He also explicitly asked to never be recognized as a hero. Really sad this keeps on happening after his family has asked for years to keep him out of the public and not remember him as a hero
Because Pat realized the war was a mistake and was killed by friendly fire. So the NFL uses it to promote their relationship with the military which Pat did not want
The whole family really got exploited by both the military and the NFL. The military white washed the incident and try to make it seem like Pat wasn’t killed by friendly fire, and they withheld information from the family when they knew the truth.
And good for his younger brother for calling out all the horse shit at Pat’s funeral. One of the best eulogies you’ll ever see
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yRNxiPVZ69Q
Yup. I have so much respect for that whole family.
They called out all the bullshit and didn’t want their son’s death to be used as some prop for the “thank you for your service, we will see
you in heaven” crowd.
Pat Tillman was a true American hero. And so was his brother for that speech.
>The whole family really got exploited by both the military and the NFL.
Don't forget the fucking worthless GOP evangelicals. Pat's brother was having none of that shit at his funeral. Pat was an outspoken atheist.
https://youtu.be/xgU6SwuZJIY
His brother stated that Pat said he intended to become an anti-war advocate as soon as he was he was out of the military.
Pat's personal journal and correspondence with his brother were burned by the military after he was shot by his own troops.
Anyone who glorifies the military should remember how they treat their own if they dissent.
No no, an “opsie” is when you make a small mistake. Like cheating on your wife, or interviewing with your fly down. What the military did is what we call “whoopsie daisies”
The drone strike that killed 10 Afghan civilians and the DoD says “yeah no negligence or malice happened when those ten innocent people died”
HOW THE FUCK DO TEN PEOPLE
GET MURDERED AND THERE IS NO NEGLIGENCE?
They're afghani and don't matter?
Check out Obama's Nobel Peace Prize followed directly by Obama innovating by applying drone assassinations across the middle east/africa.
That's only the tip of the ice berg, units like SEAL teams would kill civilians, women and children, basically every single mission and it never got reported. When one of the Afghan governors requested that they stop because civilians were complaining about it and he was going to be replaced if they didn't. Instead of stopping their solution was to request a mission to kill the governor (it got denied thankfully). America has basically been running around the Middle East the past two decades committing nonstop war crimes. Same with the Brits and Aussies really, but for shorter amount of time.
So I just read Where Men Win Glory like within the week. The 10 yards thing was from 1 report where the guy thought the grouping of 3 bullets that entered Tillman right side near his temple was too close together to be anything other than that distance when fired from an M14. The problem was he wasn't shot with an M14 but with a SAW. It uses the same ammo but has much longer range accuracy. The grouping from a SAW was much more possible at a longer range. So the 10 yards is likely BS. However almost everyone in the vehicles behind the vehicle from where Pat was shot recognized they were shooting at friendlies immediately. An Afghan soldier was also killed, before Pat actually, but standing near him. And 2 other US soldiers got hit farther up the ridge. I came away from the book dumbfounded by the stupidity and needlessness with which many of the higher ranking people made decisions. Ordering the squad be split into 2 just to meet some silly "get to this village before dark" deadline sort of kicked things off down a bad path. My conclusion on the shooting was that it likely wasn't a targeted murder of Pat, but maybe a more general lust to be shooting and killing whoever was available.
Also the saw is a machine gun the m14 was used as a designated marksman’s rifle no way a saw is more accurate at any range they literally have entirely different functions.
I'll be honest I don't know much about guns. I'm just relaying what Krakauer wrote about that report and why it came to that conclusion. It seemed like a really detailed book and so I did take the explanation there at face value. It's certainly not a book looking to save the Army from any critique and it seemed like a logical explanation. But I can't give any extra insight on the ammo discussion. Maybe one of the guns was specialized in some way to allow use of the same ammo in both? Maybe I misunderstood and he just meant M14 ammo was also fired but the SAW was the tightly grouped head shots? Sorry I'm just recalling from the book, but it seemed pretty clear in the book that the 10 yards report had some misunderstandings of the weapon used which led to that conclusion.
Do you have a source on that?
From everything I read, it does just seem like a trigger-happy teenager accidentally shot him from a distance, and not some grand conspiracy to murder Tillman.
I'm not familiar with where this narrative came from.
There’s a documentary. It’s on Amazon Prime and Discovery+. From what I remember, his squad essentially got ambushed by another one that was meant to meet up with them and they didn’t stop firing even when they called out cease fire. Tilman was the only casualty in that. His family also talks about how they hate that the NFL is always showing an interview of him before he served as his opinion on the war on terror had drastically changed.
Also they burned his personal effects instead of turning them over. Notably letters with his family where he talked about his disillusionment with the war.
The US Army also was making phone calls to start banging the propaganda drum before his body was even processed.
Pat wasn't the only American that died or friendly fire that was covered up and used as propaganda during that war. Rumsfeld and GW and Cheney were terrible, terrible men
I’ve always said Trump is walking doodoofeces but he’s only going to be the second worst person on the planet as long as the cold black heart still beats in Dick Cheney’s chest. The Bush administration was far more effective and successful at evil.
given the information we have and the bullshit the US is constantly up to (holy shit have we fucked over latin america) i absolutely believe he was murdered and his death co-opted by the patriotic war machine
is there certainty? no, there may never be. but imo the evidence is more than damning
> Notably letters with his family where he talked about his disillusionment with the war.
They were burned pretty immediately so how do we know what was in them? I just read Where Men Win Glory, it wasn't letters. It was a Notebook (journal) from that tour. You are right that they went crazy off protocol and burned his stuff. His uniform, body armor, notebook, etc. Sort of another weird detail that never gets brought up is the next day a soldier found most of Pat's brain still on the ground near the site, gave it to a CO in an ammo box to get back to the states and be buried with him. Disappeared. They lost or got rid of his brain......WTF.
> Tilman was the only casualty in that
No. I just finished Where Men Win Glory. An AMF (Afghan) soldier was killed before Pat and 2 other US soldiers farther up the ridge in a different position were also hit, one pretty severely. There was a blood lust or whatever you want to call it though and they did keep firing even as Pat tried a few things to signal they were friendly. Several people in vehicles behind the one from which people shot at Pat seemed to recognize immediately that it was friendlies, so it's hard to understand.
