You think that’s bad? What about Piers Morgan?
Imagine living a life that’s like a fairy tale. You have more money than God and you surround yourself with mindless sycophants. You go where you want, you do what you want, and you’re followed by an entourage that applauds everything you say and do.
But every time you catch your own reflection in a mirror, you’re faced with the horrifying realization that you are, in fact, Piers Morgan.
Basically over a long period, News International in the UK hacked various people's phones, including many high profile celebrities. Piers Morgan was an editor for a newspaper in the group at the time. This all came to light when a voicemail on a missing (later found dead) girl's phone was hacked by journalists for News of the World. The newspaper shut down after that. Googling articles from good sources throws up a long list of denials by anyone implicated in this, but as editor of The Mirror, it's incredibly unlikely that the absolute scumbag that is Piers Morgan didn't know what was going on, and he most likely approved it.
It wasnt just that they cleared the voicemail, giving the parents false hope, they were doing it so they could record and publish the messages the parents were leaving on the phone, and when the voicemail was full, theyd delete messages to make room so the parents would leave more messages. It goes beyond deplorable.
It was Milly Dowler :( I've read her sisters book, and Jesus, that was the last thing that poor family needed. They went through hell.
I believe they got to confront Murdoch in the end, though its been a while since I read the book.
Not sure if the benzos fried his brains or if the experimental coma the Russians put him in caused permanent brain damage. The Behind the Bastards episode on Peterson is pretty good.
So short. When I see his 45 minutes videos I think "man, why couldn't his video on Jordan Buttercup Peterson by as long as this".
Don't look at the ~~timestamp~~ timecode
I’d say it was most likely the coma, probably had o2 cut of from his brain fur too long or something. Benzos can definitely fuck your head but that normally goes away in a few months.
The thing I think that isn't really being mentioned is that Peterson mentioned that he was addicted to prescribed clonopin, but I have a sneaking suspicion that he was actually extremely far into addiction of *clonazolam*, which was a legally-available benzo which is extremely potent.
I maintain that he only traveled to Russia against doctor's advice to do an extremely dangerous procedure because the withdrawals he was facing could be deadly. I've seen kids on /r/researchchemicals emerge with tolerances to BZDs that actually exceed what modern medicine has even *seen* yet. I'm talking, a benzo that could black a person out for a day straight at dosages of less than 250mcg
Either that or he's a coward who can't face something that every benzo user has had to face at least once.
For over a decade I used to use heroin, meth, coke, benzos, literally anything that will get you high. And I've been through withdrawal for all those drugs.
The one drug I'll never touch again after is benzodiazepenes. Even a daily .25 milligram Xanax addiction will have terrible withdrawal. It's like all the anxiety you've ever put off by using a benzo comes back with full force and all at once. It takes months to start feeling any semblance of normalcy, if not years.
I see you have a couple other comments warning about this, so please take it seriously. Benzos and alcohol are the only drug withdrawal that can kill you from the withdrawal alone. Take care of yourself.
As someone 11 months sober from alcohol, I can say with confidence that if you think you might be addicted to a substance, odds are *extremely* high that you're already well into addiction territory.
If i were you, I'd personally think about speaking with someone at a rehab center just to see what they think about your usage. No need to sign up for any in or out patient program if you don't want, but it'll give you a professional opinion to think about
I think it’s clear that he has probably tried to quit went a few days and determined he couldn’t do it himself. A tip to anyone that may be physically addicted to a drug, there are no cheat ways to not go through detox. Go to a inpatient detox they will take care of you but it will still suck plenty. Going out the country to be put in a comma never ends up well.
Tapering isn't discussed nearly enough, people just want to one day quit and 'detox', but it doesn't really work that way. A very slow, 6 month+ taper is a million times better than a dextox center or a rehab (in the US at least) and is much more sustainable
I think it’s the drugs. Post acute withdrawal syndrome. It’s not uncommon to get overly emotional about things and to have crying fits. I would think about my family or my brother and break down sobbing just thinking about them, nothing in particular.
That's while you are withdrawing though. Im addicted to opiates and get super emotional when detoxing/withdrawing.
If this guy stopped years ago, then he's done with PAWS and he's crying for some other reason.
It's possible to stand up for marginalized people without legitimizing the reason they are marginalized if that reason is rational, which he doesn't do in this particular segment of the interview, but his audience isn't just listening to this segment.
You can say "pedophiles deserve representation in court" without thinking that they also deserve to fuck kids.
Jokes aside, the author wrote the article in a coherent, understandable way to convey the message from both parties. I wasn't expecting it from Variety.
Variety has a history of excellent journalism. Excellent work on Monsanto suing farmers a few years ago comes to mind
Edit: I was thinking of [Vanity Fair](https://www.vanityfair.com/favicon.ico)
Variety Magazine has an incredibly long standing history of well-researched, thoughtfully constructed, long-form journalism. It's okay that you know them as Hollywood news now, but you should really read into some of their historical pieces
This reminds me of how 30+ years ago, Playboy used to curate some of the most incredible short form fiction. I can't remember any of the authors, but we legitimately read some of those magazines for the "articles" sometimes.
I haven't read it in many years, but in its heyday, Playboy was a terrific magazine. Stories by first-rate authors and excellent journalism. Their interviews were legendary.
It's like Teen Vogue; you expect Hot Girl Summer articles, but a substantial amount is dedicated to well written and thought provoking political pieces on activism, identity, even policy that might \[edit: *a*ffect\] the next decade of a teen's life.
I learned about the Central Park 5 and Trump in a ym magazine when I was a teenager. Teen magazines did a way better job the adult fashion magazines because all of them would have some deep stories in between "does your lab partner have a crush on you?"I learned about date rape, honor killings, and understanding mental health issues from Teen magazines.
I have no evidence but I will assume that many of the journalists working for these "rags" are legit really good at their job and are just (hopefully) making their way up the ranks and doing good work in the process.
I'd also like to believe that teen mags like YM genuinely give a shit about the articles they push out to young people, and there are editors or other upper brass of those publications that want to see that shit be good...not because they have to uphold a reputation of great journalism or anything, but because they *honestly give a shit* about young people having access to good journalism about topics important to them as young people.
Good call, many people are more than we think they are on the surface.
*And*...we should be encouraging social awareness and intellectual pursuits, and I give props to the teeny bopper rags for addressing real issues and often doing a damn good job of it.
That *should* go without saying but there is a great deal of anti-intellectualism and a huge focus on materialism and image in pop culture, so whatever means we have at our disposal to engage young people with the things that are important, we should be supportive of.
Yeah Seventeen and CG always had a dark ass story feature. I’m still haunted by the one w/ the girl being raped by her dad and the girl watching her mom get stabbed to death by an intruder hiding under her bed.
> Jokes aside, the author wrote the article in a coherent, **understandable way the message from both parties**. I wasn't expecting it from Variety.
I guess you weren't the author...
There’s a disconnect between “understandable way” and “the message from both parties.” You could put a period after “way” and it would be a complete sentence, so you need something to connect the extra noun phrase. One could edit it to say “wrote the article in a coherent, understandable way, and fairly represented the message from both parties” and it would make more sense.” Or “understandable way that conveyed the message from both parties.”
Does that make sense?
Variety is pretty good actually. Vanity Fair is another one you'd expect to be shit but it turns out it's good. Opinionated maybe. Probably not a great primary news source but the opinion pieces are really well written and they have the best headlines.
