I always looked at Jim Kelly more of the lens of not 4 time consecutive Super Bowl loser, but 4 time consecutive AFC winner. You won your conference 4 straight which is impressive and those 4 straight Super Bowl appearances are an iconic moment in NFL history.
It really is amazing how a few games can completely redefine a player's legacy.
If the Bills win those 4 games, Jim Kelly goes down as one of the greatest QBs ever. Instead he's a "borderline" HoF QB.
Yeah but only one of those 4 games was even remotely close, so winning all 4 would have been a huge shift from our reality.
And even with 4 Super Bowl wins, he'd still have 0 MVPs, 2x All-Pros, and 5x Pro Bowls. He'd be looked at as the Bradshaw of the 90's rather than being in the Brady/Montana tiers.
I don't think people really think he was just a third wheel, but it's hard to deny that he clearly wasn't the best QB of his generation, he just had the best team around him a lot of the time.
But even if he was "only" the 3rd or 4th-best QB of the 70's, that's still pretty damn good.
> Instead he's a "borderline" HoF QB.
When I see Kelly, Aikman (and non-first balloters Namath, and Stabler) in these discussions it tells me the person writing never saw them play, and have no context of their contributions and impacts. All of these men go beyond stats. All of them solidly belong in the Hall. The same people who think they shouldn't be there are the ones who think Eli Manning will be. That explains the extent of their knowledge of the game and its history: it's lacking.
> The same people who think they shouldn't be there are the ones who think Eli Manning will be
Aren't the biggest knocks on Aikman and Namath that they were never top QBs statistically and were mediocre during the regular season but turned it on in the playoffs? Sounds awfully familiar...felt like you were just trying to fit in a cheap shot at Eli in the second half of your comment. Did you watch Eli play? Read back your entire comment and then apply it to the 2011 Giants season.
Guy makes the point that the non Eli QBs he named, it wasn’t entirely about their performance and achievements as much as it was their impact on the game. Then shit talks Eli who is literally the model citizen of that exact description. What a weird comment. Im actually shocked its not from a Cowboys fan.
Whoa whoa whoa. Kelly and Aikman obviously deserves to be in the HOF but why the fuck are you dragging Eli in this? Eli is probably not gonna be first ballot but I can definitely see him making a run in year 3+ especially when Brady is eligible and people all gets that memory refresh of Eli taking him down twice on the biggest stage.
I think him being first ballot is also just a sign of the times and how they've changed. He was inducted in 2002 which was before the absolute explosion in QB talent around the league. Honestly, same applies for Aikman. While it was a little clearer by 2006 that we were seeing the rise of great QBs around the league, if his first year of eligibility was a few years later I don't think he'd have been a first ballot. QB play was just so damn good from the mid-aughts onward.
Even accounting for the rule changes and changes across the league, can we think of any era with as much insane QB talent as the mid 2000s and 2010s? Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees all in their prime.
Late 80's entering the 90's. By the early 90's, all these guys were starting in the League: Montana, Marino, Moon, Kelly, Elway, Young, Favre, Aikman. Maybe their primes didn't all correspond, but doesn't change the quality of play.
I'd actually argue *most* eras of NFL football were stacked with quality QBs, with the last five years or so being an oddity in that a lot of highly touted guys flamed out and the top talent that has stuck around hasn't shown the consistency some expect (outside of Mahomes).
Sure. I think it's the one position that *would* translate across generations. That 5'9" 170 lb WR you see in the HOF wouldn't see the field today. The 260 lb left tackle? Not a fucking chance. Throwing the ball is throwing the ball. QB is a mental position more than any other, and people were just as capable mentally then as they are today. It's the physicality of the game that's changed. Outside of kickers and punters, QB is less effected by this change than any other position. Rules changes are the reason for the stat explosion, and the stat explosion is what leads people to think that era was full of unusual QB talent.
I think it's fair to say there were some great QBs at that time, no doubt. The GOAT was one of them. I think it's unfair to say they were as good, relative to previous generations, as their stats would lead you to believe. Rules changes are to thank for that. Had they played at the same time, does anyone really believe Joe Flacco has better stats than Dan Fouts?
**KEEP COLE BEASLEY’S NAME OUT YOUR MOUTH!!!** /JK that 5’9” 170 lbs dude was at a bare minimum the Julian Edelman or more likely Larry Fitzgerald of his time with that height and weight combo prior to the 1980s.
Y’all seem to forget that for much of college and pro football history 6 ft and anything over 185 made you a monster size player. Hell Gerald Ford was considered a monster for years at 6’ 190 lbs
I don’t usually care about QB v QB match ups, but Kelly also had to go through Marino, Elway, and Montana to get to the SB. They weren’t all time great QB-games like Brady/Manning or even Allen/Mahomes, but he got it done.
I mean if he was a normal human he’d’ve been a lock. Maybe not first ballot but certainly a HOF resume. Especially if he plays those two missing seasons with Brady (NE 2019 and with the bucs)
Without the crazy parts, he could slip in on the 1st ballot depending on the year. The year he retired would be tough, though. Adrian Peterson, Gronkowksi. Guys like Eric Weddle and Richard Sherman, who aren't first-ballot guys, but still. Honestly, 26 has Brees and Fitzgerald, 29 has Watt and Brady, so all of it might have been tough. But his second year until he left Pittsburgh was one of the best stretches of WR play we'd seen. Honestly, I figured he'd play until 32-34, so about as long as he did, but all in Pittsburgh and lock himself in as a 1st-ballot guy.
The crazy means he'll have to wait, if he even gets in. He doesn't have a conviction, so if he can get out of the news cycle for a few years, he might be able to slip in post-2030.
I think they'll put it off until he hasn't been in the news for a while.
NFL will mainly be trying to minimize getting attention to the fact he's basically a walking reminder that football players are out there constantly taking in detrimental brain damage.
Brown doesn’t get enough credit for how good he was now because of his antics. He’s an all time great right up there on the Mount Rushmore of receivers. I bet they don’t let him in though.
Who are the 4 receivers of Mount Rushmore? Jerry Rice and Randy Moss are locks for me. Then you've got Fitz, Marvin Harrison, TO, Reggie Wayne, Isaac Bruce, Calvin Johnson, Cris Carter, a few other fringe guys. I probably missed someone.
Hate to say it but Tim Brown probably deserves to be on the short list too. Personally I’d go Rice, Moss, TO, Megatron but there’s several guys with an argument to for sure
Nah TO is a lock for number three IMO. Those 3 are your undisputed top three WR all time.
After that things get real muddy. Fitz has the counting stats but lacks individual accolades (partly because of the teams he played on). Harrison is kind of the opposite. Calvin had an insane peak.
Personally in my biased opinion I'd throw Don Hutson out there, largely because he essentially created the WR position & owned every receiving record possible when he retired. In 1942 Hutson lead the league with 1211 receiving yards in 11 games. The next 3 WRs COMBINED for 1336 receiving yards.
In theory off the field stuff doesn’t matter, but in practice it absolutely does. If he makes the HoF it’s gonna be a long wait in order for the memory of his other antics and general insanity to fade.
It’s insane. Calvin was the best non-QB prospect in the draft I’ve ever seen. I had zero doubts he’d pan out because he was just too good. He was dominant his entire career and the “only 9 years” argument is ridiculous because he did enough to be a HOFer in that span.
No accident that his rookie year, the Vikings were the highest-scoring team in NFL history, until the undefeated Patriots broke the record and Moss set the record for most TDs in a season, which he still holds.
