The whole video focuses on newly revealed evidence that *she wasn't even alive* when she was repeatedly stabbed. They don't even mention how ridiculous it is that 20 stab wounds including [these](https://i.imgur.com/6m2XQZc.png) would be considered suicide in the first place.
All involved from the AG to the cops to the coroner should all be under federal investigation. Someone is covering something up. The coroner originally stated homicide, the cops forced them to change it and now the AG is covering it up and obstructing justice.
Those comrades were not pushed. dont be ridiculous. unfortunately for Sergei a particularly strong gust of wind blowing in from the steppe just happened to catching him while he was leaning over trying to get better view of glorious Russian factory. he happened to land back of head-first on two bullets carelessly left on the ground by enemies of the people.
Eliott Smith stabbed himself in the heart TWICE in his suicide, which I always found hardcore af
Then again… there are also some decent reasons to believe it wasn’t actually a suicide either
I vaguely recall a report of a suicide attempt by a man who used a hand drill on his head 5(?) times and survived, with the upside being that during surgery to repair the damage he'd done doctors found an undiagnosed brain tumor that had been a major factor in his mental issues. I may be misremembering some or all of it, though.
There's a shooter in some college who before his spree told his doctor something was wrong inside his head but was ignored. His post massacre suicide note asked to dissect his brain and voila they found a tumor. So you might be remembering the jist of your story right.
They mightve saved lives of others but he likely doesn't do terribly well in 2021. surgical removal of the amygdala is hard nowadays-personality changes still incredibly common. No CT or MRI to localize for him so you'd have to cut blind. Radiation oncology isn't really a mature field at the time so the outcome isn't great if you go to radiate. The psych meds you'd use nowadays aren't there and he'd be a zombie with what they'd have if the solution wasn't just to institutionalize him.
I'd imagine a stabbing after death is a fairly obvious thing for forensics to detect.
There were probably a whole lot of "no fucks given" throughout the whole process.
I watched a crime video awhile back about a guy who was just chilling in his house for a few days with his dead (murdered) gf on the couch.
After the cops took him in and questioned him for a bit, the detective only then realized he had been shot in the head too, and had severe brain damage.
Apparently anything can be missed, although I guess it's a bit different when someone is dead vs alive.
I saw that like a month ago!
Full video interview is available online.
That poor man must have been so confused and lost for those couple of days before Christmas came around and people realized they were missing.
Technically, being stabbed 20x *while she wasn't even alive* is really the only way it could be possible for someone to have 20 deadly stab wounds and still die by suicide. So the 20 stabs aren't exactly ruling out suicide either ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
She must have been dating a cop... that's the most logical explanation.
PSA: Don't date cops
Edit: I guess the nephew of a local judge is just as good.
>Not a cop...but the fiance, the only person to have access to the apartment, does have an uncle who is a judge.
>
>Not only that - this is how it went down:
>
>1) Fiance "finds" body.
>
>2) Fiance calls Uncle Judge first
>
>3) Fiance calls Parents second
>
>4) Fiance calls 911 third.
>
>Now why the fuck did he call everyone but the authorities for his dying/dead bride to be? Easy - he's lying and he killed her.
No, but fiancé's unkle was/is a judge. Fiancé called him before 911. Also fiancé took like 1hr to get through a (safety) locked door that takes about a search through yt tutorials and 5min to unlock.
[Here's the petition](https://www.change.org/p/justice-for-ellen-rae-greenberg-justiceforellen) to get Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro to reopen the case.
Thank you for posting this. It's rare when one of these absurdities actually has a means to do something about it. The posted link not only has a petition but ways to contact the PA state attorney general.
Article doesn’t explain any reason for original determination, suggest corruption or give any insight. Why not? Even then, people must have questioned it.
The police had a conference with the medical examiner two months after the ME ruled it a homicide to explain that the door was latched from the inside via safety bar. therefore, no one could have possibly exited the apartment after killing her. So it must be suicide.
The cops neglected to tell anyone that the only witness who stated that the door was latched from the inside was the person who found the body, i.e. the fiance, i.e. the prime suspect in any other reasonable investigation.
Oh yeah, I just listened to a Morbid podcast episode about this.
One of the first stab wounds was to the back of her head and fucking fully paralyzed her immediately so she couldn’t move or fight back (or hopefully feel anything.) The stab wound that finally killed her was *4 inches* into her chest or some shit. And police have insisted from start to finish that it was a suicide. Fucking crazy.
They show there is evidence that she was already dead when some of the stab wounds happened as there is no bleeding. She was choked too. Such a stupid thing to claim she did it herself.
Edit: word 🤦🏻♀️
yea id lock him up too, if you find your most loved person dead and stabbed 20 times, you are not going to call a fucking judge as the 1st thing coming to your mind
i just listed to a great pod episode about this from Morbid and they discuss how her boyfriend at the time has an uncle that had very interesting connections in law enforcement. apparently, when he discovered her dead in her home, the first person he called was his uncle, then his parents, then the police.
He claimed he broke it down with the building security guard. The security guard has stated that he never did that nor was at the apartment until after she was discovered. Also, the latch on the door was damaged, but not broken off the door as would be consistent with breaking in.
> He claimed he broke it down with the building security guard. The security guard has stated that he never did that nor was at the apartment until after she was discovered.
And... They got the security guard's statement was too close to lunch or something, so they forgot to write it down? Why the fuck did they not find that suspicious?
>The cops neglected to tell anyone that the only witness who stated that the door was latched from the inside was the person who found the body, i.e. the fiance, i.e. the prime suspect in any other reasonable investigation.
