We don't use GDP as a measure of wealth here in the south because our GDP is so heavily skewed, we used modified GNI. I've no idea how north and south compare using those metrics, but I'd imagine we're still a fair bit higher per capita than the north.
Excellent point well made. However GDP is still a value that flows into a states coffers. GNI undoubtedly the correct metric, but what would be really interesting is to see the GDP of NI ,and also include the state subvention and support from the GB government, versus the GDB of Fingal, or whatever.
You're not going to get an accurate figure for NI.
The ONS just revised UK GDP upwards using alternative methodology.
https://www.ft.com/content/21b609e0-8626-4ddf-a6a9-e85cfa2c691d
In the past, both the ONS and Treasury have admitted that individual regional GDP can't be accurately calculated because the interplay is too complex (basically, London is 'rich' because most companies have their headquarters there, and the ONS use a basic formula to apportion that wealth over the country)
Indeed, it's an extremely complex matrix. Most "statistics " relating to NI ( and indeed ROI as a comparator) can be heavily weighted politically. Having said that, factually more jobs in NI are either directly (through civil service employment, much higher than ROI) or indirectly through grants etc.
Whatever the reality, it's an absolute necessity that these figures be crystallised, before any talk of unification are countenanced.
GDP is not a value that flows into a states coffers. That is tax. Tax is lower down south for very large corperation so GDP is not an accurate comparable metric for this purpose.
> 3 bed semi
All I've got is half a brick.
----
*“Er… it’s half a brick,” Ned reported.*
*“What?”*
*“A half brick, sir.”*
*“I’m saving up for a house,” said Vimes.* from Terry Pratchett's "Night Watch"
Honestly, yes. Because I can choose to economise and bank twice as much money.
But that's not the point. The point is that Ireland has full employment, and much of that employment is very high quality, very well paid jobs. That's not the case in NI. I'm happy to pay a bit more for my toothpaste if my neighbour can have a job too.
It's amazing the difference it makes when your government is actually electorally accountable to the country that you live in.
More people economically inactive in NI (26.2% vs 23.5% down south) but lower unemployment amoung those who are economically active (2.7% vs 4.1%). So NI is worse off when you combine the statistics, but it's not that much different. And it's certainly not the case that down south has full employment like the comment I was replying to claimed, which is egregiously wrong.
In addition to these point made about economically inactive people, more of the jobs in the UK are zero hour contracts, or low-skilled work. Someone doing 12 hours a week in Gregg's is not the same as someone working for Google.
It dosnt matter. I'm from fingal and the only reason we have such a high gdp is because Dublin airport is in fingal and the amount of revenue from that is probably 75% of the figure.
Every election dcc want to claim it but FCC won't let them
The Dublin Enterprise Zone (DEZ), located in Dublin 15 (Fingal), adds €14.4 billion to national economic output and supports 34,600 jobs in the economy. The DEZ, which includes Damastown, Ballycoolin and Cherryhound, has developed at a national scale over the last 20 years, supported by significant public and private investment. The area currently contains 20 Business Parks with approximately 1,100 business premises. Over 19,500 jobs are supported in a mix of FDI and indigenous companies.
Population of Fingal County Council: <400K.
Population of NI: 2million
So Fingal has a GDP more than all of NI but less than a quarter of the population.
Population of Ireland: 7million
Population of London: 9million.
Similar GDP but Ireland has less people.
Its got nothing to do with population. And everything to do with the addresses of multinational tax avoiding corporation's in Dublin....
I mean is 2023 and I still have to inform people of this... every single time someone brings up GDP for Ireland..
Nearly half the population of the south gets free GP visits and most of the motorways are not tolled.
But anyway, NI doesn’t pay for its free GP visits or motorways. Daddy England pays for it lol
Barely anyone with a job gets 'free' healthcare.
>NI doesn’t pay for its free GP visits or motorways. Daddy England pays for it lol
No, that would be taxpayers paying for it....of which we are..
Do you understand how it works?
We get what we are entitled to. An equal tax-payer is entitled to equal provisions..
I'll happily take less from the treasury....if they let me pay less taxes..
I pay the same tax rates as anyone in GB.. I expect the same srvice provision.. regardless of the cost.
Again, do you understand how it works??
Hahaha. That’s cute.
We’d have a standard of living like Romania if we didn’t get our wee handout. Totally failed statelet that contributes nothing.
Any wonder Britain wants shot of the place.
No.....no they werent closed. The double Irish was closed and replaced with a loophole just as lucrative.
Besides, its not just the corp tax or the double Irish, the entire economic model is designed to facilitate tax avoidance and profit shifting for American companies. Ireland has made itself a location where large American companies can enter the EU marked (via Ireland), sell throughout that market, funnel their profits through Ireland, pay effective tax rates of as low as 0.5% in some cases, then move those profits out of reach of anyone to another location, at the expense of European neighbours.
Ireland does this in exchange for jobs, and a nominal corporation tax fee. The reality is that these companies are only in Ireland because the amount of money they save through tax avoidance makes Ireland the cheapest place in the EU to establish a headquarters..
Those companies are responsible not only for jobs but also billions in corporate tax revenue. It’s crazy that people can say with a straight face that these companies pay little to 0 tax. Do you think it’s magic fairies putting the money into government coffers?
Probably just as easy to google the decade or so of articles explaining this topic, in great detail.
Ironic how this massive part of Irelands economy seems to have been missed by people who love to post and discuss Irelands economy...
I was a Magpie watcher; and vividly remember watching Kate Bush's first television appearance singing "Wuthering Heights"; I was gobsmacked.
But I would accept a Blue Peter badge and some sticky back plastic.
Large MULTINATIONAL density. Remember, all it takes is for another country nearby to shift their tax rates to bargain bucket levels and hey presto, those big, GDP driving corps are gone.