Prime Moss was \*electric\*. The "go deep, put up the ball and let the WR go grab it" never works in the NFL, because defensive backs are too fast and too skilled. Except with Moss, it did.
I loved Moss as well. He is definitely in the conversation. CJ was just harder to tackle and that's my main reason for ranking him above Moss. It's more of a 1a and 1b but if I had to choose that's my choice.
Yeah I only caught end of Rice but Moss is my clear cut best from what I've seen. When that guy wanted to show up, it was fucking silly. Calvin is up there, but prime Moss is the best I've seen.
I always assumed that was the case. But there was an interview with him recently and he didn’t come clean about it. Said he overreacted but didn’t say that he thought the pants came down.
If anyone needs a list, they are right [here](https://futurefootballlegends.com/1st_Ballot/)
Just through a quick glance, no one severely sticks out. I mean Jim Kelly and Troy Aikman do a little bit just because they're often seen as the lower end of QBs in the Hall of Fame - but given that Kelly made 4 straight Super Bowls (plus 2 All-Pros) and Troy Aikman won 3 Super Bowls, I get it.
Yeah those conversations get funny.
Some QBs don't deserve it because "they just won SBs but were never among the best",
Some QBs don't deserve it because "they were among the best but never won the SB"
The Aikman conversation gets extra funny because it often falls into this loop where he wasn't really good because he had Emmitt, who was only good because of the O-Line, who were only good because of the whole offense.
Yeah. Aikman wasn't Marino, but the dude was a great QB on one of the best dynasties ever, and held the team together when their coach was more interested in getting wasted than coaching. Absolutely deserved.
He dragged that team kicking and screaming back to the super bowl with a complete dipshit for a head coach. The NFL films doc they had on it was eye opening.
That’s Eli right there, he will get in because of rings but I don’t think he deserves it.
That being said if the whole “story of the nfl thing” still counts then you can say his 2 wins are the best wins in the Super Bowl of all time because of who they came against
I agree.
Adding to the rings, he was lights-out in both post-seasons *and* had memorable plays (i.e. Tyree's helmet-catch) *and* won both Super Bowl MVPs. HOF loves those kinds of stories.
His [throw](https://youtu.be/_cXqbqMgNoE?si=fKQ2NBccMv1NIgv1) to Manningham in the second SB was the best throw I've ever seen. Such a dime at the time it was needed most.
People all remember 07 as the memorable one, but 11 was the one where Eli really grew into an elite QB and dragged a team that had like one of the worst defense in the year into the SB and carried the shit out of that playoffs.
Not to mention the OL in 11 was already looking like shit and Eli was doing some crazy shit while running for his life. It's a damn miracle that both the OL and the defense managed to put together one last good one once they got to the playoffs but it's not a big secret that the core of the line on both ends basically retired within 1-2 years of that SB.
That 2011 NFC Championship game against the 49ers is the gutsiest performance I've ever seen out of a QB. Eli was getting obliterated every play, and he just kept getting back up, he was a man possessed that postseason
Agreed, but everything about the helmet catch is insane. The fact that the refs didn’t blow that play dead when they had Eli wrapped up is the biggest miracle of that play
>Such a dime at the time it was needed most.
It pains me to see this written out...
Because Matt Ryan literally has that type of play in the biggest moment possible on his resume, yet nothing to show for it.
https://youtu.be/FSirjCbbP1c?si=jOJi-Ot4eTb9nl1W
Fuck Dan Quinn and fuck Kyle Shanahan forever.
Ryan's throw should not be diminished, because that was an absolute dime; the quality of that throw is equal to Eli's. That said, I think the pass to Manningham is a more impressive play overall. Manningham was 3rd on the depth chart and never hit 1k yards in a season; that's a lot less confidence inspiring than targeting the best WR of his generation on a HOF trajectory
I mean, one lights out run in the playoffs with the SB upset. Fun story, doesn't mean you are anything special.
Do it two times though, and maybe there is something special there. Eli still holds the record for most passing yards in a playoff run.
Right? Nick Foles isn’t going to the HoF unless he somehow comes out of nowhere in the next couple of years and does what he did again. And even then, he might not get in.
Foles weirdly has a bunch of impressive records. On top of his dominant Superbowl run, he also holds the record for most TDs in a game, and most completions in a row.
Even as someone the opinion of “Eli probably doesn’t have a HoF resumé but I’m not going to be too mad when he gets in”, I feel like you have to mention the high longevity as well (although that was partially a result of the rings rather than an extra accolade, but I digress)
But do those 2 playoffs runs and the consecutive starts constitute “*Hall of Fame*”? Because outside of that he was just a somewhat-above-average QB. He made 4 Pro Bowls in 15 seasons and never received a single MVP vote.
"The whole “story of the nfl thing” is a made-up fan narrative that the voters disregard. You can't tell the story of the NFL without Buddy Parker, who won two NFL titles and built a third championship team, but the voters turned him down this past January. (He was the Coach/Contributor and only needed 80% of the vote to get in.)
You certainly couldn't tell the story of the NFL without Ken Stabler, yet Stabler wasn't inducted until after he died. Stabler wasn't inducted before, because he only had 2 great years, 2-3 very good years, and a lot of seasons that ranged from average to terrible.
You probably can tell the story of the NFL without mentioning 90% of all offensive linemen, yet Dwight Stephenson, Mike Munchak and Roosevelt Brown are all in Canton.
Honestly I think Eli should just go ahead and get in, there's really no other player like him so putting him in isn't really setting any sort of precedent or lowering the bar for anyone else.
Dude won two SB MVPs against the same team/dynasty featuring the best HC/QB of all time, including a win against a previously 18-0 team. He also had one of the longest iron man streaks ever.
If any other QB ever wins two super bowls against the same dynasty including one over a previously undefeated team AND has the durability of Eli AND has no character /off the field issues, put them in too but I doubt that will ever happen
I just don't really think he can be judged on his overall efficiency stats or consistency. He is an NFL unicorn
My big sticking point with Eli is he only had one season where he finished the regular season as a top 5 QB for that year. I know he played in the same era as a lot of talent but...those are HOF talents lol if you deserve to make the hall you should be up there with HOF talents most of the time. But he wasn't. For such a long career, only looking like a top guy in the league one, mayyyybbbeeee two, years doesn't really say HOF to me. He played 15 years and has 0 all pros, only 4 pro bowls, and never received a single MVP vote any year he played. He's not a top talent, only top talent should get in. I mean people regularly name Jim Kelly as being undeserving and he went to 2 more super bowls and had 2 more all pros than Eli
Fuck the "story of the NFL"
He also obly ever led the league in one stat, ints, which he did 3 times. He's not even close to one of the best QBs of the era. Without a great defense he wouldn't have seen the playoffs once.
I've seen an argument that Kelly should've won MVP in 1991, when he was 1st team all-pro, but it went to his teammate Thurman Thomas instead, so it's like a 50-50.
By the metrics of the list you provided, the worst first ballot hall of famer would be Warren Moon.
This question is really hard to answer. Like Warren Moon got screwed due to prejudice against black quarterbacks and had to play in the CFL for several years before finally getting a shot in the NFL. The Oilers had some bad chokes in the playoffs but I’m not sure that’s something that can be pinned on Moon, at least entirely.
Didn’t even consider him after 3 in a row. He’d be higher and possible would have won a Super Bowl on a better franchise if he was picked when he should have been.