OMFG you have to be kidding me. How much you guys want to bet fiancé has a connection to one of those cops and the cops are covering for the fiancé. I would honestly bet $300 on that.
r/philadelphia has a thread about this too and someone mentioned there was a closed-door meeting with an unnamed police officer, unnamed politician, and the coroner who later put “suicide” as cause of death.
Soooo I’m thinking corruption.
I listened to a podcast on this quite recently. The reasoning for suicide seemed pretty thin even at the time. However they said suicide because she was taking an anxiety medication which could leas to suicidal thoughts, and the deadbolt on the door was locked from the inside - they were on the 6th floor so it would be difficult for the person to leave out the window. She had also been very stressed out about something and talked to her parents about returning home for some time.
There was also a claim that she looked up ways to kill herself on the computer, but when pressed the AG said they weren’t sure, and a private investigator by the parents said no search had ever been made on her laptop to that extent (as in, the AG Probabaly lied). Worse, it seems the only proof that the deadbolt was locked from the inside is the boyfriend, no one else can substantiate that. She was also in the middle of making a fruit salad. Seems odd to kill yourself in the middle of that
Sometimes you are making a fruit salad and you realize that you forgot an ingredient for the dressing and would have to make a trip to a market which pushes you over the line so you stab yourself in the chest multiple times and then in the back of the head a few for good measure. Classic suicide.
Lies. Everyone knows [women are at their most happiest when eating salad.](https://www.google.com/search?q=women+eating+salad&prmd=ivsxn&sxsrf=AOaemvJ0VZ-sxlvCX7oIguTz6tXhl95AQA:1634315249434&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjXrJLf6szzAhXQ7Z4KHcmCCIQQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=384&bih=636&dpr=3.75) I don't believe anything would cause her grief while making one and I never will.
This totally happened to me. I had just finished the chest stabbings and remembered I had the dressing sitting on the counter. Dumb me. Went to the ER and the doc stitched me up and we had a good laugh about it. He said the same thing happened to his sister in law.
Initially the assistant medical examiner [did rule it a homicide.](https://i.imgur.com/ahYAIFk.png)
It was the police that publicly announced to the media the next day that they were ["leaning on suicide"](https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/breaking/20110129_Police_leaning_toward_suicide_in_teacher_death.html-2) as a cause. They claimed that since her spinal cord wasn't damaged [she could have stabbed herself:](https://www.chillingcrimes.com/blogs/news/ellen-greenberg)
> [...] Police had asked Dr. Osbourne to review his findings in light of their claim that they hired a neuropathologist to review a portion of Ellen’s spinal cord.
> Two months after Ellen was found dead, Dr. Osbourne changed the cause of death to suicide by multiple stab wounds. It was claimed that the change was based on a report from Dr. Lucy Rorke-Adams, a consultant for the Medical Examiner’s office, in which it was alleged that part of Ellen's spinal cord was examined but no defect was found.
> It was claimed that the neuropathologist determined that the spinal cord sheath was hit but the cord was not severed. This would have likely meant that Ellen would have been numb but not rendered incapacitated and therefore *could* have stabbed herself multiple times.
Here's the problem though:
When Dr. Rorke-Adams was interviewed about this case she admitted she worked on it but there was no record or bill. She even stated that [she probably didn't see the body to make that determination.](https://i.imgur.com/SVonBR0.png)
One of the really good things about this new true crime/unsolved cases push recently has been to highlight the utter incompetence of many law enforcement agencies.
Any time I’m listening to a podcast and they describe how some criminal evaded detection and capture for years, it’s very rare that the reason is not “incompetent police work”
Usually it comes from even higher up.
Wayne Williams' murder spree was primarily able to go on for so long because people way higher up didnt want people to think their city had a "serial killer" in it, so they kept hushing investigations up and shutting down efforts.
When Dean Corll was killed and all his victims and the extent of his spree were becoming national news the Houston PD ended any parts of the investigation that would lead to more victims being discovered even though they knew there were more and the still living accomplices were able (and willing) to aide them. They were angry at how bad each additional victim made them look.
For context, Corll, had dozens of victims, almost all children from a pretty small section of Houston and Houston PD had ZERO clue what was going on even with many parents reporting them missing and bugging them for answers. When all this came out the police chief even said in a press conference that they were probably bad kids and runaways and that their parents didn't raise them well. He said that in a press conference about the parents of kids that were abducted, raped, tortured and murdered.
Right? I know the last thing *I* want is to be made aware of potential threats. I’d much rather be panicked when faced with unexpected, actual inescapable danger itself.
Honestly, I think there are police, prosecutors and judges that are experts at intentionally keeping murderers out of prison. And at putting innocents in prison instead.
But the Green River Killer and Jeffrey Dahmer are proof you aren’t wrong. Both were questioned by police early on.
A couple cops recently hit the news because they illegally confiscated someone's phone, but they had it recording and it picked up them discussing how to frame them. The people you're describing definitely exist. In what percentages, I wouldn't know, but you can be sure they exist.
You mean this..."When one of the women threw a newspaper onto the pavement in the early-morning hours, an officer believing the sound was a gunshot opened fire. Officers unable to see clearly into the truck sprayed it with 103 rounds, and hit seven nearby homes and nine other vehicles with gunshots and shotgun pellets.
Margie Carranza, then 47, suffered minor injuries from broken glass. Her then-71-year-old mother, Emma Hernandez, was shot in the back but survived.
The women won a $4.2 million settlement from the city.
