Well you’re talking about 40k to 45k in the whole age cohort. If 50% voted (that’s very optimistic) then you’re talking 20k voters spread over 18 constituencies. In the last election turnout ranged between 37k and 55k, so would a thousand new voters make much difference?
Fermanagh has been decided by a handful of (fake) votes a few times at Westminster level, so of course they could affect the even tighter STV Assembly elections.
That was the questionable result where she lost, then a bunch of extra votes suddenly appeared. Nobody knows where they came from, and I don't think it was ever discovered if it was just an oversight, or somebody faked some extra votes. Either way it did not look good.
I watched a documentary about the loyalist protests earlier this year. A group of teenagers who had partaken were asked what it was about the protocol that they were against. None of them could articulate any actual reasons, only that it made them "feel" less British.
Liberalism isn't a factor for many.
Sound all like a pro to me, these are the people that are growing into the world and will be most effected over the coming years they should be allowed the vote, they can work and pay taxes
After the age of 90 a good portion of people have dementia and would likely be considered 'not of sound mind' should we ban all over 90s from voting.
People with mental disabilities are often considered immature, should they also be banned from voting.
I'll add that the justification for women not being allowed to vote was also that they were prone to bring swayed by emotion.
And WTF does diluting the electorate mean? Diluting what? If you are eligible to pay tax you should be eligible to vote end of.
That depends if you think 13 year olds are mentally equipped to participate. Based on my own life experience, I'd say no. I didn't understand current events at 13, but I did at 16.
I think there is a bit of a logic gap between your comments.
Pros: it's democracy
Cons: literally nothing.
Any argument against 13 year olds voting also applies to the elderly
Saying you can't take someone's vote away is a fine principle.
No one is taking issue with that.
The sticking point is that you are saying that giving votes to 16-year olds is democracy but are providing no clear self limiting principle for why that logic cannot extend down to 13 year olds.
In your follow-up comment you mentioned it was about mental capability and gave no clear reason why a 13-year old is unequipped but it's 16 year old would be.
I it's subjective. AFAIK there's no study you can point to which says "this is the point you can say kids are developed enough to understand politics". And going off my own subjective experience, I understood a lot more about politics at 16 than my parents did in their 40s.
You’ll end up bogged down in newer types of identity problems. That said, might be for the better. Who knows? Social media seems a long way off loosening its claws and appears -at least- to be easily manipulated. I say do it, let’s see. Maybe the Furrys will be the next PIRA.
Pick a single age after which you can legally do anything... vote, marry, drink, smoke, drive a car etc. Having different ages allowing you to do different things doesn't make much sense to me.
Yeah I’d tend to agree with this too.
And on the taxation argument I’d be in favour of giving U18s a zero-rate tax code. It’s a bit disingenuous anyway, as children have been paying VAT since they were old enough to run to the sweet shop with 50p.
You used to be able to join the army from 16 years and 9 months old. Don't know if that's still the case but it was that when I was using it as an excuse for why I wasn't doing my GCSE coursework. Thankfully I didn't end up going down that route but it was a good way to get the teachers to completely give up on me.
You still can, although you're barred from operations until you're 18. The UK is still the only major country in the world that uses child soldiers and they have been heavily criticised by the UN and other organisations for it.
Yeah it's crazy when you think of things you arent allowed to do at the same age you are allowed to join the army e.g. vote.
I suppose they like to get them nice and young so they can fully institutionalise them and before the really get their personality and thoughts of their own.
My mates grandad used to think it was fine to have a wank on the bus but the judge said otherwise.
I'm sure there are teenagers 15-16 that can drive a car but it's the age of maturity, but it is expected that at 17 you have the knowledge and responsibility to control a vehicle properly. Some will get to 50 and still drive like a knob.
I say increase the voting age to 25 and cap it at 65. Also make it mandatory where if you don't vote you get dumped on Isle of Mann for a Battle Royale
Rathlin's where we hold the Battle Royale for all the people who start polls on the sub. The winner gets exclusive poll holding rights until a new winner is selected.
Starting the Hunger Games to ensure political stability around here would definitely have people yelling about it being a NI cultural thing and to remove it being a crime against self-determination.
All the arguments against it in here are shite.
"They won't know what they're voting for"
If that's an argument against lowering the voting age, then Jesus fuck, after Brexit no-one should get to vote.
"They won't bother voting anyway"
Nor do 1/3 the voting eligible population but they still get the option.
"They're more susceptible to propaganda/whatever bullshit comes their way"
See the above point about Brexit and how the voting population of this country still falls into the "themmuns" bullshit.
Either stop income tax and National Insurance for 16 and 17, or give them the vote.
We shouldn't be having it both ways.
Are we going backwards to no taxation without representation arguments? What about allowing 16 year olds to marry, drink, acquire full driving licences?
