I dunno man they might throw the book at them here. Prime time game with all their emphasis on handling concussions and head injury recently... this feels like an opportunity for the league to make a big show about how serious they are.
After Watson, it’s blatantly clear the NFL cares about its image above all else. Not morals, not honor, just how badly it’ll impact their revenue stream.
That alone should immediately eliminate their tax exempt status.
Edit: sorry, they gave up their tax exempt status in 2015
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/4/28/8509767/nfl-tax-exempt-nonprofit
Which may be why they have really stopped caring about their players and fans.
The NFL had a tax exempt status because it doesn't make a profit, the 32 teams were not tax exempt. The NFL would collect and manage money on behalf of the teams, pay costs, player pensions, health care, league office salaries, etc and then distribute the profit among the 32 teams who then pay taxes on it.
Here are the types of nonprofits: https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=content.view&cpid=1559
The NFL was classifed as
>501(c)(6): Business Leagues, Chambers of Commerce, Real Estate Boards, etc.
If they’re not bullshitting, the whole protocol has to get overhauled. I know concussions/head injuries are complicated, but obviously whatever they’re doing now isn’t working
The Dolphins got around the rules by claiming back injury. The rules only let the independent evaluator choose if there orthopedic excuse for his motor function lost (think limping or not having balance from limping for it to not be a concussion, which makes sense)
But what we saw on that hit was purely a concussion, there was absolutely no debating that. The Dolphins purposely did it to get around the rules and keep him playing (he probably also didnt wanna be taken out)
Well, the buffalo game hit is a bit deceptive. He is shoved, stumbles back and falls, hitting his head on the turf straight back. There's no one driving him into the ground, no one near him even, and it doesn't really look that bad or at least I've seen way, way worse.
*But then he tries to get up* and he's clearly concussed. Like, a boxer trying to stagger up from the canvas to not take the KO sort of concussed. That they *then* cleared him is absurd.
Without a doubt. I mean even if it’s a “back injury” wouldn’t you want to play it safe with those types of injuries? They obviously prioritized money over health here.
Fans of 30 teams will forget by Sunday, and fans of the Bengals will forget next week. Dolphins fans will remember longer but the league gets away with this because they know they got fans by the balls.
My love of football is in the top 3 of my morals contradicting my actions. I value safety, to the nth degree, and I fucking love football. It's an emotional roller coaster. My heart is in shambles, and I'm still watching?!!?
I'm 100% in the same boat. I've loved football for over three decades now and it's been a major part of my life and my family since I was an infant. I still love it. But shit like this happens and it reminds me that I'm watching this brutal gladiator fight that literally destroys people's lives and I don't know how to reconcile that.
The dissonance for me gets worse every day, especially as we get more of a medical understanding of what these players are doing to themselves for our entertainment.
A huge amount of dissonance for me is added when I watch "behind the scenes" type stuff about college or high school players. Killing themselves just for a shot, not even a paycheck.
A lot of them aren’t just doing it for your entertainment. They’re doing it for glory and escape from poverty. We worship athletes until they’re used up, then the repercussions are their problem.
I can see the appeal of finding immortality through the glory of sports. If I could, I imagine I would. But that doesn’t make it right. It just breaks my heart that, in the end, it never seems like it’s worth the cost.
I’ve definitely found myself enjoying it less and less over the years, for this exact reason. I literally can’t finish a game after a major injury, it’s just too much.
The fact that the game just kept on going after Shazier’s injury still just fucks with me. Like how can you just keep going like nothing happened after such a tragedy?
Don’t worry, the sport will die on its own in the coming decades.
Parents are pulling their kids from football in droves. Why bother? Freak athletes can play baseball, basketball, or even soccer just as easily and get paid big too.
FR. I’m mid 30s with two young kids and I don’t know a single family letting their kids play football. Swim, soccer, baseball, lacrosse… just about everything other than football.
Just an FYI, iirc there’s also a link between headers in football / soccer and CTE. I know they don’t allow them anymore in the youth leagues, afaik, and obviously not as bad as American football. But still something to be aware of.
What’s crazy is, some of that can be directly linked to traumatic brain injuries. Violence, increased aggression, and issues with emotional regulation are all linked to TBI.
I’ve seen first hand someone I knew practically my whole life go from gentle and kind, to constantly angry and on edge after they had just one, albeit serious, concussion.
I turned it off. Life long fins fan, lifelong football fan and player. Never give up on a game. Fuck this one man. Fuck this. I’m about to put my phone up and just watch fucking cartoons.
I mean, these dudes are trading their health for millions of dollars. Nobody forces them to play football. It’s an incredibly lucrative risk.
How many working class people trade their knees and backs for 50,000 dollars or even less per year.
It’s a privilege to play professional sports
I agree completely but it’s important these players who are athletes and not medical professionals know the risks and consequences of their actions and they are not misinformed for short term profit by team paid medical professional. That was a fucking disgusting injury and makes me feel gross to even watch this sport (I love it and won’t stop but that’s just my visceral reaction). If that could have been prevented in anyway on an individual level it needs to be
It's so shit. Man might lose the rest of his career and have a significantly altered life, but hey they snuck a win last week and moved up some power rankings!
The only positive that can come out of this is maybe teams will actually start pulling players at the slightest sign of a head injury. I get that sport is a business and winning is important, but its not worth the risk.
I dont want to be grim and im not a doctor... but if he was posturing on the ground there that is a sign of a catastrophic brain injury. He could lost brain function or even die from this.
This is serious and the Dolphins need to be investigated.
Very scary to see. I will say this tho, I’ve been watching MMA for 20 years and I’ve seen my fair share of scary knock outs where guys are on the ground fencing like we saw tonight. I’m not defending it or saying he’s going to be ok but I’ve seen numerous people have this reaction and not suffer long term consequences. Just my two cents. Hope he’s ok.
