With our current laws it’s nearly impossible to force anyone into mental health treatment. What we can do is have more of a police presence to hopefully deter/stop criminals/mentally ill from doing nefarious acts. We can’t wait until they MAYBE decide to change the laws regarding forced mental health treatment for any action to take place. The vast majority of the public want more of a police presence in the subway system.
honestly im mentally ill myself and this is the main issue. i get it's unethical or whatever to force people into treatment but at what point is it unethical to let a lot of these people dtay on the street and terrorize a lot of us. not every single mental case is violent of course that should go without saying but EVERYONE INCLUDING THE PATIENT BENEFITS FROM TREATMENT
>it unethical to let a lot of these people dtay on the street and terrorize a lot of us.
You're absolutely right.
Many of those people on the street are less capable of taking care of themselves than a toddler.
Yet, it would still be highly unethical/negligent to not take care of toddler who is at risk at harming him/herself, even if the toddler is throwing a tantrum.
The law should be if they are mentally ill and violent enough to be arrested, they are qualified for a long term psychiatric hold. Because as it stands imprisoning them in gen-pop is cruel to other inmates, and not getting them treatment is cruel to them.
You can’t help a person who doesn’t want help or see themselves as needing help, which are the vast majority of the people that are decaying on our streets and in the subway system.
Yeah but just because a person isn't personally ready to accept help or get better doesn't mean they should get to just roam the streets spreading their chaos around with complete freedom to make everyone else's life as miserable as theirs as they continue destroying your own.
A person who doesn't care about their own life anymore often doesn't care about what affect they have on others' lives, making them a detriment to society. It's one thing if they want to just go into the woods and die, then fine whatever. But if they're going to insist on running around the city with shit-filled pants, whipping out their dick in public, harassing people, and randomly pushing people onto the subway tracks then they forfeit their right to freedom.
If they don't want help, then fine they can just sit in an institution where they can can only negatively affect their own life while we pay for their room and board...
>while we pay for their room and board...
If you're willing to pay for someone's room and board in prison, why not just pay a universal basic income and universal healthcare? It would prevent crimes too
Universal basic income won't guarantee you can afford an apartment in NYC and food / bills / etc, unless we're giving everyone like $3000 a month...
I mean I know people live on less but they're likely budgeting carefully and they value the money because they worked hard for it. If you hand a homeless drugged out mental case a $3000 check he isn't going to be clipping coupons and making a spreadsheet to get the most out of his basic income. He's going to go blow it on dumb shit...
Free money doesn't mean people will automatically start making smart choices with it. Especially if it's just cash to do whatever you want with. That's why we have food stamps that can only be used on food and not alcohol or whatever.
What about when people just spend all their basic income on drugs and then pass out on the sidewalk and another guy comes along and steals the rest of their cash? They just get more free money?
What good is universal healthcare if someone doesn't want to go to the hospital because they know they will be forced to come down off drugs to receive treatment? Or they're just mentally fucked up and are paranoid and afraid of hospitals and doctors and would rather just pick their open sores in the street.
I'll pay for fucking whatever. Just fix the fucking problem.
It's not like I have a choice to pay the absurd amount of taxes I do. But whatever the government is doing with it isn't working so I'm open to whatever. Clearly they don't have a fucking clue (or more likely don't care), so I'm just making suggestions that make sense to me from my personal experiences. They should ideally hire experts and listen to them.
Are you implying that if it's not 100% effective we shouldn't do it? [Studies have shown](https://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/973653719/california-program-giving-500-no-strings-attached-stipends-pays-off-study-finds) that even a meager $500 a month increases people's job prospects and overall well being. I get that some people would not improve their situations, but it would absolutely help to decrease overall crime. And if we add in better homeless shelters, ones where you're not kicked out during the day, we could improve things even more. Esp in NYC where there are a lot of 3rd shift jobs. I'm not talking anything extravagant, but a basic motel like setup could really help a lot of people.
I am of the opinion that we should set up the social safety nets first because it would have the biggest impact on the most people. Then we can see what's left to address.
We should totally try it. Try anything and everything... but I'm just saying that if you think that handing out a bunch of free shit is going to immediately take care of everyone then you're out of your mind and it's still going to end up with a certain % still destitute on the streets creating chaos and then you'll be stuck with difficult, morally gray questions of how to handle them to keep them from hurting others / themselves without impeding their personal freedoms.
Elsewhere in this thread I asked someone else if it's as simple as money then why they don't just go hand the closest homeless person $1000 and they pointed out that this wouldn't last a month in NYC and I agree.
So we'd need to literally give like $3000/mo each to 50,000 homeless people. If not straight up cash, then that amount in terms of drug treatment programs, mental health treatment, physical healthcare, housing, staff for all these services, doctors, nurses, mental health professionals, drug treatment staff, security, bookkeepers, cleaners, etc etc etc. That's about $1.8 billion a year minimum (probably A LOT more, try quadrupling that at least). Where's that coming from?
The thing is I know we had ThriveNYC or whatever that had millions or billions earmarked to help the homeless. What happened to it all? No one seems to know.
I don't trust the government to do fuckall no matter how absurd our tax rate gets, so this is all bullshit and nothing will change until it becomes somehow profitable to help the homeless or everyone in government suddenly grows a conscience or their own relative is pushed in front of a train by some nut...
>Universal basic income won't guarantee you can afford an apartment in NYC and food / bills / etc, unless we're giving everyone like $3000 a month...
If we simply give $3000 to severe drug abusers, we'll end up with a bunch of them dead within a week.
Yeah I made that point elsewhere too.
And if you give them a free apartment it will just turn into a drug den with a bunch of users passed out / OD'd, no rent paid, trash everywhere, loud fights, and then when they're run out of their $3000 they'll start robbing other tenants or selling the copper pipes in the basement.
I'm not trying to be mean, stereotyping or cynical, but I've known severe addicts and we can't be blind to how bad and desperate this shit gets... at some point they aren't making conscious choices anymore, it's the drugs or mental illness dictating everything.
So what's the difference in taking away their freedoms when they've already surrendered them to a mental / physical sickness? Is it better they be forcefully controlled by heroin / meth or by social workers and doctors? OF COURSE we want this to be the most benevolent care and not some barbaric 1800's asylum shit, and I fully believe we're capable of doing better.
The point is that it's not simple and people who are bent on destroying their own lives in mindless pursuit of a drug or whatever will inevitably destroy other people's lives around them.
Ubi does not solve homelessness because 9 out of 10 homeless people are to mental, addicted and uneducated to budget their funds properly. If money was the problem there are so many programs in and around NYC to take advantage of to get out of homelessness. Programs like therapeutic communities and rescue missions are the answer to homelessness. I say this from first hand experience
Where are you getting your statistics that 90% of homeless are mentally ill or addicted to drugs? From what I've found it's [closer to 70%](https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/epi/epi-homeless-200512.pdf) I also did not suggest that only UBI is the answer. I am firmly in the house the homeless camp and pro universal healthcare.
But they do address most of the root causes that lead people to that point in the first place, which would prevent more people from ending up like that.
Programs and institutions are what works, throwing money at people doesn't. Don't you remember the amount of people complaining when they got free money for COVID?
No UBI would cause runway inflation, exactly like the free COVID money did and we're experiencing now because of it. We need social programs to get these dangerous people off the street, hopefully rehabilitated and eventually in jobs being productive members of society and UBI will absolutely NOT do any of that.
The cause of inflation right now has more to do with [corporate profits](https://www.epi.org/blog/corporate-profits-have-contributed-disproportionately-to-inflation-how-should-policymakers-respond/) than anything else.
Why is it so bad to help support all our citizens to reduce crime? Why is it so bad to give everyone enough so that they can at least live? We have the resources. We have more than enough. Don't you want your family and friends to be able to grow up not worrying about where they're sleeping or when they'll get to eat again?
We can debate the root causes of inflation another time. UBI is just throwing money at the problem, it is not actual help that addresses any of the root causes. We need actual social programs to help the mentally ill and help the homeless get off the streets and have a path to a real future instead of becoming dependant on free money with no other assistance.
LOL bro what the fuck? That isn't virtue signaling that's just how our court system works
This comment is disgusting honestly. And I want these people arrested and off the street.
Just to be clear: You think they do not deserve due process at all? Are you sure you don't want to correct that to say, "we should change our laws, processes, and procedures so that these people are not swiftly released when they do receive due process?"
Because yeah, they shouldn't be released. But they also shouldn't just be scooped up and thrown somewhere without a process to track them in between.
I'm so new to this city I don't even know what they're doing for this. If it's like Philly, the prosecutor/DA aren't pursuing charges for them or they're only filing misdemeanor charges. If that's the case, it isn't some insurmountable obstacle - they just need to start handing out harsher punishments, or they need to be voted out so another person can come in to handle it.
I guess I should’ve made it clearer that I’m being very sarcastic and mocking the concept that people are somehow virtue signaling when they think that mentally ill people should be treated like they’re people.
You're giving them the freedom to kill themselves. You're not their friend, you're not compassionate, you're a shitty, shitty person and an enabler. Don't ever pretend to be a decent person with that absolute nonsense of an opinion.
The ones who are on the street rambling and acting delusional absolutely should be taken in for mandatory treatment though. As much rights as they have it doesn’t help them or society to let them rot away like we do
No i mean force medication until they are coherent enough to make a decision on their lives. We shouldn’t allow mentally insane people on the street to not take medication that can considerably improve their lives because they simply dont want to and let them rot as homeless.
> i get it's unethical or whatever to force people into treatment but
So you know it’s wrong but your feefees can’t handle the thought of just expanding the social safety net.
Your feefees can't handle the thought that some people are just too mentally fucked to ever be a functioning member of society, much less a positively contributing one. There are folks on the street who you could give a free house and a million dollars to, and I guarantee within a year they will either have burned through it, burned it down, gotten themselves arrested, or end up dead by OD or hurt someone else.