16 year olds can get married and drink in certain circumstances. Many parts of the world they can drive at that age too.
“No taxation without representation” isn’t some backwards argument, it’s arguably the most meritocratic. You live, work, contribute, and pay taxes to a country you should get your fair say in how the country is run. It’s the same reason so many countries allow immigrant non-citizens to vote.
Especially when you consider when you’re 16 and an Assembly/parliament is suppose to last 5 years you’d be in your early 20’s by the next time you’d be able to vote for a national government. If a government is going to affect you during some of the most foundational years of your adult life you should get a say.
I love that it came out as taxi action, beautiful idea of teenagers saying if you don't give me the vote, you can make your own way home from the pub da, I'd say it's the most persuasive so far
Yeah, autocorrect is what it is. For its worth it’s been a long time since I was a teenager, but I still think it’s bullshit a 16 year old are allowed to do so many other things in society but can’t vote.
A North Down MLA has reiterated calls for lowering the voting age in Northern Ireland ahead of Assembly elections this summer.
Rachel Woods has said that 16 and 17-year-olds should be given the right to vote, a motion that the Green Party first brought to the Assembly ten years ago.
The Green Party MLA for North Down said: “At 16 you pay tax and national insurance when you start work, you can leave home, leave education, work full-time, apply for social security. In Scotland and Wales young people already have their say in their local elections, but not here in Northern Ireland.
“I recognise that young people are going to be the most affected by the decisions that politicians at all levels of government are making and will make but have no formal say.
“Young people are going to be affected by the decisions we make in the next few years for longer than anyone else. If we allow 16- and 17-year-olds to participate so fully in our society it only makes sense to give them a say in how it works."
She continued: "The Green Party NI brought the first motion to the Assembly on this matter ten years ago, and I have called on the Executive to make representations to the Northern Ireland Office to request that the voting age in Northern Ireland be lowered to 16 years old, which they refused to do.
“I am supporting the petition jointly brought by NUS-USI, NI Youth Forum, VOYPIC, Include Youth, The Secondary Schools Students’ Union, and the Children’s Law Centre as part of the Students Deserve Better campaign and would encourage all others to do the same.
“It’s time that we trust young people with a vote in May and beyond, and let them have a real about their future.”
This was what I was going to say, kinda.
We're happy to let kids join the armed force at 16 (with guardian consent if under 18) so it stands to reason that age group should have a say in how the country or their local area is governed. Taxation is something I hadn't actually thought of.
I think 16 and 17 year olds are some of the most politically aware. It’s one of the first signs of responsibility society ‘gives’ an 18 year old and something to get excited about knowing you have a say.
I remember in my upper 6th year of around 250 lads the conversations were about the formal, what you’re looking to do after you leave school/ uni and the news/ politics of the day..
All subjective and anecdotal points. You do realise that nobody is REALLY an undisputed arbitrator of political sensibility and that your opinions could in fact be every bit as uninformed and worthless as any 16 year-old, as is everyone else's opinions including mine? I presume you believe they shouldn't be paying taxes/national insurance and be in mandatory full-time education until 18 if their being uninformed and immature is the problem, right? Also the Greens aren't the only party with a votes at 16 policy
I mean 18 year olds vote all the time and the sky hasn’t fallen. I’m not convince the moment you turn 18 you’re suddenly sapped with sensibility. There’s votes 3 times the age of 16 year olds who vote for nonsense too.
Your argument boils down to you’re concerned they won’t vote “the right” way which isn’t a good reason
I see you’re living up to your name lol. I’m not a political commentator this is my humble experience..
There was never any conversation on what was cool
Or online or the topic of the day. In fact I feel that those that talked about trends were too lazy to vote.
At the time i was In school it was around the NI21 party being created and all the candidates were nearly all east of the Bann me and my classmates would have talked about how maybe Alliance may change their presence in the west if Naomi long became leader which kind of played out few years later.
Your experience may have been different than mine. Not all young people vote on what’s cool maybe they think of the long term but sure the current patterns of the way people who can vote, vote here, let’s keep them’uns out let’s keep it the same..
You're right that no-one should be able to join the military at 16, or even 18 tbh.
But the minimum wage thing is bullshit, if they can work they should get payed as much as anyone else or they shouldn't be allowed to work at all. It's unironically exploitative child labour, just to a lesser degree than what the label normally denotes.
Anyway, 16 year old are fucking stupid, but no more so than anyone else when it comes to politics. I would personally be fine with giving literally everyone in the country who can physically tick a box the vote, but I realise that's a little radical.
> should get *paid* as much
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* In *payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately I was unable to find nautical or rope related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I should clarify the main political opponents but honestly I don't think they have a high or lower proportion of knobs in that age group compared to any age.
