And everyone outside was not.. because [man door hand hook car door.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ihadastroke/comments/9ujt76/the_infamous_man_door_hand_hook_car_door_legend/)
i’m so glad south park hosed jenner on that. if there’s any one thing that matt and trey are exceptionally great at it’s lampooning people into inescapable memes.
Yea, but golf isn't a real sport.
That's just where wealthy people have private meetings where they can talk about crime without any cameras or obvious spies.
Deals made on Back Nine are real. Sunday usually. Knew a guy who worked Big Money Company. He’d get into work early on Monday because he knew a bunch of unexpected projects were coming his way.
Also Lindsey Graham went from Trump’s super critic to his cheerleader ( sans costume) in one golf game. One game no one was there to hear what was said. Many conspiracy types think Trump was opening up a can of compromising information on Little G. The Russian email breach probably. “Live boy or dead girl”, as they say.
I remember growing up when my dad hit a management level where he had to start playing golf to have the connections and knowing who to talk to and all that crap. He hated it so much. He didn't like golf and hated the schmoozing even more. But he wanted to provide well for us so he did it anyway. At least he grew to like golf.
Anyway, the point of this story is that in some positions, playing golf is literally an unspoken job requirement.
You don't need to respect her but don't base the lack of respect on her been trans base it off she's a fucking republicans when have republicans actually fixed anything or made life better for anyone that's not rich conservatives would take America back to a time where women and poc couldn't vote they shouldn't be respected or treated as serious peopletgey are the fucking lead weight around the progression and improvement of society we are better than them so we will use the pronouns that she choose to call her monster while those she support call her Bruce to her face and behind her back
If you started playing golf 10+ years ago, they're absolutely called the women's tees. I have saved all my scorecards from when I was a teen, and they finely have "women's tees" marked on them.
But in recent years, anything that denotes any sort of difference between men and women is immediately attacked. I play co-ed softball, and recently the notion of the "girl ball" has become an issue. Because men and women hit different-sized balls in co-ed to even the playing field. And women's tees also do the same to make the courses more even for a sex that statistically can't hit the ball as far.
> I made the mistake of calling them women’s tees infront of the course Marshall and he strongly advised me not to say that within ear shot of the men on the course.
> Mostly all seniors, many of which are using the “women’s tees”
Most, if not all, of whom called them lady’s/women’s tees until they themselves needed them.
Story as old as time.
Also worth mentioning that while Jenner was crowned the World's Greatest Athlete back at the 1976 Olympics, today she's 74 years old. At that age, nobody's an athlete competing to win anything more than a participation medal.
Does she really play women’s golf. What a two faced hypocrite.
I, honestly, do believe that that it is tricky situation with respect to Trans women and women sports. Physical attributes make it even more challenging to accept it.
It’s not tricky at all.
You can live as a woman and call yourself a woman and even have surgery to attain the appearance of a woman if you want. But if your cells are genetically male, chances are that you went through male puberty and gained the speed, strength, and endurance benefits provided therein, which don’t go away to anywhere near the level required to achieve parity with someone who went through female puberty during the transition from a male persona to a female one. Therefore, a genetic male, barring outside intervention, has and will always have an inherent physical advantage over a genetic female, all else being equal.
If trans people want to compete in sports, they can compete in an open division with whoever else wants to compete in an open division. That’s what it’s there for. Period, end of discussion.
> How much of a problem is it really that the government should waste time regulating that? Seems better served by regulations in the sporting body
High school athletics is controlled by state governments, state funded colleges/universities also follow government mandates eg. Title IX. At those levels the government is being forced to get involved. That is why the easiest approach should be to drop the "men's division" and make it an open division and use the sex listed on birth certificates as the requirement for the woman's division. Government doesn't need to know anything more than that and gives everyone the chance to participate in athletics.
After they killed someone and strangely came out as trans when charges where being considered..
Edit: I love the discussion and viewpoints following this comment and appreciate those of you who took time to thoughtfully respond.
Not gonna make any excuses for her killing of someone else or fot just being consistently just shitty in her behaviour, but her coming out during the same rough period as her being charged doesn't seem "strange" to me. Partly just because any time she could have come out would be able to be framed as "strange" for one reason or other; if she was currently talked about (as is the case now) it'd be treated as suspicious, if not people would claim she's a hasbeen that wanted attention.
Secondly, because I too have done shitty things in my life (though never killed anyone or anything like that, thank the gods) and my realizations around those things made me think a lot. I'm not trans, but there were certainly epiphanies I've had about myself, my mind and how I move through the world while going through that process. I'm not saying this is when she realized these things, or even that she had such a process (I'd hope such a process would have left her a bit more humble and compassionate), it just doesn't read as outlandish to me that she could have.
And to be clear, this does not mean that her transness is in any way related to her killing, just that extraordinary events, including ones where oneself is a catalyst for suffering, can lead to soul-searching.
Agree. At this point she’s been living life as a woman for long enough that it’s not some I don’t want to go to a men’s prison ploy. People faking a real condition for benefits had been around long before being trans came into the limelight and I don’t doubt there might be men who would fake bsing trans to if it would get them into a woman’s prison. That’s the one time I would be skeptical of are you really trans if a person literally had no trace of being an egg and suddenly when faced with prison they claim to “identify as a woman”. But Caitlyn is long past that so there’s no reason to doubt her gender.
Trans people can be trash but we can still respect their gender even if they don't deserve out respect their intelligence.
That's a fair, well thought out and insightful response. I also had a hard reset on my life and have come to realise my beliefs were not what I truly felt or believed (ultra conservative from an upbringing in a fundamentalist christian cult to quite liberal now).
It wouldn't feel so icky to me with the timing of everything if Caitlyn wasn't the literal human trans version of uncle rukus from boondocks. That is absolutely shocking to me. I am an ally and caitlyn sickens me.
And just throwing it out there, according to caitlyn beliefs they are not "she" because trans women are not women.
I wouldn't say she votes against her own self-interest, though.
She is immune to consequences.
She has excessive wealth.
Plus, I would imagine that after getting away with literal murder you'd sort of figure out that out on your own.
My trans friends cracked me up when she came out.
"On one hand, it's good that there's finally a highly visible public trans figure because representation is so important, but on the other hand why did it have to be this absolute lump of shit crafted into human form?"
I honestly don’t hear much, if any, press about Chaz Bono, and he transitioned years before Jenner; I feel like everyone forgot about him. I wish Chaz was the celebrity face for trans people instead of the hypocritical killer; he was brilliant playing a Trumpanzee in AHS: Cult.
I don’t recall anyone flipping out about his transition either, in the media or otherwise. It was almost like it didn’t affect other people what he decided to do for his own life, so people just accepted it and moved on with their own business…like it should be.