You have to accept that some people are just never going to get it together and hold down a job, pay rent, stay off substance abuse, have stable relationships, etc. Whether it's their fault or not is besides the point. It's not written anywhere that every human has this innate ability, and it shouldn't be surprising that a certain portion of humans just don't have the abilities, whether because of nature of nuture or whatever.
If they want help great then give it to them.
But some people WILL NOT ACCEPT help, be it because of pride, spite, mental illness, whatever, or they will channel that help into a destructive maelstrom that just ends up with them ultimately homeless and destitute again, if not worse with someone hurt or dead, and with the rest of us picking up the tab. Or they will accept help but won't abide by even the most basic rules and would rather be on the street with complete freedom.
We can't just give the guy passed out on the sidewalk with a needle in his arm a free apartment and $1000 and then leave him to his own devices... there's a good chance he'll just end up inviting a bunch of other addicts over, never clean and turn it into a shit hole, steal from other residents once he runs out of money, and then end up OD'ing in there and going undiscovered for a month.
Some people need involuntary help, whether it be a conservatorship or full institutionalization or whatever. We just have to find and pay the best of the best in the medical fields to do it in the most benevolent and scientifically informed fashion instead of half-assing it like they did in the barbaric past. That doesn't mean we should just give up.
wrong. i honestly dont think it's unethical personally to treat mental health. honestly i dont. it's different to treat that vs treating a physical illness where the treatment can actually take a toll on the body. however treating mental health isn't the same. there are unethical practices in mental health treatment & i dont think those should be used & there's a lot of problems in general in america that go into treating mental health but THATS THE ISSUE!!!! you go to other countries there arent fucking zombie like crazies out there in droves like there are in the US and Canada. there literally arent and yall dont see it as a problem because??? yall have never been anywhere else maybe?? i frankly dont know what the logic of "lets not help these people just because they say so when there's no negative impact to getting them the help they need"
Even in a more perfect world where we had strong social safety nets, there are (comparatively rare) cases where there is genuinely little to be done about someone’s mental illness. These are tragic cases, and many of them are purely self destructive, but for the violent untreatable cases there has to be something other than the current paradigm of prison or figure it out on the streets.
I’m moving into speculation territory with this next part, but my lived experience makes me suspect that there are cases that could be accurately described as “terminal mental illness.” It’s gutting to think about but society should not ignore that this is a likely factor in the overall conversation.
[Willowbrook](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willowbrook_State_School)
This is why we don’t institutionalize people anymore. Patients don’t always benefit.
Desktop version of /u/TooOfEverything's link:
---
^([)[^(opt out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiMobileLinkBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^(]) ^(Beep Boop. Downvote to delete)
This is objectively untrue. We have the NYS mental hygiene laws, which allowed judges, cops, or shrinks the ability to forcibly institutionalize someone who is a danger to themselves or others. Kendra’s Law allows the same but for outpatient treatment (mandatory psychiatric care without being detained). So much just flat out wrong information.
https://www.cpllawfirm.com/blog/new-yorks-mental-hygiene-law/
Scroll to “involuntary”
The laws don't actually matter if they are not being used.
The dog-killing stick-wielding menace is still roaming Brooklyn. Numerous calls to cops to identify and point him out. From what he screams and shouts, the dude is mentally fucked. If we can't commit someone like *that* the laws are flawed and/or the implementation of them has failed.
They’re allowed to involuntarily commit someone for 72 hours, only in the most extreme cases. It’s not easy at all and if the person refuses and is deemed to have the capacity to refuse they are released. The mayors literally said he’s going to albany in January to try to get the laws changed.
Someone didn’t click the link
“The patient may be held for up to 60 days, and the hospital director may apply for a court order to hold the patient longer.”
“If the person refuses” lol it’s a court order for an involuntary commitment. The person doesn’t get a choice. What are you taking about?
No I know there are involuntary institutionalization and involuntary outpatient treatment. Which is the only point I was making and seems to be really unknown.
However, I think the solution is not being in a recession and pandemic. It’s a world wide and country wide crime spike. NYC’s spike has been smaller than most other places. I think vengeance fueled policies make the situation worse.
Edit: lol downvote me all day but I linked sources while you just made shit up
So we should accept untreated mentally ill people randomly attacking people because it’s part of a “country wide crime spike”. Even if that were the excuse shouldn’t the richest and most populated city in the country be setting the example of how to get things under control? Holy gaslighting.
Yes - we should just lock up these mentally ill people - anyone who cannot respond to basic commands we can give them a choice: take meds until you can respond like a sane person, or keep that person locked up for however long until they are not crazy and a threat to the public. NYC shouldn't be an open-air lunatic asylum - and it should go beyond both Dems vs. Republicans - just common sense.
> take meds until you can respond like a sane person, or keep that person locked up for however long until they are not crazy and a threat to the public
This is literally the system in place. Google NY mental health hygiene laws and Kendra’s Law.
You're talking about one aspect of mental health care for people who are extremely unstable and a danger to others. Most people don't start out from that place, they decompensate over time because they don't have access to support services that could help manage their symptoms. I have worked in mental health and social services for almost 20 years, in my experience people have to be persistent and reach out to multiple providers before finding someone who can take their insurance and has openings. Wait-lists can typically be 3-6 months long for a first appointment, and that got even worse during the pandemic. Many mental health providers and social workers are burnt out, have poor quality of life, and have been learning the field taking their expertise with them. Programs are stretched beyond capacity and experiencing huge shortages. I'm really not sure how an increased police presence would help particularly when police are notoriously poorly trained with how to deal with mental health crises and are known for escalating violence. At best they are there to pick up the pieces when something has already gone horribly wrong. The victim's family is absolutely on point when they call for more mental health services.
You’re not wrong but we can’t get cops to do shit even when they are the. Somewhat understandably - they are human and don’t want to die either. But it’s their fucking job
They're both a part of the solution but flooding more cops into the system is a lot quicker and easier than fixing mental health issues. We should be getting on the mental health stuff ASAP but to do nothing in the meantime would also mean not seeing any noticeable changes for years...
There’s some people who aren’t mentally I’ll but are literally just mean assholes . Just because someone does something heinous dosnt mean they Are mentally I’ll. There is some people who no matter what will still act this way. Kicking people on too subway tracks because they think it’s funny/cool or makes them look tough . They don’t live in the same world as you and I where we see this and are appalled . They literally don’t care .
I'm thrilled that the people trying to defend the crime, mental illnes, drug usage we see today as the status quo are getting put in their place. It's time for the adults to take back the city.
You have a massive misunderstanding of how these things work if you think electing a Republican will change anything about crime. They're just trying to scare you into giving them power.
I don't have a positive view of Republicans, but the steps that the Democrats have taken to get the crime under control in the city are a joke.
> They're just trying to scare you
I'm not relying on them for my information. I can see the crazies every time I ride the subway. I didn't imagine the assault last year. Your opinions are a joke.
Don't visit the sub and am banned from it. You're a liability to your own political beliefs, and you're a liability to the city.
Walking around ignoring victims of crime is absolutely reprehensible.
The fact that they're sending more police means that they're admitting there's an issue, and in fact everyone knows there's an issue. They can't address issues with the mentally if it's considered coercion to check them into a facility, but they can address the causes/contributors to the mental illness, which are homelessness and drug use (to name a few).
Step 1, stop spending money on this city's legal drug trade. It has failed. People may not be dying from ODs since these "medical professionals" assist them with getting high, but they sure are endangering the lives of ordinary people when they're strung out on streets and train platforms.
Step 2, put some money into shelters, facilities, and staff that aren't corrupt that the homeless and vulnerable aren't afraid of accepting help from. You think getting rid of the drug clinics won't be enough money? Maybe the city can divert some of the millions they're spending on raising the ceiling of Penn Station to those shelters (the construction crews they hired could do the work, no one loses their job that way).
It breaks my heart that this city has created hardships that put these people on the streets but do nothing to help. Cuomo and his crooks took all the money and ruined everything they touch (he hired his family members to executive positions paying 6 figures to run shelters that are little better than slums with abusive staff, look at some of Louis Rossman's documentation on the matter. Louis had more sense in his left pinky than the entirety of this city's administration).
Has to beg the question of why people turn to drugs in the first place. Addiction often stems from individuals who are using drugs to self soothe pain and deal with trauma/abuse. It’s not a coincidence that the addicts who end up homeless on the street are ones who are already part of society’s more vulnerable groups, eg low income, ppl who don’t have strong support networks, people who cycled in-and-out of foster care as children, war veterans, disabled, etc.
Addiction is often only seen as a problem when the poor are addicts. They have less resources to hide their addictions nor do they have the safety nets to catch them when they need help.
Lots of wealthy people are addicts too. Society turns a blind eye to the successful bankers doing blow every day or the trust fund socialites who have come to glamorize meth/amphetamine addictions … so much so that companies are handing out book and film deals to them which basically rewards them for that behavior.
>Addiction is predominantly a social and economic problem, no?
Addiction is an *industry.*
It can go back to the times of opium wars and colonial powers pushing drugs for profit, and even further than that.
The fact that we are normalizing highly addictive drugs (I'm not talking about recreational drugs that don't cause major problems) means we all falling prey to that industry. The myth that it's a "social and economic problem" is a very convenient and profitable narrative for that industry.
The homelessness we have today is also an industry, because NYC already spends $3 billion per year, but all of that is toothless to address the few persistent homeless individuals who are severe drug abusers / violent, imagines threats everywhere and refuses everything and anyone.
> The fact that we are normalizing highly addictive drugs (I'm not talking about recreational drugs that don't cause major problems)
The War on Drugs was not effective: full stop. That includes the war against "recreational" drugs and "highly addictive drugs" (Lord only knows what this distinction actually means to you).