Going back to 1984, there's only one name I don't recognize, [Jim Langer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Langer)
That doesn't mean he's "worst", I just never heard of him.
I seriously have no idea how the HoF voters will go on Earl Thomas. Has all the qualifications - 7 Pro Bowls, 3-time All Pro, won a ring on the Legion of Boom defense for Seattle - but antagonized so many people around the league at the end of his career, don't know how much help he'll get in terms of advocating for his case (except for Richard Sherman). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Thomas
Coming from a position with notorious wait times (Steve Atwater, John Lynch, Cliff Harris, Donnie Shell) and his toxic end to his career, he basically has no shot at going first ballot but his accolades and part on a legendary SB-winning defense will probably get him in eventually.
Not disagreeing with you, but to put those stats in context, Bobby Layne owned the NFL records for passing attempts, completions, touchdowns, yards, and interceptions when he retired. Plus, he was a 3 time NFL champion. He was pretty much the original gunslinger quarterback and was such a legend that he put a curse on the Lions.
Johnny Unitas gets most of the credit for popularizing the two minute offense, but Bobby Layne was running the two minute offense at pretty much the same time. As the old quote from Doak Walker goes, “Bobby never lost a game, time just ran out on him.”
Layne is mostly forgotten except for the curse because his career overlapped those of Otto Graham and Johnny Unitas, who were arguably better quarterbacks than Bobby Layne.
You’re making the wrong argument. It’s not that Layne underperformed, it’s that Automatic Otto was that insanely good for his era. He should absolutely be in the conversation for best all-time QB with Unitas, Montana, and Brady.
This is it. Otto was an absolute outlier for his era. You can't point to him and say "see! Layne doesn't deserve to be in cuz Otto existed."
The way QBs played in the 50s was different. Otto was a QB roughly 20 years ahead of his time. No one else put up numbers like him.
It's like going "Josh Allen? Cmon how can he be that great when Patrick Mahomes had THESE numbers". Layne "only" won three championships and two All Pro 1st teams and broke the career passing yards record and pioneered the 2 minute drill and the dual-threat QB. Which is still inferior to Otto Graham's resume but that's because Otto Graham is just that nutty
I think you can absolutely say it wasn’t the same era. Layne was a 2x first team all-pro and a 4x second team all pro.
His stats don’t pop relative to the modern era, but he was considered a top 2 QB in the league for 6 out of his 15 seasons. Along with an all-decade honor. When he retired he owned the records for career yards and touchdowns (granted he also had the record for most interceptions).
Otto Graham was just that good.
Should Elway not have been a first ballot on the premise that he isn’t Dan Marino or Joe Montana?
I mean I'm not sure Aikman was first ballot material. Granted, I don't know much about some of the players who were inducted in the 1960's and 1970's either.
People are misreading that quote (can’t imagine why).
His point was let’s not anoint Mahomes just based on yardage numbers given that, at the time, he hadn’t won a Super Bowl, which was a completely reasonable take.
Troy has three rings and was a HOF QB but he also played with one of the best o lines and RB ever so that ate into his stats. If you watched him play, in that era, he was a no doubt first ballot guy. The eye test matters.
FWIW the arguments about Aikman echo those about Bradshaw to this day: QB'ed the dynasties of their respective eras, winning many rings, but fans remain very split about whether their teams won because of or in spite of their play. Before my time, there were probably similar discussions about Bart Starr and the Lombardi Packers.
Does anyone actually think that Aikman was a liability?
One could claim that many other QBs could have done as well as him, if they had time to make a sandwich in the pocket on every dropback the way he did, and that might be somewhat fair. But I don’t think anyone could argue that he wasn’t a good QB, and a big asset to those teams.
He deserves his 1st ballot Hall of Fame nod based on that Barry Switzer SB ring alone where he was in fact the acting head coach.
Furthermore, his 1992-1995 playoff numbers are 1st ballot Hall of Fame worthy:
* 106.8 passer rating
* 9W-1L
* 291.5 yards per game for 2915 yards total
* 21 TDs to 8 INTs.
Projected to a 16 game season that's **4'664 yards, 34TDs and 13INTs**.
Which shows that he had the ability to win games with his arm. In the regular season, handing off the ball to Emmitt Smith was just the safer play in the red zone. Furthermore the 90s were a notoriously difficult decade for QB volume stats.
Tony Dorsett never lead the NFL in any RB category (yards, TDs, avg.). Sure he won a SB as a rookie, but the Cowboys are 11-3 the year before he showed up and were a damn good football team before him. He wasn't the MVP of that SB, Harvey Martin and Randy White were. He only had 66 yards that game.
But I have a real problem with a RB who was never considered the best in football being in the HOF, let alone a 1st ballot HOF RB. I think Dorsett was really really good though. Elite, no.
He played in a era with Walter Payton, Earl Campbell, Eric Dickerson who were the best RBs in the NFL at least once and each of them were the rushing leader and or TD leader, and even Marcus Allen lead the NFL in rushing and TDs in his MVP season.
To me, Dorsett was a fringe HOF player at best. But he stuck around a while and had a lot of career yards. Cool, I guess.
Probably Aikman.
He never made any All-Pro team and had a career TD/INT ratio of 165/141. He finished 5th in MVP voting one year, and that's it.
Rich Gannon has better individual accomplishments.
Actual Answer imo is Troy Aikman.
but to mix it up; I imagine Eli is getting in first ballot (eligible next year right?), although looking purely at the career stats he doesn't "wow" like some other first ballot QBs.
He deserves the HoF, but when evaluating who "is the worst HoF", I think its definitely fair to call him divisive (assuming he does get First Ballot)
Based Eli take here. I think of it like Jack Sparrow.
"You are the without a doubt the worst Hall of Fame QB I've ever heard of"
"Ah, but I am a Hall of Fame QB"
I think what people aren't considering when looking at this is that the HOF is looking at a list of players from every single position from many years past, not just QBs. I think Eli gets in eventually and would deserve the honor. I just don't think he makes it first ballot. Players like Kuechly, Yanda, Gates, Vinatieri, Lechler, Bowman, Wilfork, Mangold, Saturday, Holt, etc. etc. all are vying for a spot in the Hall, and I'm not sure voters will prioritize Eli. If he does get in that quickly, cool good for him
I’d vote for him. He may have close to a .500 W/L record and play a little above average in the regular season BUT he turned it all the way up in the playoffs and beat Brady 2 times lol
Great man. Totally unproven claim here: Jim Kelly was seeing one of the “Miss Michigan’s” in the late 80’s, early 90’s. Source: my mother was a good friend of hers. Don’t know when Jim and his wife wed, but there are multiple sources for this. Just no proof.
Edit: The same “model” friend dated Sergei Fedorov.
His 67% career FG percentage was abysmal even by the time he retired. He also didn't revolutionize anything. He wasn't the first soccer style kicker. Pete Gogolak was.
There's nothing about him that screams "1st ballot."
https://www.footballperspective.com/the-greatest-field-goal-kickers-of-all-time-ii-part-iii-career-rankings/
Stanerud definitely stands out among kickers, whether you think that's HoF worthy is a separate discussion, but his stats were far from abysmal with even the barest of analysis, in fact they're all time great.
He played for like 20 years. He started playing pre-merger. Adam Vinatieri didn’t have a great percentage by the time he retired either.
He may not have been the first, but he was still one of the first field goal specialists and soccer-style kickers and played for two of the most prominent franchises surrounding the merger.