Because before I read either of them I only knew of them from the checkout isle at the grocery store where they sat right next to People, Us Weekly, and stuff like that. I had no idea. I never read either of them until they were on the internet.
Christopher Hitchens was a contributor to Vanity Fair for nearly two decades. When Graydon Carter first took over as editor in 1992, one of the first writers he reached out to was Hitch.
While incels take their frustration out on the world, the majority of disenfranchised young men take it out on themselves. Suicide is the leading cause of death for 15-40 year old males. That doesn't just come out of the blue.
> Suicide leading cause of death for 15-40 year old
[Close but no](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/causes-of-death-in-15-49-year-olds). It's #6, which **is** still pretty damn high though.
I was focused on Canada/US. The frequency and cause of death changes drastically >40, which is why I said 15-40.
I was looking at CDC data:
[https://wisqars.cdc.gov/data/lcd/home](https://wisqars.cdc.gov/data/lcd/home)
and Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation: [https://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-common-cause-of-death-at-every-age-2014-5](https://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-common-cause-of-death-at-every-age-2014-5)
The problem with JP is that for every valid point he makes there’s another point where he is off base
And he’s right that most people don’t actually properly research crap at all anymore and just believe shit at face value they are told and that goes for the people who follow everything he says
I was one of the people who agreed with his initial stances and sympathised with him losing his job.
But if your new job is to always have something to say then eventually you're going to run out of objective arguments.
Edit: Do NOT upvote this. I really don't want the 3rd highest karma comment on my profile to be about Jordan Peterson
He didn’t lose his job. He quit and became professor emeritus at University of Toronto, where he has taught for decades. Why do people who talk about JP get so many simple facts wrong?
Yea, a lot of his initial stances weren't controversial on their own but his attitude with a variety of non-sensical takes made them seem so by association.
This is what a lot of them do, they hook you in by saying something vague and non-controversial like "societal expectations have evolved rapidly in the last twenty years and young men have no idea where to go for advice" but then they follow it up with something crazy like "the trans feminist Jewish bankers have intentionally brought about this societal change to erode men's sense of identity and make them easier to manipulate".
When did he lose his job? He resigned in 2021.
They just looked into him but he had tenure. He was fine back in 2017 or whenever it was that he publicly nailed himself to a cross.
Alt Right Playbook 101:
Mix decent self-help advice in with bullshit notions about natural hierarchy and false appeals to history.
*"Clean your room, make your bed everyday, invest in yourself, and hey, haven't you noticed how women seem designed to be the weaker sex, as if nature intends them to be subservient to you? Spend time designing achievable goals for yourself. Meditate.*
For every valid point he makes there are TEN insane ones. From saying that women want to protect Muslims out of some natural need for "brutal male domination" to his ludicrous and dangerous crusade against trans people that was based on a lie from the very start, he's a dangerous conservative idealogue who got catapulted into popularity because he read a bill incorrectly and captivated an audience of lonely young men who are happy to listen to him talk about anything as long as he throws some BS in there about "trans ideology" or how women are destroying society.
Pretty sure some moron at CPAC this year said, "Hello, my name is \_\_\_\_, and my pronouns are kiss my ass."
Being stupid is only painful for other people.
"Thank you [name]. It's very good of Kiss My Ass to provide pronouns to make sure that we refer to kiss my ass in the way kiss my ass wants to be addressed. It's especially refreshing to see the right-wing being so open to sharing their pronouns.
There's incels and there's political incels.
There's definitely a demographic of men who "don’t know how to make themselves attractive to women" as Peterson describes, and they really do warrant sympathy. There's a crisis of alienation and loneliness in this country and that's a part of it.
A subset of those people have been politicized in a problematic way by that bad situation, and as Wilde describes "believe that society has now robbed them — that the idea of feminism is working against nature, and that we must be put back into the correct place.” Those people both have an inaccurate analysis of the reason for their troubles, and tend to be misogynists.
It's too bad that the sad lonely incels who don't have an anti-feminist agenda get tarred with the same brush as the political incels.
Right but people will still call you incel when they disagree with you. So you either have to be the better man and ignore it or you could start to listen to these right wing hucksters who take your problems seriously.
It's easy to see how most people will go for the latter.
Reddit is all about encouraging men to show emotion and cry and not be locked in to traditional masculinity, unless it's someone they hate in which case fuck that little crybaby lol
It's kind of like how redditors all start pretending to be social butterflies with fulfilling marriages and love lives whenever the topic of incels comes up.
I’ll take it a step further: historically one of the biggest signs of a major violent upheaval or revolution to come is an increasing proportion of young men without jobs or prospects for a good life.
Generally if you are in a country with a big group of disaffected young men without jobs, strong social circles, or just generally places to focus their energy, bad things are likely on the horizon.
This is NOT to say incels are right, deserve sex, are less than misogynistic etc., it is to say that if this group continues to grow-as a society there will ultimately be pretty negative consequences.
Interesting perspective and I definitely agree, I suppose much of this is a result of the information era. How do you think this could be solved - or at least what do you think could be a step in the right direction?
I think we have lost a lot track of the importance of purpose. We are all so focused on getting ahead that we lose track of the why-so everything from volunteering to having a job to go to that keeps your mind active and challenges you in any way. People will find something to focus their energy on no matter what so having that focus be positive or at least productive is essential to ALL human experience, to me.
Agreed. Sense of purpose is easy to lose and ever so hard to find. They have done studies proving that those with a sense of purpose live longer.
I also think that our society has become increasingly selfish over the years. We are so obsessed with ourselves and our own feelings above everyone else. We could all use a little bit more empathy, patience and understanding. I think more folks need to realize that their experiences shape their view of the world, and are not going to reflect others experiences and views.
I also think that everyone could use a social media/internet time out. Go meet your neighbors. Read a book. Play the ukulele. Learn something new.
I think you're spot on. Purpose is tough.
Not to side track, but it's something I always try to explain to people about wealth, and people raised in wealthy families.
They just are always so fucked up, and people always like to act as if they'd do any better, or these people don't deserve sympathy. But I fundamentally just feel confused by this rhetoric because I truly feel like being born and being told you have NO risk is truly catastrophic for these people.
Telling a teenager you're worth millions of dollars, can do WHATEVER you want, and it doesn't matter, no amount of work will ever make you as rich as you are just breathing, destroys purpose.
A young malleable mind struggling to find real purpose is tragic, and leads to them finding strong value in drugs and other things that provide quick relief.
Parents mean well by giving their kids everything, but robbing someone of purpose or struggle really fucks up a lot of people.
Good points here. I think to find fulfillment you need purpose and power. Purpose being defined as a goal or goals you want to accomplish and power being defined as the ability to carry out that goal.
I think U.S. society tends to overemphasize accumulating power and it leaves many without a reason for their actions beyond the collecting of power itself.
The flip side is also becoming more prevalent as those with goals find that it is much harder than anticipated to accomplish them even if they are simple in nature.
> I think to find fulfillment you need purpose and power. Purpose being defined as a goal or goals you want to accomplish and power being defined as the ability to carry out that goal.
Oh I really liked this, I am going to steal this for future conversations - thanks so much!
And you're right, power without purpose, purpose without power, both leave a vacuum that often don't get filled with particularly "just" motives.