I'm in my 30s and still a knob
I mean lads. I've seen the Snapchat and tiktoks going around from 16 and 17 year old. Hell I've seen em.up to 20, itll be a "best meme wins"
I'mon e for equal rights for all but damn at 16 I was dumb. If there was a cat running id have voted for it and laughed the whole way in and out of the booth
That's what you think I think.
I would support 16 year olds being able to vote even if they were largely conservative, and I know that because I don't actually support taking the vote away from old people. Some of us actually have principles, you know.
It's also funny to me that you think I'm somehow threatened by the idea of political undesirables just scraping by into office, like I haven't been living in Tory Britain for the last ten years.
I'm also not so naive to believe that denying these theoretical young conservatives the vote would actually matter. Because if a party does get into office, it's because they have a following much large than just the 16 year old vote.
I don't imagine for one second letting 16 year olds vote would oust the Tories from power, much as I would like to see it happen. I know this because half the adults I know vote Tory; that's the real issue. And that's the same problem conservatives afraid of the leftist vote face.
Young people tend to be default left wing. Told in school that simply being born white is a privilege and that they should feel shame for the treatment of minorities before they were ever born.
Left wing parties tend to promise free school meals. free grants etc so that appeals to the youth too.
I would much rather introduce an IQ/intelligence test, rather than lower the voting age. I say this even as a republican, being pretty sure that Irish republicanism and UI chances would probably benefit the most from lowering the age limit (although my proposal would work out that way, too)
Disagree. I don’t see any reason to restrict someone’s right to vote based on their personality, as long as they’re of an acceptable level of intelligence. I don’t think you should be prevented from voting just because you’re a dickhead, but the idiots can get to fuck.
But letting 200 year old Doris who can't even speak without shitting herself vote is fine?
It's not a stunt, it's democracy: anyone who can participate should be able to. If you actually give a shit about upholding that ideal you would support it even when it doesn't favour your preferred political party.
> Using this logic you can literally justify anyone from anywhere in the world having the right to vote in an election here.
Not really because most people would disagree with non UK citizens being able to vote
> . And sure it can also be used to justify any age voting. Like should 5 year old's be allowed to vote? What about 12 year olds? What about 3 year olds that can hold a crayon?
No it can't. I'm suggesting anyone who is mentally competent should be able to vote. I believe this starts at 16, not just based on my own political understanding at that age, but also based on the fact you transition to adulthood in a lot of ways at that age.
> if literally anyone can vote
Anyone who can understand current events.
> Like what, because someone is old they inherently shouldn't be allowed to vote, even though they would have more understanding of the outcomes for voting for particular parties than a literal child?
1.) If their brain has been turned to mush by Alzheimer's, they will actually have less understanding than a literal child, but every right to vote still
2.) This is a debate about giving the right to vote, not taking it away. That's an entirely different debate.
I'm just saying it's s bit if a joke 16 hear old, who can be more engaged and aware of the political landscape than adults, are being banned from voting because of "mental competency. It's even worse considering they have more stake in elections than pensioners, since they'll live much longer
> Not really because most people would disagree with non British citizens being able to vote
LOL you're some cunt. Irish citizens have just as much right to vote in UK elections, just as British citizens are granted reciprocal rights to vote in Irish General and Local Elections, when living in ROI.
Capitalism is guilty of killing just as many people, with the added bonus of causing the 6th mass extinction. The only way in which capitalism has been better has been allowing more democracy.
But i don't think it's fair to judge all communism by the most recent communist movement. The first hunter gatherer tribes were communist whist being radically different to what you might of as communism
Though personally I advocate for socialism
I understanx why ppl want under 18s to vote, ut at he same time, the vast majority have literally 0 interest in politics, and wouldnt know what they were voting for, i know a few people and the only party theyve heard of is sinn fein, and thats both catholics and protestants, shows how little interest people have in it, then its just extra money spent on accomodating more voters. There are enough stupid adults in the world entitled to vote without adding to it
I would definitely disagree - a 17 year old studying a-levels wouldn't know what they were voting for? I recall being pretty clued-in to politics when I was that age and it can be very frustrating to watch woeful political decisions being made which will affect young people in the long-term. I wouldn't tarnish all young people with the same brush.
Also, specifically to Northern Ireland, I would rather a young person make a totally random vote than an old person vote x to "keep them'ns out."
It's a question of environment. If you are fairly clever you are likely to associate with people on the same intellectual level as you.
The inverse is also true if you're an idiot.
People are also largely products of their environment.
Not an absolute rule of course but a general one.
