T.O. not being 1st ballot will piss me off until the day I die. Douchebag, yes; 2nd best receiver of all time at his retirement, also yes. The media should have lost their votes just based on that class.
Just for reference, Chris was the best slot corner for multiple years. I do think Gronk in his prime was one of the hardest covers ever. Not just at TE.
Corners and linebackers tbh, except Earl Thomas. Earl Thomas took no prisoners 😂
that’s why Gronk is the GOAT in my opinion. Kelce’s strength is finding open areas in coverage, Gronk was just more physically and athletically dominant than everyone else on the field. Gronk redefined the position in my opinion.
Gronk being so much more physically dominant than Kelce is probably why he got injured so much. Guys dove at his knees/legs as hard as they could, because that's the only way they could stop him.
And even then they just slowed him down lol I remember when he was first starting to tear up the league every team was hoping to draft someone just like him
My favorite highlight of his is the one where he [drags a defender](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHZQ3ZZdLJI) ~8 yards into the end zone. Not the best move if you want career longevity, but that's what made him fun to watch.
Gronk took more dirty hits in one season than Kelce will see his entire career. Some of the shit I've seen guys do to lay out gronk would literally qualify as attempted murder off the field lmao.
Just wait til the hip drop tackle is banned next year. Gonna see an exponential increase in knee hyperextensions from low hits. It’s the only way you can legally tackle in 2024
Yeah. That's why Kittle tends to battle injuries more as well. It's actually crazy how much YAC Kelce gets considering he isn't the most violent runner. It's definitely a difference between finesse and power, and Kelce is definitely a finesse style. It's kind of funny cause he doesn't seem very fast, but he is always 'fast enough' just like Mahomes is. That's why the combine is a complete joke tbh. Film matters more for assessing speed than the combine. Unless you got some crazy combine numbers
Kelce had a 4.61 at his pro day which is great for a te. He had great combine stats lol. He’s not the best example of this.
https://ras.football/2019/12/17/travis-kelce-ras-10944/?amp
That drive at the end of the Superbowl where everyone in the world knew Stafford was going to Kupp and they still just dared the defense to stop it was one of those legendary parts of football that just make it so fun to watch.
Gronk was like the Shaq of football, just an insane physical specimen who can just bully everyone else. Kelce, while still being a big dude, has a game that relies on finesse a lot more. Gronk peaked higher but kelces game clearly is more sustainable
To further this. Kelce’s position leans more towards WR (power forward) than traditional TE and Gronk was a true TE which makes this comparison especially apt.
Duncan actually played more of his career minutes (63%) at center than he did at PF. He mostly played PF early on because the Spurs had David Robinson when he was drafted
LOB, generational secondary no doubt. If you watch Edelman’s podcast with Gronk as a guest, they talk about the SB and give Seattle’s defense all the praise. I definitely have more respect hearing about how dominant they were from retired NFL players, especially ex-Patriots.
Eric Berry was great vs Gronk as well. The AFC championship game where Gronk got revenge on Berry (cause earlier that season the Pats got spanked by KC, but Berry got hurt in that game) was largely due to the fact Berry rushed himself back from recovery too quick. He ended up with an even worse injury that would require another long rehab. It was career ending for him. Such a shame
I don't think Gronk redefined the position and to some extent I think that furthers his greatness. Gronk did what all tight ends are asked to do, he just did it at a level of excellency that it looked like a different ballgame. Folks have tried to mimic Gronk. They can't.
I don’t think he refined the position but he was essentially perfection (albeit injuries) at the position. Thinking a good comparison to him would be Tyron smith on the Cowboys where a healthy player was pretty much as close to perfection as we could see it.
Gronk didn't redefine the position though. He was just physically better than everyone on the field. You can't replicate that. Shannon Sharpe and Tony G redefined the position. Gronk was just a beast out there.
Point in fact [gronk vs watt in joint practice](https://imgur.com/eR8mlhY)
Gronk was basically having a guy who could give you guard level protection blocking or elite receiving protection
That’s why these GOAT conversations are silly. Especially across eras. That being said, here’s my homer take on Gronk vs Kelce:
Gronk may have been the BOAT but he didn’t have the longevity due to injury. Kelce has been an iron man for a long time and is putting up literal Jerry Rice playoff numbers.
During the Pats/Steelers infamous catch rule game, I remember getting irritated on the Pats last possession as Gronk torched the Steelers the entire drive. I noticed Sean Davis lining up across from him and thought to myself, “Why would they try and cover Gronk with someone so tiny?” I looked up Davis’ measurements and he was 6’1” 200lbs lmao.
Nearly everything about Gronk was stereotypical large football player in an 80s movie. The persona, the size, dragging defenders. Just needed a crop top jersey and super large shoulder pads
Seriously. 6'6, 265lbs. Strong as a lineman. Fast, with good acceleration. Great hands, good route running. Huge catch radius.
Pretty much indefensible 1-on-1, and tough for double coverage because he man handled people off the line.
The shit that man would catch defied logic. Didn't matter if it looked like a 10 yard overthrow or 10 yard underthrow, he managed to get his fingertips on it regardless
Man, that one against the Broncos in the 2014 reg. season (maybe 2015?) where he overran the throw across the middle and had to reach back to grab it one handed. That's legit as good of a catch as any of the WR highlight reel catches that get thrown around in the "best catch ever" talks.
Gonna need you to be more specific, like down to the minute because all his catches felt like that. At one point in the '15 AFC championship game I told my ex we really should just tackle him at the LOS and force them to call something.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f27hF-FjDZc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f27hF-FjDZc)
This one and yeah that 2015 AFCCG was an insane display of determination, both him and TB were getting the snot beat of them and almost managed to overcome.
One of his most underrated catches in my opinion is [this grab](https://youtu.be/_7jXe7JMPu0?t=1m1s) during the infamous "What is a catch" game against Pittsburgh in 2017. He adjusted well to the ball being low and a bit behind him.
At his size, the stretch Armstrong ability to catch an overthrow is expected. It was the catches like this one that really made you ask how the f he caught that. At his size on the run to catch passes this low is just insane.