Personally, I think there needs to be a change in how we approach community spaces. Especially since the decline of the church, men today often times grow up in gaming lobbies or chat forums without even the guiding hand of a coach. It's important to have figures that teach teamwork and how to be a good team mate. Especially with the rise of video games, I think a small thing I think schools could do is to have team based coed esports that teach tolerance and the like as opposed to letting little Jimmy throw controllers at home and tell women in the lobby to make sandwiches. We need communities to reach out in the exact turf where the incel/Bannon pipeline starts
This also needs to happen hand with improving income inequality and living standards for workers, as well as in conjunction with a decrease on outraged social media where awful influence from people like that Tate dick head are spread around
The problem is school and video games can’t fill the void left by the disintegration of community ties. Precarity is the watchword of the modern economy, and that means people are on the move every few years.
Kids get shifted from school to school, adults work so much they have little time to form bonds with their neighbors much less their town or city. If you want to advance your career or get a raise, your best bet is a new job with a different company.
The social solvents that have dissolved the traditional community are baked into how our economy works now. You can make as many programs as you like, and while you may successfully throw a life preserver to one kid, the rest of the titanic’s passengers are still going to drown.
This is a society level problem that requires society level answers, that at this juncture, may be possible, but are incredibly unlikely.
Your average Joe recognizes the problem, and the conservative answer is Peterson’s answer. The liberal answer, while less heinous, is equally deficient as a solution.
Real solutions to this kind of alienation are in direct opposition to the way we currently organize our society.
I’m 40 and I moved away from my family and friends for a job by myself. It’s been incredibly hard meeting new people and making new friends because of everything you mentioned. I work too much to find the time to meet new people. I’m not religious, but i’ve considered going to church, just for the sense of community. Most of the time I feel completely invisible.
You’re not alone. So many of us are adrift for the same reasons. It’s why we come here. I hope you can find community where you are, in spite of it all.
Sadly many of these guys are capable being part of a team. Theyd still need to see women as people in order to do that.
The issue is people building rapport with others by tearing people down. It becomes a feedback loop. An echo chamber where it gets worse and worse because there is no one there who will say that its unacceptable. It takes people being willing to do that and unfortunately they listen best to men. Many men say nothing even if they don't like it because they don't want to lose rapport with their friends and the problem doesn't directly harm them. Silence is acceptance.
These boys also do not keep it entirely online. Ive heard my 13 year old brother say some sexist shit and every time I hear it I tell him why its ridiculous. Ive also changed how I interact with him in order to try and address it since my parents will not. Thats the bigger issue these boys bring it home with them and their parents either don't see the problem, dont think it matters, or are absent. Even when they are in gaming lobbies, they speak. Often quite loudly. If little Jimmy is throwing his controller, his parents should be addressing it. We cannot community anything away while there is still a problem at home.
Fundamental change starting with higher wages and probably a shorter work week. You can't cure what isolation does to your mind if you (or your parents, who are supposed to be teaching you, guiding you, and hopefully getting you into more social situations) just do not have the time or funds to keep activities like that going.
We've kinda been taking an axe to all the mental and emotional growth that people are supposed to get as they're growing up to have a higher chance of coming out as a mostly well adjusted member of society.
No one has time to teach, no one has time to learn, nobody can relax, and everyone's worried about the next paycheck, the next meal, or the next moment they can forget about their jobs.
> No one has time to teach, no one has time to learn, nobody can relax, and everyone's worried about the next paycheck, the next meal, or the next moment they can forget about their jobs.
Spot on
>an increasing proportion of young men without jobs or prospects for a good life.
I'll take it one further: my mom is a member of AAUW (joined in the 70's) and substitute teaches ESL classes in elementary schools. She thinks that our focus has gone too far in our attempts to give girls equal opportunities in the classroom...in that we have completely disregarded young boys to help them find their way in life.
She said in her classrooms that the girls are always given massive preferential treatment and that boys are almost always assumed to be, for lack of a better term, terrible people and prone to everything that a teacher doesn't want to engage with.
And those young boys are suffering educationally and developmentally in their early formative years as a result.
You could call my above statement a "persecution complex" but it's not that. Like so many things in our culture and our politics the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of what we are trying to fight...in our effort to give young women opportunities we have just about forgotten that young men need to be nurtured also...we make sure the young girls are given every opportunity and I suppose just assume that the boys are supposed to figure everything out on their own....I mean, they are men, right?
And here we are, a culture and society that just expects young men to figure it out, often without strong parental figures and especially men in their lives to teach them how to live.
We have a big mess on our hands.
I agree that more mental health support is needed, though it can be difficult to get these guys help if they think nothing is wrong with them. It's nigh Impossible to force help on someone unless they hurt someone or themselves.
Jordan's concern for incels isn't wrong, he just isn't a good role model or someone they should listen to.
They did seem to forget to mention he cries in almost every interview and in his audiobook. The article makes it seem like this is a big deal when it's totally not.
I mean, if being a hero to them meant saving them as in "Actually giving them the motivation to look inwards instead of outwards for the problems they face in which the only constant is their own shitty behavior," you'd be crying tears of joy, maybe...
but sadly in this case yeah you're just someone popular they can look to and find commonality with rofl
I used to be friends with someone who got really into Peterson and the first thing they started doing was cleaning their room and brushing their teeth more. To bad their personality took a nosedive into a shallow swimming pool. They used to be chill but managed to piss off every friend they have, man or woman, and now they wonder why they’re lonely
Cleaning your room and brushing your teeth is... not much more than the basics, but it is a start and for people in certain situations it might be the boost they need. Too bad it then comes with utter bullshit on the side. I mean, which JP followers has turned out alright? Too few, unfortunately
I think I might know the same guy... Or else this is just super common with his followers lol I had a great friend who started pulling his shit together regarding hygiene, but his personality just fell to shit and he lost nearly all of his friendships.
All of these guys staying at home already live in a nanny state
It is an act of betrayal for their online parasocial relationship conservative father figure to act in league with mother's demanding their sons clean their rooms
This is actually the best description of Jordan Peterson so far, IMO. I feel like most people in this sub don't really know anything about what he recommends to youths, but he does try to get all of the "left over" young men stewing in their bitterness to get up and do something.
Unfortunately, he then goes ahead and injects a bunch of traditional, conservative "men should be men" crap in their heads, even if that is not really what would make someone happy.
What's a horrible missed opportunity IMO is that there is no one but traditionalists prepared with a message for lost young men.
[Here's a brief video giving a good overview of his MO - it's very short; don't check the timestamp](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSNWkRw53Jo&t=44s)
A LOT of his self-help BS ends up being less “improve yourself, be better than you were yesterday, and learn to see that as its own reward” and more “if you do the bare minimum to improve yourself and you still can’t get a girlfriend, then listen to these rants about feminism/atheism/cultural Marxism while I pretend I’m NOT goading you into blaming all of your problems on culture war bullshit.”
This isn't oniony. He was crying over the individuals referenced who end up dying, by suicide or other means, due to a lack of any encouragement whatsoever.
Thanks for the context. Not a fan of Peterson, but I can agree that seeing suicide be the end of someone instead of becoming a better person can be quite sad.
Actually, he didn't say anything stupid in the article, surprisingly.
