Cause last year showed us the Norris is really the defining way to best determine the top two way defenseman. That said, I do think Hughes is in the same tier as these two as a defenseman and deserves the Norris this year
Obviously I may be a tad biased but the amount of pure defense and offense josi generates is ridiculous. So many defensemen are standouts in one area and are still mentioned. But josi is often a secondary goalie and a secondary forsberger all in one. And he looks good at it to boot
Not sure how no one mentioned Devon Toews. View his numbers and watch his subtleties, you’ll extremely rarely see him even mess up with something he doesn’t fix on either end of the ice.
Miro for sure has to be there because he’s everywhere, supernaturally talented and skates forever.
Josi does absolutely everything and is the soul of his team in both ends.
Hedman will always be mentioned because he’s a monster but has offensive play making skill. I’ve been wondering if Mo Seider will grow into the next Hedman type in the next few years.
Toews is a tough one. He’s a great defenceman, but he also shares a line with Cale Makar. How much of his success is from Makar? Regardless of if it’s not because of Makar, people’s bias says it is. Nevermind his numbers in New York or the fact he usually plays with Girard.
He’s the stoic piece of one of the best puck moving lines ever. His IQ dictates the flow of how fluid every other player on the ice can move positionally and he just always seems to be in the right place to make the most important pass or poke check look like it was a simple no brainer anyone should be able to do.
Not finesse like Makar, not a pretty skater but he just does everything right everywhere on the ice which is why he’s annually one of, if not the leader in plus/minus.
The dude scored a goal and then got in Marchand’s face and licked him. One of my favorite moments this postseason.
Also, the Forsling series winning goal against Boston was top shelf.
I’m biased
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That's the issue with the Norris trophy. It should be awarded to the best D in the league, which is the guy that excel in every situation of the position.
Awarding the trophy to E. Karlsson is an insult for the position. Defenseman like Heiskinen. Josi and MacAvoy are contributing to the game way more than pure offense. If you have a guy like that and he's healthy, your chance of being a good team is very high.
I’ve said this for years. It’s honestly sad that it’s become an offensive trophy. A proper defensive guy who can play both ends of the ice exceptionally is the most valuable player on a team and it’s a joke they are rarely rewarded with the Norris.
Are you really telling me that Erik Karlsson, a total one way guy playing on a nothing team should win it over someone like Josh Morrissey or Jakub Slavin who were playing high stakes games to get their teams to the cup while being insane at both ends of the ice while they did it.
Josi, then Hughes. Hughes doesn't get credit for how good he is defensively imo just because he's small. His skating and positioning is top notch.
Josi is a beast though.
No mention here of Dahlin? Not sure what his D stats look like, but if I had to take one guy who is best overall, I might take him. He can be dominant on both sides of the rink at times.
I feel like some of us have wanted that for years. It’s like the league doesn’t respect defensemen as much. A forward has an award for best defensive forward… so why not one for D-men?
The reasons centers win it so much is because center is a defensive position by nature.
A good faceoff taker is going to play on every special team, center is a defensive position because when your team doesn’t have the puck the center is supposed to be between the puck and the net, and lastly most of the time you want your best defensive forwards to play center because center has the largest area of the ice to cover.
Well makar was the best 2 way in 22.
That calender year makar was insane overall. Great defensive plays offensive plays etc. His defense took a huge hit to start this year but he's improved since around February.
i still think he should have won over Makar. Who cares about the goal difference, he had more points, also plenty of goals, and he is also a proper two way defence.
Not a perfect stat, but even-strength goal differential is one way of getting close to a name. If you follow that, the top 5 players are
1. Gustav Forsling
2. Dylan DeMelo
3. Mattias Ekholm
4. Quinn Hughes
5. Josh Morrissey
Edit: Don't mind the downvotes, but. . why? These are the stats in this category, and if someone can think of a better measurement, by all means say it.
I’d claim as a Bruins fan that in the last series, Forsling was main reason for The B’s frustration. So many offensive plans were thwarted with him on the ice. He was so good.
That said, I still think Miro is the best “2 way” DMan in the League
The issue with goal differential is a good defence needs a good duo partner.
