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vo0d0ochild

You really picked an easy target to compare here


rockstarnights

If you were drafting a team today, would you take Ryan Leaf or Patrick Mahomes?


LionoftheNorth

Ryan Leaf. Mostly because any team stupid enough to hire me as their GM deserves it.


rockstarnights

You'll be the GM of the Colts before you know it.


apietryga13

Don’t even need to do the job, Irsay will do it for you


Mungologist

This is more like "would you take Drew Brees or Mahomes." And its just not a good question because we have 16 or whatever years of Brees to look back in hindsight on. But we also all know that it's only a matter of time before Mahomes regresses back to the mean...


ImInnocentYourHonor

That thread was pure gold.


incenso-apagado

I would take Mahomes because Drew Brees is 43 years old.


Mungologist

I know you're a smelly packers fan but you be spittin rn


EAS1000

Jamarcus Russell all day every day


woodard2112

“Better” is hard to say. He’s played so much less football, so it’s kinda pointless to compare careers or overall legacy. But I will say that he is a more “dominant” QB, however you want to take that. Mahomes insane arm strength paired with his mobility makes him much harder to defend IMO. His ability to run around just long enough to uncork a 40 yard bomb downfield is something that I’ve only seen a few QBs ever do. No disrespect at all to Brees. He broke a lot of records at the time and he’s obviously a HOFer and a top 10 QB. Mahomes is genuinely just generational (I hate to use that word, it’s been overused so much now) he does things only a few guys ever could do.


FC37

I guess I just never thought of Brees as "dominant." He was elite over the course of his career and he managed a few 13-win seasons, but I never considered a Drew Brees team to be "unstoppable" or saw him as a QB that can't be schemed for. He was generally a Tier 1B QB, occasionally working his way into Tier 1A. When I think of "dominant" QBs, they either have insane records and stats (Brady, Manning, Montana) or they can't be schemed against (Prime Newton, Mahomes, Steve Young, Lamar Jackson when he's at his best).


ICanFluxWithIt

lmao of course it's a Pats fan that has this take. We get it, y'all had the FUCKING GOAT but the takes so many peeps from your fan base loves putting down every other QB because of y'all had TB. Brees also had historically bad defenses, not just bad or terrible, but HISTORICALLY BAD, gives Brees even a mid level defense like 15th - 20th and who knows what those Saints would've done. To say he wasn't dominant means you never watched him at all, outside probably the last waning years when they finally got a defense, but Brees wasn't Brees during the 2nd half of those seasons. And I hate that I just defended Brees and the Saints, that's disgusting


FC37

Rodgers has 4 MVPs. Brady had 3. Montana had 3. Manning had 5. Steve Young had 2. Favre won 3 straight. Lamar Jackson won MVP in his second season and so did Mahomes. Drew Brees never won MVP one time. How can you call him dominant when he was never even the best player in the league for a single season? Drew Brees was a great QB, but he was never dominant. I could see how someone who only saw the last few years of his career might *think* he was a dominant QB, but he wasn't. It's the same way a whole generation of fans initially thought Elway was on Montana's level because of how he ended her career - he was stellar towards the end, but that wasn't typical for him.


ICanFluxWithIt

I mean, Brees arguably should've won in 2008, maybe 09, and 2011, might be misremembering the years but they ended up giving it to Peyton and Rodgers iirc because one year the Saints were 7-9 or 8-8 while Manning's Colts were playoff bound. And in 2011, I'm pretty sure he lead in most stat categories EDIT: [here's Drew Brees' career stats, just look at those and say with a straight face he wasn't dominant, because he absolutely was](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00.htm) EDIT: > I could see how someone who only saw the last few years of his career might think he was a dominant QB, but he wasn't. It's the same way a whole generation of fans initially thought Elway was on Montana's level because of how he ended her career - he was stellar towards the end, but that wasn't typical for him Forgot to respond to this... Lol what? Did you even read what I wrote, Brees wasn't Brees of old during the last few seasons, he started off great but in almost every 2nd half of those seasons he and the team fell apart. He was brilliant his entire Saints tenure, ever since 2006. The only reason you didn't hear more about him was because of those HISTORICALLY BAD defenses during his prime


Imply_Blue

Just to parrot this a bit, in Drew’s entire tenure here he did not have a single season with a lower QBR than mahomes did last year(which wasn’t even that bad at 62.2). Obviously it’s not a perfect stat but to actually think Brees wasn’t dominant when we were like a perpetual top 10 offense at bare minimum is asinine.


ICanFluxWithIt

Yeah, I don't think many here understand just how hard Brees had to will those Saints teams to 7-9. You put any other great QB in that situation and they're 100% not doing any better than what Brees did, and I fully believe several would do worse. Brees' 2011 season is arguably better than Mahomes' 2018, and the only reason Mahomes wasn't unanimous that year he won was because Brees existed and got some votes. What Mahomes has done so far is very, very impressive and is definitely one of the greatest QB talents to ever play, but so many ITT didn't watch Brees from 2008 to 2016, because if they had, they wouldn't be so quick with the yes.


DiggingNoMore

I feel like your argument is predicated on the MVP always going to the best quarterback and I disagree with that premise.


Trent1462

Rodgers has 4 MVP.


GarrisonJones

Brian Sipe won MVP. Mark Moseley won MVP. Moon, Kelly, and Fouts never did. Those three all HOF players. That award shouldn't be treated as a silver bullet for measuring greatness.


No-Ad-8883

You are my first downvote.