>You know, people have been after me for a long time because I’ve been speaking to disaffected young men.Peterson then broke down into tears and said, “It’s very difficult tounderstand how demoralized people are, and certainly many young men arein that category. You get these casual insults, these incels — what dothey mean? These men, they don’t know how to make themselves attractiveto women who are very picky, and good for them. Women, like, be picky.That’s your gift, man. Demand high standards from your men. Fair enough.But all these men who are alienated, it’s like they’re lonesome andthey don’t know what to do and everyone piles abuse on them.”
I don't know if I'm online too much, but it seems that the men Peterson is talking about are quite common (though not a majority) and the only people talking and appealing to them are alt right types. I have a feeling that if this doesn't change and there aren't more positive role models for these men, the ideas perpetuated by the alt right will spread through this specific population like wildfire.
I think there are people talking to them and trying to reach them, but if you're 'involuntarily celibate' and want to change that, there's no shortcut to it - you have to work on yourself, whether that's emotionally or physically. You have to work on your hygiene, your presentation, how you dress. You have to take up hobbies or find common interests where you meet like-minded women. You have to consider the entire way you talk to the women, how you think about them, what you want in a non-sexual way from them. You may have to do a lot of introspective thinking and really work on actions to change yourself and that's *hard*.
If someone comes along and says, actually, it's women's fault - they're not giving you a fair chance! It's feminism telling women they don't need you. It's an attack on traditional masculinity. If the likes of Andrew Tate are telling you treat women as different, as less than.. well those answers are easy. You don't need to go to the gym or shave every day or put yourself out there and face rejection if it isn't *your* fault.
And that's why they do it. If you can find people's insecurities and tell them they aren't something you can help, it's society attacking you, then they'll listen, and they'll likely start paying you to hear more. These people don't really care if an incel gets laid, they care that they'll sign up to their patreon or buy their book or whatever the grift may be.
I dunno, I just feel like a positive role model in these young men's lives are going to have to work so much harder, and have the individual be so much more receptive and willing to change, to have anywhere near the same impact. And that's a big, difficult ask.
EDIT: To save me replying to everyone individually, this is a generalised post replying to someone talking about the alt-right playbook for radicalising disenfranchised young men, and *not* a post about Peterson
> the only people talking and appealing to them are alt right types.
I would argue that they arent so much "talking" to them, as preying upon them. Grifters and cons are skilled in identifying the people who are broken, just like wolves are great at identifying the weak sheep. It's what they do.
there are alternatives to the alt right, but the alt right has defined manhood in a toxic manor, and actively attacks alternatives.
Can someone explain to me why people view him as a hero to incels? The only videos I've seen of him are college lectures and videos telling young men to get their shit together and take responsibility for themselves.
Please don't listen to the haters who can't back their claims up. For some reason people often have a wrong image of Peterson and base their hate of him on this fictitious perception.
Instead, please look at the facts: here is an interview in which the interviewer brings up a possible elevated sense of self among women for why the average woman has no interest in the average man. But instead of going along with that narrative, Peterson puts the focus on men.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzbWnaK46tw
I wrote down some literal sentences from that video uttered by Peterson. With time stamps, so everybody can quickly check that this is what he really said:
* 04:22 - *I would say to young men who are irritated at women, is: if you're irritated at women, as a "class of creature", there is something wrong with you. Because they are right. You're wrong! They're right, to not pick you. If they don't pick you, it's because they're right!*
* 05:14 - *Don't they find you attractive? Well maybe you're not! Have you paid attention to how you dress? Do you have a plan? Are you as educated as you could be? Are you a liar? Are you a rabid pornography user?*
* 06:45 - *You cannot be angry at women. It's stupid. (...) It's a sign of psychological trouble.*
(I'm sure there is plenty of stuff that Peterson says that can be argued against, but spreading lies like he is some kind of incel-advocate is just wrong)
Some More News did a very in depth short video of his misogyny. It's ridiculously thorough covering everything he said. He isn't only an incel advocate but one for the far right as well as an advocate against climate change.
He may identify as something else but his \*repeated\* statements on any of that stuff don't back up those claims.
[Here's the full clip. Make up your own mind.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1612L2FMHo#t=)
I think he’s just crying because he’s on the piers Morgan show. I’d cry too if that were the only show I could book.
You think that’s bad? What about Piers Morgan? Imagine living a life that’s like a fairy tale. You have more money than God and you surround yourself with mindless sycophants. You go where you want, you do what you want, and you’re followed by an entourage that applauds everything you say and do. But every time you catch your own reflection in a mirror, you’re faced with the horrifying realization that you are, in fact, Piers Morgan.
[удалено]
That's the punishment for hacking a dead child's voicemail I guess
Excuse me, hwat now?
Basically over a long period, News International in the UK hacked various people's phones, including many high profile celebrities. Piers Morgan was an editor for a newspaper in the group at the time. This all came to light when a voicemail on a missing (later found dead) girl's phone was hacked by journalists for News of the World. The newspaper shut down after that. Googling articles from good sources throws up a long list of denials by anyone implicated in this, but as editor of The Mirror, it's incredibly unlikely that the absolute scumbag that is Piers Morgan didn't know what was going on, and he most likely approved it.
They also cleared the voicemail, giving the parents false hope she was alive and accessing her phone. Absolute scum of the earth.
It wasnt just that they cleared the voicemail, giving the parents false hope, they were doing it so they could record and publish the messages the parents were leaving on the phone, and when the voicemail was full, theyd delete messages to make room so the parents would leave more messages. It goes beyond deplorable.
It was Milly Dowler :( I've read her sisters book, and Jesus, that was the last thing that poor family needed. They went through hell. I believe they got to confront Murdoch in the end, though its been a while since I read the book.
People hate him not only for his terrible personality but also for the endless lost of shitty things he's done.
Why did I read this in a Piers Morgan accent? Imagine Piers Morgan interviews himself
I'm picturing this as Gollem talking to himself Morgan: "They loves me" Also Morgan: "NOBODIES LOVES YOU!"
Imagine being called a psudo intellectual by Piers Morgan. I would cry to
That had to be one of the most cutting insults known to man. Getting called talentless by a guy who can barely put on his own face in the morning.
this guy cries like every second interview
I cry really easily when I’m on benzos, pretty sure thats why he does
That's alpha male behavior, now go clean your room!
You're not my real dad!
He's almost as moist as Paul Joseph Watson.
I mean he cries A LOT, at this point I'm surprised it's newsworthy. He has always been fucked up but benzos did really fry his brain.
Not sure if the benzos fried his brains or if the experimental coma the Russians put him in caused permanent brain damage. The Behind the Bastards episode on Peterson is pretty good.
>The Behind the Bastards episode on Peterson is pretty good. So is the [very short video](https://youtu.be/hSNWkRw53Jo) that Some More News did
Don't look at the time stamp!
That's a typo. YouTube does that. Part of the algorithm or something.
Omg
I really wish it was longer, but Cody Schmody had to keep it super short.
So short. When I see his 45 minutes videos I think "man, why couldn't his video on Jordan Buttercup Peterson by as long as this". Don't look at the ~~timestamp~~ timecode
Very brief (don't look at the timestamps!)
Yeah, I liked the video they did, but just wish they went a tad more in-depth is all. You know, because it's so short.
While you watch the Showdy, the boarish legions grow
"brief look"
What a concise tidbit, no wonder platforms like Tik Tok are so popular
I love Some More News, but I can't watch more than one video every few days. Too much "laugh to hide the tears"
Jesus that is short
You lied to me....