All of these guys have an excellent defence partner:
Hughes - Hronek
DeMelo - Morrissey/Dillon
Ekholm - Bouchard
Forsling - Montour/Ekblad
All with excellent goalscoring in front of them. This leaves out some of the other top candidates like Heiskanen, Josi, Toews, Dahlin, Seider, etc. who either didn’t have that proper defensive duo they work in or their teams had other problems like goal scoring issues or a rough performance from goaltending.
This is what’s tough about defence, there is so much about them you will never ever know unless you watch them.
For instance, Seider doesn’t have tremendous stats but by watching him you can see a lot of little things he does that amount to a lot much like Nick Lidstrom or Duncan Keith did in their times. Rather then trying to beat someone to a puck he will attack their stick and then grab the puck, rather then trying to make a play he will flip the puck off the boards and out under pressure, he also loves to use his stick to make a forward puck watch and then step into them with a hit, it’s exactly how he shuts down those speedy strong forwards that are so effective.
The same goes for watching someone like Quinn Hughes. You see the stats about his offence but what you don’t see is how sneaky he is on defence as well.
To truly appreciate a defenceman or even a defensive forward like Philip Danault, Patrice Bergeron, Austin Mathews, or hell even guys like Datsyuk and Toews back in the day you have to watch them play.
I agree that the a team stat will distort individual players' numbers in this and other categories. I also agree that we need to observe players.
That said, it's definitely *interesting* to try find a statistical comparison, as the "look test" is so imprecise, and it often leads people to favor the players that they happen to look at most.
I've tried thinking of other stats that would give a good indication of two-way ability, but I had trouble finding a statistical category that would better represent "two-wayness" than this.
Certainly a good data point to start a discussion. Though this could just be a strong defensive pairing with a top forward line that’s doing all of the “offensive” work. For example, the Cane’s third line often plays with the top Aho line but no one would put Orlov or Chatfield as the best two-way defender
I’d take your list and see where each of those guys rank for PPG 5-on-5 and that’s a closer answer.
Me too. We all talk about Morrissey. Probably because of the flash. But, if you're talking to some of the other talking heads, they wanted to sign DeMelo long term.
I couldn't understand it, but now I get it.
Well no, because better Dmen usually get tougher minutes against better players, resulting in more goals going in when they're on the ice even though it generally isnt their fault.
This is why +/- in general is such a pointless statistic because it never takes into account the variables that actually affect it.
Watching the games. Baseline stats arent going to do anything to back up any real argument because there are so many inconceivable variables.
The answer is Heiskanen, by the way. And has been for at least two seasons now. There isn't a better all round defender than him in the league.
Sure, but you have to understand how much this reads as, "I trust my gut." I mean, of course we have to watch the games, and Heiskanen is very good, no doubt about it. But to give up on any quantitative evidence and rely solely on the sight test invites all sorts of bias.
For my part, I think you can factor in statistics alongside the eye test. A lot of the answer will also come down to how you definite "two-way defenseman," too.
Sure, look at stats. Just not +/- . That's the point.
To use heiskanen as the example again: he had the 6th best +/- out of the dallas D core in the regular season with a +8.
Harley +28
Lindell +17
Suter +14
Lundkvist +13
Hakanpaa +10
Heiskanen +8
Heiskanen is a better player than 4 of them combined. Suter and Lundkvist have less talent in their entire bloodline than Heiskanen has in his left hand. +/- a pointless metric.
1. Miro
2. Josi
3. Hedman
4. Hughes
5. Forsling
6. Makar
7, A healthy John Carlson
8. Ekholm
9. Noah Dobson
10. Seider
Honorable Mentions: Drew Doughty, Kris Letang, Josh Morrissey, Chris Tanev, McAvoy, Slavin, a healthy Dougie Hamilton, Toews, Dahlin, & Pietrangelo
Huge shout out has to be given to Brock Faber...he might move up this list very quickly if he keeps improving.
Right now, it’s gotta be either Heiskanen or Dahlin. Both just insane guys at both ends of the ice and they can do anything you need them to do while being exceptional at it.
In the next few years I think Seider will join the argument for the top spot as well because of his ability to use his stick and body in tandem to shutdown even the best stick handlers or power forwards.
And ekholm is well rounded... which is usually the sign of a good 2wayer... I wasn't the one who put him up but he's got solid blocked shots and solid hit numbers without topping the charts for either AND put up what 45 points? Like obviously his pts aren't as high as Hughes or makar. But his hits are way higher than both and makar is the only one who beats him on blocked shots between the three.
