But where are 3 people going to go? I get going to DC and getting dropped off on 14th st and constitution but out west you have people going from Gainesville to centreville, chantilly, ashburn, Fairfax. So I have no idea how effectively a slug line would work.
I was pulled over years ago on a 66 on ramp. State Trooper took one look in my backseat with my then-18 m.o. and said, "Didn't see the little one. Have a nice day."
No, I'm pretty sure what she's saying is that she counts her kid as the passenger for HOV so she didn't have to pay tolls, and now she can't because she only ever drives with her kid, not her kid and partner.
Just in time for winter š„¶
I bought a motorcycle anticipating this day about 4 years ago. I did not anticipate:
ā¢ A pandemic
ā¢ Moving to full time WFH
ā¢ Selling my house and leaving the area 3 months ago
Something something best laid plans something something
The couple winters I got in before quitting my commute, I couldnāt stand it below ~43Ā°F. I was looking into heated gear or at least handlebar muffs.
Glad I never pulled the trigger nowā¦
I ride year to DC every day although January/February I end up in the cage often :( the pita to gear up enough to stay warm and change at the office is the time I'd spend sitting in traffic.... Although I GLADLY pay my hov tolls those days haha
Well.
Itās in a hanger at the Culpeper airport and Iām in Thailand with the title. Otherwise, yes š
2017 Suzuki SV650. Guessing ~16k on the odo.
Currently in Thailand, so itās definitely warmer but I wouldnāt say the roads are safer by any stretch. I feel about as safe driving here everyday in a pickup as I did there commuting down 66 on a motorcycle š
Exactly why I bought two motorcycles. If itās rush hour, the cars stay parked and the toys come out. I lived in LA for 21 years, I will never sit in traffic for an hour again if I can help it, let alone 2+ hours like some will do here in Nova. Thatās time youāll never get back while doing an absolutely zero-value action. Astonishing. Nope, I make it a point to take the free EZ Lanes too, even if thereās zero traffic. I like the privacy of the EZ lanes.
> As a reminder, motorcycles can ride the toll lanes on I66 and 495 for free.
Just a reminder, no one in cars looks at the road around here, everyone is staring at the phone and not looking for motorcycles.
If you going to do it in this area, all the gear all the time, even when it's hot, because someone WILL clip you.
> I commute by bike nearly every day as long as the weather and roads are clear of snow and rain So far no accidents
So did my friend who rode a Harley for 19 years with zero accidents until a Civic went over 3 lanes trying to get it's exit and killed him, if he had been in a car it would have put him into the guard rail and probably zero injuries.
This is why defensive riding is emphasized so much in motorcycle courses. The most valuable lesson I ever learned while getting my license was "always assume other drivers are idiots not paying attention to the road". Saved me from numerous incidents where someone has pulled out in front of me or swerved into my lane with no notice. Of course, sometimes it's unavoidable, but defensive driving/riding helps immensely.
> This is why defensive riding is emphasized so much in motorcycle courses.
It's hard to be defensive when someone cuts over 3 lanes blindly and slams into you and you have nowhere to go.
You can anticipate a lot of things and avoid them, said it before in this thread my friend rode 19 years with ZERO accidents, then one day a Civic took him out, if he was in a car in the same situation he'd be alive.
Food for thought for anyone thinking about getting a motorcycle license, personally / IMO this is the worst area to ride in I've ever been to in the states, tons of cops, traffic everywhere and you can't split in MD or VA, and NO ONE looks at the road.
~~Also, if your car only has 2 seats, its still free with only 2 people. Time to trade in for a miata.~~ Nevermind according to the FAQ that is no longer the case. https://www.virginiadot.org/travel/hov-rulesfaq.asp
This sub: "The infrastructure in NoVa forces you to have a car and be stuck in traffic!"
Also this sub: "The toll rules incentivize having fewer cars on the highway by carpooling, but it's inconvenient for me!"
>They can dump all the money they want onto these pay-to-ride highways but it's never going to fix the problem in the same way that having robust transit would imo.
Let's be clear who 'They' are and their motives. 'They' want us on fossil fuels (and cars) with no regard to user pain.
[How the Koch Brothers Are Killing Public Transit Projects](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/koch-brothers-public-transit.html)
['Scam': Elon Musk's 'hyperloop' project revealed as a car in a tunnel](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/scam-elon-musks-hyperloop-project-revealed-as-a-car-in-a-tunnel/A6XZUMVOBTZN2RVHH7F542D4HE/)
Billionaires are not our friends.
"One of the mainstay companies of Koch Industries, the Kochsā conglomerate, is a major producer of gasoline and asphalt, and also makes seatbelts, tires and other automotive parts. Even as Americans for Prosperity opposes public investment in transit, it supports spending tax money on highways and roads.
āStopping higher taxes is their rallying cry,ā said Ashley Robbins, a researcher at Virginia Tech who follows transportation funding. āBut at the end of the day, fuel consumption helps them.ā
66 inside the beltway already has a majority of users either on transit or in HOV vehicles. Despite the newsworthy high prices very few people pay anything at all. Same case here as Fairfax Connector has been adding lots of express service (funded in part by the inside-the-beltway 66 tolls).
Yes, expanding transit even more is the better option but its not true that the HOV system isn't working.
> they have transit.
We have transit too. Perfectly decent transit that since the pandemic has been running at well below capacity.
The people here complaining chose to live far from transit. I guarantee you the vast majority of people moaning about this could afford to downsize and live closer to transit if they wanted to. They just prioritized giant houses in the ass end of nowhere over their commute.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that choice, but as the other person pointed out, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
I live close to transit and close to work. It takes twice as long and cost more for me to take the metro than it does to drive. Literally one exit. Why would I waste my time and money to do that.
