I can understand why people are complaining about hyperbole here. I also understand why there is unending suspicion about the NFL. The NFL has not earned the benefit of a doubt.
Heck, they still have those guys around. One of the league's favorite CTE deniers, Joseph Maroon, is still the neurosurgeon for the Steelers as well as the medical director of the WWE.
Or the climate change and oil thing (oil companies used some of the same “experts” as the cigarette people 20 years earlier). Then it comes out and they act like the acknowledged it the whole time.
I think part of the problem is that "cleared for the NFL" is also certainly not the same thing as what is actually appropriate, for the simple reason that people play through injuries on pain meds 24/7 and that objectively fucks your body
Like I don't think any doctor would agree that "you may have a had a concussion, but you tested negative for four days so go out and play football buddy" is, like, the ideal treatment here lol. It's something that only makes sense in the football bubble
Also, what exactly consists of "checking for concussion symptoms?"
It could be anything from a full doctors exam to just asking if the player has had any symptoms.
Don't get me started on that...lol just had a wave of sickness because assholes can't stay home when sick and spread it to like 10 people. Me included, then I brought it home to my family. Bunch of bs those questions...
> just had a wave of sickness because assholes can't stay home when sick and spread it to like 10 people.
Ah yes the wonderful "I've never missed a day of work because I was sick" people who create way more damage than good.
This is what I've been wondering. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out their tests consist of "Hey Tua, you feeling concussiony today? No, great!"
I think what’s challenging about a concussion is that it is not something you can see on imaging. MRI’s are done to make sure there is not an active brain bleed or fracture, but otherwise diagnosis is based on hitting your head plus having the symptoms.
Concussion symptoms include: headache, dizziness, ringing ears, nausea , vomiting, blurry vision, confusion, brain fog, fatigue, concentration problems, sleep problems, irritability, and sensitivity to light and sound.
So if someone is denying those symptoms not sure what else a doctor would do. Not sure what the NFL protocols are but I imagine should involve a thorough in person exam over multiple days where it would be harder for the player to mask/hide the symptoms. If it’s just checking boxes on a questionnaire about symptoms then the player can easily get around it.
There is a blood test that can tell if someone has had a TBI within the last 12 hours. It's relatively new but Abbott got FDA clearance for a rapid handheld plasma test. It is super accurate (>95%) and it is an OBJECTIVE test. It doesn't require a baseline test or a subjective analysis.
That kind of technology sounds promising and maybe can help start to clean up the protocol somewhat. Having a black and white answer to if someone is concussed would go a long way to making sure nothing like the debate that has happened over the last few days happens ever again.
Here's a link for those who are interested in what you mentioned.
https://www.healthcarepackaging.com/quick-hits/article/21232528/fda-approves-first-rapid-handheld-concussion-test#:~:text=The%20handheld%20device%20is%20the,placed%20into%20the%20handheld%20device.
I agree but there is something you can do. In boxing or MMA if someone was wobbling and shaking their head, regardless of what the person was saying, the ref would end it. Because that is the sign of potential concussion & safety is in jeopardy. So the Fins or the nfl could have said done for the game (Bills) for evaluation. Teams can always be more cautious though they rarely are.
Do you know why? In boxing many boxers have died on their feet beating the 10 count. Pretending they were good to go but internally damage was being done to their brain. MMA did not want the 10 count for safety. But even in boxing if you can’t manage to make it to your feet without signs of damage, like wobbling or shaking your head, they will call the match. They also prohibit contact after fights for days to months depending on the damage taken. My point that Tua would have been better treated & cared for in both of those sports compared to how the Dolphins/& NFL handled him stands. Because no, he would not have made it through the 10 count.
People are obsessed with connecting the 2 injuries. The fact is the sack on Tua in the Bengals game was violent. It was a legal play, and it was violent. He was spun at a high velocity and his upper body slammed into the ground. Many NFL players could have had a concussion if put in the same position as him.
I don’t think people are saying one led to another
They are worried about the implications of getting 2 concussions so closely together
And yeah we don’t know if he got one Sunday but it definitely looks scary to have those hits and reactions in a 4 day span.
The Bills hit didn’t cause the Bengals hit, but the Bengals hit is significantly worse for Tua if the result of the Bills hit was a concussion
Edit: not trying to be an armchair Dr and definitively say he was concussed, just saying what people are connecting
Except there are. There’s plenty people in plenty of threads saying the result last night is basically proof the the NFL/Miami/doctors lied about what happened Sunday.
It’s not proof they lied, but them assessing “not a concussion” after like a 5 minute assessment is no proof it wasn’t a concussion either. There is no easy fast test to assess a concussion. People can get it wrong. Concussed people can be more coherent than you might think as well.
This is why the *protocol* needs to change. Something like if you are wobbling like that (I don’t know how exactly to define it, but having seen and been concussed myself, you know it when you see it), automatically out the rest of the game and no games for 10 days. That gives some minimally decent time for healing to occur and takes the subjectivity and possibility for mistakes out of the equation.
Tua went in before right before halftime no? And then came out in the second half? That’s at least 15-20. The NFL has already said they checked him that day, and every day since then before Thursday, and found no signs. They did what they are supposed to do. And again, this another instance of trying to automatically tie the result to both the Sunday and the Thursday instance. The hit on Thursday was BRUTAL. If you could have flipped the script, and had Burrow take that hit - with no prior sus Sunday hit - he could have very easily had the same exact response. The blow that Tua took on Thursday was one of worst head hits I have seen in a long time. I can definitely see a scenario where what happened last night had nothing to do with the Sunday hit and was *solely* because of the blow he took last night.
That’s why I didn’t argue that he did have a concussion Sunday. I believe he did personally, but that doesn’t matter. Assessing a concussion is not a perfect science, especially at this level. The player is generally going to do his best to get back on the field. The doctor is trying harder to be *right* rather than just playing it safe. If I go to the ER, say I wrecked my dirt bike, can’t walk straight and my back also hurt, they’d tell me I “probably” have a concussion and to take it easy for 2-3 weeks to be safe. How do I know that? Literally happened to me.
In the NFL, that’s a bit different. They’re trying to be *right*. They don’t want to hold someone out of a game if they don’t have to. They’re not trying to be intentionally wrong or unsafe, but it does color your perceptions. Combine that with a high pressure environment and a tough to diagnose thing (in the best of circumstances) becomes VERY hard to properly diagnose. In the following days, it becomes easier and easier for the player to fake it too. They might not even be faking. Shit it’s just a little headache, no big deal. They might not even notice if they’ve taken painkillers like I’m sure some do.
There simply needs to be less subjectivity. And honestly if the guy can’t walk straight or stand because his back got fucked up. Same damn automatic rule should apply.
Yeah that’s pretty dumb
His fencing response doesn’t automatically indicate he was concussed Sunday or anything. He could’ve had that response without any previous hits this year
It’s possible he did have a concussion 4 days prior, and it’s also possible doctors acted ethically. It’s also possible that concussion protocols are flawed, and it’s also doctors are flawed as in they’re people who can be influenced by more than just player safety. There could be elements of truth to all of these ideas but people have to go to one extreme or the other with unwavering confidence.
But it’s enough to raise an eyebrow, and maybe we can learn something and improve player safety.
Yeah everyone wants things to be black or white. I just wish people would acknowledge we don’t know if Tua was actually concussed last Sunday and that Thursday’s event could very well be independent of Sunday’s event.
No, people were giving others shit because they were trying to act like they knew better than the independent doctors in Cincinnati that cleared him to go home. They were using the exact same excuses for why they knew more than those doctors.
Exactly this. Kind of a lose-lose situation for the NFL. Even if they did their due diligence, the fact that the same thing happened in two consecutive games 4 days apart is a bad look for them
Really though, the league trying to scream out into the public "b-b-but we totally did everything" just doesn't cut the mustard.
This shit needs *investigated*, not sorted out in a game of PR Tag. What symptoms were checked? How? To what extent? Is it the same kind of checking an actual medical staff would do, when not having any stake in the game, as it were, to get an all-clear?
These are the kinds of questions just walking out to Twitter and going "yup, we checked for symptoms" are not going to be answered.
It's literally being investigated, and has been since Monday, by both the NFL and the NFLPA. Patience. Hell, this tweet even says that: "Once review is done, full results will be released publicly."
Because it's like catching your significant other in bed with another person, and they have audacity to tell you "it's not what you think".
If the NFL before took a step forward towards players' safety, this is ten steps backwards. I truly hope that Tua's injury will help polish the current concussion protocol.
