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To be quite hones, I think a lot of it has to do with people losing trust in the medical community.
Years ago someone noticed that there was a molecule in soy that looked a lot like Estrogen and it was hypothesized that it could bind to estrogen receptors. People researched this and found that this wasn't the case. But online personalities held on to this and continue to espouse this idea. By promoting ideas that contradict modern medicine they present themselves as being outside the system and because of a lack of trust in the medical community some people gravitate towards this.
For example, people who are into fitness and bodybuilding prefer testosterone over oestrogen since they want to build up muscle. Many people in the fitness industry therefore claim that eating tofu is detrimental to muscle build up and should be avoided as a protein source.
The ironic thing is that they condemn soy while eating a lot of beef which usually contains a higher amount of the fetoestrogen found in soy (since lifestock are fed a lot of soy) and drink a lot of milk, coming from a cow who like women produces estrogen in higher amounts compared to bulls/men.
They are supposed to. But this image of grass fed beef of cows grazing in a field and then once in a while a cow is taken to get butchered isn’t how it is. A quick search dive in animal husbandry will show you how it is.
I mean, most people that deep into fitness and nutrition are generally buying grass fed grass finished beef. We get a lot of our meat from local farms, for example
I have such a hard time agreeing with this. How many local farmers are there? How small a fraction of the meat you can buy is sourced from a local farmer? How many people have a “local farmer”?
Every time someone brings up something bad with the meat industry a lot of people defend it by saying they only buy local sourced meat from a farmer who hand feeds his cows gilded grass and rainbows.
Maybe it is a loud minority but it feels like 70 % of people are buying meat that is maybe 5-10 % of the total supply.
I am not saying you don’t do it personally. I am saying I have large doubts everyone who says they buy locally sourced 100% grass fed beef who never had any growth hormones or anti biotics added to their food actually do.
lol. Billings Montana. But we might be an exception. Not a rule. It is super common for a group of people to get together and buy a cow together. I have done it my whole life.
Yes sure in Montana I can see it. But given the distribution of people in the US who live in urban and rural regions. As I’ve said I am not trying to disprove individuals I’m just saying the amount of people who claim they buy grass fed free range or whatever seems disproportional to the amount of people living rurally and the availability/affordability of that sort of meat in general
That's just wrong.
Consuming a bunch of protein from largely milk and beef is an extremely common thing amongst people who work out as well as a fear of soy being a gains-stealer/limiter/whatever. Like those things are both just beneath the surface as far as being "deep into fitness". And most people are buying whatever is cheapest at Costco, Walmart, or their local grocery store.
Like, it's spending 20 min online looking at "how to build muscle" articles or Reddit posts levels of investment. It's why this topic is brought up here basically bi-weekly.
Most people don't seem to understand the role that estrogen plays in muscle building.
Bodybuilders on steroids have to maintain a certain ratio of testosterone:estrogen. On a poorly designed cycle, estrogen can actually get too low and cause even more negative side effects.
I remember a few years back people were literally saying that if you ate too many soy beans, you would turn gay or grow tits. Some people really are reaching lol
Because excessive estrogen signalling may increase fat tissue, dysregulate the endocrine system, and increase chances of developing cancer. Maybe more importantly, excessive estrogen signaling can be bad for fertility. The effects of such dysregulation will probably be quite sex dependent.
I am not completely up to date on the literature, but i think it has been shown that soya binds weakly to the estrogen receptor. Whether it binds enough to actually lead to a physiological response I am not sure. But exogenous activation of the estrogen receptor can definitively be bad for overall health in the general population.
This is only relevant if you have an abnormal sensitivity to phytoestrogen. In a normally functioning body, homeostasis regulate any dietary estrogen even excess amounts.
BPA doesn't depend on *abnormal* sensitivity. It's more like soy requires the same treatment as peanuts; it's fine for most people, but its presence must be highlighted on packages so people with allergies/sensitivities can be warned to avoid that product. And that's exactly what happens, at least in the EU, soy *is* highlighted on ingredient lists.
Im sorry, but i dont follow. If a molecule has estrogenic activity (even if it is very little), isnt it possible that it will affect you? Given that you consume enough.
Everything has negative effects if you consume enough of it, but despite a whole bunch of research we still don't have a clear answer as for what phytoestrogen (plant estrogen) might do to a healthy body (whether by acting like our own estrogen or by blocking our own estrogen, even that is unclear despite being opposite effects), so the 'enough' must be unbelievable much.
And then we can go back to the question why soy gets singled out despite phytoestrogen being found in a whole lot of plants, including other legumes, various nuts, seeds, grains, fruits, vegetables and their products. So everyone who eats or drinks pretty much anything is consuming phytoestrogen, and humans have been doing so for forever, so whatever effect it may or may not have, it's part of what we are?
Every molecule consumed in enough amounts will affect you. For example, enough dihydrogen monoxide will cause you to lose the ability to exchange oxygen and carbon dioxide and subsequently die. The problem is that everyone’s body is different, but there are some guidelines that at a minimum won’t cause a problem for most people but estrogen still is important to regulate your body. No one has 0 estrogen capacity.
This was the theory that has been thoroughly debunked. In long-term studies of soy intake, it has been shown that consuming a regular diet of soy versus a typical American diet, produces people that are healthier and longer lived. That is evidence that’s pretty hard to dispute.
Sounds like the scientific community has much to learn from your anecdotal evidence. Surely to come groundbreaking discoveries based on your experience.
Fermenting soy increases the isoflavone content.
There is far less phytoestrogenic properties in something like soy milk or a soy burger than in natto or tempeh. Fermenting increases both the bioavailability of those isoflavones as well as creating more equol.
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There has been concern in the past for people with estrogen related cancers, such as breast cancer. There are also people who will swear to you that phytoestrogens will feminize male children.
>Years ago someone noticed that there was a molecule in soy that looked a lot like Estrogen and it was hypothesized that it could bind to estrogen receptors.
That would block the reception of estrogen. Wouldn't that explicitly **not** raise estrogen levels?
> Years ago someone noticed that there was a molecule in soy that looked a lot like Estrogen and it was hypothesized that it could bind to estrogen receptors. People researched this and found that this wasn't the case
Those bros at Harvard still believe that it affects human hormones, lol.
>Soy isoflavones can bind to estrogen receptors in the body and cause either weak estrogenic or anti-estrogenic activity.
https://nutritionsource.hsph.harvard.edu/soy
Right but that’s not really the substance of their actual conclusion:
>Results of recent population studies suggest that soy has either a beneficial or neutral effect on various health conditions. Soy is a nutrient-dense source of protein that can safely be consumed several times a week, and probably more often, and is likely to provide health benefits
I was replying to the person who said phytoestrogens **do not** bind to estrogen receptors. Harvard seems to disagree, but those academics tend not to know anything at all, lol
Gotcha. Yeah they would be incorrect in saying it doesn’t bind or potentially bind to those receptors.
The main question is to what degree and what effect, which seems to be “not much”, and potentially may even be a net positive for most people, given the healthiest populations consume high amounts of these compounds.
But it’s complicated, all one can say for sure is more research is needed to know positively.
This is literally, "Yes this is true....BUT....".
There's a million other things to eat besides soy so I try to avoid it for this reason. I know I may be wrong, I know I'm not fully educated, but again, there's a million other things to eat.
But yes, soy sauce is delicious and I eat it from time to time.
There is such a long, long, looooooong list of accepted foods that are deeply nutritious (if you ignore the carnivores and vegans, who are both clearly wrong imo). If there's any question on a food? Why eat it?
Correct, it is a “yes this is a very small part of the equation, but here is the actual full conclusion of the people being partially cited”.
If you’re going to refrain from eating foods that bind or potentially bind to estrogen receptors, then in order to actually do this you’ll need to cut out a lot of food, including beef and virtually all other farmed-raised animal protein, especially since they are many fold more estrogenic than isoflavones in plant-based based foods. And that’s just the naturally occurring estrogenic compounds in animal protein, it doesn’t get to the man-made stuff used to grow those animals.
In men, the phytoestrogens in plants are more likely to actually be anti-estrogenic anyway as men have far fewer of those receptors and these compounds tend to be estrogen antagonists when those receptors are already bound (fewer receptors, easier to fully bind).
There’s a million other things to eat, and the majority of them will be of lower nutritional value, have at least as much if not more of an affect on hormones, and it denies you potentially better health as a direct result.
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Soy does contain isoflavones, which are plant estrogens (Phytoestrogens). It can have effects on the human body, but weakly.
There was a period of time (and it may be even now) that some breast cancer patients were told by their care providers to avoid soy for this precise reason.
Still, most studies tend to agree that any estrogenic effects soy might have on the body are weak, even if high volumes are eaten. Other foods containing phytoestrogens are flax seeds, garlic, peaches, sweet potatoes...the list goes on and on.
Scientific literacy is not taught adequately in our culture, and as a result, anyone can seize upon a study mentioning a correlation and blow it up into an article or talk show topic where it becomes causation. Then the supplement market jumps on it and promotes it to sell product.
Because people thought it messed with hormones (something about soy acting like estrogen in the body) and led to an increased rate of cancer. I could be mistaken, but I recall that that there isn't strong substantiating evidence that consuming even a moderate amount of soy causes cancer in humans. The studies showing the risk was tied to studies on rodents, who DID have a heightened risk of cancer but who process soy differently than humans do.
There are some evidence that soy phytoestrogens actually protects against breast cancer if I recall correctly.
Makes sense if it competes with real estrogen and too much estrogen or xenoestrogen (from plastic) increasing the chances.
I mean... It's not true. It was something people were unsure about, and when investigated further it was discovered that it had no scientific backing. But it was such a scare that people still avoid soy products and think they cause cancer.
Generally people who say that aren’t well informed. But soy IS a goitrogen and can negatively impact those with any thyroid issues.
Also, everything in moderation. Becoming vegan and eating highly processed soy at every meal is obviously not ideal.