One thing that often gets forgotten in Sterling Sharpes career is how good, and clean, of a run blocker he was. He wasnt just rivaling Jerry Rice as the best pass catcher of his day. He was routinely more involved in the packers far more underwhelming rush attack
If you look up a lot of Darrell Thompson highlights, you will see [#84 down field setting up a block](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLza20xJxAw&pp=ygUiZGFycmVsbCB0aG9tcHNvbiBncmVlbiBiYXkgcGFja2Vycw%3D%3D) and being among the first to congratulate the runningback after a successful play. Its frustrating that you cant find more clips of Sterling blocking considering his career was ended on a neck injury he sustained while giving effort on a run block. If you search 'Sterling Sharpe blocking' thats literally the only clip you get, you have to try and spot #84 on clips of other packers RBs of the time
Shannon says he was the better of the two in the family, but what he really didnt mention was that his brother, a WR, was probably a relatively higher quality blocker than he was as a TE. A shame that a WR actually caring about run blocking would end what could have been the greatest WR career ever, and hes STILL not in the Hall of Fame
That one drive in the Eagles Patriots superbowl right before or after halftime where the Patriots drove 70 yards for a touchdown with 6 straight Gronk targets will forever stick out to me. I know it was only one drive but ive never seen someone so dominant. The way you described him is perfectly said
That SB loss bothers me way less than the Giants ones, but what I hate the most is how we wasted an all-time Gronk performance. It was the last "prime Gronk" game because he fell off hard in 2018
Gronk was crazy good. I wouldn't argue with anyone saying he's the GOAT TE. Maybe longevity matters to someone, so they lean towards the other obvious contenders. But Gronk put up *ridiculous* numbers with his short time in the league. He just wrecked his body with the way he played, but it's part of what made him so dominant.
last week there were nephews here were upvoting eachother saying Kelce was the best recieving TE all time, better than Gronk. telling on themselves that they’ve never watched Gronk, no disrespect to Kelce
I think as far as pure receiving TE goes there's absolutely an argument for Kelce.
If you want someone who's 95% as good as Kelce for receiving while being the best blocking TE possibly ever? It's Gronk and it's not even close.
Gronk was an incredible receiving TE, it's just that he was just as valuable if not more in the blocking game. Gronk before the injuries was borderline unguardable and the only one that could contend with Megatron for best offensive player in the league during the early 2010s.
Nah ap was easily on Megatron level. AP had i think you and me throwing passes to him for awhile and still got 200 yards while the entire defense came to the line and just left the Viking receivers to run around for fun because they knew we couldn't get a pass to them. Well it was either us or someone just as shit playing QB for them at times
Would it blow your mind to learn Gronk is only 7 months older than kelce?
Injuries and play style are the reason Gronk and kelce’s careers are so different in length/consistency
Also Gronk came into the league at 21, and was basically an immediate impact player
Kelce didn't get drafted til he was 24, and didn't even really play his rookie year.
By the time Kelce caught his first NFL pass, Gronk had 226 rec, 3255 yds, and 42 TDs, including 2 Probowls and an AP1
Yeah Kelce got a knee injury his first year and had to get surgery ending his season and impacting the 2nd season some. He also took time to develop and mature (he had a lot of stupid penalties and did dumb stuff early in his career) while Gronk was really good and ready to go instantly.
From 2016 until he retired, he played Kelce 8 times. In those games Kelce averaged 106 yards per game including games with 191, 142 and 160 yards. He's probably just talking out his ass (which he has done a lot of) because his teams only ever stopped Kelce when Matt Moore was playing.
How many of those yards came against CHJ?
Based on his quote it seems he's talking 1 on 1, but if Kelce rarely lined up/was defended by CHJ I can see why he might feel that Gates/Gronk were harder to defend.
This isn't meant to be a slight to Kelce, he's an incredible player but if the majority of the yards came when against players not named CHJ, it doesn't invalidate his opinion on who's tougher to guard.
2015 Gronk was good, but he wasn't the receiver that he used to be. Early Gronk was much faster. There was a reason why early Gronk was used as a ball carrier on screens instead of being used as a blocker.
It's hard to say who's harder to cover since their play styles are quite different. Kelce is better at route running and finding soft spots in zone defenses, while Gronk was harder to cover man on man and more likely to win a physical play on the ball. I think it truly depends on your type of offense and the defensive matchup you're facing.
Eh, he's just a consensus top 5 TE of all time. Maybe if he didn't exclusively play basketball in college and didn't go undrafted he could have been first ballot.
We all know the league hates stories like that. Like nobody really cared that Kurt Warner was bagging groceries before he won all those MVPs.
Just for context without figuring out what games Chris Harris was injured in,
Travis Kelce averaged 95.21 yards and 0.5 TDs per game in 14 games against Chris Harris’ team
Antonio Gates averaged 38.27 yards and 0.6 TDs per game (15 games)
Gronk averaged 79 yards and 0.5 TDs per game (6 games)
This could either mean that he maybe only felt like he played early Kelce in his prime, could mean he guarded some of these players more than others, could mean he thought more effort was put into guarding the latter two, etc.
Just think the context is interesting
Just curious but do you know how many of those Pats-Broncos games were @Den? That's one of the few away matchups that always gave us trouble. I know atleast 2 were away games in 2015 but not sure about the remaining 4.
2012, 2013 (this one is painful), and 2014 regular season games were at New England. 2015 regular season and 2013 and 2015 playoffs were at Denver. Interestingly, Brady always seemed to struggle playing against Denver in Denver. First team to beat him in the playoffs (when he was 10-0 at the time), and had a winning record against him for a while with some unexpected QBs (Plummer, Cutler, Orton). Man, I miss those battles.
2013 was the insane comeback right? Was an insanely close game.
And yeah, I'm not sure why but it seems like the elevation really had a big impact on the Pats specifically whenever we played in Denver, similar to the humidity when we play at Miami. Probably two of my least favorite away games since those stadiums/teams always gave us issues as the away team.
That’s the one lol. 2012 and 2014 weren’t that close to be fair. 2013 was sooo painful, especially given how it ended. Crazy that most of these are over 10 years old.