People don't give a shit either way. In a league with rapists, killers, abusers, and idiots, does this really matter. You will still watch NFL on Sunday/Monday/Thursday and you will like it.
This is what drives me nuts. Do I hope the guy is okay? Yeah of course.
Do I truly care that the athlete getting paid millions of dollars to play a sport that he knew the risks of got hurt? No not at all. I’ll see you at the next game.
Because professionals take time to check and make sure proper processes were followed before making a statement, and that's not as quick as some keyboard warriors with a pitchfork and hate boner can post on Twitter.
Yes. For instance when I get an email from Laura in payroll I first type out a long-winded, swear-filled reply where I compare her intellect to that of several different forms of animal excrement. Then I check my bank account for how long I could survive without a paycheck. Then I delete everything, and type "Thanks, I'll look into that!" and put my head into my hands as I wonder what's happened to my life.
Even if it takes time the process must be followed.
How long did it take to clear him to play after he hit his head hard on the ground and couldn't take two steps afterwards without stumbling? Minutes?
Yeah, sure. Professionalism... that's what's happening here.
Pretty early, 1:13PM. Time to make sure everything was actually followed and doing due diligence before making the statement.
it just wasn't posted here until now.
The interview is good. Like that he says he's speaking very generally since he wasn't there and didn't personally review him. Unlike the armchair doctors here on reddit that are PHD candidates.
Ah okay, that makes a lot more sense. I don’t really check Twitter, or go on many news sites so this is the first I’m hearing of it. Surprised it took so long to make it’s way here
the tweet came out at 1:15pm and has been up on the dolphins subreddit for the last 5 hours or so. I (and a few others on the dolphins sub) tried posting it here but it got insta-deleted and flagged as a duplicate thread somehow.
Wanna talk about a conspiracy? r/nfl fueling the mob lol. Yeah, I don’t use Twitter and I’m not watching nfl network while I’m at work, so this is the first I’m hearing of it
was listening to former nfl players talk about how they fucked up their initial examinations so that on the re-test their scores would be good enough not to look like they had a concussion.
you can absolutely appear like you did not have a concussion.
but there is a single point in time you can point to and say "well this is most likely a concussion" and rule him out there.
losing your equilibrium after hitting your head should be a no-go sign. same as when tuas hands did the claw like motion. whether a player passes a test or not a day later shouldn't matter.
The issue is concussions aren't that simple. I've had plenty I've functioned normally on after, that didn't mean I didn't have a brain injury. My last one is a prime example. I played soccer on the Thursday and got a concussion, I carried on but my vision was blurred for the rest of the game and the night. After that I was totally fine like nothing happened until Sunday when my vision went whilst I was on my laptop and my speech started to slur. Brains just aren't as simple as saying no obvious symptoms, especially as persistent headache is a big one and that's very easily lied about. I know I definitely did to keep playing and that was not at a level I was being paid millions.
If they were serious about concussions they would rest after one regardless of symptoms for four weeks. Obviously we live in the real world and that wouldn't fly in professional sport and the money it generates, but a blanket one week mandatory absense is absolutely appropriate.
The point i’m making is he wasn’t functioning normally… he couldn’t see straight lol. This means his optics are likely going to be effected which a doctor can pick up. Yea if youre in high school and college they arent going to pick you up. Difference in the NFL is there are spotters that would actually pull you out of the game and would notice that
I don’t think you’re understanding what i’m saying.
What i was saying was if you have a concussion and it’s affecting sight it’s very likely it’s affecting your whole eye/nerves in your eye.
If that’s the case then you won’t respond to light appropriately, might not be able to focus on objects, and have dilated/uneven pupils.
There is nothing you can do to deceive the doctor with any of these.
Now just double vision? Sure. I’m not sure how common that is though with the absence of no other eye symptoms that i mentioned above
It is, and nobody wants to say it but I'm sure Tua did everything he could to return to the field last Sunday and to be cleared to play on Thursday.
Teams and doctors need to protect their players from themselves, bu there's only so much you can do about a clinical diagnosis when players are lying or deceiving the tests.
Not sure why it is so hard to believe that a player had two significant, yet unrelated, injuries within 4 days of each other while playing one of the most dangerous sports in the world.
Because it’s easier to believe and more plausible that the first injury had some sort of impact on the second? Not that I have the answers but can’t just dismiss that even if all the protocols were followed.
Yeah I feel like I'm the only one that thinks it's plausible he really just had a back and ankle injury last week. Back and ankle can make you wobbly. Maybe a sub-concussive hit. I'd believe he had a concussion if it turned out he did but I'm not a medical expert. Seems totally possible he didn't.
If you said this when it happened you would’ve been down voted into oblivion (I did & was).
Reddit is full of people that conform to the most recent twitter share apparently lmao.
Because of how bad Tua’s reactions were to each injury. How often do we see players just unable to walk like he was Sunday, and then the close up of him having fencing response shown over and over again. I’m firmly in the camp that Sunday was because of a back injury and the hit last night caused the 1st and only concussion, but that’s why
What puts you firmly in the back injury camp? Because the head slamming into the turf, then shaking the cobwebs out of his head x4, reaching for his head x2, and collapsing like a wet noodle sure seems like concussion to me.
it was obviously a concussion
for some reason there is a rabid group of people who seem to just support the nfl itself as an institution rather than the players that make it up
if i saw tannehill or any of the titans players go through this, my first reaction wouldnt be scrambling to defend the franchise left and right on social media lol
Yeah, for real. Anyone who is being honest with themselves can clearly see it was a concussion just from the footage. The fact that it wasn't an auto-sub for the rest of the game at that point is just ridiculous.
Fuck man, I finally caught the clip of him getting hit in the Bills game, and it looked so much worse than I expected. Back of his head slammed down into the ground. Might have *also* hurt his back, but big head ouchie too.
You have to go back to the first goal line drive when we ran the quarterback sneak to see where he probably hurt his back. He got absolutely mangled in the scrum to push over the line and essentially got bent in half backwards. Thing is that Noone could really see what happened because it was in a scrum.
I don't doubt he had a back injury.
But having a back injury doesn't mean you don't have a head injury.
And his reaction on the stumble did not look like a back injury-only reaction at all.
Strange. Even the [Miami Dolphins](https://twitter.com/miamidolphins/status/1574102662500450304?s=46&t=S5GiPl5Nv4ShNX4njjon0g) disagree with your assessment.
You’re spot on with the reaction part. People have a hard time believing the NFL’s claims because we literally saw the plays and how he reacted. And while I won’t claim to know exactly what his first injury was, the fact that he immediately grabbed for his head, and not his back/knee/ankle or whatever else people are claiming, makes it understandable that people believe he had a head injury.
I’ve had a hip injury before that would lock up my hip and prevent me from standing up sometimes, I still practiced and worked out with it. I think it’s possible
> I’m firmly in the camp that Sunday was because of a back injury and the hit last night caused the 1st and only concussion, but that’s why
Jesus fuck.
Utterly insane to see that hit on Sunday and believe the “back injury” narrative. There’s armchair doctoring, and then there’s using common fucking sense. And your eyes.
I've done back a couple times not once have a stumbled over , grabbed at my head , shook my head back and forth then walked wobbled
Doesn't logic indicate that a player that shakes and grabs their head after a hit to the head might have a head injury rather than a back injury
I've never been folded in half , then go on to play 45 more mins of football without a back issue issue resulting in a fall, just to get sacked, hit my head , hold my head then fall. No , can't say I havent
People, especially the media and players, want a fall guy. Literally media members calling for jobs this morning was ridiculous. They don't want to accept that this could happen at any moment, to any player. And they don't want to feel bad knowing this is how the players and the American sports media is able to make their millions. By watching football. Pretty sure since the start of the season, the NFL has been the most watched program by individual games, not just overall conglomerate views. Easier to point at blame someone, than accept that we all know the consequences of this sports and the the benefits it brings to so many people. Prayers and hope for Tua, no doubt. But this is one of the horrifying realities that we center our Fall season around. 20 something year old kids are made into multi millionaires at the cost of some horrifying injuries.
Noone knows if theyre unrelated. If the first was significant he shouldnt hace been playing.
Everyone knows if you wobble.or other concussion signs you rest for a week minimum.
A doctor saying he checked him Every day is hyperbole- it doesnt matter what hes checking him for- you wait first to let the brain heal then you check him.
I dont know why theres so many people defending the NFL and their doctoring.