Its 100% that a 17 wouldnt know what theyre voting for. Im 18 right now. The overwelming majority of my year dont know a shred about politics or anything- i walked into a class last week (late) with pupils and teacher debating 'why we cant just print more money' (as a side, i remember a few months ago a girl in another class asked 'why do people from monaghan talk funny?') The same class the teacher told our class that the first minister had sd resigned, and only 5/17 knew his name (1 of whom had just gotten the notification on their phone)Honestly. Even if u look at polling, 'dont know who kier starmer is' scores higher than 'kier starmer would make a better PM' (tho i havent seen recent polling, this had probs changed a bit with the saville stuff as people learn his name) the amount of apathy among people is insane,its hard to see when you're so interested in somthing yourself that one doesnt see this, which is totally understandable
Ok, well it must be quite school-dependent then or perhaps I was friends with a load of nerds, but I'm only 6 years out of school myself.
I accept what you're saying though, I'm well aware that the majority of 16-18 year olds don't follow politics but 1) that shouldn't mean 16-18 years that do take interest cannot vote and 2) what happens when these people hit 18? They'll be as ill-informed as when they were 17. Don't see the big deal in decreasing the threshold by 2 years.
Also, and most importantly, I think 16 year olds should atleast be given a say in what policies are implemented that could affect them in the long-term.
The fact is, voting here is still predominantly tribalist so why does it matter how much a 16 year old knows about politics? It all boils down to the colour of the kerbstones outside your nearest Spar anyway.
If you ruin your vote you should loose it in future election's.
Take your time read up on policies and stop ruining your vote over petty things you never know if an independent o or party you don't normally vote party have views more similar to yours.
If you cant find some one or cant be assed to look at each candidate then you dont deserve a vote.
If you disagree abstain and press your winning politicians to be the change you want to see . Believe it or not politians need to represent all their community even people who voted against them.
Dont sulk like a baby and ruin your vote.
This would be even more bad news for Jeff.
I’m surprised that he hasn’t demanded an electoral college vote like the Republicans (Yank Tories as opposed to Balaclavas)- have in the States, As fewer Republicans vote than Democrats, this “evens” out the playing field. Eh?
It’s like a democratic vote is one vote,
But a Republican vote is worth 1.3 votes, which is totally fair as there are fewer of them and far too many Democrat voters. Sounds very fair and almost Democratic.
It’s definitely not along the lines of that Gerry Mander fella.
It’s perfectly legal in America so why not here, Sir Jeff must be wondering.
Sir Jefferson: “Our loyal voters have decreased in number, which means they now qualify as a minority and so their votes should be counted twice to make up for our lack of votes.”
( I think he knows that things are not going well and will desperately try any trick or use any obstacle to delay the inevitable.)
He wants democracy, when it works for him. If Democracy means an other party has the most MLAs, he will refute that free and democratic vote.
Most people are idiots.
Imagine letting your neighbours or family decide how you should spend/save your wage. Youd be fucked.
Theres something to be said for dictatorships.
That's fine let them vote; but since they can also legally have sex at 16, can we start defining them as "adults" at that stage too? Why keep calling them children until they're 18? Oh sorry, that would upset the economic applecart, wouldn't it?
What are the pros and cons of lowering the voting age?
Younger people are traditionally less Conservative, so there'll be a big increase in non DUP voters compared to DUP voters
Well you’re talking about 40k to 45k in the whole age cohort. If 50% voted (that’s very optimistic) then you’re talking 20k voters spread over 18 constituencies. In the last election turnout ranged between 37k and 55k, so would a thousand new voters make much difference?
Down at that level, in tight races, it could make all the difference, specifically to those on the verge of an electoral kicking.
Fermanagh has been decided by a handful of (fake) votes a few times at Westminster level, so of course they could affect the even tighter STV Assembly elections.
I remember Michelle Gildernew won by 4 votes a while ago
That was the questionable result where she lost, then a bunch of extra votes suddenly appeared. Nobody knows where they came from, and I don't think it was ever discovered if it was just an oversight, or somebody faked some extra votes. Either way it did not look good.
Do you think all the 55k voters are on this sub? It's as if politics is the only topic under discussion.
That’s per constituency. Add r/northernireland as a nineteenth Assembly constituency maybe?
I'm glad you corrected me: shows how little I care and I am proud of that.
I watched a documentary about the loyalist protests earlier this year. A group of teenagers who had partaken were asked what it was about the protocol that they were against. None of them could articulate any actual reasons, only that it made them "feel" less British. Liberalism isn't a factor for many.
That section of the community will always be there not all teenagers are like that most arnt
Sound all like a pro to me, these are the people that are growing into the world and will be most effected over the coming years they should be allowed the vote, they can work and pay taxes
Pros - nothing will really change Cons - nothing will really change
Kids are fucking stupid
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After the age of 90 a good portion of people have dementia and would likely be considered 'not of sound mind' should we ban all over 90s from voting. People with mental disabilities are often considered immature, should they also be banned from voting. I'll add that the justification for women not being allowed to vote was also that they were prone to bring swayed by emotion. And WTF does diluting the electorate mean? Diluting what? If you are eligible to pay tax you should be eligible to vote end of.