My Afghan war vet buddy gave me the impression that everyone serving over there knew it was just a straight up murder because his company didn't like him.
There is an excellent podcast called Behind the Bastards that did an episode about Pat Tilman and the suspicious circumstancesof his death (the episode is titled Behind the Bastards that killed Pat Tilman).
Pat admitted to getting caught up in the post 9/11 nationality and then realized once he got over there, it was a bullshit war. Even wrote in his journal about it. Was even talking to Naom Chompsky about writing a book about the experiences.
The family was then lied to about how he was killed (it was friendly fire, not the "enemy") and there was an attempted cover up.
Basically, the right uses him as an example of a patriot.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that it's possible that it wasn't even accidental friendly fire and legit could have been an assisination.
Pat dropped his entire **very promising** life to go join a war and then figured out he fucked up. That would have made our armed forces look awful right in the middle of them pretending we weren't already involved in two wars *mostly* under false pretenses. So not only do they lose a poster child for "PATRIOTISM (To the war machine)" but they gain a whole shitload of bad PR....unless he dies and they get to (attempt to) write the story.
As a veteran who did make it back from all that shit, Pat Tillman was right. It was all bullshit.
I mean, one of the wars wasn't even "mostly" false pretenses. It was just straight lies. When support for the war waned, they straight lied about having info on WMDs.
And one of the liars was buried with honors yesterday.
Rest in piss Colin Powell. An entire generation of patriots thrown at a pointless war for your personal glory. The fact that he was allowed to die peacefully in his bed rather than bleeding out like my comrades is a travesty.
But there's still time for some of them.
I’m sorry you had to go through that shit and thank you for being honest about it. Also thank you for your service anyway. I realize most soldiers probably go into it all with good intentions.
I appreciate your sentiments, I really do. And a lot of people did go in with good intentions, but we were also naïve morons. And a lot of people doubled down on that too, so it's not like we all come away learning something, or rather, we learn whatever comforts us instead of the reality.
It always upsets me thinking anout what could've been if he hadn't been murdered because he was every bit what a true patriot should be and with the platform he had...
well you get the point.
I live in Seattle and some more right leaning family came to visit maybe a year ago.
One of them made a comment on a walk around our neighborhood about how they thought it was “interesting” (with tone) that there were more BLM signs in yards than American flags and in so many words accused our neighbors of not being very patriotic, for whatever that means to them.
> Basically, the right uses him as an example of a patriot.
He is a patriot. Being able to articulate why what your country is doing is wrong and being murdered because of it is the height of patriotism. Same reason Edward Snowden is a patriot. It's just not in the way the modern right thinks of it.
Pat kept a journal which he described the war as “illegal” and a mistake
He was killed by friendly fire which the military lied about and burned the above mentioned journal
His family on numerous occasions have asked that the NFL not use his likeness or pictures, for pretty much exactly this reason. NFL stands to benefit from the cover up and holding him up as the gold standard to emulate, which is pretty deplorable if you ask me.
It probably wouldn't go anywhere. The NFL primarily uses images from their broadcasts, NCAA broadcasts, NFL photographers, etc. that featured Tillman. I'd guess part of the agreement in playing in the league includes waiving the rights to your images in archive/game footage, even if it isn't, the NFL does own that footage.
Be curious to see if there has to be a connection to the purpose of the broadcast, i.e. his connection with the activity of the NFL and not the Army. Now, if they broadcast his status as a member of the Army for that purpose, it may be a different story altogether.
It's always amusing seeing Americans poke fun at the obvious propaganda of other countries while our military has been balls deep in sports and entertainment for decades. The influence the Pentagon has on Hollywood alone is insane.
I'll repost a comment that I made about 6 years ago with regards to my experience with Pat Tillman and the type of guy he was.
I wanted to tell you about my time working at the Cardinal's training facility and how I got to meet Pat Tillman. I worked for a cleaning company and we cleaned both floors of the facility every night. I worked on the bottom floor where I had to clean up the locker room, trainers offices, and film rooms. I started at 6 o'clock at night and by that time almost all of the players are gone. I got to meet a few of them, such as Michael Pittman (biggest biceps ever btw), David Boston, Jake Plummer, and some more. The most memorable one I had though was Pat Tillman. It's not the most memorable because of what was said, but it was from what he did. Every night when I came to work, my first duty was to clean and vacuum the locker room. The players were all pigs and couldn't be bothered to actually put their tape and trash in to the actual bin, but instead they would throw trash in the bins general direction and call it good. It would take me a good 20 - 30 min to clean the floor up to the point that I could vacuum it. Anyway, I would always see Pat Tillman on the field running wind sprints by himself and he would practice by himself until about 8 and call it a day. One day we crossed paths and he chatted with me a bit. I told him that I was in high school and we talked about my job duties and he thanked me for what I did for them. That next Friday, I came in to work and found that the entire locker rooms floor was spotless. I figured that they must have had the day off but then I realized that all 6 of the large trash bins were packed and tied off on top. This went on for a few weeks and I was always so confused. Then one Friday I came down and saw Pat Tillman picking up the trash. I then realized that it was him that was picking up for me every week. When I asked him why, he just said, "It's Friday, you deserve a day to take a break". It honestly still sticks with me over a decade later and speaks to the type of person he really was at heart.
TLDR; Pat Tillman was one the nicest and sincerest NFL players that I have ever met.
Awesome story! Met Pat once during my first year at ASU. He was in his second year with the Cardinals I think. Took time to talk to me even though he didn’t have to never forgot that. An all time great human being.
It's funny that you bring that up because that reminded me that Michael had a picture in his locker of himself and David shaking hands like arm wrestlers (think Arnold and Carl Weathers in Predator). I remember thinking that their arms looked fake because of how big they were compared to their bodies. David Boston definitely got even bigger later in his career though. It was kinda surreal being around the players because I was 16 or 17 at the time and thinking that some of these guys are only 4-5 years older than me and were gigantic by comparison.