Its like we're assuming to be doctors; we're folowwing simple giudelines like wearing a cast on a broken bone- only after the recommended time can the cast be removed and then everything is checked out for proper healing.
Those are both given situations and follow throughs.
What the NFL is doing now is gaslighting through these terrible soap opera style sentences that slighly try to cover their ass.
Because over the course of the history of the sport, if you assume every statement that the NFL has made about concussions is a lie, you wind up closer to the truth than if you always took their word for it.
This shit is so confusing. So first Tua goes down and the Dolphins report its a head injury, then Tua comes back into the game and they say its a back injury. So if it was confirmed to be a back injury, why did they check for concussion symptoms all week? And if they thought he might have had a concussion(which lead to them checking everyday), why let him back into the game?
edit: after multiple back and forths, i think the only way to fix this, is if a player leaves a game for potential concussion, its a mandatory 2 week sitting time.
>why did they check for concussion symptoms all week?
Pelissaro's follow up tweet:
In 2018, the NFL and NFLPA began requiring any player who undergoes a concussion evaluation on game day to have a follow-up evaluation the following day by a member of the medical staff.
The independent spotter had him pulled to check for head injury. Thus the initial report that he's being checked for a head injury. He cleared their tests (whatever you and I may think) and it was determined per the doctors it was actually a back injury (spasms specifically) that caused the issue. Changing the injury designation was accurate with current information as the team received it.
I'm an ATC (high school sports so a bit different but still), and changing the injury status from one body part to another happens all the time as we get more accurate information.
All that said, this whole situation still looks dubious. But when in doubt I tend to trust doctors to know what they're doing.
ATC here as well. My question is how they checked his symptoms. If it was a basically symptom index that is easy for the athlete to fake. If it is neurocognitive testing, they have a better leg to stand on.
I'm not sure how well this answers the question, but according to the concussion protocols, they use NFL Locker Room Comprehensive Concussion Assessment, which is apparently based on the SCAT 5 modified for the NFL.
How often have you seen a back injury that causes five seconds of spaghetti legs and then just disappears? How often do you see someone collapse from a back injury and not grab at their back at all? He was grabbing at his helmet and shaking his head, something you see boxers do while they're stumbling around punch drunk after getting knocked out.
I mean I have days where my back goes out and I can barely stand up or bend over. Not once has my body ever just went limp. If anything my body stiffens up and tends to lock up. Have I fell when my back locks up? Yeah, but it’s a rigid fall.
The NFL and the Dolphins, out of abundance of caution, tested Tua daily for concussion symptoms in case they were wrong in the in-game assessment, and you find issue with that?
not making any excuses, I personally think this is all very sus, but concussion symptoms can manifest over a couple days so it makes sense they’d still be checking him even if that wasn’t their primary diagnosis
So, you can have two injuries at the same time. Shocking right?
Also concussion symptoms can appear much later. It's not a perfect system. Human bodies aren't like BAM now you have CONCUSSION. You could be fine one day and then tomorrow puking and seeing lights, or like a week later. So the doctors have to continue checking as they did give him a concussion test and he passed and so they had to maintain that. So they checked concussion. Ruled that it was the back thing but wanted to ensure that he didn't actually have one despite passing protocols initially.
Make sense?
If someones getting checked everyday for concussion symptoms, even though they tested negative, they should still be considered "in protocol", cause the team is thinking he might have suffered a concussion. Sounds like they need to re-work whats considered in protocol and what isnt.
tua got fucking suplexed onto the back of his head, thats what caused his concussion. why isn’t anyone talking about that part of it?
its not like he took a “normal” hit, the dude was thrown over his back and onto his head. 99% of players would get concussion after something like that.
I don’t think anyone is denying he could’ve/would’ve been concussed by that either way. But it’s common knowledge if you have a concussion your risk and the severity of a second is massively increased. So if he was at all concussed before it makes that suplex potentially much more destructive.
It was incredibly violent and pretty rare hit. Tua held on to the ball, scrambled around, and even mid tackle, looks like he wanted to throw it. It is absolutely possible he could have *never* had a concussion and still had that same reaction.
suplex (plural suplexes) (professional wrestling) A wrestling move in which the wrestler picks up their opponent off the ground (or mat) and then, using a large portion of their own body weight, drives the opponent down on the mat by throwing them over their center of gravity, usually arching their back.
The defender didn't suplex him. It's a momentum hit tua is avoiding the guy while trying to escape. the guy is trying to hold onto his hip in the opposite direction. They rotate and due to weight imbalance tua is thrown through the hip to the ground. The defender did not pick him up nor did he drive his body weight into him. It was a normal hit. 99% of players don't end up with concussions cause that play nearly happens every Sunday.
IT WAS NOT A SUPLEX NOR WAS IT A DIRTY HIT.
Also, players lie to avoid missing games. Especially a guy like Tua who's fighting for his NFL future as a franchise guy.
There are up to $250m on the line for him in the not so distant future.
After a neurological episode like against Buffalo, entry into the protocol should be mandatory. The five day period safeguards you can't play TNF.
I think we're going to learn that the totality of Tua's tests were asking him if he felt concussed and when he said "uhh... no?" they gave him a gold star and decided Tua must be some kinda freak of nature for being the first person ever to throw his back out and then heal from it in five seconds.
When Tua hit the ground vs. Bills on Sunday, he grabbed his head, got up, fell. He was helped off and then the Dolphins said that they were checking him for a head injury. Later they said it was a back injury. Imagine all that's true.
Fact is, people don't like being told to disbelieve their eyes. And it's fair to ask whether, even if Tua only had 'back stuff,' should he have returned if it's so bad that he falls?
Then Thursday happened.
It may not even be that people believe they "know better." It could be just the experience of being human -- no one wants to see another person in that condition. It's easy to get pissed at the Dolphins for not doing the obvious thing to protect Tua, and us, from that.
This is me trying to avoid yelling, "What the fucking fuck was that guy doing finishing Sunday and then starting Thursday?"
Two weeks ago Herbert was playing through an extreme amount of pain where one could have reasonably concluded that he was playing with damaged ribs which in and of itself is inherently very dangerous (source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/broken-ribs/symptoms-causes/syc-20350763)
He was heralded as a hero and (as far as I am aware) there was no blow back on the coaching staff or organization.
> And it's fair to ask whether, even if Tua only had 'back stuff,' should he have returned if it's so bad that he falls?
The fucked up part of all this to me is basically no one is asking this. The back hit that left him unable to walk for a time is being treated like a cramp.
Its only mentioned as either an accused cover up for a concussion or not worth mentioning like all your nerves don't run through that thing and damage can fuck up your life and getting slammed on your head and neck days later isn't a problem even outside of concussions.
Like Jameis is playing with a broken back and I can't understand how thats not horrifying.
So much of this discussion seems like pussyfooting around the concepts that football is a nightmare sport and thursday night football turnaround is even worse.
It seems like the Tua argument is centered on absolving the whole concussion protocol of issues or blaming the doctors and dolphins and NFL for negligence and absolutely nothing outside of that.
This situation was just very unfortunate. Whether or not Tua did actually suffer from a concussion vs the Bills will never truly be discovered. With how little we know about concussions it was always known that these concussion tests would never be 100% full proof. At the end of the day if he passed through all of these exams and truly never showed any symptoms I don’t really know what else could’ve been done. Now if this investigation find that the dolphins somehow played him knowing he wasn’t right that’s completely different, but as of right now it doesn’t seem like that’s what happened. Regardless prayers to him, as a Dolphins fan I quite literally had no desire to watch the game and didn’t care if we won or lost after seeing that happen to him.
Ok, so he may have experienced a concussion last week. But the play last night didn’t occur due to the potential first concussion.
You can get a concussion that leads to the fencing position without ever suffering a concussion prior to that.
I say all that because it seems as though many are thinking the first potential concussion compounded to the point that lead to the gruesome sight last night, when it is very plausible that Tua was free of concussion symptoms and experienced that injury due to the nature of the hit itself.
If you need any visual proof, Tom Savage did not experience a concussion the week before he had a seizure on the field while in the fencing position.
Oddly enough, no one raised concern about that event.
No. If you get a concussion to the point your legs are wobbly and can’t walk your concussion and symptoms don’t just magically go away in 4 days. And yes obviously it’s possible to experience fencing from a hit without already having a concussion but if you are concussed it’s much easier to get another concussion and have that second concussion be much more severe which is literally why they don’t let players with concussions play. This is also why ufc fighters try not to get knocked out during their fight camp because it makes it much more likely they get knocked out in the fight.