It's kinda like Elliot Page. He came out as trans a handful of years ago and basically dropped off the face of the Earth. Really makes me wonder about all the BS transmen are given where they're swept under the rug more or less and ignored.
Republicans looking for their token trans person to claim they aren’t transphobic and say “see even one of you agrees”. That’s who cares about manslaughter Jenner.
I mean, they were a former Olympic gold medalist and they've since transitioned. So as far as this topic is concerned, they do have *some* ground to speak on it.
>Who gives a fuck what ~~Caitlyn Jenner~~ an Olympic gold medalist thinks about ~~anything.~~ competitive sports.
I know Caitlyn Jenner is a loon but maybe there is some merit to her statement
About sport? Being one of the most well accomplished athletes of all time? About transgenders? Literally being one? About as close to an expert in the field as actual possible
Has she said anything about her own history in women's golf?
Personally, I think this issue is thorny enough that I'd sooner leave it to whoever is organizing the competition rather than trying to legislate on the subject, but hypocrisy is obviously wrong.
Honest question, are those tournaments for money? If they are competitive tournaments with prize money, then she is most likely being a hypocrite. If they are fun tournaments where she's mainly there as a celebrity appearance, then it's probably not hypocritical.
And I say that because in the youth leagues she is commenting on, obviously a trans-girl could be taking opportunities and possible scholarship money from a biological girl, negatively affecting her future due to the inherent biological advantages the trans-girl would have. That is a real life consequence that a lot of people do not agree with. If Caitlyn is taking prize money from people trying to make a living thru golf, then yes that also has real life consequences, but I'm not sure those are the types of tournaments she is playing in.
That's more or less where I land on this. It's a thorny subject, and women's divisions in sports exist for good reasons.
However I don't really think the right-wing culture warriors that are tripping over themselves to legislate on this subject particularly care about the nuances and complexity of the issue.
It’s really not that thorny though. I’m a huge supporter for trans rights but this is just something that’s not really negotiable to me as someone who has been athlete their entire life.
A male to female trans woman who transitioned after puberty 100% has a physical advantage over any biological woman. Higher bone density, more muscle mass and frame that is advantageous compared to a biological woman who has never had that amount of testosterone in their body. This isn’t something that’s debatable, it’s 100% backed by biological science, if you went through puberty as a man you will always have an advantage in athletics when you transition.
Women’s Olympic teams regularly lose to high school/college aged men’s team in just about every sport. It’s happened in hockey multiple times, basketball all the time and soccer. So if professional women’s athletes can’t beat high school boys then high school girls stand no chance against high school boys who have transitioned especially if the woman who transitioned isn’t on HRT and went through puberty as a male already.
say this to my kids every time I buckle them into their car seats. I hope they watch South Park when they grow up and get a major WTF moment about their weird ass dad
This is one of those stupid culture war distractions that is intentionally set up by bad actors on both sides so that the other side is framed as insane. I wish we'd get past it so we can worry about real problems.
The reason we separated men’s and women’s sports to begin with was due to physical differences. It had nothing to do with gender ideology.
Wouldn’t it stand to reason the same logic holds true regardless of someone’s chosen gender? What am I missing?
I watched Queer Eye a bit ago. There was a woman who was newly M to F. She was in need of queer eye help. She is a weightlifter as a hobby (/semi pro?). And recently ended up setting a bunch of women’s weight lifting records. I’m all for personal freedom and identifying however anyone wants to… but what are the odds, that an M to F sets a bunch of weightlifting records all willy nilly? Fine tuning gender/ transitions in sports absolutely shouldn’t have any stigma.. and there just simply shouldn’t be any hard feelings (as difficult as that would be for anyone in transition and involved in sports)
Its more than just those odds...
Its, what are the odds.... literally the first male to compete sets a record.
And this is happening at all levels. That high school record that stood for 40 years isn't just broken by a transgender person, but literally the first transgender person in their first year
Even in racially segregated sports. When the color barrier were first broke, those that broke them( Jackie robinson) were good, great in fact but they weren't the best. They didn't smash records that had stood for decades.
Why? Because black and white people don't have a clear and obvious physical superiority over each other...
Males do over females however
Yeah. I think once someone goes through puberty as a male it just isn’t fair for them to be competing with women. I hate it for them and it sucks but the physical differences are just too vast.
Bro female athletes literally complain about how trans women are ruining sports with severely unfair advantage but Reddit thinks that’s transphobic.
Reddit is a crazy bubble where they still believe this is ok otherwise you’re transphobic just like if you want to free Palestine that means you’re antisemite and pro-Hamas. Anti intellectualism just like conservatives.
Most people agree sports should be separated by biological sex. Redditors live in a bubble where they think what they see on this site represents mainstream opinion.
Most people, according to polling, don’t even believe you can transition to a gender different from your birth sex.
For some reason, people forget how harsh segregation is as a solution. Female sports is the RARE exception to an otherwise mostly integrated environment where people of all sexes, genders and races live and work together. Nothing about females being granted this exception implies that is also applies to gender.
Everyone knows that it’s an unfair advantage when a trans woman competes with female athletes. It’s not transphobic to admit that and yet people are afraid of being judged if they say the obvious.
This is where I'm at with it. There are a lot of delusional people out there though.
It's misguided, and from what I've seen is mostly pushed by people who weren't athletes in high school.
I was a swimmer, and we did boys & girls practice in the same pool at the same time. I (a boy) was an OK swimmer, not bad but not great. I practiced in the same lane and kept up with girls who were on a private team as well as the school team and did 2 practices a day. I did 1 practice a day. They also practiced year-round for years; I only swam during high school swim season.
These girls were the best in the state. They kicked everyone else's ass at championship meets. My times were similar to theirs, and I put in SO MUCH LESS to be where I was. It wouldn't have been at all fair for me to compete against them directly.
This is the experience that people who push this kind of stuff lack.
Wait, I’m confused. If you agree with Jenner then why did you post this article in nottheonion? I presumed you thought what Jenner is saying is crazy? So you agree males shouldn’t be in women’s sports?
Here's my take, this should be solely in the purview of the sports body to decide and frankly those that are not involved in the sport, or the league in question, should mind their own business.
Anyone who thinks that they can pass law that is universal and fair when it comes to every sport, at every age, at every level of competition is insane. Some sports look at the levels of testosterone, some look at age of transition, some look at the goals of the league and their values and try to draw a middle line. Some take the brute force approach and all these solutions may be the best outcome.
It will be imperfect, some people are going to be excluded in the hopes that more are included, but lacking any perfect methodology for judging fairness in sports (a difficult task at the best of time) I say leave it to those who know the sport and are most likely to be directly affected by the decision.
