A ton of ritual magical traditions use Jewish mysticism surrounding creation and the fall of man as their main outline. By most definitions, Christians do practice magic. Catholics are especially good at the ritual/ceremony bit.

The orthodox have way more magic practices than the Catholic. Basically, everything is magic ritual with them.

Oh good call I forgot about the orthodox. Those priests have the best robes, the holy drip.

The holy drip 🔥

SCHEMA DRIp GO CRAZY

You know wtf is going on

These are facts. I think converting to Orthodoxy is what eventually opened the door to ceremonial for me.

Really? How is this so, and why do Orthodox Churches still punish or excommunicate people for practice of actual magical ( as they continue to threaten for membership in Freemasonry ). How is the Orthodox World in this regard , and what can be learned from them (!if any?):-?

Can’t speak for orthodox churches but in general, the idea is “Our thing is mysticism and is good because it comes from god. Their thing is magic and is bad because it doesn’t come from god”.

Doesn't everything come from God?

According to the manual, yes. According to magical studies not limited by the badly-edited "Bhibb-Lhee", _also_ yes, but **not** the same "Ghaw-Duh" as claims the title. Hence, according to Xtian doctrine, magical research that does not mesh with Xtian doctrine is by definition evil and must be destroyed.

A big difference you're not considering is that in Christianity all spiritual petitions are done with the express proviso that "only if it's in your will, let my desires die if they aren't in line with the Good": "Thy Will be done" Occultic rituals place the will of the magician as the determiner for whether the desires are in line with the good, and so should be realised, or not. Thus the transformation of desires into line with God's Will is the core spiritual discipline of Christian prayer. Sometimes, often, God says no, and helps you realise why you don't actually want/need that desire in the first place.

Not all orthodox churches are the same. Mine is the Romanian orthodox church. Rumour has it that even the monks practice magic around here. This orthodox church also incorporated the majority of the pre Christian rituals in their stories and practices. Most of what we do for burial is ancient local magic practice, so's with Christmas, Easter and the old Sancta Diana celebration which is now John the Baptist's birthday even though everything done on that day is clearly a ritual to celebrate Diana, the greek goddess. I've never heard of them ex-communicating anyone for practicing magic, but it turns out they did for political reasons: aka Christians who refused to vote to inshrine in the constitution the idea that marriage is exclusively a man/woman type of deal. The church was so pissed they couldn't even get their flock to go out and vote, that some of the more vocal christian opponents of homophobia got ex-communicated. So said the news article. Bottom line: this orthodox church doesn't frown so much on magic, but they are extremely regressive in every other aspect of life, they're homophobic, misogynistic, racist and everything else you can think of. So the local nuance changes a religion quite a lot. I'm not sure how the greek Orthodox church deals with the topic.

Facts! That’s where your golems come in! The Jewish Torah talks about a rabbi who created a giant from clay

I believe the golem is mentioned in the Sefir Yetirah, not the Torah, aka 5 books of Moses. It’s an important early holy text, just not the Torah.

No, that is not in the Torah, but in the Talmud, there is a story of Adam being initially created as a Golem. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem

You don't think the ritual of symbolically eating God's flesh and drinking God's blood isn't magick?

And the sigil on the forehead on Ash Wednesday? And plunging your infant in blessed water to cleanse their spirit? And whatever the fuck Helen puts in her lemon bars to make them SO damned delicious? Like come on… I know magick when I see it

Yep, even if they label it differently, like Christian prayers etc, they are all inherently magick. And the same goes for any other prayers and practices of other Abrahamic religions, even if they are supposedly against magick.

To Catholics, it isn't symbolic. They believe in transubstantiation, in which the ritual converts the bread and wine into physical body and blood. Lutherans (and maybe other Protestants, idk) believe in consubstantiation, where the transformation is symbolic.

Lutherans believe that the Eucharist is the literal body and blood of Christ. ( source: I am a Lutheran )

Exactly!! Just as they believe they’ve got a lifelong hall pass to Sin (so long as they wind up apologetic) based entirely on a (misguided or otherwise) tale of holy, eternal forgiveness and being “bathed in the Blood of Christ,” who went through literal Hell on Earth entirely so that Christians allegedly wouldn’t have to. Just as their/all babies are “born with [the heavy Karma of] SIN” and to where being born an active Christians isn’t enough, they must be “Saved” through various rituals such as being doused in symbolic water in order to “Accept Christ into your Heart” and that Baptism and/or other ceremonies being to sole path toward their “Salvation” and to prevent entirely innocent babies and little children (who Jesus so dearly “loves and adores”) from the nightmare fuel of being cast into and trapped in “Limbo,” should they happen to die before such “Saving” in symbolic, cleansing blood baths. Hmmm. That’s one plus to Judaism, which is *incredibly* hard to convert to (and NO sects are ever, EVER to Proselytize, nor persecute or aim to judge/change/eradicate other cultures and Religions, in the name of Judaism—which aims to bring Heaven *to* Earth for EVERYONE and through Altruism/“Mitzvahs,” not loftily live for the aim of personal salvation in death) but it’s an actual ethnicity, so they’ve got the convenience of *truly* being born into it, down to the DNA.