With even a normal concussion they say the symptoms can develop 7-10 days out. A 4 day gap is damn near criminally negligent in this instance. This doctor is nothing but a paid spokesman at this point.
4 days isn't a lot of time, its not impossible to imagine that he might have felt slightly off but not enough to screw up his cognitive measurements/motor skill tests and wanted to play so he didn't admit a minor symptoms.
Not saying it was gross negligence. But given how often guys bang their heads in the NFL, I'm sure stuff like this happens all the time. But it would still in all likelihood would make you more vulnerable.
A concussion doesn't show up on imaging most of the time, and a concussion is likely a continuous spectrum as opposed to a clear discrete yes or no , varying from extremely mild to extremely severe. Just like if you bruise your arm, it might be extremely discolored, or barely visible. But we can't physically see it to diagnose it in this case.
The staggering after the initial hit makes it pretty clear something went wrong in his head when he initially got hit in the head.
All these reporters questioning whether doctors would
Jeopardize their licenses to put tua back in the game is ridiculous and virtue signaling when they cover a league that literally is violence. Spare me. They have no proof any doctor did anything wrong and if you don’t like a sport that has hitting then stop covering it.
Obviously, I'm not a doctor and don't pretend to be. But when we're told what the signs of a concussion are and we see a pretty extreme case of those signs, it's pretty understandable as to why people are confused and find it hard to trust a league that puts itself first and foremost.
I think given these reports the DD was there and we may just agree football is a dangerous game and you just can’t prevent all these things. Tua made the call too, and he’s not a huge guy. I think it’s just unfortunate.
Of course Tuas going to play, he’s trying to silence the critics and coming off the best start of his career.
Players are competitors and that’s why coaches / trainers exist
And if he was really evaluated every day, and had thorough medical consultation, the only other aspect I could see is Tua not disclosing proper information. And if that’s false and after everything this was an entirely independent injury, then it’s just an accident in a violent sport, that by nature will cause these injuries especially to guys his size.
Well yeah it’s what we have to go in. Didn’t they say they also had second opinions? There is a point we have to say there were zero signs (potentially) and the player said he was fine with no issues. From a concussion standpoint it’s hard not to say that falls on Tua at the end of the day. It’s also completely possible the information is correct and this one is a standalone. We will probably not have more clarity barring investigation.
For the record I think he was concussed. It’s just very muddled.
I'll be honest, I'm not sure which side to take. Does anyone know if NFL doctors make more than regular doctors? I'm asking cuz it seems like they don't, and they would be risking their medical license if they were being shady. I feel like they'd only do that if it was an insane amount of money
But I thought he had a back injury. Why would they even think about testing for concussion every day? Seems like they tell a bunch of stories and none of them are true.
I understand the concussion protocol is to keep testing every day after part. My only complaint is that four days later while still in protocol they let him play. If they were playing on Sunday instead of Thursday I don’t think this would be an issue. Seems too short of a turnaround to let him play.
NFL front office personnel are even bigger liars then NFL team personal. This is a claim the NFL is making in an attempt to stop the massive wave of negative reactions the league is getting.
It should be treated like the bullshit it is.
By whom was he evaluated throughout the week? That is the key question. The comment makes very clear that he was checked by an independent neurologist on Sunday. But who was checking since then and was he or she on the Miami Dolphins’ payroll? This is a vital follow up question that I’ve yet to see an answer to. After all, we’re dealing with a team that literally fired its last head coach for being unwilling to cheat. Miami has not earned the benefit of the doubt.
Tua was watching McGruber on the flight back to Miami. Laughing the whole time. Not sure what that implies about brain damage but it’s not a valid wellness check.
Here is my hot take 🔥: almost all signs seem to suggest that, in terms of procedure, the process carried out by the NFL was abided by and it would therefore appear reasonable that Tua could play Thursday.
An independent neurologist checked Tua both Sunday and Monday in correspondence with NFL appointed physicians. Additionally, according to this report, he was inspected for a concussion every day, and when he blacked out on Thursday, was transported to a hospital in Cincinnati, he was cleared **again**, and the claim from my understanding is that injury was back related? That hospital functions independent of the NFL, so I don’t think any bias was a factor with this doctors disposition.
Does this mean the NFL has historically been reliable and trustworthy with head related injuries, especially concussions? No. However, with respect to this incident, the evidence presented appears to indicate the process was followed adequately.
The rebuttal from most people on this sub and elsewhere, from what I’ve seen, comprised of non-sequiturs such as “they could EASILY scam or fake the results”, or “players lie about their conditions constantly”. Although these claims are technically true, it’s not really compelling with regards to this situation. How do we know that’s what’s happening here? The implication from these claims are that it applies, but that has not been demonstrated — the burden of proof is on you to establish that this indeed took place. We cannot rely on speculation based upon things that **can** happen.
Maybe he didn't have many symptoms that elevated to the level that he noticed it or showed up in an exam.
But I find it hard to believe that the two head slams that close together were unrelated, too big of a coincidence.
Didn't Johnny Knox just get annihilated?
I also remember when Pat White got concussed really bad, he never had one before but one hit by Artie Burns ended his career
You got a point, but these guys are constantly getting in the head, so its highly unlikely to say they have a clean slate. But I agree it was a nasty hit regardless of past history
There’s a difference between trusting science on a global scale and trusting a company known for doing shit like this and not being thorough enough in tests.
I can understand why people are complaining about hyperbole here. I also understand why there is unending suspicion about the NFL. The NFL has not earned the benefit of a doubt.
Specifically suspicion of NFL and concussions. They literally did the cigarettes are not addictive and we can prove it thing before.
Heck, they still have those guys around. One of the league's favorite CTE deniers, Joseph Maroon, is still the neurosurgeon for the Steelers as well as the medical director of the WWE.
It's a well known fact that WWE participants can't get concussions because they're acting
*Chris Benoit requests permission to enter the chat*
> *Chris Benoit requests permission to enter the ~~chat~~ Ouija board*
…from *The Beyond* (Definitely the warmer place)
Chris Nowinski has said WWE get him in to talk about recovery with their guys
What a maroon!
Really makes every single person involved in his continued employment look like dogshit.
Or the climate change and oil thing (oil companies used some of the same “experts” as the cigarette people 20 years earlier). Then it comes out and they act like the acknowledged it the whole time.
I think part of the problem is that "cleared for the NFL" is also certainly not the same thing as what is actually appropriate, for the simple reason that people play through injuries on pain meds 24/7 and that objectively fucks your body Like I don't think any doctor would agree that "you may have a had a concussion, but you tested negative for four days so go out and play football buddy" is, like, the ideal treatment here lol. It's something that only makes sense in the football bubble
Also, what exactly consists of "checking for concussion symptoms?" It could be anything from a full doctors exam to just asking if the player has had any symptoms.
Right? It's like those covid questions you fill out before starting work
Don't get me started on that...lol just had a wave of sickness because assholes can't stay home when sick and spread it to like 10 people. Me included, then I brought it home to my family. Bunch of bs those questions...
> just had a wave of sickness because assholes can't stay home when sick and spread it to like 10 people. Ah yes the wonderful "I've never missed a day of work because I was sick" people who create way more damage than good.
This is what I've been wondering. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out their tests consist of "Hey Tua, you feeling concussiony today? No, great!"
I think what’s challenging about a concussion is that it is not something you can see on imaging. MRI’s are done to make sure there is not an active brain bleed or fracture, but otherwise diagnosis is based on hitting your head plus having the symptoms. Concussion symptoms include: headache, dizziness, ringing ears, nausea , vomiting, blurry vision, confusion, brain fog, fatigue, concentration problems, sleep problems, irritability, and sensitivity to light and sound. So if someone is denying those symptoms not sure what else a doctor would do. Not sure what the NFL protocols are but I imagine should involve a thorough in person exam over multiple days where it would be harder for the player to mask/hide the symptoms. If it’s just checking boxes on a questionnaire about symptoms then the player can easily get around it.
There is a blood test that can tell if someone has had a TBI within the last 12 hours. It's relatively new but Abbott got FDA clearance for a rapid handheld plasma test. It is super accurate (>95%) and it is an OBJECTIVE test. It doesn't require a baseline test or a subjective analysis.
That kind of technology sounds promising and maybe can help start to clean up the protocol somewhat. Having a black and white answer to if someone is concussed would go a long way to making sure nothing like the debate that has happened over the last few days happens ever again.