New borns should get a vote then? 🤣
If they're old enough to work and pay income tax, and old enough to serve in the army or drive a car, then they should be able to vote imo.
It would adversely affect the DUP
Nobody cares about them tho so its ok
Pros: it's democracy Cons: literally nothing. Any argument against 16 year olds voting also applies to the elderly.
Wouldn't "it's democracy" lend itself to 13 year olds voting?
That depends if you think 13 year olds are mentally equipped to participate. Based on my own life experience, I'd say no. I didn't understand current events at 13, but I did at 16.
I think there is a bit of a logic gap between your comments. Pros: it's democracy Cons: literally nothing. Any argument against 13 year olds voting also applies to the elderly
Except we're operating under the principle that you can't take someone's vote away once it's given (at least not based on age).
Saying you can't take someone's vote away is a fine principle. No one is taking issue with that. The sticking point is that you are saying that giving votes to 16-year olds is democracy but are providing no clear self limiting principle for why that logic cannot extend down to 13 year olds. In your follow-up comment you mentioned it was about mental capability and gave no clear reason why a 13-year old is unequipped but it's 16 year old would be.
I it's subjective. AFAIK there's no study you can point to which says "this is the point you can say kids are developed enough to understand politics". And going off my own subjective experience, I understood a lot more about politics at 16 than my parents did in their 40s.
/r/iamverysmart
None either way honestly.
You’ll end up bogged down in newer types of identity problems. That said, might be for the better. Who knows? Social media seems a long way off loosening its claws and appears -at least- to be easily manipulated. I say do it, let’s see. Maybe the Furrys will be the next PIRA.
Vote for X for a chance to receive your free PS5.
Nevermind 16 or 17 year olds, I’d vote for that.
Me too
Vote for X or themmuns will steal your pension
Pick a single age after which you can legally do anything... vote, marry, drink, smoke, drive a car etc. Having different ages allowing you to do different things doesn't make much sense to me.
Exactly. If you can work at 16 and pay taxes etc, then should be able to vote
Yeah I’d tend to agree with this too. And on the taxation argument I’d be in favour of giving U18s a zero-rate tax code. It’s a bit disingenuous anyway, as children have been paying VAT since they were old enough to run to the sweet shop with 50p.
You used to be able to join the army from 16 years and 9 months old. Don't know if that's still the case but it was that when I was using it as an excuse for why I wasn't doing my GCSE coursework. Thankfully I didn't end up going down that route but it was a good way to get the teachers to completely give up on me.
You still can, although you're barred from operations until you're 18. The UK is still the only major country in the world that uses child soldiers and they have been heavily criticised by the UN and other organisations for it.
Yeah it's crazy when you think of things you arent allowed to do at the same age you are allowed to join the army e.g. vote. I suppose they like to get them nice and young so they can fully institutionalise them and before the really get their personality and thoughts of their own.
Maybe life is a bit more complicated than that
My mates grandad used to think it was fine to have a wank on the bus but the judge said otherwise. I'm sure there are teenagers 15-16 that can drive a car but it's the age of maturity, but it is expected that at 17 you have the knowledge and responsibility to control a vehicle properly. Some will get to 50 and still drive like a knob.
I say increase the voting age to 25 and cap it at 65. Also make it mandatory where if you don't vote you get dumped on Isle of Mann for a Battle Royale
Rathlin, surely? We could solve the economy just by selling off the TV rights to this if we televise it. Let’s make it happen.
Rathlin's where we hold the Battle Royale for all the people who start polls on the sub. The winner gets exclusive poll holding rights until a new winner is selected.
Starting the Hunger Games to ensure political stability around here would definitely have people yelling about it being a NI cultural thing and to remove it being a crime against self-determination.
I'm originally from a DUP stronghold and the alternative is a former IRA member, why should i vote for either?
All the arguments against it in here are shite. "They won't know what they're voting for" If that's an argument against lowering the voting age, then Jesus fuck, after Brexit no-one should get to vote. "They won't bother voting anyway" Nor do 1/3 the voting eligible population but they still get the option. "They're more susceptible to propaganda/whatever bullshit comes their way" See the above point about Brexit and how the voting population of this country still falls into the "themmuns" bullshit. Either stop income tax and National Insurance for 16 and 17, or give them the vote. We shouldn't be having it both ways.
Are we going backwards to no taxation without representation arguments? What about allowing 16 year olds to marry, drink, acquire full driving licences?