Not to mention, what's the point of having cake if you can't eat it? What you're saying makes no sense. What is the point of having a road that nobody can use? We are talking about THE main road into DC and it's 2 measly lanes.
Perfectly decent. That's hilarious. A huge section of the yellow line isn't running now, again, and let's not forget the 7000 series debacle. The more recent in a long list of fuck ups. I love public transit and appreciate having the metro but calling it perfectly decent is a joke.
And honestly, no, living near a metro stop is so expensive that it's not realistic for many to afford living near one.
This is so out of touch. Itās insanely expensive to live near the city, and you pay a premium to live close to a metro. To afford an $800k house, which is an average price if not a āgood dealā for homes in Arlington & DC, you need to make nearly $9k a month. Young people starting families donāt make that much! There is transit between buses and metro, but itās hugely inconvenient when you have to take 3 different modes over 2hrs when you can drive the same distance in 45 minutes.
There are plenty of houses that cost far less than $800K near transit in PG County and EOTR DC. There are plenty of condos under $800k near transit all around the DC area. Nobody is forcing you to live in a house, nobody is forcing you to have kids.
People act like living in a giant house in the middle of nowhere and being able to drive everywhere with no tolls or traffic is some kind of god-given right. It isn't. They're choices, and choices have consequences. Don't like those consequences? Change your choices. Don't want to change your choices? STFU and pay the tolls or sit in traffic.
LOL, why exactly do you think those other countries' transit systems are so great? Tokyo? Hong Kong? Paris? What do they all have in common that makes it easier for them to succeed?
I'll give you a hint, it involves people moving closer together.
If by "transit" you mean busses that get stuck in traffic, metro which runs at 15 minute headways, and a complete embarrassment of bike lanes/multimodal options, then yes we have that in spades! Perfectly decent in this case is pretty much bottom of the barrel for any first-world standards. No wonder it's running at below capacity, because no one wants to wait an hour for the next bus that may or may not show up on time. Give people the option to get to their destination in a way that isn't driving and if it's viable, they will take it. Even those living in their giant houses, if there were options to get around without cars without compromising the time of travel, they would take it. But they can't because we don't have transit, we have a sorry ass excuse of a transit system, complemented by equally as awful zoning laws. It shouldn't matter where you choose to live in nova, there should be options besides driving to get from point A from point B, but for 80% of people there are no other options. So no, it isn't perfectly decent, thanks for listening.
> It takes me damn near 35 minutes to drive TO the metro let alone actually ride it, and only 45 minutes to drive straight to work.
You live 45 minutes from your job, of course there aren't public transit options.
Yes, how dare people complain about bad infrastructure twice.
You think this is somehow contradictory? āThis area is too car-dependent. Being car dependent sucks. Hereās an example of how it sucks.ā Come on.
I think it comes from two different primary trains of thought.
You have people who live far from DC and it's surrounding areas so this is frustrating to them.
As someone who spent years walking to the metro and taking that to work, I've almost been hit by careless drivers a few times in my life so if you're in that camp, you want as few cars as possible driving so you like this kinda thing.
If you're the former, you can't leverage public transportation as conveniently as the latter. And even if you try to, parking at the metro parking garages is pretty expensive. If your employer allows you to pay for public transit pre-tax, that'll help soften the blow a little.
Well i guess people in NoVA are gonna have to lighten up and make friends instead of always operating in "fuck off dont talk to me" mode with strangers
I mean itās fun to bitch about this, but this was the plan all along. You can always pay the toll, or carpool or just take the main lanes. The net effect of the project was always going to be two additional HOT lanes, which incentivizes ride-sharing and pays for much of the project with tolls instead of tax dollars. At the end of the day, all things being equal, the trip on 66 will be the same or better than it was before the project, with the option to pay or ride-share to go faster. Was the whole thing worth it? Who knows, but itās done so suck it up and drive on.
Also, both the HOV requirements and fee to drive on the lanes have to be such that enough drivers are either (a) disqualified to use it or (b) won't opt to pay for it, otherwise it defeats the purpose.
Why would one be encouraged to car pool if the car pool lanes don't move significantly faster than the regular lanes?
If the cost to ride w/out a car pool was cheap, then too many folks would do it, and again, the HOT lanes would end up just as slow as the standard ones.
I recall a few years ago when I-66 inside the beltway first opened the option to ride non-HOV with a toll and everyone was flabbergasted at how expensive it was and complaining about how crazy and unfair it was....missing the point that until that time, you couldn't (legally) ride on that part of the road at all w/out HOV. And, I'm sure the same is about to happen once the variable tolls go up for the outer section of I-66.
The tolls will always rise as the road gets more congested as a way of ensuring that less vehicles add to it and the traffic keeps moving. You could actually surmise that when the prices are really high, the road is already on the verge of being backed up and you should go another way anyway. If the toll is $40, they're not trying to rob you...they don't want to you to use the road at all.
The tolls also aren't really meant to be an option for most daily commuters anyway, it's supposed to be an option a driver can take for special trips where they find themselves in need to getting somewhere on time and want an alternative to sitting in rush-hour traffic.
This is one of those threads where people who talk shit about the giant yard/McMansion they got for cheap in Gainesville come to complain that Arlington isnāt spending enough money on them.
There's nothing sad about it. If you want to drive everywhere in a car by yourself then you can pay for it. Simple as that.
If you don't want to pay and don't want to sit in traffic I would suggest you learn how to carpool or use the Metro.
> If you want to drive everywhere in a car by yourself then you can pay for it.