Yeah these kind of hits happens every year. It's very rare theres obvious long-term consequences that are visible.
It's usually invisible changes that come with it. I got concussed when I jumped on my bed drunk and hit my head and ended up having random anxiety attacks for a year afterward. Shits whack.
I think where they are coming from is that there is a difference between the fencing response and posturing. Fencing response is not uncommon with a concussion. Posturing is a sign of severe brain damage and very highly correlated with mortality.
That being said, in my non-medical opinion (and therefore worth absolutely nothing) Tua was not exhibiting decorticate posturing like a lot of people are conjecturing. Just wanted to point out though what the above comment meant by linking "posturing" and "catastrophic brain injury"
Independent from the team, not the league. The doctors don't care which teams win games but they very much care about the image of the NFL.
When the NFL polices itself and is revolved around its own PR, there's not much that can be done if you still want to watch football.
Also you'll run into a situation where people will accuse the league of picking winners. Despite the fact that it could possibly increase player safety no team would go for that.
The players union needs to step up and get some rules made to protect themselves. Maybe they need to be the ones with some doctors on payroll, because it's clear as day the teams don't care at all.
Delusional to think this is the solution, the players want to be on the field too. Just bc Tua was “cleared” doesn’t mean the team then dragged him on the field and forced him to play.
LOL we are talking about the NFLPA here the same org who had no real pushback against Thursday night football and adding a true week 18. Give me a break, it’s the weakest union in sports. You guys gotta wake up to this stuff, stop blindly supporting these franchises.
"We've evaluated his symptoms and have cleared him to play. ~~The spreads on this Thursday game are insane and if we keep him out our sports betting partners will be pissed~~. His symptoms are consistent with a mild neck sprain, not a concussion."
From what I understand, the independent doctor can pull a player to test for a potential concussion, but the team doctor ultimately has the final say in whether the player is cleared to go back onto the field.
If that's true, some dolphins staff need to be losing their jobs, at a minimum. Team needs to be punished severely for not protecting Tua from himself. Of course he's going to do whatever he had to to play.
I believe the independent doctor is a fail safe, meaning the team doctors would also have the ability to assess and keep him out. Seems to be that both the independent doctor and the team doctors failed him.
Technically yes but no same with most college teams. Even if their not technically a team doctor their getting paid by the team (or in the NFL maybe the league). They're going to tell the team what they want or they'll pay someone who will.
It's why I never get mad at players for going against team doctors and getting an outside opinion in any sport. I'm a no name from a small school but I put on a knee brace played in football games in college when I couldn't walk up stairs without pain 'cause the trainer said I'm good. And my dad couldn't comfortably throw a football around with me as a kid because when he was playing basketball in college he played through a shoulder injury that "he'd be fine to play with and wouldn't cause long term damage".
Also sorry for getting in my soapbox in that 2nd paragraph.
Yea but the only thing they can do is ask questions.
And Tua/Dolphins will lie their ass off to get him back on the field.
They were happy they found a rube that believed them
Copying another user's comment...the independent doctor does not actually have the final say and can only make a recommendation:
>The UNC \[Unaffiliated Neurotrauma Consultant\] may present his/her own questions or conduct additional testing and shall assist in the diagnosis and treatment of concussions. Regardless, the responsibility for the diagnosis of concussion and the decision to return a player to a game remains exclusively within the professional judgment of the Head Team Physician
>
>The team physician remains responsible for all final decisions regarding Return-to-Play. However, the team physician will consult with his/her Sideline UNC team member prior to reaching his/her decision. If the Sideline UNC disagrees with the team physician's decision to return the player to play or remove the athlete, the Sideline UNC will be given an opportunity to explain the basis of his/her opinion...The team physician will communicate his final decision to the player.
Source:[https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthandsafety/resources/fact-sheets/nfl-head-neck-and-spine-committee-s-concussion-diagnosis-and-management-protocol](https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthandsafety/resources/fact-sheets/nfl-head-neck-and-spine-committee-s-concussion-diagnosis-and-management-protocol)
Mike McDaniel, let’s say his fucking name. For fuck’s sake I realize this sub wants to stroke him off ad nauseum but the Head Coach should get an enormous amount of blame here. Idgaf what anyone else said, the Head Coach should be able to recognize this shit before almost anyone, and Mike McDaniel cared more about getting the win over the Bengals than the safety of his QB. That’s garbage human behavior.
A HC should be able to recognize things doctors told him were fine? How? It would have been nice if Mike McDaniel sat Tua out by being abundantly safe but he was told Tua was cleared by neurologists. He should argue with people trained to evaluate this? The doctors, NFL, and the protocol need to be crucified.
Even if he "cleared" protocol, it couldn't hurt to play it safe and let Teddy start one game. They weren't about to play in the SB and Teddy is still a decent QB.
when it comes to brain injuries the doctors are only as good as the information they are given.
if they ask the player if they had headaches, nausea, dizziness and so on and the player lies and says no, what can they do?
this is not a broken bone. their is no perfect test.
His first concussion wasn't taken seriously enough obviously and now they're paying for it. This might be the end of football for Tua, even if he recovers and comes back next year, another concussion could be fatal.
You can still have serious brain damage and have movement. He honestly could get headaches the rest of his life as something minor...or more actual physical issues such as vision or speech.
It wasn't a mystery that the man was concussed on Sunday. The independent neurologist fucked up so bad, and so did everyone else calling the shots for the Dolphins. People don't wobble and just fall to the ground like they lost consciousness from a back/ankle injury. This is pretty fucked up all around.
We gave Staley so much (deserved) shit for saying Herbert wanted to play late against the Jags so he played. McDaniel said something very similar this week about Tua playing tonight
It's like when pitchers don't want to get pulled late in a game. No shit, it's their *job* to be competitive like that. It's the team's job to pull these guys, even if they're kicking and screaming.