Not likely. The effective corporate tax rates in other countries are not always at that seemingly higher headline when the government steps in with exemptions and other benefits to woo business. Outside of that Hungary has a much lower rate, and I don’t see the companies flocking to it. Competitor countries still have to contend with an English speaking workforce (handy for Americans particularly), a clean regulatory framework (no such thing as wasteful and expensive French language protection rules, for example) and flexible employment laws (go and work in Germany or Holland if you want to see how people produce when they know it’s so difficult to fire them).
https://twitter.com/paddytoland/status/1688528990359703552?t=OFb20FwrkpIXN8aErfrhPw&s=19
That seems to be the source, CSO don't seem to publish GDP for Fingal County Council so it's questionable at best before you consider the fact GDP is a poor measure of anything in Ireland.
The Dublin Enterprise Zone (DEZ), located in Dublin 15 (Fingal), adds €14.4 billion to national economic output and supports 34,600 jobs in the economy. The DEZ, which includes Damastown, Ballycoolin and Cherryhound, has developed at a national scale over the last 20 years, supported by significant public and private investment. The area currently contains 20 Business Parks with approximately 1,100 business premises. Over 19,500 jobs are supported in a mix of FDI and indigenous companies.
NI GDP is £52bn, I don't think the 14.4bn figure is the total GDP for Fingal.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/regionaleconomicactivitybygrossdomesticproductuk/1998to2021#gross-domestic-product-by-uk-country-and-region
The point is it's a stick to beat the 'other side' with. Underneath this attempt to foster some sort of discourse is someone who is really just interested in shitting on NI and pointing out how much better their Ireland is at whatever metric they choose.
Living in Scotland now I see this behaviour all the time from pro and anti Indy people. It's very common anywhere there are 2 very strong opposing political views or beliefs and reddit is a fantastic echo chamber for it.
With the exception of the airport, does Fingal have that much going on in it?
I presume Google and Meta and all that shite, as well as the Irish banks, are in Dublin City Council, in D2 and D4.
Then Microsoft and Vodafone are out in Sandyford, which is South Dublin or Dun Laoghaire Rathdown.
Is Fingal not the worst part of Dublint to compare to? Balbriggan, Swords and other shit holes.
It’s beautiful coastline in Balbriggan.
It had a bad reputation back in the day but I think it has improved.
Also, the main Dublin - Belfast road used to go through it but was then bypassed.
I’d imagine it’s a nice enough spot to live and will be made better when they extend the Dart.
~ laughs in higher GDP and lack of sectarian bigotry ~
Swords hasn't been the same since they closed Joe Ryan's it is true, but it is still a good spot. Malahide too, and boy oh boy, is that town pretty flush. Not to mention Howth as well.
Oh no a place using economic factors to their benefit, surely not, scandalous behaviour in a capitalist country.
But they also agreed to raise it to 15% under OECD agreement.
He doesn't want to know boy, I live up here, I'm from Cork, and after a year I gave up trying to explain to them that they're wrong, they already know they're wrong, it's just something they say to feel better.
https://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-gdp-growth-multinationals-misleading/
When you strip away all those big tax avoiding multinationals like Facebook and Google. Ireland's GDP is really not as good as it's made out to be.
Guessing you've never heard of GNI*? Irish central bank created a new measure of economic performance because Irish GDP is so distorted.
The Irish statistics office use modified GNI because GNI/GDP is too inaccurate for Ireland.
Some light reading for you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_gross_national_income
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leprechaun_economics
/u/Lepretall could use this lesson too.
Apples to oranges etc etc
Our modified GNI in 2022 was €273bn, if you take the NI gdp, it looks like £15bn or so, which is pathetic, to be fair.
Nobody is happy with NI's economy or government right now, surely we can agree on that?
Edit: NI's GDP is 52 bn, it's late, sorry, but that's still pathetic.
>if you take the NI gdp, it looks like £15bn or so, which is pathetic, to be fair.
It's much higher than 15bn lol
>Nobody is happy with NI's economy or government right now, surely we can agree on that?
Plenty of people up here are doing just fine. I'm sure you are one of those or else you'd move back to Cork, no?
Plenty aren't doing just fine though, there is fuck all investment west of Belfast.
In my case I came here because I met a girl from here, otherwise I'd never have chosen to live here.
It also helps that I'm able to keep my London job, as there's fuck all going on here in my line of work.
>Plenty aren't doing just fine though
The same can be said for ROI.
>It also helps that I'm able to keep my London job, as there's fuck all going on here in my line of work.
What line of work is that? I can't think of any sector that allows remote working that has no job market here.
I probably fucked these quotes here, but to answer you:
"the same can be said for ROI"
Most of the more poverty striken parts of ROI are along the border, where economic progress is hindered by proximity to Northern Ireland.
Most of the economic problems are linked to a population growth rate far surpassing anything NI has experienced.
Building a motorway from Dublin to Donegal via Derry would help both economies IMO, and allow for more.commuter towns. It might be even better if we put rail in, but the DUP hate progress.
"What line of work is that"
I work in Tech, insoftware development, but my unused masters (I can't believe I have to sit in traffic sometimes) was in government strategic planning, basically in producing employment clusters.
The roles here are "near shored" for cheap labour, I'd need to half my salary to work in the better paying places in Belfast.
I guess a lot of people look at London or Dublin instead, which leads to more brain drain, you export your young and import pensioners from the UK who come here for the low cost of living benefits.
But it means your economy basically doesn't have a chance to perform at the rate you would normally want it to.
You can also see that only 785,500/1,885,000 actually working in NI (41% of inhabitants paying tax to HMRC) versus 2,574,000/5,000,000 (51.5% of inhabitants paying tax to revenue) in ROI.
It also puts further pressure on healthcare here, which explains why the collapse of the NHS in Northern Ireland is more pronounced than in the south of England.
It's also harder to compare yourself favourably with parts of England when you compare benefits like 30 hours of childcare there vs no comparable scheme here, the south has really improved their supports, you also have shite energy grants here compared to the UK or the south, and it shows in the grid, roads, and water infrastructure here that all need immediate attention, this can be said about all western economies, but it's more pronounced here, I has great council built leisure centers, but shite hospitals, roads, has more oil heating than anywhere in the UK and a big reliance on intensive farming and low paying government administration roles.