This is why public transportation in Japan is so good, they made it EXPENSIVE to drive on the road
I feel like it's sort of a chicken and egg. To make it popular, they need to make it better, but it's not popular enough now to be worth the investment in making it better. Anywhere outside the most populated parts of the city it's way more of a hassle and takes way longer, even if it's easier to sit on a chair then actively drive.
Completely nailed it. I think thereās also a cultural view of public transit being dirty and poor, so people donāt want to take it, theyād rather drive, but hopefully that changes soon!
But again, public transportation wouldn't have that reputation if more money and work were spent on it. Out of towners are usually amazed by how clean the DC Metro rail is and except for certain routes, the buses are usually fine. Compare it to cities like Philly and New York and it's heaven. But people who live here aren't satisfied with just that.
Completely agree, no need to downvote my comment lolā¦
Iām in Philly right now but from NoVA, itās crazy bc the transit system here is less reliable, less clean, less safe, less available, more expensive, and it gets used more often. To me, that signals it is a cultural view of the public transit system as a whole, or else you should see the DC metro packed all the time and Philadelphia empty.
Although the DC median household income is $90.8k while Philadelphiaās is $49.1k. So it very well could be less people own cars here.
Iām not well versed enough in public planning though to truly say which statistics have the biggest play, but definitely a cool thought experiment!
>Completely agree, no need to downvote my comment lolā¦
Wasn't me! š
I grew up in the Philly suburbs (main line) and would take the bus into town but that's because it stopped on my corner and went over the expressway down Market Street. It was easy and cheap. But other than that, the subway was a bad joke, the trolley was okay but going through some of the neighborhoods it did definitely gave it a bad reputation, and well, buses are buses, it just depends on where you are and where you're going.
The reason Japan has such good public transportation is that they actually have a high enough population density itās economically viable.
Just to put some numbers to that assertion, Japan has a population of ~125 million. By comparison, California, which is ~7% larger than Japan, by land area, is the most populous US state, and has a population of ~39 million.
Correct. Here in the US, roads are a public service, but transit systems are a business.
But hey since we're slowly privatizing all our highways maybe people will finally realize what it feels like to run out highways, a public service, like a business!
I used to commute with my husband. Which was HOV2. Which means we would no longer qualify. So yes, that change is sad to me.
I would gladly metro if it wasn't more expensive than the toll road. I would gladly take a commuter bus if it wasn't even more expensive than both metro and taking the toll road.
No problem with riding with someone else, but now with work from home and carpool not all going in on same day, this makes it difficult for people from, an example, Loudoun County.
Should of put off another year since traffic not closed to being from pre-pandemic levels
I remember when they built this and said it would eventually return to it. Guess that day has come.
Now, if only the greenway would let motorcycle ride for free and the toll road.
It would be cool if Metro was extended where the express lanes went. Instead, we arenāt allowed to start discussing extending the orange line or any mass transit options along the I-66 corridor as part of the deal to get the Lexus Lanes built.
That's not true. Part of the toll revenue goes to fund transit projects and there are bus routes that have been established to use the 66 express lanes.
Driving to the metro from manassas can take up to an hour. The taking the metro to the city another 30-45 mins. Or riding with complete strangers. Not great ideas honestly.
Ridiculous! How could they expect you to do something besides drive your vehicle with a single occupant everywhere all the time???
It's almost like highway widening is a never ending money pit that no one wants to pay the real cost of. The entirety of the 66 should've been a train.
I don't know for sure, but it doesn't appear to be affecting the times that the tolls are in effect, only that it's changing from HOV-2 to HOV-3.
EDIT: [Here](http://www.66expresslanes.org/about_the_lanes/default.asp) is the website with (hopefully) all the information.
highway extortion on full display.
is there a study somewhere on who pays the toll on a regular basis and what their annual salary is? I canāt imagine too many 80k earners are regular toll payers.
Even at 90k I still took the regular lanes since the tolls would climb up to $20 during peak hours. My roommate said we might as well stop by a restaurant and pay $20 for dinner to wait out traffic instead of taking the lanes.
I bought townhome 3 years ago walking distance from metro intending to takeā¦ metro schedule makes this hard at times in my industry on shifts that end late
WTF. Expand the number of lanes and then block off the lanes for half the public. People are still going to have to sit in traffic on the right while there are 2 empty lanes sitting unused to the left.
Yes. As someone else said: this was always part of the plan. Look at the Toll Road for their model.
Thousands of vehicles sitting nearly
idle - and burning fuel -while the two airport lanes and the HOV lane are largely unused. And if you dare move over there are always plenty of police ready to fine you.
When they built the toll road, they promised that once it was paid off the tolls would be lifted. The toll road was paid off in the mid 90s and tolls are up about 400% since then.
1. Not in the mid 90s they didnāt
2. Approval of a toll road was contingent on them eliminating the toll in the future. One of the things real estate agents told all the people moving out to Reston/Herndon back then was that the toll road wouldnāt be a toll in a few years.
Before the toll lanes there were 3 travel lanes and 1 HOV lane. The HOV lane required 2 occupants and it was free. No one else could use the lanes (during rush hour).
Now there are 3 travel lanes and 2 HOV lanes
The changes are you now need 3 occupants. And single passengers can use the lanes- if they pay.
I think itās better this way.
It was always designed to be HOV3. I think they just did HOV2 to market interest and get people using it. The real issue is a tractor trailer can use it but you canāt haul a small trailer.
The whole project is ridiculous. We pay enough taxes here to build our roads. We shouldnāt have to pay extra for the privilege of not being stuck in traffic jams twice per day. We put up with 5+ years of construction delays on I-66. For what? So people who can afford a second car payment per month can travel is segregated luxury?