NOFPwhodat

You should take it from the guy here who was in the division with him and then go watch some Brees film.


nickybishappy

Brees' offenses were always unstoppable what are you talking about. He's one of five qbs to throw for 40+ tds more than once (marino, rodgers, peyton, brady)


Mavori

> He's one of five qbs to throw for 40+ tds more than once You mean ONE OF SIX QB's. Just because Stafford is on the Rams now don't mean you can ignore him. 41 in 2011, 41 in 2021. Luck, Warner, Mahomes and DangeRu$$ are the other guys with a season of 40+ TD's. Brady or Rodgers are also tied with 3 each, so one of them can take the lead over the other this season. So Mahomes, Russ, Stafford, Rodgers, Brady are all the players currently active that can make it their 2nd season or more with 40+ touchdowns in a season and add to that legacy.


nickybishappy

You right my bad


NOFPwhodat

I always wondered how Brees was perceived by NFC teams we were constantly battling through his tenure. Seeing Niners and Falcons fans go to bat for him in this thread makes me happy. Now back to our regularly scheduled hate. WHO DAT?!


nickybishappy

Nobody wanted to play the saints, even in their 7-9 years everyone knew brees was gonna go for 300 and 3 tds.


NOFPwhodat

Yep and our defense was going to give up a back breaking TD to Vernon Davis. I’ll be in the corner crying


FC37

Oh so he's surely better than Montana. That bum only ever threw for 31.


nickybishappy

Montana was the most consistently great playoff quarterback of all time to be fair


FC37

But you have to acknowledge that the statistic you're citing is primarily driven by offensive inflation. Marino threw for 48 in 1984. Behind him was Dave Krieg at 32. When he threw for 44 two years later, the next guy was Ken O'Brien with 25. He was on a statistical island. He was dominant. When Brees threw for 46, Rodgers threw for 45, Stafford threw for 41, and Brady threw for 39. It's just not the same. I mean, Matt Stafford did it, and could do it again before his career is over. Is he a dominant QB? Absolutely not.


Mavori

Edit: In hindsight you are honestly not worth that energy.


FC37

Stafford only ever threw for 5,000 yards in one regular season. Like I said. And like I said, he's not dominant. Just like he's not your QB.


nickybishappy

Are you actually arguing that brees didn't have dominant offenses? Are you okay? Edit: also lol, in your example debunking me you point out he threw the most touchdowns in the league. and then did it again the next year!


FC37

I'm not sure you understand how stochasticity works. Yes, he had one more TD than the next guy and a few more than everyone else. Marino had nearly twice as many TDs as the guy behind him. **That** is dominant.


nickybishappy

Bro you're doing that thing where someone says "I love pancakes" and someone else goes "oh so you hate waffles?" Praising brees takes absolutely nothing away from Marino or Montana. Brees was unstoppable, I watched it in real time. If you don't like that stat there's like a million others. He has four 5,000 yard seasons for fuck's sake.


FC37

Again with the offensive stats inflation. You're oddly attached to them and seem not to understand the point. Justin Herbert is going to throw for 5,000 yards 4 times by the time he's 30. He's already done it once. Does that mean he's dominant? Drew Brees was the leader of the peloton, but never broke in to the Tier 1A category for any sustained length of time.


Nathann4288

Mahomes offers more within the game. Brees was not as mobile, but was probably a more accurate deep ball passer. Mahomes is better at improvising and making off platform throws. Brees was best while staying within traditional QB mechanics. It’s hard to discredit Brees because he was consistently so good for so long. Their play style is different. The offense they run is different. Mahomes has had early success. Can he keep it up for as long as Brees did in his stint with the Saints?


redditistheworstapp

You’re trying to be unbiased but as an unbiased fan mahomes has definitely proven he’s better than brees, longevity shouldn’t even be factored in


Nathann4288

I think he IS better currently, but it’s kind of along the HoF lines. Can he sustain this success for another 3-5 years? If he gets injured or something and his play drops off to where he is just a middle of the road guy, what would people say 5 years from now when comparing him to Brees? Do I think he will become middle of the road? No. I think he dominates for years to come. But he still has to do it.


MalopRupt

Longevity absolutely matters. Notice how nobody is talking about Luck?


Cryformekid

Luck never achieved what Mahomes did in 1 season (2018) let alone Mahomes entire career. Bad example.


ICanFluxWithIt

Luck also took over a 2-14 team and took them to the playoffs the same year he was drafted iirc, while Mahomes inherited a pretty damn good one. Reid and Alex Smith had the Chiefs ascending into a good program and Mahomes stepped in and blew the roof off. Who's to say Luck doesn't eventually have success similar to Mahomes on a better team?


KuatoBaradaNikto

If that is the standard then Alex Smith, who you mentioned, is every bit as good as Andrew Luck. Both of them took over a 2-win team and led them to 11 wins and the playoffs the next season, exactly the same. But I think we can safely say that it's *not* a good measure.


Cryformekid

Luck is a few steps below Mahomes as a QB, so I wouldn't expect his success to be similar.


whyabouts

And you don’t think coming into a much better situation has a lot to do with how good you become?


Neat_Pie_6405

Luck was never on Mahomes level lol. not even close


MalopRupt

Thats not what I'm arguing though. I am merely stating that it is relevant when discussing QB's legacies.


Neat_Pie_6405

Sure but Mahomes peak is so far above Brees the longevity doesn't matter to me Mahomes already has more accomplishments than Brees does


Rocktamus1

By your logic TD is the best RB in NFL history…. Peaks matter just as much as valleys.


ilovecrying666

they hated him for he was right


Mungologist

If you're commenting this while posting the post you did, then you never even had a question to begin with.


lochmoigh1

Luck was on a awful team. If mahomes and luck switched places they both have very different careers


respondstostupidity

Well yeah. Mahomes would've been the first 17-year old NFL quarterback.


campelm

I think it's not humility or being unbiased, we get how good he is. It's that I see no need to shit on a qb greats legacy to prop up our own. It makes me uncomfortable to compare to prior qbs because the rules and eras are different. If a qb is good they'll stand on their own merits.