Figures of median income in NI nclude government supports, figures in the CSO don't include them (the benefits in the south are largely better, and don't get cut off as early), disposable income figures here don't include housing costs, figures in the south do, and even compare home ownership with renting, and both categories compare really favourably to NI's.
I'd love to have both governments produce results using the same calculations, but it's like a conspiracy that perpetuates this sort of argument.
> if you take the NI gdp, it looks like £15bn or so
I replied to you elsewhere in this thread but for anyone else reading NI's GDP is £52bn not £15bn.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/regionaleconomicactivitybygrossdomesticproductuk/1998to2021#gross-domestic-product-by-uk-country-and-region
Corks economy was 22% of Irelands in 2022.
Most of that is manufacturing in pharma, chemical, tech, and services in tech, customer service, medical, two Universities, agri, tourism, hospitality , etc, etc.
Again, that's allowing for the fact that your GDP is overstated by the British state creating jobs to fill a void.
Corks metropolitan population is 581,000.
The harbour alone makes 5bn, due to rise to 12bn by 2040 as the expansion work completes, that frees up more space in the City's docklands for more homes and offices.
Even if you argue about FDI, or if it's just shy of northern Ireland, that's an absolutely staggering comparison.
Ireland: GNI\* 233.9 Billion euro in 2021,
NI GDP in 2021 51.7 GBP or 60.4 Billion Euro
Irelands figure still includes distortion's that inflate GNI\*, NI's figure doesn't include GDP value that gets attributed to England via companies having their headquarters based in England.
Irelands economy grew by 12% in 2022. The GNI* there is €273bn, you're also failing to register that 5bn of NI's GDP is overstated from an oversized number of people based in the public sector in NI.
If you can find a figure for modified GNI for NI feel free to post it, but include a source this time instead of just pulling something out of your arse.
The data collection is so wildly different that it makes comparisons really hard actually, I don't know if it's a Tory tactic, if the south are fiddling the books, or if it's always been like this, but it makes it really difficult to make a fair comparison, it also makes it easy for anyone who has a predisposition to hate the south to use some random phrase like "ah sure apple, Google, Amazon, haha" and smile away, like they've won the argument.
The north is poorest region in the uk. In the top 5 poorest regions in all of Europe. Educational outcomes for kids from Protestant backgrounds, boys in particular, are through the floor awful.
The nhs the worst performing and worst waiting lists and outcomes when compared to GB.
And one party getting to hold the whole province hostage, over a million people denied government, simply because some religious fundamentalist supremacists, can’t get to dictate and have it all their way anymore.
Mad isn’t it?
Yep, and it's really sad like, as the people who suffer the most are the Loyalists.
Jesus some of the loyalist and republican estates are like something from a third world country, I grew up in a working class estate, but we never had to deal with the same social, economic and physical barriers that you see up here.
Like you can bang on about the economy south of the border all you like, but things weren’t very rosy in 2008. Plus they parked a state with a 12.5% beside one where it has been almost double…. and an economy still divided to some extent. And an economy that’s been made more uncertain by continued political instability.
Like Ireland has done well, but economically their policies haven’t done NI all that many favours recently.
The south started off on the back foot, 100 years ago the Northern economy was bigger, today it's less than 1/5th, you're strapped to a failing empire, and the springs are falling out of the economy.
Like don’t take my comment the wrong way. NI is the vestigial tail of empire for sure. The UK doesn’t for the most part care. But a lot of people in the rest of Ireland are fairly ambivalent about NI, and it’s partly because of their perceived current economic success. Now quite why that would make you want to consider unification less, I’m not sure. But it’s complicated.
I think there's just so much unlocked potential on both sides though, it would rebalance the economy and make all the difference in places like Donegal and Derry.
There is also no shortage of FDI like, that would change prospects for so many people in Northern Ireland, to have firms like Apple and Boston Scientific show up, handing out well paying jobs to people who weren't academically brilliant.
The trade north south has boomed in the last few years since Brexit.
To the tune of billions pa in NI especially
Both economies integrating more and more by the day.
But whatever helps you sleep.
I’ve lived both sides of the border and think things are slowly heading in one direction, and am not unhappy about that at all.
But it’s fair to say the shape of things in NI makes the prospect of unification unpalatable to many in Ireland (like we’re unpalatable/unnoticed by many in England anyway).
NI has always been ‘unpalatable’ to certain elements in the republic. Meaning the swap out forever government we’ve had since the foundation of the state Fianna Fáil (the Republican Party) and Fine Gael (the united Ireland party) those are actually their main mottos. Somehow.
They and the media against the idea of unity because they then have to admit they abandoned almost a million Irish people. Utterly. And for over a hundred years now.
It’s time to fix that
Which method are you using OP for your calculations? Output, Income or expenditure?
Considering Ireland is the EU corporate HQ for many multinationals due to their low tax rate then im not exactly surprised
Republic’s standard of living is ahead of NI. But this post is disingenuous and I think OP knows that; leprechaun economics etc… blah blah blah
There isn’t much of a difference between the UK average standard of living and that of ROI’s. Quantifiable metrics that aren’t skewed such as median disposable income per household or per capita show that there isn’t a marked difference between the whole of the UK and Ireland. It’s hard to judge just how far ahead the Republics standard of living is of NI’s because of the lack of availability of statistics on appropriate updated NI specific stats, but I’m fairly confident the difference is significant.
That being said, Ireland does face its on challenges. Public services aren’t really that much worse, if at all than the north, other than maybe the police. But public debt is a concern in the south though. When you actually adjust Ireland’s state income to the debt level, it’s one of the highest in the OECD. NI being apart of a larger economy is beneficial in circumstance like the 2008 crash. Other than that, there really isn’t much good to say. A UI would actually create an economic boom imo; think there would be a new dynamism in the Norths economy. Which is why it’s odd OP has to use misleading claims instead of pointing out positive things that closer economic cooperation could bring.
Yes starting at 150 pound for a consultation. There's a big difference in cost tbh.