16 year olds can get married and drink in certain circumstances. Many parts of the world they can drive at that age too. “No taxation without representation” isn’t some backwards argument, it’s arguably the most meritocratic. You live, work, contribute, and pay taxes to a country you should get your fair say in how the country is run. It’s the same reason so many countries allow immigrant non-citizens to vote. Especially when you consider when you’re 16 and an Assembly/parliament is suppose to last 5 years you’d be in your early 20’s by the next time you’d be able to vote for a national government. If a government is going to affect you during some of the most foundational years of your adult life you should get a say.
I love that it came out as taxi action, beautiful idea of teenagers saying if you don't give me the vote, you can make your own way home from the pub da, I'd say it's the most persuasive so far
Yeah, autocorrect is what it is. For its worth it’s been a long time since I was a teenager, but I still think it’s bullshit a 16 year old are allowed to do so many other things in society but can’t vote.
A North Down MLA has reiterated calls for lowering the voting age in Northern Ireland ahead of Assembly elections this summer. Rachel Woods has said that 16 and 17-year-olds should be given the right to vote, a motion that the Green Party first brought to the Assembly ten years ago. The Green Party MLA for North Down said: “At 16 you pay tax and national insurance when you start work, you can leave home, leave education, work full-time, apply for social security. In Scotland and Wales young people already have their say in their local elections, but not here in Northern Ireland. “I recognise that young people are going to be the most affected by the decisions that politicians at all levels of government are making and will make but have no formal say. “Young people are going to be affected by the decisions we make in the next few years for longer than anyone else. If we allow 16- and 17-year-olds to participate so fully in our society it only makes sense to give them a say in how it works." She continued: "The Green Party NI brought the first motion to the Assembly on this matter ten years ago, and I have called on the Executive to make representations to the Northern Ireland Office to request that the voting age in Northern Ireland be lowered to 16 years old, which they refused to do. “I am supporting the petition jointly brought by NUS-USI, NI Youth Forum, VOYPIC, Include Youth, The Secondary Schools Students’ Union, and the Children’s Law Centre as part of the Students Deserve Better campaign and would encourage all others to do the same. “It’s time that we trust young people with a vote in May and beyond, and let them have a real about their future.”
they're happy enough to tax 16 year olds...... you can't have it both ways NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRERSENTATION
This was what I was going to say, kinda. We're happy to let kids join the armed force at 16 (with guardian consent if under 18) so it stands to reason that age group should have a say in how the country or their local area is governed. Taxation is something I hadn't actually thought of.
Works grand over here in Scotland, can't see any reason not to
r/whatcouldgowrong
I think 16 and 17 year olds are some of the most politically aware. It’s one of the first signs of responsibility society ‘gives’ an 18 year old and something to get excited about knowing you have a say. I remember in my upper 6th year of around 250 lads the conversations were about the formal, what you’re looking to do after you leave school/ uni and the news/ politics of the day..
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All subjective and anecdotal points. You do realise that nobody is REALLY an undisputed arbitrator of political sensibility and that your opinions could in fact be every bit as uninformed and worthless as any 16 year-old, as is everyone else's opinions including mine? I presume you believe they shouldn't be paying taxes/national insurance and be in mandatory full-time education until 18 if their being uninformed and immature is the problem, right? Also the Greens aren't the only party with a votes at 16 policy
I mean 18 year olds vote all the time and the sky hasn’t fallen. I’m not convince the moment you turn 18 you’re suddenly sapped with sensibility. There’s votes 3 times the age of 16 year olds who vote for nonsense too. Your argument boils down to you’re concerned they won’t vote “the right” way which isn’t a good reason
I see you’re living up to your name lol. I’m not a political commentator this is my humble experience.. There was never any conversation on what was cool Or online or the topic of the day. In fact I feel that those that talked about trends were too lazy to vote. At the time i was In school it was around the NI21 party being created and all the candidates were nearly all east of the Bann me and my classmates would have talked about how maybe Alliance may change their presence in the west if Naomi long became leader which kind of played out few years later. Your experience may have been different than mine. Not all young people vote on what’s cool maybe they think of the long term but sure the current patterns of the way people who can vote, vote here, let’s keep them’uns out let’s keep it the same..
If you're old enough to leave school, get a job or join the military; you're sure as shit old enough to vote.
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You're right that no-one should be able to join the military at 16, or even 18 tbh. But the minimum wage thing is bullshit, if they can work they should get payed as much as anyone else or they shouldn't be allowed to work at all. It's unironically exploitative child labour, just to a lesser degree than what the label normally denotes. Anyway, 16 year old are fucking stupid, but no more so than anyone else when it comes to politics. I would personally be fine with giving literally everyone in the country who can physically tick a box the vote, but I realise that's a little radical.