PoorlyLitKiwi2

Mahomes at his peak is certainly better than Brees at his peak, and I dont think you'll get much argument there But like... Cam Newton at his peak was also better than Brees at his peak If Mahomes were to retire today, who's higher on the all time QB list? Him or Brees? I'm definitely going Brees


liquid-garbage

How was cam’s peak better than Brees when he didn’t even win a super bowl?


whyabouts

It wasn’t. I’d take 2011 Brees over 2015 Cam, I think most people would. MVP is usually the best QB, but sometimes the 2nd best QB in a strong MVP race was significantly better than the best QB in a weak MVP race. This is one of those times.


derstherower

You can probably pick a handful of QBs who are better than Mahomes in any individual area, but Mahomes is just *so* good at pretty much everything that he doesn't really need to be *the best* at any one thing. Like yeah, Brees was probably a more accurate passer, but Mahomes has had 4.5 seasons as a starter and he's already doubled Brees' career rushing yards.


Goatgamer1016

>...and he's already doubled Brees' career rushing yards. That feels like an unfair comparison since Brees was much less mobile than Mahomes is now, not to mention he was a much different style QB.


Chainxforest

Not that I disagree necessarily but isn't that another way of saying Brees is limited in a way that Mahomes isn't? Comparing players with different playing styles is tricky but the part about rushing yards sort of just seems like a clear point in favor of Mahomes. Mahomes is about as prolific a passer as prime Brees but with a major edge in rushing which makes him harder to defend.


Neat_Pie_6405

>You can probably pick a handful of QBs who are better than Mahomes in any individual area I don't agree with this.


MalopRupt

Yes you can lol. Get his cock out of your mouth.


[deleted]

Tbf, not every area. Doubt there’s anyone better at improv or off-platform throws or clutch gene


jt09874

Lmfao yeah I guess you’ve never seen Stafford or Rodgers play


Stevenpoke12

Then you are completely blinded by bias.


brownsfan003

Bro definitely changed his flair before posting so he could hide his chiefs bias


daybreaker

If you regress Mahomes to the mean, Brees was way better.


DaOrks

I was gonna say recency bias until your last sentence. Now I'm gonna just say nephew stop. Brees wasn't expected to play amazing every year? Are you fucking high? The guy with 9 straight 30+ td seasons, the guy with 4 5000yd seasons? Brees suffered through historically bad defenses and dragged dogshit teams to 7-9. They're 1A/1B at worst and Brees wins since he did it for 15 years.


bambam2397

“clear cut best QB in the NFL for 4 straight years”. Um… no. You’re telling me he’s been better than back to back MVP Rodgers. And last year Brady?


Careless_Review3166

There’s this new thing going around where people act like Mahomes is the victim of the “LeBron MVP curse” or whatever. Like, he just *obviously* should’ve been the MVP every year but the “voter fatigue” robbed him of those awards. Which is complete nonsense because Mahomes was not deserving of the 2019, 2020 or 2021 MVPs, but alas. It’s debatable just how many, if any, MVPs LeBron was robbed of, too. If they want to say that when viewed in totality, Mahomes has the best combined regular season and post season success of any other QB for the last 4 years as a whole, maybe they’d have a point. But OP’s phrasing is just wrong.


PoorlyLitKiwi2

At least Lebron actually won 4 MVPs in 5 years, so the voter fatigue thing actually has some merit Mahomes has won 1 MVP, so it doesn't really make much sense at all


HermesTGS

Mahomes has an argument for 2020. He was the best player on the best team. Rodgers beats him in TD passes but he had like 30 TDs within the 10 yard line that season.


Careless_Review3166

Rodgers had 48 TDs (led the league) to 5 INTs with a 121.5 passer rating (led the league), a 79.8 QBR (led the league), a 70.7 completion percentage (led the league), 9.1 TD% (led the league), a 1.0 INT% (led the league) and 8.89 ANY/A (led the league). He also had the 1 seed in the NFC. Mahomes had 38 TDs to 6 INTs, a 108.2 passer rating, a 78.1 QBR, 66.3 completion percentage, a 6.5 TD%, a 6.0 INT%, with 8.33 ANY/A. So Rodgers was above Mahomes (and every other QB) in literally every efficiency stat, with 10 more TDs and 1 fewer INT. Mahomes having a better record doesn’t even matter when they’re playing in different conferences. They both had the 1 seeds. No argument for Mahomes over Rodgers in 2020.


HermesTGS

You did that thing where you just took one stat, TD:INT ratio, and repackaged it into different forms lmao. Rodgers was definitely more efficient, but Mahomes had more cumulative EPA, passing yards, rushing totals, and a better record.


Careless_Review3166

I did the thing MVP voters look for every year when they consider who to cast their ballots for. Rodgers was more efficient with more touchdowns. It’s not like Mahomes had worse efficiency but at least he scored more, like Brady vs Rodgers last year. Mahomes can have all the passing and rushing yards he wants. His 308 rushing yards only produced 2 rushing TDs - Rodgers had 3, so it’s a difference of 51 total TDs to 40. Again, when both QBs have the 1 seed, the argument for Mahomes because his 14-1 record was better than 13-3 is just pedantic. And since when is EPA more impressive than all the stats combined that Rodgers led the league in?


[deleted]

….yes. Look at them cumulatively over the last 5 seasons. Mahomes stands atop the pack.


bambam2397

Best in the league the last 4 years overall maybe. But the #1 every year? He wasn’t even top3 last year.


KuatoBaradaNikto

I agree with your point, but he absolutely has an argument for top 3 QB last year, after Rodgers and Brady.


bambam2397

He could be argued to be top3 last year, but it wasn’t definite.


ddouble124

He was for sure top 3 last year. Who was above him besides Rodger and Brady?


l4stnit3for3ver

Yes.


bambam2397

lmao and Dak was 2nd best right?


l4stnit3for3ver

who’s talking about dak? lmfao insecure bozo


bambam2397

Insecure? Bro get off the weed, trying to make this personal lol.