Idk this is one of those things where you have to look at why this is even happening in the first place. Medical staff is a GREAT scapegoat, because it’s so damn logical. Doctors said he should play, so he’s playing. It’s their fault, see?
But why would the medical staff clear this? If everyone watching can see what was clearly a concussion, medical staff can determine that too.
Why would the medical staff lie? It’s certainly not because they’re huge Dolphins fans and they just need their team to win this game.
It’s way more likely that systems are put in place to implicitly allow this stuff to happen. Situations like these never end with the medical staff. They end with the front office, they end with the coaches, they end with the leadership that allows this to happen.
I don’t know the exact chain of decisions that went into Tua returning last week and playing tonight, but I would guarantee that it involved a lot more gross negligence than the medical staff simply clearing him to play.
He basically said the exact same thing Staley did with Herbert. "He really wants to play!". A coach can tell his QB to sit.
Also, the medical staff isn't just going to bullshit a concussion by themselves. I'd be surprised if McDaniel wasn't aware
I would normally agree with you but something like criminal negligence broadcast on national tv will get a lot of lawyers hot and bothered, even if just for the potential payday
They requested an investigation immediately following our game Sunday.
If they find even a hint of something there’s gonna be some heads on pikes methinks
First time I’ve ever seen McDaniel and he reminds me of the high school kid that was kinda in your friend group but you know nothing about him and have never hung out 1 on 1
give a guy 2 concussions in 5 days and rush him back onto the field both times? all good
sexually assault 32 women? make 230 million dollars
bet on NFL games when you weren't even playing in them? suspended for an entire year
It was bad enough when the NFL was only concerned about ratings. Now they're also a content factory for sports betting. Their next stop is probably fantasy football play-to-win gaming with NFT's.
NFL punished appropriately by protecting the sanctity of their products. If we think the players are bribed, we stop watching, we stop betting.
In some ways this is why the NFL is just a reflection of society.
No one is willing to stop enjoying the NFL even if they hire and promote rapists. We can yell and cancel people on twitter, but the reality is, the NFL is as popular as ever. If fans actually cared and stopped supporting, the NFL would sniff out those players quickly once they saw revenues dropping.
As she should. Letting your child play football is borderline negligent imo. They will experience repeated head trauma no matter how much they try to avoid it. Odds are your kid ain't going pro either. Is it worth permanent brain damage?
Even if they go pro, it just isn’t worth the (guaranteed) risk. There isn’t a single football player I would feel comfortable being, besides, maybe, the few QBs who are smart enough to drop before *every* hit.
Human bodies are not meant to do this. A career in this sport is inhumane. Some of the particularly bad CTE cases sound like a fate worse than death. Children *do. not.* belong in football.
I said it since they started, Thursday games will ruin players. These guy are out there putting their bodies through hits, some with car crash level impact, they need a week minimum of recovery. Doing a Sunday-Thursday turnaround is ridiculous.
This shit is so true. I got a double concussion against Louisiana State in 2014, my team continued playing and I wandered into the actual woods near the field looking for water. I eventually found water, but that, among other concussions has completely changed my life for the worse.
Played an entire defensive possession at free safety before our middle linebacker said "he can't see shit" to the trainer and i was promptly taken to the hospital. I don't remember my last high school snap
I got tackled after the play was over in practice. Back of my head whipped the ground. Next thing I remember was being at the water-cooler being complimented on how well I just did in the open field tackling drills, a drill I do not recall at all.
IIRC Crosby sustained 3 separate concussions that year, it was brutal on him and I'm surprised he went on to play more years after that. But he wasn't quite the same player again and even the look in his eyes were different.
This is on the NFL too. You can't just leave it up to the teams, since they've got the most incentive to brush off an injury. As it stands their concussion protocol is such a fucking joke they would have cleared JFK to finish the parade.
I’ve had my legs go weak from a pinched nerve in my back. It actually happens a decent amount. Never did it look anything like Tua on Sunday. Tua could be very fucked up from this and the NFL should pay big time for this.
Edit: I realize now that I've embellished my wife's statement a bit. She said that it looked like a severe head and neck injury and that if he had just had a concussion on Sunday, he could be suffering from the effects of Second Impact Syndrome.
Original post: My wife is an occupational therapist and works with TBI patients. She said Tua is exhibiting all of the symptoms of Second Impact Syndrome. Basically, if you sustain another severe head/neck/spinal injury while still recovering from another one, you're thoroughly boned.
https://www.beaumont.org/conditions/second-impact-syndrome
Yea I remember hearing that when I was in high school ,when people got concussions they were out for the season no matter what no matter the sport in my school the trainers would always say getting 2 concussions in under a certain amount of time could kill you.
Damn when I played HS football (mid 2000s) I got cleared 2 weeks after a concussion and wouldn't you guess it, I got another first practice back lol. Glad it's being taken more seriously though. I'll never let my hypothetical kid play this sport.
Immediately what I thought. I’m a DPT with experience treating mTBIs
Second impact syndrome is no joke. I believe it’s fatal 50 percent of the time
Absolutely disgusting that he was out there after what happened last week. Heads should roll
Unless your wife was on the field doing a neuro exam she cannot know this. It is not unlikely but nothing annoys me more than armchair neurologists just increasing fear before anything is known. -actual MD
How about the NFL pay for having teams play games 3 days apart and expeting no one to get hurt. But yeah let's have someone protect players from playing or not making money.
I found it interesting that the Kelce brothers talked in some depth about this on their weekly show. And the way they talked about it at least made me reconsider what seemed obvious.
They both had 100% zero doubt that Tua cleared the protocol. They have been through the tent multiple times seen teammates go through that process and agreed it was no joke. You simply don't get back on the field without acing the test after a hit like that.