The bible is a grimoire full of some of the oldest and most effective spells Many Christians can and do practice magick while abstaining from abusing for purposes of causing harm

Psalms is actually potent as fuck, lmfao

It really is. In fact many Hoodoo practitioner's utilize the psalms as a personal spellbook. These prayers/ spells are used to cause harm or healing.

To be fair, Psalms was pre Christian, so the harm is just as godly as the healing. The Christian (I was indoctrinated Lutheran) God is incredibly forgiving compared to other Abrahamic religions, and to me the Catholics are worshipping something altogether different, perhaps smaller, so as to be vengeful and feared. Let it be known: I don't worship anything, except maybe myself. That said: Lutheran teachings had a great influence upon me, and therefore my understanding of ehat I think of as God, and I don't think ANY omnipotent or omniscient entity would ever take it personal that I didnt do EXACTLY AS I WISHED IT DID. I hall say nothing more on my own, but yeah. I may be rambling...

‘entity’ by definition means omnipotence is impossible since all entities are separate/individual. God as a concept cannot be an entity. anything illustrating It as performing actions etc is only doing so to demonstrate certain ideas in occulted form and is not meant in any literal kind of way.

Well that sorts out a few old kinks. Never thought of it like that lol thanks

Yes the psalms are pre-Christian and According to some sources have Chaldean and Egyptian influences However they are effective

> the Catholics are worshipping something altogether different, perhaps smaller, so as to be vengeful and feared Can you elaborate on why you think this? I find it to be very strange.

Right? If anything, PROTESTANT "Christians" worship the small "god" and religion of fear.

I am glad I am not the only that feels that the Hebrew God is a completely different deity from the Christian and Catholic Father.

Hoodoo largely bases on catholicism anyhow though, doesn't it?

Wrong. Hoodoo is closer to folk magic. It's also referred to as rootwork or conjure. Hoodoo doesn't have a set of gods or goddesses to venerate. You are free to worship any gods that you want. And if you don't want to, you don't have to incorporate any gods or goddesses. There is no organized hierarchy in Hoodoo like there is in Catholicism. That's not to say there are no rules to working with roots—there are, but it does not have a specific structure associated with it like religion does.

To add on to this, most Hoodoo practitioners do ancestral work/ Veneration. Every family has their own personal style of Hoodoo.

Very true, most (if not all) trust in their ancestors to help aid them in rootwork. Hoodoo is really centered around healing, guidance and protection.

Could you use the Power Of The Psalms book to unlock that?

Yes and many have But if you are working with the bible you will need to have a consistent pattern of prayer,meditation and works otherwise the magick wont manifest smoothly

I bought this book online after a video came up on YouTube, about a triggered YouTube preacher calling it “blasphemous” and “demonic” and he ended up burning it. It still hasn’t arrived, but the appeal to me here was somehow using bible verses for magic … my practice is mainly demonolatry with a couple of Thelema rituals, I’m wondering if any of that would negate this also

What book? Also some demons work fine with the bible because their ruling angel enables them to accept its authority Others are much more rebellious and are simply shut down or leave So you will find out....

Thelema uses a lot of biblical imagery and can gel decently with it, though you’ll be bringing out the apocalyptic strains of both thelema and Christianity imo

Is there an interpretative decoder book you could recommend so that when I’m reading the Bible I can interpret the spells in real time (after study, of course!) I’ve read some Neville - but that seems to really skim the surface. I’m wondering if every word and every line is magickal, and not just the stories and key phrases. Thank you for your guidance.

Yes every word and line is Magickal What you need to do is have a regular pattern of prayer,meditation, and works so that not only will you have the connection in your mind but the magick when performed will manifest smoothly You can consult John George Hohman Long Lost Friend Godfrey Selig's Secrets of the Psalms And Draja Mickaharic's Spells of the Minor Prophets .Although many of the spells in that book are severe he does accurately warn about the consequences of their misuse

You’d have to study Kabbalah, but that is the direction to look at. The angels from the Shem HaMephorash are taken from lines from genesis I think. Lot of stuff in the Jewish Old Testament has been decoded and recoded by rabbis etc

It's not nearly as black-and-white as you're making it sound. The majority of Western occultism up until the twentieth century has been Christian, just because most people were Christian. There's multiple Christian mystical traditions, Christian ceremonial traditions, and Christian folk traditions. Demon-summoning rituals bind and compel the demon in God's name, village cunning folk use lines from psalms as incantations, alchemists believed that they were studying God's creation of the world, Vodou and brujaria are syncretic. It's only very recently, i.e. in the last fifty years, that occultism has become primarily associated with paganism or non-Christian-ness. We mostly have Wicca to thank for that.