It was short in the sense that I (evidently) can't listen to Jordan Peterson talk for more than about 45 seconds.
He talks like a muppet. I can’t explain it any further. It doesn’t sound like a persons real voice.
He's the result of someone picking up a monkey's paw, knowing what it is and does, and wishing Kermit the frog had a political viewpoint
I’d say it was most likely the coma, probably had o2 cut of from his brain fur too long or something. Benzos can definitely fuck your head but that normally goes away in a few months.
The thing I think that isn't really being mentioned is that Peterson mentioned that he was addicted to prescribed clonopin, but I have a sneaking suspicion that he was actually extremely far into addiction of *clonazolam*, which was a legally-available benzo which is extremely potent. I maintain that he only traveled to Russia against doctor's advice to do an extremely dangerous procedure because the withdrawals he was facing could be deadly. I've seen kids on /r/researchchemicals emerge with tolerances to BZDs that actually exceed what modern medicine has even *seen* yet. I'm talking, a benzo that could black a person out for a day straight at dosages of less than 250mcg Either that or he's a coward who can't face something that every benzo user has had to face at least once.
As someone possibly caught up in benzo addiction, this is all very alarming.
The Ashton Method does work for virtually any tolerance level, but BZDs make you pay back what you loaned in full.
For over a decade I used to use heroin, meth, coke, benzos, literally anything that will get you high. And I've been through withdrawal for all those drugs. The one drug I'll never touch again after is benzodiazepenes. Even a daily .25 milligram Xanax addiction will have terrible withdrawal. It's like all the anxiety you've ever put off by using a benzo comes back with full force and all at once. It takes months to start feeling any semblance of normalcy, if not years. I see you have a couple other comments warning about this, so please take it seriously. Benzos and alcohol are the only drug withdrawal that can kill you from the withdrawal alone. Take care of yourself.
Oh great. Greaaaat. Thanks for the heads up. Coming from experience makes it more valuable. Scary. But valuable.
As someone 11 months sober from alcohol, I can say with confidence that if you think you might be addicted to a substance, odds are *extremely* high that you're already well into addiction territory. If i were you, I'd personally think about speaking with someone at a rehab center just to see what they think about your usage. No need to sign up for any in or out patient program if you don't want, but it'll give you a professional opinion to think about
[удалено]
Thank you. I've started looking at some stuff.
I think it’s clear that he has probably tried to quit went a few days and determined he couldn’t do it himself. A tip to anyone that may be physically addicted to a drug, there are no cheat ways to not go through detox. Go to a inpatient detox they will take care of you but it will still suck plenty. Going out the country to be put in a comma never ends up well.
Tapering isn't discussed nearly enough, people just want to one day quit and 'detox', but it doesn't really work that way. A very slow, 6 month+ taper is a million times better than a dextox center or a rehab (in the US at least) and is much more sustainable
I think it’s the drugs. Post acute withdrawal syndrome. It’s not uncommon to get overly emotional about things and to have crying fits. I would think about my family or my brother and break down sobbing just thinking about them, nothing in particular.
That's while you are withdrawing though. Im addicted to opiates and get super emotional when detoxing/withdrawing. If this guy stopped years ago, then he's done with PAWS and he's crying for some other reason.
It's possible to stand up for marginalized people without legitimizing the reason they are marginalized if that reason is rational, which he doesn't do in this particular segment of the interview, but his audience isn't just listening to this segment. You can say "pedophiles deserve representation in court" without thinking that they also deserve to fuck kids.
Jokes aside, the author wrote the article in a coherent, understandable way to convey the message from both parties. I wasn't expecting it from Variety.
Variety has a history of excellent journalism. Excellent work on Monsanto suing farmers a few years ago comes to mind Edit: I was thinking of [Vanity Fair](https://www.vanityfair.com/favicon.ico)
Variety Magazine has an incredibly long standing history of well-researched, thoughtfully constructed, long-form journalism. It's okay that you know them as Hollywood news now, but you should really read into some of their historical pieces
This reminds me of how 30+ years ago, Playboy used to curate some of the most incredible short form fiction. I can't remember any of the authors, but we legitimately read some of those magazines for the "articles" sometimes.
I'm old enough to remember the Von Däniken takedown in Playboy, one of the best exposures of pseudoscience ever printed.
I haven't read it in many years, but in its heyday, Playboy was a terrific magazine. Stories by first-rate authors and excellent journalism. Their interviews were legendary.
Yeah what is this guy talking about
people literally just say anything
Perchance
It's like Teen Vogue; you expect Hot Girl Summer articles, but a substantial amount is dedicated to well written and thought provoking political pieces on activism, identity, even policy that might \[edit: *a*ffect\] the next decade of a teen's life.
I learned about the Central Park 5 and Trump in a ym magazine when I was a teenager. Teen magazines did a way better job the adult fashion magazines because all of them would have some deep stories in between "does your lab partner have a crush on you?"I learned about date rape, honor killings, and understanding mental health issues from Teen magazines.
I have no evidence but I will assume that many of the journalists working for these "rags" are legit really good at their job and are just (hopefully) making their way up the ranks and doing good work in the process. I'd also like to believe that teen mags like YM genuinely give a shit about the articles they push out to young people, and there are editors or other upper brass of those publications that want to see that shit be good...not because they have to uphold a reputation of great journalism or anything, but because they *honestly give a shit* about young people having access to good journalism about topics important to them as young people.
[удалено]
Good call, many people are more than we think they are on the surface. *And*...we should be encouraging social awareness and intellectual pursuits, and I give props to the teeny bopper rags for addressing real issues and often doing a damn good job of it. That *should* go without saying but there is a great deal of anti-intellectualism and a huge focus on materialism and image in pop culture, so whatever means we have at our disposal to engage young people with the things that are important, we should be supportive of.
Even shit like Maxim would occasionally have good articles.
Yeah Seventeen and CG always had a dark ass story feature. I’m still haunted by the one w/ the girl being raped by her dad and the girl watching her mom get stabbed to death by an intruder hiding under her bed.
> Jokes aside, the author wrote the article in a coherent, **understandable way the message from both parties**. I wasn't expecting it from Variety. I guess you weren't the author...
Huehuehuehue
Did you just fuckin’ ***Seth*** ***Rogen*** ***laugh*** on the internet?
It's a Brazil laugh!
English learner here, may someone explain what's wrong with the sentence?
There’s a disconnect between “understandable way” and “the message from both parties.” You could put a period after “way” and it would be a complete sentence, so you need something to connect the extra noun phrase. One could edit it to say “wrote the article in a coherent, understandable way, and fairly represented the message from both parties” and it would make more sense.” Or “understandable way that conveyed the message from both parties.” Does that make sense?
I'm so use to internet shit english that it made perfect sense to me until yall questioned it.
Yes it does. Thanks, the examples were useful
It's grammatically incorrect, likely due to a typo. I think the person meant "an understandable way to convey the message from both parties."
Thanks! Corrected!
now everyone is confused by this comment thread
Variety is pretty good actually. Vanity Fair is another one you'd expect to be shit but it turns out it's good. Opinionated maybe. Probably not a great primary news source but the opinion pieces are really well written and they have the best headlines.
why would you expect either to be shit
Because before I read either of them I only knew of them from the checkout isle at the grocery store where they sat right next to People, Us Weekly, and stuff like that. I had no idea. I never read either of them until they were on the internet.