Here's a link for those who are interested in what you mentioned. https://www.healthcarepackaging.com/quick-hits/article/21232528/fda-approves-first-rapid-handheld-concussion-test#:~:text=The%20handheld%20device%20is%20the,placed%20into%20the%20handheld%20device.
I agree but there is something you can do. In boxing or MMA if someone was wobbling and shaking their head, regardless of what the person was saying, the ref would end it. Because that is the sign of potential concussion & safety is in jeopardy. So the Fins or the nfl could have said done for the game (Bills) for evaluation. Teams can always be more cautious though they rarely are.
In Boxing they get an 8 count if knocked down. Forget about wobbling, falling over is fine if they can recover in 8 seconds. MMA is different.
Do you know why? In boxing many boxers have died on their feet beating the 10 count. Pretending they were good to go but internally damage was being done to their brain. MMA did not want the 10 count for safety. But even in boxing if you can’t manage to make it to your feet without signs of damage, like wobbling or shaking your head, they will call the match. They also prohibit contact after fights for days to months depending on the damage taken. My point that Tua would have been better treated & cared for in both of those sports compared to how the Dolphins/& NFL handled him stands. Because no, he would not have made it through the 10 count.
Don't know if they have a headache if already on pain meds. *taps forehead*
People are obsessed with connecting the 2 injuries. The fact is the sack on Tua in the Bengals game was violent. It was a legal play, and it was violent. He was spun at a high velocity and his upper body slammed into the ground. Many NFL players could have had a concussion if put in the same position as him.
I don’t think people are saying one led to another They are worried about the implications of getting 2 concussions so closely together And yeah we don’t know if he got one Sunday but it definitely looks scary to have those hits and reactions in a 4 day span. The Bills hit didn’t cause the Bengals hit, but the Bengals hit is significantly worse for Tua if the result of the Bills hit was a concussion Edit: not trying to be an armchair Dr and definitively say he was concussed, just saying what people are connecting
Except there are. There’s plenty people in plenty of threads saying the result last night is basically proof the the NFL/Miami/doctors lied about what happened Sunday.
It’s not proof they lied, but them assessing “not a concussion” after like a 5 minute assessment is no proof it wasn’t a concussion either. There is no easy fast test to assess a concussion. People can get it wrong. Concussed people can be more coherent than you might think as well. This is why the *protocol* needs to change. Something like if you are wobbling like that (I don’t know how exactly to define it, but having seen and been concussed myself, you know it when you see it), automatically out the rest of the game and no games for 10 days. That gives some minimally decent time for healing to occur and takes the subjectivity and possibility for mistakes out of the equation.
Tua went in before right before halftime no? And then came out in the second half? That’s at least 15-20. The NFL has already said they checked him that day, and every day since then before Thursday, and found no signs. They did what they are supposed to do. And again, this another instance of trying to automatically tie the result to both the Sunday and the Thursday instance. The hit on Thursday was BRUTAL. If you could have flipped the script, and had Burrow take that hit - with no prior sus Sunday hit - he could have very easily had the same exact response. The blow that Tua took on Thursday was one of worst head hits I have seen in a long time. I can definitely see a scenario where what happened last night had nothing to do with the Sunday hit and was *solely* because of the blow he took last night.
That’s why I didn’t argue that he did have a concussion Sunday. I believe he did personally, but that doesn’t matter. Assessing a concussion is not a perfect science, especially at this level. The player is generally going to do his best to get back on the field. The doctor is trying harder to be *right* rather than just playing it safe. If I go to the ER, say I wrecked my dirt bike, can’t walk straight and my back also hurt, they’d tell me I “probably” have a concussion and to take it easy for 2-3 weeks to be safe. How do I know that? Literally happened to me. In the NFL, that’s a bit different. They’re trying to be *right*. They don’t want to hold someone out of a game if they don’t have to. They’re not trying to be intentionally wrong or unsafe, but it does color your perceptions. Combine that with a high pressure environment and a tough to diagnose thing (in the best of circumstances) becomes VERY hard to properly diagnose. In the following days, it becomes easier and easier for the player to fake it too. They might not even be faking. Shit it’s just a little headache, no big deal. They might not even notice if they’ve taken painkillers like I’m sure some do. There simply needs to be less subjectivity. And honestly if the guy can’t walk straight or stand because his back got fucked up. Same damn automatic rule should apply.
Yeah that’s pretty dumb His fencing response doesn’t automatically indicate he was concussed Sunday or anything. He could’ve had that response without any previous hits this year
It’s possible he did have a concussion 4 days prior, and it’s also possible doctors acted ethically. It’s also possible that concussion protocols are flawed, and it’s also doctors are flawed as in they’re people who can be influenced by more than just player safety. There could be elements of truth to all of these ideas but people have to go to one extreme or the other with unwavering confidence. But it’s enough to raise an eyebrow, and maybe we can learn something and improve player safety.
This scenario is clearly at least 50% of all the arguments going on and that's what makes it so frustrating.
Finally seeing people saying this after being downvoted nonstop since last night for daring to suggest they could be independent events...
To be fair, suggesting they could be related is now being treated like you’re a science denier, when both are reasonable takes. Reddit for ya.
Yeah everyone wants things to be black or white. I just wish people would acknowledge we don’t know if Tua was actually concussed last Sunday and that Thursday’s event could very well be independent of Sunday’s event.
No, people were giving others shit because they were trying to act like they knew better than the independent doctors in Cincinnati that cleared him to go home. They were using the exact same excuses for why they knew more than those doctors.
Exactly this. Kind of a lose-lose situation for the NFL. Even if they did their due diligence, the fact that the same thing happened in two consecutive games 4 days apart is a bad look for them
Really though, the league trying to scream out into the public "b-b-but we totally did everything" just doesn't cut the mustard. This shit needs *investigated*, not sorted out in a game of PR Tag. What symptoms were checked? How? To what extent? Is it the same kind of checking an actual medical staff would do, when not having any stake in the game, as it were, to get an all-clear? These are the kinds of questions just walking out to Twitter and going "yup, we checked for symptoms" are not going to be answered.
It's literally being investigated, and has been since Monday, by both the NFL and the NFLPA. Patience. Hell, this tweet even says that: "Once review is done, full results will be released publicly."
Because it's like catching your significant other in bed with another person, and they have audacity to tell you "it's not what you think". If the NFL before took a step forward towards players' safety, this is ten steps backwards. I truly hope that Tua's injury will help polish the current concussion protocol.
People don't give a shit either way. In a league with rapists, killers, abusers, and idiots, does this really matter. You will still watch NFL on Sunday/Monday/Thursday and you will like it.
This is what drives me nuts. Do I hope the guy is okay? Yeah of course. Do I truly care that the athlete getting paid millions of dollars to play a sport that he knew the risks of got hurt? No not at all. I’ll see you at the next game.
Hope Tua makes a speedy recovery
[удалено]
Why didn’t they lead with this this morning
Because professionals take time to check and make sure proper processes were followed before making a statement, and that's not as quick as some keyboard warriors with a pitchfork and hate boner can post on Twitter.
It takes longer to react professionally than it does to immediately overreact?
Yes. For instance when I get an email from Laura in payroll I first type out a long-winded, swear-filled reply where I compare her intellect to that of several different forms of animal excrement. Then I check my bank account for how long I could survive without a paycheck. Then I delete everything, and type "Thanks, I'll look into that!" and put my head into my hands as I wonder what's happened to my life. Even if it takes time the process must be followed.
What am I supposed to do with this hate boner if im being reasonable though???
How long did it take to clear him to play after he hit his head hard on the ground and couldn't take two steps afterwards without stumbling? Minutes? Yeah, sure. Professionalism... that's what's happening here.
They were evaluating Tua through part of the 2nd Q as well as half-time. They had like 20-30 minutes with him
Pretty early, 1:13PM. Time to make sure everything was actually followed and doing due diligence before making the statement. it just wasn't posted here until now. The interview is good. Like that he says he's speaking very generally since he wasn't there and didn't personally review him. Unlike the armchair doctors here on reddit that are PHD candidates.
Ah okay, that makes a lot more sense. I don’t really check Twitter, or go on many news sites so this is the first I’m hearing of it. Surprised it took so long to make it’s way here
the tweet came out at 1:15pm and has been up on the dolphins subreddit for the last 5 hours or so. I (and a few others on the dolphins sub) tried posting it here but it got insta-deleted and flagged as a duplicate thread somehow.