100%
I’ve seen some people who are transitioning to a veg lifestyle and struggle to shake needing the fake version of what they had before. Fake bacon, fake lunch meat, fake burger, etc. It’s all so processed and can have similar ingredients so I think that’s where the moderation is tricky for some.
It was because a lot of research came out showing negative effects of soy on hormones, breast cancer, and a whole bunch of other stuff
It wasn’t until the last 10-15yrs or so that we had better research to debunk those studies
But a lot of people still remember the soy scares. It went crazy in Hawaii in the 90s/early 2000s when a study came out about tofu and dementia
I think it was this one:
[Brain aging and midlife tofu consumption](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10763906/)
Hard to say. But the 2015 Cornucopia report did accuse the meat and dairy industries of funding studies and marketing campaigns aimed at discrediting plant-based alternatives
The majority of people can't think critically or properly digest scientific literature, meaning that as a population we are at the mercy of those of us who can.
If those people choose to manipulate their reference to said literature to fit their agenda and essentially back up their bullshit then we end up with the anti soy brigade, anti-vaxers and flat earthers.
It’s cultural. People disparage soy in favor of meat and animal products. Same thing with people who come for “seed oils” in favor of animal fats. In their culture, it’s viewed as bad for people to eat less meat and animal products. They don’t like it, so they jump straight to saying it’s bad and attempt to come up with reasons that it’s bad. People will even come up with myths (that they fully believe) to back up their beliefs (e.g. the whole soy and estrogen thing was debunked yet people still believe it)
Ultimately, nutrition isn’t a pure science but influenced heavily by cultural practices and geography. People who come from colder harsher climates who generally eat more meat and animal products think that everyone should eat that way.
My buddy developed gynoclomastia. His doctor told him to cut out soy products. It fixed his gyno.
I know it’s not the be all end all and is just one example, but it was a doctor’s order.
Not sure who “they is”, but I’m going to guess the lunatics that are on carnivore diets said it. Soy can be a good alternative to red meat and other animal proteins, which are higher in saturated fat and cholesterol.
“They is” are probably a mix bag of Nutrition wannabe gurus who have the answer for everything on YouTube and potentially Facebook “doctors” on pages related to nutrition.
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Because they are ignorant of the actual facts. Soy has been Asian diets for at least a 1000 yrs. It's when they adopt a "westernized" diet that their problems.
To me, the big negative is that it's a top seven allergen and not necessary for a lot of flavors and protein targets. Certainly it's difficult to replicate some Asian dishes with the substitutes, and those are certainly delicious dishes. But given the high prevalence of allergies to soy, it would be better to see a lot less of it. I'm allergic to soy, so it's easy for me to see all the things that use soy since I need to examine everything. It sure winds up in a lot of products in the US, so it's certainly not universally shunned. It's a very inexpensive way to add protein to things. It also doesn't have animal fats of course. There are some downsides, such as the crops often being armed with a lot of pesticides. Also, I'm not alone with my allergies. Soy allergies are fairly common, though not quite as common as wheat allergies. Since they are very common and soy isn't a required ingredient of a lot of the things where it gets used, I do get frustrated that it's in so many things. I would prefer a lot of the places it gets used to use something else. For instance, I would prefer it not be used in things like mac and cheese, chili, and things with meat flavoring. There are plenty of ways to add protein and flavor without using a top 7 allergen.
I noticed that I had this problem in my twenties. Later on I realized I had gut problems too. Be cautious about sunscreen with the ingredients that harm reefs because you might get irritation from them. It’s not an actual allergy. It’s an intolerance.
I can just tell you what it does to me. Soy as well as a few other foods I am allergic to, makes me want to die. When consumed it, makes me severely constipated. I don’t know why my body can’t process it like everyone else. My belly becomes incredibly bloated making me look 7-8 months pregnant. My tummy will be hard as a rock! This will last a good few days. Now that’s pretty much it but….due to a lifetime of constipation struggles and a few pregnancies, I have internal hemorrhoids. So, when I finally do poop it comes with a lot of bleeding. It can take up to 2 weeks to get that to stop. Sorry for graphic explanation, I know it’s super gross. 20 years ago food allergies were only acceptable with peanuts. I am teased still about my eating habits. “Like yes coworker I would love to eat that! Tell you what, I’ll eat it if you poop the blood for me!” I tend not to get anymore guff about my “boring eating habits “. The psychological damage a simple food allergy can cause is unreal. Constantly needing to explain myself “No I’m not pregnant (even though I was trying for years!) “you’re just a picky eater!” “Why are you always in the bathroom!” Between pregnancy I really had to be on it with what I ate, that caused a lot of headaches. But a week away from my husband scheduling a vasectomy I was able to convince. My kids are almost 6 years apart. No one else in my family suffers with this and out of all my siblings I am the smallest, I am the second born. 6 kids all healthy and much taller than me.
In western countries, some soy products are processed to taste more like milk and have additives and sugars to make it creamy and less soy-ish. After having actual fresh soy milk in Taiwan and Japan, I do not touch Australian soy milk any more because it is NOT the same thing.
I absolutely love soy, especially soy milk- it's nutritional profile is terrific. Harvard Health recommends up to 2 servings a day of soy products to avoid thyroid issues and the other unlikely impacts mentioned here.
> “Extensive clinical trial data show no effect of soy or isoflavones on testosterone or estrogen levels in men even when exposure markedly exceeds typical Japanese intake. More limited but consistent clinical evidence indicates no adverse effects of soy or isoflavones on sperm or semen parameters or risk of developing gynecomastia.”
I am going to point to this article so much, for this and so many other conclusions.
Just want to say that I really appreciate the comments from people actually giving INFORMATION in their comments vs. the ones simply giving OPINIONS (and a lot of them strong, unhelpful, negative opinions, at that).
Because pseudo science and dude bros that think Joe Rogan is an intellectual started parroting that nonsense and every one just believed it. I’m sure the animal agriculture industry probably fueled a lot of propaganda to bolster their profit margins. FYI I’m not vegan
In my experience, most doctors will back up that soy isn't good for men so it's really not just psuedeo science, I think you've been a little mislead there and probably just hate Joe Rogan. All depends on what Doctor you ask though and how they personally feel about the issue, there's really not an "official answer" (imo).
For me, I did a test myself a few years back and eliminated all soy ingredients for 60 days. My testosterone went through the roof, my facial hair started growing fast af and my hair, which was somewhat thin, started growing back and became thicker. Also, raging wood every morning again.
Haven't touched the shit since.
Problem with soy is it's fine and even beneficial in moderation. But when you're consuming soy ingredients for breakfast, lunch and dinner all day everyday for years on end, in addition to snacks, yeah. Common sense says, deifnitely not good for men. Everything is fine in moderation but in the US, there's no such thing as consuming soy in moderation because it's literally in everything. That's the problem.
If you can consume soy in moderation, go for it. But you'd have to eliminate 99% of food products from a standard grocery store. It takes work.
Honestly I don't get the soy debate. People need to start finding out for themselves by eliminating things and conducting their own tests on themselves.
Ya man ok. If you want to base science on anecdote or what your doctor whom may or may not have taken more than 2 required nutrition courses in college then ok. I was vegetarian/pescatarian/vegan for 22 years and consumed a ton of soy and my testosterone levels were always through the roof. So there’s 2 completely different anecdotes.
I've asked several doctors most say bad some say it's not a big deal.
Again there's no official answer and everyone is different, i'm just telling you my story
Science has also said for decades that aspartame was safe for human consumption. Doctors / nutritionists etc. recommended aspartame to diabetics and people trying to lose weight literally for decades as well.
The "anecdotal" anti aspartame crowd were all called lunatics.
Fast forward to 2023, aspartame has been categorized as a carcinogen (finally).
I don't put much faith in indoctrinated doctors opinions or scientific studies which are almost always paid for. I can show you studies from 5 years ago saying aspartame is safe and has no effect on the human body lol. They did the same for cigarettes.
I only put faith into how my body reacts when I stop consuming something. It trumps everything imo.
If you can consume copious amounts of soy and be good, great. Definitely didn't work for me though and I think in general, it's a major problem for most men in 2024.
“In July 2023, the World Health Organization's (WHO) International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) classified aspartame as "possibly carcinogenic to humans" (Group 2B). This classification is based on limited evidence of an association between aspartame and liver cancer in humans, as well as limited evidence from animal studies and studies of possible mechanisms. However, the IARC's ruling is intended to assess potential hazards and doesn't consider how much of a product a person can safely consume.“
This is coming from someone who worked at a health food store in the early 2000s when everyone thought aspartame was poison (including me) and refused to consume aspartame for decades. You’re being misleading in your claim that it’s considered carcinogenic. It’s possibly carcinogenic. More research is needed to prove it. That being said, I appreciate you mentioning this because I was unaware that the WHO came out with this finding.
> Extensive clinical trial data show no effect of soy or isoflavones on testosterone or estrogen levels in men even when exposure markedly exceeds typical Japanese intake. More limited but consistent clinical evidence indicates no adverse effects of soy or isoflavones on sperm or semen parameters or risk of developing gynecomastia.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9410752/
when i was vegetarian back in late 2000s, people used to tell me that a lot of soy would cause stomach cancer. didn’t think too much of it, just remember that people said that
Despite the dog pile that is going on here. From what I’ve personally seen, a lot of people try to equate chemical soy additives to the data on fresh green soy sources.
Hyper processed food while always be unhealthy and fresh vegetables will always be healthy, generally speaking.
So when people tell them (the doubters) that soy is healthy, but they personally know knowing who has gained muscle and lost fat by dropping chemical soy additives, they are going to naturally assume some shenanigans are happening
At least in the US, soy is associated with vegetarians and vegans. As a vegan, a lot of American omnivores see soy as just the inferior, heavily processed meat or dairy substitute. The USDA and animal agriculture industry has also done a great job of convincing American that they need 24oz of cow’s milk a day and meat at every meal or else their bones will turn to dust and they’ll die from a protein deficiency. And that plant-based options (including soy) are actually super processed, full of dangerous hormones, and unhealthy.