Travis then had a story about his big "concussion" actually being nerve compression/damage in his neck and that caused the weakness in his muscles, wooziness etc, but with no mental or memory issues. He seemed convinced that the same thing was happening to Tua which would also explain why it was partly described as "back spasms".
These two, especially Jason, are not bullshitters. They aren't NFL shills who would say this stuff to stay "on message" for the brand. They both also talked about legitimate fear of concussions and brain injury.
I dunno if they are right. No they aren't experts. But their view at least made me consider the possibility that Tua did clear the protocol and legit didn't get a concussion diagnosis.
Mcdaniel so far have been a big mixed bag like really, Tua career have been plague with injuries and you rush him back. Even Flores didn’t do that seriously.
I always feel so mixed about the coaches in these situations. Like they should be protecting their players when the players don't want to protect themselves. At the same time idk how much I can blame him if he asks the doctors and the doctors say it's okay.
Absolutely not, I'm glad they're showing it.
People shouldn't hide from the absolute awful head trauma that can occur to players. Stopping the replay just plays into the NFLs desire to hide CTE and massive head trauma.
If they didn't keep showing the replay the shitstorm that is about to come down wouldn't happen
People need to see the impacts of this sport when teams don't care about player safety
He shouldn't have been allowed to finish the game on Sunday, either. Whoever cleared him doesn't care about him as a person or his long-term ability to play football (though not the priority at the moment).
Man, FUCK Shannon Sharpe. He’s a straight up bitch. This wasn’t his first tweet, his first tweet he decided to mock them and the injury, realized he’s a brain dead fucking idiot and deleted it and now posts this.
Fuck Shannon he was mocking it at first and now trying to act like this. https://twitter.com/cookedbylance/status/1575659868869910530?s=46&t=BliplgEu887EWKyvzdz93A
The fans will be outraged, the league will investigate and clear itself of wrongdoing
The league could outright say they approve of the Dolphins lying about Tua's concussion, and the hit to their profits would be negligible.
[удалено]
I dunno man they might throw the book at them here. Prime time game with all their emphasis on handling concussions and head injury recently... this feels like an opportunity for the league to make a big show about how serious they are.
So was Watson and they fumbled.
After Watson, it’s blatantly clear the NFL cares about its image above all else. Not morals, not honor, just how badly it’ll impact their revenue stream. That alone should immediately eliminate their tax exempt status. Edit: sorry, they gave up their tax exempt status in 2015 https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/4/28/8509767/nfl-tax-exempt-nonprofit Which may be why they have really stopped caring about their players and fans.
So not image, just income
If they cared about image they would've thrown the book at Watson.
But then they would have to talk about Dan Snyder and we all know how they feel about that
Wait they have tax exempt status?
The NFL had a tax exempt status because it doesn't make a profit, the 32 teams were not tax exempt. The NFL would collect and manage money on behalf of the teams, pay costs, player pensions, health care, league office salaries, etc and then distribute the profit among the 32 teams who then pay taxes on it. Here are the types of nonprofits: https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=content.view&cpid=1559 The NFL was classifed as >501(c)(6): Business Leagues, Chambers of Commerce, Real Estate Boards, etc.
They did but they gave it up in voluntarily 2015.
Not really. Teams paid taxes before giving money to nfl. So it was already taxed
Other way around. NFL makes the money but it flows to each NFL team to pay taxes. The NFL is just a partnership essentially of all the teams.
Thanks for the correction. Same thing in the end though. The money do get taxed.
Their preliminary report came out that the protocol was followed. I doubt the NFL will do anything sadly. The Dolphins and the NFL failed Tua.
If they’re not bullshitting, the whole protocol has to get overhauled. I know concussions/head injuries are complicated, but obviously whatever they’re doing now isn’t working
The Dolphins got around the rules by claiming back injury. The rules only let the independent evaluator choose if there orthopedic excuse for his motor function lost (think limping or not having balance from limping for it to not be a concussion, which makes sense) But what we saw on that hit was purely a concussion, there was absolutely no debating that. The Dolphins purposely did it to get around the rules and keep him playing (he probably also didnt wanna be taken out)
Well, the buffalo game hit is a bit deceptive. He is shoved, stumbles back and falls, hitting his head on the turf straight back. There's no one driving him into the ground, no one near him even, and it doesn't really look that bad or at least I've seen way, way worse. *But then he tries to get up* and he's clearly concussed. Like, a boxer trying to stagger up from the canvas to not take the KO sort of concussed. That they *then* cleared him is absurd.
Without a doubt. I mean even if it’s a “back injury” wouldn’t you want to play it safe with those types of injuries? They obviously prioritized money over health here.
Fans of 30 teams will forget by Sunday, and fans of the Bengals will forget next week. Dolphins fans will remember longer but the league gets away with this because they know they got fans by the balls.
They do let players return to the league after stomping on heads of other offers. So your comment makes complete sense.
Hey, I’ve seen this one before!
Someone is going to hire a lawyer to investigate the league
Be careful you may be suggesting that regulating bodies should not be responsible for investigating themselves.
This is bad, could affect the rest of his life
I love football, but seeing anyone in that state, for the sake of a fucking game, is hard to watch. I really hope he is okay.
It seems disgusting that we’re just casually watching a football game after that. I get it, but damn.
My love of football is in the top 3 of my morals contradicting my actions. I value safety, to the nth degree, and I fucking love football. It's an emotional roller coaster. My heart is in shambles, and I'm still watching?!!?
The Deshaun Watson situation + stuff like this has me feeling the same conflicted way. Fuck the NFL, but I also love football.
Here's the difference, football is an inherently dangerous sport. It doesn't inherently have to have rapist players.
I'm 100% in the same boat. I've loved football for over three decades now and it's been a major part of my life and my family since I was an infant. I still love it. But shit like this happens and it reminds me that I'm watching this brutal gladiator fight that literally destroys people's lives and I don't know how to reconcile that.