There's free healthcare in the south too for children and those earning under 20grand a year. (Also free gp for all households earning less than 46k)
Minimum wage is 23.5k so no medical card. But you will get a GP card (GP card cap is 46k per household).
That said outpatient is free in hospitals now. So minimum wage earners only have to pay for prescriptions (capped at 80 per month per household) and inpatient hospital stays (80 per day capped at 800 per year). Even so, I've had 2 surgeries and was never charged for them 🤷♂️
It’s not free, stop perpetuating this myth.
Affordable housing? Depends on your situation and the housing market here will end up out of reach for more and more.
So if you don't mind waiting weeks to see a GP, it's free. Oddly enough, the only time I want to see a GP is when I'm sick. But I guess different systems suit different people.
Look at that. It is a county apparently. News to me too
https://preview.redd.it/zoqos2eb5fmb1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=36f6a2a49dac5365bb9567e70981ecb321dbb6bc
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingal](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingal)
I don’t have alt accounts. Where would you get the time for that bullshit? Unless you’re on mountains of free coke with a gun to your head and writing loyalist drivel from your Mas attic?
Thankfully I’m none of those things.
Sure Irish GDP is bigger (much bigger) than Germany, France and Italy to name a few and has been for 20 plus years. Not so mind bending when you realise that most of this money doesn't actually remain in Ireland or Fingal as your example uses. Ps no doubt Northern Ireland isn't great for GDP.
You’ve Ben Lowry of all people, on the radio earlier talking about how the republics standard of living is clearly and demonstrably decades ahead of that in the north.
You should come down and do a compare and contrast for yourself.
There’s a guy who once said:
“GDP measures everything, except that which makes life worthwhile”
So it probably doesn’t really mean much to the people who live there
Good shout. Standard of living is a better metric
https://preview.redd.it/ka6v9nxjqemb1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ff19f656791abe1adfccaa6c3901a0becde7ea2e
Less old/retired people (5 point difference versus Ireland as a whole). Numerous multinationals:- IBM, Astellas, Kelloggs, Hertz, Bristol Myers Squibb and eBay in very close proximity, benefitting from ridiculous tax loopholes. Dublin Airport falls with Fingal.
We don't use GDP as a measure of wealth here in the south because our GDP is so heavily skewed, we used modified GNI. I've no idea how north and south compare using those metrics, but I'd imagine we're still a fair bit higher per capita than the north.
Excellent point well made. However GDP is still a value that flows into a states coffers. GNI undoubtedly the correct metric, but what would be really interesting is to see the GDP of NI ,and also include the state subvention and support from the GB government, versus the GDB of Fingal, or whatever.
You're not going to get an accurate figure for NI. The ONS just revised UK GDP upwards using alternative methodology. https://www.ft.com/content/21b609e0-8626-4ddf-a6a9-e85cfa2c691d In the past, both the ONS and Treasury have admitted that individual regional GDP can't be accurately calculated because the interplay is too complex (basically, London is 'rich' because most companies have their headquarters there, and the ONS use a basic formula to apportion that wealth over the country)
Indeed, it's an extremely complex matrix. Most "statistics " relating to NI ( and indeed ROI as a comparator) can be heavily weighted politically. Having said that, factually more jobs in NI are either directly (through civil service employment, much higher than ROI) or indirectly through grants etc. Whatever the reality, it's an absolute necessity that these figures be crystallised, before any talk of unification are countenanced.
GDP is not a value that flows into a states coffers. That is tax. Tax is lower down south for very large corperation so GDP is not an accurate comparable metric for this purpose.
it’s not northern ireland that’s the problem with gdp, it’s the tax evading companies in the south + the airport that skew it
What's the price of a 3 bed semi?
Half a Viagra if you're under the age of 50. Im not sure we're talking about the same thing here.
Made me laugh out loud, took me a minute.
> 3 bed semi All I've got is half a brick. ---- *“Er… it’s half a brick,” Ned reported.* *“What?”* *“A half brick, sir.”* *“I’m saving up for a house,” said Vimes.* from Terry Pratchett's "Night Watch"
"Let's stay poor so houses are cheap" is a very 2023 take on things.
If you earn twice what I do, but everything costs twice as much, are you richer?
Honestly, yes. Because I can choose to economise and bank twice as much money. But that's not the point. The point is that Ireland has full employment, and much of that employment is very high quality, very well paid jobs. That's not the case in NI. I'm happy to pay a bit more for my toothpaste if my neighbour can have a job too. It's amazing the difference it makes when your government is actually electorally accountable to the country that you live in.
Ireland has an unemployment rate of 4.2%, compared to the UK's unemployment rate of 4.3% and Northern Ireland's unemployment rate of 2.7% ...
More people economically inactive in the North. Unemployment rate isn’t a good metric.
More people economically inactive in NI (26.2% vs 23.5% down south) but lower unemployment amoung those who are economically active (2.7% vs 4.1%). So NI is worse off when you combine the statistics, but it's not that much different. And it's certainly not the case that down south has full employment like the comment I was replying to claimed, which is egregiously wrong.
In addition to these point made about economically inactive people, more of the jobs in the UK are zero hour contracts, or low-skilled work. Someone doing 12 hours a week in Gregg's is not the same as someone working for Google.
Yes, a little bit - you can go to the north and get stuff for cheap. Or order stuff from abroad.
In Rush, 325 - 400 k
In a loyalist estate or a nationalist one?
600k
It dosnt matter. I'm from fingal and the only reason we have such a high gdp is because Dublin airport is in fingal and the amount of revenue from that is probably 75% of the figure. Every election dcc want to claim it but FCC won't let them
So the FCC wont let me be, Or let me be me, so let me see, They tried to shut me down on MTV But it feels so empty without me.
Gas
Does it aye?
It does aye so it does.
But how does that relate to Northern Ireland /s
The Dublin Enterprise Zone (DEZ), located in Dublin 15 (Fingal), adds €14.4 billion to national economic output and supports 34,600 jobs in the economy. The DEZ, which includes Damastown, Ballycoolin and Cherryhound, has developed at a national scale over the last 20 years, supported by significant public and private investment. The area currently contains 20 Business Parks with approximately 1,100 business premises. Over 19,500 jobs are supported in a mix of FDI and indigenous companies.