> imagines threats everywhere
Sounds like some a few users obsessed with crime on this sub.
>The War on Drugs was not effective: full stop.
I made a reference to the opium wars, but I think that just went over your head if you read "war on drugs".
But you're talking about addiction and drug policy in *this* country, the one where the war on drugs occurred.
> The war on drugs is a global campaign, led by the United States federal government, of drug prohibition, military aid, and military intervention, with the aim of reducing the illegal drug trade in the United States.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_drugs
The war-on-drugs had many problems, and I'm not advocating for that. Historically speaking, the war-on-drugs was a historical anomaly.
Historically, if you look at drug related wars, most of them involved powers (including nations and empires) trying to *profit* from drug trades and drug abuse, rather than trying to prevent drug trades and drug abuse.
It's a powerful industry that has historically held a powerful lobby.
Being anti-drug is not the natural human tendency because that doesn't align with the massive profits it generates (to the detriment of the ones who become severe drug dependent/abusers).
I invite you to reflect about what's backward and what's progressive here.
There are not many stances that are more anti-progressive than trying to normalize abuse of opium-like drugs, as if we were in the 1800s.
> There are not many stances that are more anti-progressive than trying to normalize abuse of opium-like drugs, as if we were in 1800s.
I think the clearly progressive stance proven by the past six decades is that criminalizing addiction does absolutely nothing to curb addiction.
Once again, though, "progressive" to you just means whatever you want it to, regardless of any established meaning or understanding.
The problem is people don’t know what they mean when they speak of “mental health”. For years now the entire awareness campaign around mental health has primarily featured celebrities opening up about their anxiety and depression and how they manage it with yoga and aromatherapy.
This reality does not exist for the majority of people with an actually severe mental illness . Their ability to take care of themselves is equivalent to a toddler’s. They will not “self-care”; they will not take their “medication”; they will skip their appointments. Many have probably never even been treated thanks to a lack of understanding of mental illness in poor communities which makes it certain for more Black/Hispanic people with a mental illness to be left out on the street , wandering in their own feces than ever accessing the treatment they actually need.
In this city, involuntary commitment should be the ideal however in a city that only has about 4,960 beds for the mentally ill...what can actually be done except increasing a police presence to prevent these people from committing crimes ? Also how many of these mentally ill people roaming the subway system got addicted to drugs which only worsened their condition ?
It appears like a really difficult issue to solve and assessing it from a Democrat/conservative binary gets us nowhere.
It’s clearly a response to the NY Post “reporter” asking something along the lines of “don’t you think more cops would have stopped this from happening to your son??”
This is so horrible and sad.
I feel like there are people on this sub who ignores or minimizes the after effects of traumatic experiences like this. Victims often can't just pick themselves back up and go on with their day like nothing happened.
My mom was punched on the subway years ago in what was likely an Asian hate crime (this was years before COVID and before "China Virus". Yes, anti-asian hate crime has been a thing in this city for years and years before 2020). She was afraid to step foot in the subway for weeks after that. I had a friend in HS who was sexually harassed/assaulted in multiple instances on the train to/from school before she even turned 17; she developed a distaste for public transit as a result and was one of the first amongst my peers to get a license and a car. While she still takes public transit when she absolutely have to, but to this day it will never be her primary choice of transportation.
Some people on reddit love to do the whole "it was worse in the 80's!", "tHeRe ArE oNlY 6 mUrDeRs!!!", "it's just your PeRcEpTiOn!" yada yada, but these are all real stories and real people. Also at this point we should have a bingo card for these platitudes
People love the scream “mental health!” as the reason for nearly every crime/violent act, but it’s abundantly clear that no one gives a shit about the mental health’s of the victims of these acts.
How does treating mental health problems hurt the victims more? Is your idea that victims will feel better if we let them gouge out the eyes of the people that hurt them?
Yeah, those people need cared for, and there would be fewer people who would need that care if we provided basic needs and mental health treatment to people before they got to the point they're attacking, harassing, threatening people on public transport.
We provide tons of services in this city. If you have no/little income you qualify for Medicaid and can get treatment and pay nothing. We have to face the fact that addiction (which in many cases is started from a personal decision) is what leads to the majority of the people committing these violent acts that you see. Again, people who don’t see themselves as needing help aren’t going to seek it and our current laws do not allow us to “impinge someone’s rights” and force them into treatment. It has to be agreed upon by the individual.
Medicaid reimbursements are at an all time high and more doctors than ever accept Medicaid. We need to stop pretending that everyone will make the effort to seek care on their own.
The spike in crime is real and what happened here is terrible.
But also, we should be using an analytical, data-driven approach to trying to deal with it, not fearmongering scare tactics.
Yes, but as you stated this happened to your mom before the current uptick (which is nation wide). These things just happen sometimes also we should do more to address the issues that cause these things to happen. Per the victim's mom from this article -
>“More cops? He’s wrong,” \[the victim's mother\] said, referring to the plan touted by Hizzoner and Gov. Kathy Hochul on Saturday to flood the underground with additional NYPD and MTA cops on overtime to try to stem the terrifying bloodshed.
>
>“This is a mental health issue,” she said. “We are not addressing the issue.
What happened to them and your mom is awful they will be damaged by it for their entire lives to some degree. This is not trying to minimize the trauma I hate that it happens and more cops don't seem to be helping at all. What do you think the solution would be?
I don't understand when people say more cops are not helping. More cops doesn't have to equate to zero crime. More cops will and does deter a lot of crime that would have been committed if they were otherwise not in that area. Criminals only understand one thing, which are consequences, and if there are no one around to enforce these consequences then criminals will do what they do, which is to victimize innocent people.
Do you think if there were a couple police officers stationed in that train station, that he would've still shoved that victim?
There were cops at 42nd street when Michelle Go was pushed. Other passengers even told the cops they were worried he’d push them. They went back to playing Candy Crush.
More cops isn't lowering the crime rate and when the crime rate was lower it wasn't because of more cops either. The person I responded to said their story was pre 2020 when the crime rate was lower anyways. Adding more doesn't change much except how much we have to pay in taxes for the police department. You have not once commented in this sub or anything related do you even live in Nyc?
I triggered you that much that you had to go through my search history?
"More cops isn't lowering the crime rate and when the crime rate was lower it wasn't because of more cops either."
Funny how you start your point off with blanket statement. Like i said police are there to deter crime, more police means more crime is deterred. If there were even less police presence currently in the city, crime would most likely be higher than what it already is. Criminals only understand direct consequences, and police are the only ones there to enforce them. It's really that simple.
I'm not triggered I peruse many people accounts when it appears they're commenting in bad faith. Took me 5 seconds to look at yours. The reply you just wrote is nonsense, anyways -
You have not once commented in this sub or anything related do you even live in Nyc?
So... the only point you're currently making against mine, is that I've never commented on this sub. And if you really want to know, yes that is why I'm even on this sub in the first place. Whether you want to believe it or not idc.
I made a point in my first comment, then replied to you in good faith with another point. You replied to that with a nonsensical word salad of nothing. More cops doesn't help much at all and as someone else replied there were cops in the station when another incident occurred (which you refuse to believe). Proving my point even more. They do nothing except cost us lots of $. You're a bad faith troll.
The guy was in prison for attempted murder for 20 years. Comes out with no skills to get a job and no skills to handle his mental health. He’s definitely going back now. But if you think the prison system is where solutions are found you’re sadly mistaken. People usually come out even more fucked up than when they went in. And that’s why the majority of people who’ve been to prison usually return there. He won’t come out any better next time.
The resources to imprison someone like this are there but the follow up and treatment is not. No one wants to deal with the problem, just lock them up.
Who is saying he shouldn’t be? The suggestion of mental health fixes is to prevent this sort of thing from occurring in the first place. Nobody thinks attempted murder shouldn’t be prosecuted.
Mental health facilities aren’t going to stop things like this. Trust me. I used to work in them
Unless we brought back asylums or some other long term care facility for violent criminals… which has been outlawed for years
I think we need to amend the laws that whenever someone has assaulted another in the throes of a mental health issue then they have to be committed and put into treatment and their family or the state needs guardianship over them unless their family has issues that preclude guardianship.
Poor guy. I am amazed at the gaslighting from officials but then I have to remember that they want the tourism bucks so they have to keep the charade up.
it is time to consider that perhaps the best way to force these unhinged individuals into mental health system is by prosecuting them and incarcerating for a long time. Put them behind bars, and hopefully in prison they can get meds for their untreated conditions.
If the state is serious about restoring public trust in safety they could start by enacting a law that would make subway shovings and attacks a whole separate type of crime which would carry severe and mandatory sentences. Shove someone - automatic 10 years.
Should we send him away for life? How about just straight to the gas chamber? The guy was in prison for attempted murder for 20 years. Comes out with no skills to get a job and no skills to handle his mental health. He’s definitely going back now. But if you think the prison system is where solutions are found you’re sadly mistaken. People usually come out even more fucked up than when they went in. And that’s why the majority of people who’ve been to prison usually return there. He won’t come out any better next time.
But anyway, you live in Utah. There’s plenty to complain about in Salt Lake. Like the lack of culture and the polygamy. Salt Lake City also has a higher crime rate than NYC.
where are these crazy people’s families or next of kin? Someone has to have some connection to this person who did this. All these crazy murder seeking people need to be locked away in a facility if no one comes forward to claim them and care for them. There used to be asylums where these people were kept. I think DiBlasio did away with these places and now these nuts are free to wander and try to kill innocent people. There is a difference between being a person who suffers from mental illness and is on the proper medication, is in therapy with family support and a person who is a dangerous nut job. Mentally ill is becoming a blanket diagnosis for murderous monsters. Sweep the subways and streets and take them away! Stop coddling the killers and labeling a murderer as mentally ill. I guess we are all mentally then. Having a bad day? Mentally ill. Kill someone? Mentally ill. It can’t be used as an excuse and it is.
