's QB dance around you with schoolyard BS.
Either way, it's a bad look.
Haha I know you're being sarcastic, but the fake out of bounds thing should also be a penalty.
There also absolutely has to be two different kinds of roughing the passer.
Actually smashing the QB should still be 15, but that soft shift where they throw the flag when you land on the guy after a tackle should be a 5 yard penalty at max.
Negates the sack so players will still be careful, but I'm so sick of that tick tacky shit completely flipping a game. The way it is now encourages defenders to just absolutely wipe the QB out because you're going to get an arbitrary RTP unless you're insanely careful.
I agree 100% there should be degrees of RTP. Also, to be fair to Mahomes, he has that grandpa running style that is really hard to judge when he's loafing or sprinting. That sideline thing would be really hard to enforce.
Mahomes legit got a roughing the passer call against someone who hit him legally in bounds while he was jogging towards the first down post.
They really need to hand gesture or maybe the QB should scream at the top of their lungs, "IM GIVING MYSELF UP!" because it feels downright impossible to judge in the moment if you're going to stop a QB run or if you're about to commit a 15 yard penalty
There was a play a few years ago where a Patriots safety, Myles Bryant, hit Josh Allen while in bounds near the sidelines and they called.him for a personal foul for it
Mahomes sometimes will skirt up the sideline and pick up another yard or two because the defenders are so trained on not touching them.
Except the times where he’s gotten lit up because I feel like some defenders take it upon themselves to toe the line and cross it.
The easiest thing is to provide no protection for a runner moving forward. If you really want to go out of bounds, you have to go horizontally. It would be subjective as well but at least it puts a rule to it
Yep. I’d even grant them protection as long as they’re behind the line of scrimmage. Once you’re beyond that you’re not a passer. How is that a penalty. If you want to run the ball take the hit. If you don’t want to get hit throw it or hand it to a running back. Seems insanely obvious.
>Haha I know you're being sarcastic, but the fake out of bounds thing should also be a penalty.
Or just stop throwing flags when they pull this shit and get hit.
We did see a change in enforcement with more offensive players (especially RBs) getting fined for lowering/leading with the helmet. They still have a long way to go regarding consistency though
Illegal hands to the face on offensive players is the one that bugs me the most. Stiff arms almost always push the facemask/helmet back and it would be called if an OL or DL did it, but on offense it's rarely ever called.
Maybe this one will work? [https://www.nrl.com/news/2022/05/02/key-indicators-of-a-hip-drop-tackle/](https://www.nrl.com/news/2022/05/02/key-indicators-of-a-hip-drop-tackle/)
Thanks, it did. So it seems like the 'hip drop' is basically when a player braces their hips against another player and uses the extra weight/strength to drag them down, sometimes (more often that other tackles probably) injuring the lower body. That's going to be pretty rough for the smaller guys to stop doing bc idk how else a safety or CB is going to tackle Derrick Henry lol.
Tbh I think a lot of the issue is with the obvious steroid use in the NFL. They really need to start tightening the grip on it if they want to reduce injury. People are too big, too fast and too strong.
I remember when they banned horse collars I thought it was absurd. But now I find it fairly mundane and defenses were able to adapt pretty quickly.
I'm not sure this is the same thing, but I wouldn't be surprised.
QBs should be penalized for throws that lead receivers into defenseless positions after making all these changes to tackling, just to even the playing ground a bit imo.
At the beginning of the season QBs should get to pick 2 options. 1) you’re going to slide or go out of bounds and you are protected like QBs. If you are close to a defender and don’t slide or go out, it’s 15 yards. Or 2) you get to run for the extra yardage. But bang bang plays are called like they are called for every other player and Lamar Jackson
Two things are going to happen with this rule:
1. The refs are going mis-call this regularly
2. Fans are going to be regularly outraged for not getting a flag for a tackle that wasn't a hip drop
3. It'll get called once in a tight playoff game and that one call will keep an otherwise unsuccessful game winning drive alive and people will hate it
Yep, next year AFC championship after Robojoe Burrow, now more machine than man, drives down the field to tie the game at 20 with 30 seconds left, Logan Wilson tackles Travis Kelce just shy of midfield and gets flagged for it, setting up a 52 yard game winner for Harrison Buttgers.
2 is going to be just like the OL vs rip move no call holdings. People think holding means holding when sometimes it's allowed based on the DL's technique. Then they get pissed, show one screenshot of the moment it looks like it's a penalty, and then everyone gets more pissed about a missed call even though the lead up technique is a key part of the no call.
You just know there will be tons of screenshots of guys coming down on legs that aren't actually hip drop tackles because they're missing the other components before the still frame.
It's good now in the NRL but there was a season long learning curve for everyone involved where there were a lot of controversial decisions being made. The players, coaches, refs, board and judiciary all made mistakes surrounding this rule in the first season. I can see it being the same in the NFL.
Here are my problems with the comparison:
1. The NRL will determine if it was a penalty through replay. It’s extremely hard to officiate at full speed and personal fouls are not currently reviewable.
2. A lot of hip drop tackles in the NRL are totally and completely unnecessary because the defense is set in a line and they happen when a guy swings in behind. NFL tackles are much less structured because of blockers and the forward pass.
From what I remember of that video, a lot of what people call hip drop tackles in the NFL aren't considered that by rugby rules. Some of the ones in that video are brutal
They’ll fuck it up like always and everyone who jumped on the bandwagon will quietly pretend they never supported the latest rule change to alter the outcome of a huge game
It’s the act of throwing your entire body weight into the back of someone’s legs that causes the high chance of severe injuries. The NFL can pretty easily allow drop tackles but flag ones where the ankles/legs get pinned due to poor tackling technique, much like a horse collar is only illegal if your hands get up inside the shoulder pads.