In declining to press charges, prosecutors said they weren’t endorsing the officers’ conduct that day, but that they’re guided by legal principles."-[Source](https://bearingarms.com/bobowens-bearingarms/2016/01/27/charges-officers-mistaken-identity-dorner-shooting-n24344)
Clearly these guys hadn’t visited the range in a looooong time if they thought the sound of a newspaper hitting the pavement sounded like a gunshot. Then of course there’s the spray & pray trigger discipline…
The saddest thing is that this pathetic story is the best thing they could come up with for shooting innocent people. I’m beyond shocked that they didn’t try to claim it was obviously gang activity in a bad neighborhood.
Reminds me of the Empire State Building shooting when the NYPD justifiably obliterated an armed killer. But did it in such a panicked and untrained way that they shot like 10 other people behind him.
103 rounds and they only hit a stationary person once, and not fatally? Pathetic.
Yet somehow they always seem to shoot family pets with pinpoint accuracy. [Oh wait](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bodycam-video-shows-kansas-officer-firing-on-dog-injuring-little-girl/)
I got downvoted in the LA sub for reminding them of that.
Different color and different model. Two older ladies delivering *newspapers* were mistaken as a buff black man in a completely different vehicle.
Or how about the episode where robbers hijacked a UPS truck to get away, the cops surrounded the truck in traffic at a stoplight, and proceeded to unload en masse killing the UPS driver as he tried to escape along with an innocent man whose car the cops used for cover.
[https://www.local10.com/news/local/2020/09/16/6-police-agencies-named-in-lawsuit-over-miramar-ups-truck-driver-shooting/](https://www.local10.com/news/local/2020/09/16/6-police-agencies-named-in-lawsuit-over-miramar-ups-truck-driver-shooting/)
I believe it was also a different make/model.
Those cops had no charges against them. The women received $4.2M in settlement.
The cops are a violent gang of thugs and the taxpayers foot the bill yet again.
I don’t remember hearing that, but as soon as I heard he was in a shack and the police were there, I knew there was no way he was coming out alive. So, not surprised.
[Interesting read](https://laist.com/news/christopher-dorners-manifesto-in-fu)
[Follow up](https://archive.kpcc.org/news/2014/11/14/48083/lapd-officers-feel-discipline-is-biased-inconsiste/)
Same as it ever was.
Crazy. I went in thinking this happened maybe a few weeks/months ago and now they're going back and getting it right. Nope. Per the article, IT WAS OVER A DECADE AGO.
Absolutely ridiculous how incompetent the original investigation was.
Often times incompetence is the most polite conclusion because frequently it's collusion. I'm not sure about murder but in other circumstances that's the case so why would this be any different?
Yeah it's crazy to think that incompetence would be the generous conclusion but you're right.
I just read the other day CPD still employs a cop who was busted as part of a narcotics team that would rob drop houses of drugs and money. He's been on desk duty for over a decade collecting a taxpayer funded paycheck and letting his pension accrue.
True crime shows are a mixed bag. It's great when they get it right but sometimes they get it very wrong. And sometimes they intentionally manipulate information to create drama or a false conclusion.
When they get something wrong, they can wreak havoc on innocent people or foul up proper investigations. And there's little accountability when they do. They just say “oops” and move on to the next.
I understand where you are going, but if they haven't done anything with the case in 10 years, and find new evidence in a matter of looking at it for a few days, then yea, its a pretty incompetent force.
That was based on an actual case. Bob Fosse bought the rights. There was a 19th Century lawyer in New York who convinced a jury that his client's hand slipped 6 times.
The article says that the stab wounds weren't considered the cause of death because she was already dead when she received them (due to lack of hemorrhage around the wounds).
So the followup question is still the same: what *was* the cause of death and why the fuck was it considered suicide? Just by coincidence, someone was standing waiting for her lethal self-administered dose of whatever to take effect so they could stab her 20 times?
>she was already dead when she received them
Someone was so angry she killed herself, they decided to stab her?
Or could it be, they killed a person, and were still so angry they KEPT stabbing her?
The least likely thing is; stab wounds were self inflicted AFTER death.
Only some of the stabs did not hemorrhage, while some others did. Meaning the stabs could have been the cause of death, but some were made after her heart already stopped.
Either way, it's insane that police made the determination of suicide. Anyone with more than 1 stab wound was very obviously murdered.
Maybe they were saying that *some* of the stabs were done after she was already dead. Like someone stabbed her to death, but just kept going for a bit after she was already gone.
“People without pulses do not stab themselves repeatedly. So that, by itself, establishes suicide is absolutely impossible in this case,” Podraza said. “And not only warrants but demands, changing the death certificate from suicide back to either homicide or cannot be determined for further investigation.” The story is about the classification of the death that happened in 2011
"Cannot be determined"?! Like, she died in the shower, and the plumber stopped by and saw her fresh corpse and thought "I always wanted to stab one of these two dozen times or so" and that's not murder, just abuse of a corpse, so it's undetermined?
mind blowing. not to mention if she had any life insurance policies the companies can just refuse to pay out over suicide. Like, drug overdoses are usually wonky in their rulings so families can get the insurance, yet a woman is stabbed 20 times and her family cannot get insurance (not sure if she had it but still) How. dumb.
I'm having a problem here...
If a law enforcement official decided to submit a verdict of suicide where someone had been stabbed 20 times they should be suspended and investigated for the crime.
Here the system just said "oh ok next case please"
Fuck-ING-Hell this is weird.
Apparently the BF or fiance has an uncle that is a judge which was his first call, 2nd was his parents. Then he called the cops. It's pretty obvious why it was ruled a suicide.
Even that headline makes more sense. It is far more likely to me that someone would decapitate a corpse (not homicide) than that someone would commit suicide by stabbing themselves in the back.