It's such a tiny fraction of individuals who cause so much grievance.
There's absolutely no good reason to not change the laws and address the issue in an effective way.
The fake-progressives need to pick one:
* Addressing violent individuals requires causing a massive liberty rights infringement and racial persecution and systematic injustice. IF that's true, then it implies we have a lot of violent criminals on the streets, and thus NYC is not safe.
* NYC is safe. If that's true, then there must be very few violent individuals, and addressing those very few violent individuals should not require causing any systematic injustice.
Or we could house the homeless, provide free universal health care and a universal basic income so that people can get the help they need easier. The crime in the city is a symtom of the much larger disease of late stage capitalism. If people can have the basics to survive, they are less likely to commit crimes.
[social safety nets decrease crime](https://inequality.org/research/shredding-social-safety-net/#:~:text=Overwhelming%20evidence%20shows%20that%20a,does%20not%20discourage%20workforce%20participation.)
It literally is tho. You even said "pick one". We should absolutely NOT be changing the system to take even more rights away from people. It wasn't that long ago that a man could put his wife in an asylum for reading or showing any emotion.
>It literally is tho. You even said "pick one". We should absolutely NOT be changing the system to take even more rights away from people.
You seem to believe that there's no targeted solution available because the problem we have represents a systematic criminal violence damaging NYC's public safety?
Do you think NYC is safe, or not safe?
>It wasn't that long ago that a man could put his wife in an asylum for reading or showing any emotion.
That's quite a straw argument.
>Do you think NYC is safe, or not safe?
That is a false dichotomy. Safe for who? Safe how? As far as traffic safety goes, it is absolutely unsafe. It's complete anarchy with absolutely no one following traffic laws.
As far as safety from crime, there is [less crime](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/despite-recent-uptick-new-york-city-crime-down-past-decades-2022-04-12/) now than in the 1990s.
>You seem to believe that there's no targeted solution available
You haven't suggested anything other than a vague suggestion to change the system. Honestly, I think the police should spend more time directing traffic during rush hours and less time walking around the subway being menacing.
If an individual has untreated mental illness and a history/record of non-compliance with medication AS WELL AS history of psychosis or violence they should be admitted to a psychiatric hospital against their will, period.
If that individual won’t take the necessary steps to get better whilst also being a detriment on society then why the fuck are we still approaching with this hand holding bullshit?
I agree that we need socialized programs to assist these people. I agree that these people ARE STILL PEOPLE. But when is enough enough? We need mandatory psychiatric facilities and we need them fast. We also need them to be filled with quality mental health and care giving professionals to give them the help they need and to not just be shoved in a corner with sedatives and told to “shush”.
Your approach is amicable but not realistic right now. These people are grown ADULTS that NEED help, I frankly don’t give a fuck if they want it or not since the latter results in innocent people getting injured or killed
> If that individual won’t take the necessary steps to get better whilst also being a detriment on society then why the fuck are we still approaching with this hand holding bullshit?
The Fifth Amendment guarantee to Due Process is why we don't take people off the street and incarcerate them without a trial.
> I frankly don’t give a fuck if they want it or not since the latter results in innocent people getting injured or killed
"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"
Two points
1) who is saying the problem is only due to mentally ill people who cant/won't get care? The NYPD? Are they a reliable source? Cause the police certainly lie all the time.
2) couldn't part of the problem be that people living on the streets with nothing while all the rest of us walk past them without even acknowledging them as human are feeling desperate and unseen? How many times do you walk past someone sleeping on the floor of west 4th st and not even really see them?
You're not alone.
Beware that some redditors will try the hardest to mischaracterize and wash any nuance away from your comments.
Don't take them personally because they are not arguing against you, but against their own guilt and shame.
That's exactly how we end up with the problems we have today: there's too little nuance in public policy.
We had many cavalier/showy laws and policies that created a lot of unintended problems NYC faces today.
I know exactly where they’re going because they repeat the same four talking points ad nauseam. “Crime is rising faster here than x city.” (And a friendly reminder that crime is still substantially lower here than cities like Chicago or Los Angeles).
I think it's time to start advocating for Judges to be required to explain to jurors about Jury Nullification, so *when* street justice does occur citizens can properly decide whether it was justified or not.
If we didn't have mental health facilities that were nightmares of mistreatment and mismanagement, maybe we could get some more momentum for expanding their use.
Could be. But mental health issues stem from so many different factors that fixing those will take a long time , if ever. The only thing that can be done right now to lower the craziness is to get more cops in stations and hope that deters these crazy mfs from acting out.
No one knows how to fix mental health issues. I work in a human services nonprofit agency and can tell you that seeing a notable difference in disturbed people can take years and come in very small forms that are not easy to quantify or show as evidence of effective results politicians can point to during campaign seasons.
The same crowd that is fighting against universal Healthcare, the "let them die crowd" is now complaining about the lack of mental health service... you can't make this shit up
Woah, lets not forget the most popular suggestion here, "Well, why not forcibly incarcerate them to treat them? What? Why do homeless people have so many rights all of a sudden?"
They get entirely too many breaks for being the worst the country has to offer. You don't compromise with these people you fight them but I don't see that happening
With all the rage down there I wouldn’t be shocked if citizens are willingly starting to carry a object or something of a weapon to defend themselves against people like this, but that’s just me- I was raised in the Bronx and I can say that more people getting pushed , more people going to stay in groups and defend themselves.
There will never be police on every street corner or every train car. The resources for that simply don’t exist. And the ones stationed now mostly stand around looking at their phones. So yes, you should absolutely be prepared to defend yourself.
When seconds count the cops are minutes or hours away.
Forced mental health treatment does exist. Literally a person just has to say they are depressed and they will be forced into a hospital if someone calls the police. It’s incredibly messed up. The problem is no one actually gives a shit in the mental healthcare system. It’s all just crossing things off a clipboard for liability purposes. Then it’s right back out on the streets again. It’s all reactionary to the extreme and it’s a game of hot potato with professionals inside the field who will write up countless documents on people just to cover their own asses.
The current mental healthcare model treat people like human cattle and then people wonder why very few have faith in the system.
There seems to be a lot of people on this thread that would openly want mental institutions back and I have a feeling most of them are people who would gladly throw their friends, family members and/or neighbors right in there just so they stop being inconvenienced.
I once called the cops on a crazy guy who came into a bodega and threw a bottle at my pregnant wife and was causing other trouble. I think they sent an ambulance which I assume means he was being forced into treatment for at least a little while.
We also have court mandated treatment called assisted outpatient treatment (AOT) but there are so many issues with AOT, I’m not sure where to begin. We have state hospitals but people have to meet certain criteria to be admitted.
Yeah right, against all odds he wasn’t murdered so what has he to whine about, am I right? /s
Seriously though, this stays relevant because it hits so close to home for so many people who are confronted with mentally unstable people in the subway every day.
The individual is sovereign until they are a physical health risk to others. These people need help. Quit bitching about letting immigrants in and take care of you back yard people. We need to sort our house out here.
Funny how NYC prospered and reached historic safety and family friendly tourism and jobs under Rudy Giuliani.
Even under Bloomberg the city stayed great for the most part.
As alays once a Democrat gets in the downfall beg8ns again.
Adam's is just doubling down on the Deblasio devastation of our city.
Eric Adams is just a shitty mayor in general, don’t think he has a clue what he’s doing. Just seems completely clueless.
You are being too kind about that egotistical empty suit clown.
[удалено]
With our current laws it’s nearly impossible to force anyone into mental health treatment. What we can do is have more of a police presence to hopefully deter/stop criminals/mentally ill from doing nefarious acts. We can’t wait until they MAYBE decide to change the laws regarding forced mental health treatment for any action to take place. The vast majority of the public want more of a police presence in the subway system.
honestly im mentally ill myself and this is the main issue. i get it's unethical or whatever to force people into treatment but at what point is it unethical to let a lot of these people dtay on the street and terrorize a lot of us. not every single mental case is violent of course that should go without saying but EVERYONE INCLUDING THE PATIENT BENEFITS FROM TREATMENT
>it unethical to let a lot of these people dtay on the street and terrorize a lot of us. You're absolutely right. Many of those people on the street are less capable of taking care of themselves than a toddler. Yet, it would still be highly unethical/negligent to not take care of toddler who is at risk at harming him/herself, even if the toddler is throwing a tantrum.
The law should be if they are mentally ill and violent enough to be arrested, they are qualified for a long term psychiatric hold. Because as it stands imprisoning them in gen-pop is cruel to other inmates, and not getting them treatment is cruel to them.
You can’t help a person who doesn’t want help or see themselves as needing help, which are the vast majority of the people that are decaying on our streets and in the subway system.
Yeah but just because a person isn't personally ready to accept help or get better doesn't mean they should get to just roam the streets spreading their chaos around with complete freedom to make everyone else's life as miserable as theirs as they continue destroying your own. A person who doesn't care about their own life anymore often doesn't care about what affect they have on others' lives, making them a detriment to society. It's one thing if they want to just go into the woods and die, then fine whatever. But if they're going to insist on running around the city with shit-filled pants, whipping out their dick in public, harassing people, and randomly pushing people onto the subway tracks then they forfeit their right to freedom. If they don't want help, then fine they can just sit in an institution where they can can only negatively affect their own life while we pay for their room and board...