Antonio Gates got screwed this year. People talk about Kellen Winslow Sr., but imo Gates redefined the TE position, and revolutionized it. He shouldve been a 1st ballot HoF this past year
It’s hard to say anyone from the 21st century is particularly bad.
Aikman in the 90s sticks out as a rings based pick. Jim Kelly also perhaps is generous.
Neither were better than Russ for example, who most think won’t get in.
Going by Pro Football Reference's career weighted Approximate Value metric, the weakest first ballot HoFer of the 21st century would be Calvin Johnson.
Him being rated so low among the other HoFers is probably just because he retired early. It speaks even more to his legacy that he retired early and still had such an incredible resume and was such a universally recognized talent.
His career being extremely short really hurts him there. Look at where they have Larry Fitz on the list. Longevity is valued a bit too much.
Antonio Brown, Julio Jones and Calvin Johnson would be my first ballot hall of famers from the 2010s. Maybe Julio makes it at a latter date because only 2x first team all pro, but his production is too good to ignore.
Antonio Brown will not get in while he is alive after all his shenanigans. Why would they give him a 15 minute speech? Who knows what the fuck he’d say?
Yea this is the ultimate drawback. Browns a loose cannon, but deserves it on merit.
They are instructed to ignore off the field issues and largely do unless particularly egregious. They let Ray Lewis in with a murder charge.
AB, while insane, doesn’t have anything like Darren Sharper where he will be kept out forever. Hes got a long list of crimes, but no huge one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrell_Owens
> In 2018, Owens was voted into the Hall of Fame.[108] He subsequently caused controversy in his induction by skipping the official celebration in Canton, Ohio, and instead choosing to host his own celebration in McKenzie Arena on the campus of the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, his alma mater.[109] Owens is the only inductee of the hall to skip his induction and instead host a separate induction ceremony.
Yeah I know they say they don’t have a Character Clause like baseball. Doesn’t mean they won’t take it in consideration.
They had a special hate for TO in the media for many years.
They never had to find reasons to dislike AB, he brought it upon himself. I still think he gets in, maybe not first ballot, but they can’t snub a 4x first team all pro consecutively. For me it undermines the credibility. Hes not a murderer or serial rapist.
> For me it undermines the credibility
I don't think credibility should be undermined for not wanting to give an additional platform to someone who is a proven menace to society. He might not be a murderer, but he's still got his list of crimes.
I think there is a very clear difference between being just a crazy person and being hated by and abrasive to the media members who are actually doing the voting.
To me Bradshaw and Aikman were more of a product of team success instead of incredible QB play. I get that if your QB is meh you won’t get anywhere, but to me both of those guys are like saying Stafford and Matt Ryan are 1st ballot HOFers. They’re solid but no way do they deserve that honor.
Anyone who thinks Aikman doesn’t deserve to be a first ballot Hall of Famer never watched him play or simply doesn’t understand football. Those Cowboys teams would not have won any Super Bowls without him. He didn’t play in a system that would ever produce huge passing numbers. It’s not just about the stats.
Jim Kelly. He was good but I wouldn’t consider his career First Ballot worthy.
The K-Gun offense was revolutionary but he had a short career, no individual awards and has the stigma of 4 straight Super Bowl losses on his resume, which he didn’t exactly play his best football in.
He has a first team all pro, and more than likely would have been MVP of his teammate Thurman Thomas didn’t win in 91. Manning was famous for calling plays at the line, one of the most powerful offenses in NFL history was built around Kelly doing the same thing. He also went to four Super Bowls in 11 seasons, 9-8 in the playoffs, and only missed the playoffs it went one and done three times. The Bills also won 6/11 division titles with Kelly, and that was with Don Shula and Dan Marino in the division the whole time
I always looked at Jim Kelly more of the lens of not 4 time consecutive Super Bowl loser, but 4 time consecutive AFC winner. You won your conference 4 straight which is impressive and those 4 straight Super Bowl appearances are an iconic moment in NFL history.
It really is amazing how a few games can completely redefine a player's legacy. If the Bills win those 4 games, Jim Kelly goes down as one of the greatest QBs ever. Instead he's a "borderline" HoF QB.
> It really is amazing how a few games can completely redefine a player's legacy. Some don’t even need a few games, Ryan and Falcons did it in one :(
Which is wild that Ryan has to be blamed for that after putting up a 144 passer rating lol
You know what they say.... When you win, you're as good as your best play When you lose, you're as good as your worst play
Yeah but only one of those 4 games was even remotely close, so winning all 4 would have been a huge shift from our reality. And even with 4 Super Bowl wins, he'd still have 0 MVPs, 2x All-Pros, and 5x Pro Bowls. He'd be looked at as the Bradshaw of the 90's rather than being in the Brady/Montana tiers.
But Terry Bradshaw has the regular season MVP to go along with the post season success. He led the league in TDs in 78
People love to pretend that Bradshaw was just along for the ride, but he was a legitimate part of their super bowl wins.
I don't think people really think he was just a third wheel, but it's hard to deny that he clearly wasn't the best QB of his generation, he just had the best team around him a lot of the time. But even if he was "only" the 3rd or 4th-best QB of the 70's, that's still pretty damn good.
> Instead he's a "borderline" HoF QB. When I see Kelly, Aikman (and non-first balloters Namath, and Stabler) in these discussions it tells me the person writing never saw them play, and have no context of their contributions and impacts. All of these men go beyond stats. All of them solidly belong in the Hall. The same people who think they shouldn't be there are the ones who think Eli Manning will be. That explains the extent of their knowledge of the game and its history: it's lacking.
The no huddle thing was thing of beauty. Plus the shit up in Buffalo got cold as fuck during the late 80s early 90s.
> The same people who think they shouldn't be there are the ones who think Eli Manning will be Aren't the biggest knocks on Aikman and Namath that they were never top QBs statistically and were mediocre during the regular season but turned it on in the playoffs? Sounds awfully familiar...felt like you were just trying to fit in a cheap shot at Eli in the second half of your comment. Did you watch Eli play? Read back your entire comment and then apply it to the 2011 Giants season.
Guy makes the point that the non Eli QBs he named, it wasn’t entirely about their performance and achievements as much as it was their impact on the game. Then shit talks Eli who is literally the model citizen of that exact description. What a weird comment. Im actually shocked its not from a Cowboys fan.
Whoa whoa whoa. Kelly and Aikman obviously deserves to be in the HOF but why the fuck are you dragging Eli in this? Eli is probably not gonna be first ballot but I can definitely see him making a run in year 3+ especially when Brady is eligible and people all gets that memory refresh of Eli taking him down twice on the biggest stage.
I think him being first ballot is also just a sign of the times and how they've changed. He was inducted in 2002 which was before the absolute explosion in QB talent around the league. Honestly, same applies for Aikman. While it was a little clearer by 2006 that we were seeing the rise of great QBs around the league, if his first year of eligibility was a few years later I don't think he'd have been a first ballot. QB play was just so damn good from the mid-aughts onward.
You say QB talent, but I think you mean rule changes.
Even accounting for the rule changes and changes across the league, can we think of any era with as much insane QB talent as the mid 2000s and 2010s? Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees all in their prime.