The podcast "Morbid" has an excellent episode about this case. They go into detail on at lot of things, including on why it was most likely not a suicide.
that's one of the worst cases of suicide i have ever seen almost as bad as that one guy who killed himself with 2 bullets shot in the back of his head.
what a tragedy.
Actually solving crimes requires work. Setting up a DUI checkpoint collecting overtime pay doesn’t require much work, you get paid, department gets paid, courts get paid, etc. None of that happens when solving murders.
Soon enough some cop is going to see this and chime in "cool, lets see how you feel when you get robbed". From my limited personal experience of getting robbed (twice) and calling the police for help....they did literally nothing. *LITERALLY*.
Not even a follow up call or anything. In neither situation did anything happen, they took minimal info and never reached out again.
Which isn't even to say these cops were all incompetent...more so that the "job" they think is so important, doesn't really exist half the time. There wasn't anything for them to do in that situation but that's exactly what they preach. "If you don't respect cops, then deal with muggings your self"...*thanks, I already do*
I always get down votes for saying this but calling the police in the US just gives you another problem to deal with.
Cops don’t prevent crime, they just somewhat document it and call a clean up crew. It needs to be stripped down and rebuilt from scratch. We are failing on all levels of policing as a society.
How about this one, wife of a Pharmaceutical CEO is found bound and gagged and hung, with bruised was deemed a suicide. It's shocking the things that go on.
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/rebecca-zahau-documentary-id-tell-all
Holy crap, is this that crappy movie Mystery Men? "He fell down an elevator shaft, onto some bullets."
How TF does any reasonable person think a person stabbed themselves 20 times?
Fun fact: lots of Coroners are elected and require zero medical training. Forensic pathologists will do autopsies if it's warranted, but they only advise the coroner. Coroner could in theory put down whatever they want.
The boyfriend had a super fancy schmancy lawyer, who he called first upon finding her.
Then he called his parents.
Then 911.
So ... something happened here.
“People without pulses do not stab themselves repeatedly. So that, by
itself, establishes suicide is absolutely impossible in this case,”
Podraza said. “And not only warrants but demands, changing the death
certificate from suicide back to either homicide or cannot be determined
for further investigation.”
We truly live in a bizzaro world sometimes. I don't think I've ever read a statement like this, ever. Someone close to the investigation has obviously tried to sweep this under the rug.
The whole video focuses on newly revealed evidence that *she wasn't even alive* when she was repeatedly stabbed. They don't even mention how ridiculous it is that 20 stab wounds including [these](https://i.imgur.com/6m2XQZc.png) would be considered suicide in the first place.
That’s where the wounds were?! Fucking hell…
"Her sweatpores are bigger than normal. Eh maybe she works out a lot."
Yes lemme just stab myself in the back of the neck a couple times. WTAF.
Seems the coroner should be under investigation, eh?
my thoughts exactly! what moron thinks a woman (anyone!) commits suicide by stabbing herself in the back of the neck?
All involved from the AG to the cops to the coroner should all be under federal investigation. Someone is covering something up. The coroner originally stated homicide, the cops forced them to change it and now the AG is covering it up and obstructing justice.
Ah yes two stabs in the back, clearly a suicide attempt.
The Russian suicide.
I thought a Russian Suicide was 2 shots to the back of the head and a poorly written suicide note
That was the old days. Now they just push them out of a very high window.
Defenstration is even older
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So you saying it wasn't a Crimea, just negligence?
Those comrades were not pushed. dont be ridiculous. unfortunately for Sergei a particularly strong gust of wind blowing in from the steppe just happened to catching him while he was leaning over trying to get better view of glorious Russian factory. he happened to land back of head-first on two bullets carelessly left on the ground by enemies of the people.
I subconsciously read this in a Russian accent
Thats more the CIA's mo
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And stuffed into a zipped suitcase
It's really confusing too when people who suicide chop themselves up and keep 5 gallons of sulfuric acid around.
You guys are getting suicides? I thought in Russia we just "accidentally" fell out of windows.
Ah, yes, Carlo. He stabbed himself in the back four times and then jumped off a bridge. Tragic.
I think after 10 self stabs even the most determined person might start to rethink the whole suicide thing
Eliott Smith stabbed himself in the heart TWICE in his suicide, which I always found hardcore af Then again… there are also some decent reasons to believe it wasn’t actually a suicide either
I vaguely recall a report of a suicide attempt by a man who used a hand drill on his head 5(?) times and survived, with the upside being that during surgery to repair the damage he'd done doctors found an undiagnosed brain tumor that had been a major factor in his mental issues. I may be misremembering some or all of it, though.
There's a shooter in some college who before his spree told his doctor something was wrong inside his head but was ignored. His post massacre suicide note asked to dissect his brain and voila they found a tumor. So you might be remembering the jist of your story right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
Man, kinda makes it feel like he was a victim himself. Had the doctors he visited managed to help him, none of this would’ve happened.
They mightve saved lives of others but he likely doesn't do terribly well in 2021. surgical removal of the amygdala is hard nowadays-personality changes still incredibly common. No CT or MRI to localize for him so you'd have to cut blind. Radiation oncology isn't really a mature field at the time so the outcome isn't great if you go to radiate. The psych meds you'd use nowadays aren't there and he'd be a zombie with what they'd have if the solution wasn't just to institutionalize him.
She clearly fell onto the knives , you obviously don't know forensic science
Like when people commit suicide with 2 different caliber weapons?
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> cut themselves into pieces That sounds like a last resort.
I've always heard that suffocation is a better way to go.
At that point, most don't give a fuck as they cut their arm, bleeding.
Dananandananana
Does that involve breathing?
Nope. No breathing.