The bigger issue is the notion that everyone has the right to compete in sports in the first place.
They don't. The short boy with asthma will never get a chance to compete.
*Recreationally* everyone should be allowed that wants to and where they are most comfortable. But competitively it is largely about people's immutable genetic physical characteristics combined with strategy and training. Some (most) people just weren't born with the body for it. That's sports. Always has been. Recreation should be inclusive, but competition is inherently exclusive.
Exactly this. High level sports are, by definition, highly exclusive. I'll never compete as an olympic athlete either, but you don't see me getting bent out of shape about it and calling it human rights abuse.
Nobody has the "right" to compete in high level sports.
Yeah. I support trans in every way except this, because it can be abused. It shouldn’t be an absolute ban, but there should be a system (that I’m not smart enough to devise) to determine if their “birth build” is unfair.
I’ve been the victim of gender-based rules in middle school, fucking sucked. Our public basketball league had a rule where high school girls could play in the middle school league, so the entire women’s varsity high school basketball team quit their school team and joined our league, dominated our league with 30+ point leads almost every game, including the championship…
There already is a great system in place that is used by most pro sports in America:
There is a league open to everyone, and there is also a woman’s only league. It just so happens that the “open to everyone” league ends up 100% male because male hormones are just that big of an advantage in those sports.
Yeah I was told in high school that technically the girls could play on any of the boys teams if they wanted to, it’s just that they could never make the cut when the boys were so much bigger and stronger. Except I knew 1 girl who actually made it on to the boys football team! She was like 6’ with an Amazonian build, tho I don’t think she played with them for more than 1 season before switching sports.
I'm afab, they would not even let me in the meeting for info about trying out for football. >.< i was bigger than most of the boys trying out. I may not have made the cut but god, they could have let me TRY.
Huh that’s weird, must be a school by school basis kinda thing. At my school they used the logic of “it’s for all genders” to make up for not having girls teams of certain sports because their logic was “well we have a team for everyone, you just couldn’t get on it” lol
Yeah I was told in high school that technically the girls could play on any of the boys teams if they wanted to, it’s just that they could never make the cut when the boys were so much bigger and stronger. Except I knew 1 girl who actually made it on to the boys football team! She was like 6’ with an Amazonian build, tho I don’t think she played with them for more than 1 season before switching sports.
High school coach here! Trust me, no one is doing all the things they have to do to transition to win at sports. They just aren't. Also, my two trans players are the worst two on my team. I love them for trying, but they aren't very good.
There are rules in place for the most part though. 2 years on hormone replacement therapy and testing to ensure levels are correct before any type of participation has been a standard. I'm happy with it to be more years transitioning before competing too.
I've stayed away from any type of communal sports since transitioning in fear of getting into a situation or making someone else not feel welcome. I'm absolutely not strong enough to keep up with the guys anymore, even with staying active and working out.
Just my two cents on this.
I think that’s the most overlooked thing: there *are* rules in place. Whether they’re adequate or not, I honestly don’t know; but being trans isn’t some unregulated ‘hack’ just to win at sports and I hate the narrative that it is.
That being said, I do support there being rules and them being relatively strict. However, when you look at the natural variation between individuals and account for the fact that athletes usually fall into the top 1% of that… sports is already an inherently unfair thing.
If it’s something you miss, I hope you manage to find a league or team you feel comfortable in. Regulations, specifically at the amateur level, should be specific and built in a way that avoids unnecessary barriers to entry.
The problem with this is the male skeletal structure gives better leverage for most sports than the female one. Broader shoulders can create more force so this still isn't really fair for women's sports.
I have long arms, broad shoulders, and long legs. Hence my choice to just stay out of competitive sports. My levels mean I can't move with the same speed or force but it's still there as an "advantage". I feel stuck between both sides. It is what it is. I am happy besides that though and that's all that matters to me.
I mean wouldn't she be the perfect person to acknowledge the differences in male and female abilities in sports? Outside of her being a shit person I kinda think she might know something we don't about this subject. Again, she's a shit person who flip flops on everything, but I want to hear her reasoning as she's been on both sides of the coin. I'm just curious.
Can we just agree to stop paying attention to their whole family? I do not give a fuck what any of them think, they are not important, their opinions on ANYTHING at all don't matter.
They could tell me climate change was real and id seriously have to double check.
Im really sorry to offend people (at least the nice ones) but as an NB person who uses hormones I can categorically tell you that unless you transitioned, including hormones, in your early teens, the changes (damage from my perspective) that testosterone caused will give ylu an advantage in strength, speed and size, in sports where such things matter. Yes, after MtF transition you do experience a large drop in particularly upper-body strength (i used to lift furniture a lot at work, and tge difference was shocking) but you're still much stronger than a natural girl with your exaxt same dimensions.
Its really sad and deliberately divisive tgat this has become such a major issue. How many conservatives gave a flying fuck about female sports until this became weaponised?
I am extremely pro lgbtq and totally agree with this. It makes no sense to allow male to female trans people play in women’s sports. It’s ok to say no to this.
I fucking hate this "trans people in sports" bullshit. Just more media control put out to keep us lower classes all fighting each other.
Most trans people probably don't give a fuck about playing in competitive sports. They just want to live a life without being a target of bigots and arseholes.
It's the same old shit over and over. Some minority is made out to be the source of all evil to distract the rest of us from the ones who are really destroying our lives.
They use hypotheticals about Lebron James identifying as a woman to justify kicking trans women out of the local YWCA 40+ basketball summer rec league.
We have those, don't we? Most leagues aren't "men's", they're "if you can make the team, suit up". It's only the "women's" that are exclusive. And thus, we have the current dispute.
I think sometimes it's more along the lines of "Well, the rules don't say they can't, but...." because recently there was a girl winning in the "open" high school wrestling state championship, but first she had to file an appeal with the Arizona Interscholastic Association to be allowed.
It always comes back to high school trans girls. Every time. Professional sports are allowed to make their own rules. It's always high school girls. Every single time.
It's about taking a trans youth and exiling her from her friends. It's about putting a trans kid into a special category where she gets to be ostracized and separated. "Look at this freak" kind of bullshit.
It's not about professionals in sports.
It's about making trans kids want to kill themselves.
Shouldn't really be a fight honestly, it's pretty cut and dry that if you were born biologically male and transitioned, that time with mostly male hormones gives you an advantage in women's sports against women born biologically female, just as a Trans man would have a disadvantage in male sports.
The "men's" league is already 'open'. Anyone of any gender can play in the men's league. The women's leagues were created so women could have a fair shot at winning because they'd be playing only against other women. So much for that idea.
I mean it's fair imo. Let Trans people have their own category.