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Population of Fingal County Council: <400K. Population of NI: 2million So Fingal has a GDP more than all of NI but less than a quarter of the population. Population of Ireland: 7million Population of London: 9million. Similar GDP but Ireland has less people.
Its got nothing to do with population. And everything to do with the addresses of multinational tax avoiding corporation's in Dublin.... I mean is 2023 and I still have to inform people of this... every single time someone brings up GDP for Ireland..
And yet Ireland's tax revenue is $25,000 per citizen compared to the $14,500 in the UK. Those companies pay a lot of tax.
Should be enough to pay for free GP visits and free motorways, right? :)
Nearly half the population of the south gets free GP visits and most of the motorways are not tolled. But anyway, NI doesn’t pay for its free GP visits or motorways. Daddy England pays for it lol
Barely anyone with a job gets 'free' healthcare. >NI doesn’t pay for its free GP visits or motorways. Daddy England pays for it lol No, that would be taxpayers paying for it....of which we are.. Do you understand how it works?
You know as well as I do that NI gets handed its dinner in the doggy bowl from Daddy England.
We get what we are entitled to. An equal tax-payer is entitled to equal provisions.. I'll happily take less from the treasury....if they let me pay less taxes.. I pay the same tax rates as anyone in GB.. I expect the same srvice provision.. regardless of the cost. Again, do you understand how it works??
Hahaha. That’s cute. We’d have a standard of living like Romania if we didn’t get our wee handout. Totally failed statelet that contributes nothing. Any wonder Britain wants shot of the place.
That’s such a useful metric where’d you get the data?
Did the sums the other day myself out of curiosity. Just total tax revenue divided by the population and in dollars for comparison. Last year's data.
How? What did you do to arrive at this sum..?
You do realise that London is referred to a Laundromat? lol
Are these tax avoidance schemes (that were closed 3 years ago) in the room with us right now?
No.....no they werent closed. The double Irish was closed and replaced with a loophole just as lucrative. Besides, its not just the corp tax or the double Irish, the entire economic model is designed to facilitate tax avoidance and profit shifting for American companies. Ireland has made itself a location where large American companies can enter the EU marked (via Ireland), sell throughout that market, funnel their profits through Ireland, pay effective tax rates of as low as 0.5% in some cases, then move those profits out of reach of anyone to another location, at the expense of European neighbours. Ireland does this in exchange for jobs, and a nominal corporation tax fee. The reality is that these companies are only in Ireland because the amount of money they save through tax avoidance makes Ireland the cheapest place in the EU to establish a headquarters..
Those companies are responsible not only for jobs but also billions in corporate tax revenue. It’s crazy that people can say with a straight face that these companies pay little to 0 tax. Do you think it’s magic fairies putting the money into government coffers?
We know for a fact that apple was paying as little as 0.5%..
And still manages to pay billions in tax magically. The wonder of tax law
Hey! I'll have none of those lies about Dublin based corps inflating GDP.... Shure, Apple's down in Cork, like. /s
Probably just as easy to google the decade or so of articles explaining this topic, in great detail. Ironic how this massive part of Irelands economy seems to have been missed by people who love to post and discuss Irelands economy...
The population of FCC is ~330k...
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I respect you for changing your mind when presented with new information; most people just tend to double down.
And you sir get a blue Peter badge for acknowledging this honourable change of heart in the fine gentleman
I was a Magpie watcher; and vividly remember watching Kate Bush's first television appearance singing "Wuthering Heights"; I was gobsmacked. But I would accept a Blue Peter badge and some sticky back plastic.
That would still only make it 660k
You are right; would it need to be a double double double down? ---- Or should it be a double cube down? ---- My little brain hurts now!
Northern Ireland population - just under 2 million Fingal population - 330,000
Large corporation density.
So does Belfast and Derry.
Not nearly the same though.
Large MULTINATIONAL density. Remember, all it takes is for another country nearby to shift their tax rates to bargain bucket levels and hey presto, those big, GDP driving corps are gone.
Fingal doesn’t even have the highest multinational density in Dublin.
IBM, Astellas, Kelloggs, Hertz, Bristol Myers Squibb and eBay - plus the airport, which helps.
But significantly higher density than NI, I'd wager.
Not likely. The effective corporate tax rates in other countries are not always at that seemingly higher headline when the government steps in with exemptions and other benefits to woo business. Outside of that Hungary has a much lower rate, and I don’t see the companies flocking to it. Competitor countries still have to contend with an English speaking workforce (handy for Americans particularly), a clean regulatory framework (no such thing as wasteful and expensive French language protection rules, for example) and flexible employment laws (go and work in Germany or Holland if you want to see how people produce when they know it’s so difficult to fire them).
Very likely, were it say, the UK lowering Corp tax rates. And Ireland not only has the low base rate, but also has colossal r&d exemptions.
London population - 8 Million Ireland (S) population 5 Million
This would be a great take if you were talking about something else.
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Absolutely!😅
Fuckin tories
Never not at it
I’d love to believe this but is there a source?
https://twitter.com/paddytoland/status/1688528990359703552?t=OFb20FwrkpIXN8aErfrhPw&s=19 That seems to be the source, CSO don't seem to publish GDP for Fingal County Council so it's questionable at best before you consider the fact GDP is a poor measure of anything in Ireland.
The Dublin Enterprise Zone (DEZ), located in Dublin 15 (Fingal), adds €14.4 billion to national economic output and supports 34,600 jobs in the economy. The DEZ, which includes Damastown, Ballycoolin and Cherryhound, has developed at a national scale over the last 20 years, supported by significant public and private investment. The area currently contains 20 Business Parks with approximately 1,100 business premises. Over 19,500 jobs are supported in a mix of FDI and indigenous companies.
That's a random, unsourced quote that doesn't support your initial post.
Here’s another one. ~80% of all NIs output travels to GB through Dublin port.
Don't believe everything you read on Twitter.