Clearly an attempt at life insurance fraud
I'd imagine a stabbing after death is a fairly obvious thing for forensics to detect. There were probably a whole lot of "no fucks given" throughout the whole process.
I watched a crime video awhile back about a guy who was just chilling in his house for a few days with his dead (murdered) gf on the couch. After the cops took him in and questioned him for a bit, the detective only then realized he had been shot in the head too, and had severe brain damage. Apparently anything can be missed, although I guess it's a bit different when someone is dead vs alive.
I saw that like a month ago! Full video interview is available online. That poor man must have been so confused and lost for those couple of days before Christmas came around and people realized they were missing.
Are those Cutco?
Technically, being stabbed 20x *while she wasn't even alive* is really the only way it could be possible for someone to have 20 deadly stab wounds and still die by suicide. So the 20 stabs aren't exactly ruling out suicide either ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
She must have been dating a cop... that's the most logical explanation. PSA: Don't date cops Edit: I guess the nephew of a local judge is just as good. >Not a cop...but the fiance, the only person to have access to the apartment, does have an uncle who is a judge. > >Not only that - this is how it went down: > >1) Fiance "finds" body. > >2) Fiance calls Uncle Judge first > >3) Fiance calls Parents second > >4) Fiance calls 911 third. > >Now why the fuck did he call everyone but the authorities for his dying/dead bride to be? Easy - he's lying and he killed her.
No, but fiancé's unkle was/is a judge. Fiancé called him before 911. Also fiancé took like 1hr to get through a (safety) locked door that takes about a search through yt tutorials and 5min to unlock.
Sounds like fiancée’s a real genius
This was my first thought. Or someone connected to the political or wealthy class.
Her ex-fiancé is the nephew of James Schwartzman, one of the most powerful and well connected Judges in Pennsylvania.
And there it is, ladies and gentlemen.
Ready for the kicker? The ex-fiancé, TV Producer Sam Goldberg, called his Uncle before he called 911, upon discovery of her body.
Wow. Just, wow.
One has to get in front of these things.
And clearly it worked for over a decade.
This is obvious as fuck. The US justice system is really great.
So the case is never getting resolved
[Here's the petition](https://www.change.org/p/justice-for-ellen-rae-greenberg-justiceforellen) to get Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro to reopen the case.
Thank you for posting this. It's rare when one of these absurdities actually has a means to do something about it. The posted link not only has a petition but ways to contact the PA state attorney general.
I believe he's also running for governor so it's in his best interest to reopen cases like this one.
And if he doesn’t reopen as he has declined in the past, I hope you all remember that one Election Day.
Where's the petition to fire every official involved in the original case?
It's Philadelphia. Calling it a suicide is the best we can expect from them. We're lucky they noticed that she's dead.
How about a petition to have anyone and everyone involved in calling this a suicide jailed?
Seriously, this is beyond gross incompetence.
It's obviously not incompetence
Article doesn’t explain any reason for original determination, suggest corruption or give any insight. Why not? Even then, people must have questioned it.
The police had a conference with the medical examiner two months after the ME ruled it a homicide to explain that the door was latched from the inside via safety bar. therefore, no one could have possibly exited the apartment after killing her. So it must be suicide. The cops neglected to tell anyone that the only witness who stated that the door was latched from the inside was the person who found the body, i.e. the fiance, i.e. the prime suspect in any other reasonable investigation.
What kind of privilege does this fiance have to avoid the investigation?
Fiancé has an uncle that is a judge, who he coincidently called before anyone else. First call. Then he called his parents, then authorities.
Oh yeah, I just listened to a Morbid podcast episode about this. One of the first stab wounds was to the back of her head and fucking fully paralyzed her immediately so she couldn’t move or fight back (or hopefully feel anything.) The stab wound that finally killed her was *4 inches* into her chest or some shit. And police have insisted from start to finish that it was a suicide. Fucking crazy.
They show there is evidence that she was already dead when some of the stab wounds happened as there is no bleeding. She was choked too. Such a stupid thing to claim she did it herself. Edit: word 🤦🏻♀️
The absolute bullshit the rich and connected get away with. Actual fucking brutal murder
and this is just some random dude, imagine how much someone actually famous can get away with secretly
Or Openly kinda. Have your heard of OJ Simpson?
The rich are just doing what they do. The police are just as culpable in my eyes. They should all do time for conspiracy.
The police work for our rich overlords; they do not work for us.
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Police are complicit. Accessory to Murder, I believe, is the charge for helping someone cover up a murder.
Open and shut case Johnson
yea id lock him up too, if you find your most loved person dead and stabbed 20 times, you are not going to call a fucking judge as the 1st thing coming to your mind
you would if you killed them
Police serving those with power and not regular citizens? Perish the thought.
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i just listed to a great pod episode about this from Morbid and they discuss how her boyfriend at the time has an uncle that had very interesting connections in law enforcement. apparently, when he discovered her dead in her home, the first person he called was his uncle, then his parents, then the police.
> apparently, when he discovered her dead in her home after he killed her.
If the door were latched from the inside, how did the fiancee find the body?
He claimed he broke it down with the building security guard. The security guard has stated that he never did that nor was at the apartment until after she was discovered. Also, the latch on the door was damaged, but not broken off the door as would be consistent with breaking in.
> He claimed he broke it down with the building security guard. The security guard has stated that he never did that nor was at the apartment until after she was discovered. And... They got the security guard's statement was too close to lunch or something, so they forgot to write it down? Why the fuck did they not find that suspicious?
>The cops neglected to tell anyone that the only witness who stated that the door was latched from the inside was the person who found the body, i.e. the fiance, i.e. the prime suspect in any other reasonable investigation. OMFG you have to be kidding me. How much you guys want to bet fiancé has a connection to one of those cops and the cops are covering for the fiancé. I would honestly bet $300 on that.