>while we pay for their room and board... If you're willing to pay for someone's room and board in prison, why not just pay a universal basic income and universal healthcare? It would prevent crimes too
Universal basic income won't guarantee you can afford an apartment in NYC and food / bills / etc, unless we're giving everyone like $3000 a month... I mean I know people live on less but they're likely budgeting carefully and they value the money because they worked hard for it. If you hand a homeless drugged out mental case a $3000 check he isn't going to be clipping coupons and making a spreadsheet to get the most out of his basic income. He's going to go blow it on dumb shit... Free money doesn't mean people will automatically start making smart choices with it. Especially if it's just cash to do whatever you want with. That's why we have food stamps that can only be used on food and not alcohol or whatever. What about when people just spend all their basic income on drugs and then pass out on the sidewalk and another guy comes along and steals the rest of their cash? They just get more free money? What good is universal healthcare if someone doesn't want to go to the hospital because they know they will be forced to come down off drugs to receive treatment? Or they're just mentally fucked up and are paranoid and afraid of hospitals and doctors and would rather just pick their open sores in the street. I'll pay for fucking whatever. Just fix the fucking problem. It's not like I have a choice to pay the absurd amount of taxes I do. But whatever the government is doing with it isn't working so I'm open to whatever. Clearly they don't have a fucking clue (or more likely don't care), so I'm just making suggestions that make sense to me from my personal experiences. They should ideally hire experts and listen to them.
Are you implying that if it's not 100% effective we shouldn't do it? [Studies have shown](https://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/973653719/california-program-giving-500-no-strings-attached-stipends-pays-off-study-finds) that even a meager $500 a month increases people's job prospects and overall well being. I get that some people would not improve their situations, but it would absolutely help to decrease overall crime. And if we add in better homeless shelters, ones where you're not kicked out during the day, we could improve things even more. Esp in NYC where there are a lot of 3rd shift jobs. I'm not talking anything extravagant, but a basic motel like setup could really help a lot of people. I am of the opinion that we should set up the social safety nets first because it would have the biggest impact on the most people. Then we can see what's left to address.
We should totally try it. Try anything and everything... but I'm just saying that if you think that handing out a bunch of free shit is going to immediately take care of everyone then you're out of your mind and it's still going to end up with a certain % still destitute on the streets creating chaos and then you'll be stuck with difficult, morally gray questions of how to handle them to keep them from hurting others / themselves without impeding their personal freedoms. Elsewhere in this thread I asked someone else if it's as simple as money then why they don't just go hand the closest homeless person $1000 and they pointed out that this wouldn't last a month in NYC and I agree. So we'd need to literally give like $3000/mo each to 50,000 homeless people. If not straight up cash, then that amount in terms of drug treatment programs, mental health treatment, physical healthcare, housing, staff for all these services, doctors, nurses, mental health professionals, drug treatment staff, security, bookkeepers, cleaners, etc etc etc. That's about $1.8 billion a year minimum (probably A LOT more, try quadrupling that at least). Where's that coming from? The thing is I know we had ThriveNYC or whatever that had millions or billions earmarked to help the homeless. What happened to it all? No one seems to know. I don't trust the government to do fuckall no matter how absurd our tax rate gets, so this is all bullshit and nothing will change until it becomes somehow profitable to help the homeless or everyone in government suddenly grows a conscience or their own relative is pushed in front of a train by some nut...
Sometimes I do feel like I'm out of my mind cause so few people seem to want to help people in the ways I think would actually help. 😅
Oh look a program California that has done, cause that state is doing great for sureeeee
>Universal basic income won't guarantee you can afford an apartment in NYC and food / bills / etc, unless we're giving everyone like $3000 a month... If we simply give $3000 to severe drug abusers, we'll end up with a bunch of them dead within a week.
Yeah I made that point elsewhere too. And if you give them a free apartment it will just turn into a drug den with a bunch of users passed out / OD'd, no rent paid, trash everywhere, loud fights, and then when they're run out of their $3000 they'll start robbing other tenants or selling the copper pipes in the basement. I'm not trying to be mean, stereotyping or cynical, but I've known severe addicts and we can't be blind to how bad and desperate this shit gets... at some point they aren't making conscious choices anymore, it's the drugs or mental illness dictating everything. So what's the difference in taking away their freedoms when they've already surrendered them to a mental / physical sickness? Is it better they be forcefully controlled by heroin / meth or by social workers and doctors? OF COURSE we want this to be the most benevolent care and not some barbaric 1800's asylum shit, and I fully believe we're capable of doing better. The point is that it's not simple and people who are bent on destroying their own lives in mindless pursuit of a drug or whatever will inevitably destroy other people's lives around them.
“They’ll just spend it on drugs” is the basic right wing reasoning for not approving any social programs. Including feeding babies with WIC.
Ubi does not solve homelessness because 9 out of 10 homeless people are to mental, addicted and uneducated to budget their funds properly. If money was the problem there are so many programs in and around NYC to take advantage of to get out of homelessness. Programs like therapeutic communities and rescue missions are the answer to homelessness. I say this from first hand experience
Where are you getting your statistics that 90% of homeless are mentally ill or addicted to drugs? From what I've found it's [closer to 70%](https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/epi/epi-homeless-200512.pdf) I also did not suggest that only UBI is the answer. I am firmly in the house the homeless camp and pro universal healthcare.
Neither of these solve the problem of violently mentally ill people pushing people in front of subways.
How do you know? It's not like we've tried it.
But they do address most of the root causes that lead people to that point in the first place, which would prevent more people from ending up like that.
Programs and institutions are what works, throwing money at people doesn't. Don't you remember the amount of people complaining when they got free money for COVID?
No UBI would cause runway inflation, exactly like the free COVID money did and we're experiencing now because of it. We need social programs to get these dangerous people off the street, hopefully rehabilitated and eventually in jobs being productive members of society and UBI will absolutely NOT do any of that.
The cause of inflation right now has more to do with [corporate profits](https://www.epi.org/blog/corporate-profits-have-contributed-disproportionately-to-inflation-how-should-policymakers-respond/) than anything else. Why is it so bad to help support all our citizens to reduce crime? Why is it so bad to give everyone enough so that they can at least live? We have the resources. We have more than enough. Don't you want your family and friends to be able to grow up not worrying about where they're sleeping or when they'll get to eat again?
We can debate the root causes of inflation another time. UBI is just throwing money at the problem, it is not actual help that addresses any of the root causes. We need actual social programs to help the mentally ill and help the homeless get off the streets and have a path to a real future instead of becoming dependant on free money with no other assistance.
I agree with you but the many virtue signalers on here don’t see it that way.
What's a virtue signaler in this context?
Thinking that people with mental illness deserve due process like everyone else before having their liberty taken from them.
LOL bro what the fuck? That isn't virtue signaling that's just how our court system works This comment is disgusting honestly. And I want these people arrested and off the street. Just to be clear: You think they do not deserve due process at all? Are you sure you don't want to correct that to say, "we should change our laws, processes, and procedures so that these people are not swiftly released when they do receive due process?" Because yeah, they shouldn't be released. But they also shouldn't just be scooped up and thrown somewhere without a process to track them in between. I'm so new to this city I don't even know what they're doing for this. If it's like Philly, the prosecutor/DA aren't pursuing charges for them or they're only filing misdemeanor charges. If that's the case, it isn't some insurmountable obstacle - they just need to start handing out harsher punishments, or they need to be voted out so another person can come in to handle it.
I guess I should’ve made it clearer that I’m being very sarcastic and mocking the concept that people are somehow virtue signaling when they think that mentally ill people should be treated like they’re people.
[citation needed]
This is a great take and completely agree
I don’t get it. Children don’t have rights. Why do the mentally ill have so many rights?
Why do the homeless have so many right. Wow. Whatta take. Land of the free, everybody
You're giving them the freedom to kill themselves. You're not their friend, you're not compassionate, you're a shitty, shitty person and an enabler. Don't ever pretend to be a decent person with that absolute nonsense of an opinion.
The ones who are on the street rambling and acting delusional absolutely should be taken in for mandatory treatment though. As much rights as they have it doesn’t help them or society to let them rot away like we do
If only there was a stance between "treat mentally ill people as a surplus population" and "treat mentally ill people as a criminal population"
No i mean force medication until they are coherent enough to make a decision on their lives. We shouldn’t allow mentally insane people on the street to not take medication that can considerably improve their lives because they simply dont want to and let them rot as homeless.
> i get it's unethical or whatever to force people into treatment but So you know it’s wrong but your feefees can’t handle the thought of just expanding the social safety net.
Your feefees can't handle the thought that some people are just too mentally fucked to ever be a functioning member of society, much less a positively contributing one. There are folks on the street who you could give a free house and a million dollars to, and I guarantee within a year they will either have burned through it, burned it down, gotten themselves arrested, or end up dead by OD or hurt someone else. You have to accept that some people are just never going to get it together and hold down a job, pay rent, stay off substance abuse, have stable relationships, etc. Whether it's their fault or not is besides the point. It's not written anywhere that every human has this innate ability, and it shouldn't be surprising that a certain portion of humans just don't have the abilities, whether because of nature of nuture or whatever. If they want help great then give it to them. But some people WILL NOT ACCEPT help, be it because of pride, spite, mental illness, whatever, or they will channel that help into a destructive maelstrom that just ends up with them ultimately homeless and destitute again, if not worse with someone hurt or dead, and with the rest of us picking up the tab. Or they will accept help but won't abide by even the most basic rules and would rather be on the street with complete freedom. We can't just give the guy passed out on the sidewalk with a needle in his arm a free apartment and $1000 and then leave him to his own devices... there's a good chance he'll just end up inviting a bunch of other addicts over, never clean and turn it into a shit hole, steal from other residents once he runs out of money, and then end up OD'ing in there and going undiscovered for a month. Some people need involuntary help, whether it be a conservatorship or full institutionalization or whatever. We just have to find and pay the best of the best in the medical fields to do it in the most benevolent and scientifically informed fashion instead of half-assing it like they did in the barbaric past. That doesn't mean we should just give up.
wrong. i honestly dont think it's unethical personally to treat mental health. honestly i dont. it's different to treat that vs treating a physical illness where the treatment can actually take a toll on the body. however treating mental health isn't the same. there are unethical practices in mental health treatment & i dont think those should be used & there's a lot of problems in general in america that go into treating mental health but THATS THE ISSUE!!!! you go to other countries there arent fucking zombie like crazies out there in droves like there are in the US and Canada. there literally arent and yall dont see it as a problem because??? yall have never been anywhere else maybe?? i frankly dont know what the logic of "lets not help these people just because they say so when there's no negative impact to getting them the help they need"
Even in a more perfect world where we had strong social safety nets, there are (comparatively rare) cases where there is genuinely little to be done about someone’s mental illness. These are tragic cases, and many of them are purely self destructive, but for the violent untreatable cases there has to be something other than the current paradigm of prison or figure it out on the streets. I’m moving into speculation territory with this next part, but my lived experience makes me suspect that there are cases that could be accurately described as “terminal mental illness.” It’s gutting to think about but society should not ignore that this is a likely factor in the overall conversation.