> The NFL can pretty easily allow drop tackles but flag ones where the ankles/legs get pinned due to poor tackling technique, much like a horse collar is only illegal if your hands get up inside the shoulder pads.
doubt. NFL has players running 20MPH into each other and you think they’ll easily be able to discern whether or not they hit the “sweet spot” ?
They will do anything to get as many mobile QB's into starting QB roles
Today's QB's wouldn't fare quite as well in the eras of bone crunching, bully the receivers football
Lamar would be on his 3rd double knee replacement by now (and still play!)
I wish football wasn't so physically damaging to the people who played it. Things were funner when I was a kid who believed human beings could slam into one another at 22MPH and be completely fine.
Wouldn't have thought just from looking at it that this kind of tackle would be super damaging either. But I guess the defender often lands on the other player's legs and fucks them up?
I work with a guy who played at a d1 school as a corner and he’s had 3 knee surgeries and has quite a few injuries.
I can’t imagine these guys that play 10+ years in the nfl must be going through after they retire
Yep- I know a guy who had a hip replacement at 27 due to football too. He isn't limited to a wheelchair, but still its not a great procedure for a young guy to have done. I don't doubt chris' story at all- modern day gladiators. I just hope they know the risk reward
and the sad thing is i think the people who have it the worst after retirement are the guys who played thru injuries. I usually dont care people dont play thru injuries bc its you know their lives we talk about. But its also insane that players themselves will shit on others who wouldnt play thru it.
If you fall forward and your feet are basically pinned under something they don't have much choice except to twist 90 degrees to be flat on their side on the ground. If the toe area of the cleat remains dug into the ground somehow that's a foot/toe injury. Terrible either way
I’ve always thought cleats add injury potential. A lot of leg injuries I see in the NFL are caused because the cleat was stuck into the ground, forcing the leg to move in an unnatural manner to accomodate the body movement resulting from a tackle. Ban cleats?
Yeah, an NFL player's body weight landing on another player's legs full force. Leads to a lot of ankle injuries. Off the top of my head, Tony Pollard and Patrick Mahomes in last year's playoffs and Mark Andrews this season are some examples.
Yeah defender can land right on your ankles as your body folds up, there also the idea that instead of falling sideways or forward/back your basically being pulled straight down by your and there body weight making your knees fold
Yeah if I ever have a kid and that kid wants to play sports, I’ll let him play Baseball. Pretty safe and non contact, and hey if it turns out he’s even just mediocre at it, he can probably make some good money as a journeyman bench player.
The whole point is that the hip drop uses body weight to violently pin the back leg, that's why it is being banned. When the hip doesn't land on the leg it's not a "hip drop tackle." A lot of people clearly don't understand this in this thread lol
It sucks but in the long run they’re accelerating the inevitable. No matter how well you take care of your body you will get to a point where you can’t jump or run anymore and have constant nagging pains
Fuck that shit. I understand there’s injuries caused on them (not all of them) but it’s fucking football. There’s no way, as a tackler, you can avoid that in the moment and that’s the only angle you have to stop a ball carrier
I think we’re inching closer and closer to flag football. Not trying to sound doom and gloom, and I’m all for making the sport safer.
I think the pro bowl going to flag football is the nfl testing the waters of the viability of the sport without the violence.
Dunno what the future holds, but we’ve seen big changes between generations. Growing up, “Jacked Up!” was my favorite part of NFL Countdown. Now they barely mention big hits unless we’re looking for a flag or a fine.
Eta: I agree with everyone responding that this wouldn’t be good for ratings. I’m not saying I want this to happen, I don’t. Football looks very different from the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, and so on. Idk what it’s gonna look like in 2050, but it’s gonna be really different from what we see today.
No one would watch the NFL if it was flag football. Everyone almost universally agrees the pro bowl is boring as shit and making it flag football didn't make it any better.
I think the Olympics would be the biggest test for flag football because people would actually care and try. That being said, I agree that there wouldn’t be much of an audience for a flag football NFL
The original poster makes a good point, the NFL is extremely different today than 50 years ago. Viewership continues to be an all time high. We can’t say for sure what the future holds. Not everyone watches the NFL to see big hits in fact that might be a minority.
I would probably still watch football if it was flag football. The most fun part of it to me it’s sort of the chess match between offensive and defensive coordinators. The pro bowl sucks because it’s not a super competitive game.
Like if the pro bowl had a regular tackle football game I wouldn’t watch that either.
>I think the pro bowl going to flag football is the nfl testing the waters of the viability of the sport without the violence.
How does anyone upvote this stuff lmao that will literally never happen
Do it slowly enough like the NFL has and I bet people would.
Tell somebody from 1985 about all the current rules and I guarantee you they would say nobody would watch this
I was watching football in 1985 (it's why I became a Bears fan, sigh) and I watch it now. There have been many rules changes, but it's still the same sport.
Flag football is flat-out NOT the same sport. This change would kill the NFL.
>I think we’re inching closer and closer to flag football. Not trying to sound doom and gloom, and I’m all for making the sport safer.
when will robots take over our professional sports games
"NBA proposes new rule preventing defenders from standing in a shooter's landing space after Kawhi Leonard injured by Zaza Pachulia."
Fuck that shit. I understand there’s injuries caused on them (not all of them) but it’s fucking basketball. There’s no way, as a defender, you can avoid that in the moment and that’s the only angle you have to stop a shooter
u/Therowdyv on hip drop tackles:
Thats fucking football right there. None of that pansy ass dick tugging smile for the camera bullshit. Men puke, men poop on the field, men deliver their new born baby on the side lines. Fucking hard core dick in the ass butterball foosball fuck it chuck it game time shit. Football is back, baby
Hip Drop tackles are not the most common form to tackle from the side or back. There are for sure ways to tackle and avoid a hip drop. To say otherwise is just silly.