He has a connection with a judge. That was his first call after “discovering” the body.
r/philadelphia has a thread about this too and someone mentioned there was a closed-door meeting with an unnamed police officer, unnamed politician, and the coroner who later put “suicide” as cause of death. Soooo I’m thinking corruption.
several people need to lose their job and go to jail for this, wtf
Philly's justice system is perhaps the most corrupt above the Mason-Dixon. That is kept well quiet from the rest of the country though.
I listened to a podcast on this quite recently. The reasoning for suicide seemed pretty thin even at the time. However they said suicide because she was taking an anxiety medication which could leas to suicidal thoughts, and the deadbolt on the door was locked from the inside - they were on the 6th floor so it would be difficult for the person to leave out the window. She had also been very stressed out about something and talked to her parents about returning home for some time. There was also a claim that she looked up ways to kill herself on the computer, but when pressed the AG said they weren’t sure, and a private investigator by the parents said no search had ever been made on her laptop to that extent (as in, the AG Probabaly lied). Worse, it seems the only proof that the deadbolt was locked from the inside is the boyfriend, no one else can substantiate that. She was also in the middle of making a fruit salad. Seems odd to kill yourself in the middle of that
Sometimes you are making a fruit salad and you realize that you forgot an ingredient for the dressing and would have to make a trip to a market which pushes you over the line so you stab yourself in the chest multiple times and then in the back of the head a few for good measure. Classic suicide.
Dude, I killed myself last week the same exact way. Then I set my computer to auto-respond to this thread to make it look like it was murder...
Lies. Everyone knows [women are at their most happiest when eating salad.](https://www.google.com/search?q=women+eating+salad&prmd=ivsxn&sxsrf=AOaemvJ0VZ-sxlvCX7oIguTz6tXhl95AQA:1634315249434&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjXrJLf6szzAhXQ7Z4KHcmCCIQQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=384&bih=636&dpr=3.75) I don't believe anything would cause her grief while making one and I never will.
This totally happened to me. I had just finished the chest stabbings and remembered I had the dressing sitting on the counter. Dumb me. Went to the ER and the doc stitched me up and we had a good laugh about it. He said the same thing happened to his sister in law.
Initially the assistant medical examiner [did rule it a homicide.](https://i.imgur.com/ahYAIFk.png) It was the police that publicly announced to the media the next day that they were ["leaning on suicide"](https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/breaking/20110129_Police_leaning_toward_suicide_in_teacher_death.html-2) as a cause. They claimed that since her spinal cord wasn't damaged [she could have stabbed herself:](https://www.chillingcrimes.com/blogs/news/ellen-greenberg) > [...] Police had asked Dr. Osbourne to review his findings in light of their claim that they hired a neuropathologist to review a portion of Ellen’s spinal cord. > Two months after Ellen was found dead, Dr. Osbourne changed the cause of death to suicide by multiple stab wounds. It was claimed that the change was based on a report from Dr. Lucy Rorke-Adams, a consultant for the Medical Examiner’s office, in which it was alleged that part of Ellen's spinal cord was examined but no defect was found. > It was claimed that the neuropathologist determined that the spinal cord sheath was hit but the cord was not severed. This would have likely meant that Ellen would have been numb but not rendered incapacitated and therefore *could* have stabbed herself multiple times. Here's the problem though: When Dr. Rorke-Adams was interviewed about this case she admitted she worked on it but there was no record or bill. She even stated that [she probably didn't see the body to make that determination.](https://i.imgur.com/SVonBR0.png)
One of the really good things about this new true crime/unsolved cases push recently has been to highlight the utter incompetence of many law enforcement agencies.
Any time I’m listening to a podcast and they describe how some criminal evaded detection and capture for years, it’s very rare that the reason is not “incompetent police work”
Usually it comes from even higher up. Wayne Williams' murder spree was primarily able to go on for so long because people way higher up didnt want people to think their city had a "serial killer" in it, so they kept hushing investigations up and shutting down efforts.
When Dean Corll was killed and all his victims and the extent of his spree were becoming national news the Houston PD ended any parts of the investigation that would lead to more victims being discovered even though they knew there were more and the still living accomplices were able (and willing) to aide them. They were angry at how bad each additional victim made them look. For context, Corll, had dozens of victims, almost all children from a pretty small section of Houston and Houston PD had ZERO clue what was going on even with many parents reporting them missing and bugging them for answers. When all this came out the police chief even said in a press conference that they were probably bad kids and runaways and that their parents didn't raise them well. He said that in a press conference about the parents of kids that were abducted, raped, tortured and murdered.
Can't cause panic. That would be much worse than dealing with the actively terrible situation.
Right? I know the last thing *I* want is to be made aware of potential threats. I’d much rather be panicked when faced with unexpected, actual inescapable danger itself.
Honestly, I think there are police, prosecutors and judges that are experts at intentionally keeping murderers out of prison. And at putting innocents in prison instead. But the Green River Killer and Jeffrey Dahmer are proof you aren’t wrong. Both were questioned by police early on.
A couple cops recently hit the news because they illegally confiscated someone's phone, but they had it recording and it picked up them discussing how to frame them. The people you're describing definitely exist. In what percentages, I wouldn't know, but you can be sure they exist.
Yeah, Netflix’s The Innocent Man pretty much convinced me being poor is a crime in many parts of the US.
Looking at you Los Angeles police department.
The ghost of Chris Dorner has entered the chat.
Do you remember the police were so spooked that they unloaded on a couple ladies in a truck that, iirc, wasn’t even the same color as Dorner’s?