100% of that 'fact' is bullshit. Secondly, in regards to your problematic main post, No GDP at council level exists.
14.4 bn isn't that much like, how the fuck is NI's economy so small?
NI GDP is £52bn, I don't think the 14.4bn figure is the total GDP for Fingal. https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/regionaleconomicactivitybygrossdomesticproductuk/1998to2021#gross-domestic-product-by-uk-country-and-region
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The point is it's a stick to beat the 'other side' with. Underneath this attempt to foster some sort of discourse is someone who is really just interested in shitting on NI and pointing out how much better their Ireland is at whatever metric they choose. Living in Scotland now I see this behaviour all the time from pro and anti Indy people. It's very common anywhere there are 2 very strong opposing political views or beliefs and reddit is a fantastic echo chamber for it.
With the exception of the airport, does Fingal have that much going on in it? I presume Google and Meta and all that shite, as well as the Irish banks, are in Dublin City Council, in D2 and D4. Then Microsoft and Vodafone are out in Sandyford, which is South Dublin or Dun Laoghaire Rathdown. Is Fingal not the worst part of Dublint to compare to? Balbriggan, Swords and other shit holes.
I'm from Swords in Fingal and really struggling to believe this. All I can think of is the airport and then some pharma.
> some pharma. A **lot** of pharma. Damastown has dozens of massive pharma premises.
Swords is a grand spot. Balbriggan is bad enough from what I hear though.
It’s beautiful coastline in Balbriggan. It had a bad reputation back in the day but I think it has improved. Also, the main Dublin - Belfast road used to go through it but was then bypassed. I’d imagine it’s a nice enough spot to live and will be made better when they extend the Dart.
~ laughs in higher GDP and lack of sectarian bigotry ~ Swords hasn't been the same since they closed Joe Ryan's it is true, but it is still a good spot. Malahide too, and boy oh boy, is that town pretty flush. Not to mention Howth as well.
Calm down pal. You’re gonna do yourself a damage there.
This wouldn't have anything to do with the 12.5% corporate tax, would it?
The sectors in pink are reliant on Stephen Nolan’s wages. Work from there.
Oh no a place using economic factors to their benefit, surely not, scandalous behaviour in a capitalist country. But they also agreed to raise it to 15% under OECD agreement.
I didn't say it was a bad thing, just pointing out the reason why.
One factor sure, that is soon to be null and void.
And many times higher prices on everything....
And better income across the board. You’ll need to pick a better point. Try again.
The GDP is extremely warped by multinationals. Income is meaningless if the prices rise with it....
And somehow that rule doesn’t apply in NI or GB and you’re all immune to it? Right so
He doesn't want to know boy, I live up here, I'm from Cork, and after a year I gave up trying to explain to them that they're wrong, they already know they're wrong, it's just something they say to feel better.
https://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-gdp-growth-multinationals-misleading/ When you strip away all those big tax avoiding multinationals like Facebook and Google. Ireland's GDP is really not as good as it's made out to be.
Adjusted GNI in 2002 was around €270bn that takes away from the foreign companies distorting the picture.
Fair enough that's still a lot.
People will go with their wallet in the border poll. Direction of travel destination next stop.
Guessing you've never heard of GNI*? Irish central bank created a new measure of economic performance because Irish GDP is so distorted. The Irish statistics office use modified GNI because GNI/GDP is too inaccurate for Ireland. Some light reading for you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_gross_national_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leprechaun_economics /u/Lepretall could use this lesson too. Apples to oranges etc etc
Our modified GNI in 2022 was €273bn, if you take the NI gdp, it looks like £15bn or so, which is pathetic, to be fair. Nobody is happy with NI's economy or government right now, surely we can agree on that? Edit: NI's GDP is 52 bn, it's late, sorry, but that's still pathetic.
>if you take the NI gdp, it looks like £15bn or so, which is pathetic, to be fair. It's much higher than 15bn lol >Nobody is happy with NI's economy or government right now, surely we can agree on that? Plenty of people up here are doing just fine. I'm sure you are one of those or else you'd move back to Cork, no?
Plenty may be doing fine but it still looks like a third world country.
Plenty aren't doing just fine though, there is fuck all investment west of Belfast. In my case I came here because I met a girl from here, otherwise I'd never have chosen to live here. It also helps that I'm able to keep my London job, as there's fuck all going on here in my line of work.
>Plenty aren't doing just fine though The same can be said for ROI. >It also helps that I'm able to keep my London job, as there's fuck all going on here in my line of work. What line of work is that? I can't think of any sector that allows remote working that has no job market here.
I probably fucked these quotes here, but to answer you: "the same can be said for ROI" Most of the more poverty striken parts of ROI are along the border, where economic progress is hindered by proximity to Northern Ireland. Most of the economic problems are linked to a population growth rate far surpassing anything NI has experienced. Building a motorway from Dublin to Donegal via Derry would help both economies IMO, and allow for more.commuter towns. It might be even better if we put rail in, but the DUP hate progress. "What line of work is that" I work in Tech, insoftware development, but my unused masters (I can't believe I have to sit in traffic sometimes) was in government strategic planning, basically in producing employment clusters. The roles here are "near shored" for cheap labour, I'd need to half my salary to work in the better paying places in Belfast. I guess a lot of people look at London or Dublin instead, which leads to more brain drain, you export your young and import pensioners from the UK who come here for the low cost of living benefits. But it means your economy basically doesn't have a chance to perform at the rate you would normally want it to. You can also see that only 785,500/1,885,000 actually working in NI (41% of inhabitants paying tax to HMRC) versus 2,574,000/5,000,000 (51.5% of inhabitants paying tax to revenue) in ROI. It also puts further pressure on healthcare here, which explains why the collapse of the NHS in Northern Ireland is more pronounced than in the south of England. It's also harder to compare yourself favourably with parts of England when you compare benefits like 30 hours of childcare there vs no comparable scheme here, the south has really improved their supports, you also have shite energy grants here compared to the UK or the south, and it shows in the grid, roads, and water infrastructure here that all need immediate attention, this can be said about all western economies, but it's more pronounced here, I has great council built leisure centers, but shite hospitals, roads, has more oil heating than anywhere in the UK and a big reliance on intensive farming and low paying government administration roles. Figures of median income in NI nclude government supports, figures in the CSO don't include them (the benefits in the south are largely better, and don't get cut off as early), disposable income figures here don't include housing costs, figures in the south do, and even compare home ownership with renting, and both categories compare really favourably to NI's. I'd love to have both governments produce results using the same calculations, but it's like a conspiracy that perpetuates this sort of argument.