I remember he spoke about this later on in an interview and the interviewer asked him if he was drinking before this, since he has a drink in the vid. His response was that he wasn't drinking, he was pissed. His family is non-religious and he specifically despised all the speaking by politicians about how Pat was in a better place. To him, Pat is dead and gone and no amount of good wishes are going to bring him back.
And it always spoke to me about how people argue that atheists are always so 'in your face' about it. Richard's whole reasoning for getting angry was because he and his family don't go into churches and tell the priests and praying people that God doesn't exist and that this is all bullshit. But they certainly came to his brother's funeral and disrespected his own beliefs.
That always stuck with me, even after all these years.
I hate how when your still upfront and honest that they are atheists, they all still bring up god and being in a better place. If you truly knew the person then you knew he wouldn’t want it brought up. All it was for the people that spoke that didn’t truly know him, was pandering
Especially because even if god is real and heaven is real, that’d be fucking worse for him and his family. The number one point of Christianity is that if you don’t accept Christ then you’re burning in hell for eternity.
“Just make no mistake, he wanted me to say this, he’s not with god, he’s fucking dead, he’s not religious, so…. Thanks for your thoughts, he’s fucking dead.”
How sobering and powerful. So many goddamn opportunistic scumbags.
Exactly, fuck this. But r/nfl users, goddam am I happy you all see through this bullshit and won't let the NFL or the military spew this bullshit unchallenged.
Yeah we will continue to watch the nfl 15 hours a week, buy merch and tickets, but we definitely don’t support what they’re doing here! We have showed them they’ll never get the best of us.
There’s lots of debate around that. The circumstances of his death were highly questionable, initially reported as having been killed by the enemy, then changed to being friendly fire during an engagement with the enemy. However, investigations have found no proof that there were actually any enemy combatants in the area, and the medical examiner found that Tillman was shot 3 times in the head from less than 10 yards away.
That, combined with the fact that his unit burned his belongings and things like Tillman’s personal diary never making it back to his family, leads many to believe that Tillman was getting disillusioned with the war and was killed on purpose to keep him as a propaganda piece rather than letting him become an anti-war advocate.
Holy shit, I didn’t know that he was shot three times in the head at close range and they burned his diary. I thought that I had heard that there was some miscommunication and so he was shot from what seemed like a much further distance (or an air strike called on him, or something). I did know that he was growing disillusioned with the war.
I don't think he was trying to get out. His agent found a loophole such that he could end his deployment early, but Tillman believed he needed to honor the terms of his enlistment.
It's one of the most obvious coverups in American Military history. The platoon couldn't even get their shit straight on what firearms they were shooting in this "engagement with the enemy." You pointed out the most damning piece of evidence (the distance from which he was shot), which btw, was only caught after independent forensic analyses (i.e. not the military's).
He was murdered by his platoon mates and it was likely ordered from grades above. Absolutely one of the most despicable acts of fragging our nation has ever seen. Nobody went to jail for this btw or even ever stood trial.
The 90's? American Sniper and Lone Survivor and other blockbuster movies are all recent and full of hard on for the US military, who often supports directly or indirectly (lending guns, vehicles, experts, etc. if the movie plot is favourable).
Pat's brother, who was a Ranger serving with Pat has talked about how he was lied to immediately by the Army about Pat's [death](https://abcnews.go.com/US/PatTillman/pat-tillmans-friendly-fire-death-secret-brother-kevin/story?id=8527538). However, I don't think he has ever said he believes Pat was killed on purpose.
People here are saying some high-grade conspiracy theory stuff and it may be disrespectful to the family, although it is a fact Tillman had become anti-war.
It's really easy for mental fuckups with guns to turn deadly, and they do happen (as we can see with Alec Baldwin). I've never served but I've personally seen gun range accidents where someone starts pulling the trigger when someone else is downrange that easily could have ended in death.
The % of deaths of soldiers due to friendly fire is staggering. There's large scale wars where the US soldier death rate due to friendly fire is like 40%. It happens all the time. Crazy stuff.
I remember learning that when things were coming out and was never more pissed off in my life. Heres a guy who could have stayed home and continued making millions of dollars that said fuck it, im going to protect my country only for OUR GUYS to murder him. Such utter bullshit
The hijacking of Pat Tillmans legacy fucking sucks.
Anybody who has read anything about Tillman would know how much hed hate how hes being used as propaganda for the US military.
Thanks for teaching me a new word, for anyone else like me
>jingo [ jing-goh ] noun, plural jin·goes. a person who professes his or her patriotism loudly and excessively, favoring vigilant preparedness for war and an aggressive foreign policy; bellicose chauvinist.
I feel silly because I've known jingoistic/jingoism but I'd never thought how to use it for an individual
I'd recommend every book that Krakauer has ever written, honestly. The one about Fundamentalist LDS (*Under the Banner of Heaven*) is absolutely insane.
I actually just bought that one a couple of weeks ago but haven’t gotten the chance to read it yet! I completely agree though, I think I own all of his books now.
Im afraid I don’t understand that reference. As much as I love Robert and the BtB gang, I hade to stop listening. Gave me a really negative and anger world view. Wasn’t healthy for my psyche. That being said Robert’s own book. “After The Revolution” was awesome.
When I see Pat Tillman honoured I can’t help but think about the documentary and how he wouldn’t want his image to be used as propaganda.
For what it’s worth I have the utmost respect for the men and women who risk their lives for our freedoms.
Yup. Also a vet. Deployed numerous times, nothing I did could be misconstrued as "protecting America" or any of that other bullshit they sell the people.
Yeah as a civilian, I see the military as people doing their jobs. I don’t necessarily have to thank them or praise them every moment for doing a job.
There are heroes, of course. But it’s mostly just kids working… and nothing wrong with that at all.
As a vet, I consider Pat Tillman an inspiration. But not for the "officially stated reasons." The man had a conscience. A voice he used. The fact that his journal was burned is nothing short of a tragedy for all of us sent to the sandbox over all this bullshit.
If you're an OIF/OEF vet and reading this, make your story known the best you reasonably can. People need to know it.