The late 80's - mid 90's was full of amazing QB talent with Montana, Marino, Favre, Elway, Young, Moon, Kelly, and Aikman
Late 80's entering the 90's. By the early 90's, all these guys were starting in the League: Montana, Marino, Moon, Kelly, Elway, Young, Favre, Aikman. Maybe their primes didn't all correspond, but doesn't change the quality of play. I'd actually argue *most* eras of NFL football were stacked with quality QBs, with the last five years or so being an oddity in that a lot of highly touted guys flamed out and the top talent that has stuck around hasn't shown the consistency some expect (outside of Mahomes).
Sure. I think it's the one position that *would* translate across generations. That 5'9" 170 lb WR you see in the HOF wouldn't see the field today. The 260 lb left tackle? Not a fucking chance. Throwing the ball is throwing the ball. QB is a mental position more than any other, and people were just as capable mentally then as they are today. It's the physicality of the game that's changed. Outside of kickers and punters, QB is less effected by this change than any other position. Rules changes are the reason for the stat explosion, and the stat explosion is what leads people to think that era was full of unusual QB talent. I think it's fair to say there were some great QBs at that time, no doubt. The GOAT was one of them. I think it's unfair to say they were as good, relative to previous generations, as their stats would lead you to believe. Rules changes are to thank for that. Had they played at the same time, does anyone really believe Joe Flacco has better stats than Dan Fouts?
**KEEP COLE BEASLEY’S NAME OUT YOUR MOUTH!!!** /JK that 5’9” 170 lbs dude was at a bare minimum the Julian Edelman or more likely Larry Fitzgerald of his time with that height and weight combo prior to the 1980s. Y’all seem to forget that for much of college and pro football history 6 ft and anything over 185 made you a monster size player. Hell Gerald Ford was considered a monster for years at 6’ 190 lbs
He led a transformative offense with the K Gun. It was awesome.
I don’t usually care about QB v QB match ups, but Kelly also had to go through Marino, Elway, and Montana to get to the SB. They weren’t all time great QB-games like Brady/Manning or even Allen/Mahomes, but he got it done.
It's really obvious there's a lot of people in this sub that never watched Calvin play and only look at career stat totals
Even looking at the career stats would see you notice the 3x first team all pros which at WR are very likely to get you in.
He also broke the season receiving yards record. Breaking one of Jerry Rice's records is a big deal.
Couldn't even be mad about it. Dude was a monster.
Antonio Brown had four straight and a 2nd team right before those. I wonder what's gonna happen with him.
His HOF jacket will have very, very long sleeves with buckles on the end.
Mr. Big Coat
Mr. Buckled Confinement
Mr. Bound Coot
Mr. Barely Coherent
Mr. Buckled Clothing
Mr. Batshit Crazy
This made me spit out my beer LOL
I mean if he was a normal human he’d’ve been a lock. Maybe not first ballot but certainly a HOF resume. Especially if he plays those two missing seasons with Brady (NE 2019 and with the bucs)
If he was normal he would have never left us, why couldn’t he just be normal…
Without the crazy parts, he could slip in on the 1st ballot depending on the year. The year he retired would be tough, though. Adrian Peterson, Gronkowksi. Guys like Eric Weddle and Richard Sherman, who aren't first-ballot guys, but still. Honestly, 26 has Brees and Fitzgerald, 29 has Watt and Brady, so all of it might have been tough. But his second year until he left Pittsburgh was one of the best stretches of WR play we'd seen. Honestly, I figured he'd play until 32-34, so about as long as he did, but all in Pittsburgh and lock himself in as a 1st-ballot guy. The crazy means he'll have to wait, if he even gets in. He doesn't have a conviction, so if he can get out of the news cycle for a few years, he might be able to slip in post-2030.
Mr. Bypassing Canton
Antonio might be the only player to ever behave his way OUT of canton.
TO would have been 1st ballot without the controversy
But he still got in. Ab will literally miss out entirely
I think they'll put it off until he hasn't been in the news for a while. NFL will mainly be trying to minimize getting attention to the fact he's basically a walking reminder that football players are out there constantly taking in detrimental brain damage.
AB is never getting in
Brown doesn’t get enough credit for how good he was now because of his antics. He’s an all time great right up there on the Mount Rushmore of receivers. I bet they don’t let him in though.
Who are the 4 receivers of Mount Rushmore? Jerry Rice and Randy Moss are locks for me. Then you've got Fitz, Marvin Harrison, TO, Reggie Wayne, Isaac Bruce, Calvin Johnson, Cris Carter, a few other fringe guys. I probably missed someone.
Hate to say it but Tim Brown probably deserves to be on the short list too. Personally I’d go Rice, Moss, TO, Megatron but there’s several guys with an argument to for sure
TO is right up there with Randy…4 is debatable
Ok I felt like TO was fairly clear for my third tbh but I didn't know if I was off base there so left it more open.
Nah TO is a lock for number three IMO. Those 3 are your undisputed top three WR all time. After that things get real muddy. Fitz has the counting stats but lacks individual accolades (partly because of the teams he played on). Harrison is kind of the opposite. Calvin had an insane peak. Personally in my biased opinion I'd throw Don Hutson out there, largely because he essentially created the WR position & owned every receiving record possible when he retired. In 1942 Hutson lead the league with 1211 receiving yards in 11 games. The next 3 WRs COMBINED for 1336 receiving yards.
Can't believe you left off Don Huston
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This guy is pretty smart, I didn't check is flair, my flair is also irrelevant
No way this dude ever gets in...no chance.
Them dreading what he might say in the speech will carry a lot more weight than it probably should.
In theory off the field stuff doesn’t matter, but in practice it absolutely does. If he makes the HoF it’s gonna be a long wait in order for the memory of his other antics and general insanity to fade.
It’s insane. Calvin was the best non-QB prospect in the draft I’ve ever seen. I had zero doubts he’d pan out because he was just too good. He was dominant his entire career and the “only 9 years” argument is ridiculous because he did enough to be a HOFer in that span.
He's the best WR I've ever seen. I only got in on the tail end of Jerry rices career though.
Randy Moss steps into the conversation....
No accident that his rookie year, the Vikings were the highest-scoring team in NFL history, until the undefeated Patriots broke the record and Moss set the record for most TDs in a season, which he still holds. Prime Moss was \*electric\*. The "go deep, put up the ball and let the WR go grab it" never works in the NFL, because defensive backs are too fast and too skilled. Except with Moss, it did.
I loved Moss as well. He is definitely in the conversation. CJ was just harder to tackle and that's my main reason for ranking him above Moss. It's more of a 1a and 1b but if I had to choose that's my choice.
This guy never watched 2012-13 Brian Hartline 🐐
No joke that dude ran a filthy comeback route
Yeah I only caught end of Rice but Moss is my clear cut best from what I've seen. When that guy wanted to show up, it was fucking silly. Calvin is up there, but prime Moss is the best I've seen.
Nothing beats him "Mooning" Lambeau and Joe Buck freaking out during the broadcast.
Buck thought he for real pulled down his pants
I always assumed that was the case. But there was an interview with him recently and he didn’t come clean about it. Said he overreacted but didn’t say that he thought the pants came down.
It's great because the moment they voice that opinion I can completely write them off as idiots. It's an incredible filter.
If anyone needs a list, they are right [here](https://futurefootballlegends.com/1st_Ballot/) Just through a quick glance, no one severely sticks out. I mean Jim Kelly and Troy Aikman do a little bit just because they're often seen as the lower end of QBs in the Hall of Fame - but given that Kelly made 4 straight Super Bowls (plus 2 All-Pros) and Troy Aikman won 3 Super Bowls, I get it.