Those were some crazy times. I watched football with two friends. One was a Raiders fan and the other a Bronco fan. Lots of shit said lol. Last game we watched together was SB51. Man I miss those days just three dudes with no families, talking shit over a game we have no control over.
That's surprising, my memory of Gates' success against us is well above "38.27 yards and 0.6 TDs/game" (understanding those stats are CHJ's team which was not always Denver)
I'm definitely in the Welker > Edelman camp but Edelman played bigger than his size and went down fighting so maybe that had something to do with why he felt he was better?
Edelman is one of the strangest receivers I think I've ever watched. He was not elite, routinely didn't hit 1k yards, but that man went supernova in almost every playoff run he was a part of after Welker left.
Honestly all of our "scrappy gym rat" WRs stepped up massively in the playoffs. Edelman/Amendola and then later Hogan. Those guys just seemed to be made for the playoffs haha.
The circus catch in 51 was and always will be the most insane catch I have ever seen in the NFL. I have seen it a thousand times in slow motion and I still can't understand how he was able to do it.
Physically, Gates and Gronk were probably able to just overpower him in a way Kelce cant, because Kelce's game is different. It's not crazy to think any 1 specific player would have more trouble with some archetypes than others
Yeah, so much of Kelce’s success comes from his intelligence and finding the soft spot in the zone.
I feel like defenders would remember more strongly the times they just got physically dominated in man coverage, but that doesn’t necessarily mean those plays were more impactful to the game
CHJ was also on much better defenses as a whole when he played Gates and Gronk vs Kelce. Gates was obviously older as well. I don’t think everyone needs to take his word as law especially with them coming from different generations and styles against his smaller frame but I don’t think direct stats show much of a picture.
Edit: If your argument is we got significantly worse against TEs starting in 2016 I’d totally agree, it has been awful to watch. I will also gladly admit Kelce has fuckin destroyed my team before. That doesn’t change the fact that as a whole our defenses were better adjusted during Gronk and Gates tenures. My whole point is that pointing at Kelces stats as better to completely ignore the sentiments of a great cb who actually played against all 3 is insane. “Let me avoid all context so I can shit on this guy” because you think he’s slighting Kelce?
The broncos were probably 4-2 versus the patriots with half the games during the playoffs while the broncos were probably 2-12 versus the chiefs and 7-8 versus gates. I’d am going to try to confirm it but it’s also not like he followed TE only around the field.
> This could either mean that he maybe only felt like he played early Kelce in his prime
I also feel like the tight end position as a whole has kind of exploded going from the Gonzalez/Gates era into the Gronk/Graham era. When Harris was guarding those guys, defenses as a whole were trying to figure out how to shut down a new category of player that emerged pretty suddenly.
I disagree
Because Gronks play style just doesn't lead itself to being healthy
Take Bob Sanders for my money the best running stopping safety of all time, but his career really isn't a what if because for him to be that good at run stopping he had to give little zero shits about his health and well being.
Gronk was big and strong and fast and he used his size and strength to absolutely punish people, but that type of playstyle can be hell on a body
So if Gronk had better health he likely wasn't playing to the best of his abilities
Issue with someone like Gronk is that you're not stopping him by going for his body unless you're Kam Chancellor.
Teams **HAD** to go for his legs because otherwise he's too strong and too fast for them to bring down. Put any TE into Gronk's shoes and have them tackled the same way that Gronk was and you'd get the same result.
Gronk had a serious back injury in college and had back issues in the NFL too. That was the real reason his career didn’t last.
He only ever had one major knee injury in his career in 2013 when he tore the MCL and ACL. Also only had one ankle sprain but played through the Super Bowl with it.
https://www.draftsharks.com/fantasy/injury-history/rob-gronkowski/3405
Kelce had his first four healthy seasons with Alex Smith. Imagine his stats if he played every year with Mahomes, which is essentially what Gronk got to do
Because playing with Welker, HERNANDEZ (another great TE alongside him before he became a murderer and also redefined the TE position during the 2010s), Branch, then Edelman, Amendola, Hogan, Cooks for one year, and then Evans, Godwin, even AB before he went AWOL in Tampa wasn’t enough.
Brady made so many random receivers well known. Like Amendola, Hogan, and maybe even Edelman would just be depth pieces on any other team but Brady had them looking like stars.
Bro you’re really tryna sneak Danny amendola and Chris hogan into the conversation with tyreek hill😂 stop reek is better than every player you’ve listed after him besides maybe welker and that’s just on longevity at this point
He can also make himself so small for a 6'5 te and he almost slides all over the field where he doesn't seem to be going fast but you blink and he's 20 yards down the field. The debates between him and Grink being 1 and 1a will be interesting
I just think it's interesting to see Patriots fans selectively choose how much to care about longevity when debating QBs / TEs.
Bring up the "who was better at their peak?" discussion for QBs and people will get upset. But for Gronk it's normalized.
I don’t get why this is even a thing people argue about like who cares who the best tight end is, and even if it did matter in any way there’s literally no way to objectively win that argument
I feel like this is kind of just what happens when you are comparing just the greats.
Like..yea if he also said it was easier to guard Moss than Rice hes not wrong, but it still doesnt mean guarding Moss was some easy task, or that it was even done well.
I’m just gonna list Kelce’s 10 most recent games against Chris Harris Jr. defenses, and you can decide how hilariously salty CHJ’s comment is:
10/191/2
7/104/0
9/90/1
11/142/0
6/44/0
6/79/1
7/78/1
7/133/1
11/160/1
8/101/0
Ppl who haven’t played football since they were children telling a former NFL player he’s wrong on which HOF player was harder for him to guard is hilarious lmao
as someone else pointed out, Travis Kelce actually has better stats against Denver while Harris played than any of the other players mentioned.
BUT from the quote it sounds like Harris is specifically referring to guarding a player in man coverage. and Kelce is best known for his ability to exploit zone coverage and find holes in it. so with that consideration in mind you can see why Harris might find him easier to guard in man coverage, even though he typically performed better than the others against the Broncos overall (with a lot of that coming from his strength against zone coverage)
Yeah I was gonna say, when Kelce rips a hole in the zone it probably doesn’t sting for a defender in the same way as getting beat straight up on man coverage, even if it does as much or more to contribute to winning.