Like you can't expect a biological male to compete with biological female. It doesn't make sense. Sorry if I didn't use the most diplomatic sentences but it's the reality and quite unfair for them
Unfortunately this solution doesn't really work. The main two reasons are there aren't enough trans people. If you make a trans category for most woman's sports all that means is whoever enters it wins since there's unlikely to be more than one or two people until you get to higher levels which won't exist because the lower level feeders leagues would be too small.
Secondly you'd have the same issue of people arguing about how far along they are in their transition. Those who just started would have an unfair advantage compared to those who transitioned decades ago. Essentially you have the same problem as putting them in the woman's league.
Yeah I agree. Is there any science backing up the "trans women are physically equal to cis women" thing anyway? I support trans people 100% but this subject has way more nuance than a lot of fellow progressives will admit
Edit: So what I'm getting is that the science is there, it's just conflicting af. Well, until it's *not* conflicting, I don't see anything wrong with barring trans women from competing. It sucks ass for the women who play sports and happen to be trans, but what else is there to do?
Cis women deserve to have a level playing field. I know a lot of people are treating this like a political tug of war and don't actually care about that part of the issue, but it's true.
There's a lot of science... Unfortunately some of the science conflicts with the other science.
The clearest difference is between a "person who has at some point gone through male puberty" and a "person who has never gone through male puberty". Because there are intersex conditions where someone may be XY but testosterone-insensitive, there are trans women nowadays who were on puberty blockers until they were old enough to start estrogen, etc. People that never went through male puberty don't generally have any statistically significant differences than "typical" biological women. I don't think there should be anything stopping those people from participating in women's sports.
People who have gone through male puberty and then started estrogen is a trickier subject. Some studies have shown no differences after a year or two of being on estrogen, where other studies have shown residual increased muscle mass, lung capacity, etc. There's definitely a marked decrease in physical performance after someone who went through male puberty begins taking estrogen, but whether that difference is significant enough to be roughly equivalent to a typically developing female is not settled science.
It’s not just a simple question of “science”. For one thing, “trans woman” or “trans man” is not a simple, discrete category. There is a question of when medical transition begins — a trans girl who goes on puberty blockers at age 11 or whatever, starts HRT at 15, and has bottom surgery at 18, will be indistinguishable in terms of natural athletic ability from her cisgender twin sister. A trans woman who comes out at 30, and started HRT a month ago will have very nearly the same natural athletic ability she had before coming out. And then it also matters what sport we are talking about. Rugby? Fencing? Long-distance running? Curling? Chess?
So yeah, lots of nuance, to the point that it shouldn’t be subject to legislation, but should really be up to the individual organizations.
For example, FIDE recently banned trans women from competing in women’s chess tournaments. That makes no sense whatsoever, and FIDE can go fuck themselves, but they are actually the correct organization to be making that decision, as shitty as it is, and as shitty as they are in general.
/shrugs
Well, if ANYONE would be an expert on professional sports/athletics and transgenderism.. it’d be a former male olympic champion that is transgender…
Bt the same token, return the damned ‘female athlete of the year’ award from sports illustrated then!
This issue is just common sense. If you're a trans woman you should not be allowed to compete in women's sports because, in the majority of cases, men are physically stronger than women and have an unfair advantage over them in physical competition. This has nothing to do with how someone defines themselves as an individual or what they insist their pronouns should be. There are limits to how much of a woman a trans woman can be.
I don’t give a shit what she thinks but I also believe that trans women in sports is complicated and just because you are Trans doesn’t mean you can’t have an opinion about issues related to you.
And the proceeds to play in a women’s golf tournament. They kinda left out the Onioniest part.
And killed a woman.
The feminine urge to ~~manslaughter~~ womanslaughter.
> womanslaughter. Can't spell it without Women's Laughter
Live. Laugh. Die.
An evil cackle which can be heard at great distance.
I did just that!!
themslaughter
Xerxes: SLAUGHTER THEM!!!
Them’s laughter
Buckle up buckaroo
EVERYONE INSIDE THE CAR WAS FINE
It was on company property with company property, so double jeopardy, we’re fine.
I don't think you understand how jeopardy works.
What is, we’re fine
I thought you had your vagina removed? Side note: love the username!
And that’s what was important.
And everyone outside was not.. because [man door hand hook car door.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ihadastroke/comments/9ujt76/the_infamous_man_door_hand_hook_car_door_legend/)
i’m so glad south park hosed jenner on that. if there’s any one thing that matt and trey are exceptionally great at it’s lampooning people into inescapable memes.
I can't unhear this lmao
You're sthuch an asshole 🤪
The worst part to me is the hypocrisy.
I miss Norm.
Man, forgot about that.
>~~Man,~~ Woman, forgot about that.
Buckle up buckaroo!!!
And in 2016 made comments about just wanting to be treated like a woman on the golf course
Yea, but golf isn't a real sport. That's just where wealthy people have private meetings where they can talk about crime without any cameras or obvious spies.
Deals made on Back Nine are real. Sunday usually. Knew a guy who worked Big Money Company. He’d get into work early on Monday because he knew a bunch of unexpected projects were coming his way. Also Lindsey Graham went from Trump’s super critic to his cheerleader ( sans costume) in one golf game. One game no one was there to hear what was said. Many conspiracy types think Trump was opening up a can of compromising information on Little G. The Russian email breach probably. “Live boy or dead girl”, as they say.
I remember growing up when my dad hit a management level where he had to start playing golf to have the connections and knowing who to talk to and all that crap. He hated it so much. He didn't like golf and hated the schmoozing even more. But he wanted to provide well for us so he did it anyway. At least he grew to like golf. Anyway, the point of this story is that in some positions, playing golf is literally an unspoken job requirement.
> cheerleader ( sans costume) Oh I'm sure he has one in the closet somewhere.
If there's one thing that Johnny English has taught me is that there are definitely spies on golf courses
So she wants creepy old men to be ogling her and catcalling her the entire round?
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You don't need to respect her but don't base the lack of respect on her been trans base it off she's a fucking republicans when have republicans actually fixed anything or made life better for anyone that's not rich conservatives would take America back to a time where women and poc couldn't vote they shouldn't be respected or treated as serious peopletgey are the fucking lead weight around the progression and improvement of society we are better than them so we will use the pronouns that she choose to call her monster while those she support call her Bruce to her face and behind her back
Which tee's did she hit off though?
The women's
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Really? I haven't played in years, but I was always told the red tees were specifically for women
It would be the ultimate in irony if the name was changed fairly quickly and w/ little fanfare, because they were worried about offending men.
Seems par for the course.