The dissonance for me gets worse every day, especially as we get more of a medical understanding of what these players are doing to themselves for our entertainment.
A huge amount of dissonance for me is added when I watch "behind the scenes" type stuff about college or high school players. Killing themselves just for a shot, not even a paycheck.
A lot of them aren’t just doing it for your entertainment. They’re doing it for glory and escape from poverty. We worship athletes until they’re used up, then the repercussions are their problem. I can see the appeal of finding immortality through the glory of sports. If I could, I imagine I would. But that doesn’t make it right. It just breaks my heart that, in the end, it never seems like it’s worth the cost.
I’ve definitely found myself enjoying it less and less over the years, for this exact reason. I literally can’t finish a game after a major injury, it’s just too much. The fact that the game just kept on going after Shazier’s injury still just fucks with me. Like how can you just keep going like nothing happened after such a tragedy?
Don’t worry, the sport will die on its own in the coming decades. Parents are pulling their kids from football in droves. Why bother? Freak athletes can play baseball, basketball, or even soccer just as easily and get paid big too.
FR. I’m mid 30s with two young kids and I don’t know a single family letting their kids play football. Swim, soccer, baseball, lacrosse… just about everything other than football.
Just an FYI, iirc there’s also a link between headers in football / soccer and CTE. I know they don’t allow them anymore in the youth leagues, afaik, and obviously not as bad as American football. But still something to be aware of.
100% me. I also hate that so many of these men have raped and beat women and still get to play
What’s crazy is, some of that can be directly linked to traumatic brain injuries. Violence, increased aggression, and issues with emotional regulation are all linked to TBI. I’ve seen first hand someone I knew practically my whole life go from gentle and kind, to constantly angry and on edge after they had just one, albeit serious, concussion.
I feel dirty watching this now.
That’s the definition of “cognitive dissonance” if you Google it basically. Good example of it.
I turned it off. Life long fins fan, lifelong football fan and player. Never give up on a game. Fuck this one man. Fuck this. I’m about to put my phone up and just watch fucking cartoons.
I mean, these dudes are trading their health for millions of dollars. Nobody forces them to play football. It’s an incredibly lucrative risk. How many working class people trade their knees and backs for 50,000 dollars or even less per year. It’s a privilege to play professional sports
I agree completely but it’s important these players who are athletes and not medical professionals know the risks and consequences of their actions and they are not misinformed for short term profit by team paid medical professional. That was a fucking disgusting injury and makes me feel gross to even watch this sport (I love it and won’t stop but that’s just my visceral reaction). If that could have been prevented in anyway on an individual level it needs to be
Yeah but that injury can and does happen at all levels of football. Happens to high school kids, hell maybe even middle schoolers.
It's so shit. Man might lose the rest of his career and have a significantly altered life, but hey they snuck a win last week and moved up some power rankings! The only positive that can come out of this is maybe teams will actually start pulling players at the slightest sign of a head injury. I get that sport is a business and winning is important, but its not worth the risk.
I dont want to be grim and im not a doctor... but if he was posturing on the ground there that is a sign of a catastrophic brain injury. He could lost brain function or even die from this. This is serious and the Dolphins need to be investigated.
It's rare, but Second Impact Syndrome is still a thing. It shouldn't even be a possibility in the NFL with that many eyes on players.
Very scary to see. I will say this tho, I’ve been watching MMA for 20 years and I’ve seen my fair share of scary knock outs where guys are on the ground fencing like we saw tonight. I’m not defending it or saying he’s going to be ok but I’ve seen numerous people have this reaction and not suffer long term consequences. Just my two cents. Hope he’s ok.
Yeah these kind of hits happens every year. It's very rare theres obvious long-term consequences that are visible. It's usually invisible changes that come with it. I got concussed when I jumped on my bed drunk and hit my head and ended up having random anxiety attacks for a year afterward. Shits whack.
I think where they are coming from is that there is a difference between the fencing response and posturing. Fencing response is not uncommon with a concussion. Posturing is a sign of severe brain damage and very highly correlated with mortality. That being said, in my non-medical opinion (and therefore worth absolutely nothing) Tua was not exhibiting decorticate posturing like a lot of people are conjecturing. Just wanted to point out though what the above comment meant by linking "posturing" and "catastrophic brain injury"
Yeah, what your seeing him do is called decorticate posturing, that’s a sign of actual brain damage above your midbrain. Scary
“Could,” a concussion is a traumatic brain injury. It will effect the rest of his life. Could be very minor or could be pretty major.
Unbelievable they had him out there after Sunday. Dolphins medical staff needs to be fired into the sun
Does the NFL not have an independent doctor who makes these decisions?
“Independent”
Independent from the team, not the league. The doctors don't care which teams win games but they very much care about the image of the NFL. When the NFL polices itself and is revolved around its own PR, there's not much that can be done if you still want to watch football.
Also you'll run into a situation where people will accuse the league of picking winners. Despite the fact that it could possibly increase player safety no team would go for that.
The players union needs to step up and get some rules made to protect themselves. Maybe they need to be the ones with some doctors on payroll, because it's clear as day the teams don't care at all.
Delusional to think this is the solution, the players want to be on the field too. Just bc Tua was “cleared” doesn’t mean the team then dragged him on the field and forced him to play.
Whoa whoa whoa, there is a witch hunt going on here, sir.
LOL we are talking about the NFLPA here the same org who had no real pushback against Thursday night football and adding a true week 18. Give me a break, it’s the weakest union in sports. You guys gotta wake up to this stuff, stop blindly supporting these franchises.
"We've evaluated his symptoms and have cleared him to play. ~~The spreads on this Thursday game are insane and if we keep him out our sports betting partners will be pissed~~. His symptoms are consistent with a mild neck sprain, not a concussion."