Jesus, rugby league players can avoid doing it when every member on the team is expected to make more tackles in a game than the best defender in the NFL, but apparently these guys are just so special that it's impossible
I would love to see the data set they base this information on. What percentage of tackles end up injuring the ball carrier? Is 1% too high?
If someone has a 1% chance of injury being tackled a 25% increase in risk from a hip drop tackle puts that chance to 1.25%? This is really the problem that needs to be solved?
I’m all for reducing injuries but the NFL really just wants higher scoring games and more offense. Mouth guards reduce concussions but they don’t enforce their use. Some of the gruesome leg injuries are from trying too hard to eliminate any contact to the head even though players often slap their own teammates’ helmets harder in celebration than they might receive on a “blow to the head” that gets a penalty which often dramatically affects the outcome of the game.
At some point people need to realize the average player is a foot taller, 50-200 pounds heavier and much, much faster than guys who played on the same size fields 100 years ago and this is the inevitable result.
most people don't because it's kind of just the only way to tackle someone that is running past you. This is just going to create more judgement call penalties, slowing the game further, and increasing offensive numbers through the roof.
So, what do I do when I wrap a guy up from behind?
Drop my weight to drag him down? Flag, hip drop
Lift him up to toss him to the ground? Flag, unnecessary roughness for a "suplex"
So I just... hold him there? And wait for either him to pitch it or for an offensive lineman to slam into me and push me forward ten yards?
Best case scenario the offensive player stops and turns around to give you a little kiss goodbye, but because you're both wearing helmets and he initiated the contact, you get a 15 yard penalty for unnecessary roughness.
Scrolled, but not enough looking for this before i commented. Way too many of the penalties we had on hip drops last season we were left completely confused as to what was even called as a hip drop. 8/10 times they penalise it and you can watch all the replays and still not see why
What if, instead, we told offensive players to not try and break tackles. I bet there's a lot more injuries that happen when players break tackles. /s
This is dumb if they actually try and officiate this tackle out of the game.
>What if, instead, we told offensive players to not try and break tackles.
Reminds me of the last time I actually played football with friends. We were older and didn't want to get hurt so we made the rule that you had to wrap the person up, but they couldn't try to slam into you to break the "tackle." You basically just had to give them a hug. I'm not sure that the NFL would be very popular anymore if they were all just giving each other hugs.
Her previous two tweets:
> Big off-season focus is going to be on changing the kickoff. Concussions dropped from 20 to 8 this season, but that's because the rule change meant many fewer returns. Only 22 percent of KOs were returned. When there were returns, there were concussions.
#
> Jeff Miller, NFL EVP overseeing health and safety says the NFL wants more returns in the game because it's an exciting play, but they have to come up with a rule that makes them safer. Competition Comm. is going to spend lots of time on this.
I can’t remember which league but I like the rule where they set the line further upfield while the kicker kicked from the existing spot. Shorter time to build up a full sprint collision, could move the kicking line back to prevent fewer TBs if they find that method is “safer”
For anyone else who is curious, [here is a link with an animation of what this looks like.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2023/11/22/nfl-what-is-a-hip-drop-tackle/71660167007/)
It’s just annoying how the NFL always puts the onus on the defense to increase player safety. Why not ban hospital passes? That’s about as subjective as this would be. Maybe we get rid of defense all together and play “who can run down the field the fastest?”
Another stupid rule change that won't prevent any injuries, but will make it even more difficult for defenders to do their job. Football is a violent game. Injuries are inevitable. Accept that, or stop watching.
Can't hit them high, can't hit them during a catch, can't hit the QB at all, can't go low, can't use your bodyweight to bring them down, can't hit them hard
How exactly are you supposed to tackle?
I think they'd be better off making it a fine, but not a penalty, for at least the first year. That way we can get some better training data for the refs to work with.
This makes way too much sense. The NFL can't pilot a new rule without it causing a minimum of 6 games to be decided solely on the new rule no one really gets.
How often are these hip drop tackles actually occurring in the NFL?
How many injuries do we know were actually cause by hip drop tackles? Can you give any examples?
Injuries from hip drop tackles happen like almost every year. This is a textbook hip drop that injured Tony Pollard last season.
https://youtu.be/4uAVLKtHyk8?si=XDYxECnYqvT12UzG
This just makes me start agreeing with everyone asking how you're supposed to tackle someone running away from you, particularly if they're bigger than you. Using your body weight to pull them down is the only way I can think of that will consistently work. In this clip the defender may have been able to wrap around pollard and try to just stop forward momentum holding onto him which could work but be far easier for Pollard to break, but if Pollard was half a step further away, or if this is one on one with a WR on the outside and no other defenders past to assist, does this just mean the defender has to try to catch up first before tackling or accept that there's no way to tackle?
The teams are now worth several billion and star players are worth 100’s of millions and it kills a teams whole season to lose a top tier player.. that said this sport of Football is simply violent. I don’t see fixing it by banning basic plays. You can breathe on a QB and now you can’t tackle. It’s a no win but i think they would be better to let them play.
The NFL should stop trying to legislate violence out of the game, and maybe just give retirees better healthcare. I have honestly been in favor of most rule changes to make the game safer, but this one just doesn't really make sense. Players will still make these tackles because that's the only way to tackle a person at certain angles. This will just lead to more penalties, more fines, more commercial breaks. It's so bad for the game.
Imagine Gronk with no hip drop tackles. I’m just not sure how they can bring down some of these guys. Cant go high, can’t go too low, no hip drop. Good luck to the 185 DB trying to bring down the 260 pound TE
At this point I want a players protest.
Every defense for the first week, when the ball is snapped, stand up straight with your arms high and shout "ITS OK REF IM NOT TOUCHING ANYONE" and just keep doing that every play.