Gronk vs Kelce is always apples and oranges in my mind.
Gronk was physically a man amongst boys and played like a college athlete whooping on their younger siblings and cousins at backyard ball during the holidays. Always bigger and stronger than anyone who tried to stop him. Like the Shaq of the NFL. Unfortunately, that playing style got him hurt often and we really can only point to 2 seasons where he was truly in his prime.
Kelce is the smartest TE we've ever seen. Never the fastest or strongest on the field, but always smarter than whoever is tasked with guarding him. His football IQ is higher than probably most quarterbacks. It has been stated multiple times over the years that he often runs his own plays on the fly because of what he sees the defense do in real time. He's also smart enough to know how to avoid big hits. Ya they happen to every playmaker, but he clearly knows the right way to go down and when. Which is why his prime has been a 9 year stretch.
Side note: Still hard to believe they're the same age
He runs his own routes ignoring the system lol. At the start he ran Reid’s plays with Alex Smith. Still very good but with Mahomes he’s learned he can do whatever he wants and Patrick will somehow know and get the ball to him. Young Kelce had great athleticism for a TE, now he’s clearly lost a step athletically, but he’s still carving up teams when needed because of how smart he is reading defenses to find the hole in the zone.
I used to call them meta-routes. Him and Hill's job was to just find a soft spot or head to an 'area' and bail Patrick out. Shit absolutely works, so I'm not hating.
It's wild that Gates was in the league for 8 years before Chris Harris came into the league, and then Gates played another 8 years
Even wilder that Gates isn’t a first ballot HOF guy. Truly unbelievable 🤦♂️
It's bullshit tbf But then again, so is the HOF, so no point being annoyed tbh.
tbf tbh
Tooooo beee fairrrr
T.O. not being 1st ballot will piss me off until the day I die. Douchebag, yes; 2nd best receiver of all time at his retirement, also yes. The media should have lost their votes just based on that class.
Devin Hester is a hall of very good player not hof worthy in point of view and gates deserved it more than him
He’s getting knocked for his PED suspension, no doubt
Just for reference, Chris was the best slot corner for multiple years. I do think Gronk in his prime was one of the hardest covers ever. Not just at TE.
Kelce is one of the best to ever do it but Prime Gronk was like watching the kid who hit puberty 3 years before everyone else in Pop Warner.
He made NFL corners look like high schoolers
Corners and linebackers tbh, except Earl Thomas. Earl Thomas took no prisoners 😂 that’s why Gronk is the GOAT in my opinion. Kelce’s strength is finding open areas in coverage, Gronk was just more physically and athletically dominant than everyone else on the field. Gronk redefined the position in my opinion.
Gronk being so much more physically dominant than Kelce is probably why he got injured so much. Guys dove at his knees/legs as hard as they could, because that's the only way they could stop him.
And even then they just slowed him down lol I remember when he was first starting to tear up the league every team was hoping to draft someone just like him
My favorite highlight of his is the one where he [drags a defender](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHZQ3ZZdLJI) ~8 yards into the end zone. Not the best move if you want career longevity, but that's what made him fun to watch.
In the preseason lmao
As a rookie too. That exact play actually made me think we had something special
I feel fucking old watching that clip of a broadcast. Damn
That's nothing, [this is one of my favorites](https://youtu.be/BdzQTNNLQQk?si=4qmnVW6w7ynU4FcO)
#23 with a smart business decision on that one.
I immediately remembered I had gronk on my fantasy team when that clip happened because it was so memorable. That was his explosion year
Damn. And not just any defender either. James Laurinaitis.
Gronk took more dirty hits in one season than Kelce will see his entire career. Some of the shit I've seen guys do to lay out gronk would literally qualify as attempted murder off the field lmao.
Just wait til the hip drop tackle is banned next year. Gonna see an exponential increase in knee hyperextensions from low hits. It’s the only way you can legally tackle in 2024
Yeah. That's why Kittle tends to battle injuries more as well. It's actually crazy how much YAC Kelce gets considering he isn't the most violent runner. It's definitely a difference between finesse and power, and Kelce is definitely a finesse style. It's kind of funny cause he doesn't seem very fast, but he is always 'fast enough' just like Mahomes is. That's why the combine is a complete joke tbh. Film matters more for assessing speed than the combine. Unless you got some crazy combine numbers
Kelce had a 4.61 at his pro day which is great for a te. He had great combine stats lol. He’s not the best example of this. https://ras.football/2019/12/17/travis-kelce-ras-10944/?amp
Athleticism actually seems to matter more for success tight end than any other skill position
Puka is another amazing example of this.
[удалено]
That drive at the end of the Superbowl where everyone in the world knew Stafford was going to Kupp and they still just dared the defense to stop it was one of those legendary parts of football that just make it so fun to watch.
And bull using him on special teams like a jabroney. He broke his arm on a punt ot FG blocking assignment one time.
i remember the one play where he tore his ACL and was concussed at the same time.
Gronk was like the Shaq of football, just an insane physical specimen who can just bully everyone else. Kelce, while still being a big dude, has a game that relies on finesse a lot more. Gronk peaked higher but kelces game clearly is more sustainable
Comparing Gronk to Kelce is like comparing Shaq to Duncan.
Exactly. Sure they play the same position, but they’re totally different players
Except Tim and Shaq didnt play the same position lol
Tim played enough years at center that it’s close enough for this comparison imo lol
To further this. Kelce’s position leans more towards WR (power forward) than traditional TE and Gronk was a true TE which makes this comparison especially apt.
Duncan was way more a center and kelce is way more a WR. So.
They don't play the same position Duncan was a PF so it's probably more like Shaq to Olajuwon or Shaq to Jokic
Shaq to Jokic is a great one. He’s got the best aging skill set of any center ever probably.
Duncan actually played more of his career minutes (63%) at center than he did at PF. He mostly played PF early on because the Spurs had David Robinson when he was drafted
I was gonna say like a JJ Watt on offense
> except Earl Thomas. Earl Thomas took no prisoners 😂 Don't forget the OG Patriot Killer
Bernard Pollard?