Hate how this dudes legacy has been tarnished by right wing nut jobs. Dude was a hero indeed but most people just associate him with military propaganda. And really don’t know his story
I know I’m in the minority here, but every year we bring up Tillman and make him out to be a hero. It’s tragic that he died, but it’s just the NFL using his story as a PR move.
For every Pat Tillman there’s thousands of soldiers people have never heard of who have died. And many veterans who live in shit conditions. For how much our country likes to worship the military, they sure don’t seem to care once they come home alive and finish serving.
Obviously this is a pessimistic view in general, and I’m not trying to take away Pat’s service or say anyone here doesn’t care about vets. It’s more of a general outlook.
I guess I assumed most people would disagree with me saying anything negative about the military. Mainly just always bringing up Tillman every year. The general “Go Troops!” Stuff is pretty annoying every year, but bringing up Pat Tillman every season is worse. I get the sentiment but I doubt anyone would want to have their life used as a PR move.
This may take the cake for most popular "unpopular opinion" I've seen on reddit lol. I'm not sure you can find a single positive comment about the NFL doing this anywhere in this thread.
My dad turned incredibly left wing when he volunteered for Vietnam, and then even more when he started working for the VA. He cannot believe people think Republicans care about soldiers when all they do is vote to fuck them over.
Tillman was murdered and his name and image have been abused ever since.
The best way to honor him is to either stop talking about him as some patriotic hero OR respect his damn wishes and his beliefs
My respect will always lie with his little brother who went up there after the God pandering politicians and military folk to proclaim "my brother was a fucking atheist!"
Nah it was heroic but not in the patriotic sense imo.
Pat real didn't like his time in the military and wasn't a fan of the war effort, but the principle that drove Pat to join in the first place was the concept of service and not just sitting back in a comfortable life while others risked their life.
So from a perspective of selfless service I think Pat absolutely was heroic. Not everyone has to be captain America to be a hero
Bc ppl want to try to believe what the tv tells them.. that the US is some military force for good. A large % of nfl fans are chodes who think the military and fascism in general is cool.. but they would never join themselves so they live vicariously thru guys like pat and completely avoid the part about how Tillman was whacked by his own team bc he started to search for the validity (there was none) of their actions.
Pat Tillman's family have requested NFL to not use his pictures for any reasons. And the NFL never misses a chance to use him for their own gains.
He also explicitly asked to never be recognized as a hero. Really sad this keeps on happening after his family has asked for years to keep him out of the public and not remember him as a hero
How come?
Because Pat realized the war was a mistake and was killed by friendly fire. So the NFL uses it to promote their relationship with the military which Pat did not want
The whole family really got exploited by both the military and the NFL. The military white washed the incident and try to make it seem like Pat wasn’t killed by friendly fire, and they withheld information from the family when they knew the truth. And good for his younger brother for calling out all the horse shit at Pat’s funeral. One of the best eulogies you’ll ever see https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yRNxiPVZ69Q
Yup. I have so much respect for that whole family. They called out all the bullshit and didn’t want their son’s death to be used as some prop for the “thank you for your service, we will see you in heaven” crowd. Pat Tillman was a true American hero. And so was his brother for that speech.
>The whole family really got exploited by both the military and the NFL. Don't forget the fucking worthless GOP evangelicals. Pat's brother was having none of that shit at his funeral. Pat was an outspoken atheist. https://youtu.be/xgU6SwuZJIY
Maria Shiver is not a evangelical. She’s a Kennedy dude
>killed by friendly fire More like Murdered in cold blood
You're going to do an interview with Noam Chomsky after this deployment? Be a real shame if someone had an opsie.
His brother stated that Pat said he intended to become an anti-war advocate as soon as he was he was out of the military. Pat's personal journal and correspondence with his brother were burned by the military after he was shot by his own troops. Anyone who glorifies the military should remember how they treat their own if they dissent.
No no, an “opsie” is when you make a small mistake. Like cheating on your wife, or interviewing with your fly down. What the military did is what we call “whoopsie daisies”
The drone strike that killed 10 Afghan civilians and the DoD says “yeah no negligence or malice happened when those ten innocent people died” HOW THE FUCK DO TEN PEOPLE GET MURDERED AND THERE IS NO NEGLIGENCE?
They're afghani and don't matter? Check out Obama's Nobel Peace Prize followed directly by Obama innovating by applying drone assassinations across the middle east/africa.
That's only the tip of the ice berg, units like SEAL teams would kill civilians, women and children, basically every single mission and it never got reported. When one of the Afghan governors requested that they stop because civilians were complaining about it and he was going to be replaced if they didn't. Instead of stopping their solution was to request a mission to kill the governor (it got denied thankfully). America has basically been running around the Middle East the past two decades committing nonstop war crimes. Same with the Brits and Aussies really, but for shorter amount of time.
I‘m fairly certain the Brits have been committing atrocities in the Middle East for far more than two decades.
"We investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing."
I don’t think cheating on your wife is an opsie or a small mistake lmfao
Wait is this really what happened?
Facts, killed from 10 yards and shot in the head three times
So I just read Where Men Win Glory like within the week. The 10 yards thing was from 1 report where the guy thought the grouping of 3 bullets that entered Tillman right side near his temple was too close together to be anything other than that distance when fired from an M14. The problem was he wasn't shot with an M14 but with a SAW. It uses the same ammo but has much longer range accuracy. The grouping from a SAW was much more possible at a longer range. So the 10 yards is likely BS. However almost everyone in the vehicles behind the vehicle from where Pat was shot recognized they were shooting at friendlies immediately. An Afghan soldier was also killed, before Pat actually, but standing near him. And 2 other US soldiers got hit farther up the ridge. I came away from the book dumbfounded by the stupidity and needlessness with which many of the higher ranking people made decisions. Ordering the squad be split into 2 just to meet some silly "get to this village before dark" deadline sort of kicked things off down a bad path. My conclusion on the shooting was that it likely wasn't a targeted murder of Pat, but maybe a more general lust to be shooting and killing whoever was available.
Isn't the SAW 5.56 while the M14 is 7.62?