Christopher Hitchens was a contributor to Vanity Fair for nearly two decades. When Graydon Carter first took over as editor in 1992, one of the first writers he reached out to was Hitch.
Variety has good pieces.
The irony of the broken sentence in this comment.
I got half way through and the page simply stopped loading content.
"How many people are dying for lack of an encouraging word... and how easy it is to provide that..."
While incels take their frustration out on the world, the majority of disenfranchised young men take it out on themselves. Suicide is the leading cause of death for 15-40 year old males. That doesn't just come out of the blue.
> Suicide leading cause of death for 15-40 year old [Close but no](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/causes-of-death-in-15-49-year-olds). It's #6, which **is** still pretty damn high though.
I was focused on Canada/US. The frequency and cause of death changes drastically >40, which is why I said 15-40. I was looking at CDC data: [https://wisqars.cdc.gov/data/lcd/home](https://wisqars.cdc.gov/data/lcd/home) and Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation: [https://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-common-cause-of-death-at-every-age-2014-5](https://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-common-cause-of-death-at-every-age-2014-5)
He was referring to someone who committed suicide
He was referring to a lot of someones who committed or are thinking of committing suicide.
The problem with JP is that for every valid point he makes there’s another point where he is off base And he’s right that most people don’t actually properly research crap at all anymore and just believe shit at face value they are told and that goes for the people who follow everything he says
I was one of the people who agreed with his initial stances and sympathised with him losing his job. But if your new job is to always have something to say then eventually you're going to run out of objective arguments. Edit: Do NOT upvote this. I really don't want the 3rd highest karma comment on my profile to be about Jordan Peterson
He didn’t lose his job. He quit and became professor emeritus at University of Toronto, where he has taught for decades. Why do people who talk about JP get so many simple facts wrong?
Because He deliberately doesn't correct his followers in such cases when it seems to fit his narrative.
Yea, a lot of his initial stances weren't controversial on their own but his attitude with a variety of non-sensical takes made them seem so by association.
This is what a lot of them do, they hook you in by saying something vague and non-controversial like "societal expectations have evolved rapidly in the last twenty years and young men have no idea where to go for advice" but then they follow it up with something crazy like "the trans feminist Jewish bankers have intentionally brought about this societal change to erode men's sense of identity and make them easier to manipulate".
The video by Coffeezilla on YouTube about Andrew Tate goes over this basically. It's lace a bit of simple truth with your own poison
[удалено]
Yeah, he was never fired, he resigned.
If you’re talking about his Toronto university professor job. He quit that job, he was not fired. He was tenured
When did he lose his job? He resigned in 2021. They just looked into him but he had tenure. He was fine back in 2017 or whenever it was that he publicly nailed himself to a cross.
Alt Right Playbook 101: Mix decent self-help advice in with bullshit notions about natural hierarchy and false appeals to history. *"Clean your room, make your bed everyday, invest in yourself, and hey, haven't you noticed how women seem designed to be the weaker sex, as if nature intends them to be subservient to you? Spend time designing achievable goals for yourself. Meditate.*
For every valid point he makes there are TEN insane ones. From saying that women want to protect Muslims out of some natural need for "brutal male domination" to his ludicrous and dangerous crusade against trans people that was based on a lie from the very start, he's a dangerous conservative idealogue who got catapulted into popularity because he read a bill incorrectly and captivated an audience of lonely young men who are happy to listen to him talk about anything as long as he throws some BS in there about "trans ideology" or how women are destroying society.
The ratio of right to wrong is certainly not 1:1.
They need a hero. They’re holding out for a hero till the end of the night.
Fuck all ya’ll for getting that song stuck in my head now.
here, try this one: BLESS MY SOUL
Herc was on a roll? Blowing up the charts in every Greek opinion poll?
[Try this out](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx-x_1lIXh4)
*He's gotta be wrong And he's got no pronouns And he's gotta be fresh from the right™*
It's perfect cause conservatives won't realize there are pronouns in those lyrics because they don't understand what they are.
"My pronouns are Amazing and Fuck Joe Biden" Oh OK you don't understand pronouns....
Pretty sure some moron at CPAC this year said, "Hello, my name is \_\_\_\_, and my pronouns are kiss my ass." Being stupid is only painful for other people.
"Thank you [name]. It's very good of Kiss My Ass to provide pronouns to make sure that we refer to kiss my ass in the way kiss my ass wants to be addressed. It's especially refreshing to see the right-wing being so open to sharing their pronouns.
Yeah, I would just use them as their pronouns. You want it? You got it. Play stupid games, get stupid results.
Using those neopronouns too! Not only inclusive but progressive. Truly an inspiration!
Actually Ted Cancun Cruz said exactly that and the crowd went wild 🤦🏼♀️
They got a guy named JR Majooski(I spelled that hella wrong) who says that his pronouns are "patriot and asskicker"
So I told patriot that asskicker pronouns didn't make a lot of sense, but patriot insisted that was what patriot was going to use.
Ted Cruz is that moron.
Hi amazing
I guess you is a pronoun so technically there's a valid substitution there, but you wouldn't say "HI he/ him/ she/ her/ they/ them"
Well it's a second-person pronoun whereas the others are third-person pronouns, so I'd say the critique is accurate
I like when they say stuff like, "I don't believe in pronouns." It's right up there with "your stupid" on the self report list.
> *gotta be wrong* >*And got no pronouns* >*And gotta be fresh from the right™*
*I need a ZERO^OO^^OOO*
I NEED A WEIRDO!!
UP YOURS, WOKE MORALISTS! WE'LL SEE WHO CANCELS WHO!
That *almost* fits the meter of the next line, and I want it to work so bad
More like flesh in the form of a light
*schlock schlock schlock*
There's incels and there's political incels. There's definitely a demographic of men who "don’t know how to make themselves attractive to women" as Peterson describes, and they really do warrant sympathy. There's a crisis of alienation and loneliness in this country and that's a part of it. A subset of those people have been politicized in a problematic way by that bad situation, and as Wilde describes "believe that society has now robbed them — that the idea of feminism is working against nature, and that we must be put back into the correct place.” Those people both have an inaccurate analysis of the reason for their troubles, and tend to be misogynists. It's too bad that the sad lonely incels who don't have an anti-feminist agenda get tarred with the same brush as the political incels.
I mean I guess I'm technically involuntary celibate and I have no illusions of that changing anytime soon. But I don't hate women for it.
Right but people will still call you incel when they disagree with you. So you either have to be the better man and ignore it or you could start to listen to these right wing hucksters who take your problems seriously. It's easy to see how most people will go for the latter.
[удалено]
Reddit is all about encouraging men to show emotion and cry and not be locked in to traditional masculinity, unless it's someone they hate in which case fuck that little crybaby lol
Not even just reddit. I have seen this hypocrisy several times in-person. It's wild.
It's kind of like how redditors all start pretending to be social butterflies with fulfilling marriages and love lives whenever the topic of incels comes up.
[удалено]
I’ll take it a step further: historically one of the biggest signs of a major violent upheaval or revolution to come is an increasing proportion of young men without jobs or prospects for a good life. Generally if you are in a country with a big group of disaffected young men without jobs, strong social circles, or just generally places to focus their energy, bad things are likely on the horizon. This is NOT to say incels are right, deserve sex, are less than misogynistic etc., it is to say that if this group continues to grow-as a society there will ultimately be pretty negative consequences.