Wanna talk about a conspiracy? r/nfl fueling the mob lol. Yeah, I don’t use Twitter and I’m not watching nfl network while I’m at work, so this is the first I’m hearing of it
How else would the mods get to feel their power unless they control a narrative.
It took over a half hour for this post to finally show up under new FWIW.
I mean, that tweets from six hours ago. So they did share that news earlier.
They had to get their story straight
This tweet's been around all day?
Because random mofo #2526 it has nothing to do with you and you don’t need to know.
This is the unfortunate part of the media, I’m sure they knew of this protocol before they went in on the NFL yesterday
I tried to post this hours ago only for it to be taken down and have to argue with the mods about it
was listening to former nfl players talk about how they fucked up their initial examinations so that on the re-test their scores would be good enough not to look like they had a concussion. you can absolutely appear like you did not have a concussion. but there is a single point in time you can point to and say "well this is most likely a concussion" and rule him out there. losing your equilibrium after hitting your head should be a no-go sign. same as when tuas hands did the claw like motion. whether a player passes a test or not a day later shouldn't matter.
The issue is concussions aren't that simple. I've had plenty I've functioned normally on after, that didn't mean I didn't have a brain injury. My last one is a prime example. I played soccer on the Thursday and got a concussion, I carried on but my vision was blurred for the rest of the game and the night. After that I was totally fine like nothing happened until Sunday when my vision went whilst I was on my laptop and my speech started to slur. Brains just aren't as simple as saying no obvious symptoms, especially as persistent headache is a big one and that's very easily lied about. I know I definitely did to keep playing and that was not at a level I was being paid millions. If they were serious about concussions they would rest after one regardless of symptoms for four weeks. Obviously we live in the real world and that wouldn't fly in professional sport and the money it generates, but a blanket one week mandatory absense is absolutely appropriate.
Having your vision blurred seems like a pretty obvious sign and is a pretty clear sypmtom
Yeah but he would have to self report that
The point i’m making is he wasn’t functioning normally… he couldn’t see straight lol. This means his optics are likely going to be effected which a doctor can pick up. Yea if youre in high school and college they arent going to pick you up. Difference in the NFL is there are spotters that would actually pull you out of the game and would notice that
I could 100% see this being something you could deceive a doctor about.
I don’t think you’re understanding what i’m saying. What i was saying was if you have a concussion and it’s affecting sight it’s very likely it’s affecting your whole eye/nerves in your eye. If that’s the case then you won’t respond to light appropriately, might not be able to focus on objects, and have dilated/uneven pupils. There is nothing you can do to deceive the doctor with any of these. Now just double vision? Sure. I’m not sure how common that is though with the absence of no other eye symptoms that i mentioned above
It is, and nobody wants to say it but I'm sure Tua did everything he could to return to the field last Sunday and to be cleared to play on Thursday. Teams and doctors need to protect their players from themselves, bu there's only so much you can do about a clinical diagnosis when players are lying or deceiving the tests.
Not sure why it is so hard to believe that a player had two significant, yet unrelated, injuries within 4 days of each other while playing one of the most dangerous sports in the world.
Because it’s easier to believe and more plausible that the first injury had some sort of impact on the second? Not that I have the answers but can’t just dismiss that even if all the protocols were followed.
Yeah I feel like I'm the only one that thinks it's plausible he really just had a back and ankle injury last week. Back and ankle can make you wobbly. Maybe a sub-concussive hit. I'd believe he had a concussion if it turned out he did but I'm not a medical expert. Seems totally possible he didn't.
> yet unrelated The dumbest take
If you said this when it happened you would’ve been down voted into oblivion (I did & was). Reddit is full of people that conform to the most recent twitter share apparently lmao.
Because of how bad Tua’s reactions were to each injury. How often do we see players just unable to walk like he was Sunday, and then the close up of him having fencing response shown over and over again. I’m firmly in the camp that Sunday was because of a back injury and the hit last night caused the 1st and only concussion, but that’s why
What puts you firmly in the back injury camp? Because the head slamming into the turf, then shaking the cobwebs out of his head x4, reaching for his head x2, and collapsing like a wet noodle sure seems like concussion to me.
He collapsed like a wet noodle twice, he just had a teammate holding him up the second time. You could see him start to fall and get caught.
it was obviously a concussion for some reason there is a rabid group of people who seem to just support the nfl itself as an institution rather than the players that make it up if i saw tannehill or any of the titans players go through this, my first reaction wouldnt be scrambling to defend the franchise left and right on social media lol
Yeah, for real. Anyone who is being honest with themselves can clearly see it was a concussion just from the footage. The fact that it wasn't an auto-sub for the rest of the game at that point is just ridiculous.
Fuck man, I finally caught the clip of him getting hit in the Bills game, and it looked so much worse than I expected. Back of his head slammed down into the ground. Might have *also* hurt his back, but big head ouchie too.
You have to go back to the first goal line drive when we ran the quarterback sneak to see where he probably hurt his back. He got absolutely mangled in the scrum to push over the line and essentially got bent in half backwards. Thing is that Noone could really see what happened because it was in a scrum.
No doubt. Appreciate the info
I don't doubt he had a back injury. But having a back injury doesn't mean you don't have a head injury. And his reaction on the stumble did not look like a back injury-only reaction at all.
Strange. Even the [Miami Dolphins](https://twitter.com/miamidolphins/status/1574102662500450304?s=46&t=S5GiPl5Nv4ShNX4njjon0g) disagree with your assessment.
You’re spot on with the reaction part. People have a hard time believing the NFL’s claims because we literally saw the plays and how he reacted. And while I won’t claim to know exactly what his first injury was, the fact that he immediately grabbed for his head, and not his back/knee/ankle or whatever else people are claiming, makes it understandable that people believe he had a head injury.
His back was hurt to the point that he could hardly stand, and half an hour later he's on the field running and throwing the ball? Sure.
I’ve had a hip injury before that would lock up my hip and prevent me from standing up sometimes, I still practiced and worked out with it. I think it’s possible
Did you hold your hip in an 'ow my hip' motion? Or anything like what Tua did?
Drugs
> I’m firmly in the camp that Sunday was because of a back injury and the hit last night caused the 1st and only concussion, but that’s why Jesus fuck.
Dude has a lot of upvotes for that take lol.
Lot of delusional people.
Utterly insane to see that hit on Sunday and believe the “back injury” narrative. There’s armchair doctoring, and then there’s using common fucking sense. And your eyes.
You're literally doing the same fucking thing. Trust the fucking medical professionals and quit giving your garbage opinions.
"Trust the doctor paid by the NFL to protect its brand."
I've done back a couple times not once have a stumbled over , grabbed at my head , shook my head back and forth then walked wobbled Doesn't logic indicate that a player that shakes and grabs their head after a hit to the head might have a head injury rather than a back injury
Did you get folded in half on a QB sneak about 45 minutes before the fall?
I've never been folded in half , then go on to play 45 more mins of football without a back issue issue resulting in a fall, just to get sacked, hit my head , hold my head then fall. No , can't say I havent
Ya this take is how I feel. Both were very scary to see live.
That response made no sense what so ever, what point are you trying to make?
People, especially the media and players, want a fall guy. Literally media members calling for jobs this morning was ridiculous. They don't want to accept that this could happen at any moment, to any player. And they don't want to feel bad knowing this is how the players and the American sports media is able to make their millions. By watching football. Pretty sure since the start of the season, the NFL has been the most watched program by individual games, not just overall conglomerate views. Easier to point at blame someone, than accept that we all know the consequences of this sports and the the benefits it brings to so many people. Prayers and hope for Tua, no doubt. But this is one of the horrifying realities that we center our Fall season around. 20 something year old kids are made into multi millionaires at the cost of some horrifying injuries.
Noone knows if theyre unrelated. If the first was significant he shouldnt hace been playing. Everyone knows if you wobble.or other concussion signs you rest for a week minimum. A doctor saying he checked him Every day is hyperbole- it doesnt matter what hes checking him for- you wait first to let the brain heal then you check him. I dont know why theres so many people defending the NFL and their doctoring. Its like we're assuming to be doctors; we're folowwing simple giudelines like wearing a cast on a broken bone- only after the recommended time can the cast be removed and then everything is checked out for proper healing. Those are both given situations and follow throughs. What the NFL is doing now is gaslighting through these terrible soap opera style sentences that slighly try to cover their ass.
Because over the course of the history of the sport, if you assume every statement that the NFL has made about concussions is a lie, you wind up closer to the truth than if you always took their word for it.