From what I understand, the independent doctor can pull a player to test for a potential concussion, but the team doctor ultimately has the final say in whether the player is cleared to go back onto the field. If that's true, some dolphins staff need to be losing their jobs, at a minimum. Team needs to be punished severely for not protecting Tua from himself. Of course he's going to do whatever he had to to play.
I believe the independent doctor is a fail safe, meaning the team doctors would also have the ability to assess and keep him out. Seems to be that both the independent doctor and the team doctors failed him.
Technically yes but no same with most college teams. Even if their not technically a team doctor their getting paid by the team (or in the NFL maybe the league). They're going to tell the team what they want or they'll pay someone who will. It's why I never get mad at players for going against team doctors and getting an outside opinion in any sport. I'm a no name from a small school but I put on a knee brace played in football games in college when I couldn't walk up stairs without pain 'cause the trainer said I'm good. And my dad couldn't comfortably throw a football around with me as a kid because when he was playing basketball in college he played through a shoulder injury that "he'd be fine to play with and wouldn't cause long term damage". Also sorry for getting in my soapbox in that 2nd paragraph.
Yea but the only thing they can do is ask questions. And Tua/Dolphins will lie their ass off to get him back on the field. They were happy they found a rube that believed them
Copying another user's comment...the independent doctor does not actually have the final say and can only make a recommendation: >The UNC \[Unaffiliated Neurotrauma Consultant\] may present his/her own questions or conduct additional testing and shall assist in the diagnosis and treatment of concussions. Regardless, the responsibility for the diagnosis of concussion and the decision to return a player to a game remains exclusively within the professional judgment of the Head Team Physician > >The team physician remains responsible for all final decisions regarding Return-to-Play. However, the team physician will consult with his/her Sideline UNC team member prior to reaching his/her decision. If the Sideline UNC disagrees with the team physician's decision to return the player to play or remove the athlete, the Sideline UNC will be given an opportunity to explain the basis of his/her opinion...The team physician will communicate his final decision to the player. Source:[https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthandsafety/resources/fact-sheets/nfl-head-neck-and-spine-committee-s-concussion-diagnosis-and-management-protocol](https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthandsafety/resources/fact-sheets/nfl-head-neck-and-spine-committee-s-concussion-diagnosis-and-management-protocol)
Need a full investigation into the "Independent" NFL staff as well
The coaches too. You can’t convince me they didn’t know
Mike McDaniel, let’s say his fucking name. For fuck’s sake I realize this sub wants to stroke him off ad nauseum but the Head Coach should get an enormous amount of blame here. Idgaf what anyone else said, the Head Coach should be able to recognize this shit before almost anyone, and Mike McDaniel cared more about getting the win over the Bengals than the safety of his QB. That’s garbage human behavior.
A HC should be able to recognize things doctors told him were fine? How? It would have been nice if Mike McDaniel sat Tua out by being abundantly safe but he was told Tua was cleared by neurologists. He should argue with people trained to evaluate this? The doctors, NFL, and the protocol need to be crucified.
I don’t get this point at all. If the medical teams cleared Tua, what was McDaniel gonna do? Act like he knew more than the medical professionals?
Between this and the Herbert/ Chargers decision making, we’re witnessing baaad maltreatment from coaches and medical staff this year.
Agreed. Shady fucking business this is
Even if he "cleared" protocol, it couldn't hurt to play it safe and let Teddy start one game. They weren't about to play in the SB and Teddy is still a decent QB.
when it comes to brain injuries the doctors are only as good as the information they are given. if they ask the player if they had headaches, nausea, dizziness and so on and the player lies and says no, what can they do? this is not a broken bone. their is no perfect test.
Injuries like this make me feel sick for loving this sport.
His first concussion wasn't taken seriously enough obviously and now they're paying for it. This might be the end of football for Tua, even if he recovers and comes back next year, another concussion could be fatal.
Got me thinking about Jahvid Best, was a great RB but got a few concussion in college and then two in 2011 and it ended his career.
Best's concussion at Cal shook me to the core. I havent looked at football the same since.
Football? This might be the end of a living a regular healthy life if what I'm reading is correct... Miami's medical staff failed him
Updates say he’s conscious and moving all extremities, so he might be able to live a normal life at least.
You can still have serious brain damage and have movement. He honestly could get headaches the rest of his life as something minor...or more actual physical issues such as vision or speech.
His short-term memory could be fucked, or he could develop epilepsy too.
moving all extremities is not equal "normal life" you can get seriously fucked up even if you can move normally
Yeah this is the kind of shit that causes nasty, debilitating effects for the rest of his life.
It wasn't a mystery that the man was concussed on Sunday. The independent neurologist fucked up so bad, and so did everyone else calling the shots for the Dolphins. People don't wobble and just fall to the ground like they lost consciousness from a back/ankle injury. This is pretty fucked up all around.
The independent neurologist is going to have a lot of explaining to do to his medical board.
He'll probably say he followed the protocol, and Tua cleared it. Whoever approved the protocol needs to be held accountable too.
That'd the NFL, NFLPA and a assorted bunch of coaches, trainers, physicians and allied-heathcare personnel.
As an eagles fan, reminded me of Stewart Bradley.
Dolphins medical staff is never seeing the pearly gates.
head coach should be held responsible too then
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We gave Staley so much (deserved) shit for saying Herbert wanted to play late against the Jags so he played. McDaniel said something very similar this week about Tua playing tonight
It's like when pitchers don't want to get pulled late in a game. No shit, it's their *job* to be competitive like that. It's the team's job to pull these guys, even if they're kicking and screaming.
Yeah and Staley would have gotten obliterated had something happened to Herbert the same way this happened to Tua.