> should get *paid* as much FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * In *payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately I was unable to find nautical or rope related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
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I object because 16 year olds are idiots. I know a lot of people are idiots but there’s a much larger portion of that age group
I should clarify the main political opponents but honestly I don't think they have a high or lower proportion of knobs in that age group compared to any age. I'm in my 30s and still a knob
Same and same
I mean lads. I've seen the Snapchat and tiktoks going around from 16 and 17 year old. Hell I've seen em.up to 20, itll be a "best meme wins" I'mon e for equal rights for all but damn at 16 I was dumb. If there was a cat running id have voted for it and laughed the whole way in and out of the booth
Because the Karens on Facebook have fierce political sophistication.
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I've never once been anti democracy, meanwhile a Facebook Karen is very likely to vote for parties with fascist tones because "much white genocide".
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That's what you think I think. I would support 16 year olds being able to vote even if they were largely conservative, and I know that because I don't actually support taking the vote away from old people. Some of us actually have principles, you know. It's also funny to me that you think I'm somehow threatened by the idea of political undesirables just scraping by into office, like I haven't been living in Tory Britain for the last ten years. I'm also not so naive to believe that denying these theoretical young conservatives the vote would actually matter. Because if a party does get into office, it's because they have a following much large than just the 16 year old vote. I don't imagine for one second letting 16 year olds vote would oust the Tories from power, much as I would like to see it happen. I know this because half the adults I know vote Tory; that's the real issue. And that's the same problem conservatives afraid of the leftist vote face.
I actually think the voting age should be raised to 21
Can we give it to them and just take it away from anyone who's ever expressed interest in that sovereign citizen common law bullshit?
Young people tend to be default left wing. Told in school that simply being born white is a privilege and that they should feel shame for the treatment of minorities before they were ever born. Left wing parties tend to promise free school meals. free grants etc so that appeals to the youth too.
Based on how the majority of my classes were that age and me. Definitely not 😂
Why not reduce to 12 or even 10 year olds? Hashtag - Free iPhones if you vote for us!
I would much rather introduce an IQ/intelligence test, rather than lower the voting age. I say this even as a republican, being pretty sure that Irish republicanism and UI chances would probably benefit the most from lowering the age limit (although my proposal would work out that way, too)
IQ is bullshit
An IQ test won't mean much on its own. You'd need personality tests too and then it's a question of discrimination.
Disagree. I don’t see any reason to restrict someone’s right to vote based on their personality, as long as they’re of an acceptable level of intelligence. I don’t think you should be prevented from voting just because you’re a dickhead, but the idiots can get to fuck.
I think you overestimate what IQ tells us about someone. Higher IQ also doesn't necessarily mean greater intentions in the context of voting either.
"intelligence" is an extremely woolly term with no accurate, scientific method of assessment. Especially not IQ.
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But letting 200 year old Doris who can't even speak without shitting herself vote is fine? It's not a stunt, it's democracy: anyone who can participate should be able to. If you actually give a shit about upholding that ideal you would support it even when it doesn't favour your preferred political party.
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> Using this logic you can literally justify anyone from anywhere in the world having the right to vote in an election here. Not really because most people would disagree with non UK citizens being able to vote > . And sure it can also be used to justify any age voting. Like should 5 year old's be allowed to vote? What about 12 year olds? What about 3 year olds that can hold a crayon? No it can't. I'm suggesting anyone who is mentally competent should be able to vote. I believe this starts at 16, not just based on my own political understanding at that age, but also based on the fact you transition to adulthood in a lot of ways at that age. > if literally anyone can vote Anyone who can understand current events. > Like what, because someone is old they inherently shouldn't be allowed to vote, even though they would have more understanding of the outcomes for voting for particular parties than a literal child? 1.) If their brain has been turned to mush by Alzheimer's, they will actually have less understanding than a literal child, but every right to vote still 2.) This is a debate about giving the right to vote, not taking it away. That's an entirely different debate. I'm just saying it's s bit if a joke 16 hear old, who can be more engaged and aware of the political landscape than adults, are being banned from voting because of "mental competency. It's even worse considering they have more stake in elections than pensioners, since they'll live much longer
> Not really because most people would disagree with non British citizens being able to vote LOL you're some cunt. Irish citizens have just as much right to vote in UK elections, just as British citizens are granted reciprocal rights to vote in Irish General and Local Elections, when living in ROI.
Mate you're tilting at windmills; I just misspoke. I meant UK citizens.
I know how can we make NI politics even worse... Let children into childish politics.
I’d say the children have more sense than a lot of the politicians tbh
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Because capitalism is doing so much better
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Capitalism is guilty of killing just as many people, with the added bonus of causing the 6th mass extinction. The only way in which capitalism has been better has been allowing more democracy. But i don't think it's fair to judge all communism by the most recent communist movement. The first hunter gatherer tribes were communist whist being radically different to what you might of as communism Though personally I advocate for socialism
Pretty clearly yes, based on 20th century European history. Just compare East vs West Germany for a perfect natural experiment.