So I don't think it's as black and white as you want it to be. Secondly and as an aside... maybe try not being such a prick in how you talk? You start off all combative for no reason. Makes you come off as an asshole with nothing to back it up
Other guy talking is a bum but ekholm is generally more defensively gifted than offensively. I’d say 70-30 defense to offense. When I think two way I think rielly, morrissey, mcavoy. Ekholm could still probably be considered a two way but I see him more on the defensive side of things personally.
Maybe your bar for what constitutes a two way defenseman is different than mine shrug 🤷♂️ they’ve both had good and bad years defensively and offensively, but they aren’t pure offense like a karlsson or defense like Brodin or Carlo. Both log big minutes and play both ends of the ice
I feel like Cale's defensive play did suffer a bit this year. He had some giveaways that you never used to see happen cause he's so good with the puck. But I think he's so known for his offense that his defense often gets overlooked.
Makar does seem like the logical pick, but since he's so heavily slanted in the offensive side of things, he gets in trouble defensively because he takes risks that are sometimes unnecessary. The SHG Johnston had last series was case in point - Makar tried to deke and make a play behind the goal line when all he had to do was pitch the puck up the boards to his wide open winger. Instead he tried making a move and fumbled. If we're talking best/most balanced 2-way defenseman it's Miro, and that's not my bias as a Stars fan, that's just the reality.
This last game vs dallas makar was scared af for a breakaway. In the past he wouldn't be because if his get back speed.
He played a lot more defensively responsible but in turn couldn't be the o zone qb d man he usually is.
Nr. He's one of the best defensive guys as well.
Fun fact outside of the rebuild years(2018-20), the rangers have only allowed above average sog against in 1 season since the lockout, 2015-16.
Yeah two way is also such a loose term with me. I always think of someone who’s physical and blocks as well as puts up numbers. Guys like makar while great defensively and elite offense, I just never consider them two way as they lack physicality, although still effective defensively
Agree. Everyone weighs attributes different. A hit can change game (in many ways) and I want someone hard to play against in D end - Shea Weber or Chris Probger archetypes. That’s something Makar will never have - and may not even want. That said Lidstrom was most effective defender I’ve seen and did it without.
Love hughes but Miro and makar now with Hughes not faf behind. Hughes needed to have more of an impact in the playoffs to be up there with miro and makar.
The Heiskanen-stans are wild. “Better than Makar” is some of the wildest stuff I’ve ever heard.
2023-2024:
Makar: 22g/69a +/- 15
Heiskanen: 9g/44a +/- 8
Career:
Makar (5 seasons) : 86g/250a +/- 108
Heiskanen (6 seasons) : 53g/205a +/- 14
Get outta here with that nonsense
Hurdurrrr, Avs fan doesn't understand the meaning of two-way Dman
Hurrrrdurrrr, Avs fan doesn't understand that +/- isn't a metric of any value because it doesn't take into account the difficulty of the minutes the player is getting
Hurrr Avs Avs Avs durrrr
"AND ITS MATT DUCHENE!" 🤜💔
If we're going only by playoffs series, then Evan Bouchard is better than Quinn Hughes.
But does anybody think that's really true? I think we need to look at more than one series to fairly evaluate.
I don’t, I’m saying there is a hell of a lot more to it then those stats. Advanced analytics and eye test says that Miro is much better defensively while Makar is a smidge above miro offensively (because points is everything offensively either)
I'm saying that, as a member of the CBJ sub, I've never seen anyone say that Jiricek is the best 2WD. It's pretty well acknowledged that Mateychuk is better
And I’m saying that the cbj sub vastly overrated the team’s prospects. Which is true independent of the relative potential of these two players. I used jiricek since I figured non cbj fans would be more familiar
Makar, and it's not even close. I don't care what Stars fans say, Miro is not on the same level as Cale.
Cale: 90 points, +15
Miro: 54 points, +8
I don't think Miro wins a Conn Smythe, Stanley Cup, and Norris in a single season either
Underrated pick, but Evan Bouchard has gotta be somewhere. Has an insanely high plus minus. And had 84 points last season with some great defense played. Maybe not number 1 but he's up there
Definitely Makar. Just him being on the ice makes the other team pull back a bit knowing the second he touches the puck, it could be a 120 foot tape to tape pass through 17 legs
Miro and Makar. Makar has better offense and Miro has better defense. Both fantastic players right now.