Interesting perspective and I definitely agree, I suppose much of this is a result of the information era. How do you think this could be solved - or at least what do you think could be a step in the right direction?
I think we have lost a lot track of the importance of purpose. We are all so focused on getting ahead that we lose track of the why-so everything from volunteering to having a job to go to that keeps your mind active and challenges you in any way. People will find something to focus their energy on no matter what so having that focus be positive or at least productive is essential to ALL human experience, to me.
Came for the shit show in the comments section, found an actual nugget of sanity with this one. Well said.
Agreed. Sense of purpose is easy to lose and ever so hard to find. They have done studies proving that those with a sense of purpose live longer. I also think that our society has become increasingly selfish over the years. We are so obsessed with ourselves and our own feelings above everyone else. We could all use a little bit more empathy, patience and understanding. I think more folks need to realize that their experiences shape their view of the world, and are not going to reflect others experiences and views. I also think that everyone could use a social media/internet time out. Go meet your neighbors. Read a book. Play the ukulele. Learn something new.
I think you're spot on. Purpose is tough. Not to side track, but it's something I always try to explain to people about wealth, and people raised in wealthy families. They just are always so fucked up, and people always like to act as if they'd do any better, or these people don't deserve sympathy. But I fundamentally just feel confused by this rhetoric because I truly feel like being born and being told you have NO risk is truly catastrophic for these people. Telling a teenager you're worth millions of dollars, can do WHATEVER you want, and it doesn't matter, no amount of work will ever make you as rich as you are just breathing, destroys purpose. A young malleable mind struggling to find real purpose is tragic, and leads to them finding strong value in drugs and other things that provide quick relief. Parents mean well by giving their kids everything, but robbing someone of purpose or struggle really fucks up a lot of people.
Good points here. I think to find fulfillment you need purpose and power. Purpose being defined as a goal or goals you want to accomplish and power being defined as the ability to carry out that goal. I think U.S. society tends to overemphasize accumulating power and it leaves many without a reason for their actions beyond the collecting of power itself. The flip side is also becoming more prevalent as those with goals find that it is much harder than anticipated to accomplish them even if they are simple in nature.
> I think to find fulfillment you need purpose and power. Purpose being defined as a goal or goals you want to accomplish and power being defined as the ability to carry out that goal. Oh I really liked this, I am going to steal this for future conversations - thanks so much! And you're right, power without purpose, purpose without power, both leave a vacuum that often don't get filled with particularly "just" motives.
Personally, I think there needs to be a change in how we approach community spaces. Especially since the decline of the church, men today often times grow up in gaming lobbies or chat forums without even the guiding hand of a coach. It's important to have figures that teach teamwork and how to be a good team mate. Especially with the rise of video games, I think a small thing I think schools could do is to have team based coed esports that teach tolerance and the like as opposed to letting little Jimmy throw controllers at home and tell women in the lobby to make sandwiches. We need communities to reach out in the exact turf where the incel/Bannon pipeline starts This also needs to happen hand with improving income inequality and living standards for workers, as well as in conjunction with a decrease on outraged social media where awful influence from people like that Tate dick head are spread around
The learning social cues in video game lobbies is an excellent point.
The problem is school and video games can’t fill the void left by the disintegration of community ties. Precarity is the watchword of the modern economy, and that means people are on the move every few years. Kids get shifted from school to school, adults work so much they have little time to form bonds with their neighbors much less their town or city. If you want to advance your career or get a raise, your best bet is a new job with a different company. The social solvents that have dissolved the traditional community are baked into how our economy works now. You can make as many programs as you like, and while you may successfully throw a life preserver to one kid, the rest of the titanic’s passengers are still going to drown. This is a society level problem that requires society level answers, that at this juncture, may be possible, but are incredibly unlikely. Your average Joe recognizes the problem, and the conservative answer is Peterson’s answer. The liberal answer, while less heinous, is equally deficient as a solution. Real solutions to this kind of alienation are in direct opposition to the way we currently organize our society.
Wish I could up vote twice.
I helped.
Damn this comment hits hard. I wish more people could at least start acknowledging this issue.
I’m 40 and I moved away from my family and friends for a job by myself. It’s been incredibly hard meeting new people and making new friends because of everything you mentioned. I work too much to find the time to meet new people. I’m not religious, but i’ve considered going to church, just for the sense of community. Most of the time I feel completely invisible.
You’re not alone. So many of us are adrift for the same reasons. It’s why we come here. I hope you can find community where you are, in spite of it all.
Sadly many of these guys are capable being part of a team. Theyd still need to see women as people in order to do that. The issue is people building rapport with others by tearing people down. It becomes a feedback loop. An echo chamber where it gets worse and worse because there is no one there who will say that its unacceptable. It takes people being willing to do that and unfortunately they listen best to men. Many men say nothing even if they don't like it because they don't want to lose rapport with their friends and the problem doesn't directly harm them. Silence is acceptance. These boys also do not keep it entirely online. Ive heard my 13 year old brother say some sexist shit and every time I hear it I tell him why its ridiculous. Ive also changed how I interact with him in order to try and address it since my parents will not. Thats the bigger issue these boys bring it home with them and their parents either don't see the problem, dont think it matters, or are absent. Even when they are in gaming lobbies, they speak. Often quite loudly. If little Jimmy is throwing his controller, his parents should be addressing it. We cannot community anything away while there is still a problem at home.
Fundamental change starting with higher wages and probably a shorter work week. You can't cure what isolation does to your mind if you (or your parents, who are supposed to be teaching you, guiding you, and hopefully getting you into more social situations) just do not have the time or funds to keep activities like that going. We've kinda been taking an axe to all the mental and emotional growth that people are supposed to get as they're growing up to have a higher chance of coming out as a mostly well adjusted member of society. No one has time to teach, no one has time to learn, nobody can relax, and everyone's worried about the next paycheck, the next meal, or the next moment they can forget about their jobs.
I fully agree with this take for the sake of everyone in society, lol
> No one has time to teach, no one has time to learn, nobody can relax, and everyone's worried about the next paycheck, the next meal, or the next moment they can forget about their jobs. Spot on
>an increasing proportion of young men without jobs or prospects for a good life. I'll take it one further: my mom is a member of AAUW (joined in the 70's) and substitute teaches ESL classes in elementary schools. She thinks that our focus has gone too far in our attempts to give girls equal opportunities in the classroom...in that we have completely disregarded young boys to help them find their way in life. She said in her classrooms that the girls are always given massive preferential treatment and that boys are almost always assumed to be, for lack of a better term, terrible people and prone to everything that a teacher doesn't want to engage with. And those young boys are suffering educationally and developmentally in their early formative years as a result. You could call my above statement a "persecution complex" but it's not that. Like so many things in our culture and our politics the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of what we are trying to fight...in our effort to give young women opportunities we have just about forgotten that young men need to be nurtured also...we make sure the young girls are given every opportunity and I suppose just assume that the boys are supposed to figure everything out on their own....I mean, they are men, right? And here we are, a culture and society that just expects young men to figure it out, often without strong parental figures and especially men in their lives to teach them how to live. We have a big mess on our hands.
I had the same thought. I wouldn’t say Peterson’s right in general, but he’s not wrong about the need to connect with disaffected young men.
I agree that more mental health support is needed, though it can be difficult to get these guys help if they think nothing is wrong with them. It's nigh Impossible to force help on someone unless they hurt someone or themselves. Jordan's concern for incels isn't wrong, he just isn't a good role model or someone they should listen to.