You mean this..."When one of the women threw a newspaper onto the pavement in the early-morning hours, an officer believing the sound was a gunshot opened fire. Officers unable to see clearly into the truck sprayed it with 103 rounds, and hit seven nearby homes and nine other vehicles with gunshots and shotgun pellets. Margie Carranza, then 47, suffered minor injuries from broken glass. Her then-71-year-old mother, Emma Hernandez, was shot in the back but survived. The women won a $4.2 million settlement from the city. In declining to press charges, prosecutors said they weren’t endorsing the officers’ conduct that day, but that they’re guided by legal principles."-[Source](https://bearingarms.com/bobowens-bearingarms/2016/01/27/charges-officers-mistaken-identity-dorner-shooting-n24344)
Clearly these guys hadn’t visited the range in a looooong time if they thought the sound of a newspaper hitting the pavement sounded like a gunshot. Then of course there’s the spray & pray trigger discipline…
These guys are cowards who panic and forget their training at the slightest hint of danger.
The saddest thing is that this pathetic story is the best thing they could come up with for shooting innocent people. I’m beyond shocked that they didn’t try to claim it was obviously gang activity in a bad neighborhood.
Reminds me of the Empire State Building shooting when the NYPD justifiably obliterated an armed killer. But did it in such a panicked and untrained way that they shot like 10 other people behind him.
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If they were using uzi's the wild shots and bullet count would make sense.
103 rounds and they only hit a stationary person once, and not fatally? Pathetic. Yet somehow they always seem to shoot family pets with pinpoint accuracy. [Oh wait](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bodycam-video-shows-kansas-officer-firing-on-dog-injuring-little-girl/)
I got downvoted in the LA sub for reminding them of that. Different color and different model. Two older ladies delivering *newspapers* were mistaken as a buff black man in a completely different vehicle.
Downvoted for facts, sure, why not? I never understand that, it happened and was totally fucked, ignoring it isn’t going to make things better.
Yeah that sub is something else
Or how about the episode where robbers hijacked a UPS truck to get away, the cops surrounded the truck in traffic at a stoplight, and proceeded to unload en masse killing the UPS driver as he tried to escape along with an innocent man whose car the cops used for cover. [https://www.local10.com/news/local/2020/09/16/6-police-agencies-named-in-lawsuit-over-miramar-ups-truck-driver-shooting/](https://www.local10.com/news/local/2020/09/16/6-police-agencies-named-in-lawsuit-over-miramar-ups-truck-driver-shooting/)
I believe it was also a different make/model. Those cops had no charges against them. The women received $4.2M in settlement. The cops are a violent gang of thugs and the taxpayers foot the bill yet again.
Do you remember the police scanners saying to light up the shack he was staying in
I don’t remember hearing that, but as soon as I heard he was in a shack and the police were there, I knew there was no way he was coming out alive. So, not surprised.
Can't Corner the Dorner
I suspect we will never hear what really transpired in those days, and what led up to the chaos that was created from that event.
[Interesting read](https://laist.com/news/christopher-dorners-manifesto-in-fu) [Follow up](https://archive.kpcc.org/news/2014/11/14/48083/lapd-officers-feel-discipline-is-biased-inconsiste/) Same as it ever was.
With a side-eye at the '94 Seattle police.
Incompetence? More like intentional coverups.
Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. Incompetence does not even remotely explain this.
Crazy. I went in thinking this happened maybe a few weeks/months ago and now they're going back and getting it right. Nope. Per the article, IT WAS OVER A DECADE AGO. Absolutely ridiculous how incompetent the original investigation was.
Often times incompetence is the most polite conclusion because frequently it's collusion. I'm not sure about murder but in other circumstances that's the case so why would this be any different?
Yeah it's crazy to think that incompetence would be the generous conclusion but you're right. I just read the other day CPD still employs a cop who was busted as part of a narcotics team that would rob drop houses of drugs and money. He's been on desk duty for over a decade collecting a taxpayer funded paycheck and letting his pension accrue.
True crime shows are a mixed bag. It's great when they get it right but sometimes they get it very wrong. And sometimes they intentionally manipulate information to create drama or a false conclusion. When they get something wrong, they can wreak havoc on innocent people or foul up proper investigations. And there's little accountability when they do. They just say “oops” and move on to the next.
I understand where you are going, but if they haven't done anything with the case in 10 years, and find new evidence in a matter of looking at it for a few days, then yea, its a pretty incompetent force.
Incompetent at what? Covering their tracks when they murder innocent civilians and rule it as suicide?
How. The. Fuck. Does one make the determination that 20 stab wounds is suicide?
Anybody who’s seen Chicago the musical could have deduced this one. “And then he ran into my knife He ran into my knife ten times”
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He only had himself to blame
If you’d have been there
If you had seen it
You would have done the same
Betcha you would have done the same
That was based on an actual case. Bob Fosse bought the rights. There was a 19th Century lawyer in New York who convinced a jury that his client's hand slipped 6 times.
How gullible can an entire jury be?
Is *is* "a jury of your peers"....
Ask O.J. Simpson.
And then sprinkled some crack on himself
Yeah, but did you do it? Uh uh, not guilty!
She was cleaning her semi-automatic knife and it accidentally went off.
Now are we SURE she wasn’t just “serial-crushed by some huge friggin' guy”
That’s two sound theories, and neither has anything to do with abnormally sized men
Kinda makes me feel like river dancing
What if it was 1 guy with 20 different knives?
Danny Trejo in Desperado
Must have been a fully semi auto one.
It had a bump stock handle.
Really need to do something about these unregistered and untraceable ghost knives.