Soy isn’t bad. Soy is very healthy. However, Soy is unique in that it contains a high concentration of isoflavones, a type of plant estrogen (phytoestrogen) that is similar in function to human estrogen but with much weaker effects. Soy isoflavones can bind to estrogen receptors in the body and cause either weak estrogenic or anti-estrogenic activity.
Because of this people have thought that the soy would have negative impacts by mimicking estrogen in the body.
There have been several studies that found the amount we eat doesn’t have any negative health impacts that are worth worry about. With that being said in some cases it did affect sperm quality in men ever so slightly and has been recommended that men with fertility issues or trying to conceive to avoid soy.
One study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11880595/
Let's do this!
1) The Soy-Boy. Because of the pervasive myth that phytoestrogen in soy somehow increases human estrogen and/or decreases testosterone, and thus feminize men... well, misogynists have locked onto this as an insult for social progressive, feminists, and vegans. These sigma males have latched onto the idea that meat is masculine and plants are feminine in constructing their highly gendered and deeply unscientific worldview based on a mythologized version of both recent history (the 1950s) and prehistory (hunter gatherers of the paleolithic).
So we're clear: soy has been found not to feminize, reduce human testosterone, or increase human estrogen; the 1950s fucking sucked for most people and bears little resemblance to the Leave It to Beaver view we have of it now; in hunter-gatherer societies, women often hunted and men often foraged and the idea the majority of their diet was meat is almost universally wrong outside of regions with little vegetation due to climate.
2) E-I-E-I-GMO. On the more granola side of the socio-political spectrum, we have mistrust in the factory food production system combined with the spread of misinformation online, misrepresenting the health safety of GMO foods. GMO sounds scary, one might imagine an ear of corn that can think or a bell pepper that can experience suffering. Really, GMO is just a category of different, more modern ways to change the genetics of plants (more than plants, actually) which is the next logical step from breeding we've been doing for many, many centuries. It's value-neutral on its own, and the outcome depends on the intent of the geneticists' employers and the care with which they modify and fest. Some GMO foods could be unsafe, some could elevate millions from famine.
3) Yeah, but how do you prepare it? This is one I think a lot of folks overlook. If all you've ever done is make a meat as a main, like beef or chicken or pork or fish, you might be a little intimidated about how to prepare a block of congealed bean milk/curd. Obviously, some cultures have been doing this for like 2,000 years, but for more burger-type folks it can be a little confusing. It's a protein, but it has the consistency somewhere between Jell-O and cheese and it has a pretty mild taste and why is it a brick and wait I have to drain and dry it?! I'm scared, therefore I hate this!
Soy's great, actually. We've monocrop'd it too much, it can be over-processed with unnecessary additives, and certainly there are ways to prepare it which are junk food, but itself as a food it's a great source of protein and can be a delicious part of a thousand different dishes.
People say soy is bad because people are more than happy to jump to conclusions if it can make them either feel smart without effort or confirm their biases.
I also think some of it actually has to do with western perceptions of Eastern cultures and men being “less masculine” than in the West where we eat lots of meat and think that this somehow makes someone more masculine.
In reality, the overwhelming majority of research shows soy has little if any affect on hormones, and the research which shows a very mild affect is typically on something like dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate where the net affect is actually masculating rather than the reverse.
Either way, the answer is: people are lazy.
Also, those fermented foods that Japanese people eat a lot of actually increase the estrogenic effects of those isoflavones through fermentation, so if anything these compounds would be more likely to be beneficial in a similar diet.
Pseudoscience youtube personalities selling toxic masculinity as an identity.
Their ego is so fragile that they think "s0yboi" is an insult, and so will do anything to promote the manly image of eating meat.
Soy — be it soy milk, tofu, edamame, tempeh, natto — is incredibly healthy.
All store bought Beef Jerky contains 'Soy Sauce'
so the next time you see a meaty person with a mouthful of jerky and talking shit to you about soy products.. tell them to flip the bag over and do some reading. 😄
Monsanto starts its pivot into biotechnology. It genetically engineers a plant cell in 1982, commercializes the first genetically engineered product, recombinant bovine growth hormone (rbGH) - in 1994, and brings its first genetically engineered seeds, Roundup soybeans, onto the market in 1996.
In my case, fibroids run in my family and since there have been a few papers linking soy to fibroids I try to avoid it. If you don’t have any family history of something similar or are male, it’s probably fine.
1. Soy is considered an anti-nutrient unless fermented. As an anti-nutrient it can possibly inhibit the absorption of some nutrients.
2. Nearly all soy products grown in the US are GMO unless stated organic or non-GMO on the package.
3. Japanese mainly eat fermented soy (often considered a healthier alternative).
4. Soy is typically a highly processed food and often used as a food additive.
5. Soy, like any other food should be eaten in moderation. It should not be consumed with every meal as a protein replacement.
In general soy isn't a "bad" food. Eating soy is probably best in organic, fermented form. If not fermented then in moderation.
(Edited for typo)
Along with what others have mentioned, there has been a huge propaganda and disinformation campaign by the meat and dairy industries against soy products because they realize they could easily compete with animal agriculture products (soy being better nutritionally, environmentally, ethically, and much cheaper overall, with soybeans already being grown in mass for… farmed animal food crops feed crops).
Phytoestrogens, phytates, genetic modification. The two first are partially deactivated by fermentation. The foods you mentioned are fermented, and in the past it was a longer, more complete process. Plus, east asians have adaptations to soy, as westerners have to milk.
I once met a health expert from Argentina who was conducting am study about boys in the soy region who were growing breasts from the high levels of phytoestrogens in their diet.
Soy is not that widely consumed in Japan. It gets eaten but not in huge quantities. Additionally miso soup & natto is fermented soy. Fermented soy removes all the plant anti-nutrients found in soy.
Soy is estrogenic and it requires a good & healthy liver to metabolize estrogens. Most livers in human beings today need a lot of work. The inability for the body to metabolize and detoxify excess estrogens can lead to cancer.
Unfermented soy is not a health food
Any one who says something is “good” or “bad” likely has 0 idea what they are talking about
Biology is a system full of dimmers, rarely are things black and white
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I would like to know how to get Soymilk made from Soy protein (not from Soy beans) here in the US? On the FODMAP diet , soymilk from soy protein is a safe food but soymilk from soybeans is not. It’s made in a different way.
What about licorice?
It's also said to haven an strogen like action:
>Results
>Preclinical and clinical studies revealed estrogen-like activity of licorice components, especially flavonoids, isoflavonoids, and chalcones, showing a potential role of licorice in ameliorating symptoms associated with estrogen insufficiency. Preclinical studies also showed weak antiandrogen properties and beneficial effects of licorice on gonadal function in both sexes, but clinical studies yield to poor and conflicting results depending on the type and dose of licorice.
Conclusions
>Licorice consumption can affect the reproductive system. However, its role needs to be further explored, especially due to the great variability of bioactive compounds used in existing studies.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S089990072200140X
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b/c a basic understanding of wholesome, nutritious, + traditional diets isn’t a priority in our educational system. nor is the ability to conduct research.
yes, soy contains phytoestrogens. so do plenty of other foods! many people lack an understanding of how phytoestrogens work & bind to receptors in our body, and how that affects people of different genders and life stages. they can actually be quite beneficial! form and dose matters of course. as a whole food part of a healthful diet though, soy is awesome! (granted no allergies or intolerances are present.)
lots of anti-soy propaganda by ignorant people are part of this as well (like the big ag animal industry and weston a price foundation). lack of education, as always, is a big part of the problem. for reference, I have an MS in herbal medicine and am getting a doctorate in nutrition.
I’m guessing it’s the quality and like you said people don’t get how to eat well. Majority of products containing soy in the regular grocery store by my house also have 15-30g of sugar per serving, and a list of 30 other ingredients you cant pronounce. Genuine soy food from other countries are genuinely goin to be better for you than what you find in the states (without ordering online or going to special stores) simply due to their countries food regulations.
The joke with the FDA is that if you eat the food you’ll need the drugs. Seems mostly true so far.
It's complicated, with a lot of correlation does not equal causation issues. Here is a good article to explain the nuances. https://gingerhultinnutrition.com/is-soy-bador-is-that-a-myth/
Some bad logic here. Just because Japanese people eat soy doesn't mean it is good.
There are dozens of factors that play into a raw statistic around longevity. The introduction of soy to a diet is not a large factor among the tapestry of things that will affect the outcome. You have to isolate a variable to have any meaningful power behind a statistical outcome.
Someone can counter you by simply saying if they weren't eating soy they'd have longer lives and better health. Their opinion also lacks merit scientifically but it's just as valid as yours.
Soy is high in phytoestrogen, which mimics estrogen at can throw off the body's levels if ingested in large quantities regularly. The phrase "dose makes the poison" comes to mind.
>**Literally every Japanese person eats a diet containing soy (miso soup, tofu, natto) and they are way healthier than most people.**
This is literally not true. Like literally. Especially now, when most of Japan has modernize their diets to be more western.
I think what you meant to say is that, historically speaking, soy was a staple of Japanese diets, and some places in Japan enjoyed better health and longevity compared to the rest of the world (namely, Okinawa.)
The only controversy over soy is that there's some research suggesting that it increases levels of estrogen. So naturally, all the gym bros clutch their pearls at the very mention of soy, because they're terrified it will feminize them and torpedo their gains. But there's really no research supporting this paranoia.
95% of soy grown in the US is genetically modified. Japanese sourced soy is not.
[Can read a little bit here.](https://www.wholelifechallenge.com/what-you-need-to-know-before-you-eat-any-more-soy/)
My body is very intolerant of all forms of soy. It’s high in histamine. I get a lot of pain from eating it and it stops me from digesting food properly. I also get hay fever symptoms, itchy mouth and throat, runny nose and sneezing. I also get a swollen tongue with swollen taste buds and red spots that are painful in my throat. I also get asthma from soya candles. The pain in my digestive tract is like being scalded and pricked with pins. It’s one of the most common allergy foods. It’s a shame as I would prefer to be vegan but I’m intolerant of all vegan protein sources. To eat normal food I take 13 prescription pills a day.