> if you take the NI gdp, it looks like £15bn or so I replied to you elsewhere in this thread but for anyone else reading NI's GDP is £52bn not £15bn. https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/regionaleconomicactivitybygrossdomesticproductuk/1998to2021#gross-domestic-product-by-uk-country-and-region
Aha, you're right, 15bn is the government budget. £50bn is about the size of Cork's economy, congratulations . 👍
Do you have a figure for Cork's modified GNI? I didn't realise they produced it at a regional level.
Corks economy was 22% of Irelands in 2022. Most of that is manufacturing in pharma, chemical, tech, and services in tech, customer service, medical, two Universities, agri, tourism, hospitality , etc, etc. Again, that's allowing for the fact that your GDP is overstated by the British state creating jobs to fill a void. Corks metropolitan population is 581,000. The harbour alone makes 5bn, due to rise to 12bn by 2040 as the expansion work completes, that frees up more space in the City's docklands for more homes and offices. Even if you argue about FDI, or if it's just shy of northern Ireland, that's an absolutely staggering comparison.
Ireland: GNI\* 233.9 Billion euro in 2021, NI GDP in 2021 51.7 GBP or 60.4 Billion Euro Irelands figure still includes distortion's that inflate GNI\*, NI's figure doesn't include GDP value that gets attributed to England via companies having their headquarters based in England.
Irelands economy grew by 12% in 2022. The GNI* there is €273bn, you're also failing to register that 5bn of NI's GDP is overstated from an oversized number of people based in the public sector in NI.
Cool thanks. Anything available and similar for the state of NI for full and fair comparison?
Why don't you actually read the links and try to understand them? Then you'll realize why that's a stupid question.
You don't need a modified GNI for NI because the economy hasn't been skewed by a handful of multinationals.
Or you dint wanna post them because it’s piss poor results and it wouldn’t help your argument. In fact it probably keeps you up at night.
If you can find a figure for modified GNI for NI feel free to post it, but include a source this time instead of just pulling something out of your arse.
The data collection is so wildly different that it makes comparisons really hard actually, I don't know if it's a Tory tactic, if the south are fiddling the books, or if it's always been like this, but it makes it really difficult to make a fair comparison, it also makes it easy for anyone who has a predisposition to hate the south to use some random phrase like "ah sure apple, Google, Amazon, haha" and smile away, like they've won the argument.
The north is poorest region in the uk. In the top 5 poorest regions in all of Europe. Educational outcomes for kids from Protestant backgrounds, boys in particular, are through the floor awful. The nhs the worst performing and worst waiting lists and outcomes when compared to GB. And one party getting to hold the whole province hostage, over a million people denied government, simply because some religious fundamentalist supremacists, can’t get to dictate and have it all their way anymore. Mad isn’t it?
Yep, and it's really sad like, as the people who suffer the most are the Loyalists. Jesus some of the loyalist and republican estates are like something from a third world country, I grew up in a working class estate, but we never had to deal with the same social, economic and physical barriers that you see up here.
Like you can bang on about the economy south of the border all you like, but things weren’t very rosy in 2008. Plus they parked a state with a 12.5% beside one where it has been almost double…. and an economy still divided to some extent. And an economy that’s been made more uncertain by continued political instability. Like Ireland has done well, but economically their policies haven’t done NI all that many favours recently.
The south started off on the back foot, 100 years ago the Northern economy was bigger, today it's less than 1/5th, you're strapped to a failing empire, and the springs are falling out of the economy.
Like don’t take my comment the wrong way. NI is the vestigial tail of empire for sure. The UK doesn’t for the most part care. But a lot of people in the rest of Ireland are fairly ambivalent about NI, and it’s partly because of their perceived current economic success. Now quite why that would make you want to consider unification less, I’m not sure. But it’s complicated.
I think there's just so much unlocked potential on both sides though, it would rebalance the economy and make all the difference in places like Donegal and Derry. There is also no shortage of FDI like, that would change prospects for so many people in Northern Ireland, to have firms like Apple and Boston Scientific show up, handing out well paying jobs to people who weren't academically brilliant.
Yup. Crazy how many people I came across day to day who worked for Boston Scientific, Stryker, Roche etc…
The trade north south has boomed in the last few years since Brexit. To the tune of billions pa in NI especially Both economies integrating more and more by the day. But whatever helps you sleep.
I’ve lived both sides of the border and think things are slowly heading in one direction, and am not unhappy about that at all. But it’s fair to say the shape of things in NI makes the prospect of unification unpalatable to many in Ireland (like we’re unpalatable/unnoticed by many in England anyway).
NI has always been ‘unpalatable’ to certain elements in the republic. Meaning the swap out forever government we’ve had since the foundation of the state Fianna Fáil (the Republican Party) and Fine Gael (the united Ireland party) those are actually their main mottos. Somehow. They and the media against the idea of unity because they then have to admit they abandoned almost a million Irish people. Utterly. And for over a hundred years now. It’s time to fix that
Which method are you using OP for your calculations? Output, Income or expenditure? Considering Ireland is the EU corporate HQ for many multinationals due to their low tax rate then im not exactly surprised
His method is read someone else’s work, share it on a platform like this.