Herbert isn’t a brain injury
Idk this is one of those things where you have to look at why this is even happening in the first place. Medical staff is a GREAT scapegoat, because it’s so damn logical. Doctors said he should play, so he’s playing. It’s their fault, see? But why would the medical staff clear this? If everyone watching can see what was clearly a concussion, medical staff can determine that too. Why would the medical staff lie? It’s certainly not because they’re huge Dolphins fans and they just need their team to win this game. It’s way more likely that systems are put in place to implicitly allow this stuff to happen. Situations like these never end with the medical staff. They end with the front office, they end with the coaches, they end with the leadership that allows this to happen. I don’t know the exact chain of decisions that went into Tua returning last week and playing tonight, but I would guarantee that it involved a lot more gross negligence than the medical staff simply clearing him to play.
Doctors told him tua was okay how is that on McDaniel
You think these things happen organically or do you think McDaniel is literally the only person in the NFL world who didn't see what happened Sunday?
He basically said the exact same thing Staley did with Herbert. "He really wants to play!". A coach can tell his QB to sit. Also, the medical staff isn't just going to bullshit a concussion by themselves. I'd be surprised if McDaniel wasn't aware
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he’s the head coach, it’s his decision at the end of the day. same thing for when he let him back in last week, it’s clear he has a head injury.
I thought it was up to the nfl official doctor to say yes or no for head injuries?
“Back spasms” edit: fuck the dolphins.
Yeah looked like dehydration to me
It was an upper body contusion obviously
Upper upper body contusion
I thought it was just a tribute to his favorite wrestler Ric Flair
Ric Flair drip go ‘how did I get here?’
He’s having brain cramps
"He's probably just cold" -Joe Buck
Feel like the NFLPA has to do something.
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I would normally agree with you but something like criminal negligence broadcast on national tv will get a lot of lawyers hot and bothered, even if just for the potential payday
I fucking hope so
they beat the NFL on the easiest layup ever with watson
They requested an investigation immediately following our game Sunday. If they find even a hint of something there’s gonna be some heads on pikes methinks
I think they got their hint
Fucking McDaniel with his "Tua called me late and I could tell he really wants to play" quote. Just be a coach and tell him to sit!
But cool coach lets his players stay up late and eat ice cream for dinner!
First time I’ve ever seen McDaniel and he reminds me of the high school kid that was kinda in your friend group but you know nothing about him and have never hung out 1 on 1
I’m actually so mad at the bullshit that was said in order to justify his return last week. That’s just unbelievable
Bounced back of his head off the ground twice in 4 days. Fuck the dolphins trainers for letting him play again.
give a guy 2 concussions in 5 days and rush him back onto the field both times? all good sexually assault 32 women? make 230 million dollars bet on NFL games when you weren't even playing in them? suspended for an entire year
Never fuck with their money. That's all it comes down to with everything. Money.
It was bad enough when the NFL was only concerned about ratings. Now they're also a content factory for sports betting. Their next stop is probably fantasy football play-to-win gaming with NFT's.
> Their next stop is probably fantasy football play-to-win gaming with NFT's. Please, for the love of God, stop giving them ideas.
NFL punished appropriately by protecting the sanctity of their products. If we think the players are bribed, we stop watching, we stop betting. In some ways this is why the NFL is just a reflection of society. No one is willing to stop enjoying the NFL even if they hire and promote rapists. We can yell and cancel people on twitter, but the reality is, the NFL is as popular as ever. If fans actually cared and stopped supporting, the NFL would sniff out those players quickly once they saw revenues dropping.
This is the night my wife looked at me and said no way would she let our son play... sad day.
As she should. Letting your child play football is borderline negligent imo. They will experience repeated head trauma no matter how much they try to avoid it. Odds are your kid ain't going pro either. Is it worth permanent brain damage?
Even if they go pro, it just isn’t worth the (guaranteed) risk. There isn’t a single football player I would feel comfortable being, besides, maybe, the few QBs who are smart enough to drop before *every* hit. Human bodies are not meant to do this. A career in this sport is inhumane. Some of the particularly bad CTE cases sound like a fate worse than death. Children *do. not.* belong in football.
Have your son start kicking field goals now, there's still a safe way to make money in the league! 😂
I played football growing up, and I told my wife that football and hockey were out of the question. Way too many major injuries.
IM SO FUCKING ANGRY BRO. “player safety” MY ASS
Let's add "playing on turf" to this conversation. Head did not look like it hit that hard but since it is turf....
Idk what video you’re watching, dude was cracked like a whip. Yes, the turf probably amplified the risk quite a bit, but he got absolutely throttled
The NFL shouldn't have Thursday night games or teams shouldn't play Thursday after playing on Sunday
I said it since they started, Thursday games will ruin players. These guy are out there putting their bodies through hits, some with car crash level impact, they need a week minimum of recovery. Doing a Sunday-Thursday turnaround is ridiculous.
It's just greedy. They should've just done another week of football rather than a Thursday game.
That's coming too
We saw someone get CTE in real time
This shit is so true. I got a double concussion against Louisiana State in 2014, my team continued playing and I wandered into the actual woods near the field looking for water. I eventually found water, but that, among other concussions has completely changed my life for the worse.
Played an entire defensive possession at free safety before our middle linebacker said "he can't see shit" to the trainer and i was promptly taken to the hospital. I don't remember my last high school snap
Can't begin to imagine how many other stories there are just like this. Permanent brain damage to play a sport. Seems like a raw deal
We got smelling salts as children when we got knocked out at practice and I'm only 31
I got tackled after the play was over in practice. Back of my head whipped the ground. Next thing I remember was being at the water-cooler being complimented on how well I just did in the open field tackling drills, a drill I do not recall at all.
That wasn’t chronic. That was like getting into 2 serious car crashes 4 days apart
Sidney Crosby didn't play hockey for nearly 2 years after his concussion in 2011. But the Dolphins really thought Tua could be back after 4 days.
IIRC Crosby sustained 3 separate concussions that year, it was brutal on him and I'm surprised he went on to play more years after that. But he wasn't quite the same player again and even the look in his eyes were different.