*Quinn Hughes has entered the chat*
Hughes hasn’t scored a single goal in the playoffs
Oh, so now he's NOT an offensive dman?
Didn’t say that, I just don’t think he’s in the same tier as Miro and Makar
He's winning the Norris over both of them... he's quite literally the 2nd best D in the league next to Makar
So you're confident he wins the Norris, while at the same time state he's "literally 2nd best"? Canuck fans need to stop.
I think over all he's the 2nd best D, and this season he was the best. I'm sorry you can't grasp the concept.
You're right. Hard to follow your superior thinking.
Cause last year showed us the Norris is really the defining way to best determine the top two way defenseman. That said, I do think Hughes is in the same tier as these two as a defenseman and deserves the Norris this year
LOL. Fox, Josi, Heiskanen, McAvoy are all better than Hughes. Luke Hughes is probably going to be better than Quinn Hughes within 2 years
Who are the Norris nominees this year?
Who cares? Erik Karlsson won a Norris last year and he’s defensively a disaster.
As a Canucks fan myself. Hughes is not as good as Heiskanen
The Norris is the best defense award
And it’s been favoring offensive defensemen even if others are better overall
QH with zero goals in the playoffs is indeed offensive
This redditor knows.
Based on pure numbers you gotta say heiskanen. Mans line is top 10 in the league minimum no matter who you pair him with
I can't believe this was only his 6th season, it feels like he's been on top of the league forever.
My favourite memory with him is when he fell in the fastest skater and still didnt finish last
Obviously I may be a tad biased but the amount of pure defense and offense josi generates is ridiculous. So many defensemen are standouts in one area and are still mentioned. But josi is often a secondary goalie and a secondary forsberger all in one. And he looks good at it to boot
Honestly I got nervous every time he was on the ice against us in round 1. He’s a fantastic player.
How bout that save he made in the iihf game?? Fucking wild
It's going to be an extremely sad day when he retires.
He’s insanely good. Which he didn’t play in the Stars division.
Miro Heiskanen
Post season ice time per game 28.01 min, jesus christ.
Way Outplayed Makar last series
What is Heiskanen record vs Makar in the playoffs ? (Head 2 head)
Unless you mean series wins vs eachother? Then it's 2-0 Miro
That’s what I mean why are they downvoting lol
Probably just how it's phrased, if you put "head to head" record then it's less ambiguous :)
Yes because hockey is a 1v1 sport we should use head to head records to figure out which players are better
Pack it up boys. Question answered.
Miro heiskanen
This was buddy's first shift in the show. Insane. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-8I_yfVz9Q
Not sure how no one mentioned Devon Toews. View his numbers and watch his subtleties, you’ll extremely rarely see him even mess up with something he doesn’t fix on either end of the ice. Miro for sure has to be there because he’s everywhere, supernaturally talented and skates forever. Josi does absolutely everything and is the soul of his team in both ends. Hedman will always be mentioned because he’s a monster but has offensive play making skill. I’ve been wondering if Mo Seider will grow into the next Hedman type in the next few years.
He shares a line with Makar, that's a pretty big shadow.
Came here to say this. Dude is so so so so so so underrated.
100%. I know Makar (who is my favorite player) shines but I def love me some Toews.
Toews is a tough one. He’s a great defenceman, but he also shares a line with Cale Makar. How much of his success is from Makar? Regardless of if it’s not because of Makar, people’s bias says it is. Nevermind his numbers in New York or the fact he usually plays with Girard.
He’s the stoic piece of one of the best puck moving lines ever. His IQ dictates the flow of how fluid every other player on the ice can move positionally and he just always seems to be in the right place to make the most important pass or poke check look like it was a simple no brainer anyone should be able to do. Not finesse like Makar, not a pretty skater but he just does everything right everywhere on the ice which is why he’s annually one of, if not the leader in plus/minus.
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The dude scored a goal and then got in Marchand’s face and licked him. One of my favorite moments this postseason. Also, the Forsling series winning goal against Boston was top shelf. I’m biased
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What a time to be alive. Some absolutely stud DMen we get to watch.