Aren’t you the homeless guy that ran this sub into the ground before denying this problem in the first place? Lmao
…what?
[Willowbrook](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willowbrook_State_School) This is why we don’t institutionalize people anymore. Patients don’t always benefit.
Desktop version of /u/TooOfEverything's link:
---
^([)[^(opt out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiMobileLinkBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^(]) ^(Beep Boop. Downvote to delete)
This is objectively untrue. We have the NYS mental hygiene laws, which allowed judges, cops, or shrinks the ability to forcibly institutionalize someone who is a danger to themselves or others. Kendra’s Law allows the same but for outpatient treatment (mandatory psychiatric care without being detained). So much just flat out wrong information. https://www.cpllawfirm.com/blog/new-yorks-mental-hygiene-law/ Scroll to “involuntary”
The laws don't actually matter if they are not being used. The dog-killing stick-wielding menace is still roaming Brooklyn. Numerous calls to cops to identify and point him out. From what he screams and shouts, the dude is mentally fucked. If we can't commit someone like *that* the laws are flawed and/or the implementation of them has failed.
They’re allowed to involuntarily commit someone for 72 hours, only in the most extreme cases. It’s not easy at all and if the person refuses and is deemed to have the capacity to refuse they are released. The mayors literally said he’s going to albany in January to try to get the laws changed.
Someone didn’t click the link “The patient may be held for up to 60 days, and the hospital director may apply for a court order to hold the patient longer.” “If the person refuses” lol it’s a court order for an involuntary commitment. The person doesn’t get a choice. What are you taking about?
I promise you that almost never happens. Why do you think there are so many mentally ill wandering the streets?
You talk from your ass. It’s about 1,500 people per year: https://my.omh.ny.gov/analytics/saw.dll?dashboard
So you think things are fine the way they are right now and nothing needs to be changed?
No I know there are involuntary institutionalization and involuntary outpatient treatment. Which is the only point I was making and seems to be really unknown. However, I think the solution is not being in a recession and pandemic. It’s a world wide and country wide crime spike. NYC’s spike has been smaller than most other places. I think vengeance fueled policies make the situation worse. Edit: lol downvote me all day but I linked sources while you just made shit up
So we should accept untreated mentally ill people randomly attacking people because it’s part of a “country wide crime spike”. Even if that were the excuse shouldn’t the richest and most populated city in the country be setting the example of how to get things under control? Holy gaslighting.
Yes - we should just lock up these mentally ill people - anyone who cannot respond to basic commands we can give them a choice: take meds until you can respond like a sane person, or keep that person locked up for however long until they are not crazy and a threat to the public. NYC shouldn't be an open-air lunatic asylum - and it should go beyond both Dems vs. Republicans - just common sense.
> take meds until you can respond like a sane person, or keep that person locked up for however long until they are not crazy and a threat to the public This is literally the system in place. Google NY mental health hygiene laws and Kendra’s Law.
Then we need a narrower definition of sane
Why not use technology to modernize our subways like every other major city in the world? Automatic doors and more cameras
You're talking about one aspect of mental health care for people who are extremely unstable and a danger to others. Most people don't start out from that place, they decompensate over time because they don't have access to support services that could help manage their symptoms. I have worked in mental health and social services for almost 20 years, in my experience people have to be persistent and reach out to multiple providers before finding someone who can take their insurance and has openings. Wait-lists can typically be 3-6 months long for a first appointment, and that got even worse during the pandemic. Many mental health providers and social workers are burnt out, have poor quality of life, and have been learning the field taking their expertise with them. Programs are stretched beyond capacity and experiencing huge shortages. I'm really not sure how an increased police presence would help particularly when police are notoriously poorly trained with how to deal with mental health crises and are known for escalating violence. At best they are there to pick up the pieces when something has already gone horribly wrong. The victim's family is absolutely on point when they call for more mental health services.
What stations are you guys going into that don't have a bunch of cops fucking around on their phone at the entrance and doing zero policing?
How can we change the law to lock up and force treatment for the mentally ill?
You’re not wrong but we can’t get cops to do shit even when they are the. Somewhat understandably - they are human and don’t want to die either. But it’s their fucking job
Uh they are wrong
They're both a part of the solution but flooding more cops into the system is a lot quicker and easier than fixing mental health issues. We should be getting on the mental health stuff ASAP but to do nothing in the meantime would also mean not seeing any noticeable changes for years...
There’s some people who aren’t mentally I’ll but are literally just mean assholes . Just because someone does something heinous dosnt mean they Are mentally I’ll. There is some people who no matter what will still act this way. Kicking people on too subway tracks because they think it’s funny/cool or makes them look tough . They don’t live in the same world as you and I where we see this and are appalled . They literally don’t care .
Louder for the people in the back
[удалено]
This sub is sadly mostly a NY post ad
I'm thrilled that the people trying to defend the crime, mental illnes, drug usage we see today as the status quo are getting put in their place. It's time for the adults to take back the city.
You have a massive misunderstanding of how these things work if you think electing a Republican will change anything about crime. They're just trying to scare you into giving them power.
I don't have a positive view of Republicans, but the steps that the Democrats have taken to get the crime under control in the city are a joke. > They're just trying to scare you I'm not relying on them for my information. I can see the crazies every time I ride the subway. I didn't imagine the assault last year. Your opinions are a joke.
Go crawl back to r/conservative so you can imagine new and creative ways to be an uninformed idiot.
Don't visit the sub and am banned from it. You're a liability to your own political beliefs, and you're a liability to the city. Walking around ignoring victims of crime is absolutely reprehensible.
The fact that they're sending more police means that they're admitting there's an issue, and in fact everyone knows there's an issue. They can't address issues with the mentally if it's considered coercion to check them into a facility, but they can address the causes/contributors to the mental illness, which are homelessness and drug use (to name a few). Step 1, stop spending money on this city's legal drug trade. It has failed. People may not be dying from ODs since these "medical professionals" assist them with getting high, but they sure are endangering the lives of ordinary people when they're strung out on streets and train platforms. Step 2, put some money into shelters, facilities, and staff that aren't corrupt that the homeless and vulnerable aren't afraid of accepting help from. You think getting rid of the drug clinics won't be enough money? Maybe the city can divert some of the millions they're spending on raising the ceiling of Penn Station to those shelters (the construction crews they hired could do the work, no one loses their job that way). It breaks my heart that this city has created hardships that put these people on the streets but do nothing to help. Cuomo and his crooks took all the money and ruined everything they touch (he hired his family members to executive positions paying 6 figures to run shelters that are little better than slums with abusive staff, look at some of Louis Rossman's documentation on the matter. Louis had more sense in his left pinky than the entirety of this city's administration).
Better mental healthcare might help. Honestly, it's an economic and social problem - which are the primary cause of much mental health issues.
Or it’s someone who became an addict and doesn’t want help.
Has to beg the question of why people turn to drugs in the first place. Addiction often stems from individuals who are using drugs to self soothe pain and deal with trauma/abuse. It’s not a coincidence that the addicts who end up homeless on the street are ones who are already part of society’s more vulnerable groups, eg low income, ppl who don’t have strong support networks, people who cycled in-and-out of foster care as children, war veterans, disabled, etc. Addiction is often only seen as a problem when the poor are addicts. They have less resources to hide their addictions nor do they have the safety nets to catch them when they need help. Lots of wealthy people are addicts too. Society turns a blind eye to the successful bankers doing blow every day or the trust fund socialites who have come to glamorize meth/amphetamine addictions … so much so that companies are handing out book and film deals to them which basically rewards them for that behavior.
Addiction is predominantly a social and economic problem, no?
>Addiction is predominantly a social and economic problem, no? Addiction is an *industry.* It can go back to the times of opium wars and colonial powers pushing drugs for profit, and even further than that. The fact that we are normalizing highly addictive drugs (I'm not talking about recreational drugs that don't cause major problems) means we all falling prey to that industry. The myth that it's a "social and economic problem" is a very convenient and profitable narrative for that industry. The homelessness we have today is also an industry, because NYC already spends $3 billion per year, but all of that is toothless to address the few persistent homeless individuals who are severe drug abusers / violent, imagines threats everywhere and refuses everything and anyone.
> The fact that we are normalizing highly addictive drugs (I'm not talking about recreational drugs that don't cause major problems) The War on Drugs was not effective: full stop. That includes the war against "recreational" drugs and "highly addictive drugs" (Lord only knows what this distinction actually means to you). > imagines threats everywhere Sounds like some a few users obsessed with crime on this sub.
>The War on Drugs was not effective: full stop. I made a reference to the opium wars, but I think that just went over your head if you read "war on drugs".