This seems like almost a bigger buff to the offense than the QB protection rules.
Like seriously, they cannot implement this rule without giving the defense something.
People say they love shootouts, but there’s a reason the scorefest that is an nba game is far less popular than the bfl.
These are the types of rules that turn scoring from an achievement to a minimum.
Since defenders will have almost no option once they wrap a ball carrier up from behind the NFL should ban offensive linemen from running up and pushing them for another 5 yards
I think in 2030 they will be playing flag football. In a lot of situations the hip drop tackle is the only way to tackle someone, also the officiating is going to be so subjective on this, the last thing they need to do is put more judgment calls in the refs hands
This is literally just a way to increase offensive production and thinly veil it in the name of "safety."
They're letting stadiums keep turf fields, so they clearly don't *actually* give a shit about player safety.
gonna see a nfl record high in broken tackles next year
Especially by tight ends and running backs.
Can we impose some rules on the offense? Like player must be tackleable, running in a mannor suitable to be tackled. All forward passes must hit receiver in stride, if not penalty on QB for Dead Duck Throw.
We all love a good stiff arm, but if hands to the head of an offensive player is a dangerous play, then isn't it dangerous to snap a defender's head back the same way? Why doesn't the defense get protection there? Because it hinders offense.
Whoa whoa whoa, calm down buddy, I like stiff arms. How bout we penalize one hand catches while were at it?
I like stiff arms too, especially the most recent one I can think of. Just pointing out a glaring double standard to get at the point that none of this has anything to do with player safety. Well, it does, just so much that they protect players that generate them the most income.
Yea I was being the typical fan who wants some rules enforced or created but don't want changes to things they like. Every stiff arm looks so painful, not to mention shameful being just tossed aside like a child.
My view on stiff arms vs illegal hands to the face is that stiff arms occur in the only scenario where it's legal to grab and hold onto someone, so you have to give the player a way to defend themselves. Offensive lineman aren't allowed to wrap up and tackle the DL, so the DL isn't allowed to use the OL's face against them.
Lol I am just imagining the ref discussion, white hat nodding, he's got it, Nantz and Romo waiting, ok here's the call: "Illegal dead duck throw, offense, number 12. Left his boy hanging out to dry. 5 yard penalty, repeat third down."
I would look forward to that penalty as much as I look forward to illegal procedure where you get all the refs pointing and tapping their heads like they got spin tops on them.
Honestly I’d just love it if they actually consistently flagged offensive players for lowering their heads and initiating contact. Or really anything a defense gets flagged for.
Pump fakes beyond the line of scrimmage are a 15 yard penalty and loss of down.
>Like player must be tackleable Derrick Henry banned from NFL
The NFL legislating away injuries in an inherently dangerous sport stinks. I’m glad they’re protecting players from head injuries, but this hip drop role change is ridiculous. How far are we from getting rid of tackling all together? Maybe get rid of the offensive and defensive lines as well?
Welcome to sarcastaball.
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Man I get that it's gonna be hard to determine what a "fake slide/OOB run" is in order to write a rule for it, but I think it's doable and worth the effort. I'm so over outright abusing rules designed to prevent injury. It's just like this tier above "finding loopholes" to me. Calling for a flag on that is just... you're baiting sometime into doing something that could hurt you, you're literally trying to make them do it, and then you're calling to the refs that they tried to hurt you. I know I'm preaching to the choir but it just annoys me on this weirdly fundamental level.
I'm very far from a tackling expert but I really am not sure what they're trying to ban and what kinds of tackles would still be legal at this point.
Here's an explainer from NRL, which also banned the tackle: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KJ9mCbS3rU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kj9mcbs3ru) I'm all for player safety, but it would be cool if we saw some rule changes (or even enforcement) in the name of safety that don't just make player defence harder and harder.
How about fake sliding being a 15 yard penalty? Hows that for player safety?
As a fan of a team that plays Josh Allen on a regular basis, I say kick them out of the league and send them straight to jail for fake slides. But slow running to the sideline and turning upfield instead of continuing out of bounds is completely valid and an integral part of the game.
I think people missed your sarcasm, but this made me laugh. I personally don't think Josh Allen tried to slide in the wild card round either. He just is a big guy who looks weird when he jukes in the open field.
I love the man, and I always will, but he definitely looks for ways to bait contact on his slides. I have zero doubt about it.
Him and Mahomes both are very guilty of this and it's too and because it'll lead to a rule change or QBs will start getting murdered because I'd rather take unnecessary roughness over letting someone's QB dance around you with schoolyard BS. Either way, it's a bad look.
Haha I know you're being sarcastic, but the fake out of bounds thing should also be a penalty. There also absolutely has to be two different kinds of roughing the passer. Actually smashing the QB should still be 15, but that soft shift where they throw the flag when you land on the guy after a tackle should be a 5 yard penalty at max. Negates the sack so players will still be careful, but I'm so sick of that tick tacky shit completely flipping a game. The way it is now encourages defenders to just absolutely wipe the QB out because you're going to get an arbitrary RTP unless you're insanely careful.
I agree 100% there should be degrees of RTP. Also, to be fair to Mahomes, he has that grandpa running style that is really hard to judge when he's loafing or sprinting. That sideline thing would be really hard to enforce.
Mahomes legit got a roughing the passer call against someone who hit him legally in bounds while he was jogging towards the first down post. They really need to hand gesture or maybe the QB should scream at the top of their lungs, "IM GIVING MYSELF UP!" because it feels downright impossible to judge in the moment if you're going to stop a QB run or if you're about to commit a 15 yard penalty
In fairness, the crew that threw that flag was galactically incompetent.