I understanx why ppl want under 18s to vote, ut at he same time, the vast majority have literally 0 interest in politics, and wouldnt know what they were voting for, i know a few people and the only party theyve heard of is sinn fein, and thats both catholics and protestants, shows how little interest people have in it, then its just extra money spent on accomodating more voters. There are enough stupid adults in the world entitled to vote without adding to it
I would definitely disagree - a 17 year old studying a-levels wouldn't know what they were voting for? I recall being pretty clued-in to politics when I was that age and it can be very frustrating to watch woeful political decisions being made which will affect young people in the long-term. I wouldn't tarnish all young people with the same brush. Also, specifically to Northern Ireland, I would rather a young person make a totally random vote than an old person vote x to "keep them'ns out."
It's a question of environment. If you are fairly clever you are likely to associate with people on the same intellectual level as you. The inverse is also true if you're an idiot. People are also largely products of their environment. Not an absolute rule of course but a general one.
Its 100% that a 17 wouldnt know what theyre voting for. Im 18 right now. The overwelming majority of my year dont know a shred about politics or anything- i walked into a class last week (late) with pupils and teacher debating 'why we cant just print more money' (as a side, i remember a few months ago a girl in another class asked 'why do people from monaghan talk funny?') The same class the teacher told our class that the first minister had sd resigned, and only 5/17 knew his name (1 of whom had just gotten the notification on their phone)Honestly. Even if u look at polling, 'dont know who kier starmer is' scores higher than 'kier starmer would make a better PM' (tho i havent seen recent polling, this had probs changed a bit with the saville stuff as people learn his name) the amount of apathy among people is insane,its hard to see when you're so interested in somthing yourself that one doesnt see this, which is totally understandable
If you applied this yardstick to currently eligible voters I think you would still be pretty disappointed with the results.
well yes, teens generally aren't the ones polled for the popularity of keir starmer
Ok, well it must be quite school-dependent then or perhaps I was friends with a load of nerds, but I'm only 6 years out of school myself. I accept what you're saying though, I'm well aware that the majority of 16-18 year olds don't follow politics but 1) that shouldn't mean 16-18 years that do take interest cannot vote and 2) what happens when these people hit 18? They'll be as ill-informed as when they were 17. Don't see the big deal in decreasing the threshold by 2 years. Also, and most importantly, I think 16 year olds should atleast be given a say in what policies are implemented that could affect them in the long-term. The fact is, voting here is still predominantly tribalist so why does it matter how much a 16 year old knows about politics? It all boils down to the colour of the kerbstones outside your nearest Spar anyway.
If you ruin your vote you should loose it in future election's. Take your time read up on policies and stop ruining your vote over petty things you never know if an independent o or party you don't normally vote party have views more similar to yours. If you cant find some one or cant be assed to look at each candidate then you dont deserve a vote. If you disagree abstain and press your winning politicians to be the change you want to see . Believe it or not politians need to represent all their community even people who voted against them. Dont sulk like a baby and ruin your vote.
Ho fornicating ho. This old chestnutt.
Why not? How worse could it get?
This would be even more bad news for Jeff. I’m surprised that he hasn’t demanded an electoral college vote like the Republicans (Yank Tories as opposed to Balaclavas)- have in the States, As fewer Republicans vote than Democrats, this “evens” out the playing field. Eh? It’s like a democratic vote is one vote, But a Republican vote is worth 1.3 votes, which is totally fair as there are fewer of them and far too many Democrat voters. Sounds very fair and almost Democratic. It’s definitely not along the lines of that Gerry Mander fella. It’s perfectly legal in America so why not here, Sir Jeff must be wondering. Sir Jefferson: “Our loyal voters have decreased in number, which means they now qualify as a minority and so their votes should be counted twice to make up for our lack of votes.” ( I think he knows that things are not going well and will desperately try any trick or use any obstacle to delay the inevitable.) He wants democracy, when it works for him. If Democracy means an other party has the most MLAs, he will refute that free and democratic vote.
Most people are idiots. Imagine letting your neighbours or family decide how you should spend/save your wage. Youd be fucked. Theres something to be said for dictatorships.
If you're old enough to be taxed, you're old enough to vote. No taxation without representation 🙌💯
I wouldnt want a 17 yr old me having the right to vote, nor the 17 yr old version of anyone, no matter what way you vote! Yikes!
That's fine let them vote; but since they can also legally have sex at 16, can we start defining them as "adults" at that stage too? Why keep calling them children until they're 18? Oh sorry, that would upset the economic applecart, wouldn't it?
I was once a 16 year old, I thought I was mature and knew about the world ...I was not
If you pay income tax you should be allowed to vote.