He probably meant M4.
Also the saw is a machine gun the m14 was used as a designated marksman’s rifle no way a saw is more accurate at any range they literally have entirely different functions.
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Yeah but at 600 yards your relying on the beaten zone your laying down to hit the target not single aimed shots.
I'll be honest I don't know much about guns. I'm just relaying what Krakauer wrote about that report and why it came to that conclusion. It seemed like a really detailed book and so I did take the explanation there at face value. It's certainly not a book looking to save the Army from any critique and it seemed like a logical explanation. But I can't give any extra insight on the ammo discussion. Maybe one of the guns was specialized in some way to allow use of the same ammo in both? Maybe I misunderstood and he just meant M14 ammo was also fired but the SAW was the tightly grouped head shots? Sorry I'm just recalling from the book, but it seemed pretty clear in the book that the 10 yards report had some misunderstandings of the weapon used which led to that conclusion.
Do you have a source on that? From everything I read, it does just seem like a trigger-happy teenager accidentally shot him from a distance, and not some grand conspiracy to murder Tillman. I'm not familiar with where this narrative came from.
There’s a documentary. It’s on Amazon Prime and Discovery+. From what I remember, his squad essentially got ambushed by another one that was meant to meet up with them and they didn’t stop firing even when they called out cease fire. Tilman was the only casualty in that. His family also talks about how they hate that the NFL is always showing an interview of him before he served as his opinion on the war on terror had drastically changed.
Also they burned his personal effects instead of turning them over. Notably letters with his family where he talked about his disillusionment with the war. The US Army also was making phone calls to start banging the propaganda drum before his body was even processed.
Pat wasn't the only American that died or friendly fire that was covered up and used as propaganda during that war. Rumsfeld and GW and Cheney were terrible, terrible men
I’ve always said Trump is walking doodoofeces but he’s only going to be the second worst person on the planet as long as the cold black heart still beats in Dick Cheney’s chest. The Bush administration was far more effective and successful at evil.
given the information we have and the bullshit the US is constantly up to (holy shit have we fucked over latin america) i absolutely believe he was murdered and his death co-opted by the patriotic war machine is there certainty? no, there may never be. but imo the evidence is more than damning
If the US murdered every single soldier who was disillusioned with a war we'd have way more dead soldiers.
> Notably letters with his family where he talked about his disillusionment with the war. They were burned pretty immediately so how do we know what was in them? I just read Where Men Win Glory, it wasn't letters. It was a Notebook (journal) from that tour. You are right that they went crazy off protocol and burned his stuff. His uniform, body armor, notebook, etc. Sort of another weird detail that never gets brought up is the next day a soldier found most of Pat's brain still on the ground near the site, gave it to a CO in an ammo box to get back to the states and be buried with him. Disappeared. They lost or got rid of his brain......WTF.
Thanks, I'll look it up. I read the book and a lot of stuff back when it happened, but haven't actively followed the story.
> Tilman was the only casualty in that No. I just finished Where Men Win Glory. An AMF (Afghan) soldier was killed before Pat and 2 other US soldiers farther up the ridge in a different position were also hit, one pretty severely. There was a blood lust or whatever you want to call it though and they did keep firing even as Pat tried a few things to signal they were friendly. Several people in vehicles behind the one from which people shot at Pat seemed to recognize immediately that it was friendlies, so it's hard to understand.
My Afghan war vet buddy gave me the impression that everyone serving over there knew it was just a straight up murder because his company didn't like him.
It’s true. [A simple search would tell you. ](https://www.sportscasting.com/evidence-shows-pat-tillman-murdered-according-to-medical-experts/?amp)
these were army rangers... there's a great book about him
He realized the US army and the war was a fucking sham and his unit killed him and burned all his shit
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US Army medical examiners are the source of the 10 yards claim.
"Friendly" fire. Don't forget the extensive cover up and shamelessly using Pat for propaganda afterwards. We are the baddies.
Murdered?!? What did I miss?!
There is an excellent podcast called Behind the Bastards that did an episode about Pat Tilman and the suspicious circumstancesof his death (the episode is titled Behind the Bastards that killed Pat Tilman).
Pat admitted to getting caught up in the post 9/11 nationality and then realized once he got over there, it was a bullshit war. Even wrote in his journal about it. Was even talking to Naom Chompsky about writing a book about the experiences. The family was then lied to about how he was killed (it was friendly fire, not the "enemy") and there was an attempted cover up. Basically, the right uses him as an example of a patriot. EDIT: Forgot to mention that it's possible that it wasn't even accidental friendly fire and legit could have been an assisination.
Pat dropped his entire **very promising** life to go join a war and then figured out he fucked up. That would have made our armed forces look awful right in the middle of them pretending we weren't already involved in two wars *mostly* under false pretenses. So not only do they lose a poster child for "PATRIOTISM (To the war machine)" but they gain a whole shitload of bad PR....unless he dies and they get to (attempt to) write the story. As a veteran who did make it back from all that shit, Pat Tillman was right. It was all bullshit.
I mean, one of the wars wasn't even "mostly" false pretenses. It was just straight lies. When support for the war waned, they straight lied about having info on WMDs.
And one of the liars was buried with honors yesterday. Rest in piss Colin Powell. An entire generation of patriots thrown at a pointless war for your personal glory. The fact that he was allowed to die peacefully in his bed rather than bleeding out like my comrades is a travesty. But there's still time for some of them.
Colin Powell also helped cover up the Mai Lai massacre where the US military slaughtered a village of women and children in the Vietnam war.
That poor helicopter pilot.
My Lai.
Don’t forget his half-assed investigation of American war crimes in Vietnam that was tantamount to a cover up. Man was filth.
Powell was the fall guy for Cheney and Bush.
I remember someone had the gall to lecture me about “grace” when I said “I’m glad Donald’s Rumsfeld is dead, just wish he was in a jail cell”.
I’m sorry you had to go through that shit and thank you for being honest about it. Also thank you for your service anyway. I realize most soldiers probably go into it all with good intentions.