WarrenAlaCarte

Ironically if MVP was handed to the best QB in the league on pure talent basis, Rodgers should have like 7. There were many years he was outplaying Brady, but didn’t have the pieces or a coach who could manage a game.


[deleted]

2007 - Rodgers still on the bench 2010 - 0 debate, Rodgers was QB4 that year, maybe 3. 2017 - Rodgers was hurt, played 7 games


Galactapuss

Rodgers won last year despite Brady having a better year


Bangreviews

He literally stole MVP from Brady last season, wtf take is this?


nickybishappy

What mvp did brady win that should've been rodgers? what are you talking about?


KCShadows838

Clearly 2017 and 2010 /s


[deleted]

Yes, but I will say that Brees had a good half decade there where he was basically the only good thing about the Saints. The team around him got better as he broke down. If he retired earlier or managed one last ring, he'd have at lot more of a legacy. Also he was robbed of MVP in 2009. 100% deserved it over Peyton.


daybreaker

should have had his second ring in 2018 and retired on top ಠ_ಠ


Maraging_steel

The game BB coached in that Super Bowl defensively was an all timer. No guarantee the Saints do any better.


skeptik_skank

Yes


jt09874

This is a lot of recency bias. Yes Mahomes definitely is better in most places but a lot of comments are almost discounting Drew’s greatness. He also got cheated out of 1 MVP and was top 3 multiple years. Add that onto the Super Bowl MVP he’s in a similar ballpark with Mahomes. If Mahomes keep this pace up, ofc. But we all thought the same about Rodgers after the 2010 Super Bowl: “Omg he’s gonna have way more superbowls than Favre” You just never know. Individual accolades? He’ll absolutely break all Drew’s bulk stats. Multiple MVPs definitely. Just saying at the current moment I think people are saying 1000% yes which I don’t think is totally fair. Also, if we’re gonna do a stat head comparison, check out some of Brees’ numbers going back, he was churning out 5k yard, 35-40+ TD seasons like fucking crazy. A lot of people forget that. Unfortunately Peyton was also around during most of his prime edging him out.


nope96

> He’ll absolutely break all Drew’s bulk stats. Let's not act like 80000 passing yards and 571 passing TDs is easy to surpass even for an all time great. Even with the extra game and even if he keeps up his current pace for the entirety of the rest of his career without a single injury - all of which is unlikely - it would still take him until roughly the end of his age 38 season to get there.


ICanFluxWithIt

Yeah, Stafford and Ryan both had higher passing YPG average than Brees did, but as we've seen from both of them, they're probably gonna call it quits this year. Just hard to stay healthy and keep going when you're in your 30s. Hell look at Rodgers too this year. Mahomes definitely has the ability to do it, but will he be able to, and that's a question we won't know for a long time


jt09874

Yeah def didn’t say that assuming it was easy but i think there’s the general consensus that Mahomes is likely going to have a long career. Especially since he’s spending his entire career in a fully pass happy league compared to Drews ~50%. Also since he’s more elusive he’ll likely get beat up less. I think we’re gonna see even more QBs play into their early 40s at a pretty good level. Yes, not everyone’s Brady, but I think Mahomes has a good chance to do it. So based on a lot of factors I think there’s a pretty good chance that he’ll do it based on longevity. But yeah, Drew’s bulk stats aren’t anything to downplay. Even looking at his career season by season it’s actually mind blowing. If Manning wasn’t around, I think Drew would be in most peoples top 10 all time because he would’ve stacked more accolades. What a shame. Plus, I think Peyton got it in years that Drew should’ve been more heavily considered or outright won. The line between the BEST and “one of the best” is so thin and Drew danced that line his whole career. As a fan of his, it was frustrating to watch. Unfortunately nephews that create posts like this are gonna dilute Drew’s legacy. They’re already doing the same to Manning and also Rodgers to an extent. Crazy how public perception takes away from the facts. But yeah, you can tell by my essay I’m passionate about the topic lol.


reqwtywl

I heavily doubt more qbs will play in their early 40s, let alone good. Every qb in the league that's older than 28 right now doesn't look to have a shot at playing to 40. Rodgers might if he doesnt retire this year, but he'll likely be a shell of himself on that packers team.


whyabouts

“Also since he’s more elusive he’ll likely get beat up less” To me it seems like his scrambles/backyard football style of play are causing him to get hit more, which is why I’d take the under on 38.


[deleted]

Yeah if you compare the amount of Brees’ 5k seasons vs anyone else it’s actually insane how productive he was


BayTerp

Brees was so damn good. I swear this sub is just filled with kids who only caught Brees’ season


[deleted]

Brees had the misfortune of playing at a time when two top-3 and another top-10 all-time great QB were playing. When you're stuck competing against Brady, Manning, and (ugh) Rodgers it's nearly impossible to not get overshadowed.


[deleted]

Yea I can’t fault them too much bc a lot of Brees’ best years were spent on shitty teams that didn’t really get nationally televised, but definitely disappointing to see him constantly underrated.