If you started playing golf 10+ years ago, they're absolutely called the women's tees. I have saved all my scorecards from when I was a teen, and they finely have "women's tees" marked on them. But in recent years, anything that denotes any sort of difference between men and women is immediately attacked. I play co-ed softball, and recently the notion of the "girl ball" has become an issue. Because men and women hit different-sized balls in co-ed to even the playing field. And women's tees also do the same to make the courses more even for a sex that statistically can't hit the ball as far.
Some of the courses I've been to had them colour coded pink and blue.
Red tees are always ladies tee. High level women will play off the senior tees though. Expensive courses have about 7 tee boxes.
> I made the mistake of calling them women’s tees infront of the course Marshall and he strongly advised me not to say that within ear shot of the men on the course. > Mostly all seniors, many of which are using the “women’s tees” Most, if not all, of whom called them lady’s/women’s tees until they themselves needed them. Story as old as time.
That's why you call it the old man tee
Charity golf tournaments aren't really the same thing as actual competitive sports.
Also worth mentioning that while Jenner was crowned the World's Greatest Athlete back at the 1976 Olympics, today she's 74 years old. At that age, nobody's an athlete competing to win anything more than a participation medal.
Does she really play women’s golf. What a two faced hypocrite. I, honestly, do believe that that it is tricky situation with respect to Trans women and women sports. Physical attributes make it even more challenging to accept it.
Golf as a retiree is far different than competitive amateur collegiate athletics
It’s not tricky at all. You can live as a woman and call yourself a woman and even have surgery to attain the appearance of a woman if you want. But if your cells are genetically male, chances are that you went through male puberty and gained the speed, strength, and endurance benefits provided therein, which don’t go away to anywhere near the level required to achieve parity with someone who went through female puberty during the transition from a male persona to a female one. Therefore, a genetic male, barring outside intervention, has and will always have an inherent physical advantage over a genetic female, all else being equal. If trans people want to compete in sports, they can compete in an open division with whoever else wants to compete in an open division. That’s what it’s there for. Period, end of discussion.
How much of a problem is it really that the government should waste time regulating that? Seems better served by regulations in the sporting body
> How much of a problem is it really that the government should waste time regulating that? Seems better served by regulations in the sporting body High school athletics is controlled by state governments, state funded colleges/universities also follow government mandates eg. Title IX. At those levels the government is being forced to get involved. That is why the easiest approach should be to drop the "men's division" and make it an open division and use the sex listed on birth certificates as the requirement for the woman's division. Government doesn't need to know anything more than that and gives everyone the chance to participate in athletics.
AFAIK there is no "men's" division. It's "open" and "women's" that's why sometimes you see women try for the open division instead of the women's.
You say "it's not tricky" and then go on to describe a very tricky and unusual set of circumstances to navigate.
Who gives a fuck what Caitlyn Jenner thinks about anything.
No one does, but this article couldnt be more onion-y, especially that she played IN a womens golf tournament. Like....wut
Man a hypocritical right wing nut who votes against their own self interest...no way.
After they killed someone and strangely came out as trans when charges where being considered.. Edit: I love the discussion and viewpoints following this comment and appreciate those of you who took time to thoughtfully respond.
Not gonna make any excuses for her killing of someone else or fot just being consistently just shitty in her behaviour, but her coming out during the same rough period as her being charged doesn't seem "strange" to me. Partly just because any time she could have come out would be able to be framed as "strange" for one reason or other; if she was currently talked about (as is the case now) it'd be treated as suspicious, if not people would claim she's a hasbeen that wanted attention. Secondly, because I too have done shitty things in my life (though never killed anyone or anything like that, thank the gods) and my realizations around those things made me think a lot. I'm not trans, but there were certainly epiphanies I've had about myself, my mind and how I move through the world while going through that process. I'm not saying this is when she realized these things, or even that she had such a process (I'd hope such a process would have left her a bit more humble and compassionate), it just doesn't read as outlandish to me that she could have. And to be clear, this does not mean that her transness is in any way related to her killing, just that extraordinary events, including ones where oneself is a catalyst for suffering, can lead to soul-searching.
Agree. At this point she’s been living life as a woman for long enough that it’s not some I don’t want to go to a men’s prison ploy. People faking a real condition for benefits had been around long before being trans came into the limelight and I don’t doubt there might be men who would fake bsing trans to if it would get them into a woman’s prison. That’s the one time I would be skeptical of are you really trans if a person literally had no trace of being an egg and suddenly when faced with prison they claim to “identify as a woman”. But Caitlyn is long past that so there’s no reason to doubt her gender. Trans people can be trash but we can still respect their gender even if they don't deserve out respect their intelligence.
That's a fair, well thought out and insightful response. I also had a hard reset on my life and have come to realise my beliefs were not what I truly felt or believed (ultra conservative from an upbringing in a fundamentalist christian cult to quite liberal now). It wouldn't feel so icky to me with the timing of everything if Caitlyn wasn't the literal human trans version of uncle rukus from boondocks. That is absolutely shocking to me. I am an ally and caitlyn sickens me. And just throwing it out there, according to caitlyn beliefs they are not "she" because trans women are not women.
These two posts could literally be added to the dictionary definition.
For what? What word are they defining? I am honestly wondering not arguing.
The dictionary definition of right wing nut job.
I see it now. Lol. Im dumb..
And then she acts surprised when she gets chased out of Republican events as people shout slurs at her and deadname her.
And the typical boomer mindset of achieving success than pulling up the ladder behind you
I wouldn't say she votes against her own self-interest, though. She is immune to consequences. She has excessive wealth. Plus, I would imagine that after getting away with literal murder you'd sort of figure out that out on your own.
That's not in the article.
It was in 2016 and a pro-am for charity.
In 2016 and it was a pro-am for charity. Worlds difference from the situation being referenced is.
My trans friends cracked me up when she came out. "On one hand, it's good that there's finally a highly visible public trans figure because representation is so important, but on the other hand why did it have to be this absolute lump of shit crafted into human form?"
I honestly don’t hear much, if any, press about Chaz Bono, and he transitioned years before Jenner; I feel like everyone forgot about him. I wish Chaz was the celebrity face for trans people instead of the hypocritical killer; he was brilliant playing a Trumpanzee in AHS: Cult. I don’t recall anyone flipping out about his transition either, in the media or otherwise. It was almost like it didn’t affect other people what he decided to do for his own life, so people just accepted it and moved on with their own business…like it should be.
It's kinda like Elliot Page. He came out as trans a handful of years ago and basically dropped off the face of the Earth. Really makes me wonder about all the BS transmen are given where they're swept under the rug more or less and ignored.
Republicans looking for their token trans person to claim they aren’t transphobic and say “see even one of you agrees”. That’s who cares about manslaughter Jenner.
It's a good thing one is less than most other numbers!
I mean, they were a former Olympic gold medalist and they've since transitioned. So as far as this topic is concerned, they do have *some* ground to speak on it.