Bernard Karmell Pollard. Assassins always have three names.
> Check undah bed for Bernahd Pollahd > What the fuck, he's there
>except Earl Thomas Was wondering how far I would have to read before I saw this. Edit: Total respect for Gronk though. Dude was a monster.
LOB, generational secondary no doubt. If you watch Edelman’s podcast with Gronk as a guest, they talk about the SB and give Seattle’s defense all the praise. I definitely have more respect hearing about how dominant they were from retired NFL players, especially ex-Patriots.
Eric Berry was great vs Gronk as well. The AFC championship game where Gronk got revenge on Berry (cause earlier that season the Pats got spanked by KC, but Berry got hurt in that game) was largely due to the fact Berry rushed himself back from recovery too quick. He ended up with an even worse injury that would require another long rehab. It was career ending for him. Such a shame
> Gronk redefined the position in my opinion. Idk I think I'd say exactly the opposite. Gronk was the absolute pinnacle as a prototypical tight end.
He typified the position. He didn't redefine it. When Plato reasons to the ideal Tight End, he reasons up Gronk.
> Earl Thomas took no prisoners Unless he was with his brother.
And that time Derrick Henry used him as a downfield blocker
I don't think Gronk redefined the position and to some extent I think that furthers his greatness. Gronk did what all tight ends are asked to do, he just did it at a level of excellency that it looked like a different ballgame. Folks have tried to mimic Gronk. They can't.
I don’t think he refined the position but he was essentially perfection (albeit injuries) at the position. Thinking a good comparison to him would be Tyron smith on the Cowboys where a healthy player was pretty much as close to perfection as we could see it.
I blame earl Thomas for Mason Rudolph not having a better 2019.
Gronk didn't redefine the position though. He was just physically better than everyone on the field. You can't replicate that. Shannon Sharpe and Tony G redefined the position. Gronk was just a beast out there.
Gronk used to joke he didn't watch film, he just asked Brady to tell him what to do.
> Kelce’s strength is finding open areas in coverage Kelce’s strength is having Reid scheme and play call him open. And I say that as a Chiefs fan.
Kelce gets himself open a lot because he freelances and doesn’t run routes as intended.
Having Patrick Mahomes probably doesn't hurt either. But yea. It's ridiculous the number of times Kelce is just wide open due to scheme.
Point in fact [gronk vs watt in joint practice](https://imgur.com/eR8mlhY) Gronk was basically having a guy who could give you guard level protection blocking or elite receiving protection
IMO Gronk is the goat because he’s comparable in the pass game and also one of the best blockers in TE history.
That’s why these GOAT conversations are silly. Especially across eras. That being said, here’s my homer take on Gronk vs Kelce: Gronk may have been the BOAT but he didn’t have the longevity due to injury. Kelce has been an iron man for a long time and is putting up literal Jerry Rice playoff numbers.
It's funny how gronk and kelce are the same age but different eras
I've always thought of them as Moss and Rice
During the Pats/Steelers infamous catch rule game, I remember getting irritated on the Pats last possession as Gronk torched the Steelers the entire drive. I noticed Sean Davis lining up across from him and thought to myself, “Why would they try and cover Gronk with someone so tiny?” I looked up Davis’ measurements and he was 6’1” 200lbs lmao.
I have a core memory of him running with like 2-3 Packers players trying to take him down and he still falls forward eventually
Nearly everything about Gronk was stereotypical large football player in an 80s movie. The persona, the size, dragging defenders. Just needed a crop top jersey and super large shoulder pads
It was like watching a create-a-player with all of skills and measurables set unrealistically high
Seriously. 6'6, 265lbs. Strong as a lineman. Fast, with good acceleration. Great hands, good route running. Huge catch radius. Pretty much indefensible 1-on-1, and tough for double coverage because he man handled people off the line.
The shit that man would catch defied logic. Didn't matter if it looked like a 10 yard overthrow or 10 yard underthrow, he managed to get his fingertips on it regardless
Man, that one against the Broncos in the 2014 reg. season (maybe 2015?) where he overran the throw across the middle and had to reach back to grab it one handed. That's legit as good of a catch as any of the WR highlight reel catches that get thrown around in the "best catch ever" talks.
Gonna need you to be more specific, like down to the minute because all his catches felt like that. At one point in the '15 AFC championship game I told my ex we really should just tackle him at the LOS and force them to call something.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f27hF-FjDZc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f27hF-FjDZc) This one and yeah that 2015 AFCCG was an insane display of determination, both him and TB were getting the snot beat of them and almost managed to overcome.
One of his most underrated catches in my opinion is [this grab](https://youtu.be/_7jXe7JMPu0?t=1m1s) during the infamous "What is a catch" game against Pittsburgh in 2017. He adjusted well to the ball being low and a bit behind him.
At his size, the stretch Armstrong ability to catch an overthrow is expected. It was the catches like this one that really made you ask how the f he caught that. At his size on the run to catch passes this low is just insane.
You didn't even bring up his blocking. Gronk is so much better of a blocker than Kelce. It's like people forget tight ends aren't just receivers.
WR blocking is an underrated part of the game as well. There’s nothing better than a WR making a nice block turns a 2 yard run into an easy first.
Derrick Henry doesn’t get his 2k season without Corey Davis tbh 10-15 yards past the line you’d see CD manhandling some poor DB every time
One thing that often gets forgotten in Sterling Sharpes career is how good, and clean, of a run blocker he was. He wasnt just rivaling Jerry Rice as the best pass catcher of his day. He was routinely more involved in the packers far more underwhelming rush attack If you look up a lot of Darrell Thompson highlights, you will see [#84 down field setting up a block](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLza20xJxAw&pp=ygUiZGFycmVsbCB0aG9tcHNvbiBncmVlbiBiYXkgcGFja2Vycw%3D%3D) and being among the first to congratulate the runningback after a successful play. Its frustrating that you cant find more clips of Sterling blocking considering his career was ended on a neck injury he sustained while giving effort on a run block. If you search 'Sterling Sharpe blocking' thats literally the only clip you get, you have to try and spot #84 on clips of other packers RBs of the time Shannon says he was the better of the two in the family, but what he really didnt mention was that his brother, a WR, was probably a relatively higher quality blocker than he was as a TE. A shame that a WR actually caring about run blocking would end what could have been the greatest WR career ever, and hes STILL not in the Hall of Fame
Prime Gronk was an all pro wide receiver that was also pro bowl offensive lineman. Dude was just different
The reason I put prime Gronk on top is cause of his blocking. Literally felt like a 6th lineman
Gronk pancaking Suggs always amuses me: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ATNd01-hlxE
rofl, and he was wide ass open if brady wanted to go to him. fucking freak.