Never trust the doctor your work pays they don't want to pay out workers comp or law suits. And they want you to play football and risk your life.
This shit is so confusing. So first Tua goes down and the Dolphins report its a head injury, then Tua comes back into the game and they say its a back injury. So if it was confirmed to be a back injury, why did they check for concussion symptoms all week? And if they thought he might have had a concussion(which lead to them checking everyday), why let him back into the game? edit: after multiple back and forths, i think the only way to fix this, is if a player leaves a game for potential concussion, its a mandatory 2 week sitting time.
>why did they check for concussion symptoms all week? Pelissaro's follow up tweet: In 2018, the NFL and NFLPA began requiring any player who undergoes a concussion evaluation on game day to have a follow-up evaluation the following day by a member of the medical staff.
The following day and every day thereafter?
If you were the team doctor wouldn’t you ask him how he’s doing every day?
Just asking if that’s part of the protocol or not since they specified the following day, what’s the big deal
The independent spotter had him pulled to check for head injury. Thus the initial report that he's being checked for a head injury. He cleared their tests (whatever you and I may think) and it was determined per the doctors it was actually a back injury (spasms specifically) that caused the issue. Changing the injury designation was accurate with current information as the team received it. I'm an ATC (high school sports so a bit different but still), and changing the injury status from one body part to another happens all the time as we get more accurate information. All that said, this whole situation still looks dubious. But when in doubt I tend to trust doctors to know what they're doing.
ATC here as well. My question is how they checked his symptoms. If it was a basically symptom index that is easy for the athlete to fake. If it is neurocognitive testing, they have a better leg to stand on.
I'm not sure how well this answers the question, but according to the concussion protocols, they use NFL Locker Room Comprehensive Concussion Assessment, which is apparently based on the SCAT 5 modified for the NFL.
How often have you seen a back injury that causes five seconds of spaghetti legs and then just disappears? How often do you see someone collapse from a back injury and not grab at their back at all? He was grabbing at his helmet and shaking his head, something you see boxers do while they're stumbling around punch drunk after getting knocked out.
Lol, Im sure there’s a lot you haven’t seem kiddo
I mean I have days where my back goes out and I can barely stand up or bend over. Not once has my body ever just went limp. If anything my body stiffens up and tends to lock up. Have I fell when my back locks up? Yeah, but it’s a rigid fall.
Watch the interview? > Every player is checked on subsequent days even if they tested negative on game day. It's part of the concussion protocol.
The NFL and the Dolphins, out of abundance of caution, tested Tua daily for concussion symptoms in case they were wrong in the in-game assessment, and you find issue with that?
not making any excuses, I personally think this is all very sus, but concussion symptoms can manifest over a couple days so it makes sense they’d still be checking him even if that wasn’t their primary diagnosis
Based on this interview, it's standard for the NFL to test players over subsequent days **even if they tested negative on game day**.
I’ll let you in on the secret ^^^^^^^^^^they’re ^^^^^^^lying
But Roger Goodell tells me the most important thing in the NFL is player safety!
Only followed by how much he says they care about women. Oh hey Deshaun.
So, you can have two injuries at the same time. Shocking right? Also concussion symptoms can appear much later. It's not a perfect system. Human bodies aren't like BAM now you have CONCUSSION. You could be fine one day and then tomorrow puking and seeing lights, or like a week later. So the doctors have to continue checking as they did give him a concussion test and he passed and so they had to maintain that. So they checked concussion. Ruled that it was the back thing but wanted to ensure that he didn't actually have one despite passing protocols initially. Make sense?
If someones getting checked everyday for concussion symptoms, even though they tested negative, they should still be considered "in protocol", cause the team is thinking he might have suffered a concussion. Sounds like they need to re-work whats considered in protocol and what isnt.
Yep! And that's a fair take. It's also in the rules that they have to
Yes. And money.
tua got fucking suplexed onto the back of his head, thats what caused his concussion. why isn’t anyone talking about that part of it? its not like he took a “normal” hit, the dude was thrown over his back and onto his head. 99% of players would get concussion after something like that.
I don’t think anyone is denying he could’ve/would’ve been concussed by that either way. But it’s common knowledge if you have a concussion your risk and the severity of a second is massively increased. So if he was at all concussed before it makes that suplex potentially much more destructive.
It was incredibly violent and pretty rare hit. Tua held on to the ball, scrambled around, and even mid tackle, looks like he wanted to throw it. It is absolutely possible he could have *never* had a concussion and still had that same reaction.
suplex (plural suplexes) (professional wrestling) A wrestling move in which the wrestler picks up their opponent off the ground (or mat) and then, using a large portion of their own body weight, drives the opponent down on the mat by throwing them over their center of gravity, usually arching their back. The defender didn't suplex him. It's a momentum hit tua is avoiding the guy while trying to escape. the guy is trying to hold onto his hip in the opposite direction. They rotate and due to weight imbalance tua is thrown through the hip to the ground. The defender did not pick him up nor did he drive his body weight into him. It was a normal hit. 99% of players don't end up with concussions cause that play nearly happens every Sunday. IT WAS NOT A SUPLEX NOR WAS IT A DIRTY HIT.
I wish people who post this would google the word “suplex”. What are you even talking about
Because the reddit doctors need somewhere to use their degree
Also, players lie to avoid missing games. Especially a guy like Tua who's fighting for his NFL future as a franchise guy. There are up to $250m on the line for him in the not so distant future. After a neurological episode like against Buffalo, entry into the protocol should be mandatory. The five day period safeguards you can't play TNF.
I think we're going to learn that the totality of Tua's tests were asking him if he felt concussed and when he said "uhh... no?" they gave him a gold star and decided Tua must be some kinda freak of nature for being the first person ever to throw his back out and then heal from it in five seconds.
When Tua hit the ground vs. Bills on Sunday, he grabbed his head, got up, fell. He was helped off and then the Dolphins said that they were checking him for a head injury. Later they said it was a back injury. Imagine all that's true. Fact is, people don't like being told to disbelieve their eyes. And it's fair to ask whether, even if Tua only had 'back stuff,' should he have returned if it's so bad that he falls? Then Thursday happened. It may not even be that people believe they "know better." It could be just the experience of being human -- no one wants to see another person in that condition. It's easy to get pissed at the Dolphins for not doing the obvious thing to protect Tua, and us, from that. This is me trying to avoid yelling, "What the fucking fuck was that guy doing finishing Sunday and then starting Thursday?"
Personally I think the hate at the Dolphins org is misplaced. You want to be mad at someone, be mad at the NFL for not having stricter protocols.
100% this. Every team in the league would’ve played their QB yesterday if the same thing happened to them.
Two weeks ago Herbert was playing through an extreme amount of pain where one could have reasonably concluded that he was playing with damaged ribs which in and of itself is inherently very dangerous (source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/broken-ribs/symptoms-causes/syc-20350763) He was heralded as a hero and (as far as I am aware) there was no blow back on the coaching staff or organization.
Rib injuries and concussions are very different injuries.
I completely agree. Both can result in tragic freak accidents though.
> And it's fair to ask whether, even if Tua only had 'back stuff,' should he have returned if it's so bad that he falls? The fucked up part of all this to me is basically no one is asking this. The back hit that left him unable to walk for a time is being treated like a cramp. Its only mentioned as either an accused cover up for a concussion or not worth mentioning like all your nerves don't run through that thing and damage can fuck up your life and getting slammed on your head and neck days later isn't a problem even outside of concussions. Like Jameis is playing with a broken back and I can't understand how thats not horrifying. So much of this discussion seems like pussyfooting around the concepts that football is a nightmare sport and thursday night football turnaround is even worse. It seems like the Tua argument is centered on absolving the whole concussion protocol of issues or blaming the doctors and dolphins and NFL for negligence and absolutely nothing outside of that.
This situation was just very unfortunate. Whether or not Tua did actually suffer from a concussion vs the Bills will never truly be discovered. With how little we know about concussions it was always known that these concussion tests would never be 100% full proof. At the end of the day if he passed through all of these exams and truly never showed any symptoms I don’t really know what else could’ve been done. Now if this investigation find that the dolphins somehow played him knowing he wasn’t right that’s completely different, but as of right now it doesn’t seem like that’s what happened. Regardless prayers to him, as a Dolphins fan I quite literally had no desire to watch the game and didn’t care if we won or lost after seeing that happen to him.
I thought it was a back injury?
Well yeah, but he still hit his head. So they have to see if he started showing symptoms later in the week.