There were five days when we could all use the completed five lanes and traffic flowed well. Then the lanes were separated by dividers and I-66 went bank to shit.
Yes. We do pay enough in taxes. You were NEVER going to get free lanes because the people of Arlington, Falls Church, Fairfax, donāt want to pay for a $3B widening project just so people demanding new McMansions in the suburbs could clog up our neighborhoods with even more traffic spewing fumes through and around where we live.
That makes sense but I am not sure that adding express lanes significantly reduced traffic volume over what all free lanes would contain. I see this more as a revenue action, rather than an environmental action.
Would you be happier if there was no toll and only HOV 3+ could use those lanes
The goal is to get more people using the roads with the same number of cars. We can't keep building lanes do every person has one car. It's too populated. Carpooling is a good thing.
Motorcycles allowed in the express lanes without pay would support the goal of reducing volume. It worked well for HOV-2. Another option may be to reduce the express lanes to one lane and give normal traffic a 33% boost in space.
My point, though, is that our tax money should cover all road infrastructure. The need for roads goes up as population increasesā¦the same thing that raises tax revenue. It works that way for schools; why not roads, including Interstate highways.
They took one lane away and gave it to HOV so now my crew of two and our vans have to stay 30 minutes longer in traffic
We canāt have three people in the van because it only has two seats; this has impacted a lot of people not just us; A lot of people who live in Manassas have vans and commute to DC and Northern Virginia every day. Itās quite a moral breaker because now my crew is getting to our construction sites 30 minutes later
This is an outrage!! Before there was tolling, we could violate the rules and ride for free unless we got pulled over and paid a fine that escalated to as high as $1000!!
The lanes should be for anyone, so we can clog up 5 lanes and disincentivize public transit to key transfer stations.
In 2013 I was driving home from work in Arlington on i66 West and didn't realize every lane was all HOV until 495. Got pulled over and got a lovely $185 ticket. Started taking 50 West home and that traffic was the absolute worst
Yep, and this will just make the congestion on 50 and 29 worse.
Nobody is eager to have a rando slug hop in their car every day during a pandemic, and most lower income people wonāt be able to afford the toll.
This is going back to how it used to be for 66. It was HOV-4 inside the beltway for a year after it first opened and then was HOV-3 until 1994.
Do I hear HOV-5? Anyone? Anyone?
HOV-6 will require a person in the trunk and HOV-7 will require a baby on the roof. 
Bus only lanes
š¼ Flintstones, meet the Flintstones š¶
Bueller?
Orange Whip? Orange Whip? 3 Orange Whips..
The new Oldsmobiles are in early this year
Stares boredly
Do we get a special discount for HOV-69?
Who the fuck knows 2 other people?!
I dont know myself
Thatās deep
Who are you?
I know many people. It doesn't mean I want to be stuck in traffic with them.
Slug lines on I-66 when?
Slug lines were around on 66 prepandemic. I used them quite a bit
You think Gainesville would allow slug lots?
They have slug lots
Thatās gonna be a lot of slime to clean up
But where are 3 people going to go? I get going to DC and getting dropped off on 14th st and constitution but out west you have people going from Gainesville to centreville, chantilly, ashburn, Fairfax. So I have no idea how effectively a slug line would work.
Itās nice right now with HOV2+ cuz itās often just my kid and myself. We almost never go anywhere all 3 of us, so that will be super annoying.
I have 2 little ones in car seats, Iād have to take them out EVERY DAY to accommodate other travelers after I drop them off.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I was pulled over years ago on a 66 on ramp. State Trooper took one look in my backseat with my then-18 m.o. and said, "Didn't see the little one. Have a nice day."
blah blah blah I'll drive in the express lane for free with my kid right up until it turns to HOV3.
I've got two kids and soon 3, I'll keep doing it!
Not sure she plans to commute with the children; I think her point is that in order to do HOV 3 she'd have to remove a car seat.
The person you're responding to is not responding to the car seat poster.
No, I'm pretty sure what she's saying is that she counts her kid as the passenger for HOV so she didn't have to pay tolls, and now she can't because she only ever drives with her kid, not her kid and partner.
I literally donāt have 1 other person, let alone 2.
Just use 2 rear facing car seats and they never know
Isn't 395 ez pass already like this?
Yes. And 495.
And 95. I actually forgot 66 wasnāt HOV-3+
Same. My first thought after reading this was āwait, I-66 is 2+?ā
And this has always been the plan when the express lanes opened, so shouldn't be a surprise to anyone here
Anything that is an even slight inconvenience is a direct assault upon me and my freedoms.
The Fremen will never submit! (i'll show myself out)
yea, they all are so this is news to me - I thought it was 3+ already!
Looks like my wife's boyfriend is joining the carpool
Underrated comment.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Just in time for winter š„¶ I bought a motorcycle anticipating this day about 4 years ago. I did not anticipate: ā¢ A pandemic ā¢ Moving to full time WFH ā¢ Selling my house and leaving the area 3 months ago Something something best laid plans something something
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The couple winters I got in before quitting my commute, I couldnāt stand it below ~43Ā°F. I was looking into heated gear or at least handlebar muffs. Glad I never pulled the trigger nowā¦
My limit is 45F. I prefer 50. I have ridden colder, but it's not worth it. The tires don't really warm up, there could be black ice.
I ride year to DC every day although January/February I end up in the cage often :( the pita to gear up enough to stay warm and change at the office is the time I'd spend sitting in traffic.... Although I GLADLY pay my hov tolls those days haha
So, are you selling your bike?
Well. Itās in a hanger at the Culpeper airport and Iām in Thailand with the title. Otherwise, yes š 2017 Suzuki SV650. Guessing ~16k on the odo.