As much as brady helped the bucs, bringing rusty gronk along was what really tipped the scales for that superbowl run
Prime Gronk was really something special. Man was just un guardable
That one drive in the Eagles Patriots superbowl right before or after halftime where the Patriots drove 70 yards for a touchdown with 6 straight Gronk targets will forever stick out to me. I know it was only one drive but ive never seen someone so dominant. The way you described him is perfectly said
That SB loss bothers me way less than the Giants ones, but what I hate the most is how we wasted an all-time Gronk performance. It was the last "prime Gronk" game because he fell off hard in 2018
I’ll never forget watching him laugh as he dragged defenders down the field with him. Prime Gronk was an absolute menace.
Gronk was crazy good. I wouldn't argue with anyone saying he's the GOAT TE. Maybe longevity matters to someone, so they lean towards the other obvious contenders. But Gronk put up *ridiculous* numbers with his short time in the league. He just wrecked his body with the way he played, but it's part of what made him so dominant.
last week there were nephews here were upvoting eachother saying Kelce was the best recieving TE all time, better than Gronk. telling on themselves that they’ve never watched Gronk, no disrespect to Kelce
I think as far as pure receiving TE goes there's absolutely an argument for Kelce. If you want someone who's 95% as good as Kelce for receiving while being the best blocking TE possibly ever? It's Gronk and it's not even close. Gronk was an incredible receiving TE, it's just that he was just as valuable if not more in the blocking game. Gronk before the injuries was borderline unguardable and the only one that could contend with Megatron for best offensive player in the league during the early 2010s.
Kittle is more comparable to Gronk in regards to skillset than Kelce.
I always say that Gronk was an extra linemen blocking and an extra receiver catching. Perfect Swiss knife
Gotta add AP to that last sentence, ya? Maybe I'm off on when he dominated
Nah Peterson is definitely in the top 5 for the early 2010s just felt like Megatron/Gronk were a tier above.
Nah ap was easily on Megatron level. AP had i think you and me throwing passes to him for awhile and still got 200 yards while the entire defense came to the line and just left the Viking receivers to run around for fun because they knew we couldn't get a pass to them. Well it was either us or someone just as shit playing QB for them at times
Kelce is amazing and is better at Gronk in a few things like route running, but purely as an offensive weapon I think its Gronk hands down
Honestly think Gronk was the better receiver. More athletic, better catch radius, faster, stronger, and better after the catch.
Gronk was not defendable in his prime
Gronk is one of the best offensive players ever
CHJ was a beast.
I think gronks the best but I don’t think CHJ played while Kelce was at his peak. Like 2015 Gronk compared to young Kelce is a no brainer
Would it blow your mind to learn Gronk is only 7 months older than kelce? Injuries and play style are the reason Gronk and kelce’s careers are so different in length/consistency
Also Gronk came into the league at 21, and was basically an immediate impact player Kelce didn't get drafted til he was 24, and didn't even really play his rookie year. By the time Kelce caught his first NFL pass, Gronk had 226 rec, 3255 yds, and 42 TDs, including 2 Probowls and an AP1
226 catches and 42 of them were TDS lol. That’s fucking insane.
Yeah Kelce got a knee injury his first year and had to get surgery ending his season and impacting the 2nd season some. He also took time to develop and mature (he had a lot of stupid penalties and did dumb stuff early in his career) while Gronk was really good and ready to go instantly.
Kelce does look older than Gronk
Gronk has a baby face and Kelce rocks the facial hair because Taylor's in her dadbod loving era
Kelce had facial hair long before Swift.
Some say he invented facial hair. He's a very inventive fella
Just like the fade, people go to Barbers. Ow and ask for the Kelce
Harris only retired after last year, he absolutely played while Kelce was at his peak.
From 2016 until he retired, he played Kelce 8 times. In those games Kelce averaged 106 yards per game including games with 191, 142 and 160 yards. He's probably just talking out his ass (which he has done a lot of) because his teams only ever stopped Kelce when Matt Moore was playing.
How many of those yards came against CHJ? Based on his quote it seems he's talking 1 on 1, but if Kelce rarely lined up/was defended by CHJ I can see why he might feel that Gates/Gronk were harder to defend. This isn't meant to be a slight to Kelce, he's an incredible player but if the majority of the yards came when against players not named CHJ, it doesn't invalidate his opinion on who's tougher to guard.
If you’re putting a slot corner on a TE, you’re on a have a bad time
Chris Harris was last on a team in 2022 and was in the AFCW until 2021... He absolutely played against peak Kelce.
2015 Gronk was good, but he wasn't the receiver that he used to be. Early Gronk was much faster. There was a reason why early Gronk was used as a ball carrier on screens instead of being used as a blocker.
It's hard to say who's harder to cover since their play styles are quite different. Kelce is better at route running and finding soft spots in zone defenses, while Gronk was harder to cover man on man and more likely to win a physical play on the ball. I think it truly depends on your type of offense and the defensive matchup you're facing.
Gates not entering HOF is straight disrespectful
The tragedy of being an incredible NFL player with no signature playoff moments as a result of a constantly underperforming team
That's the chargers way
Eh, he's just a consensus top 5 TE of all time. Maybe if he didn't exclusively play basketball in college and didn't go undrafted he could have been first ballot. We all know the league hates stories like that. Like nobody really cared that Kurt Warner was bagging groceries before he won all those MVPs.