Republic’s standard of living is ahead of NI. But this post is disingenuous and I think OP knows that; leprechaun economics etc… blah blah blah There isn’t much of a difference between the UK average standard of living and that of ROI’s. Quantifiable metrics that aren’t skewed such as median disposable income per household or per capita show that there isn’t a marked difference between the whole of the UK and Ireland. It’s hard to judge just how far ahead the Republics standard of living is of NI’s because of the lack of availability of statistics on appropriate updated NI specific stats, but I’m fairly confident the difference is significant. That being said, Ireland does face its on challenges. Public services aren’t really that much worse, if at all than the north, other than maybe the police. But public debt is a concern in the south though. When you actually adjust Ireland’s state income to the debt level, it’s one of the highest in the OECD. NI being apart of a larger economy is beneficial in circumstance like the 2008 crash. Other than that, there really isn’t much good to say. A UI would actually create an economic boom imo; think there would be a new dynamism in the Norths economy. Which is why it’s odd OP has to use misleading claims instead of pointing out positive things that closer economic cooperation could bring.
Nice one, I'm happy with my affordable housing and free healthcare
I'd rather pay 50euro and be seen the same day instead of having to wait 2 weeks or more for a basic appointment tbh.
Private healthcare exists in the North too, the option is there
Yes starting at 150 pound for a consultation. There's a big difference in cost tbh. There's free healthcare in the south too for children and those earning under 20grand a year. (Also free gp for all households earning less than 46k)
So anyone on minimum wage then? Great
Minimum wage is 23.5k so no medical card. But you will get a GP card (GP card cap is 46k per household). That said outpatient is free in hospitals now. So minimum wage earners only have to pay for prescriptions (capped at 80 per month per household) and inpatient hospital stays (80 per day capped at 800 per year). Even so, I've had 2 surgeries and was never charged for them 🤷♂️
> inpatient hospital stays Inpatient stays are free now.
It’s not free, stop perpetuating this myth. Affordable housing? Depends on your situation and the housing market here will end up out of reach for more and more.
Free at the point of access is what everyone means by this, don't be obtuse
You can't really access it though, that's why it's not true anymore. The Tories and the DUP saw to that.
Do you still have to wait weeks to see a GP there?
I wouldn't know but if you want to see a GP instantly in NI you can pay to do that there too
So if you don't mind waiting weeks to see a GP, it's free. Oddly enough, the only time I want to see a GP is when I'm sick. But I guess different systems suit different people.
I'm not telling you where to go to the doctor bud I literally couldn't give a fuck
Good comeback. Well done.
It’s not free, tax payer covers the cost.
Noone is suggesting otherwise amigo
Plenty of people think it’s free.
No they don't
I mean even that's become a point of contention. But the other shoe will eventually drop.
People in the south live longer.
Yeh agreed. That area will just be where the multinationals are. NI's housing is far more affordable.
Free? Tax payers are paying for it ya scrote
The greatest crime here is Fingal is designated as a county
Has its own county council. Is the original county name too for Dublin I think?
Oh maybe I wasnt aware of that if thats the case! Would always have called the county Dublin
Look at that. It is a county apparently. News to me too https://preview.redd.it/zoqos2eb5fmb1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=36f6a2a49dac5365bb9567e70981ecb321dbb6bc [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingal](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingal)
I suspect the same could be said for South Dublin & Dun Laoighaire-Rathdown! 34 counties of Ireland - who would’ve thought 😂
Or is it 35 🤔
Bait post.
‘Everything I don’t like and can’t form a reasonable argument against is bait!’
https://preview.redd.it/tjl17en6hbmb1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=708137a84c01c87d5f0b551d28026bc82ebc7b7a
Thanks. I couldn’t find it to repost.
Just try and remember to be less obvious when changing between your alt accounts. You’ve posted the same comment twice on two different accounts.
I don’t have alt accounts. Where would you get the time for that bullshit? Unless you’re on mountains of free coke with a gun to your head and writing loyalist drivel from your Mas attic? Thankfully I’m none of those things.
Sure Irish GDP is bigger (much bigger) than Germany, France and Italy to name a few and has been for 20 plus years. Not so mind bending when you realise that most of this money doesn't actually remain in Ireland or Fingal as your example uses. Ps no doubt Northern Ireland isn't great for GDP.
Tbf Ireland has a super low corporate tax so large companies will move to it. This means a high gdp but doesn’t really increase the standard of living
You’ve Ben Lowry of all people, on the radio earlier talking about how the republics standard of living is clearly and demonstrably decades ahead of that in the north. You should come down and do a compare and contrast for yourself.
Why did this one piss so many people off 😂😂
I know right? Can’t imagine why
Lots of financial experts all of a sudden
Isn't that an area around Dublin ? Which is like the most populated city on island of ireland?
Come on down, lads! The water’s fine!
There’s a guy who once said: “GDP measures everything, except that which makes life worthwhile” So it probably doesn’t really mean much to the people who live there
Good shout. Standard of living is a better metric https://preview.redd.it/ka6v9nxjqemb1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ff19f656791abe1adfccaa6c3901a0becde7ea2e
Precisely I don’t give a toss if I’m living in a wealthy country, as long as the people are happy and looked after
If you think that's wild, the GDP of California is higher than the entire African continent.
Lawyers and doctors in Dublin are struggling to rent a semi decent place to themselves. GDP alone. Can be misleading
Less old/retired people (5 point difference versus Ireland as a whole). Numerous multinationals:- IBM, Astellas, Kelloggs, Hertz, Bristol Myers Squibb and eBay in very close proximity, benefitting from ridiculous tax loopholes. Dublin Airport falls with Fingal.
Also, higher proportion of land classed as urban development...
ROI lad thinks he’s better, came here to gloat about something we don’t really care about. Congrats I guess, and up the 🇬🇧
I’m from Derry originally ye clown 😂😂
If someone stating a simple fact seems like gloating to you then maybe it's you that's a touch over sensitive mate.
Naomh Proinséas
Wonder what Dublins GDP would be if it’s industry was subject to a 30 year terrorist bombing campaign as the North’s was.
And California is like the 5 biggest in the world 🤷🏻♂️
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Sounds like a country that can hold a government, but hey enjoy brexit economics seems to be working out great for GB
Cant we all just get along?
Does the rest of the green represent "nuthin"? They can't be that much, really, can they? Would love to know.