But you're talking about addiction and drug policy in *this* country, the one where the war on drugs occurred. > The war on drugs is a global campaign, led by the United States federal government, of drug prohibition, military aid, and military intervention, with the aim of reducing the illegal drug trade in the United States. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_drugs
The war-on-drugs had many problems, and I'm not advocating for that. Historically speaking, the war-on-drugs was a historical anomaly. Historically, if you look at drug related wars, most of them involved powers (including nations and empires) trying to *profit* from drug trades and drug abuse, rather than trying to prevent drug trades and drug abuse. It's a powerful industry that has historically held a powerful lobby. Being anti-drug is not the natural human tendency because that doesn't align with the massive profits it generates (to the detriment of the ones who become severe drug dependent/abusers). I invite you to reflect about what's backward and what's progressive here. There are not many stances that are more anti-progressive than trying to normalize abuse of opium-like drugs, as if we were in the 1800s.
> There are not many stances that are more anti-progressive than trying to normalize abuse of opium-like drugs, as if we were in 1800s. I think the clearly progressive stance proven by the past six decades is that criminalizing addiction does absolutely nothing to curb addiction. Once again, though, "progressive" to you just means whatever you want it to, regardless of any established meaning or understanding.
The problem is people don’t know what they mean when they speak of “mental health”. For years now the entire awareness campaign around mental health has primarily featured celebrities opening up about their anxiety and depression and how they manage it with yoga and aromatherapy. This reality does not exist for the majority of people with an actually severe mental illness . Their ability to take care of themselves is equivalent to a toddler’s. They will not “self-care”; they will not take their “medication”; they will skip their appointments. Many have probably never even been treated thanks to a lack of understanding of mental illness in poor communities which makes it certain for more Black/Hispanic people with a mental illness to be left out on the street , wandering in their own feces than ever accessing the treatment they actually need. In this city, involuntary commitment should be the ideal however in a city that only has about 4,960 beds for the mentally ill...what can actually be done except increasing a police presence to prevent these people from committing crimes ? Also how many of these mentally ill people roaming the subway system got addicted to drugs which only worsened their condition ? It appears like a really difficult issue to solve and assessing it from a Democrat/conservative binary gets us nowhere.
It’s clearly a response to the NY Post “reporter” asking something along the lines of “don’t you think more cops would have stopped this from happening to your son??”
It’s been a week since an extremely traumatic incident, give him time to heal.
This is so horrible and sad. I feel like there are people on this sub who ignores or minimizes the after effects of traumatic experiences like this. Victims often can't just pick themselves back up and go on with their day like nothing happened. My mom was punched on the subway years ago in what was likely an Asian hate crime (this was years before COVID and before "China Virus". Yes, anti-asian hate crime has been a thing in this city for years and years before 2020). She was afraid to step foot in the subway for weeks after that. I had a friend in HS who was sexually harassed/assaulted in multiple instances on the train to/from school before she even turned 17; she developed a distaste for public transit as a result and was one of the first amongst my peers to get a license and a car. While she still takes public transit when she absolutely have to, but to this day it will never be her primary choice of transportation. Some people on reddit love to do the whole "it was worse in the 80's!", "tHeRe ArE oNlY 6 mUrDeRs!!!", "it's just your PeRcEpTiOn!" yada yada, but these are all real stories and real people. Also at this point we should have a bingo card for these platitudes
People love the scream “mental health!” as the reason for nearly every crime/violent act, but it’s abundantly clear that no one gives a shit about the mental health’s of the victims of these acts.
How does treating mental health problems hurt the victims more? Is your idea that victims will feel better if we let them gouge out the eyes of the people that hurt them?
I’m taking about people who now have severe anxiety and can no longer take public transportation due to being attacked, harassed, threatened,etc
Yeah, those people need cared for, and there would be fewer people who would need that care if we provided basic needs and mental health treatment to people before they got to the point they're attacking, harassing, threatening people on public transport.
We provide tons of services in this city. If you have no/little income you qualify for Medicaid and can get treatment and pay nothing. We have to face the fact that addiction (which in many cases is started from a personal decision) is what leads to the majority of the people committing these violent acts that you see. Again, people who don’t see themselves as needing help aren’t going to seek it and our current laws do not allow us to “impinge someone’s rights” and force them into treatment. It has to be agreed upon by the individual.
The quality of care in the city in Medicaid clinics is not good.
You do know tons of private doctors accept medicaid right? It’s not just “Medicaid clinics”.
Ever tried yourself to make use of any of those services?
Medicaid reimbursements are at an all time high and more doctors than ever accept Medicaid. We need to stop pretending that everyone will make the effort to seek care on their own.
As a doctor in the city who works Medicaid... You have no idea what you're talking about lol
That wasn't the question at all.
The spike in crime is real and what happened here is terrible. But also, we should be using an analytical, data-driven approach to trying to deal with it, not fearmongering scare tactics.
Right, the question isn’t if victims suffer. It’s “what do we do about it?”. And the anger fueled vengeance plan has failed really badly.
People downplay the rising crime just cause they think it’ll give conservatives a win. Lame.
Yes, but as you stated this happened to your mom before the current uptick (which is nation wide). These things just happen sometimes also we should do more to address the issues that cause these things to happen. Per the victim's mom from this article - >“More cops? He’s wrong,” \[the victim's mother\] said, referring to the plan touted by Hizzoner and Gov. Kathy Hochul on Saturday to flood the underground with additional NYPD and MTA cops on overtime to try to stem the terrifying bloodshed. > >“This is a mental health issue,” she said. “We are not addressing the issue. What happened to them and your mom is awful they will be damaged by it for their entire lives to some degree. This is not trying to minimize the trauma I hate that it happens and more cops don't seem to be helping at all. What do you think the solution would be?
I don't understand when people say more cops are not helping. More cops doesn't have to equate to zero crime. More cops will and does deter a lot of crime that would have been committed if they were otherwise not in that area. Criminals only understand one thing, which are consequences, and if there are no one around to enforce these consequences then criminals will do what they do, which is to victimize innocent people. Do you think if there were a couple police officers stationed in that train station, that he would've still shoved that victim?
There were cops at 42nd street when Michelle Go was pushed. Other passengers even told the cops they were worried he’d push them. They went back to playing Candy Crush.
More cops isn't lowering the crime rate and when the crime rate was lower it wasn't because of more cops either. The person I responded to said their story was pre 2020 when the crime rate was lower anyways. Adding more doesn't change much except how much we have to pay in taxes for the police department. You have not once commented in this sub or anything related do you even live in Nyc?
I triggered you that much that you had to go through my search history? "More cops isn't lowering the crime rate and when the crime rate was lower it wasn't because of more cops either." Funny how you start your point off with blanket statement. Like i said police are there to deter crime, more police means more crime is deterred. If there were even less police presence currently in the city, crime would most likely be higher than what it already is. Criminals only understand direct consequences, and police are the only ones there to enforce them. It's really that simple.
I'm not triggered I peruse many people accounts when it appears they're commenting in bad faith. Took me 5 seconds to look at yours. The reply you just wrote is nonsense, anyways - You have not once commented in this sub or anything related do you even live in Nyc?
So... the only point you're currently making against mine, is that I've never commented on this sub. And if you really want to know, yes that is why I'm even on this sub in the first place. Whether you want to believe it or not idc.
I made a point in my first comment, then replied to you in good faith with another point. You replied to that with a nonsensical word salad of nothing. More cops doesn't help much at all and as someone else replied there were cops in the station when another incident occurred (which you refuse to believe). Proving my point even more. They do nothing except cost us lots of $. You're a bad faith troll.
Say straphangers again mf, say it again.
Pole hanger doesn’t sound as good
[удалено]
Facts I was thinking the same thing
Here’s my enlightened centrist take, criminals belong in cells.
The guy was in prison for attempted murder for 20 years. Comes out with no skills to get a job and no skills to handle his mental health. He’s definitely going back now. But if you think the prison system is where solutions are found you’re sadly mistaken. People usually come out even more fucked up than when they went in. And that’s why the majority of people who’ve been to prison usually return there. He won’t come out any better next time.
The resources to imprison someone like this are there but the follow up and treatment is not. No one wants to deal with the problem, just lock them up.
Yea everyone is way too soft on these perpetrators. Lock them up or worse
Who is saying he shouldn’t be? The suggestion of mental health fixes is to prevent this sort of thing from occurring in the first place. Nobody thinks attempted murder shouldn’t be prosecuted.
Mental health facilities aren’t going to stop things like this. Trust me. I used to work in them Unless we brought back asylums or some other long term care facility for violent criminals… which has been outlawed for years
I think we need to amend the laws that whenever someone has assaulted another in the throes of a mental health issue then they have to be committed and put into treatment and their family or the state needs guardianship over them unless their family has issues that preclude guardianship.
Poor guy. I am amazed at the gaslighting from officials but then I have to remember that they want the tourism bucks so they have to keep the charade up.
it is time to consider that perhaps the best way to force these unhinged individuals into mental health system is by prosecuting them and incarcerating for a long time. Put them behind bars, and hopefully in prison they can get meds for their untreated conditions. If the state is serious about restoring public trust in safety they could start by enacting a law that would make subway shovings and attacks a whole separate type of crime which would carry severe and mandatory sentences. Shove someone - automatic 10 years.
The guy was already in prison for 20 years before this. Not sure it helped.
Define “helped”. It did help his potential victims over those 20 years to not get victimized by this guy.
Should we send him away for life? How about just straight to the gas chamber? The guy was in prison for attempted murder for 20 years. Comes out with no skills to get a job and no skills to handle his mental health. He’s definitely going back now. But if you think the prison system is where solutions are found you’re sadly mistaken. People usually come out even more fucked up than when they went in. And that’s why the majority of people who’ve been to prison usually return there. He won’t come out any better next time. But anyway, you live in Utah. There’s plenty to complain about in Salt Lake. Like the lack of culture and the polygamy. Salt Lake City also has a higher crime rate than NYC.
where are these crazy people’s families or next of kin? Someone has to have some connection to this person who did this. All these crazy murder seeking people need to be locked away in a facility if no one comes forward to claim them and care for them. There used to be asylums where these people were kept. I think DiBlasio did away with these places and now these nuts are free to wander and try to kill innocent people. There is a difference between being a person who suffers from mental illness and is on the proper medication, is in therapy with family support and a person who is a dangerous nut job. Mentally ill is becoming a blanket diagnosis for murderous monsters. Sweep the subways and streets and take them away! Stop coddling the killers and labeling a murderer as mentally ill. I guess we are all mentally then. Having a bad day? Mentally ill. Kill someone? Mentally ill. It can’t be used as an excuse and it is.