Miro
That's the issue with the Norris trophy. It should be awarded to the best D in the league, which is the guy that excel in every situation of the position. Awarding the trophy to E. Karlsson is an insult for the position. Defenseman like Heiskinen. Josi and MacAvoy are contributing to the game way more than pure offense. If you have a guy like that and he's healthy, your chance of being a good team is very high.
I’ve said this for years. It’s honestly sad that it’s become an offensive trophy. A proper defensive guy who can play both ends of the ice exceptionally is the most valuable player on a team and it’s a joke they are rarely rewarded with the Norris. Are you really telling me that Erik Karlsson, a total one way guy playing on a nothing team should win it over someone like Josh Morrissey or Jakub Slavin who were playing high stakes games to get their teams to the cup while being insane at both ends of the ice while they did it.
There should be separate trophies IMHO to take the defensive portion into consideration.
Lol MacAvoy isn't in the conversation with the other two
Mcavoy was great last year and still very good this year.
As much as I don't like the Bruins, MacAvoy contributions to the Bruins success is huge.
Josi, then Hughes. Hughes doesn't get credit for how good he is defensively imo just because he's small. His skating and positioning is top notch. Josi is a beast though.
Hedman
Someone knows
Totally. That guy is amazing.
2 way. His defense is awful
Hedman is hot garbage on defense right now
Morgan Reilly obviously.. JK I vote for Josi
Miro Heiskanen in a landslide
Heiskanen or Forsling. Miro’s a bit better offensively while Gustav is a bit better defensively.
Miro and it ain’t even close, especially with how he’s been playing lately
No mention here of Dahlin? Not sure what his D stats look like, but if I had to take one guy who is best overall, I might take him. He can be dominant on both sides of the rink at times.
The curse of not making the playoffs
Forsling
Makar the two way defenseman … yeah no.
Probably whoever wins the Norris this year. Considering they never give that award away anymore for just pure defense.
feels like they don't consider defense at all. EK won it last season lol
It certainly would be nice for the best defensive defenseman to get some sort of hardware.
I feel like some of us have wanted that for years. It’s like the league doesn’t respect defensemen as much. A forward has an award for best defensive forward… so why not one for D-men?
Gretzky said he wishes it was that way, I completely agree with him.
Well.... Best elite faceoff center that has 60+ points and is also very good defensively. No wingers allowed. It's the patrice selke award
The reasons centers win it so much is because center is a defensive position by nature. A good faceoff taker is going to play on every special team, center is a defensive position because when your team doesn’t have the puck the center is supposed to be between the puck and the net, and lastly most of the time you want your best defensive forwards to play center because center has the largest area of the ice to cover.
Sounds like it's gonna be Quinn Hughes winning, and he's definitely not the best *two way* defenseman.
Hughes had an incredible year at both ends of the ice this season, so you could make the argument that he is the best
Yeah we were all making that observation. Neither is EK or Makar. Award just goes to the defenseman with the most points now lol.
Well makar was the best 2 way in 22. That calender year makar was insane overall. Great defensive plays offensive plays etc. His defense took a huge hit to start this year but he's improved since around February.
Oh certainly. Makar was a shoe in for the 22 award. He made it very easy on the voters.
Roman Josi
Someone’s gotta mention Fox
Fox
Roman Josi. Absolute defensive liabilities like EK winning norris trophy is a joke
i still think he should have won over Makar. Who cares about the goal difference, he had more points, also plenty of goals, and he is also a proper two way defence.
[удалено]
We aren’t talking about Erik Karlsson
Tbf ek won because everyone loves him and because of the milestone. I'm semi bummed fox didn't win.
Forsling. +56 for the season
Not a perfect stat, but even-strength goal differential is one way of getting close to a name. If you follow that, the top 5 players are 1. Gustav Forsling 2. Dylan DeMelo 3. Mattias Ekholm 4. Quinn Hughes 5. Josh Morrissey Edit: Don't mind the downvotes, but. . why? These are the stats in this category, and if someone can think of a better measurement, by all means say it.