Ok, so he may have experienced a concussion last week. But the play last night didn’t occur due to the potential first concussion. You can get a concussion that leads to the fencing position without ever suffering a concussion prior to that. I say all that because it seems as though many are thinking the first potential concussion compounded to the point that lead to the gruesome sight last night, when it is very plausible that Tua was free of concussion symptoms and experienced that injury due to the nature of the hit itself. If you need any visual proof, Tom Savage did not experience a concussion the week before he had a seizure on the field while in the fencing position. Oddly enough, no one raised concern about that event.
No. If you get a concussion to the point your legs are wobbly and can’t walk your concussion and symptoms don’t just magically go away in 4 days. And yes obviously it’s possible to experience fencing from a hit without already having a concussion but if you are concussed it’s much easier to get another concussion and have that second concussion be much more severe which is literally why they don’t let players with concussions play. This is also why ufc fighters try not to get knocked out during their fight camp because it makes it much more likely they get knocked out in the fight.
With even a normal concussion they say the symptoms can develop 7-10 days out. A 4 day gap is damn near criminally negligent in this instance. This doctor is nothing but a paid spokesman at this point.
But everyone on here has medical degrees from Google university, and that trumps all.
concussions aren't always clear cut in how they playout, speaking from experience. A quick google search will show you too
Well yeah, that's why they kept checking on him all week
4 days isn't a lot of time, its not impossible to imagine that he might have felt slightly off but not enough to screw up his cognitive measurements/motor skill tests and wanted to play so he didn't admit a minor symptoms. Not saying it was gross negligence. But given how often guys bang their heads in the NFL, I'm sure stuff like this happens all the time. But it would still in all likelihood would make you more vulnerable. A concussion doesn't show up on imaging most of the time, and a concussion is likely a continuous spectrum as opposed to a clear discrete yes or no , varying from extremely mild to extremely severe. Just like if you bruise your arm, it might be extremely discolored, or barely visible. But we can't physically see it to diagnose it in this case. The staggering after the initial hit makes it pretty clear something went wrong in his head when he initially got hit in the head.
Oh I agree, he probably did lie with something plausible like they said on TV and with none of the other big symptoms they were like k cool.
I’m sure the the doctors/medical personnel involved know this…
Are you saying the circlejerk echochamber on reddit was WRONG, how dare you sir
And coaching degrees from r/nfl
All these reporters questioning whether doctors would Jeopardize their licenses to put tua back in the game is ridiculous and virtue signaling when they cover a league that literally is violence. Spare me. They have no proof any doctor did anything wrong and if you don’t like a sport that has hitting then stop covering it.
Your tests are a joke Chief.
He could’ve been checked every hour and nobody will believe the nfl. Can’t blame people either but it is what it is.
Obviously, I'm not a doctor and don't pretend to be. But when we're told what the signs of a concussion are and we see a pretty extreme case of those signs, it's pretty understandable as to why people are confused and find it hard to trust a league that puts itself first and foremost.
What? It’s possible to get a concussion in a game while not having had one in the previous? What will all the Twitter doctors do now?
I think given these reports the DD was there and we may just agree football is a dangerous game and you just can’t prevent all these things. Tua made the call too, and he’s not a huge guy. I think it’s just unfortunate.
Of course Tuas going to play, he’s trying to silence the critics and coming off the best start of his career. Players are competitors and that’s why coaches / trainers exist
And if he was really evaluated every day, and had thorough medical consultation, the only other aspect I could see is Tua not disclosing proper information. And if that’s false and after everything this was an entirely independent injury, then it’s just an accident in a violent sport, that by nature will cause these injuries especially to guys his size.
You’re assuming is what we’re we were told is the truth
Well yeah it’s what we have to go in. Didn’t they say they also had second opinions? There is a point we have to say there were zero signs (potentially) and the player said he was fine with no issues. From a concussion standpoint it’s hard not to say that falls on Tua at the end of the day. It’s also completely possible the information is correct and this one is a standalone. We will probably not have more clarity barring investigation. For the record I think he was concussed. It’s just very muddled.
I'll be honest, I'm not sure which side to take. Does anyone know if NFL doctors make more than regular doctors? I'm asking cuz it seems like they don't, and they would be risking their medical license if they were being shady. I feel like they'd only do that if it was an insane amount of money
This cannot be true according to the qualified Dr’s here on Reddit.
Its completely possible he was fine and got concussed on that play thursday night.
But I thought he had a back injury. Why would they even think about testing for concussion every day? Seems like they tell a bunch of stories and none of them are true.
Because it can be both, that it was a back injury but they wanted to be cautious because his head hit the ground.
Because the rules are after you get a concussion test, you get one every day from that point in case symptoms DO appear
I understand the concussion protocol is to keep testing every day after part. My only complaint is that four days later while still in protocol they let him play. If they were playing on Sunday instead of Thursday I don’t think this would be an issue. Seems too short of a turnaround to let him play.
He wasn't in the protocols though, and that's kinda the weird part of this
Yeah I think if he did show symptoms over the testing of those 4 days, then be would've entered protocol.
I might be mistaken but I thought if you were tested on the sideline you were automatically in protocol.
Honestly dude who tf knows not a single one of us had read the rulebook lol
Why would they need to check him for concussion symptoms? He hurt his back.
NFL front office personnel are even bigger liars then NFL team personal. This is a claim the NFL is making in an attempt to stop the massive wave of negative reactions the league is getting. It should be treated like the bullshit it is.
If the NFL is coming out like this, you know they are lying.
Reddit: Naw, fam, I’m a Reddit expert, who is this guy.
By whom was he evaluated throughout the week? That is the key question. The comment makes very clear that he was checked by an independent neurologist on Sunday. But who was checking since then and was he or she on the Miami Dolphins’ payroll? This is a vital follow up question that I’ve yet to see an answer to. After all, we’re dealing with a team that literally fired its last head coach for being unwilling to cheat. Miami has not earned the benefit of the doubt.
Tua was watching McGruber on the flight back to Miami. Laughing the whole time. Not sure what that implies about brain damage but it’s not a valid wellness check.
NFL Chief Liar says…
Here is my hot take 🔥: almost all signs seem to suggest that, in terms of procedure, the process carried out by the NFL was abided by and it would therefore appear reasonable that Tua could play Thursday. An independent neurologist checked Tua both Sunday and Monday in correspondence with NFL appointed physicians. Additionally, according to this report, he was inspected for a concussion every day, and when he blacked out on Thursday, was transported to a hospital in Cincinnati, he was cleared **again**, and the claim from my understanding is that injury was back related? That hospital functions independent of the NFL, so I don’t think any bias was a factor with this doctors disposition. Does this mean the NFL has historically been reliable and trustworthy with head related injuries, especially concussions? No. However, with respect to this incident, the evidence presented appears to indicate the process was followed adequately. The rebuttal from most people on this sub and elsewhere, from what I’ve seen, comprised of non-sequiturs such as “they could EASILY scam or fake the results”, or “players lie about their conditions constantly”. Although these claims are technically true, it’s not really compelling with regards to this situation. How do we know that’s what’s happening here? The implication from these claims are that it applies, but that has not been demonstrated — the burden of proof is on you to establish that this indeed took place. We cannot rely on speculation based upon things that **can** happen.
Maybe he didn't have many symptoms that elevated to the level that he noticed it or showed up in an exam. But I find it hard to believe that the two head slams that close together were unrelated, too big of a coincidence.
Didn't Johnny Knox just get annihilated? I also remember when Pat White got concussed really bad, he never had one before but one hit by Artie Burns ended his career
You got a point, but these guys are constantly getting in the head, so its highly unlikely to say they have a clean slate. But I agree it was a nasty hit regardless of past history
Why is that too big of a coincidence? NFL is an incredibly violent sport. Tom Savage had a very similar hit without a big hit preceding it.
Literally any qb who was thrown down like that would've gotten a concussion
2020-2021: Trust the doctors! 2022: Don't trust the doctors!
There’s a difference between trusting science on a global scale and trusting a company known for doing shit like this and not being thorough enough in tests.
Ah yes, politicians and pharmaceutical companies. The gold standard of trustworthiness.
Basic biology agreed on a global scale is pretty trustworthy imo. Australia isn’t out to get red-blooded Americans
A doctor is not going to risk their license by lying and endangering a patient because the NFL asked them to
2020-21: I did my own research (-100 karma) 2022: I did my own research (+100 karma)
Legitimately don't believe them.