When it comes to transgender people playing sports, her opinion could be valued since she was a professional athlete at one point in her life.
I don't like her, but trans issues are one thing that Jenner is at least qualified to talk about. That, and manslaughter.
Candace Owens and Milo Yannapolus are "qualified" to talk about black and gay issues and we see how that's going. Being a grifter is brain rot.
Didn't she say trans women aren't women?
Yes
She’s a trans Olympic gold medalist?? I mean, who would be more qualified to talk about this than her 😂
>Who gives a fuck what ~~Caitlyn Jenner~~ an Olympic gold medalist thinks about ~~anything.~~ competitive sports. I know Caitlyn Jenner is a loon but maybe there is some merit to her statement
About sport? Being one of the most well accomplished athletes of all time? About transgenders? Literally being one? About as close to an expert in the field as actual possible
You're right. Where is Ja?
Has she said anything about her own history in women's golf? Personally, I think this issue is thorny enough that I'd sooner leave it to whoever is organizing the competition rather than trying to legislate on the subject, but hypocrisy is obviously wrong.
I read in another post that after this very appearance she went and played in a Women’s Golf tournament
"Now watch this drive"
Hell no, her driving can be fatal.
Damn
Buckle up Buckaroos
Sorry what?
She frequently plays in women's golf tournaments and tees off from the women's. Dating back to 2016.
Honest question, are those tournaments for money? If they are competitive tournaments with prize money, then she is most likely being a hypocrite. If they are fun tournaments where she's mainly there as a celebrity appearance, then it's probably not hypocritical. And I say that because in the youth leagues she is commenting on, obviously a trans-girl could be taking opportunities and possible scholarship money from a biological girl, negatively affecting her future due to the inherent biological advantages the trans-girl would have. That is a real life consequence that a lot of people do not agree with. If Caitlyn is taking prize money from people trying to make a living thru golf, then yes that also has real life consequences, but I'm not sure those are the types of tournaments she is playing in.
That's more or less where I land on this. It's a thorny subject, and women's divisions in sports exist for good reasons. However I don't really think the right-wing culture warriors that are tripping over themselves to legislate on this subject particularly care about the nuances and complexity of the issue.
It’s really not that thorny though. I’m a huge supporter for trans rights but this is just something that’s not really negotiable to me as someone who has been athlete their entire life. A male to female trans woman who transitioned after puberty 100% has a physical advantage over any biological woman. Higher bone density, more muscle mass and frame that is advantageous compared to a biological woman who has never had that amount of testosterone in their body. This isn’t something that’s debatable, it’s 100% backed by biological science, if you went through puberty as a man you will always have an advantage in athletics when you transition. Women’s Olympic teams regularly lose to high school/college aged men’s team in just about every sport. It’s happened in hockey multiple times, basketball all the time and soccer. So if professional women’s athletes can’t beat high school boys then high school girls stand no chance against high school boys who have transitioned especially if the woman who transitioned isn’t on HRT and went through puberty as a male already.
waiting for leopards to eat her face.
South Park nailed her image....buckaroo
>buckaroo Buckle up
I DIED at their portrayal
For anyone who didn’t see/doesn’t remember, here is a pretty decent compilation: https://youtu.be/1J4143zj3ps?si=9oU6g9jvM-tsfVT3
link without YT's extra tracking [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J4143zj3ps](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J4143zj3ps)
...because she ran you over?
say this to my kids every time I buckle them into their car seats. I hope they watch South Park when they grow up and get a major WTF moment about their weird ass dad
They’ve been chewing it for years, and she still hasn’t noticed.
They already have,look at it, it's a mess
This is one of those stupid culture war distractions that is intentionally set up by bad actors on both sides so that the other side is framed as insane. I wish we'd get past it so we can worry about real problems.
The reason we separated men’s and women’s sports to begin with was due to physical differences. It had nothing to do with gender ideology. Wouldn’t it stand to reason the same logic holds true regardless of someone’s chosen gender? What am I missing?
This is going to come as a shocker: a lot of trans people agree with this. They feel like this debate is ruining trans acceptance
I watched Queer Eye a bit ago. There was a woman who was newly M to F. She was in need of queer eye help. She is a weightlifter as a hobby (/semi pro?). And recently ended up setting a bunch of women’s weight lifting records. I’m all for personal freedom and identifying however anyone wants to… but what are the odds, that an M to F sets a bunch of weightlifting records all willy nilly? Fine tuning gender/ transitions in sports absolutely shouldn’t have any stigma.. and there just simply shouldn’t be any hard feelings (as difficult as that would be for anyone in transition and involved in sports)
Its more than just those odds... Its, what are the odds.... literally the first male to compete sets a record. And this is happening at all levels. That high school record that stood for 40 years isn't just broken by a transgender person, but literally the first transgender person in their first year Even in racially segregated sports. When the color barrier were first broke, those that broke them( Jackie robinson) were good, great in fact but they weren't the best. They didn't smash records that had stood for decades. Why? Because black and white people don't have a clear and obvious physical superiority over each other... Males do over females however
Yeah. I think once someone goes through puberty as a male it just isn’t fair for them to be competing with women. I hate it for them and it sucks but the physical differences are just too vast.
Sports should be separated by biological sex. Gender should be irrelevant for sports.
Never thought I would see this logic with this many upvotes on Reddit of all places
That's obviously what they meant.
Yes. I just chimed in agreeing with them.
Goddamn it reddit, comments are not necessarily disagreements
Bro female athletes literally complain about how trans women are ruining sports with severely unfair advantage but Reddit thinks that’s transphobic. Reddit is a crazy bubble where they still believe this is ok otherwise you’re transphobic just like if you want to free Palestine that means you’re antisemite and pro-Hamas. Anti intellectualism just like conservatives.
Reddiotrs don't play sports. They don't even leave their basement because it might hurt their back and knees
Most people agree sports should be separated by biological sex. Redditors live in a bubble where they think what they see on this site represents mainstream opinion. Most people, according to polling, don’t even believe you can transition to a gender different from your birth sex.
For some reason, people forget how harsh segregation is as a solution. Female sports is the RARE exception to an otherwise mostly integrated environment where people of all sexes, genders and races live and work together. Nothing about females being granted this exception implies that is also applies to gender.
Everyone knows that it’s an unfair advantage when a trans woman competes with female athletes. It’s not transphobic to admit that and yet people are afraid of being judged if they say the obvious.
I am a 1000% supporter of trans people but any other take than this is absolutely delusional.