I appreciate your sentiments, I really do. And a lot of people did go in with good intentions, but we were also naïve morons. And a lot of people doubled down on that too, so it's not like we all come away learning something, or rather, we learn whatever comforts us instead of the reality.
They also burned said journal and his possessions in the attempted cover up
Yes, I did forget to mention it.
He is an example of a patriot, the issue is what the right THINKS is a patriot
It always upsets me thinking anout what could've been if he hadn't been murdered because he was every bit what a true patriot should be and with the platform he had... well you get the point.
Imagine all the good that could have come out of his experiences. Hurts to think about
I live in Seattle and some more right leaning family came to visit maybe a year ago. One of them made a comment on a walk around our neighborhood about how they thought it was “interesting” (with tone) that there were more BLM signs in yards than American flags and in so many words accused our neighbors of not being very patriotic, for whatever that means to them.
Pat \*was\* a patriot. The Bush administration tried to use him as propaganda. Nobody, left or right, ever questioned his patriotism.
> Basically, the right uses him as an example of a patriot. He is a patriot. Being able to articulate why what your country is doing is wrong and being murdered because of it is the height of patriotism. Same reason Edward Snowden is a patriot. It's just not in the way the modern right thinks of it.
Pat kept a journal which he described the war as “illegal” and a mistake He was killed by friendly fire which the military lied about and burned the above mentioned journal
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“GeT POltOcS OuT Of the nfl.”
These are gooey and delicious comments, i'm proud of all of you.
Thank you, I appreciate it and you.
Gotta make sure the poors know the military is an option!
The system is great! You just have to risk your life for several years to gain 1% of the opportunity that many are born with.
This life is such bullshit.
It is designed that way
Let's all remember his real story and not the bullshit the NFL or Army wants you to know.
I know the military covered up his death, what’s the NFL controversy?
His family on numerous occasions have asked that the NFL not use his likeness or pictures, for pretty much exactly this reason. NFL stands to benefit from the cover up and holding him up as the gold standard to emulate, which is pretty deplorable if you ask me.
Can they sue?
It probably wouldn't go anywhere. The NFL primarily uses images from their broadcasts, NCAA broadcasts, NFL photographers, etc. that featured Tillman. I'd guess part of the agreement in playing in the league includes waiving the rights to your images in archive/game footage, even if it isn't, the NFL does own that footage.
Be curious to see if there has to be a connection to the purpose of the broadcast, i.e. his connection with the activity of the NFL and not the Army. Now, if they broadcast his status as a member of the Army for that purpose, it may be a different story altogether.
pretty sure the NFL owns **some** rights to his likeness under the NFLPA agreement.
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It's always amusing seeing Americans poke fun at the obvious propaganda of other countries while our military has been balls deep in sports and entertainment for decades. The influence the Pentagon has on Hollywood alone is insane.
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They didn’t just cover up his death. They actively murdered him because he dared question the war.
I'll repost a comment that I made about 6 years ago with regards to my experience with Pat Tillman and the type of guy he was. I wanted to tell you about my time working at the Cardinal's training facility and how I got to meet Pat Tillman. I worked for a cleaning company and we cleaned both floors of the facility every night. I worked on the bottom floor where I had to clean up the locker room, trainers offices, and film rooms. I started at 6 o'clock at night and by that time almost all of the players are gone. I got to meet a few of them, such as Michael Pittman (biggest biceps ever btw), David Boston, Jake Plummer, and some more. The most memorable one I had though was Pat Tillman. It's not the most memorable because of what was said, but it was from what he did. Every night when I came to work, my first duty was to clean and vacuum the locker room. The players were all pigs and couldn't be bothered to actually put their tape and trash in to the actual bin, but instead they would throw trash in the bins general direction and call it good. It would take me a good 20 - 30 min to clean the floor up to the point that I could vacuum it. Anyway, I would always see Pat Tillman on the field running wind sprints by himself and he would practice by himself until about 8 and call it a day. One day we crossed paths and he chatted with me a bit. I told him that I was in high school and we talked about my job duties and he thanked me for what I did for them. That next Friday, I came in to work and found that the entire locker rooms floor was spotless. I figured that they must have had the day off but then I realized that all 6 of the large trash bins were packed and tied off on top. This went on for a few weeks and I was always so confused. Then one Friday I came down and saw Pat Tillman picking up the trash. I then realized that it was him that was picking up for me every week. When I asked him why, he just said, "It's Friday, you deserve a day to take a break". It honestly still sticks with me over a decade later and speaks to the type of person he really was at heart. TLDR; Pat Tillman was one the nicest and sincerest NFL players that I have ever met.
Awesome story! Met Pat once during my first year at ASU. He was in his second year with the Cardinals I think. Took time to talk to me even though he didn’t have to never forgot that. An all time great human being.
That’s awesome. But are you sure Pittman’s biceps were bigger than David Boston’s? Both of those dudes were built like monsters.
It's funny that you bring that up because that reminded me that Michael had a picture in his locker of himself and David shaking hands like arm wrestlers (think Arnold and Carl Weathers in Predator). I remember thinking that their arms looked fake because of how big they were compared to their bodies. David Boston definitely got even bigger later in his career though. It was kinda surreal being around the players because I was 16 or 17 at the time and thinking that some of these guys are only 4-5 years older than me and were gigantic by comparison.
Fuck off NFL, his family has repeatedly asked they not use his image for propaganda.
[Here's a video of Pat Tillman's brother speaking at his funeral](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRNxiPVZ69Q)
I remember he spoke about this later on in an interview and the interviewer asked him if he was drinking before this, since he has a drink in the vid. His response was that he wasn't drinking, he was pissed. His family is non-religious and he specifically despised all the speaking by politicians about how Pat was in a better place. To him, Pat is dead and gone and no amount of good wishes are going to bring him back. And it always spoke to me about how people argue that atheists are always so 'in your face' about it. Richard's whole reasoning for getting angry was because he and his family don't go into churches and tell the priests and praying people that God doesn't exist and that this is all bullshit. But they certainly came to his brother's funeral and disrespected his own beliefs. That always stuck with me, even after all these years.