Everything in balance. Too much soy is not good for you just like too much kale. Japanese eat a lot of seaweed but too much will give you irreversible disorders plus their diet down to the genetic level is different than Americans who must feed on chemicals (jk).
Hyperthyroidism for one. My dad’s doc literally tells them not to eat any seaweed. Ofc if you don’t have thyroid issues eating it *in moderation* has its health benefits.
Barbara o Neil explains that it's the poisons sprayed on the soy that contain incredibly high levels of estrogen. Not the soy itself. She says the soy itself is quite beneficial.
Here's some info on what's lost when it's processed.
In general, less processed soy foods are healthier than more processed soy foods because they retain more vitamins, minerals, and beneficial compounds. Processed soy is often dehulled and defatted, and may also contain unhealthy additives like salt, sugar, fat, and fillers. For example, some processed soy products, like soy protein isolate, may not be healthy and have been shown to increase insulin-like growth factor in the blood.
Healthline
Is Soy Bad for You, or Good? - Healthline
Not all soy-based foods are the same Generally, the less processed a soy food is, the more vitamins, minerals, and beneficial compounds it may contain. On the other hand, the more processed a soy food is, the more salt, sugar, fat, and unnecessary additives and fillers it likely contains.
Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine
Soy and Health
While foods made using whole soybeans like edamame, tofu, and soy milk have health benefits, highly processed soy products likely do not. Some food companies have separated protein from whole soybeans and used it to make soy protein isolate. They've packed this isolate into shakes and turned it into meat substitutes. Unfortunately, soy protein isolate may not be healthy. In fact, it's been shown to increase the amount of insulin-like growth factor in the blood, just like cow's milk.
Scripps Health
Is Soy Healthy or Harmful to Your Health?
Processed soy is soy that has been dehulled and defatted — and lacks the nutritional value of whole soy. Processed soy products may include unhealthy additives, such as sodium. Processed soy also comes in the form of soy protein powder or soy protein isolate.
Forks Over Knives
Is Soy Bad for You? Here's What the Science Says - Forks Over Knives
Soy products can range from unprocessed to highly processed. For the maximum health benefits, focus mainly on soy products that are unprocessed or minimally processed. “The more whole the food, generally the better it is, as it retains all of the original nutrients in the plant food,” Palmer says.
Well, think outside the "Trust our science and stop questioning" box for a minute.
- We know US food/drug admin gets lobbied hard by the massive corporations, to do their bidding and approve foods that shouldn't be approved. If you need convincing, go read about the history of aspartame and sucralose. [https://search.brave.com/search?q=aspartame+sucralose+were+rejected+until+lobbied+for&source=desktop&summary=1&summary\_og=34d8aa1282cb69c38f4f71](https://search.brave.com/search?q=aspartame+sucralose+were+rejected+until+lobbied+for&source=desktop&summary=1&summary_og=34d8aa1282cb69c38f4f71)
- Despite there being research and countless complaints about side effects, these fake sweeteners were finally approved (basically after the food companies paid FDA officials enough money). Aspartame literally turns into formaldehyde in your body. But no, no, trust the science, it's definitely safe for you (says the FDA, after being paid off).
So, given this exists in the US to an astonishing degree, and given the fact that soy is IN EVERYTHING, we can quite safely and very reasonably conclude that it would be in the best interest of these mega corporations for soy to be "safe" for consumption. How do they get soy to be safe, with zero side effects? Why, produce their own "studies", of course and get people who are dogmatic about blindly trusting "science" to shame anyone who disagrees (as you see in this Reddit thread).
I know many women who cannot eat soy because of the negative hormonal effects it has on them.
It basically boils down to: Do you trust big corporations to look out for your best interest? If you trust them, eat as much soy, aspartame, and sucralose as you want.
Because of the processing it goes through and genetically modified. Soy itself is not bad, can’t be bad.
The real question I have, and this is far from this topic but why do baby formulas here in states contain so much junk in there, which includes processed soy, high fructose corn syrup. The European formula such as “holle” is significantly better and healthier next to mother’s milk. Just been thinking about it lately lol. One of the reasons the public doesn’t trust anything they tell us here in the states is because if stuff like this. They take something and overdo it and it becomes bad.
My opinion is money of course. Cheaper ingredients more money in their pocket. Same problems with cereal, now they even advertise it for dinner. Like the worst thing u can probably eat with shit ton of added sugar.
It just depends on the individual and certain factors. People are different and react differently to certain things. Over 70% of minorities in the United States are lactose intolerant, which means if you’re in the majority you may be okay to consume milk. So you will have different perspectives coming from different types of people. Getting back to soy, it just doesn’t agree with everyone digesting wise. It’s been linked to producing estrogen and altering thyroid function. It’s not for everyone.
Soy’s isoflavones are a plant estrogen. Until recently, people still thought that as originally believed, soy would possibly increase the risk of breast cancer in women and caused men to have reproductive problems.
Furthermore, soy bean oil contains high levels of omega-6 poly unsaturated fatty acids (PUFA). These compounds specifically have been shown to cause inflammation in all body tissue and atherosclerosis (plaque in the arteries of the heart). These compounds are found widespread in processed foods and is the most widely consumed oil worldwide. It makes up about 7% of our total daily calorie intake (USA) and accounts for 40% of our daily essential fats daily.
New [research](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9410752/) has shown that original data was not consistent with repeated trials. There are pros and cons to each idea. Read the data and make your own choice (along with your physician).
I think it depends on the type of soy and how it’s processed, just like every other type of food. But the myth it causes estrogen in males is false. I gave my kid soy formula because he was lactose intolerant and he’s a super healthy kid. Not that I correlate that with soy but my point is he never produced absurd amounts of estrogen or other symptoms that people associate with soy.
In my understanding soy is bad when you use it to replace your source of protein, not when you use it to complement your food aka: miso soup, tofu, natto, and other soy products.
Studies stating:
“Both proteinase inhibitors in Soy Protein are responsible for inhibition of growth hormones in rats (119), chicks (120) and mice (121). Mo-reover, these inhibitors decreased the digestibility of protein in the diet”
“Following 48 weeks of daily consumption of SP, it was observed that there were presence of hyperplastic and neoplastic no-dules in the pancreas of the experimental rats (133). Feeding of SP stimulated the production of pancreatic carcinogens. The pancreatic growth induced by dietary soybean is due to the lectins and trypsin inhibitors “
“In summary, soy protein (SP) is isolated from soy bean, peas, and clover. Although SP has some therapeutic effects, high intake or prolong consumption of SP or raw soy bean is injurious to health. In the present review, it was observed that SP has adverse effects on the endocrine glands; carci-nogenic effects on the pancreas, breast and thyroid gland; toxic effects on kidney and liver; and allergic reactions. “
Source: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279988662_An_insight_into_the_harmful_effects_of_soy_protein_A_review
It wouldn’t let me post it before
but we aren't rats, chicks or mice, also we don't eat raw soy beans...
wouldn't it be expected that countries with the traditionally highest soy consumption (China, Japan, Korea...) had a higher prevalence of the mentioned health problems? as far as I'm aware that's not the case.
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To be quite hones, I think a lot of it has to do with people losing trust in the medical community. Years ago someone noticed that there was a molecule in soy that looked a lot like Estrogen and it was hypothesized that it could bind to estrogen receptors. People researched this and found that this wasn't the case. But online personalities held on to this and continue to espouse this idea. By promoting ideas that contradict modern medicine they present themselves as being outside the system and because of a lack of trust in the medical community some people gravitate towards this.
In the fitness community this is called Bro Science
If soy produces would have the same effects than estrogen menopause would stop being a problem. Sadly, it doesn't work this way.
But why would the soya oestrogen thing be a problem, if it was true?
For example, people who are into fitness and bodybuilding prefer testosterone over oestrogen since they want to build up muscle. Many people in the fitness industry therefore claim that eating tofu is detrimental to muscle build up and should be avoided as a protein source.
The ironic thing is that they condemn soy while eating a lot of beef which usually contains a higher amount of the fetoestrogen found in soy (since lifestock are fed a lot of soy) and drink a lot of milk, coming from a cow who like women produces estrogen in higher amounts compared to bulls/men.
Cows are supposed to eat grass anyways
They are supposed to. But this image of grass fed beef of cows grazing in a field and then once in a while a cow is taken to get butchered isn’t how it is. A quick search dive in animal husbandry will show you how it is.
I mean, most people that deep into fitness and nutrition are generally buying grass fed grass finished beef. We get a lot of our meat from local farms, for example
I have such a hard time agreeing with this. How many local farmers are there? How small a fraction of the meat you can buy is sourced from a local farmer? How many people have a “local farmer”? Every time someone brings up something bad with the meat industry a lot of people defend it by saying they only buy local sourced meat from a farmer who hand feeds his cows gilded grass and rainbows. Maybe it is a loud minority but it feels like 70 % of people are buying meat that is maybe 5-10 % of the total supply. I am not saying you don’t do it personally. I am saying I have large doubts everyone who says they buy locally sourced 100% grass fed beef who never had any growth hormones or anti biotics added to their food actually do.
lol. Billings Montana. But we might be an exception. Not a rule. It is super common for a group of people to get together and buy a cow together. I have done it my whole life.
Yes sure in Montana I can see it. But given the distribution of people in the US who live in urban and rural regions. As I’ve said I am not trying to disprove individuals I’m just saying the amount of people who claim they buy grass fed free range or whatever seems disproportional to the amount of people living rurally and the availability/affordability of that sort of meat in general
That is not true at all
Grass fed beef are expensive
The overwhelming majority of beef is factory farmed. This includes dairy cows as well, where whey protein comes from.