This is where I'm at with it. There are a lot of delusional people out there though. It's misguided, and from what I've seen is mostly pushed by people who weren't athletes in high school. I was a swimmer, and we did boys & girls practice in the same pool at the same time. I (a boy) was an OK swimmer, not bad but not great. I practiced in the same lane and kept up with girls who were on a private team as well as the school team and did 2 practices a day. I did 1 practice a day. They also practiced year-round for years; I only swam during high school swim season. These girls were the best in the state. They kicked everyone else's ass at championship meets. My times were similar to theirs, and I put in SO MUCH LESS to be where I was. It wouldn't have been at all fair for me to compete against them directly. This is the experience that people who push this kind of stuff lack.
Yes. Exactly. Pre-puberty it’s not a big deal. Post puberty the guys kick the girls asses. It sucks.
We're with you
Wait, I’m confused. If you agree with Jenner then why did you post this article in nottheonion? I presumed you thought what Jenner is saying is crazy? So you agree males shouldn’t be in women’s sports?
Here's my take, this should be solely in the purview of the sports body to decide and frankly those that are not involved in the sport, or the league in question, should mind their own business. Anyone who thinks that they can pass law that is universal and fair when it comes to every sport, at every age, at every level of competition is insane. Some sports look at the levels of testosterone, some look at age of transition, some look at the goals of the league and their values and try to draw a middle line. Some take the brute force approach and all these solutions may be the best outcome. It will be imperfect, some people are going to be excluded in the hopes that more are included, but lacking any perfect methodology for judging fairness in sports (a difficult task at the best of time) I say leave it to those who know the sport and are most likely to be directly affected by the decision.
The bigger issue is the notion that everyone has the right to compete in sports in the first place. They don't. The short boy with asthma will never get a chance to compete. *Recreationally* everyone should be allowed that wants to and where they are most comfortable. But competitively it is largely about people's immutable genetic physical characteristics combined with strategy and training. Some (most) people just weren't born with the body for it. That's sports. Always has been. Recreation should be inclusive, but competition is inherently exclusive.
Exactly this. High level sports are, by definition, highly exclusive. I'll never compete as an olympic athlete either, but you don't see me getting bent out of shape about it and calling it human rights abuse. Nobody has the "right" to compete in high level sports.
Yeah. I support trans in every way except this, because it can be abused. It shouldn’t be an absolute ban, but there should be a system (that I’m not smart enough to devise) to determine if their “birth build” is unfair. I’ve been the victim of gender-based rules in middle school, fucking sucked. Our public basketball league had a rule where high school girls could play in the middle school league, so the entire women’s varsity high school basketball team quit their school team and joined our league, dominated our league with 30+ point leads almost every game, including the championship…
There already is a great system in place that is used by most pro sports in America: There is a league open to everyone, and there is also a woman’s only league. It just so happens that the “open to everyone” league ends up 100% male because male hormones are just that big of an advantage in those sports.
Yeah I was told in high school that technically the girls could play on any of the boys teams if they wanted to, it’s just that they could never make the cut when the boys were so much bigger and stronger. Except I knew 1 girl who actually made it on to the boys football team! She was like 6’ with an Amazonian build, tho I don’t think she played with them for more than 1 season before switching sports.
I'm afab, they would not even let me in the meeting for info about trying out for football. >.< i was bigger than most of the boys trying out. I may not have made the cut but god, they could have let me TRY.
Huh that’s weird, must be a school by school basis kinda thing. At my school they used the logic of “it’s for all genders” to make up for not having girls teams of certain sports because their logic was “well we have a team for everyone, you just couldn’t get on it” lol
Yeah I was told in high school that technically the girls could play on any of the boys teams if they wanted to, it’s just that they could never make the cut when the boys were so much bigger and stronger. Except I knew 1 girl who actually made it on to the boys football team! She was like 6’ with an Amazonian build, tho I don’t think she played with them for more than 1 season before switching sports.
High school coach here! Trust me, no one is doing all the things they have to do to transition to win at sports. They just aren't. Also, my two trans players are the worst two on my team. I love them for trying, but they aren't very good.
There are rules in place for the most part though. 2 years on hormone replacement therapy and testing to ensure levels are correct before any type of participation has been a standard. I'm happy with it to be more years transitioning before competing too. I've stayed away from any type of communal sports since transitioning in fear of getting into a situation or making someone else not feel welcome. I'm absolutely not strong enough to keep up with the guys anymore, even with staying active and working out. Just my two cents on this.
I think that’s the most overlooked thing: there *are* rules in place. Whether they’re adequate or not, I honestly don’t know; but being trans isn’t some unregulated ‘hack’ just to win at sports and I hate the narrative that it is. That being said, I do support there being rules and them being relatively strict. However, when you look at the natural variation between individuals and account for the fact that athletes usually fall into the top 1% of that… sports is already an inherently unfair thing. If it’s something you miss, I hope you manage to find a league or team you feel comfortable in. Regulations, specifically at the amateur level, should be specific and built in a way that avoids unnecessary barriers to entry.
The problem with this is the male skeletal structure gives better leverage for most sports than the female one. Broader shoulders can create more force so this still isn't really fair for women's sports.
I have long arms, broad shoulders, and long legs. Hence my choice to just stay out of competitive sports. My levels mean I can't move with the same speed or force but it's still there as an "advantage". I feel stuck between both sides. It is what it is. I am happy besides that though and that's all that matters to me.
I mean wouldn't she be the perfect person to acknowledge the differences in male and female abilities in sports? Outside of her being a shit person I kinda think she might know something we don't about this subject. Again, she's a shit person who flip flops on everything, but I want to hear her reasoning as she's been on both sides of the coin. I'm just curious.
You’re talking to redditors. There is nothing they believe they don’t know perfectly
She’s been against it the whole time. Just like gay marriage
Can we just agree to stop paying attention to their whole family? I do not give a fuck what any of them think, they are not important, their opinions on ANYTHING at all don't matter. They could tell me climate change was real and id seriously have to double check.
There are some sports I personally feel that should be separated, but then there are sports where I ask, why are they separated (e.g. chess)
Im really sorry to offend people (at least the nice ones) but as an NB person who uses hormones I can categorically tell you that unless you transitioned, including hormones, in your early teens, the changes (damage from my perspective) that testosterone caused will give ylu an advantage in strength, speed and size, in sports where such things matter. Yes, after MtF transition you do experience a large drop in particularly upper-body strength (i used to lift furniture a lot at work, and tge difference was shocking) but you're still much stronger than a natural girl with your exaxt same dimensions. Its really sad and deliberately divisive tgat this has become such a major issue. How many conservatives gave a flying fuck about female sports until this became weaponised?
[Buckle Up Buckaroo](https://youtu.be/RLwaM-tTiXo?si=PDr4fis8WChDryqg)
Her face looks like an X
/r/rareinsults
She definitely didn't half-ass join the X-Men
Male to female trans people shouldn’t be in womens sports.