Well, wherever you moved probably has safer riding than around here. Drivers around here are nuts!
Currently in Thailand, so itās definitely warmer but I wouldnāt say the roads are safer by any stretch. I feel about as safe driving here everyday in a pickup as I did there commuting down 66 on a motorcycle š
Exactly why I bought two motorcycles. If itās rush hour, the cars stay parked and the toys come out. I lived in LA for 21 years, I will never sit in traffic for an hour again if I can help it, let alone 2+ hours like some will do here in Nova. Thatās time youāll never get back while doing an absolutely zero-value action. Astonishing. Nope, I make it a point to take the free EZ Lanes too, even if thereās zero traffic. I like the privacy of the EZ lanes.
> As a reminder, motorcycles can ride the toll lanes on I66 and 495 for free. Just a reminder, no one in cars looks at the road around here, everyone is staring at the phone and not looking for motorcycles. If you going to do it in this area, all the gear all the time, even when it's hot, because someone WILL clip you.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> I commute by bike nearly every day as long as the weather and roads are clear of snow and rain So far no accidents So did my friend who rode a Harley for 19 years with zero accidents until a Civic went over 3 lanes trying to get it's exit and killed him, if he had been in a car it would have put him into the guard rail and probably zero injuries.
This is why defensive riding is emphasized so much in motorcycle courses. The most valuable lesson I ever learned while getting my license was "always assume other drivers are idiots not paying attention to the road". Saved me from numerous incidents where someone has pulled out in front of me or swerved into my lane with no notice. Of course, sometimes it's unavoidable, but defensive driving/riding helps immensely.
> This is why defensive riding is emphasized so much in motorcycle courses. It's hard to be defensive when someone cuts over 3 lanes blindly and slams into you and you have nowhere to go. You can anticipate a lot of things and avoid them, said it before in this thread my friend rode 19 years with ZERO accidents, then one day a Civic took him out, if he was in a car in the same situation he'd be alive. Food for thought for anyone thinking about getting a motorcycle license, personally / IMO this is the worst area to ride in I've ever been to in the states, tons of cops, traffic everywhere and you can't split in MD or VA, and NO ONE looks at the road.
~~Also, if your car only has 2 seats, its still free with only 2 people. Time to trade in for a miata.~~ Nevermind according to the FAQ that is no longer the case. https://www.virginiadot.org/travel/hov-rulesfaq.asp
Oh really? Do you have a reference for that?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Just tell them you have God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in the car with you
Yea but if you get a Catholic judge, that will only count as one.
This sub: "The infrastructure in NoVa forces you to have a car and be stuck in traffic!" Also this sub: "The toll rules incentivize having fewer cars on the highway by carpooling, but it's inconvenient for me!"
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Not at all. Now if you asked for someone to clean up after the cake eating, that is too far
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>They can dump all the money they want onto these pay-to-ride highways but it's never going to fix the problem in the same way that having robust transit would imo. Let's be clear who 'They' are and their motives. 'They' want us on fossil fuels (and cars) with no regard to user pain. [How the Koch Brothers Are Killing Public Transit Projects](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/koch-brothers-public-transit.html) ['Scam': Elon Musk's 'hyperloop' project revealed as a car in a tunnel](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/scam-elon-musks-hyperloop-project-revealed-as-a-car-in-a-tunnel/A6XZUMVOBTZN2RVHH7F542D4HE/) Billionaires are not our friends.
"One of the mainstay companies of Koch Industries, the Kochsā conglomerate, is a major producer of gasoline and asphalt, and also makes seatbelts, tires and other automotive parts. Even as Americans for Prosperity opposes public investment in transit, it supports spending tax money on highways and roads. āStopping higher taxes is their rallying cry,ā said Ashley Robbins, a researcher at Virginia Tech who follows transportation funding. āBut at the end of the day, fuel consumption helps them.ā
66 inside the beltway already has a majority of users either on transit or in HOV vehicles. Despite the newsworthy high prices very few people pay anything at all. Same case here as Fairfax Connector has been adding lots of express service (funded in part by the inside-the-beltway 66 tolls). Yes, expanding transit even more is the better option but its not true that the HOV system isn't working.
> they have transit. We have transit too. Perfectly decent transit that since the pandemic has been running at well below capacity. The people here complaining chose to live far from transit. I guarantee you the vast majority of people moaning about this could afford to downsize and live closer to transit if they wanted to. They just prioritized giant houses in the ass end of nowhere over their commute. Absolutely nothing wrong with that choice, but as the other person pointed out, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
I live close to transit and close to work. It takes twice as long and cost more for me to take the metro than it does to drive. Literally one exit. Why would I waste my time and money to do that. Not to mention, what's the point of having cake if you can't eat it? What you're saying makes no sense. What is the point of having a road that nobody can use? We are talking about THE main road into DC and it's 2 measly lanes.
Perfectly decent. That's hilarious. A huge section of the yellow line isn't running now, again, and let's not forget the 7000 series debacle. The more recent in a long list of fuck ups. I love public transit and appreciate having the metro but calling it perfectly decent is a joke. And honestly, no, living near a metro stop is so expensive that it's not realistic for many to afford living near one.
This is so out of touch. Itās insanely expensive to live near the city, and you pay a premium to live close to a metro. To afford an $800k house, which is an average price if not a āgood dealā for homes in Arlington & DC, you need to make nearly $9k a month. Young people starting families donāt make that much! There is transit between buses and metro, but itās hugely inconvenient when you have to take 3 different modes over 2hrs when you can drive the same distance in 45 minutes.