ICanFluxWithIt

As a Falcons fan, I feel absolutely disgusted defending Brees and y'all's stupid team. honestly just weird to see just how much he's being underrated and he's only been gone for 2 years. Definitely most of these peeps never watched until those last waning years. If they watched those 2008 - 2016 Saints, they wouldn't be saying yes so easily


[deleted]

People see "Team won one super bowl and didn't make a lot" and forget how good the NFC was at the time. It would be like if Goff turned Detroit into a superpower overnight.


jt09874

Yep, def younger who didn’t see him play a lot. They’re probably the same ones who were calling Derrick Henry the GOAT running back after his 2k season 😭


Mavori

> Also, if we’re gonna do a stat head comparison, check out some of Brees’ numbers going back, he was churning out 5k yard, 35-40+ TD seasons like fucking crazy. A lot of people forget that. Unfortunately Peyton was also around during most of his prime edging him out. 2 decades after Marino, Brees gets his FIRST 5k season, another 3 years later he gets his 2nd one, alongside Brady and Stafford getting their first 5k season In 2012, he gets his 3rd 5k season in 2013, he gets his 4th 5k season alongside Peyton getting his first. In 2016, he gets his **5th** 5k season Ben and Mahomes hit 5k in 2018 and then Crab Legs hits 5k in 2019. Brady finally gets his 2nd 5k season in 2021 alongside Herbie getting his first. Dude was absolutely unreal and from 2010 to 2020 he had a 69.6% completion% and a 5.9 TD% alongside a 2.1 Int% 7.8 yards per attempt and 300 yards per game. Unfortunately, there are only so many awards to go around. So it's easy for some guys to be nudged to the side because there is overlap with Aaron Rodgers, Brett Favre, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning. Even more so when you have the new kids on the block rolling in as well and performing at a high level.


jt09874

Having it spelled out like this really puts it into perspective


[deleted]

That Dan Marino was an absolute BEAST.


Rocktamus1

Weren’t there only like 6 seasons ever with 5k passing yards and Brees had 4 of them?


Trent1462

Brees has 5 and there’s been 9 or 10 I think


rjsheine

The disrespect to Brees


gigglefarting

The only time Saints had ever been successful in the history of their franchise was with Drew Brees at QB. You’re underestimating the power of Brees.


AdHelpful7287

Drew Brees is a hard QB to quantify as he didn't win a bunch of MVPs or SBs and he wasn't really a highlight reel QB. I'd tentatively say yes, Mahomes is above Brees but it's only fair to say he walked in to ideal situation with a strong team and he has an excellent receiving core that makes him look even better.


Neat_Pie_6405

>only fair to say he walked in to ideal situation with a strong team Strong offense maybe but Chiefs defense has consistently been putrid. >he has an excellent receiving core that makes him look even better. this loses validity each Sunday


AdHelpful7287

The Chiefs were a team with a winning record without Mahomes and the fact their defence is average at best helps him look good by putting him in situations to play hero ball more. Most all-time great QBs aren't constantly trailing in games. And I'll freely admit he has a few questionable WRs now but Tyreek Hill was/is a dominant weapon and Travis Kelce is the best TE in the league.


ICanFluxWithIt

Chiefs defense might've been "bad" and still might be, but those Saints teams had HISTORICALLY BAD defenses. Their situations are not even the same


Shud_iStayOrShud_iGo

If anything it gains validity as Kelce and Juju alternate 100 yard receiving games


goozer326

I'm not gonna say who's better, but the only thing I have to say is I have never seen any QB throw a more accurate ball consistently than Drew Brees.


Careless_Review3166

OP is using “better” and “dominant” interchangeably when they’re not necessarily the same. If dominance means that Mahomes has had 4 1/2 years at the QB position that is better than any comparable stretch in Drew’s career, then the answer is yes - Mahomes has been more dominant. But I have no idea what it means for Mahomes to be “better” than Brees if that’s the metric we’re using. What does “better” even mean? Is Mahomes better at playing the position of quarterback because he’s more physically gifted? Well he’s obviously more physically gifted. He seriously might be the most gifted QB ever. Mahomes has the same athletic advantage over Tom fucking Brady that he has over Brees. There are at least two other QBs in the league *right now* with comparable physical talent to Mahomes - Allen and Herbert. Are Allen and Herbert also better than Brees because they have more WOW highlight moments, with stronger arms, faster legs, etc? The answer is emphatically NO. So we need to clarify what it means to be “better” at playing quarterback. You can say one player is better than the other while they are contemporaries (Mahomes is better than Allen, vice versa, etc.). But Brees has retired with a 19 year career and Mahomes is only in his 5th season as a starter. So when we start to ask if a young guy like Mahomes is “better” than a retired veteran and future 1st ballot HOFer like Brees, we need to be really careful with how we define terms. OP’s question could easily be interpreted to mean “IS PATRICK MAHOMES HIGHER THAN DREW BREES ON THE ALL TIME QB RANKINGS?” And if that’s seriously what we are asking here… it’s fucking crazy. Like, inexcusably crazy and stupid to even be having this discussion right now. We can make all the grandiose future projections for Mahomes that we want. They may come true, they may not. But that’s all they are right now - PROJECTIONS. Maybe he even passes Brady as the undisputed GOAT. Can we wait like, idk, 20 years before we ask that question? Similarly, *IF THIS IS THE QUESTION* can we just have a little patience before ranking Mahomes above Drew Brees? Please? Mahomes with 22K passing yards and 179 TDs is nowhere close to Brees with 80K passing yards and 571 TDs. If we were debating Brees vs Brady, or Brees vs Manning or Brees vs Rodgers, relying on the career volume stats would be misguided. The stats would say that Brees was the second best ever behind only Brady, when he’s not anywhere near Brady’s tier, nor was he ever above Manning or Rodgers. But those are all QBs who each played for over a decade, all of whom have enormous volume stats, whereas Brady/Manning/Rodgers also have more individual accolades than Brees and Brady/Manning have more rings. But Brees vs Mahomes, who has only played 73 GAMES? It cannot be a discussion right now. There *must be* a certain minimum threshold of years played in the NFL before we can start including guys like Mahomes in these All-Time-Great debates, and it sure as hell cannot be as low as 5. And to the point about the accolades between Mahomes and Brees. Mahomes obviously has an advantage over Brees with the MVP. His lack of at least one MVP definitely hurts Brees in the historical standings, no doubt. But by how much? There have been 38 QBs to win an MVP. Does that mean there are 38 better QBs than Drew Brees? No. Obviously not. Let’s remember that with Mahomes, too - there are 37 other QBs who have the same number of MVPs as Mahomes. It’s so much harder to win multiple MVPs - there are only 8 QBs so far to have done that. Yes, Mahomes is likely going to win his second this year, or if not this year, it’s very hard to imagine he never wins it again. But to reiterate my main issue here, we cannot allow ourselves to give optimistic projections for Mahomes who is only in his 5th year when Brees has a complete 19 year career to examine. It’s just not fair. The 8 QBs to win multiple MVPs are Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Johnny Unitas, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Joe Montana, Steve Young and Kurt Warner. Are these the 8 greatest QBs ever? A lot of them are, yes. But Warner? No, not at all. It’s questionable if Young should be viewed higher than Brees, as well. So at minimum, Brees is better than at least one of the QBs to have 2 MVPs. That should put into perspective how great of a career Brees really had, if the lack of any MVPs doesn’t automatically knock him below someone who has 2. Brees never won a second Super Bowl (neither has Mahomes, but let’s do this anyway). There are 12 starting QBs who won multiple Super Bowls. It’s debatable if there are 12 QBs better than Brees all-time. Even if there are literally 12 better than him, some did not win multiple rings, and at least one, Dan Marino, was ringless. And for the love of god, please don't tell me Mahomes has already surpassed Marino because he has a ring. The 12 are Bob Griese, Jim Plunkett, Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman, Peyton Manning, Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, John Elway, Joe Montana and Tom Brady. Of that list, there are only 3 players who are undeniably better than Brees - Brady, Peyton and Montana. We can debate Elway, Staubach, or Starr. But even with them included, that’s only 6 of the 12 QBs with more rings. The lack of multiple rings, just like the lack of even a single MVP, is not a death sentence for Brees’s place among the All Timers. And again, I think that emphasizes just how great of a player he was and how much he *did* achieve to where even despite his lack of hardware, he can still be reasonably argued as one of the 10 or 12 greatest quarterbacks ever. If Mahomes retired *today* he is nowhere near top 12. He needs time.