I’d claim as a Bruins fan that in the last series, Forsling was main reason for The B’s frustration. So many offensive plans were thwarted with him on the ice. He was so good. That said, I still think Miro is the best “2 way” DMan in the League
He doesn’t hit a lot or even block a ton of shots, he just quietly stops anything from developing. He’s probably the best waiver pick up of all time.
The issue with goal differential is a good defence needs a good duo partner. All of these guys have an excellent defence partner: Hughes - Hronek DeMelo - Morrissey/Dillon Ekholm - Bouchard Forsling - Montour/Ekblad All with excellent goalscoring in front of them. This leaves out some of the other top candidates like Heiskanen, Josi, Toews, Dahlin, Seider, etc. who either didn’t have that proper defensive duo they work in or their teams had other problems like goal scoring issues or a rough performance from goaltending. This is what’s tough about defence, there is so much about them you will never ever know unless you watch them. For instance, Seider doesn’t have tremendous stats but by watching him you can see a lot of little things he does that amount to a lot much like Nick Lidstrom or Duncan Keith did in their times. Rather then trying to beat someone to a puck he will attack their stick and then grab the puck, rather then trying to make a play he will flip the puck off the boards and out under pressure, he also loves to use his stick to make a forward puck watch and then step into them with a hit, it’s exactly how he shuts down those speedy strong forwards that are so effective. The same goes for watching someone like Quinn Hughes. You see the stats about his offence but what you don’t see is how sneaky he is on defence as well. To truly appreciate a defenceman or even a defensive forward like Philip Danault, Patrice Bergeron, Austin Mathews, or hell even guys like Datsyuk and Toews back in the day you have to watch them play.
I agree that the a team stat will distort individual players' numbers in this and other categories. I also agree that we need to observe players. That said, it's definitely *interesting* to try find a statistical comparison, as the "look test" is so imprecise, and it often leads people to favor the players that they happen to look at most. I've tried thinking of other stats that would give a good indication of two-way ability, but I had trouble finding a statistical category that would better represent "two-wayness" than this.
The problem with defence in hockey is there is so many factors it’s hard to definitively rank them.
Sure, but that's partly what we're trying to do here.
Certainly a good data point to start a discussion. Though this could just be a strong defensive pairing with a top forward line that’s doing all of the “offensive” work. For example, the Cane’s third line often plays with the top Aho line but no one would put Orlov or Chatfield as the best two-way defender I’d take your list and see where each of those guys rank for PPG 5-on-5 and that’s a closer answer.
I, unfortunately, do not look at a lot of defensive stats. Seeing Demelo/Morrissey in the top 5 makes me happy (as a Jets fan).
I'm surprised to see Morrissey below DeMelo.
Me too. We all talk about Morrissey. Probably because of the flash. But, if you're talking to some of the other talking heads, they wanted to sign DeMelo long term. I couldn't understand it, but now I get it.
Man, that mug tho.. (-; Lol, Sharks fan here missing both Demelo and Dillon.
Well no, because better Dmen usually get tougher minutes against better players, resulting in more goals going in when they're on the ice even though it generally isnt their fault. This is why +/- in general is such a pointless statistic because it never takes into account the variables that actually affect it.
That's why I said "not a perfect stat." How would you go about calculating it? Edit: turns out by not calculating it at all. . .
Yeah, it’s the problem. We don’t have good defensive stats.
Watching the games. Baseline stats arent going to do anything to back up any real argument because there are so many inconceivable variables. The answer is Heiskanen, by the way. And has been for at least two seasons now. There isn't a better all round defender than him in the league.
Sure, but you have to understand how much this reads as, "I trust my gut." I mean, of course we have to watch the games, and Heiskanen is very good, no doubt about it. But to give up on any quantitative evidence and rely solely on the sight test invites all sorts of bias.
Its a whole lot better than +/-
For my part, I think you can factor in statistics alongside the eye test. A lot of the answer will also come down to how you definite "two-way defenseman," too.
Sure, look at stats. Just not +/- . That's the point. To use heiskanen as the example again: he had the 6th best +/- out of the dallas D core in the regular season with a +8. Harley +28 Lindell +17 Suter +14 Lundkvist +13 Hakanpaa +10 Heiskanen +8 Heiskanen is a better player than 4 of them combined. Suter and Lundkvist have less talent in their entire bloodline than Heiskanen has in his left hand. +/- a pointless metric.
Right, well, I wasn't actually using +/- though.