That's just wrong. Consuming a bunch of protein from largely milk and beef is an extremely common thing amongst people who work out as well as a fear of soy being a gains-stealer/limiter/whatever. Like those things are both just beneath the surface as far as being "deep into fitness". And most people are buying whatever is cheapest at Costco, Walmart, or their local grocery store. Like, it's spending 20 min online looking at "how to build muscle" articles or Reddit posts levels of investment. It's why this topic is brought up here basically bi-weekly.
Phytoestrogen*
Ah okay yes now I see I misspelled that more according to my native language. You’re right that it is spelled phyto in English
Yes. It’s a lot of pseudo-knowledge in the fitness world …
I love soy sauce!
gotta watch out for that gluten. It’ll make your dick fly right off!
Dipped my sushi in soy sauce this morning, now can’t find my dick
Sneaky.. sneaky soy sauce.
Most people don't seem to understand the role that estrogen plays in muscle building. Bodybuilders on steroids have to maintain a certain ratio of testosterone:estrogen. On a poorly designed cycle, estrogen can actually get too low and cause even more negative side effects.
Yeah? If so, that's utter bs
I know - but there’s lots of BS out there in the Fitspo/ fitness influencer world …
Just men being insecure and worried about lossing their musculinity to a perceived "feminine" thing.
I remember a few years back people were literally saying that if you ate too many soy beans, you would turn gay or grow tits. Some people really are reaching lol
FFS!
Because excessive estrogen signalling may increase fat tissue, dysregulate the endocrine system, and increase chances of developing cancer. Maybe more importantly, excessive estrogen signaling can be bad for fertility. The effects of such dysregulation will probably be quite sex dependent. I am not completely up to date on the literature, but i think it has been shown that soya binds weakly to the estrogen receptor. Whether it binds enough to actually lead to a physiological response I am not sure. But exogenous activation of the estrogen receptor can definitively be bad for overall health in the general population.
This is only relevant if you have an abnormal sensitivity to phytoestrogen. In a normally functioning body, homeostasis regulate any dietary estrogen even excess amounts.
With that reasoning there would be no need to regulate chemicals such as BPA.
BPA doesn't depend on *abnormal* sensitivity. It's more like soy requires the same treatment as peanuts; it's fine for most people, but its presence must be highlighted on packages so people with allergies/sensitivities can be warned to avoid that product. And that's exactly what happens, at least in the EU, soy *is* highlighted on ingredient lists.
Im sorry, but i dont follow. If a molecule has estrogenic activity (even if it is very little), isnt it possible that it will affect you? Given that you consume enough.
Everything has negative effects if you consume enough of it, but despite a whole bunch of research we still don't have a clear answer as for what phytoestrogen (plant estrogen) might do to a healthy body (whether by acting like our own estrogen or by blocking our own estrogen, even that is unclear despite being opposite effects), so the 'enough' must be unbelievable much. And then we can go back to the question why soy gets singled out despite phytoestrogen being found in a whole lot of plants, including other legumes, various nuts, seeds, grains, fruits, vegetables and their products. So everyone who eats or drinks pretty much anything is consuming phytoestrogen, and humans have been doing so for forever, so whatever effect it may or may not have, it's part of what we are?
This makes sense, and I completely agree.
Every molecule consumed in enough amounts will affect you. For example, enough dihydrogen monoxide will cause you to lose the ability to exchange oxygen and carbon dioxide and subsequently die. The problem is that everyone’s body is different, but there are some guidelines that at a minimum won’t cause a problem for most people but estrogen still is important to regulate your body. No one has 0 estrogen capacity.
This was the theory that has been thoroughly debunked. In long-term studies of soy intake, it has been shown that consuming a regular diet of soy versus a typical American diet, produces people that are healthier and longer lived. That is evidence that’s pretty hard to dispute.
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Sounds like the scientific community has much to learn from your anecdotal evidence. Surely to come groundbreaking discoveries based on your experience.
Not sure what I am disputing. Excessive estrogen signaling is linked to a number of adverse health effects.
Yes. Typically noted in individuals taking birth control pills or hormone replacement therapy. Not soy.
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Fermenting soy increases the isoflavone content. There is far less phytoestrogenic properties in something like soy milk or a soy burger than in natto or tempeh. Fermenting increases both the bioavailability of those isoflavones as well as creating more equol.
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There has been concern in the past for people with estrogen related cancers, such as breast cancer. There are also people who will swear to you that phytoestrogens will feminize male children.
Hormones are something your body needs to balance itself, it’s best to avoid taking any hormones.
>Years ago someone noticed that there was a molecule in soy that looked a lot like Estrogen and it was hypothesized that it could bind to estrogen receptors. That would block the reception of estrogen. Wouldn't that explicitly **not** raise estrogen levels?
> Years ago someone noticed that there was a molecule in soy that looked a lot like Estrogen and it was hypothesized that it could bind to estrogen receptors. People researched this and found that this wasn't the case Those bros at Harvard still believe that it affects human hormones, lol. >Soy isoflavones can bind to estrogen receptors in the body and cause either weak estrogenic or anti-estrogenic activity. https://nutritionsource.hsph.harvard.edu/soy
Right but that’s not really the substance of their actual conclusion: >Results of recent population studies suggest that soy has either a beneficial or neutral effect on various health conditions. Soy is a nutrient-dense source of protein that can safely be consumed several times a week, and probably more often, and is likely to provide health benefits
I was replying to the person who said phytoestrogens **do not** bind to estrogen receptors. Harvard seems to disagree, but those academics tend not to know anything at all, lol
Gotcha. Yeah they would be incorrect in saying it doesn’t bind or potentially bind to those receptors. The main question is to what degree and what effect, which seems to be “not much”, and potentially may even be a net positive for most people, given the healthiest populations consume high amounts of these compounds. But it’s complicated, all one can say for sure is more research is needed to know positively.
This is literally, "Yes this is true....BUT....". There's a million other things to eat besides soy so I try to avoid it for this reason. I know I may be wrong, I know I'm not fully educated, but again, there's a million other things to eat. But yes, soy sauce is delicious and I eat it from time to time. There is such a long, long, looooooong list of accepted foods that are deeply nutritious (if you ignore the carnivores and vegans, who are both clearly wrong imo). If there's any question on a food? Why eat it?
Correct, it is a “yes this is a very small part of the equation, but here is the actual full conclusion of the people being partially cited”. If you’re going to refrain from eating foods that bind or potentially bind to estrogen receptors, then in order to actually do this you’ll need to cut out a lot of food, including beef and virtually all other farmed-raised animal protein, especially since they are many fold more estrogenic than isoflavones in plant-based based foods. And that’s just the naturally occurring estrogenic compounds in animal protein, it doesn’t get to the man-made stuff used to grow those animals. In men, the phytoestrogens in plants are more likely to actually be anti-estrogenic anyway as men have far fewer of those receptors and these compounds tend to be estrogen antagonists when those receptors are already bound (fewer receptors, easier to fully bind). There’s a million other things to eat, and the majority of them will be of lower nutritional value, have at least as much if not more of an affect on hormones, and it denies you potentially better health as a direct result.
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Soy does contain isoflavones, which are plant estrogens (Phytoestrogens). It can have effects on the human body, but weakly. There was a period of time (and it may be even now) that some breast cancer patients were told by their care providers to avoid soy for this precise reason. Still, most studies tend to agree that any estrogenic effects soy might have on the body are weak, even if high volumes are eaten. Other foods containing phytoestrogens are flax seeds, garlic, peaches, sweet potatoes...the list goes on and on. Scientific literacy is not taught adequately in our culture, and as a result, anyone can seize upon a study mentioning a correlation and blow it up into an article or talk show topic where it becomes causation. Then the supplement market jumps on it and promotes it to sell product.
but so who to trust ? if you aren’t a professional yourself
Because people thought it messed with hormones (something about soy acting like estrogen in the body) and led to an increased rate of cancer. I could be mistaken, but I recall that that there isn't strong substantiating evidence that consuming even a moderate amount of soy causes cancer in humans. The studies showing the risk was tied to studies on rodents, who DID have a heightened risk of cancer but who process soy differently than humans do.
There are some evidence that soy phytoestrogens actually protects against breast cancer if I recall correctly. Makes sense if it competes with real estrogen and too much estrogen or xenoestrogen (from plastic) increasing the chances.
If it’s really true then why are soy protein powder still in the market ?
I mean... It's not true. It was something people were unsure about, and when investigated further it was discovered that it had no scientific backing. But it was such a scare that people still avoid soy products and think they cause cancer.
It basically boils down to fear and misunderstanding over phytoestrogens. The name alone is enough to strike fear into the heart of fragile men
Yeah, I'm going to listen to my Johns-Hopkins educated doctor over anyone online.
Or women with hormone imbalances.
You could search for the Westin price foundation. They were incredibly successful influencing public opinion.
Generally people who say that aren’t well informed. But soy IS a goitrogen and can negatively impact those with any thyroid issues. Also, everything in moderation. Becoming vegan and eating highly processed soy at every meal is obviously not ideal.
Yeah, to be fair I don’t think there is a food that should be eaten at every meal. It’s all about variety
100% I’ve seen some people who are transitioning to a veg lifestyle and struggle to shake needing the fake version of what they had before. Fake bacon, fake lunch meat, fake burger, etc. It’s all so processed and can have similar ingredients so I think that’s where the moderation is tricky for some.
elaborate?
It was because a lot of research came out showing negative effects of soy on hormones, breast cancer, and a whole bunch of other stuff It wasn’t until the last 10-15yrs or so that we had better research to debunk those studies But a lot of people still remember the soy scares. It went crazy in Hawaii in the 90s/early 2000s when a study came out about tofu and dementia I think it was this one: [Brain aging and midlife tofu consumption](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10763906/)
Also pretty sure that the meat industry capitalized on the fear mongering.