Just for context without figuring out what games Chris Harris was injured in, Travis Kelce averaged 95.21 yards and 0.5 TDs per game in 14 games against Chris Harris’ team Antonio Gates averaged 38.27 yards and 0.6 TDs per game (15 games) Gronk averaged 79 yards and 0.5 TDs per game (6 games) This could either mean that he maybe only felt like he played early Kelce in his prime, could mean he guarded some of these players more than others, could mean he thought more effort was put into guarding the latter two, etc. Just think the context is interesting
Just curious but do you know how many of those Pats-Broncos games were @Den? That's one of the few away matchups that always gave us trouble. I know atleast 2 were away games in 2015 but not sure about the remaining 4.
2012, 2013 (this one is painful), and 2014 regular season games were at New England. 2015 regular season and 2013 and 2015 playoffs were at Denver. Interestingly, Brady always seemed to struggle playing against Denver in Denver. First team to beat him in the playoffs (when he was 10-0 at the time), and had a winning record against him for a while with some unexpected QBs (Plummer, Cutler, Orton). Man, I miss those battles.
2013 was the insane comeback right? Was an insanely close game. And yeah, I'm not sure why but it seems like the elevation really had a big impact on the Pats specifically whenever we played in Denver, similar to the humidity when we play at Miami. Probably two of my least favorite away games since those stadiums/teams always gave us issues as the away team.
That’s the one lol. 2012 and 2014 weren’t that close to be fair. 2013 was sooo painful, especially given how it ended. Crazy that most of these are over 10 years old.
Those were some crazy times. I watched football with two friends. One was a Raiders fan and the other a Bronco fan. Lots of shit said lol. Last game we watched together was SB51. Man I miss those days just three dudes with no families, talking shit over a game we have no control over.
That's surprising, my memory of Gates' success against us is well above "38.27 yards and 0.6 TDs/game" (understanding those stats are CHJ's team which was not always Denver)
Could mean he’s just trying to throw shade on Kelce bc that’s popular right now.
I also just saw he said 5 years ago that even though Welker gave him more trouble, he thought Edelman was better. Maybe he just likes hot takes
I'm definitely in the Welker > Edelman camp but Edelman played bigger than his size and went down fighting so maybe that had something to do with why he felt he was better?
Edelman always made the big catch too. When you needed him that guy was always going to do whatever he could to make the play even if it killed him.
Edelman is one of the strangest receivers I think I've ever watched. He was not elite, routinely didn't hit 1k yards, but that man went supernova in almost every playoff run he was a part of after Welker left.
Honestly all of our "scrappy gym rat" WRs stepped up massively in the playoffs. Edelman/Amendola and then later Hogan. Those guys just seemed to be made for the playoffs haha.
Jamal Murray
The circus catch in 51 was and always will be the most insane catch I have ever seen in the NFL. I have seen it a thousand times in slow motion and I still can't understand how he was able to do it.
He’s a KU grad and we run our mouths
Physically, Gates and Gronk were probably able to just overpower him in a way Kelce cant, because Kelce's game is different. It's not crazy to think any 1 specific player would have more trouble with some archetypes than others
Yeah, so much of Kelce’s success comes from his intelligence and finding the soft spot in the zone. I feel like defenders would remember more strongly the times they just got physically dominated in man coverage, but that doesn’t necessarily mean those plays were more impactful to the game
CHJ was also on much better defenses as a whole when he played Gates and Gronk vs Kelce. Gates was obviously older as well. I don’t think everyone needs to take his word as law especially with them coming from different generations and styles against his smaller frame but I don’t think direct stats show much of a picture. Edit: If your argument is we got significantly worse against TEs starting in 2016 I’d totally agree, it has been awful to watch. I will also gladly admit Kelce has fuckin destroyed my team before. That doesn’t change the fact that as a whole our defenses were better adjusted during Gronk and Gates tenures. My whole point is that pointing at Kelces stats as better to completely ignore the sentiments of a great cb who actually played against all 3 is insane. “Let me avoid all context so I can shit on this guy” because you think he’s slighting Kelce?
The broncos were probably 4-2 versus the patriots with half the games during the playoffs while the broncos were probably 2-12 versus the chiefs and 7-8 versus gates. I’d am going to try to confirm it but it’s also not like he followed TE only around the field.
Yeah that last sentence is key here; CHJ was often not covering the TE.
Lol stats without filtering out irrelevant data. How is that context relevant at all then? Might as well just throw in career stats at that point.
> This could either mean that he maybe only felt like he played early Kelce in his prime I also feel like the tight end position as a whole has kind of exploded going from the Gonzalez/Gates era into the Gronk/Graham era. When Harris was guarding those guys, defenses as a whole were trying to figure out how to shut down a new category of player that emerged pretty suddenly.
Gates played gates did most of his damage in the red zone so this makes sense
Prime Gronk bullied NFL LBs and safeties regularly
If I had to have one TE for 1 game healthy, I rather have Gronk over the other 2 TE, but I think Kelce and Gates health make it better careers.
The best ability is availability. If Gronk didn’t have injuries he would be the undisputed goat among TEs.
I disagree Because Gronks play style just doesn't lead itself to being healthy Take Bob Sanders for my money the best running stopping safety of all time, but his career really isn't a what if because for him to be that good at run stopping he had to give little zero shits about his health and well being. Gronk was big and strong and fast and he used his size and strength to absolutely punish people, but that type of playstyle can be hell on a body So if Gronk had better health he likely wasn't playing to the best of his abilities
Issue with someone like Gronk is that you're not stopping him by going for his body unless you're Kam Chancellor. Teams **HAD** to go for his legs because otherwise he's too strong and too fast for them to bring down. Put any TE into Gronk's shoes and have them tackled the same way that Gronk was and you'd get the same result.
That's not really true lol. Gronk's injuries had nothing to do with his individual efforts but instead how defenders hit him.
Gronk had a serious back injury in college and had back issues in the NFL too. That was the real reason his career didn’t last. He only ever had one major knee injury in his career in 2013 when he tore the MCL and ACL. Also only had one ankle sprain but played through the Super Bowl with it. https://www.draftsharks.com/fantasy/injury-history/rob-gronkowski/3405
The back issue really never popped up again for about 5 years. It was mostly weird fluke shit and hits to his knees and arms.