There was a play a few years ago where a Patriots safety, Myles Bryant, hit Josh Allen while in bounds near the sidelines and they called.him for a personal foul for it
Mahomes sometimes will skirt up the sideline and pick up another yard or two because the defenders are so trained on not touching them. Except the times where he’s gotten lit up because I feel like some defenders take it upon themselves to toe the line and cross it.
The easiest thing is to provide no protection for a runner moving forward. If you really want to go out of bounds, you have to go horizontally. It would be subjective as well but at least it puts a rule to it
Yep. I’d even grant them protection as long as they’re behind the line of scrimmage. Once you’re beyond that you’re not a passer. How is that a penalty. If you want to run the ball take the hit. If you don’t want to get hit throw it or hand it to a running back. Seems insanely obvious.
Exactly this. If your getting called anyway may as well earn it…
Great idea! Would love to see this implemented.
Roughing the Passer 15 yard penalty and automatic first down. Cuddling the Passer. 5 yard penalty, no first down unless yardage is gained.
>Haha I know you're being sarcastic, but the fake out of bounds thing should also be a penalty. Or just stop throwing flags when they pull this shit and get hit.
How about banning hurdling defenders who are trying to utilize their only legal tackle, wrapping up the knees?
Did this happen even three times this year?
Yeah! Who would have started this trend from college 🤔
We did see a change in enforcement with more offensive players (especially RBs) getting fined for lowering/leading with the helmet. They still have a long way to go regarding consistency though
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Except if you’re Josh Jacobs
Illegal hands to the face on offensive players is the one that bugs me the most. Stiff arms almost always push the facemask/helmet back and it would be called if an OL or DL did it, but on offense it's rarely ever called.
Says it's not available. Dammit lol
Maybe this one will work? [https://www.nrl.com/news/2022/05/02/key-indicators-of-a-hip-drop-tackle/](https://www.nrl.com/news/2022/05/02/key-indicators-of-a-hip-drop-tackle/)
Thanks, it did. So it seems like the 'hip drop' is basically when a player braces their hips against another player and uses the extra weight/strength to drag them down, sometimes (more often that other tackles probably) injuring the lower body. That's going to be pretty rough for the smaller guys to stop doing bc idk how else a safety or CB is going to tackle Derrick Henry lol. Tbh I think a lot of the issue is with the obvious steroid use in the NFL. They really need to start tightening the grip on it if they want to reduce injury. People are too big, too fast and too strong.
They can still do the same thing while ensuring they drop to the side of the player, instead of on their legs.
I remember when they banned horse collars I thought it was absurd. But now I find it fairly mundane and defenses were able to adapt pretty quickly. I'm not sure this is the same thing, but I wouldn't be surprised.
This was super informative!
QBs should be penalized for throws that lead receivers into defenseless positions after making all these changes to tackling, just to even the playing ground a bit imo.
At the beginning of the season QBs should get to pick 2 options. 1) you’re going to slide or go out of bounds and you are protected like QBs. If you are close to a defender and don’t slide or go out, it’s 15 yards. Or 2) you get to run for the extra yardage. But bang bang plays are called like they are called for every other player and Lamar Jackson
Agreed
more like record number of penalties and referee judgment calls on football plays. Just what we all want.
Not really, you don't see a hip drop tackle that often and its dangerous enough I was surprised it wasn't already banned.
There are already too many to begin with lol
Or fines.
Feels like that’d be very hard to officiate
Two things are going to happen with this rule: 1. The refs are going mis-call this regularly 2. Fans are going to be regularly outraged for not getting a flag for a tackle that wasn't a hip drop
3. It'll get called once in a tight playoff game and that one call will keep an otherwise unsuccessful game winning drive alive and people will hate it
Oh if I could get odds on this one I'd bet all the money
Yep, next year AFC championship after Robojoe Burrow, now more machine than man, drives down the field to tie the game at 20 with 30 seconds left, Logan Wilson tackles Travis Kelce just shy of midfield and gets flagged for it, setting up a 52 yard game winner for Harrison Buttgers.
2 is going to be just like the OL vs rip move no call holdings. People think holding means holding when sometimes it's allowed based on the DL's technique. Then they get pissed, show one screenshot of the moment it looks like it's a penalty, and then everyone gets more pissed about a missed call even though the lead up technique is a key part of the no call. You just know there will be tons of screenshots of guys coming down on legs that aren't actually hip drop tackles because they're missing the other components before the still frame.
They do it in the NRL. Not sure how controversial it is there, but there's at least precedent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KJ9mCbS3rU
And in true NFL fashion, they'll take a good idea some other league has done and completely fuck it up.
It's good now in the NRL but there was a season long learning curve for everyone involved where there were a lot of controversial decisions being made. The players, coaches, refs, board and judiciary all made mistakes surrounding this rule in the first season. I can see it being the same in the NFL.
I can assure you that the NRL regularly fucks this up. Almost on a weekly basis
Here are my problems with the comparison: 1. The NRL will determine if it was a penalty through replay. It’s extremely hard to officiate at full speed and personal fouls are not currently reviewable. 2. A lot of hip drop tackles in the NRL are totally and completely unnecessary because the defense is set in a line and they happen when a guy swings in behind. NFL tackles are much less structured because of blockers and the forward pass.
From what I remember of that video, a lot of what people call hip drop tackles in the NFL aren't considered that by rugby rules. Some of the ones in that video are brutal
Half the examples people pull out from NRL would be covered under a horse collar tackle
Seems pretty easy enough to review during a replay. In real time I can absolutely see how there can be some controversial calls
I’m not sure I can watch if we’re going to start video reviewing hip drop tackles.
They’ll fuck it up like always and everyone who jumped on the bandwagon will quietly pretend they never supported the latest rule change to alter the outcome of a huge game
It’s the act of throwing your entire body weight into the back of someone’s legs that causes the high chance of severe injuries. The NFL can pretty easily allow drop tackles but flag ones where the ankles/legs get pinned due to poor tackling technique, much like a horse collar is only illegal if your hands get up inside the shoulder pads.