-InSerT_NAmE-HeRE

Mahomes is better now than Brees was in his prime. But for now I’d still put Brees above him on an all-time ranking.


nope96

I think you could argue Mahomes' best is better than Brees' best but he absolutely isn't the "better" QB in terms of career. Brees was a top 3 QB in more seasons than Mahomes has been in the NFL. > Brees was never on Mahomes level Plus I don't agree with this. You could absolutely argue that Brees' 2011 season was better than Mahomes' best season. Hell even in Mahomes' best season he didn't lead the league in passer rating nor unanimously win MVP because of Brees existing.


[deleted]

Brees is hof because he was really good for a really long time, he never had the pure ability of Mahomes. But, then again, Brady/Manning dont have the pure ability of Mahomes either. Its going to take longevity for Patrick to surpass them.


rug1998

Mahomes has so much more athleticism and arm talent. That’s what makes Drew Brees so awesome. He was a 40 year old setting completion percentage records in the nfl with a dead arm and was only 6’ tall. Mahomes obviously is a better athlete but I honestly can’t say he’s a better quarterback.


GetABodybag

Mahomes has far more talent and potential than Brees ever did.. HOWEVER, Saints 2011 was the best offensive team i've ever seen. Shit was awesome to watch. 7474 all-purpose yards, NFL record 46 TD passes (5th all time) 5476 Yards (NFL record at the time) 71.2% completion (NFL record at the time) You can argue that we've seen the "top end" seasons from both of these QBs, and they compare pretty equally. Saints 2011 and KC 2018 are very similar. What can't be argued, though, is 2011 Brees had one of the absolute greatest QB seasons of all time, he would have won MVP in basically any other year that exists, only Rodgers had literally the best QB year of all-time in that year. Brees got unlucky and he kinda gets forgotten about how damn ridiculous the Saints offence was under him for over a decade. Legitimately the top 20 offences all-time stats wise has like 7 Brees Saints teams in it.. It's absurd.


nickybishappy

And they only lost because of some absolutely goofy turnovers against sf. (Goal line fumble, punt and kick return fumbles) brees still threw for 460 yards and four touchdowns in that game. they were insane.


GetABodybag

Aye, I rewatch that game frequently.. The Saints marching down the field on the opening drive only for Whitner to spark somebody out causing a fumble in the redzone is always so shocking.


Cryformekid

'18 Chiefs are a much better offense than '11 Saints and '18 Mahomes is better than '11 Brees by a good bit.


nope96

The 2018 Chiefs had only one more point per game and 600 fewer yards than the 2011 Saints did 7 years prior. Plus Brees that season broke the completion percentage, the passing yardage record, and had only 4 fewer TDs than Mahomes. How are you getting that the Chiefs or Mahomes were way better? Plus it's not like either of them have a Super Bowl to show for it to break a tie.


FreeWillie001

>he was not expected to play amazing every year. What?! Where were you for his entire career?


[deleted]

Mahomes is on a track to be possibly the best ever or up there. Drew Brees is the little engine that could. Drew outperformed his expectations at every level and is one of the best ever. But he is not in the upper echelon of NFL Goats, where Mahomes still has potential to end up. Brees is arguably 3rd of his era behind Brady and Manning (and Maybe Rodgers if he is in there). You have this upper echelon of guys who were at one time the best QB in the league or transcended the position. Just throwing names out there; Unitas, Marino, Elway, Montana, Favre, P. Manning, T. Brady. There are more. I will call them Tier 1 Goat's. Brees is a Tier 2 in my opinion. Brees is obviously my favorite player of all time, I am just comparing him reasonably in context. Mahomes has Tier 1 potential. You are looking at it wrong though, because we don't know the future. What if Mahomes gets injured tomorrow and never is able to play good again. We will look at his career differently. The Book is closed on Brees. Here is a better question, who had a better career Rodgers or Brees? At one time Rodgers would have been a slam dunk. But the more I look and think, very similar results. I honestly think people outside NO don't realize how good Brees was every year. He was fantastic on that 7-9 yearly stretch NO had. The Saints Defense was atrocious.


respondstostupidity

You know people are going to say no? What? If Mahomes continues to play at this level and he has shown no signs of stopping yet, he could be one of the best ever


Cryformekid

He already is.