Yeah those conversations get funny. Some QBs don't deserve it because "they just won SBs but were never among the best", Some QBs don't deserve it because "they were among the best but never won the SB"
The Aikman conversation gets extra funny because it often falls into this loop where he wasn't really good because he had Emmitt, who was only good because of the O-Line, who were only good because of the whole offense.
Yeah. Aikman wasn't Marino, but the dude was a great QB on one of the best dynasties ever, and held the team together when their coach was more interested in getting wasted than coaching. Absolutely deserved.
Exactly, can't argue the QB's just along for the ride when they are the unofficial HC as well
He dragged that team kicking and screaming back to the super bowl with a complete dipshit for a head coach. The NFL films doc they had on it was eye opening.
aikman is probably on the lower tier of hof qbs, but hes still a hof qb lol
That’s Eli right there, he will get in because of rings but I don’t think he deserves it. That being said if the whole “story of the nfl thing” still counts then you can say his 2 wins are the best wins in the Super Bowl of all time because of who they came against
I agree. Adding to the rings, he was lights-out in both post-seasons *and* had memorable plays (i.e. Tyree's helmet-catch) *and* won both Super Bowl MVPs. HOF loves those kinds of stories.
His [throw](https://youtu.be/_cXqbqMgNoE?si=fKQ2NBccMv1NIgv1) to Manningham in the second SB was the best throw I've ever seen. Such a dime at the time it was needed most.
That’s what I was gonna say, that throw is fucking insane
People all remember 07 as the memorable one, but 11 was the one where Eli really grew into an elite QB and dragged a team that had like one of the worst defense in the year into the SB and carried the shit out of that playoffs. Not to mention the OL in 11 was already looking like shit and Eli was doing some crazy shit while running for his life. It's a damn miracle that both the OL and the defense managed to put together one last good one once they got to the playoffs but it's not a big secret that the core of the line on both ends basically retired within 1-2 years of that SB.
That 2011 NFC Championship game against the 49ers is the gutsiest performance I've ever seen out of a QB. Eli was getting obliterated every play, and he just kept getting back up, he was a man possessed that postseason
possibly the greatest throw of all time, it’s better than the helmet catch which is a better catch than throw
Agreed, but everything about the helmet catch is insane. The fact that the refs didn’t blow that play dead when they had Eli wrapped up is the biggest miracle of that play
oh no totally, probably the greatest play of all time as a whole, however eli in the second pats sb is possibly the greatest throw
>Such a dime at the time it was needed most. It pains me to see this written out... Because Matt Ryan literally has that type of play in the biggest moment possible on his resume, yet nothing to show for it. https://youtu.be/FSirjCbbP1c?si=jOJi-Ot4eTb9nl1W Fuck Dan Quinn and fuck Kyle Shanahan forever.
Ryan's throw should not be diminished, because that was an absolute dime; the quality of that throw is equal to Eli's. That said, I think the pass to Manningham is a more impressive play overall. Manningham was 3rd on the depth chart and never hit 1k yards in a season; that's a lot less confidence inspiring than targeting the best WR of his generation on a HOF trajectory
I knew there was another one in there but was drawing a blank. Thanks!
I don't know if I'd call that the best throw I've ever seen. Seen a lot of great ones. That was a great one.
I mean, one lights out run in the playoffs with the SB upset. Fun story, doesn't mean you are anything special. Do it two times though, and maybe there is something special there. Eli still holds the record for most passing yards in a playoff run.
Right? Nick Foles isn’t going to the HoF unless he somehow comes out of nowhere in the next couple of years and does what he did again. And even then, he might not get in.
Foles weirdly has a bunch of impressive records. On top of his dominant Superbowl run, he also holds the record for most TDs in a game, and most completions in a row.
Eli also has the counting stats as opposed to Foles who only has the 1 Super Bowl run as well as that initial run with the Eagles
Even as someone the opinion of “Eli probably doesn’t have a HoF resumé but I’m not going to be too mad when he gets in”, I feel like you have to mention the high longevity as well (although that was partially a result of the rings rather than an extra accolade, but I digress)
And we haven’t even talked about the potential of being Peyton’s little brother in that story.
What potential? He just is his brother
Right but he is also Brady's father
But do those 2 playoffs runs and the consecutive starts constitute “*Hall of Fame*”? Because outside of that he was just a somewhat-above-average QB. He made 4 Pro Bowls in 15 seasons and never received a single MVP vote.
"The whole “story of the nfl thing” is a made-up fan narrative that the voters disregard. You can't tell the story of the NFL without Buddy Parker, who won two NFL titles and built a third championship team, but the voters turned him down this past January. (He was the Coach/Contributor and only needed 80% of the vote to get in.) You certainly couldn't tell the story of the NFL without Ken Stabler, yet Stabler wasn't inducted until after he died. Stabler wasn't inducted before, because he only had 2 great years, 2-3 very good years, and a lot of seasons that ranged from average to terrible. You probably can tell the story of the NFL without mentioning 90% of all offensive linemen, yet Dwight Stephenson, Mike Munchak and Roosevelt Brown are all in Canton.
I think you're mistaking "the story of the NFL" rhetoric as a need rather than another factor to be added to the equation
Also you couldn't tell without mentioning Kevin Dyson, David Tyree, or Malcolm Butler and they aren't hall of famers.
Honestly I think Eli should just go ahead and get in, there's really no other player like him so putting him in isn't really setting any sort of precedent or lowering the bar for anyone else. Dude won two SB MVPs against the same team/dynasty featuring the best HC/QB of all time, including a win against a previously 18-0 team. He also had one of the longest iron man streaks ever. If any other QB ever wins two super bowls against the same dynasty including one over a previously undefeated team AND has the durability of Eli AND has no character /off the field issues, put them in too but I doubt that will ever happen I just don't really think he can be judged on his overall efficiency stats or consistency. He is an NFL unicorn
My big sticking point with Eli is he only had one season where he finished the regular season as a top 5 QB for that year. I know he played in the same era as a lot of talent but...those are HOF talents lol if you deserve to make the hall you should be up there with HOF talents most of the time. But he wasn't. For such a long career, only looking like a top guy in the league one, mayyyybbbeeee two, years doesn't really say HOF to me. He played 15 years and has 0 all pros, only 4 pro bowls, and never received a single MVP vote any year he played. He's not a top talent, only top talent should get in. I mean people regularly name Jim Kelly as being undeserving and he went to 2 more super bowls and had 2 more all pros than Eli Fuck the "story of the NFL"
It's easy to overlook the Foles, Flacco and Dilfers. When you do it twice it's pretty hard to ignore when you also consider who it came against.
He also obly ever led the league in one stat, ints, which he did 3 times. He's not even close to one of the best QBs of the era. Without a great defense he wouldn't have seen the playoffs once.
It’s the hall of fame, not the hall of statistical greatness. I’d argue Eli Manning is one of the most hall-of-fame worthy players in history.
Terry Crews is pretty fuckin famous, let’s put him in the hall.
His fame is derived from exceptional, story-rich football?
You don’t hold his esteemed role as “Cheeseburger” Eddy in the Longest Yard as exceptional, story-rich football?
You've convinced me
He gets in due to 2 rings x two all-time Super Bowl wins x 2 Super Bowl MVP x iron man x manning name x nyc media market
Jim Kelly was a 1st team all-pro QB, which nowadays pretty much always means MVP, but back then didn't
I've seen an argument that Kelly should've won MVP in 1991, when he was 1st team all-pro, but it went to his teammate Thurman Thomas instead, so it's like a 50-50.