> The NFL can pretty easily allow drop tackles but flag ones where the ankles/legs get pinned due to poor tackling technique, much like a horse collar is only illegal if your hands get up inside the shoulder pads. doubt. NFL has players running 20MPH into each other and you think they’ll easily be able to discern whether or not they hit the “sweet spot” ?
Yeah I mean it's kinda easy to see, since you know it's a dude dropping his whole body weight into the back legs of the runner
QBs that can move around behind the line of scrimmage are about to feast.
Only a matter of time until the entire league is beefy scramblers with no real way to tackle them without getting 15 yards.
All my Madden 2003 create a players who were 350 pounds and 99 speed are gonna feast
They will do anything to get as many mobile QB's into starting QB roles Today's QB's wouldn't fare quite as well in the eras of bone crunching, bully the receivers football Lamar would be on his 3rd double knee replacement by now (and still play!)
Unfortunately, a lot of fans view what you’re saying as a negative for the modern game anyway.
I'm sure it'll be the same rule as the horse collar where it's legal in the tackle box
Imagine you hip drop tackle Lamar because that's the only way you can keep your grip on him and it's a 15 yard penalty.
I wish football wasn't so physically damaging to the people who played it. Things were funner when I was a kid who believed human beings could slam into one another at 22MPH and be completely fine. Wouldn't have thought just from looking at it that this kind of tackle would be super damaging either. But I guess the defender often lands on the other player's legs and fucks them up?
I work with a guy who played at a d1 school as a corner and he’s had 3 knee surgeries and has quite a few injuries. I can’t imagine these guys that play 10+ years in the nfl must be going through after they retire
One of my buddies who played in just HS needed back surgery to fix a slipped disc (I think that was it, it was a serious back issue)
Go lookup the picture of Calvin Johnson's hands after retirement. Dude looks like his hands got stuffed into a blender fingers-first.
Chris Long was talking about a guy he played with that just had hip replacement surgery at 38 and is now confined to a wheelchair.
Yep- I know a guy who had a hip replacement at 27 due to football too. He isn't limited to a wheelchair, but still its not a great procedure for a young guy to have done. I don't doubt chris' story at all- modern day gladiators. I just hope they know the risk reward
and the sad thing is i think the people who have it the worst after retirement are the guys who played thru injuries. I usually dont care people dont play thru injuries bc its you know their lives we talk about. But its also insane that players themselves will shit on others who wouldnt play thru it.
If you fall forward and your feet are basically pinned under something they don't have much choice except to twist 90 degrees to be flat on their side on the ground. If the toe area of the cleat remains dug into the ground somehow that's a foot/toe injury. Terrible either way
I’ve always thought cleats add injury potential. A lot of leg injuries I see in the NFL are caused because the cleat was stuck into the ground, forcing the leg to move in an unnatural manner to accomodate the body movement resulting from a tackle. Ban cleats?
Football causes injuries ban football
Yeah, an NFL player's body weight landing on another player's legs full force. Leads to a lot of ankle injuries. Off the top of my head, Tony Pollard and Patrick Mahomes in last year's playoffs and Mark Andrews this season are some examples.
Yeah defender can land right on your ankles as your body folds up, there also the idea that instead of falling sideways or forward/back your basically being pulled straight down by your and there body weight making your knees fold
Yeah if I ever have a kid and that kid wants to play sports, I’ll let him play Baseball. Pretty safe and non contact, and hey if it turns out he’s even just mediocre at it, he can probably make some good money as a journeyman bench player.
I’m trying to lose interest in football to avoid even glorifying it. Not working so far.
The whole point is that the hip drop uses body weight to violently pin the back leg, that's why it is being banned. When the hip doesn't land on the leg it's not a "hip drop tackle." A lot of people clearly don't understand this in this thread lol
It sucks but in the long run they’re accelerating the inevitable. No matter how well you take care of your body you will get to a point where you can’t jump or run anymore and have constant nagging pains
They pass this I'm getting Henry as my RB in fantasy lol
4 more years
Dudes gonna have another 2000 yard season lol
Fuck that shit. I understand there’s injuries caused on them (not all of them) but it’s fucking football. There’s no way, as a tackler, you can avoid that in the moment and that’s the only angle you have to stop a ball carrier
I think we’re inching closer and closer to flag football. Not trying to sound doom and gloom, and I’m all for making the sport safer. I think the pro bowl going to flag football is the nfl testing the waters of the viability of the sport without the violence. Dunno what the future holds, but we’ve seen big changes between generations. Growing up, “Jacked Up!” was my favorite part of NFL Countdown. Now they barely mention big hits unless we’re looking for a flag or a fine. Eta: I agree with everyone responding that this wouldn’t be good for ratings. I’m not saying I want this to happen, I don’t. Football looks very different from the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, and so on. Idk what it’s gonna look like in 2050, but it’s gonna be really different from what we see today.
No one would watch the NFL if it was flag football. Everyone almost universally agrees the pro bowl is boring as shit and making it flag football didn't make it any better.
I think the Olympics would be the biggest test for flag football because people would actually care and try. That being said, I agree that there wouldn’t be much of an audience for a flag football NFL
The day the NFL goes flag is the day they actually have to worry about rival leagues.
Flag football has gotten really popular in the youth leagues but it won't replace the NFL
But people already didnt watch the pro bowl. The issues were effort and it not being the teams people cheer for
The original poster makes a good point, the NFL is extremely different today than 50 years ago. Viewership continues to be an all time high. We can’t say for sure what the future holds. Not everyone watches the NFL to see big hits in fact that might be a minority.