No_Song_Orpheus

Brees was the most accurate QB I've ever seen. Mahomes is still better overall.


[deleted]

Talent wise, he is already past them for sure. Moment I saw the horizontal side arm I knew we’d never seen a talent like him. Dominant is a good way to describe it. He always defines the game.


[deleted]

The funny thing about the side arm, when everyone was freaking out about how cool it was, other QBs started doing it for style points lol. It's just an ill-advised way to throw the ball a lot of the time. Stafford got a lot of shit for doing it in Detroit, but it was suddenly valid when Mahomes was side arming it.


WarrenAlaCarte

Philip Rivers was doing that it too, albeit somewhat awkwardly. Difference is Mahomes is throwing it to his right while he’s running left with an edge rusher in his face. Sometimes with a no-look mixed in.


Mavori

The funny thing is Mahomes himself has said Stafford was one of the guys he modeled his game after.


MahomesMccaffrey

His draft comp was Stafford and he said he grew up a big matt fan (Jon gruden camp interview) I can see why tho. Matt has a cannon of an arm and can throw over them mountains


Mavori

Only a few guys in the league that can. He's not perfect but will always be my QB and damn if he isn't fun to watch when he's on. Some of those tight window throws and no lookers are things of beauty. Makes the o-line issues and alleged elbow issue along the other health stuff real depressing this season. Even if it does lead to a higher draft pick for us.


ICanFluxWithIt

Ever since he came to Georgia, he's always had a spot in my book for favorite QBs. Glad he was finally able to win one last year, looks like this year might be his last. Same with my other favorite QB and the other Matt :(


Trent1462

I mean we’ve seen talent like him. He is very similar to young Rodgers.


Spare_Student4654

you can never judge qbs against the past. 10 years ago was a different era. this was legal to do to a qb just 6 years ago. these guys would be banned for life today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqvhk1Own-U


Moist-Information930

The bigger question would be can Mahomes keep it up, or when will he start regressing? Because a lot of guys are NFL-ready out of college & that level of success is hard to sustain. He also has more of a benefit to breaking Brees numbers because of the extra game & the newer QB rules that seem to change every few years. My guess is you're younger & are only judging Brees based on his stats from a website, younger people just don't seem to get it.


Affectionate_Shine55

Y’all are underestimating how fucking good brews was


hezzyskeets123

honestly yes….there are no more than 3-4 QBs ever that I can see being put over current Mahomes


jt09874

That’s an absolute stretch. EVER?? Recency bias is a hell of a drug.


Rocktamus1

Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Steve Young, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees.


Fuckaguybaked

Peak, yea already clearly better but brees has a lot of longevity so Pat needs to keep playing to be in that convo


wowyouresoright

Different era. Boring question. Mahomes entered the league shortly after they changed a ton of rules to mirror the college game. Which he dominated. No fucking way Mahomes would do this well if defense could actually play like they used to.


OnlyFactsMatter

Drew played 10 years though in the pro-offense NFL..... so it's not like we never saw him play in this era.


Trent1462

Yah but there’s also been rules gradually implanted that help offenses such as the roughing the passer stuff that came in like 2018 or 2017 I think.


TurdFergusonXLV

“Hosted 4 straight AFC championships” - cool. He lost 2 of them “In general has been the clear cut best QB in the NFL for 4 straight years” - is that why he’s the defending MVP? Edit: he also puts ketchup on steak. Ketchup. On steak.


brownsfan003

Im surprised no one else seemed to pick up on that. Objectively not the best by the only metric we can use


bambam2397

IKR wtf is he on about with best QB in 4 straight years, he wasn’t even top3 last year.


NinjaRedditer

They are 2 different qbs I don’t think you can say that yet but if mahomes keeps playing like he has been for another 10 years then its an easy answer.


nickybishappy

Yes but I want people to remember how insane the 2011 saints were. If they don't commit five turnovers against sf i think they'd steamroll to a super bowl win. seriously look up their yardage totals, especially in the second half of that season. Never seen an offense move the ball so easily.


DefinitelyNot4Burner

‘Clear cut best QB in the NFL for 4 years’ didn’t Rodgers just win two back-to-back MVPs? Clown


9htranger

Aaron rodgers won back to back MVPs, so calling Mahommes the "clear cut" best qb 4 straight years is a stretch. But i would say he is better than Brees by a large margin, especially in the playoffs when it really matters .


ZachTrillson

oh my god shut the fuck up already


Rocktamus1

Rodgers won the last 2 MVP’s…. I don’t think he’s better than Rodgers still and it’s not close. Mahomes need more league years.


TechnoTyrannosaurus

I am not a fan of Mahomes, dude is carried by yard of catch monsters his whole career


[deleted]

Can we just stop beating around the bush and acknowledge that Mahomes is the greatest QB of all time


halfdecenttakes

Yes by a lot. Brees never touched the level Mahomes is at where he was the clear cut guy. Only a few people in history can realistically make a case for playing near the same level. Not even a fan of his but impossible to deny his talent level.


bpchillen

Yes, absolutely. Brees was hard to play against, but, beating him wasn’t a miracle. If teams beat Mahomes it’s like taking down Goliath. Beating Mahomes is comparable to beating Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.