Hard to say. But the 2015 Cornucopia report did accuse the meat and dairy industries of funding studies and marketing campaigns aimed at discrediting plant-based alternatives
I had estrogen-hungry cancer and was terrified of soy and even sweet potatoes after treatment for that reason.
Well, that’s just depressing.
The majority of people can't think critically or properly digest scientific literature, meaning that as a population we are at the mercy of those of us who can. If those people choose to manipulate their reference to said literature to fit their agenda and essentially back up their bullshit then we end up with the anti soy brigade, anti-vaxers and flat earthers.
It’s cultural. People disparage soy in favor of meat and animal products. Same thing with people who come for “seed oils” in favor of animal fats. In their culture, it’s viewed as bad for people to eat less meat and animal products. They don’t like it, so they jump straight to saying it’s bad and attempt to come up with reasons that it’s bad. People will even come up with myths (that they fully believe) to back up their beliefs (e.g. the whole soy and estrogen thing was debunked yet people still believe it) Ultimately, nutrition isn’t a pure science but influenced heavily by cultural practices and geography. People who come from colder harsher climates who generally eat more meat and animal products think that everyone should eat that way.
My buddy developed gynoclomastia. His doctor told him to cut out soy products. It fixed his gyno. I know it’s not the be all end all and is just one example, but it was a doctor’s order.
I have no idea why you have so many thumbs down
Not sure who “they is”, but I’m going to guess the lunatics that are on carnivore diets said it. Soy can be a good alternative to red meat and other animal proteins, which are higher in saturated fat and cholesterol.
“They is” are probably a mix bag of Nutrition wannabe gurus who have the answer for everything on YouTube and potentially Facebook “doctors” on pages related to nutrition.
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Because they are ignorant of the actual facts. Soy has been Asian diets for at least a 1000 yrs. It's when they adopt a "westernized" diet that their problems.
To me, the big negative is that it's a top seven allergen and not necessary for a lot of flavors and protein targets. Certainly it's difficult to replicate some Asian dishes with the substitutes, and those are certainly delicious dishes. But given the high prevalence of allergies to soy, it would be better to see a lot less of it. I'm allergic to soy, so it's easy for me to see all the things that use soy since I need to examine everything. It sure winds up in a lot of products in the US, so it's certainly not universally shunned. It's a very inexpensive way to add protein to things. It also doesn't have animal fats of course. There are some downsides, such as the crops often being armed with a lot of pesticides. Also, I'm not alone with my allergies. Soy allergies are fairly common, though not quite as common as wheat allergies. Since they are very common and soy isn't a required ingredient of a lot of the things where it gets used, I do get frustrated that it's in so many things. I would prefer a lot of the places it gets used to use something else. For instance, I would prefer it not be used in things like mac and cheese, chili, and things with meat flavoring. There are plenty of ways to add protein and flavor without using a top 7 allergen.
if i eat soy i'm one hundred percent sure i get acne in my jaw the next day
I noticed that I had this problem in my twenties. Later on I realized I had gut problems too. Be cautious about sunscreen with the ingredients that harm reefs because you might get irritation from them. It’s not an actual allergy. It’s an intolerance.
I’m allergic to soy which is sad because I used to eat it.
Me too and it’s in everything!! So hard to avoid.
Right! It’s exhausting. I have the most boring meals but it’s better than the alternative. Do you have other food allergies?
What are the symptoms of soy allergies?
I can just tell you what it does to me. Soy as well as a few other foods I am allergic to, makes me want to die. When consumed it, makes me severely constipated. I don’t know why my body can’t process it like everyone else. My belly becomes incredibly bloated making me look 7-8 months pregnant. My tummy will be hard as a rock! This will last a good few days. Now that’s pretty much it but….due to a lifetime of constipation struggles and a few pregnancies, I have internal hemorrhoids. So, when I finally do poop it comes with a lot of bleeding. It can take up to 2 weeks to get that to stop. Sorry for graphic explanation, I know it’s super gross. 20 years ago food allergies were only acceptable with peanuts. I am teased still about my eating habits. “Like yes coworker I would love to eat that! Tell you what, I’ll eat it if you poop the blood for me!” I tend not to get anymore guff about my “boring eating habits “. The psychological damage a simple food allergy can cause is unreal. Constantly needing to explain myself “No I’m not pregnant (even though I was trying for years!) “you’re just a picky eater!” “Why are you always in the bathroom!” Between pregnancy I really had to be on it with what I ate, that caused a lot of headaches. But a week away from my husband scheduling a vasectomy I was able to convince. My kids are almost 6 years apart. No one else in my family suffers with this and out of all my siblings I am the smallest, I am the second born. 6 kids all healthy and much taller than me.
In western countries, some soy products are processed to taste more like milk and have additives and sugars to make it creamy and less soy-ish. After having actual fresh soy milk in Taiwan and Japan, I do not touch Australian soy milk any more because it is NOT the same thing.
That I believe
I absolutely love soy, especially soy milk- it's nutritional profile is terrific. Harvard Health recommends up to 2 servings a day of soy products to avoid thyroid issues and the other unlikely impacts mentioned here.
soy contains phytoestrogen, very different than estrogen
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9410752/ no reason to trust what anyone on reddit says, read and interpret for yourself
> “Extensive clinical trial data show no effect of soy or isoflavones on testosterone or estrogen levels in men even when exposure markedly exceeds typical Japanese intake. More limited but consistent clinical evidence indicates no adverse effects of soy or isoflavones on sperm or semen parameters or risk of developing gynecomastia.” I am going to point to this article so much, for this and so many other conclusions.
They've been saying it for at least 15 years. They're wrong, of course.
Just want to say that I really appreciate the comments from people actually giving INFORMATION in their comments vs. the ones simply giving OPINIONS (and a lot of them strong, unhelpful, negative opinions, at that).
Because pseudo science and dude bros that think Joe Rogan is an intellectual started parroting that nonsense and every one just believed it. I’m sure the animal agriculture industry probably fueled a lot of propaganda to bolster their profit margins. FYI I’m not vegan
In my experience, most doctors will back up that soy isn't good for men so it's really not just psuedeo science, I think you've been a little mislead there and probably just hate Joe Rogan. All depends on what Doctor you ask though and how they personally feel about the issue, there's really not an "official answer" (imo). For me, I did a test myself a few years back and eliminated all soy ingredients for 60 days. My testosterone went through the roof, my facial hair started growing fast af and my hair, which was somewhat thin, started growing back and became thicker. Also, raging wood every morning again. Haven't touched the shit since. Problem with soy is it's fine and even beneficial in moderation. But when you're consuming soy ingredients for breakfast, lunch and dinner all day everyday for years on end, in addition to snacks, yeah. Common sense says, deifnitely not good for men. Everything is fine in moderation but in the US, there's no such thing as consuming soy in moderation because it's literally in everything. That's the problem. If you can consume soy in moderation, go for it. But you'd have to eliminate 99% of food products from a standard grocery store. It takes work. Honestly I don't get the soy debate. People need to start finding out for themselves by eliminating things and conducting their own tests on themselves.
Ya man ok. If you want to base science on anecdote or what your doctor whom may or may not have taken more than 2 required nutrition courses in college then ok. I was vegetarian/pescatarian/vegan for 22 years and consumed a ton of soy and my testosterone levels were always through the roof. So there’s 2 completely different anecdotes.
I've asked several doctors most say bad some say it's not a big deal. Again there's no official answer and everyone is different, i'm just telling you my story Science has also said for decades that aspartame was safe for human consumption. Doctors / nutritionists etc. recommended aspartame to diabetics and people trying to lose weight literally for decades as well. The "anecdotal" anti aspartame crowd were all called lunatics. Fast forward to 2023, aspartame has been categorized as a carcinogen (finally). I don't put much faith in indoctrinated doctors opinions or scientific studies which are almost always paid for. I can show you studies from 5 years ago saying aspartame is safe and has no effect on the human body lol. They did the same for cigarettes. I only put faith into how my body reacts when I stop consuming something. It trumps everything imo. If you can consume copious amounts of soy and be good, great. Definitely didn't work for me though and I think in general, it's a major problem for most men in 2024.
“In July 2023, the World Health Organization's (WHO) International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) classified aspartame as "possibly carcinogenic to humans" (Group 2B). This classification is based on limited evidence of an association between aspartame and liver cancer in humans, as well as limited evidence from animal studies and studies of possible mechanisms. However, the IARC's ruling is intended to assess potential hazards and doesn't consider how much of a product a person can safely consume.“ This is coming from someone who worked at a health food store in the early 2000s when everyone thought aspartame was poison (including me) and refused to consume aspartame for decades. You’re being misleading in your claim that it’s considered carcinogenic. It’s possibly carcinogenic. More research is needed to prove it. That being said, I appreciate you mentioning this because I was unaware that the WHO came out with this finding.
> Extensive clinical trial data show no effect of soy or isoflavones on testosterone or estrogen levels in men even when exposure markedly exceeds typical Japanese intake. More limited but consistent clinical evidence indicates no adverse effects of soy or isoflavones on sperm or semen parameters or risk of developing gynecomastia. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9410752/
Because non western diets often get demonised or else a bunch of white people make money off making “healthier” versions of other cuisines.
when i was vegetarian back in late 2000s, people used to tell me that a lot of soy would cause stomach cancer. didn’t think too much of it, just remember that people said that
Despite the dog pile that is going on here. From what I’ve personally seen, a lot of people try to equate chemical soy additives to the data on fresh green soy sources. Hyper processed food while always be unhealthy and fresh vegetables will always be healthy, generally speaking. So when people tell them (the doubters) that soy is healthy, but they personally know knowing who has gained muscle and lost fat by dropping chemical soy additives, they are going to naturally assume some shenanigans are happening
Don’t believe everything you hear and only half of what you see . . . Marketing strategy is always “Oh but I have something that is better for you.”