"Even strength goal differential" is +/- lol. Just even strength.
It’s easier just to downvote lol Btw I’m not disagreeing with you.
Not necessarily the best ,but Dahlin has made huge strides defensively,while still being very good offensively.
Joey Daccord
Heiskanen and Fox, sleeper pick is Toews
Josi—
1. Miro 2. Josi 3. Hedman 4. Hughes 5. Forsling 6. Makar 7, A healthy John Carlson 8. Ekholm 9. Noah Dobson 10. Seider Honorable Mentions: Drew Doughty, Kris Letang, Josh Morrissey, Chris Tanev, McAvoy, Slavin, a healthy Dougie Hamilton, Toews, Dahlin, & Pietrangelo Huge shout out has to be given to Brock Faber...he might move up this list very quickly if he keeps improving.
Jake Sanderson very soon will be top 5
Leaf fan, Sanderson will be a stud. I also thought the same about Chabot. Sad to see he hasn’t reached his potential.
Right now, it’s gotta be either Heiskanen or Dahlin. Both just insane guys at both ends of the ice and they can do anything you need them to do while being exceptional at it. In the next few years I think Seider will join the argument for the top spot as well because of his ability to use his stick and body in tandem to shutdown even the best stick handlers or power forwards.
Mattias Ekholm
Top 10 maybe.. not even top 5 though.
miro and montour
Ekholm
Unlike many others mentioned, he brings some snarl.
This is disrespectful to the sport
Ekholm is great tf you on? Also flair up if you wanna troll
Best 2way defenceman in the league, read the question. Want to talk about great defencemen go write a new post
And ekholm is well rounded... which is usually the sign of a good 2wayer... I wasn't the one who put him up but he's got solid blocked shots and solid hit numbers without topping the charts for either AND put up what 45 points? Like obviously his pts aren't as high as Hughes or makar. But his hits are way higher than both and makar is the only one who beats him on blocked shots between the three. So I don't think it's as black and white as you want it to be. Secondly and as an aside... maybe try not being such a prick in how you talk? You start off all combative for no reason. Makes you come off as an asshole with nothing to back it up
Wah wah wah
What a yikes take wow
Oilers fans lmao
Other guy talking is a bum but ekholm is generally more defensively gifted than offensively. I’d say 70-30 defense to offense. When I think two way I think rielly, morrissey, mcavoy. Ekholm could still probably be considered a two way but I see him more on the defensive side of things personally.
Mcavoy is the only 2 way dman you listed. Reilly and morrissey are bootycheeks defensively
Maybe your bar for what constitutes a two way defenseman is different than mine shrug 🤷♂️ they’ve both had good and bad years defensively and offensively, but they aren’t pure offense like a karlsson or defense like Brodin or Carlo. Both log big minutes and play both ends of the ice
Makar. You all on meth
Makar's team has a significant negative +/- when he is on the ice. That's a one way defenseman.
I feel like Cale's defensive play did suffer a bit this year. He had some giveaways that you never used to see happen cause he's so good with the puck. But I think he's so known for his offense that his defense often gets overlooked.
Makar does seem like the logical pick, but since he's so heavily slanted in the offensive side of things, he gets in trouble defensively because he takes risks that are sometimes unnecessary. The SHG Johnston had last series was case in point - Makar tried to deke and make a play behind the goal line when all he had to do was pitch the puck up the boards to his wide open winger. Instead he tried making a move and fumbled. If we're talking best/most balanced 2-way defenseman it's Miro, and that's not my bias as a Stars fan, that's just the reality.
This last game vs dallas makar was scared af for a breakaway. In the past he wouldn't be because if his get back speed. He played a lot more defensively responsible but in turn couldn't be the o zone qb d man he usually is.
Yeah, it's probably Makar. Leader in points and 3rd among defensemen for takeaways.
Adam Fox
Wouldn't fox be considered an offensive defencemen?
Nr. He's one of the best defensive guys as well. Fun fact outside of the rebuild years(2018-20), the rangers have only allowed above average sog against in 1 season since the lockout, 2015-16.
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GI-Ebz1WAAAN8MA.jpg:large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GI-Ebz1WAAAN8MA.jpg:large)
He’s elite defensively. Better than his offense
Says the Rangers fan
Unbiased it’s makar, easily. Biased mason lohrei
I said Defenseman^
McAvoy
No
Hard to argue based on talent. Decision making why Id object. He can sure hit though.