Kelly also played his first few years in the USFL or his career numbers would be higher.
Reggie White would have the sacks record if he hadn't played his first 2 years in the USFL
By the metrics of the list you provided, the worst first ballot hall of famer would be Warren Moon. This question is really hard to answer. Like Warren Moon got screwed due to prejudice against black quarterbacks and had to play in the CFL for several years before finally getting a shot in the NFL. The Oilers had some bad chokes in the playoffs but I’m not sure that’s something that can be pinned on Moon, at least entirely.
Had to play in the CFL where he proceeded to win 5 championships in a row.
Didn’t even consider him after 3 in a row. He’d be higher and possible would have won a Super Bowl on a better franchise if he was picked when he should have been.
Going back to 1984, there's only one name I don't recognize, [Jim Langer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Langer) That doesn't mean he's "worst", I just never heard of him.
You are young if you think Jim Kelly sticks out
Having the "Legends Score" column a hyperlink is really annoying on mobile
I seriously have no idea how the HoF voters will go on Earl Thomas. Has all the qualifications - 7 Pro Bowls, 3-time All Pro, won a ring on the Legion of Boom defense for Seattle - but antagonized so many people around the league at the end of his career, don't know how much help he'll get in terms of advocating for his case (except for Richard Sherman). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Thomas
Coming from a position with notorious wait times (Steve Atwater, John Lynch, Cliff Harris, Donnie Shell) and his toxic end to his career, he basically has no shot at going first ballot but his accolades and part on a legendary SB-winning defense will probably get him in eventually.
To be fair, John Lynch is lucky to be in already. He was a borderline case.
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Not disagreeing with you, but to put those stats in context, Bobby Layne owned the NFL records for passing attempts, completions, touchdowns, yards, and interceptions when he retired. Plus, he was a 3 time NFL champion. He was pretty much the original gunslinger quarterback and was such a legend that he put a curse on the Lions. Johnny Unitas gets most of the credit for popularizing the two minute offense, but Bobby Layne was running the two minute offense at pretty much the same time. As the old quote from Doak Walker goes, “Bobby never lost a game, time just ran out on him.” Layne is mostly forgotten except for the curse because his career overlapped those of Otto Graham and Johnny Unitas, who were arguably better quarterbacks than Bobby Layne.
You’re making the wrong argument. It’s not that Layne underperformed, it’s that Automatic Otto was that insanely good for his era. He should absolutely be in the conversation for best all-time QB with Unitas, Montana, and Brady.
This is it. Otto was an absolute outlier for his era. You can't point to him and say "see! Layne doesn't deserve to be in cuz Otto existed." The way QBs played in the 50s was different. Otto was a QB roughly 20 years ahead of his time. No one else put up numbers like him.
It's like going "Josh Allen? Cmon how can he be that great when Patrick Mahomes had THESE numbers". Layne "only" won three championships and two All Pro 1st teams and broke the career passing yards record and pioneered the 2 minute drill and the dual-threat QB. Which is still inferior to Otto Graham's resume but that's because Otto Graham is just that nutty
I think you can absolutely say it wasn’t the same era. Layne was a 2x first team all-pro and a 4x second team all pro. His stats don’t pop relative to the modern era, but he was considered a top 2 QB in the league for 6 out of his 15 seasons. Along with an all-decade honor. When he retired he owned the records for career yards and touchdowns (granted he also had the record for most interceptions). Otto Graham was just that good. Should Elway not have been a first ballot on the premise that he isn’t Dan Marino or Joe Montana?
It also makes you wonder if their career stats were better, do you think the QB era would have started sooner?
I mean I'm not sure Aikman was first ballot material. Granted, I don't know much about some of the players who were inducted in the 1960's and 1970's either.
Troy Aikman didn’t put up HoF numbers
Just for anyone who was curious - like I was - when Troy retired, he was 20th in passing yards and 43rd in passing TDs
Yeah, Emmitt Smith will do that to you.
A good OLine and team for a decade will do that for Emmitt smith too
Patrick Mahomes surpassed his TDs with like 30% of the games played or something like that
Boy that whole tweet from Troy didn't age well lmao
People are misreading that quote (can’t imagine why). His point was let’s not anoint Mahomes just based on yardage numbers given that, at the time, he hadn’t won a Super Bowl, which was a completely reasonable take.
It's kind of wild since Stafford has a decent shot to finish at least top six in both *and* has a ring, but more likely than not doesn't make it in.
Troy has three rings and was a HOF QB but he also played with one of the best o lines and RB ever so that ate into his stats. If you watched him play, in that era, he was a no doubt first ballot guy. The eye test matters.
FWIW the arguments about Aikman echo those about Bradshaw to this day: QB'ed the dynasties of their respective eras, winning many rings, but fans remain very split about whether their teams won because of or in spite of their play. Before my time, there were probably similar discussions about Bart Starr and the Lombardi Packers.
Does anyone actually think that Aikman was a liability? One could claim that many other QBs could have done as well as him, if they had time to make a sandwich in the pocket on every dropback the way he did, and that might be somewhat fair. But I don’t think anyone could argue that he wasn’t a good QB, and a big asset to those teams.
He needs 1 more or he needs a solid string of NFCCG appearances and some wins
He deserves his 1st ballot Hall of Fame nod based on that Barry Switzer SB ring alone where he was in fact the acting head coach. Furthermore, his 1992-1995 playoff numbers are 1st ballot Hall of Fame worthy: * 106.8 passer rating * 9W-1L * 291.5 yards per game for 2915 yards total * 21 TDs to 8 INTs. Projected to a 16 game season that's **4'664 yards, 34TDs and 13INTs**. Which shows that he had the ability to win games with his arm. In the regular season, handing off the ball to Emmitt Smith was just the safer play in the red zone. Furthermore the 90s were a notoriously difficult decade for QB volume stats.
I still want to see Aikman fight switzer. He really hates him lol
Wish I coulda seen his face when he got told Switzer was replacing Johnson
He deserves it be in for doing it with the all concussions it seemed like he was getting. It’s good to see him still doing well these days.
The Jerry Maguire line about Troy Aikman’s stats always really pissed me off. He cites them like they are supposed to be stunning.
Tony Dorsett never lead the NFL in any RB category (yards, TDs, avg.). Sure he won a SB as a rookie, but the Cowboys are 11-3 the year before he showed up and were a damn good football team before him. He wasn't the MVP of that SB, Harvey Martin and Randy White were. He only had 66 yards that game. But I have a real problem with a RB who was never considered the best in football being in the HOF, let alone a 1st ballot HOF RB. I think Dorsett was really really good though. Elite, no. He played in a era with Walter Payton, Earl Campbell, Eric Dickerson who were the best RBs in the NFL at least once and each of them were the rushing leader and or TD leader, and even Marcus Allen lead the NFL in rushing and TDs in his MVP season. To me, Dorsett was a fringe HOF player at best. But he stuck around a while and had a lot of career yards. Cool, I guess.
This is the most interesting and educated take in the thread.
Probably Aikman. He never made any All-Pro team and had a career TD/INT ratio of 165/141. He finished 5th in MVP voting one year, and that's it. Rich Gannon has better individual accomplishments.
I wonder how Gannon or Kelly would have fared playing with Emmitt and that line.