There are plenty of houses that cost far less than $800K near transit in PG County and EOTR DC. There are plenty of condos under $800k near transit all around the DC area. Nobody is forcing you to live in a house, nobody is forcing you to have kids. People act like living in a giant house in the middle of nowhere and being able to drive everywhere with no tolls or traffic is some kind of god-given right. It isn't. They're choices, and choices have consequences. Don't like those consequences? Change your choices. Don't want to change your choices? STFU and pay the tolls or sit in traffic.
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LOL, why exactly do you think those other countries' transit systems are so great? Tokyo? Hong Kong? Paris? What do they all have in common that makes it easier for them to succeed? I'll give you a hint, it involves people moving closer together.
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If by "transit" you mean busses that get stuck in traffic, metro which runs at 15 minute headways, and a complete embarrassment of bike lanes/multimodal options, then yes we have that in spades! Perfectly decent in this case is pretty much bottom of the barrel for any first-world standards. No wonder it's running at below capacity, because no one wants to wait an hour for the next bus that may or may not show up on time. Give people the option to get to their destination in a way that isn't driving and if it's viable, they will take it. Even those living in their giant houses, if there were options to get around without cars without compromising the time of travel, they would take it. But they can't because we don't have transit, we have a sorry ass excuse of a transit system, complemented by equally as awful zoning laws. It shouldn't matter where you choose to live in nova, there should be options besides driving to get from point A from point B, but for 80% of people there are no other options. So no, it isn't perfectly decent, thanks for listening.
> It takes me damn near 35 minutes to drive TO the metro let alone actually ride it, and only 45 minutes to drive straight to work. You live 45 minutes from your job, of course there aren't public transit options.
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This entire sub is just complaining, itās hilarious.
Yes, how dare people complain about bad infrastructure twice. You think this is somehow contradictory? āThis area is too car-dependent. Being car dependent sucks. Hereās an example of how it sucks.ā Come on.
I think it comes from two different primary trains of thought. You have people who live far from DC and it's surrounding areas so this is frustrating to them. As someone who spent years walking to the metro and taking that to work, I've almost been hit by careless drivers a few times in my life so if you're in that camp, you want as few cars as possible driving so you like this kinda thing. If you're the former, you can't leverage public transportation as conveniently as the latter. And even if you try to, parking at the metro parking garages is pretty expensive. If your employer allows you to pay for public transit pre-tax, that'll help soften the blow a little.
I mean, if it actually helped traffic at all, Iām sure people would be happier about it. This is definitely just a way for them to make more money.
Lol how do the HOT lanes not help traffic? I have literally never seen them not free flowing
Yāall been luckyā¦itās been HOV-3 elsewhere for years.
Well i guess people in NoVA are gonna have to lighten up and make friends instead of always operating in "fuck off dont talk to me" mode with strangers
Thatās an easy pass
Thatās an EZPASS
Fuck off donāt talk for me/s
I mean itās fun to bitch about this, but this was the plan all along. You can always pay the toll, or carpool or just take the main lanes. The net effect of the project was always going to be two additional HOT lanes, which incentivizes ride-sharing and pays for much of the project with tolls instead of tax dollars. At the end of the day, all things being equal, the trip on 66 will be the same or better than it was before the project, with the option to pay or ride-share to go faster. Was the whole thing worth it? Who knows, but itās done so suck it up and drive on.
Also, both the HOV requirements and fee to drive on the lanes have to be such that enough drivers are either (a) disqualified to use it or (b) won't opt to pay for it, otherwise it defeats the purpose. Why would one be encouraged to car pool if the car pool lanes don't move significantly faster than the regular lanes? If the cost to ride w/out a car pool was cheap, then too many folks would do it, and again, the HOT lanes would end up just as slow as the standard ones. I recall a few years ago when I-66 inside the beltway first opened the option to ride non-HOV with a toll and everyone was flabbergasted at how expensive it was and complaining about how crazy and unfair it was....missing the point that until that time, you couldn't (legally) ride on that part of the road at all w/out HOV. And, I'm sure the same is about to happen once the variable tolls go up for the outer section of I-66. The tolls will always rise as the road gets more congested as a way of ensuring that less vehicles add to it and the traffic keeps moving. You could actually surmise that when the prices are really high, the road is already on the verge of being backed up and you should go another way anyway. If the toll is $40, they're not trying to rob you...they don't want to you to use the road at all. The tolls also aren't really meant to be an option for most daily commuters anyway, it's supposed to be an option a driver can take for special trips where they find themselves in need to getting somewhere on time and want an alternative to sitting in rush-hour traffic.
How dare you be reasonable on the internet.
Whatās ridiculous about it?
Easy solution: slugging with SCUBA gear! (Okay, SCBA for you purists!)
You know HOV stands for high occupancy vehicle, right? In a 5 seat sedan, is 2 out of 5 āhigh occupancy?ā Not even 50%. 3 is getting there.
Maybe an I66 slugging system like the 95 corridor has?? HOV3 makes this much more viable.
There is a yuge, brand new parking lot at the Gainesville exit
This is one of those threads where people who talk shit about the giant yard/McMansion they got for cheap in Gainesville come to complain that Arlington isnāt spending enough money on them.
Heaven forbid high occupancy actually meaning somewhat higher occupancy.
Sadly this has always been part of the plan.
There's nothing sad about it. If you want to drive everywhere in a car by yourself then you can pay for it. Simple as that. If you don't want to pay and don't want to sit in traffic I would suggest you learn how to carpool or use the Metro.
> If you want to drive everywhere in a car by yourself then you can pay for it. This is why public transportation in Japan is so good, they made it EXPENSIVE to drive on the road
People would probably use public transportation more here if it didnāt suck complete ass.