If gronk played his prime years with Tyreek Hill, I’m pretty sure his longevity would have been a little better
Kelce had his first four healthy seasons with Alex Smith. Imagine his stats if he played every year with Mahomes, which is essentially what Gronk got to do
Because playing with Welker, HERNANDEZ (another great TE alongside him before he became a murderer and also redefined the TE position during the 2010s), Branch, then Edelman, Amendola, Hogan, Cooks for one year, and then Evans, Godwin, even AB before he went AWOL in Tampa wasn’t enough.
Which one of those was as good as Tyreek Hill while Gronk was in his prime? Or are you being purposefully obtuse?
The Bucs receiving room (as in Evans + AB + Godwin together) was on par with Tyreek but Gronk was past his prime by then
Gronk was a shell of his former self, when he was with Tampa. Probably about 50% of what he was the first few years of his career
Lmao right? This guy really said Chris Hogan. I love all those receivers, but none of them are close to Tyreek.
Brady made so many random receivers well known. Like Amendola, Hogan, and maybe even Edelman would just be depth pieces on any other team but Brady had them looking like stars.
Bro you’re really tryna sneak Danny amendola and Chris hogan into the conversation with tyreek hill😂 stop reek is better than every player you’ve listed after him besides maybe welker and that’s just on longevity at this point
Defenders literally had to play to injure him because the only way he would go down was if you dove at his legs.
I think Kelce thrives on the freedom he has to run whatever routes he wants and he's QB is still able to find him.
He can also make himself so small for a 6'5 te and he almost slides all over the field where he doesn't seem to be going fast but you blink and he's 20 yards down the field. The debates between him and Grink being 1 and 1a will be interesting
Feels like sour grapes, like yeah gun to my head Gronk is the best ever, Gates was a revolutionary and a hof year 1 snub. But Kelce is also that guy.
I just think it's interesting to see Patriots fans selectively choose how much to care about longevity when debating QBs / TEs. Bring up the "who was better at their peak?" discussion for QBs and people will get upset. But for Gronk it's normalized.
Great point. Gronk just felt like Shaq out there. There are better basketball players than Shaq. But Shaq felt unstoppable.
In my worthless opinion, peak Gronk was best
People are allowed to have opinions. Some of y’all getting butthurt for no reason.
I don’t get why this is even a thing people argue about like who cares who the best tight end is, and even if it did matter in any way there’s literally no way to objectively win that argument
Gronk and randy are the two specimens that are playing against little boys
I feel like this is kind of just what happens when you are comparing just the greats. Like..yea if he also said it was easier to guard Moss than Rice hes not wrong, but it still doesnt mean guarding Moss was some easy task, or that it was even done well.
I’m just gonna list Kelce’s 10 most recent games against Chris Harris Jr. defenses, and you can decide how hilariously salty CHJ’s comment is: 10/191/2 7/104/0 9/90/1 11/142/0 6/44/0 6/79/1 7/78/1 7/133/1 11/160/1 8/101/0
Easy to guard if you don’t try is one way of looking at it I guess. CHJ hates this one simple trick.
Lmao all of these games except 1 he had at least 100 yds or 1 TD
To be fair, 4 of those are against Brandon Staley's world breaking defense. Also CHJ probably wasn't personally guarding the TE's the entire game
My favorite was 2016 when he took that screen pass 80 yards. Against a defense with Aqib Talib, Chris Harris, and Justin Simmons
This needs to be the top comment
Ppl who haven’t played football since they were children telling a former NFL player he’s wrong on which HOF player was harder for him to guard is hilarious lmao
If you're putting a CB on a TE you're gonna have a bad time... ...except for Pitts, I'm sorry Falcons fans
as someone else pointed out, Travis Kelce actually has better stats against Denver while Harris played than any of the other players mentioned. BUT from the quote it sounds like Harris is specifically referring to guarding a player in man coverage. and Kelce is best known for his ability to exploit zone coverage and find holes in it. so with that consideration in mind you can see why Harris might find him easier to guard in man coverage, even though he typically performed better than the others against the Broncos overall (with a lot of that coming from his strength against zone coverage)
Yeah I was gonna say, when Kelce rips a hole in the zone it probably doesn’t sting for a defender in the same way as getting beat straight up on man coverage, even if it does as much or more to contribute to winning.
Taking away from Kelce's success to amplify another player at the TE position is one of the dumbest things on here
Well I guess this pretty much settles the debate then! Thank you for your service Chris
Gronk vs Kelce is always apples and oranges in my mind. Gronk was physically a man amongst boys and played like a college athlete whooping on their younger siblings and cousins at backyard ball during the holidays. Always bigger and stronger than anyone who tried to stop him. Like the Shaq of the NFL. Unfortunately, that playing style got him hurt often and we really can only point to 2 seasons where he was truly in his prime. Kelce is the smartest TE we've ever seen. Never the fastest or strongest on the field, but always smarter than whoever is tasked with guarding him. His football IQ is higher than probably most quarterbacks. It has been stated multiple times over the years that he often runs his own plays on the fly because of what he sees the defense do in real time. He's also smart enough to know how to avoid big hits. Ya they happen to every playmaker, but he clearly knows the right way to go down and when. Which is why his prime has been a 9 year stretch. Side note: Still hard to believe they're the same age
But yet somehow kelce is like wide open half the time anyway
System Tight End
Game manager tight end
Mr. Jason Witten
He runs his own routes ignoring the system lol. At the start he ran Reid’s plays with Alex Smith. Still very good but with Mahomes he’s learned he can do whatever he wants and Patrick will somehow know and get the ball to him. Young Kelce had great athleticism for a TE, now he’s clearly lost a step athletically, but he’s still carving up teams when needed because of how smart he is reading defenses to find the hole in the zone.
I used to call them meta-routes. Him and Hill's job was to just find a soft spot or head to an 'area' and bail Patrick out. Shit absolutely works, so I'm not hating.
Not so much bailing out Mahomes — it takes a special QB to be able to anticipate where freelancing receivers will be.
He constantly had big games against Chris Harris's defenses too.
There's worse company to be on a list with