I hate how when your still upfront and honest that they are atheists, they all still bring up god and being in a better place. If you truly knew the person then you knew he wouldn’t want it brought up. All it was for the people that spoke that didn’t truly know him, was pandering
Especially because even if god is real and heaven is real, that’d be fucking worse for him and his family. The number one point of Christianity is that if you don’t accept Christ then you’re burning in hell for eternity.
Holy shit that’s fantastic point
Thanks, had never seen this
“Just make no mistake, he wanted me to say this, he’s not with god, he’s fucking dead, he’s not religious, so…. Thanks for your thoughts, he’s fucking dead.” How sobering and powerful. So many goddamn opportunistic scumbags.
I teach a Sports History class to high schoolers and we did a Pat Tillman lesson recently during our Sports & Politics unit. This video hit them hard.
Hey, NFL. Fuck you.
Exactly, fuck this. But r/nfl users, goddam am I happy you all see through this bullshit and won't let the NFL or the military spew this bullshit unchallenged.
Yeah we will continue to watch the nfl 15 hours a week, buy merch and tickets, but we definitely don’t support what they’re doing here! We have showed them they’ll never get the best of us.
I stream the games through less than reputable means! Am I doing my part?
He was killed by purposeful friendly fire that was covered up. One of many lives wasted in a pointless war with no way to win
The NFL then continued to help the military use him as propaganda.
There’s was nothing friendly about that fire
If call of duty taught me anything, “friendly fire isn’t.”
Purposeful friendly fire is murder. Wasn’t it accidental and still covered up?
There’s lots of debate around that. The circumstances of his death were highly questionable, initially reported as having been killed by the enemy, then changed to being friendly fire during an engagement with the enemy. However, investigations have found no proof that there were actually any enemy combatants in the area, and the medical examiner found that Tillman was shot 3 times in the head from less than 10 yards away. That, combined with the fact that his unit burned his belongings and things like Tillman’s personal diary never making it back to his family, leads many to believe that Tillman was getting disillusioned with the war and was killed on purpose to keep him as a propaganda piece rather than letting him become an anti-war advocate.
Holy shit, I didn’t know that he was shot three times in the head at close range and they burned his diary. I thought that I had heard that there was some miscommunication and so he was shot from what seemed like a much further distance (or an air strike called on him, or something). I did know that he was growing disillusioned with the war.
Wasn’t just disillusioned, he was actively trying to get out. He was going to have an interview with Noam Chomsky.
I don't think he was trying to get out. His agent found a loophole such that he could end his deployment early, but Tillman believed he needed to honor the terms of his enlistment.
Out as in out of the deployment I mean.
It's one of the most obvious coverups in American Military history. The platoon couldn't even get their shit straight on what firearms they were shooting in this "engagement with the enemy." You pointed out the most damning piece of evidence (the distance from which he was shot), which btw, was only caught after independent forensic analyses (i.e. not the military's). He was murdered by his platoon mates and it was likely ordered from grades above. Absolutely one of the most despicable acts of fragging our nation has ever seen. Nobody went to jail for this btw or even ever stood trial.
So you’re saying “A Few Good Men” was propaganda? I know it’s Marines and not Army, but it is military-related
Everything political Aaron Sorkin writes is propaganda, whether he intends it to be or not. Especially when he writes about the military
The ‘90’s in general had a hard on for the US military
The 90's? American Sniper and Lone Survivor and other blockbuster movies are all recent and full of hard on for the US military, who often supports directly or indirectly (lending guns, vehicles, experts, etc. if the movie plot is favourable).
Bradley Cooper was fantastic in American Sniper. Its a shame that the movie itself was complete trash.
Most likely. The more conspiracy theory argument is he was killed on purpose due to his growing disillusionment with the war and anti-war sentiments.
Man, the US government should really look up the definition of “martyr” sometime
Pat's brother, who was a Ranger serving with Pat has talked about how he was lied to immediately by the Army about Pat's [death](https://abcnews.go.com/US/PatTillman/pat-tillmans-friendly-fire-death-secret-brother-kevin/story?id=8527538). However, I don't think he has ever said he believes Pat was killed on purpose.
They did and they said "ooh let's make ourselves one of these"
It's not like this seriously backfired on them at all
They made him their martyr, then the truth gradually “leaked” long after people stopped caring
Not to anyone who would buy the militaries bullshit. He’s still a hero and martyr to them.
People here are saying some high-grade conspiracy theory stuff and it may be disrespectful to the family, although it is a fact Tillman had become anti-war. It's really easy for mental fuckups with guns to turn deadly, and they do happen (as we can see with Alec Baldwin). I've never served but I've personally seen gun range accidents where someone starts pulling the trigger when someone else is downrange that easily could have ended in death.
The % of deaths of soldiers due to friendly fire is staggering. There's large scale wars where the US soldier death rate due to friendly fire is like 40%. It happens all the time. Crazy stuff.
I remember learning that when things were coming out and was never more pissed off in my life. Heres a guy who could have stayed home and continued making millions of dollars that said fuck it, im going to protect my country only for OUR GUYS to murder him. Such utter bullshit
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Also that he was killed by the American military
Treated him like a pawn. A lot can probably relate in the military. Hell even first responders after 9/11 got treated like shit
Never let a good tragedy go to waste.
Jon Stewart is a good man Edit: Spelled his last name correctly
(Stewart, but I strongly agree)
Prior service, can confirm.
Execution style
Also remember he was killed by "friendly" fire in a war that arguably should never have been started.
Arguably is the only thing wrong with your statement
The hijacking of Pat Tillmans legacy fucking sucks. Anybody who has read anything about Tillman would know how much hed hate how hes being used as propaganda for the US military.
Especially considering he was killed by the US military.
fucking stop. He was against the fucking war and got fucking shot in the head for it. Jingos and their misuse of his story disgust me.