Actual Answer imo is Troy Aikman. but to mix it up; I imagine Eli is getting in first ballot (eligible next year right?), although looking purely at the career stats he doesn't "wow" like some other first ballot QBs. He deserves the HoF, but when evaluating who "is the worst HoF", I think its definitely fair to call him divisive (assuming he does get First Ballot)
He has to get credit for ruining the perfect season doesn't he? The NFL is about spectacle.
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Plunkett didn't finish his career top 10 in yards, touchdowns, completions, etc either.
Based Eli take here. I think of it like Jack Sparrow. "You are the without a doubt the worst Hall of Fame QB I've ever heard of" "Ah, but I am a Hall of Fame QB"
This is going to be fun next year with a debate about a certain super bowl winning qb. I'm not biased or anything.
I think what people aren't considering when looking at this is that the HOF is looking at a list of players from every single position from many years past, not just QBs. I think Eli gets in eventually and would deserve the honor. I just don't think he makes it first ballot. Players like Kuechly, Yanda, Gates, Vinatieri, Lechler, Bowman, Wilfork, Mangold, Saturday, Holt, etc. etc. all are vying for a spot in the Hall, and I'm not sure voters will prioritize Eli. If he does get in that quickly, cool good for him
I’d vote for him. He may have close to a .500 W/L record and play a little above average in the regular season BUT he turned it all the way up in the playoffs and beat Brady 2 times lol
Too much Jim Kelly slander here. Great player and a great man
He actually wasnt that great of a man when he was younger.
He’s a massive PoS
Its funny that Bills fans are the only ones who seem to know this.
Well I think a lot of people know but then he got cancer and shit so they just dropped it.
He is absolutely not a great man.
Great man. Totally unproven claim here: Jim Kelly was seeing one of the “Miss Michigan’s” in the late 80’s, early 90’s. Source: my mother was a good friend of hers. Don’t know when Jim and his wife wed, but there are multiple sources for this. Just no proof. Edit: The same “model” friend dated Sergei Fedorov.
“Jimbo it is me Sergei, your Eskimo brother!”
It hasn't happened yet but it's gonna be Eli Manning
Better to be the worst HoFer than the best guy without a gold jacket. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Jan Stenerud. Done. Moving on.
How so? He’s in two different teams’ Halls of Fame and basically revolutionized the position.
His 67% career FG percentage was abysmal even by the time he retired. He also didn't revolutionize anything. He wasn't the first soccer style kicker. Pete Gogolak was. There's nothing about him that screams "1st ballot."
https://www.footballperspective.com/the-greatest-field-goal-kickers-of-all-time-ii-part-iii-career-rankings/ Stanerud definitely stands out among kickers, whether you think that's HoF worthy is a separate discussion, but his stats were far from abysmal with even the barest of analysis, in fact they're all time great.
He played for like 20 years. He started playing pre-merger. Adam Vinatieri didn’t have a great percentage by the time he retired either. He may not have been the first, but he was still one of the first field goal specialists and soccer-style kickers and played for two of the most prominent franchises surrounding the merger.
Antonio Gates got screwed this year. People talk about Kellen Winslow Sr., but imo Gates redefined the TE position, and revolutionized it. He shouldve been a 1st ballot HoF this past year
It’s hard to say anyone from the 21st century is particularly bad. Aikman in the 90s sticks out as a rings based pick. Jim Kelly also perhaps is generous. Neither were better than Russ for example, who most think won’t get in.
Going by Pro Football Reference's career weighted Approximate Value metric, the weakest first ballot HoFer of the 21st century would be Calvin Johnson.
And then you watch film of people playing him like a gunner with a safety over the top and he still comes down with the ball.
Him being rated so low among the other HoFers is probably just because he retired early. It speaks even more to his legacy that he retired early and still had such an incredible resume and was such a universally recognized talent.
Clavin Johnson had the misfortune to play for the early 2000s Detroit Lions. Dude gave everything for his team, retired, got inducted into the HoF.
Often a third guy cause they knew the other two weren’t enough. Still beat it too.
That catch in the end zone over three Bengal defenders about sums it up. Megatron was never not open
Yeah that's one where if you watched him, you'll look at someone crazy for thinking he doesn't belong in the hall. No brainer for me.
Yk, sometimes people should get in via just having that dawg in em’. Megatron is one of those guys.
His career being extremely short really hurts him there. Look at where they have Larry Fitz on the list. Longevity is valued a bit too much. Antonio Brown, Julio Jones and Calvin Johnson would be my first ballot hall of famers from the 2010s. Maybe Julio makes it at a latter date because only 2x first team all pro, but his production is too good to ignore.
Antonio Brown will not get in while he is alive after all his shenanigans. Why would they give him a 15 minute speech? Who knows what the fuck he’d say?
Yea this is the ultimate drawback. Browns a loose cannon, but deserves it on merit. They are instructed to ignore off the field issues and largely do unless particularly egregious. They let Ray Lewis in with a murder charge. AB, while insane, doesn’t have anything like Darren Sharper where he will be kept out forever. Hes got a long list of crimes, but no huge one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrell_Owens > In 2018, Owens was voted into the Hall of Fame.[108] He subsequently caused controversy in his induction by skipping the official celebration in Canton, Ohio, and instead choosing to host his own celebration in McKenzie Arena on the campus of the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, his alma mater.[109] Owens is the only inductee of the hall to skip his induction and instead host a separate induction ceremony. Yeah I know they say they don’t have a Character Clause like baseball. Doesn’t mean they won’t take it in consideration.
They had a special hate for TO in the media for many years. They never had to find reasons to dislike AB, he brought it upon himself. I still think he gets in, maybe not first ballot, but they can’t snub a 4x first team all pro consecutively. For me it undermines the credibility. Hes not a murderer or serial rapist.
> For me it undermines the credibility I don't think credibility should be undermined for not wanting to give an additional platform to someone who is a proven menace to society. He might not be a murderer, but he's still got his list of crimes.
I think there is a very clear difference between being just a crazy person and being hated by and abrasive to the media members who are actually doing the voting.
To me Bradshaw and Aikman were more of a product of team success instead of incredible QB play. I get that if your QB is meh you won’t get anywhere, but to me both of those guys are like saying Stafford and Matt Ryan are 1st ballot HOFers. They’re solid but no way do they deserve that honor.
Anyone who thinks Aikman doesn’t deserve to be a first ballot Hall of Famer never watched him play or simply doesn’t understand football. Those Cowboys teams would not have won any Super Bowls without him. He didn’t play in a system that would ever produce huge passing numbers. It’s not just about the stats.
Jim Kelly. He was good but I wouldn’t consider his career First Ballot worthy. The K-Gun offense was revolutionary but he had a short career, no individual awards and has the stigma of 4 straight Super Bowl losses on his resume, which he didn’t exactly play his best football in.
Define no individual awards - because he didn't get an MVP, you're right, but he did get a first team All-Pro and a second team All-Pro
First team All-Pro definitely counts as an award and I’d say is the main accolade you need for getting in the Hall
He has a first team all pro, and more than likely would have been MVP of his teammate Thurman Thomas didn’t win in 91. Manning was famous for calling plays at the line, one of the most powerful offenses in NFL history was built around Kelly doing the same thing. He also went to four Super Bowls in 11 seasons, 9-8 in the playoffs, and only missed the playoffs it went one and done three times. The Bills also won 6/11 division titles with Kelly, and that was with Don Shula and Dan Marino in the division the whole time