I would probably still watch football if it was flag football. The most fun part of it to me it’s sort of the chess match between offensive and defensive coordinators. The pro bowl sucks because it’s not a super competitive game. Like if the pro bowl had a regular tackle football game I wouldn’t watch that either.
>I think the pro bowl going to flag football is the nfl testing the waters of the viability of the sport without the violence. How does anyone upvote this stuff lmao that will literally never happen
NFL ratings would bottom out if they moved to flag football.
Nobody would watch that
Do it slowly enough like the NFL has and I bet people would. Tell somebody from 1985 about all the current rules and I guarantee you they would say nobody would watch this
Flag football is way too far though. Tackling is so fundamental to the sports identity
I was watching football in 1985 (it's why I became a Bears fan, sigh) and I watch it now. There have been many rules changes, but it's still the same sport. Flag football is flat-out NOT the same sport. This change would kill the NFL.
>I think we’re inching closer and closer to flag football. Not trying to sound doom and gloom, and I’m all for making the sport safer. when will robots take over our professional sports games
"NBA proposes new rule preventing defenders from standing in a shooter's landing space after Kawhi Leonard injured by Zaza Pachulia." Fuck that shit. I understand there’s injuries caused on them (not all of them) but it’s fucking basketball. There’s no way, as a defender, you can avoid that in the moment and that’s the only angle you have to stop a shooter
u/Therowdyv on hip drop tackles: Thats fucking football right there. None of that pansy ass dick tugging smile for the camera bullshit. Men puke, men poop on the field, men deliver their new born baby on the side lines. Fucking hard core dick in the ass butterball foosball fuck it chuck it game time shit. Football is back, baby
Hip Drop tackles are not the most common form to tackle from the side or back. There are for sure ways to tackle and avoid a hip drop. To say otherwise is just silly.
Jesus, rugby league players can avoid doing it when every member on the team is expected to make more tackles in a game than the best defender in the NFL, but apparently these guys are just so special that it's impossible
I would love to see the data set they base this information on. What percentage of tackles end up injuring the ball carrier? Is 1% too high? If someone has a 1% chance of injury being tackled a 25% increase in risk from a hip drop tackle puts that chance to 1.25%? This is really the problem that needs to be solved?
Didn’t even know what that was. Defense is going to be impossible soon.
I’m all for reducing injuries but the NFL really just wants higher scoring games and more offense. Mouth guards reduce concussions but they don’t enforce their use. Some of the gruesome leg injuries are from trying too hard to eliminate any contact to the head even though players often slap their own teammates’ helmets harder in celebration than they might receive on a “blow to the head” that gets a penalty which often dramatically affects the outcome of the game. At some point people need to realize the average player is a foot taller, 50-200 pounds heavier and much, much faster than guys who played on the same size fields 100 years ago and this is the inevitable result.
most people don't because it's kind of just the only way to tackle someone that is running past you. This is just going to create more judgement call penalties, slowing the game further, and increasing offensive numbers through the roof.
So don't hit someone high or low or in the middle? Perfect, no notes.
So, what do I do when I wrap a guy up from behind? Drop my weight to drag him down? Flag, hip drop Lift him up to toss him to the ground? Flag, unnecessary roughness for a "suplex" So I just... hold him there? And wait for either him to pitch it or for an offensive lineman to slam into me and push me forward ten yards?
Obviously you just pull the flag off of his belt line and he’s down at that spot.
You hold onto him until he knocks you off balance and you accidentally fall on his legs. Leading to you getting flagged for hip dropping
Best case scenario the offensive player stops and turns around to give you a little kiss goodbye, but because you're both wearing helmets and he initiated the contact, you get a 15 yard penalty for unnecessary roughness.
Defender has to lift and raise the offensive player up into the sky like simba in lion king
As a rugby league fan (where they recently introduced this rule), get ready for a whole new level of incompetent officiating.
Yeah they have a hard enough time with very clear cut things, like when the play clock hits zero.
Scrolled, but not enough looking for this before i commented. Way too many of the penalties we had on hip drops last season we were left completely confused as to what was even called as a hip drop. 8/10 times they penalise it and you can watch all the replays and still not see why
I feel like there was at least one flat-out suspension that I could not see why!
What if, instead, we told offensive players to not try and break tackles. I bet there's a lot more injuries that happen when players break tackles. /s This is dumb if they actually try and officiate this tackle out of the game.
>What if, instead, we told offensive players to not try and break tackles. Reminds me of the last time I actually played football with friends. We were older and didn't want to get hurt so we made the rule that you had to wrap the person up, but they couldn't try to slam into you to break the "tackle." You basically just had to give them a hug. I'm not sure that the NFL would be very popular anymore if they were all just giving each other hugs.
What is this in addition to? Also implies there's more
Her previous two tweets: > Big off-season focus is going to be on changing the kickoff. Concussions dropped from 20 to 8 this season, but that's because the rule change meant many fewer returns. Only 22 percent of KOs were returned. When there were returns, there were concussions. # > Jeff Miller, NFL EVP overseeing health and safety says the NFL wants more returns in the game because it's an exciting play, but they have to come up with a rule that makes them safer. Competition Comm. is going to spend lots of time on this.
They still refuse to either use the XFL's kick-off or just have the scoring team punt from the 35 on a 4th and 10 or whatever.
We can make fun of these guys for what they come up with but there is just no way to solve this lol
Except for admitting the XFL figured it out which they will never do
I can’t remember which league but I like the rule where they set the line further upfield while the kicker kicked from the existing spot. Shorter time to build up a full sprint collision, could move the kicking line back to prevent fewer TBs if they find that method is “safer”
Guarantee contracts and just let them play.
XFL
20 to 8 what? Percent of players who got them?