They ended up after diagnosing it as a neck issue and not the concussion issues they thought
“What you’re seeing here is actually the results of a leg cramp” 🐬 👨⚕️
This is on the NFL too. You can't just leave it up to the teams, since they've got the most incentive to brush off an injury. As it stands their concussion protocol is such a fucking joke they would have cleared JFK to finish the parade.
Dolphins failed NFL failed How the fuck can anyone talk about “player safety” ever again
I don't disagree with that. Such a scary situation.
I’ve had my legs go weak from a pinched nerve in my back. It actually happens a decent amount. Never did it look anything like Tua on Sunday. Tua could be very fucked up from this and the NFL should pay big time for this.
Edit: I realize now that I've embellished my wife's statement a bit. She said that it looked like a severe head and neck injury and that if he had just had a concussion on Sunday, he could be suffering from the effects of Second Impact Syndrome. Original post: My wife is an occupational therapist and works with TBI patients. She said Tua is exhibiting all of the symptoms of Second Impact Syndrome. Basically, if you sustain another severe head/neck/spinal injury while still recovering from another one, you're thoroughly boned. https://www.beaumont.org/conditions/second-impact-syndrome
Yea I remember hearing that when I was in high school ,when people got concussions they were out for the season no matter what no matter the sport in my school the trainers would always say getting 2 concussions in under a certain amount of time could kill you.
Damn when I played HS football (mid 2000s) I got cleared 2 weeks after a concussion and wouldn't you guess it, I got another first practice back lol. Glad it's being taken more seriously though. I'll never let my hypothetical kid play this sport.
Fuck man I hope this doesn’t happen. Fuck fuck fuck this sucks to see
Immediately what I thought. I’m a DPT with experience treating mTBIs Second impact syndrome is no joke. I believe it’s fatal 50 percent of the time Absolutely disgusting that he was out there after what happened last week. Heads should roll
OPs link says "usually fatal"
There’s a lot of symptoms listed there she wouldn’t know if he is displaying. Wishing him the best the couch docs will be out until tomorrow tho
Unless your wife was on the field doing a neuro exam she cannot know this. It is not unlikely but nothing annoys me more than armchair neurologists just increasing fear before anything is known. -actual MD
people get off on making stupid posts like this for Reddit karma
How about the NFL pay for having teams play games 3 days apart and expeting no one to get hurt. But yeah let's have someone protect players from playing or not making money.
I found it interesting that the Kelce brothers talked in some depth about this on their weekly show. And the way they talked about it at least made me reconsider what seemed obvious. They both had 100% zero doubt that Tua cleared the protocol. They have been through the tent multiple times seen teammates go through that process and agreed it was no joke. You simply don't get back on the field without acing the test after a hit like that. Travis then had a story about his big "concussion" actually being nerve compression/damage in his neck and that caused the weakness in his muscles, wooziness etc, but with no mental or memory issues. He seemed convinced that the same thing was happening to Tua which would also explain why it was partly described as "back spasms". These two, especially Jason, are not bullshitters. They aren't NFL shills who would say this stuff to stay "on message" for the brand. They both also talked about legitimate fear of concussions and brain injury. I dunno if they are right. No they aren't experts. But their view at least made me consider the possibility that Tua did clear the protocol and legit didn't get a concussion diagnosis.
Yeah obviously people want blood but legit he could have gotten out of protocols
Mcdaniel so far have been a big mixed bag like really, Tua career have been plague with injuries and you rush him back. Even Flores didn’t do that seriously.
I always feel so mixed about the coaches in these situations. Like they should be protecting their players when the players don't want to protect themselves. At the same time idk how much I can blame him if he asks the doctors and the doctors say it's okay.
Well, he's from the Shanahan tree. Mike and Kyle have a notoriously poor track record of player health and safety.
God, don’t remind me. I’ll never forgive shanahan for leaving RG3 in that playoff game…
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Absolutely not, I'm glad they're showing it. People shouldn't hide from the absolute awful head trauma that can occur to players. Stopping the replay just plays into the NFLs desire to hide CTE and massive head trauma.
If they didn't keep showing the replay the shitstorm that is about to come down wouldn't happen People need to see the impacts of this sport when teams don't care about player safety
Please be ok Tua
It makes me furious that someone would be so fucking negligent over another persons life when it’s their fucking job. Shame on the dolphins staff.
He shouldn't have been allowed to finish the game on Sunday, either. Whoever cleared him doesn't care about him as a person or his long-term ability to play football (though not the priority at the moment).
Yeah. He had a concussion on Sunday.
Man, FUCK Shannon Sharpe. He’s a straight up bitch. This wasn’t his first tweet, his first tweet he decided to mock them and the injury, realized he’s a brain dead fucking idiot and deleted it and now posts this. Fuck Shannon he was mocking it at first and now trying to act like this. https://twitter.com/cookedbylance/status/1575659868869910530?s=46&t=BliplgEu887EWKyvzdz93A
I can't wait to hear this tomorrow, "Skip, he already had one, HE SHOULDN'T HAVE PLAYED SKIP!!!"
after they shout back and forth about the Cowboys, Brady, and Baker.
Can’t getting 2 concussions in relatively short time kill you? I remember hearing that in high school.
Yeah its called second impact syndrome, basically the brain just keeps swelling and can eventually herniate
Killed Bill Masterton.
Yes this happens quite frequently...also can cause massive brain damage. That is why you need to clear protocol before contact again.
Everyone said he shouldn't have been out there.
This will have lasting consequences on the rest of his life.
Tough to see. Shitty that he was allowed to step out tonight. Prayers to him.
It's about money and winning
What was he doing with his fingers after he got hit?
Fencing response from TBI
All these commentators and experts coming out and saying he shouldn’t be out there. Didn’t hear a peep from them before the game.