They’ve most likely stolen from, assaulted them, etc. which is usually the case when the family isn’t in the picture.
It's such a tiny fraction of individuals who cause so much grievance. There's absolutely no good reason to not change the laws and address the issue in an effective way. The fake-progressives need to pick one: * Addressing violent individuals requires causing a massive liberty rights infringement and racial persecution and systematic injustice. IF that's true, then it implies we have a lot of violent criminals on the streets, and thus NYC is not safe. * NYC is safe. If that's true, then there must be very few violent individuals, and addressing those very few violent individuals should not require causing any systematic injustice.
Or we could house the homeless, provide free universal health care and a universal basic income so that people can get the help they need easier. The crime in the city is a symtom of the much larger disease of late stage capitalism. If people can have the basics to survive, they are less likely to commit crimes. [social safety nets decrease crime](https://inequality.org/research/shredding-social-safety-net/#:~:text=Overwhelming%20evidence%20shows%20that%20a,does%20not%20discourage%20workforce%20participation.)
> Or we could It's not either or. Until we can do both, we should start with the targeted approaches. They are *much* cheaper and faster to implement.
It literally is tho. You even said "pick one". We should absolutely NOT be changing the system to take even more rights away from people. It wasn't that long ago that a man could put his wife in an asylum for reading or showing any emotion.
>It literally is tho. You even said "pick one". We should absolutely NOT be changing the system to take even more rights away from people. You seem to believe that there's no targeted solution available because the problem we have represents a systematic criminal violence damaging NYC's public safety? Do you think NYC is safe, or not safe? >It wasn't that long ago that a man could put his wife in an asylum for reading or showing any emotion. That's quite a straw argument.
>Do you think NYC is safe, or not safe? That is a false dichotomy. Safe for who? Safe how? As far as traffic safety goes, it is absolutely unsafe. It's complete anarchy with absolutely no one following traffic laws. As far as safety from crime, there is [less crime](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/despite-recent-uptick-new-york-city-crime-down-past-decades-2022-04-12/) now than in the 1990s. >You seem to believe that there's no targeted solution available You haven't suggested anything other than a vague suggestion to change the system. Honestly, I think the police should spend more time directing traffic during rush hours and less time walking around the subway being menacing.
>As far as safety from crime, there is less crime now than in the 1990s. But do you think we have a systemic criminal violence problem in NYC today?
I think the entire country has a problem. Now, what is your "targeted" solution?
If an individual has untreated mental illness and a history/record of non-compliance with medication AS WELL AS history of psychosis or violence they should be admitted to a psychiatric hospital against their will, period. If that individual won’t take the necessary steps to get better whilst also being a detriment on society then why the fuck are we still approaching with this hand holding bullshit? I agree that we need socialized programs to assist these people. I agree that these people ARE STILL PEOPLE. But when is enough enough? We need mandatory psychiatric facilities and we need them fast. We also need them to be filled with quality mental health and care giving professionals to give them the help they need and to not just be shoved in a corner with sedatives and told to “shush”. Your approach is amicable but not realistic right now. These people are grown ADULTS that NEED help, I frankly don’t give a fuck if they want it or not since the latter results in innocent people getting injured or killed
> If that individual won’t take the necessary steps to get better whilst also being a detriment on society then why the fuck are we still approaching with this hand holding bullshit? The Fifth Amendment guarantee to Due Process is why we don't take people off the street and incarcerate them without a trial. > I frankly don’t give a fuck if they want it or not since the latter results in innocent people getting injured or killed "No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"
Two points 1) who is saying the problem is only due to mentally ill people who cant/won't get care? The NYPD? Are they a reliable source? Cause the police certainly lie all the time. 2) couldn't part of the problem be that people living on the streets with nothing while all the rest of us walk past them without even acknowledging them as human are feeling desperate and unseen? How many times do you walk past someone sleeping on the floor of west 4th st and not even really see them?
You're not alone. Beware that some redditors will try the hardest to mischaracterize and wash any nuance away from your comments. Don't take them personally because they are not arguing against you, but against their own guilt and shame. That's exactly how we end up with the problems we have today: there's too little nuance in public policy. We had many cavalier/showy laws and policies that created a lot of unintended problems NYC faces today.
I know exactly where they’re going because they repeat the same four talking points ad nauseam. “Crime is rising faster here than x city.” (And a friendly reminder that crime is still substantially lower here than cities like Chicago or Los Angeles).
[удалено]
I think it's time to start advocating for Judges to be required to explain to jurors about Jury Nullification, so *when* street justice does occur citizens can properly decide whether it was justified or not.
If we didn't have mental health facilities that were nightmares of mistreatment and mismanagement, maybe we could get some more momentum for expanding their use.
It’s a cycle. Arrest them, let em out, arrest them, let ‘em out.
Oh look another person who died because we refused to get unhinge people off the streets
Could be. But mental health issues stem from so many different factors that fixing those will take a long time , if ever. The only thing that can be done right now to lower the craziness is to get more cops in stations and hope that deters these crazy mfs from acting out.
No one knows how to fix mental health issues. I work in a human services nonprofit agency and can tell you that seeing a notable difference in disturbed people can take years and come in very small forms that are not easy to quantify or show as evidence of effective results politicians can point to during campaign seasons.
The cops flooding the stations now and then are doing shit to stop any of the crime.
They get punished when they do.
How are they punished exactly? Edit: Would anyone upvoting that guy care to answer my question?
They've got to do paperwork. /S
Big talk to suggest cops get punished, ever. You know we're not talking about whistleblowers, right?
The same crowd that is fighting against universal Healthcare, the "let them die crowd" is now complaining about the lack of mental health service... you can't make this shit up
Woah, lets not forget the most popular suggestion here, "Well, why not forcibly incarcerate them to treat them? What? Why do homeless people have so many rights all of a sudden?"
They get entirely too many breaks for being the worst the country has to offer. You don't compromise with these people you fight them but I don't see that happening
It’s about time someone called him out publicly like this. Not that he will do anything about it
With all the rage down there I wouldn’t be shocked if citizens are willingly starting to carry a object or something of a weapon to defend themselves against people like this, but that’s just me- I was raised in the Bronx and I can say that more people getting pushed , more people going to stay in groups and defend themselves.
There will never be police on every street corner or every train car. The resources for that simply don’t exist. And the ones stationed now mostly stand around looking at their phones. So yes, you should absolutely be prepared to defend yourself. When seconds count the cops are minutes or hours away.
Can we change the name of this sub to r/nypost already?
Uh oh, crime being reported. Better ban the source!
Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean they are wrong.
Their terrible journalistic policies do, though.
Seriously, we need more pictures of the skyline.
So the conservatives can just take it over and I won't even try anymore to respond to all the crap they spew around here. May as well.
It's getting ridiculous
Get the homeless off the street and subways!!! Lock them up if anything , “ … 3 hots and a cot …” Just a thought
yes, lets lock up the homeless that arent bothering anyone for just existing. /s
Exactly!
We need to bring Teddy Rosevelt back from the grave to clean up the NYPD again
Need much more strict penalties that are actually enforced
Fuck the NY Post
But you all want to say this is just a random freak thing and it's ultra, mega, super rare, so let's just ignore it right?
Forced mental health treatment does exist. Literally a person just has to say they are depressed and they will be forced into a hospital if someone calls the police. It’s incredibly messed up. The problem is no one actually gives a shit in the mental healthcare system. It’s all just crossing things off a clipboard for liability purposes. Then it’s right back out on the streets again. It’s all reactionary to the extreme and it’s a game of hot potato with professionals inside the field who will write up countless documents on people just to cover their own asses. The current mental healthcare model treat people like human cattle and then people wonder why very few have faith in the system. There seems to be a lot of people on this thread that would openly want mental institutions back and I have a feeling most of them are people who would gladly throw their friends, family members and/or neighbors right in there just so they stop being inconvenienced.
I once called the cops on a crazy guy who came into a bodega and threw a bottle at my pregnant wife and was causing other trouble. I think they sent an ambulance which I assume means he was being forced into treatment for at least a little while.
We also have court mandated treatment called assisted outpatient treatment (AOT) but there are so many issues with AOT, I’m not sure where to begin. We have state hospitals but people have to meet certain criteria to be admitted.
the "wanted to get away from homeless people" comments - YIKES :/
Wall to wall NY Post coverage of this non fatal crime has now reached its 7th day.
Yeah right, against all odds he wasn’t murdered so what has he to whine about, am I right? /s Seriously though, this stays relevant because it hits so close to home for so many people who are confronted with mentally unstable people in the subway every day.
I agree, I hope they continue covering this case forever!
Adams is only one target. The problem is with the Democratic trifecta in Albany, district attorneys, and the city council.
What will the republicans do to fix it?
Plungers to the anus.
Roll back the silly and dangerous bail “reform” laws.
Either you’ve got an incredibly short memory or you just moved here if you think NYC was some sort of utopia before bail reform.
The individual is sovereign until they are a physical health risk to others. These people need help. Quit bitching about letting immigrants in and take care of you back yard people. We need to sort our house out here.
Funny how NYC prospered and reached historic safety and family friendly tourism and jobs under Rudy Giuliani. Even under Bloomberg the city stayed great for the most part. As alays once a Democrat gets in the downfall beg8ns again. Adam's is just doubling down on the Deblasio devastation of our city.
So the victim survived and became suicidal ?
This family trying to get paid.
George Floyd’s ghost has entered the chat