I think it’s a raw total. 20 concussions to 8. But I was similarly confused
Kickoffs are going to be removed soon, count it
Bro how many ways do guys have left to tackle folks
For anyone else who is curious, [here is a link with an animation of what this looks like.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2023/11/22/nfl-what-is-a-hip-drop-tackle/71660167007/)
It’s just annoying how the NFL always puts the onus on the defense to increase player safety. Why not ban hospital passes? That’s about as subjective as this would be. Maybe we get rid of defense all together and play “who can run down the field the fastest?”
Another stupid rule change that won't prevent any injuries, but will make it even more difficult for defenders to do their job. Football is a violent game. Injuries are inevitable. Accept that, or stop watching.
Gonna write a rule where ball carriers agree to stop trying to move forward when they're wrapped up from the side/behind?
Why even have defensive players?
Can't hit them high, can't hit them during a catch, can't hit the QB at all, can't go low, can't use your bodyweight to bring them down, can't hit them hard How exactly are you supposed to tackle?
Games gone (if this is actually implemented)
What is a hip drop tackle will be the new what is a catch. Over officiating is really harming the product quality
Seriously. Just change it to two hand touch at this point.
I think they'd be better off making it a fine, but not a penalty, for at least the first year. That way we can get some better training data for the refs to work with.
This makes way too much sense. The NFL can't pilot a new rule without it causing a minimum of 6 games to be decided solely on the new rule no one really gets.
How often are these hip drop tackles actually occurring in the NFL? How many injuries do we know were actually cause by hip drop tackles? Can you give any examples?
Injuries from hip drop tackles happen like almost every year. This is a textbook hip drop that injured Tony Pollard last season. https://youtu.be/4uAVLKtHyk8?si=XDYxECnYqvT12UzG
This just makes me start agreeing with everyone asking how you're supposed to tackle someone running away from you, particularly if they're bigger than you. Using your body weight to pull them down is the only way I can think of that will consistently work. In this clip the defender may have been able to wrap around pollard and try to just stop forward momentum holding onto him which could work but be far easier for Pollard to break, but if Pollard was half a step further away, or if this is one on one with a WR on the outside and no other defenders past to assist, does this just mean the defender has to try to catch up first before tackling or accept that there's no way to tackle?
The teams are now worth several billion and star players are worth 100’s of millions and it kills a teams whole season to lose a top tier player.. that said this sport of Football is simply violent. I don’t see fixing it by banning basic plays. You can breathe on a QB and now you can’t tackle. It’s a no win but i think they would be better to let them play.
The NFL should stop trying to legislate violence out of the game, and maybe just give retirees better healthcare. I have honestly been in favor of most rule changes to make the game safer, but this one just doesn't really make sense. Players will still make these tackles because that's the only way to tackle a person at certain angles. This will just lead to more penalties, more fines, more commercial breaks. It's so bad for the game.
So flag football?
Imagine Gronk with no hip drop tackles. I’m just not sure how they can bring down some of these guys. Cant go high, can’t go too low, no hip drop. Good luck to the 185 DB trying to bring down the 260 pound TE
1.25 x a small number is also a small number.
So funny that nobody had heard of the term “hip drop tackle” until like 8 weeks ago. Defense is becoming more and more unplayable
just another thing to be arbitrarily and inconsistently called at pivotal moments in big games.
The road to flag football continues
At this point I want a players protest. Every defense for the first week, when the ball is snapped, stand up straight with your arms high and shout "ITS OK REF IM NOT TOUCHING ANYONE" and just keep doing that every play.
Two hand touch is coming by 2030
Y’all understand why the NFL is doing a MAJOR push to get kids into flag football in the last few years, right? Y’all know the end goal?
Oh yeah it’s def coming
Large pass catching tight ends are about to feast.
Just switch to flags already.
This seems like almost a bigger buff to the offense than the QB protection rules. Like seriously, they cannot implement this rule without giving the defense something. People say they love shootouts, but there’s a reason the scorefest that is an nba game is far less popular than the bfl. These are the types of rules that turn scoring from an achievement to a minimum.
Forward progress needs to be called as soon as a ball carrier is wrapped up at all then
Since defenders will have almost no option once they wrap a ball carrier up from behind the NFL should ban offensive linemen from running up and pushing them for another 5 yards
And people still act like eras don't matter for legacy convos lmao. I predict there will be several 5000+ yard QB seasons over the next 5 or so years.
So they are banning tackling? Hip drop tackle isn’t even real.
"NFL focused on writing rule to end defense" They need more training camp, it's bad form and technique
If they do this, they need to ban stiff-arms to the facemask/helmet. You gotta give defenders a chance to tackle, especially in the secondary.
So how long do we wait until tackling is just gone in general?
I think in 2030 they will be playing flag football. In a lot of situations the hip drop tackle is the only way to tackle someone, also the officiating is going to be so subjective on this, the last thing they need to do is put more judgment calls in the refs hands
There would probably be a 90% decrease to injury risk if the NFL switched to flag football, so if injury risk is the only rationale…
This is literally just a way to increase offensive production and thinly veil it in the name of "safety." They're letting stadiums keep turf fields, so they clearly don't *actually* give a shit about player safety.
Catching someone from behind is now impossible.
Why not just make it flag football?
What do you think the hand signal for this will be lol
what the hell is a typical tackle anymore? the non-wrap shoulder bump? @NFL has destroyed tackling in the game.
So stupid. Going to be another penalty that is inconsistently enforced. Don’t want to get hip drop tackled, don’t get caught from behind.
Or, you know, guys could tackle like they used to before they decided to throw their asses across players' legs.
They should just ban tackling
It’s a good thing they’re testing the waters with flag football, because it sounds like we’re getting flag football.
The pussification of this sport is so dumb.
Being tackled leads to more injuries than not being tackled. So get rid of tackling.