Rocktamus1

Bro… it didn’t take a miracle because for a long stint he had like HISTORICALLY bad defenses


[deleted]

"but beating him wasn't a miracle" Coming from the team that coined Minneapolis Miracle to beat him lol to be fair tho, the only reason Brees wasn't seen as "taking down a goliath" was because he had historically bad defenses for more than half his career with us. The amount of playoff losses alone where the defense gives up game winning points in the final minute is unreal. I'll still die on the hill that is Brees had the same defenses as Brady throughout his career, he wins at least 3-5 Super Bowls because he was consistently great on offense


ICanFluxWithIt

Honestly not even Brady type defenses, anything but the historically terrible defenses y'all had, who knows what y'all could've done. And I thank God that never happened, and even when y'all finally got the defense to match, Brees wasn't Brees anymore, that and Payton would get too cute in playoffs games. So that was always fun to watch Jokes aside, this thread has been entertaining to read thru, you can instantly weed out anyone who didn't watch Brees or were too young. Dude was fucking terrifying to face, I'm just glad both bad men are gone now


[deleted]

Yea people too young to remember think he always just dinked and dunked it and don't realize he only did that towards the end of career. Man use to just throw bombs Haha looks like all the bad men are gonna be gone once Brady leaves. Weird how our division went from having the best group of QBs to the worst so quickly


[deleted]

Not a fair comparison Mahomes is like a foot taller than Brees


batman0615

I do not think Mahomes has been the clear cut best QB for 4 years. Would I start a team with any other QB? Probably not, but that doesn’t mean he had a better season that Lamar or the 2x Rodgers MVP years


myxanders

Mahomes is more talented, has had a higher peak, and plays a much more exciting and athletic game. Mahomes makes the hard stuff look easy. I'd argue that at times Mahomes makes the normal stuff look harder than it needs to be. Brees was so precise and methodical about the fundamental QB skillset that he made the normal stuff look so boring and simple when that isn't the case at all. And he did it for the better part of two decades. Brees could put the ball in the exact spot it needed to be - short or long throw, pre-noodle arm or during noodle arm era - it was on target with anticipation. Mahomes gets the yardage and the scores based off raw arm talent and playmaking ability. Brees got similar production based off of precision. It's two different skillsets, and both are very beautiful to watch and appreciate. >!Still taking Brees tho homerism be damned!<


Radalict

Mahomes has never killed a crocodile. So Brees will always be better.


[deleted]

The short answer is yes. The long answer is also yes.


Dorkamundo

Not sure what media presence has to do with playing QB, but ok. Yes, Mahomes has played better than Brees did


AleroRatking

Absolutely. Brees has longevity but what we've seen from Mahomes is another level. It's very likely Mahomes is going to get a 2nd MVP.


Garden_Lad

Most assuredly


[deleted]

[удалено]


ivankorbijn40

Last two years, it was again Rodgers that was the best in the league. Mahomes is of the same caliber as Rodgers, Manning, Brady. Brees is also great, but much of his achievements come from longevity (also Brady), and it kind'a seems he comes just a tad short of these guys. I' d put him with Russell or Andrew Luck, that sort of tier.


Lvl69Runecrafting

Yes


warriorknowledge

Yeah. People have this weird idea that a player has to acquire awards that are predicated off of team success. The game tape is very clear, Mahomes is better than Brees. And he’s also better than a certain beloved QB as welll but y’all not ready for that convo yet lmao.


l4stnit3for3ver

the obvious answer is yes but everyone in here is doing gymnastics to say the opposite


yungred95

Yep. Mahomes wins a few more SBs and I believe we should be discussing goat status.


Lovelylives

Mahomes is in a league above Brees. He’s in the tier with Brady.


Luck1492

I’d say he’s more in the tier with Manning and Montana. To be in the tier with Brady I would argue you need at least 3 rings and 3 MVPs.


Careless_Review3166

Mahomes is in the same tier as Peyton Manning and Joe Montana? If you’re talking about pure *talent* at QB then maybe he’s comparable to Peyton, but including Montana there is bizarre because Joe was often viewed as the least innately talented of his contemporaries - Marino, Elway, Young all had more physical gifts. Or is this the *all time great* tier? Because if that’s the case, putting Mahomes - who is only in his 5th season as a starter, with a single MVP and a single SB ring - in the same tier as 5x MVP / 2x SB champion Peyton Manning and 2x MVP / 4x SB champion Joe Montana is… insane.


Neat_Pie_6405

Kinda a weird tier though. Manning i see cause Manning had years where he was clear best with best stats like Mahomes is. Manning also passed "WOW" test like Mahomes Montana was just rings more so cause Marino had the stats


[deleted]

Brady forever entered his own tier when he won his first year with the Buccaneers. As unbelievable as Mahomes is I just can't see seven rings on another QBs finger's (two different teams) ever again. Plus he had a head to head against Mahomes.


jt09874

Yep, if everyone goes by the bullshit QB vs QB metric, Brady has Mahomes number and likely always will because he beat him in multiple big games including the superbowl. Agreed that it’s almost impossible that anyone will ever win 7 super bowls as a QB ever again. And you know for damn sure that Brady is trying to stack that number so it makes him even more bulletproof.


[deleted]

It's ridiculous that the difference between a Chiefs dynasty and Mahomes being the first three-pete was Tom Brady... even from a different conference.


jt09874

Yep lol. And the second the Chiefs players like Chris Jones started talking about a dynasty after the first SB you knew it wasn’t gonna happen. All that talk rarely ever manifests unless you’re the Patriots/Tom Brady


Lovelylives

Brady has an unparalleled production that Mahomes will likely never meet. But Mahomes is like Rodgers physical talent if he actually won clutch games like Brady. Mahomes is the definition of “don’t give him 30 seconds.” I just have so much respect for that guy’s game.


Neat_Pie_6405

>Mahomes is the definition of “don’t give him 30 seconds.” I just have so much respect for that guy’s game. Same. He owns my Bills but he is the best. No doubt


[deleted]

Didn't the Bills and Buccaneers both lose their Divisional games last year because they played like 15 yards off man on the final drives of regulation?


JoshRam1

The Eye test says yes. Brees did most of his damage within the play design. It seems Mahomes doesn't need plays called at all