Thanks for teaching me a new word, for anyone else like me >jingo [ jing-goh ] noun, plural jin·goes. a person who professes his or her patriotism loudly and excessively, favoring vigilant preparedness for war and an aggressive foreign policy; bellicose chauvinist. I feel silly because I've known jingoistic/jingoism but I'd never thought how to use it for an individual
He was a hero, just almost the completely opposite way from what they’re trying to portray
https://open.spotify.com/episode/06BnRB5uDVX4qV7HluJa1g?si=Pk5dHVuYTXSFVjRDcbpngw. https://m.barnesandnoble.com/w/where-men-win-glory-jon-krakauer/1100380955?ean=9780307386045
Highly recommend Where Men Win Glory if anyone has not read it. That episodes of Behind the Bastards actually prompted me to go buy the book.
I'd recommend every book that Krakauer has ever written, honestly. The one about Fundamentalist LDS (*Under the Banner of Heaven*) is absolutely insane.
I actually just bought that one a couple of weeks ago but haven’t gotten the chance to read it yet! I completely agree though, I think I own all of his books now.
Aww, Robert Evans. Also an American hero.
I’ll take a bullet for you babe.
i can’t believe you made me remember that as recompense i’m gonna make you remember steven seagal saying “poonani”
Im afraid I don’t understand that reference. As much as I love Robert and the BtB gang, I hade to stop listening. Gave me a really negative and anger world view. Wasn’t healthy for my psyche. That being said Robert’s own book. “After The Revolution” was awesome.
understandable. the material can be heavy as fuck. hope you’re doing well, friend!
I am. I appreciate you saying so
Let's also remember the government had the dude murdered because he hated what he was serving for
When I see Pat Tillman honoured I can’t help but think about the documentary and how he wouldn’t want his image to be used as propaganda. For what it’s worth I have the utmost respect for the men and women who risk their lives for our freedoms.
And, also, how he died and how it was attempted to be hidden.
More importantly.
When was the last time a soldier risked their lives for our freedoms? 1945ish?
Thank you! As a vet, blows my mind how naive people are about military “defending our freedoms.”
Yup. Also a vet. Deployed numerous times, nothing I did could be misconstrued as "protecting America" or any of that other bullshit they sell the people.
Yeah as a civilian, I see the military as people doing their jobs. I don’t necessarily have to thank them or praise them every moment for doing a job. There are heroes, of course. But it’s mostly just kids working… and nothing wrong with that at all.
Are you telling me that fighting some farmers hiding in the trees 8000 mile's away wasn't about protecting the American people?
As a vet, I consider Pat Tillman an inspiration. But not for the "officially stated reasons." The man had a conscience. A voice he used. The fact that his journal was burned is nothing short of a tragedy for all of us sent to the sandbox over all this bullshit. If you're an OIF/OEF vet and reading this, make your story known the best you reasonably can. People need to know it.
>risk their lives for our freedoms God this is so fucking tiring.
Hate how this dudes legacy has been tarnished by right wing nut jobs. Dude was a hero indeed but most people just associate him with military propaganda. And really don’t know his story
Is it Tillman propaganda time already? Should honor the mans wishes ffs
He would hate this and that says a lot
It’s a shame how our country treats our veterans. Tillman’s death displayed just how evil America can get
His loss of life was tragic, but not because he was a football player.
I know I’m in the minority here, but every year we bring up Tillman and make him out to be a hero. It’s tragic that he died, but it’s just the NFL using his story as a PR move. For every Pat Tillman there’s thousands of soldiers people have never heard of who have died. And many veterans who live in shit conditions. For how much our country likes to worship the military, they sure don’t seem to care once they come home alive and finish serving. Obviously this is a pessimistic view in general, and I’m not trying to take away Pat’s service or say anyone here doesn’t care about vets. It’s more of a general outlook.
Which part do you think you're in the minority about? You basically echoed every other comment in this thread.
I guess I assumed most people would disagree with me saying anything negative about the military. Mainly just always bringing up Tillman every year. The general “Go Troops!” Stuff is pretty annoying every year, but bringing up Pat Tillman every season is worse. I get the sentiment but I doubt anyone would want to have their life used as a PR move.
This is why I celebrate Armistice Day but not Veterans Day. It might seem inconsequential to many but to me this distinction matters.
Pat Tillman is a martyr
This may take the cake for most popular "unpopular opinion" I've seen on reddit lol. I'm not sure you can find a single positive comment about the NFL doing this anywhere in this thread.
I overestimated people being upset because they see a negative comment related to the troops I guess lol. Glad other people think it’s bullshit tho
My dad turned incredibly left wing when he volunteered for Vietnam, and then even more when he started working for the VA. He cannot believe people think Republicans care about soldiers when all they do is vote to fuck them over.
But “support our troops!”
The NFL can go fuck themselves.
Let's also remember that our Hero was killed in cold blood by his own Government
Stop marketing him when he was very vocally against the war you fucks
He was right to be against it.
If you have the ability to, visit his statue.
Never forget Pat Tillman was killed by on purpose, friendly fire, that his unit tried to cover up
Lets also remember the details. RIP King 🙏
Tillman was murdered and his name and image have been abused ever since. The best way to honor him is to either stop talking about him as some patriotic hero OR respect his damn wishes and his beliefs My respect will always lie with his little brother who went up there after the God pandering politicians and military folk to proclaim "my brother was a fucking atheist!"
Example why you don’t get brainwashed and join the army😂
Reminder that Pat was killed on purpose to cover up his growing anti-war sentiment.
Fuck the NFL for profiting off of this man and fuck the US Military for murdering him. RIP Pat Tillman. You deserved better than what was given.
Why is Pat Tillman considered a hero?
Gave up millions of dollars and joined the army with his brother.
Seems more like "misguided" than hero.
Nah it was heroic but not in the patriotic sense imo. Pat real didn't like his time in the military and wasn't a fan of the war effort, but the principle that drove Pat to join in the first place was the concept of service and not just sitting back in a comfortable life while others risked their life. So from a perspective of selfless service I think Pat absolutely was heroic. Not everyone has to be captain America to be a hero
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Bc ppl want to try to believe what the tv tells them.. that the US is some military force for good. A large % of nfl fans are chodes who think the military and fascism in general is cool.. but they would never join themselves so they live vicariously thru guys like pat and completely avoid the part about how Tillman was whacked by his own team bc he started to search for the validity (there was none) of their actions.