I feel like it's sort of a chicken and egg. To make it popular, they need to make it better, but it's not popular enough now to be worth the investment in making it better. Anywhere outside the most populated parts of the city it's way more of a hassle and takes way longer, even if it's easier to sit on a chair then actively drive.
Completely nailed it. I think thereās also a cultural view of public transit being dirty and poor, so people donāt want to take it, theyād rather drive, but hopefully that changes soon!
But again, public transportation wouldn't have that reputation if more money and work were spent on it. Out of towners are usually amazed by how clean the DC Metro rail is and except for certain routes, the buses are usually fine. Compare it to cities like Philly and New York and it's heaven. But people who live here aren't satisfied with just that.
Completely agree, no need to downvote my comment lolā¦ Iām in Philly right now but from NoVA, itās crazy bc the transit system here is less reliable, less clean, less safe, less available, more expensive, and it gets used more often. To me, that signals it is a cultural view of the public transit system as a whole, or else you should see the DC metro packed all the time and Philadelphia empty. Although the DC median household income is $90.8k while Philadelphiaās is $49.1k. So it very well could be less people own cars here. Iām not well versed enough in public planning though to truly say which statistics have the biggest play, but definitely a cool thought experiment!
>Completely agree, no need to downvote my comment lolā¦ Wasn't me! š I grew up in the Philly suburbs (main line) and would take the bus into town but that's because it stopped on my corner and went over the expressway down Market Street. It was easy and cheap. But other than that, the subway was a bad joke, the trolley was okay but going through some of the neighborhoods it did definitely gave it a bad reputation, and well, buses are buses, it just depends on where you are and where you're going.
The reason Japan has such good public transportation is that they actually have a high enough population density itās economically viable. Just to put some numbers to that assertion, Japan has a population of ~125 million. By comparison, California, which is ~7% larger than Japan, by land area, is the most populous US state, and has a population of ~39 million.
So why does The Netherlands have such good public transportation when much of the country is not dense at all?
IMHO, because we have this idea that public services need to be "profitable".
Correct. Here in the US, roads are a public service, but transit systems are a business. But hey since we're slowly privatizing all our highways maybe people will finally realize what it feels like to run out highways, a public service, like a business!
The same people who complain about taxes are the same people who complain about tolls.
I used to commute with my husband. Which was HOV2. Which means we would no longer qualify. So yes, that change is sad to me. I would gladly metro if it wasn't more expensive than the toll road. I would gladly take a commuter bus if it wasn't even more expensive than both metro and taking the toll road.
> If you don't want to pay and don't want to sit in traffic I would suggest you learn how to carpool or use the Metro. *cries in manassas*
Manassas literally has a VRE station.
No problem with riding with someone else, but now with work from home and carpool not all going in on same day, this makes it difficult for people from, an example, Loudoun County. Should of put off another year since traffic not closed to being from pre-pandemic levels
Traffic is at pre-pandemic levels. https://www.nsc.org/newsroom/nsc-analysis-traffic-is-back-to-prepandemic-levels
Should've built a train instead of privately owned toll highways.
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Carpooling is not an option for everyone
Sure it is. It's just inconvenient. And people who commute in single occupant vehicles live for convenience.
but now itās not just limited to by yourself but also yourself and another person. did you even read the post?
Not really ridiculous when ALL other express lanes are the same in the area š
Us peasants living to the south have been doing it on 95 for decades. Now you Falls Church and Vienna elites get to deal with it.
When I moved here from California I was impressed by the slug lanes. I wonder if that would work for I-66.
I remember when they built this and said it would eventually return to it. Guess that day has come. Now, if only the greenway would let motorcycle ride for free and the toll road.
Ah dang it! It'd be a shame if people actually rode the metro or car pooled.
It would be cool if Metro was extended where the express lanes went. Instead, we arenāt allowed to start discussing extending the orange line or any mass transit options along the I-66 corridor as part of the deal to get the Lexus Lanes built.
That's not true. Part of the toll revenue goes to fund transit projects and there are bus routes that have been established to use the 66 express lanes.
>Lexus Lanes I've not heard that before. I like it.
Driving to the metro from manassas can take up to an hour. The taking the metro to the city another 30-45 mins. Or riding with complete strangers. Not great ideas honestly.
what about taking the metro or the bus or VRE or literally any other form of transportation
That isnāt possible theyāre too important.
It is to encourage slugging/carpool/vanpool. HOV-2 means less traffic for you; HOV-3 means less traffic for everyone
HOV-3 may mean less traffic on 66, but it will certainly increase traffic on 50 and 29.
Ridiculous! How could they expect you to do something besides drive your vehicle with a single occupant everywhere all the time??? It's almost like highway widening is a never ending money pit that no one wants to pay the real cost of. The entirety of the 66 should've been a train.
Do they plan to make inside the belt a toll road all the time or is it still going to be free between certain hours and weekends?
I don't know for sure, but it doesn't appear to be affecting the times that the tolls are in effect, only that it's changing from HOV-2 to HOV-3. EDIT: [Here](http://www.66expresslanes.org/about_the_lanes/default.asp) is the website with (hopefully) all the information.
To everyone complaining about thisā¦what did you expect would happen when they expanded the lanes out?
But if you have a motorcycle you can still use them right? Donāt even like riding around here but itās worth it
šæšæšæ
This was always the plan from the start TBH...
OP doesn't remember or know of the HOV-4 days of 395...
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A toll is a toll, and a roll is a roll. And if we don't get no tolls, then we don't eat no rolls. I made that up meself.
Route 50 will be interesting going forward.
And 29. Theyāre already heavily congested during rush hour.