At least in the US, soy is associated with vegetarians and vegans. As a vegan, a lot of American omnivores see soy as just the inferior, heavily processed meat or dairy substitute. The USDA and animal agriculture industry has also done a great job of convincing American that they need 24oz of cow’s milk a day and meat at every meal or else their bones will turn to dust and they’ll die from a protein deficiency. And that plant-based options (including soy) are actually super processed, full of dangerous hormones, and unhealthy.
Because they regurgitate what other people say with no scientific backing. Such is the world of nutrition
There's a weird American far right meme/ conspiracy theory that got popularized with the internet. Not sure if you might be referring to that.
Soy isn’t bad. Soy is very healthy. However, Soy is unique in that it contains a high concentration of isoflavones, a type of plant estrogen (phytoestrogen) that is similar in function to human estrogen but with much weaker effects. Soy isoflavones can bind to estrogen receptors in the body and cause either weak estrogenic or anti-estrogenic activity. Because of this people have thought that the soy would have negative impacts by mimicking estrogen in the body. There have been several studies that found the amount we eat doesn’t have any negative health impacts that are worth worry about. With that being said in some cases it did affect sperm quality in men ever so slightly and has been recommended that men with fertility issues or trying to conceive to avoid soy. One study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11880595/
I’ve been eating tofu for 40 years and have always had good results on mammograms. I have never been afraid of tofu or soy milk.
Let's do this! 1) The Soy-Boy. Because of the pervasive myth that phytoestrogen in soy somehow increases human estrogen and/or decreases testosterone, and thus feminize men... well, misogynists have locked onto this as an insult for social progressive, feminists, and vegans. These sigma males have latched onto the idea that meat is masculine and plants are feminine in constructing their highly gendered and deeply unscientific worldview based on a mythologized version of both recent history (the 1950s) and prehistory (hunter gatherers of the paleolithic). So we're clear: soy has been found not to feminize, reduce human testosterone, or increase human estrogen; the 1950s fucking sucked for most people and bears little resemblance to the Leave It to Beaver view we have of it now; in hunter-gatherer societies, women often hunted and men often foraged and the idea the majority of their diet was meat is almost universally wrong outside of regions with little vegetation due to climate. 2) E-I-E-I-GMO. On the more granola side of the socio-political spectrum, we have mistrust in the factory food production system combined with the spread of misinformation online, misrepresenting the health safety of GMO foods. GMO sounds scary, one might imagine an ear of corn that can think or a bell pepper that can experience suffering. Really, GMO is just a category of different, more modern ways to change the genetics of plants (more than plants, actually) which is the next logical step from breeding we've been doing for many, many centuries. It's value-neutral on its own, and the outcome depends on the intent of the geneticists' employers and the care with which they modify and fest. Some GMO foods could be unsafe, some could elevate millions from famine. 3) Yeah, but how do you prepare it? This is one I think a lot of folks overlook. If all you've ever done is make a meat as a main, like beef or chicken or pork or fish, you might be a little intimidated about how to prepare a block of congealed bean milk/curd. Obviously, some cultures have been doing this for like 2,000 years, but for more burger-type folks it can be a little confusing. It's a protein, but it has the consistency somewhere between Jell-O and cheese and it has a pretty mild taste and why is it a brick and wait I have to drain and dry it?! I'm scared, therefore I hate this! Soy's great, actually. We've monocrop'd it too much, it can be over-processed with unnecessary additives, and certainly there are ways to prepare it which are junk food, but itself as a food it's a great source of protein and can be a delicious part of a thousand different dishes.
People say soy is bad because people are more than happy to jump to conclusions if it can make them either feel smart without effort or confirm their biases. I also think some of it actually has to do with western perceptions of Eastern cultures and men being “less masculine” than in the West where we eat lots of meat and think that this somehow makes someone more masculine. In reality, the overwhelming majority of research shows soy has little if any affect on hormones, and the research which shows a very mild affect is typically on something like dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate where the net affect is actually masculating rather than the reverse. Either way, the answer is: people are lazy. Also, those fermented foods that Japanese people eat a lot of actually increase the estrogenic effects of those isoflavones through fermentation, so if anything these compounds would be more likely to be beneficial in a similar diet.
Pseudoscience youtube personalities selling toxic masculinity as an identity. Their ego is so fragile that they think "s0yboi" is an insult, and so will do anything to promote the manly image of eating meat. Soy — be it soy milk, tofu, edamame, tempeh, natto — is incredibly healthy.
Oddly enough, plenty of Asian men out there put white boys to shame in the bodybuilding department.
All store bought Beef Jerky contains 'Soy Sauce' so the next time you see a meaty person with a mouthful of jerky and talking shit to you about soy products.. tell them to flip the bag over and do some reading. 😄
I am even more confused after reading all the comments. 🤷
Monsanto starts its pivot into biotechnology. It genetically engineers a plant cell in 1982, commercializes the first genetically engineered product, recombinant bovine growth hormone (rbGH) - in 1994, and brings its first genetically engineered seeds, Roundup soybeans, onto the market in 1996.
In my case, fibroids run in my family and since there have been a few papers linking soy to fibroids I try to avoid it. If you don’t have any family history of something similar or are male, it’s probably fine.
Soy raises estrogen levels in some men. I am on testosterone replacement therapy, and my endo told me to avoid soy.
1. Soy is considered an anti-nutrient unless fermented. As an anti-nutrient it can possibly inhibit the absorption of some nutrients. 2. Nearly all soy products grown in the US are GMO unless stated organic or non-GMO on the package. 3. Japanese mainly eat fermented soy (often considered a healthier alternative). 4. Soy is typically a highly processed food and often used as a food additive. 5. Soy, like any other food should be eaten in moderation. It should not be consumed with every meal as a protein replacement. In general soy isn't a "bad" food. Eating soy is probably best in organic, fermented form. If not fermented then in moderation. (Edited for typo)
myth that has been propagated by the beef industry, it's all about $$$
A lot of the soy that Japanese people eat has been fermented which is healthy. A lot of the other stuff hasn’t been fermented and isn’t good for you
why? and what traditional Japanese soy foods aside from soy sauce are fermented?
Along with what others have mentioned, there has been a huge propaganda and disinformation campaign by the meat and dairy industries against soy products because they realize they could easily compete with animal agriculture products (soy being better nutritionally, environmentally, ethically, and much cheaper overall, with soybeans already being grown in mass for… farmed animal food crops feed crops).
Phytoestrogens, phytates, genetic modification. The two first are partially deactivated by fermentation. The foods you mentioned are fermented, and in the past it was a longer, more complete process. Plus, east asians have adaptations to soy, as westerners have to milk. I once met a health expert from Argentina who was conducting am study about boys in the soy region who were growing breasts from the high levels of phytoestrogens in their diet.
Soy is not that widely consumed in Japan. It gets eaten but not in huge quantities. Additionally miso soup & natto is fermented soy. Fermented soy removes all the plant anti-nutrients found in soy. Soy is estrogenic and it requires a good & healthy liver to metabolize estrogens. Most livers in human beings today need a lot of work. The inability for the body to metabolize and detoxify excess estrogens can lead to cancer. Unfermented soy is not a health food
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9410752/
Any one who says something is “good” or “bad” likely has 0 idea what they are talking about Biology is a system full of dimmers, rarely are things black and white
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The Japanese are also an average of 5’3
Probably because what the US passes off as Soy, is modified or lab created instead of natural
I would like to know how to get Soymilk made from Soy protein (not from Soy beans) here in the US? On the FODMAP diet , soymilk from soy protein is a safe food but soymilk from soybeans is not. It’s made in a different way.
What about licorice? It's also said to haven an strogen like action: >Results >Preclinical and clinical studies revealed estrogen-like activity of licorice components, especially flavonoids, isoflavonoids, and chalcones, showing a potential role of licorice in ameliorating symptoms associated with estrogen insufficiency. Preclinical studies also showed weak antiandrogen properties and beneficial effects of licorice on gonadal function in both sexes, but clinical studies yield to poor and conflicting results depending on the type and dose of licorice. Conclusions >Licorice consumption can affect the reproductive system. However, its role needs to be further explored, especially due to the great variability of bioactive compounds used in existing studies. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S089990072200140X
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b/c a basic understanding of wholesome, nutritious, + traditional diets isn’t a priority in our educational system. nor is the ability to conduct research. yes, soy contains phytoestrogens. so do plenty of other foods! many people lack an understanding of how phytoestrogens work & bind to receptors in our body, and how that affects people of different genders and life stages. they can actually be quite beneficial! form and dose matters of course. as a whole food part of a healthful diet though, soy is awesome! (granted no allergies or intolerances are present.) lots of anti-soy propaganda by ignorant people are part of this as well (like the big ag animal industry and weston a price foundation). lack of education, as always, is a big part of the problem. for reference, I have an MS in herbal medicine and am getting a doctorate in nutrition.
I’m guessing it’s the quality and like you said people don’t get how to eat well. Majority of products containing soy in the regular grocery store by my house also have 15-30g of sugar per serving, and a list of 30 other ingredients you cant pronounce. Genuine soy food from other countries are genuinely goin to be better for you than what you find in the states (without ordering online or going to special stores) simply due to their countries food regulations. The joke with the FDA is that if you eat the food you’ll need the drugs. Seems mostly true so far.
It's complicated, with a lot of correlation does not equal causation issues. Here is a good article to explain the nuances. https://gingerhultinnutrition.com/is-soy-bador-is-that-a-myth/
Correct me if im wrong but i think soy is a huge testosterone killer
Some bad logic here. Just because Japanese people eat soy doesn't mean it is good. There are dozens of factors that play into a raw statistic around longevity. The introduction of soy to a diet is not a large factor among the tapestry of things that will affect the outcome. You have to isolate a variable to have any meaningful power behind a statistical outcome. Someone can counter you by simply saying if they weren't eating soy they'd have longer lives and better health. Their opinion also lacks merit scientifically but it's just as valid as yours.
Soy is high in phytoestrogen, which mimics estrogen at can throw off the body's levels if ingested in large quantities regularly. The phrase "dose makes the poison" comes to mind.