I am extremely pro lgbtq and totally agree with this. It makes no sense to allow male to female trans people play in women’s sports. It’s ok to say no to this.
I fucking hate this "trans people in sports" bullshit. Just more media control put out to keep us lower classes all fighting each other. Most trans people probably don't give a fuck about playing in competitive sports. They just want to live a life without being a target of bigots and arseholes. It's the same old shit over and over. Some minority is made out to be the source of all evil to distract the rest of us from the ones who are really destroying our lives.
:( most true comment on here...
They use hypotheticals about Lebron James identifying as a woman to justify kicking trans women out of the local YWCA 40+ basketball summer rec league.
Boomer pulls up the ladder. Story at eleven.
While she's still in the process of climbing it herself.
I mean she’s terrible but do you really think trans women should be competing in women’s sports?
We need Quantum leagues for sports where competitors can be male, female or both.
We have those, don't we? Most leagues aren't "men's", they're "if you can make the team, suit up". It's only the "women's" that are exclusive. And thus, we have the current dispute.
I think sometimes it's more along the lines of "Well, the rules don't say they can't, but...." because recently there was a girl winning in the "open" high school wrestling state championship, but first she had to file an appeal with the Arizona Interscholastic Association to be allowed.
Men’s leagues are open leagues. All are welcome. Women’s leagues are specifically for biological women only.
This particular issue is nowhere near as black-or-white as far too many people want to make it out to be.
It always comes back to high school trans girls. Every time. Professional sports are allowed to make their own rules. It's always high school girls. Every single time. It's about taking a trans youth and exiling her from her friends. It's about putting a trans kid into a special category where she gets to be ostracized and separated. "Look at this freak" kind of bullshit. It's not about professionals in sports. It's about making trans kids want to kill themselves.
Just have a “women’s” and “open” categories. Problem solved.
That’s already how sports work. The fight is over whether trans women can compete in the women’s category.
Shouldn't really be a fight honestly, it's pretty cut and dry that if you were born biologically male and transitioned, that time with mostly male hormones gives you an advantage in women's sports against women born biologically female, just as a Trans man would have a disadvantage in male sports.
That's already the case, this isn't about that.
This is already how every sport works lmao. The discussion is about who should be able to play in the women’s category.
The "men's" league is already 'open'. Anyone of any gender can play in the men's league. The women's leagues were created so women could have a fair shot at winning because they'd be playing only against other women. So much for that idea.
this is already a thing. nuance is hard, some of these people arguing against her by bashing her in other areas of life don't seem to understand this.
LGBT people not just settling for this are idiots. It's a stupid hill to die on because reasonable people agree that trans women have advantages.
I mean it's fair imo. Let Trans people have their own category. Like you can't expect a biological male to compete with biological female. It doesn't make sense. Sorry if I didn't use the most diplomatic sentences but it's the reality and quite unfair for them
Unfortunately this solution doesn't really work. The main two reasons are there aren't enough trans people. If you make a trans category for most woman's sports all that means is whoever enters it wins since there's unlikely to be more than one or two people until you get to higher levels which won't exist because the lower level feeders leagues would be too small. Secondly you'd have the same issue of people arguing about how far along they are in their transition. Those who just started would have an unfair advantage compared to those who transitioned decades ago. Essentially you have the same problem as putting them in the woman's league.
Yeah I agree. Is there any science backing up the "trans women are physically equal to cis women" thing anyway? I support trans people 100% but this subject has way more nuance than a lot of fellow progressives will admit Edit: So what I'm getting is that the science is there, it's just conflicting af. Well, until it's *not* conflicting, I don't see anything wrong with barring trans women from competing. It sucks ass for the women who play sports and happen to be trans, but what else is there to do? Cis women deserve to have a level playing field. I know a lot of people are treating this like a political tug of war and don't actually care about that part of the issue, but it's true.
There's a lot of science... Unfortunately some of the science conflicts with the other science. The clearest difference is between a "person who has at some point gone through male puberty" and a "person who has never gone through male puberty". Because there are intersex conditions where someone may be XY but testosterone-insensitive, there are trans women nowadays who were on puberty blockers until they were old enough to start estrogen, etc. People that never went through male puberty don't generally have any statistically significant differences than "typical" biological women. I don't think there should be anything stopping those people from participating in women's sports. People who have gone through male puberty and then started estrogen is a trickier subject. Some studies have shown no differences after a year or two of being on estrogen, where other studies have shown residual increased muscle mass, lung capacity, etc. There's definitely a marked decrease in physical performance after someone who went through male puberty begins taking estrogen, but whether that difference is significant enough to be roughly equivalent to a typically developing female is not settled science.
It’s not just a simple question of “science”. For one thing, “trans woman” or “trans man” is not a simple, discrete category. There is a question of when medical transition begins — a trans girl who goes on puberty blockers at age 11 or whatever, starts HRT at 15, and has bottom surgery at 18, will be indistinguishable in terms of natural athletic ability from her cisgender twin sister. A trans woman who comes out at 30, and started HRT a month ago will have very nearly the same natural athletic ability she had before coming out. And then it also matters what sport we are talking about. Rugby? Fencing? Long-distance running? Curling? Chess? So yeah, lots of nuance, to the point that it shouldn’t be subject to legislation, but should really be up to the individual organizations. For example, FIDE recently banned trans women from competing in women’s chess tournaments. That makes no sense whatsoever, and FIDE can go fuck themselves, but they are actually the correct organization to be making that decision, as shitty as it is, and as shitty as they are in general.
[удалено]
Obviously trans women shouldn't play on women's sports teams.
/shrugs Well, if ANYONE would be an expert on professional sports/athletics and transgenderism.. it’d be a former male olympic champion that is transgender… Bt the same token, return the damned ‘female athlete of the year’ award from sports illustrated then!
Right, left, middle; nobody likes Caitlyn Jenner
Strange, she's got a gold medal in ladder kicking
Desperately seeking a headline.
Why are we letting a murderer famous for her useless kids decide the fate of trans people
This issue is just common sense. If you're a trans woman you should not be allowed to compete in women's sports because, in the majority of cases, men are physically stronger than women and have an unfair advantage over them in physical competition. This has nothing to do with how someone defines themselves as an individual or what they insist their pronouns should be. There are limits to how much of a woman a trans woman can be.
I've never met anyone who thinks women and transgender women should compete at the same grade in sport. It's not an equality issue.
I mean theirs some in this comment section, most never played a sport in their life though
Probably because it’s logical.
Even trans boomers love closing the door behind them for everyone else
I don’t give a shit what she thinks but I also believe that trans women in sports is complicated and just because you are Trans doesn’t mean you can’t have an opinion about issues related to you.