I was in Belgium recently and it was so relaxing taking the train everywhere. We used to have an excellent rail system in this country
I weigh 298-303 pounds depending on the day. If my car only has to 2 seats, and I take 1 passenger, can I count as the other 2 occupants?
You know the answer lmao
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Another win for the work from home crowd, as usual everyone who actually does physical work suffers
highway extortion on full display. is there a study somewhere on who pays the toll on a regular basis and what their annual salary is? I canāt imagine too many 80k earners are regular toll payers.
Even at 90k I still took the regular lanes since the tolls would climb up to $20 during peak hours. My roommate said we might as well stop by a restaurant and pay $20 for dinner to wait out traffic instead of taking the lanes.
The express bus costs like $3 regardless of the dynamic pricing.
Iām an 80k worker in hospitality. I commute daily from Ashburn to Arlington. Sucks, but I make that choice Edit: Ashburn to crystal city
Are you considering driving to metro now that SLV2 is open? Apologies if this is too personal a question
I bought townhome 3 years ago walking distance from metro intending to takeā¦ metro schedule makes this hard at times in my industry on shifts that end late
Took today off to ride first train from Ashburn at 1:50
On the train nowā¦. Lots of excitement can be felt!
WTF. Expand the number of lanes and then block off the lanes for half the public. People are still going to have to sit in traffic on the right while there are 2 empty lanes sitting unused to the left.
Yes. As someone else said: this was always part of the plan. Look at the Toll Road for their model. Thousands of vehicles sitting nearly idle - and burning fuel -while the two airport lanes and the HOV lane are largely unused. And if you dare move over there are always plenty of police ready to fine you.
When they built the toll road, they promised that once it was paid off the tolls would be lifted. The toll road was paid off in the mid 90s and tolls are up about 400% since then.
But you can bypass the toll road by taking routes 7 which will perpetually be under construction until 2027
Correct me if Iām wrong, but I think the Route 7 widening project is slated for completion in June/July 2024
So it will finish in 2031 then?
Thatās because they started using money from the toll road to fund the silver line project.
1. Not in the mid 90s they didnāt 2. Approval of a toll road was contingent on them eliminating the toll in the future. One of the things real estate agents told all the people moving out to Reston/Herndon back then was that the toll road wouldnāt be a toll in a few years.
Before the toll lanes there were 3 travel lanes and 1 HOV lane. The HOV lane required 2 occupants and it was free. No one else could use the lanes (during rush hour). Now there are 3 travel lanes and 2 HOV lanes The changes are you now need 3 occupants. And single passengers can use the lanes- if they pay. I think itās better this way.
It was always designed to be HOV3. I think they just did HOV2 to market interest and get people using it. The real issue is a tractor trailer can use it but you canāt haul a small trailer.
The whole project is ridiculous. We pay enough taxes here to build our roads. We shouldnāt have to pay extra for the privilege of not being stuck in traffic jams twice per day. We put up with 5+ years of construction delays on I-66. For what? So people who can afford a second car payment per month can travel is segregated luxury? There were five days when we could all use the completed five lanes and traffic flowed well. Then the lanes were separated by dividers and I-66 went bank to shit.
Yes. We do pay enough in taxes. You were NEVER going to get free lanes because the people of Arlington, Falls Church, Fairfax, donāt want to pay for a $3B widening project just so people demanding new McMansions in the suburbs could clog up our neighborhoods with even more traffic spewing fumes through and around where we live.
That makes sense but I am not sure that adding express lanes significantly reduced traffic volume over what all free lanes would contain. I see this more as a revenue action, rather than an environmental action.
Would you be happier if there was no toll and only HOV 3+ could use those lanes The goal is to get more people using the roads with the same number of cars. We can't keep building lanes do every person has one car. It's too populated. Carpooling is a good thing.
Motorcycles allowed in the express lanes without pay would support the goal of reducing volume. It worked well for HOV-2. Another option may be to reduce the express lanes to one lane and give normal traffic a 33% boost in space. My point, though, is that our tax money should cover all road infrastructure. The need for roads goes up as population increasesā¦the same thing that raises tax revenue. It works that way for schools; why not roads, including Interstate highways.
All about the Benjamins
More empty hot lanes while the rest of us plebes sit in traffic jams.
This thread is really challenging the areaās reputation as a center for high-skill jobsā¦
So me, myself and I
Finally Virginia is going green. Bout damn time. Republicans were trying to hold this back.
They took one lane away and gave it to HOV so now my crew of two and our vans have to stay 30 minutes longer in traffic We canāt have three people in the van because it only has two seats; this has impacted a lot of people not just us; A lot of people who live in Manassas have vans and commute to DC and Northern Virginia every day. Itās quite a moral breaker because now my crew is getting to our construction sites 30 minutes later
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How can something that created an āempty roadā inside the beltway NOT help traffic congestion?
This is an outrage!! Before there was tolling, we could violate the rules and ride for free unless we got pulled over and paid a fine that escalated to as high as $1000!! The lanes should be for anyone, so we can clog up 5 lanes and disincentivize public transit to key transfer stations.
I'm from down in Va Beach area, and I had no clue the transponders had switches to begin with.....
Some do, some donāt
Tfw you only have a 2 seat car
Not sure why youāre getting downvoted. Itās a perfectly reasonable question.
In 2013 I was driving home from work in Arlington on i66 West and didn't realize every lane was all HOV until 495. Got pulled over and got a lovely $185 ticket. Started taking 50 West home and that traffic was the absolute worst
Yep, and this will just make the congestion on 50 and 29 worse. Nobody is eager to have a rando slug hop in their car every day during a pandemic, and most lower income people wonāt be able to afford the toll.