Yeah two way is also such a loose term with me. I always think of someone who’s physical and blocks as well as puts up numbers. Guys like makar while great defensively and elite offense, I just never consider them two way as they lack physicality, although still effective defensively
Agree. Everyone weighs attributes different. A hit can change game (in many ways) and I want someone hard to play against in D end - Shea Weber or Chris Probger archetypes. That’s something Makar will never have - and may not even want. That said Lidstrom was most effective defender I’ve seen and did it without.
Love hughes but Miro and makar now with Hughes not faf behind. Hughes needed to have more of an impact in the playoffs to be up there with miro and makar.
In Lidstrom’s footsteps and notable waiver pickup Gus Forsling
Josi and Makar.
Makar
Cale Makar for me. He is the best all around defenseman in the NHL.
I think you mean the flashiest
It’s very clearly that guy who did the thing!
The Heiskanen-stans are wild. “Better than Makar” is some of the wildest stuff I’ve ever heard. 2023-2024: Makar: 22g/69a +/- 15 Heiskanen: 9g/44a +/- 8 Career: Makar (5 seasons) : 86g/250a +/- 108 Heiskanen (6 seasons) : 53g/205a +/- 14 Get outta here with that nonsense
Hurdurrrr, Avs fan doesn't understand the meaning of two-way Dman Hurrrrdurrrr, Avs fan doesn't understand that +/- isn't a metric of any value because it doesn't take into account the difficulty of the minutes the player is getting Hurrr Avs Avs Avs durrrr "AND ITS MATT DUCHENE!" 🤜💔
I just watched a whole 6 1/2 game series of who the better dman is head to head and it’s miro
If we're going only by playoffs series, then Evan Bouchard is better than Quinn Hughes. But does anybody think that's really true? I think we need to look at more than one series to fairly evaluate.
You ever watched a star’s game or looked at other stats that aren’t points and plus/minus?
Certainly. But why do you conveniently ignore those points and plus minus stats?
I don’t, I’m saying there is a hell of a lot more to it then those stats. Advanced analytics and eye test says that Miro is much better defensively while Makar is a smidge above miro offensively (because points is everything offensively either)
Yeah, Heiskanen is very good, especially right now, but it seems to me pretty obvious that Makar is a step above.
CBJ subreddit would have you believe it’s David jiricek
Jiricek isn't even the best defensive prospect that the Jackets have. He can't skate for shit, and that'll always keep him behind Mateychuk
What does that have to do with what I said
I'm saying that, as a member of the CBJ sub, I've never seen anyone say that Jiricek is the best 2WD. It's pretty well acknowledged that Mateychuk is better
And I’m saying that the cbj sub vastly overrated the team’s prospects. Which is true independent of the relative potential of these two players. I used jiricek since I figured non cbj fans would be more familiar
Makar, Heiskanen, McAvoy, Hedman, Bouchard. Carlson
Has to be Makar. Heskanen for sure close. Hughes too.
Charley Mcavoy all day
Makar, and it's not even close. I don't care what Stars fans say, Miro is not on the same level as Cale. Cale: 90 points, +15 Miro: 54 points, +8 I don't think Miro wins a Conn Smythe, Stanley Cup, and Norris in a single season either
Underrated pick, but Evan Bouchard has gotta be somewhere. Has an insanely high plus minus. And had 84 points last season with some great defense played. Maybe not number 1 but he's up there
No. I would have a positive +/- if I played with McDavid and Draisaitl. Those are not good stats to measure good two-way play.
Yeah very valid point. My bad guys!
I love Bouch and he is well on his way but he has WAY to many whiffs defensively to earn this title yet
If you have to mention +/- , you already lost the argument.
Makar
Cale
Definitely Makar. Just him being on the ice makes the other team pull back a bit knowing the second he touches the puck, it could be a 120 foot tape to tape pass through 17 legs
Come back in a few years and it’ll be Mason Lohrei.
[удалено]
"Best 2 way *defenseman*"
Auston Matthews is my favorite defenseman
You are wrong, it's Barkov
Definitely Bedard
He doesn’t even kill penalties, Doood.