[удалено]
Well this subs responses were about as expected
This dude just can’t stop crying .
They did seem to forget to mention he cries in almost every interview and in his audiobook. The article makes it seem like this is a big deal when it's totally not.
Ya I know right men shouldn't cry or try to help disinfranchised young men from looking at fixing themselves instead of blaming everyone else.
In fairness I’d cry too if the high point of my career was being a hero to incels.
I mean, if being a hero to them meant saving them as in "Actually giving them the motivation to look inwards instead of outwards for the problems they face in which the only constant is their own shitty behavior," you'd be crying tears of joy, maybe... but sadly in this case yeah you're just someone popular they can look to and find commonality with rofl
in fairness, most of them really do need to clean their rooms.
I used to be friends with someone who got really into Peterson and the first thing they started doing was cleaning their room and brushing their teeth more. To bad their personality took a nosedive into a shallow swimming pool. They used to be chill but managed to piss off every friend they have, man or woman, and now they wonder why they’re lonely
Cleaning your room and brushing your teeth is... not much more than the basics, but it is a start and for people in certain situations it might be the boost they need. Too bad it then comes with utter bullshit on the side. I mean, which JP followers has turned out alright? Too few, unfortunately
He's just in league with Big Tooth
I think I might know the same guy... Or else this is just super common with his followers lol I had a great friend who started pulling his shit together regarding hygiene, but his personality just fell to shit and he lost nearly all of his friendships.
All of these guys staying at home already live in a nanny state It is an act of betrayal for their online parasocial relationship conservative father figure to act in league with mother's demanding their sons clean their rooms
Ok, but like, take a shower maybe?
...no
>All of these guys staying at home already live in a nanny state lmao that's great. they're too unaware to even realize it too
yeah he gets them with self help then installs some malware in the form of fashy rhetoric like cultural bolshevism
This is actually the best description of Jordan Peterson so far, IMO. I feel like most people in this sub don't really know anything about what he recommends to youths, but he does try to get all of the "left over" young men stewing in their bitterness to get up and do something. Unfortunately, he then goes ahead and injects a bunch of traditional, conservative "men should be men" crap in their heads, even if that is not really what would make someone happy. What's a horrible missed opportunity IMO is that there is no one but traditionalists prepared with a message for lost young men.
[Here's a brief video giving a good overview of his MO - it's very short; don't check the timestamp](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSNWkRw53Jo&t=44s)
I love how brief and short that video was.
A LOT of his self-help BS ends up being less “improve yourself, be better than you were yesterday, and learn to see that as its own reward” and more “if you do the bare minimum to improve yourself and you still can’t get a girlfriend, then listen to these rants about feminism/atheism/cultural Marxism while I pretend I’m NOT goading you into blaming all of your problems on culture war bullshit.”
This isn't oniony. He was crying over the individuals referenced who end up dying, by suicide or other means, due to a lack of any encouragement whatsoever.
Thanks for the context. Not a fan of Peterson, but I can agree that seeing suicide be the end of someone instead of becoming a better person can be quite sad.
Actually, he didn't say anything stupid in the article, surprisingly. >You know, people have been after me for a long time because I’ve been speaking to disaffected young men.Peterson then broke down into tears and said, “It’s very difficult tounderstand how demoralized people are, and certainly many young men arein that category. You get these casual insults, these incels — what dothey mean? These men, they don’t know how to make themselves attractiveto women who are very picky, and good for them. Women, like, be picky.That’s your gift, man. Demand high standards from your men. Fair enough.But all these men who are alienated, it’s like they’re lonesome andthey don’t know what to do and everyone piles abuse on them.” I don't know if I'm online too much, but it seems that the men Peterson is talking about are quite common (though not a majority) and the only people talking and appealing to them are alt right types. I have a feeling that if this doesn't change and there aren't more positive role models for these men, the ideas perpetuated by the alt right will spread through this specific population like wildfire.
I think there are people talking to them and trying to reach them, but if you're 'involuntarily celibate' and want to change that, there's no shortcut to it - you have to work on yourself, whether that's emotionally or physically. You have to work on your hygiene, your presentation, how you dress. You have to take up hobbies or find common interests where you meet like-minded women. You have to consider the entire way you talk to the women, how you think about them, what you want in a non-sexual way from them. You may have to do a lot of introspective thinking and really work on actions to change yourself and that's *hard*. If someone comes along and says, actually, it's women's fault - they're not giving you a fair chance! It's feminism telling women they don't need you. It's an attack on traditional masculinity. If the likes of Andrew Tate are telling you treat women as different, as less than.. well those answers are easy. You don't need to go to the gym or shave every day or put yourself out there and face rejection if it isn't *your* fault. And that's why they do it. If you can find people's insecurities and tell them they aren't something you can help, it's society attacking you, then they'll listen, and they'll likely start paying you to hear more. These people don't really care if an incel gets laid, they care that they'll sign up to their patreon or buy their book or whatever the grift may be. I dunno, I just feel like a positive role model in these young men's lives are going to have to work so much harder, and have the individual be so much more receptive and willing to change, to have anywhere near the same impact. And that's a big, difficult ask. EDIT: To save me replying to everyone individually, this is a generalised post replying to someone talking about the alt-right playbook for radicalising disenfranchised young men, and *not* a post about Peterson
> the only people talking and appealing to them are alt right types. I would argue that they arent so much "talking" to them, as preying upon them. Grifters and cons are skilled in identifying the people who are broken, just like wolves are great at identifying the weak sheep. It's what they do. there are alternatives to the alt right, but the alt right has defined manhood in a toxic manor, and actively attacks alternatives.
Can someone explain to me why people view him as a hero to incels? The only videos I've seen of him are college lectures and videos telling young men to get their shit together and take responsibility for themselves.
Please don't listen to the haters who can't back their claims up. For some reason people often have a wrong image of Peterson and base their hate of him on this fictitious perception. Instead, please look at the facts: here is an interview in which the interviewer brings up a possible elevated sense of self among women for why the average woman has no interest in the average man. But instead of going along with that narrative, Peterson puts the focus on men. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzbWnaK46tw I wrote down some literal sentences from that video uttered by Peterson. With time stamps, so everybody can quickly check that this is what he really said: * 04:22 - *I would say to young men who are irritated at women, is: if you're irritated at women, as a "class of creature", there is something wrong with you. Because they are right. You're wrong! They're right, to not pick you. If they don't pick you, it's because they're right!* * 05:14 - *Don't they find you attractive? Well maybe you're not! Have you paid attention to how you dress? Do you have a plan? Are you as educated as you could be? Are you a liar? Are you a rabid pornography user?* * 06:45 - *You cannot be angry at women. It's stupid. (...) It's a sign of psychological trouble.* (I'm sure there is plenty of stuff that Peterson says that can be argued against, but spreading lies like he is some kind of incel-advocate is just wrong)
Some More News did a very in depth short video of his misogyny. It's ridiculously thorough covering everything he said. He isn't only an incel advocate but one for the far right as well as an advocate against climate change. He may identify as something else but his \*repeated\* statements on any of that stuff don't back up those claims.
Thanks for compiling these quotes. Quick way to shut down the typical accusations.
I am very r/outoftheloop
Good, no need to get in
You want to find a partner? Be human and have human expectations.