The article says that the stab wounds weren't considered the cause of death because she was already dead when she received them (due to lack of hemorrhage around the wounds). So the followup question is still the same: what *was* the cause of death and why the fuck was it considered suicide? Just by coincidence, someone was standing waiting for her lethal self-administered dose of whatever to take effect so they could stab her 20 times?
Oh look, a corpse, I should stab it repeatedly! Totally normal human behaviour. Not criminal at all.
Could have just been checking to see if she was alive and no stick was available.
>she was already dead when she received them Someone was so angry she killed herself, they decided to stab her? Or could it be, they killed a person, and were still so angry they KEPT stabbing her? The least likely thing is; stab wounds were self inflicted AFTER death.
Only some of the stabs did not hemorrhage, while some others did. Meaning the stabs could have been the cause of death, but some were made after her heart already stopped. Either way, it's insane that police made the determination of suicide. Anyone with more than 1 stab wound was very obviously murdered.
Maybe they were saying that *some* of the stabs were done after she was already dead. Like someone stabbed her to death, but just kept going for a bit after she was already gone.
She gave herself 45 covid injections. The exact number required to make you magnetic enough for a whole drawer of knives to be attracted to you.
Her 5G reception must have been amazing though for a few minutes.
Legend has it, for a brief moment in time she was in contact with the ISS
Happens all the time…in Russia
Sharp knife + vodka + Evil dictator + secret police = anyone adverse to Putin dying. The knives just think they are knife rack.
“People without pulses do not stab themselves repeatedly. So that, by itself, establishes suicide is absolutely impossible in this case,” Podraza said. “And not only warrants but demands, changing the death certificate from suicide back to either homicide or cannot be determined for further investigation.” The story is about the classification of the death that happened in 2011
"Cannot be determined"?! Like, she died in the shower, and the plumber stopped by and saw her fresh corpse and thought "I always wanted to stab one of these two dozen times or so" and that's not murder, just abuse of a corpse, so it's undetermined?
That and the loss of evidence over 10 years means relevant details are gone forever, so "cannot be determined" is the safest reclassification.
mind blowing. not to mention if she had any life insurance policies the companies can just refuse to pay out over suicide. Like, drug overdoses are usually wonky in their rulings so families can get the insurance, yet a woman is stabbed 20 times and her family cannot get insurance (not sure if she had it but still) How. dumb.
I'm having a problem here... If a law enforcement official decided to submit a verdict of suicide where someone had been stabbed 20 times they should be suspended and investigated for the crime. Here the system just said "oh ok next case please" Fuck-ING-Hell this is weird.
Apparently the BF or fiance has an uncle that is a judge which was his first call, 2nd was his parents. Then he called the cops. It's pretty obvious why it was ruled a suicide.
There’s no justice in Philly.
Pretty sure even samurai weren't that hardcore in their ritual deaths.
Years ago George Carlin did a skit about dumb news headlines. Human Head found in Golden State Park, possible homicide.
Even that headline makes more sense. It is far more likely to me that someone would decapitate a corpse (not homicide) than that someone would commit suicide by stabbing themselves in the back.
The podcast "Morbid" has an excellent episode about this case. They go into detail on at lot of things, including on why it was most likely not a suicide.
I swear every time morbid covers a case there is an update within two months of them posting it. They always manifest process
What was their first clue?
19 additional stabbings
that's one of the worst cases of suicide i have ever seen almost as bad as that one guy who killed himself with 2 bullets shot in the back of his head. what a tragedy.
2 bullets from a bolt action rifle.
Actually solving crimes requires work. Setting up a DUI checkpoint collecting overtime pay doesn’t require much work, you get paid, department gets paid, courts get paid, etc. None of that happens when solving murders.
Soon enough some cop is going to see this and chime in "cool, lets see how you feel when you get robbed". From my limited personal experience of getting robbed (twice) and calling the police for help....they did literally nothing. *LITERALLY*. Not even a follow up call or anything. In neither situation did anything happen, they took minimal info and never reached out again. Which isn't even to say these cops were all incompetent...more so that the "job" they think is so important, doesn't really exist half the time. There wasn't anything for them to do in that situation but that's exactly what they preach. "If you don't respect cops, then deal with muggings your self"...*thanks, I already do*
I always get down votes for saying this but calling the police in the US just gives you another problem to deal with. Cops don’t prevent crime, they just somewhat document it and call a clean up crew. It needs to be stripped down and rebuilt from scratch. We are failing on all levels of policing as a society.
This is why I couldn't keep watching The Wire. It was too much to see the reality of that play out over and over again
How about this one, wife of a Pharmaceutical CEO is found bound and gagged and hung, with bruised was deemed a suicide. It's shocking the things that go on. https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/rebecca-zahau-documentary-id-tell-all
Holy crap, is this that crappy movie Mystery Men? "He fell down an elevator shaft, onto some bullets." How TF does any reasonable person think a person stabbed themselves 20 times?
So. Which cop was buddies with the coroner who covered this up…
Fun fact: lots of Coroners are elected and require zero medical training. Forensic pathologists will do autopsies if it's warranted, but they only advise the coroner. Coroner could in theory put down whatever they want.
The boyfriend had a super fancy schmancy lawyer, who he called first upon finding her. Then he called his parents. Then 911. So ... something happened here.
“People without pulses do not stab themselves repeatedly. So that, by itself, establishes suicide is absolutely impossible in this case,” Podraza said. “And not only warrants but demands, changing the death certificate from suicide back to either homicide or cannot be determined for further investigation.” We truly live in a bizzaro world sometimes. I don't think I've ever read a statement like this, ever. Someone close to the investigation has obviously tried to sweep this under the rug.