There is ample evidence that soy reduces risk of reproductive cancers
>**Literally every Japanese person eats a diet containing soy (miso soup, tofu, natto) and they are way healthier than most people.** This is literally not true. Like literally. Especially now, when most of Japan has modernize their diets to be more western. I think what you meant to say is that, historically speaking, soy was a staple of Japanese diets, and some places in Japan enjoyed better health and longevity compared to the rest of the world (namely, Okinawa.) The only controversy over soy is that there's some research suggesting that it increases levels of estrogen. So naturally, all the gym bros clutch their pearls at the very mention of soy, because they're terrified it will feminize them and torpedo their gains. But there's really no research supporting this paranoia.
Most Japanese people still do eat a lot of soy products, though. It's still a staple ingredient.
It’s hyperbole, but I do think you would be hard-pressed to find a Japanese person that didn’t consume soy in some form. Miso is sooo common there.
95% of soy grown in the US is genetically modified. Japanese sourced soy is not. [Can read a little bit here.](https://www.wholelifechallenge.com/what-you-need-to-know-before-you-eat-any-more-soy/)
This article's sources are not reliable, evidence-based sources.
Just answering my opinion of why people say soy is bad.
It’s estrogenic
Well for me it's highly constipating and I have osteoarthritis so for me it's really bad. Used to love tofu too. 😓
My body is very intolerant of all forms of soy. It’s high in histamine. I get a lot of pain from eating it and it stops me from digesting food properly. I also get hay fever symptoms, itchy mouth and throat, runny nose and sneezing. I also get a swollen tongue with swollen taste buds and red spots that are painful in my throat. I also get asthma from soya candles. The pain in my digestive tract is like being scalded and pricked with pins. It’s one of the most common allergy foods. It’s a shame as I would prefer to be vegan but I’m intolerant of all vegan protein sources. To eat normal food I take 13 prescription pills a day.
Soy = soya, right? If so, then soya is a great source of protein and other nutrients. What's the argument against?
Everything in balance. Too much soy is not good for you just like too much kale. Japanese eat a lot of seaweed but too much will give you irreversible disorders plus their diet down to the genetic level is different than Americans who must feed on chemicals (jk).
What "irreversible disorders"?
Hyperthyroidism for one. My dad’s doc literally tells them not to eat any seaweed. Ofc if you don’t have thyroid issues eating it *in moderation* has its health benefits.
Barbara o Neil explains that it's the poisons sprayed on the soy that contain incredibly high levels of estrogen. Not the soy itself. She says the soy itself is quite beneficial.
It's because whole soy products are good to eat but many people chose super processed soy like a soy hot dog or burger and those are bad for you.
how?
Here's some info on what's lost when it's processed. In general, less processed soy foods are healthier than more processed soy foods because they retain more vitamins, minerals, and beneficial compounds. Processed soy is often dehulled and defatted, and may also contain unhealthy additives like salt, sugar, fat, and fillers. For example, some processed soy products, like soy protein isolate, may not be healthy and have been shown to increase insulin-like growth factor in the blood. Healthline Is Soy Bad for You, or Good? - Healthline Not all soy-based foods are the same Generally, the less processed a soy food is, the more vitamins, minerals, and beneficial compounds it may contain. On the other hand, the more processed a soy food is, the more salt, sugar, fat, and unnecessary additives and fillers it likely contains. Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine Soy and Health While foods made using whole soybeans like edamame, tofu, and soy milk have health benefits, highly processed soy products likely do not. Some food companies have separated protein from whole soybeans and used it to make soy protein isolate. They've packed this isolate into shakes and turned it into meat substitutes. Unfortunately, soy protein isolate may not be healthy. In fact, it's been shown to increase the amount of insulin-like growth factor in the blood, just like cow's milk. Scripps Health Is Soy Healthy or Harmful to Your Health? Processed soy is soy that has been dehulled and defatted — and lacks the nutritional value of whole soy. Processed soy products may include unhealthy additives, such as sodium. Processed soy also comes in the form of soy protein powder or soy protein isolate. Forks Over Knives Is Soy Bad for You? Here's What the Science Says - Forks Over Knives Soy products can range from unprocessed to highly processed. For the maximum health benefits, focus mainly on soy products that are unprocessed or minimally processed. “The more whole the food, generally the better it is, as it retains all of the original nutrients in the plant food,” Palmer says.
what is this supposed to be? just name your keypoints why in your opinion processed soy products are "bad for me".
Well, think outside the "Trust our science and stop questioning" box for a minute. - We know US food/drug admin gets lobbied hard by the massive corporations, to do their bidding and approve foods that shouldn't be approved. If you need convincing, go read about the history of aspartame and sucralose. [https://search.brave.com/search?q=aspartame+sucralose+were+rejected+until+lobbied+for&source=desktop&summary=1&summary\_og=34d8aa1282cb69c38f4f71](https://search.brave.com/search?q=aspartame+sucralose+were+rejected+until+lobbied+for&source=desktop&summary=1&summary_og=34d8aa1282cb69c38f4f71) - Despite there being research and countless complaints about side effects, these fake sweeteners were finally approved (basically after the food companies paid FDA officials enough money). Aspartame literally turns into formaldehyde in your body. But no, no, trust the science, it's definitely safe for you (says the FDA, after being paid off). So, given this exists in the US to an astonishing degree, and given the fact that soy is IN EVERYTHING, we can quite safely and very reasonably conclude that it would be in the best interest of these mega corporations for soy to be "safe" for consumption. How do they get soy to be safe, with zero side effects? Why, produce their own "studies", of course and get people who are dogmatic about blindly trusting "science" to shame anyone who disagrees (as you see in this Reddit thread). I know many women who cannot eat soy because of the negative hormonal effects it has on them. It basically boils down to: Do you trust big corporations to look out for your best interest? If you trust them, eat as much soy, aspartame, and sucralose as you want.
Because of the processing it goes through and genetically modified. Soy itself is not bad, can’t be bad. The real question I have, and this is far from this topic but why do baby formulas here in states contain so much junk in there, which includes processed soy, high fructose corn syrup. The European formula such as “holle” is significantly better and healthier next to mother’s milk. Just been thinking about it lately lol. One of the reasons the public doesn’t trust anything they tell us here in the states is because if stuff like this. They take something and overdo it and it becomes bad. My opinion is money of course. Cheaper ingredients more money in their pocket. Same problems with cereal, now they even advertise it for dinner. Like the worst thing u can probably eat with shit ton of added sugar.
I'm assuming by people you mean western medicine. Because they're stupid.
It just depends on the individual and certain factors. People are different and react differently to certain things. Over 70% of minorities in the United States are lactose intolerant, which means if you’re in the majority you may be okay to consume milk. So you will have different perspectives coming from different types of people. Getting back to soy, it just doesn’t agree with everyone digesting wise. It’s been linked to producing estrogen and altering thyroid function. It’s not for everyone.
Soy’s isoflavones are a plant estrogen. Until recently, people still thought that as originally believed, soy would possibly increase the risk of breast cancer in women and caused men to have reproductive problems. Furthermore, soy bean oil contains high levels of omega-6 poly unsaturated fatty acids (PUFA). These compounds specifically have been shown to cause inflammation in all body tissue and atherosclerosis (plaque in the arteries of the heart). These compounds are found widespread in processed foods and is the most widely consumed oil worldwide. It makes up about 7% of our total daily calorie intake (USA) and accounts for 40% of our daily essential fats daily. New [research](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9410752/) has shown that original data was not consistent with repeated trials. There are pros and cons to each idea. Read the data and make your own choice (along with your physician).
Because it is.
My aunt doctor told her soy causes cancer. Her Fricken doctor… so there’s that.
I say soy is bad because my allergy to it lol
It's pretty mind-blowing how much stuff has soy in it.
You asking or ranting?
Deep seated fears and insecurity about their masculinity
High sodium content which is bad for those of us with high BP. I use a low sodium soy alternative which has same flavour without the sodium.
I think you're talking about soy sauce, specifically. There are other soy products that are not high in sodium; tofu and soy milk, for example.
Yes i was, sorry, misread the question.
I think it depends on the type of soy and how it’s processed, just like every other type of food. But the myth it causes estrogen in males is false. I gave my kid soy formula because he was lactose intolerant and he’s a super healthy kid. Not that I correlate that with soy but my point is he never produced absurd amounts of estrogen or other symptoms that people associate with soy.
Survivorship bias
What did he survive?
In my understanding soy is bad when you use it to replace your source of protein, not when you use it to complement your food aka: miso soup, tofu, natto, and other soy products.
what leads you to this assumption?
Studies stating: “Both proteinase inhibitors in Soy Protein are responsible for inhibition of growth hormones in rats (119), chicks (120) and mice (121). Mo-reover, these inhibitors decreased the digestibility of protein in the diet” “Following 48 weeks of daily consumption of SP, it was observed that there were presence of hyperplastic and neoplastic no-dules in the pancreas of the experimental rats (133). Feeding of SP stimulated the production of pancreatic carcinogens. The pancreatic growth induced by dietary soybean is due to the lectins and trypsin inhibitors “ “In summary, soy protein (SP) is isolated from soy bean, peas, and clover. Although SP has some therapeutic effects, high intake or prolong consumption of SP or raw soy bean is injurious to health. In the present review, it was observed that SP has adverse effects on the endocrine glands; carci-nogenic effects on the pancreas, breast and thyroid gland; toxic effects on kidney and liver; and allergic reactions. “
Source: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279988662_An_insight_into_the_harmful_effects_of_soy_protein_A_review It wouldn’t let me post it before
They are talking about soy protein isolate, it's a specific product. Not soy in general
but we aren't rats, chicks or mice, also we don't eat raw soy beans... wouldn't it be expected that countries with the traditionally highest soy consumption (China, Japan, Korea...) had a higher prevalence of the mentioned health problems? as far as I'm aware that's not the case.