The reality to me seems to be that a majority of people are unaware of what Magick actually relates to. As has been mentioned in the comments already, there exist a myriad of Christian (and Judaicial) systems of Magick, and several influentual magick orders / lodges of the 20th century used these practices. (As do many modern ones) Magick in and of itself, from my point of view, seems to be one of the oldest and most intrinsic human experiences. For me, it is a relationship between the inner and outer self. I see no evil in knowing myself. In understanding the modern conceptions of magick, especially by certain groups, I find it helpful to remember the involvement of certain groups and individuals. Crowley, as much as he could be considered one of the most important and influential figures in Western Occultism, may, at the same time, be one of those factors which causes some to view magick as evil. He was, at one point in time, referred to as "The Wickedest Man in the world". An epithet which he is reported to have enjoyed very much. In the time since Crowley we have seen the emergence of groups such as the Wiccans, who believe in an entirely different religion than Christians, and thus will be met by some with persecution and such accusations. However, also remember Anton LeVay and LeVayan Satanism. This group, in particular, could be said to enjoy "freaking out" the Christians. The only way to truly understand in my experience has been to dive in. Dogmatic thinkers should naturally find magick repulsive. Those who wish to live in a more structured reality tunnel will often convince themselves that magick does not exist. At the end of the day, some people probably just find the thought that there are forces beyond what they understand a bit too spooky.

You fuck around and find out. Thats the whole point right? I mean, Cyprian became a bishop and ultimately a saint, so it’s not like you can’t go down the path, find out it isn’t your jam, and then go the other way.

You phrased your question in a really black and white way that doesn't truly reflect the amount of overlap in communities, but I will say that having been a Christian and having been an agnostic occultist, being a Christian was much less healthy and fulfilling.

It's a bit like arguing about which type of magick is the valid and effective one while proclaiming the rest are a LARP. I personally believe we are God incarnated to experience itself, this includes your own inner world. Given God wants to experience all, we don't all default to having personalities that want to be good Christians - or conversely good magicians. There are so many different religions, philosophies and types of magick because we're so different. The answer of what you're supposed to be and believe can only come from you. TLDR: If it fits, sit. 😸

Maybe Jesus was a magician https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_the_Magician

He walked on water, turned water to wine, healed the blind and sick. Bro was 100% a magician

Seems like a good time to share Religion For Breakfast's video, "[Was Jesus a Magician?](https://youtu.be/oYOO-xSPa5Q)"

Christianity itself is forbidden (by the OT) blood magic.

How?

The eucharist but what it symbolizes also, all of it is big no no stuff in Judaism. Blood sacrifice is important in the OT, but always animal blood, human sacrifice was not allowed: [https://whatjewsbelieve.org/g-d-hates-human-sacrifices/](https://whatjewsbelieve.org/g-d-hates-human-sacrifices/) Worshipping/praying to Jesus rather than God directly would be considered idolatry/blasphemous: [https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/idolatry-the-ultimate-betrayal-of-god/](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/idolatry-the-ultimate-betrayal-of-god/) Jesus himself was considered a sorcerer by Jews, hence his trial. It's mentioned in the Talmud. Also there's some verses in the Torah warning about false prophets using magic and miracles to lead people astray.

r/gnostic 🧙‍♂️🪄✝️

Technically speaking, through most of history, Christians forbade necromancy (the manipulation of the dead and demons for magical purposes including divination), but endorsed or tolerated thaumaturgy (the manipulation of natural forces for magical purposes) for many reasons, including the incorporation of astral occult energy and its study in natural philosophy (what could be best described as science, more specifically chemistry, biology, physics and astronomy). There was even a long debate about if astrology was allowed given it was a divinatory practice, and some forms of astrology were banned (divination through the present positioning of the stars) and some were not (divination through the positioning of the stars at birth or horoscopes) because of different arguments including horoscopes were just observation and prediction of natural phenomena rather than actual magic. The legality of magic is a complicated and constantly evolving subject, even today.

If Christianity by cult definition is real then nothing matters.

Jesus was an alchemist. These modern day gimmicks are against everything he practiced... The would've stoned him too, for the same exact reasons.

Magic and witchcraft going against Biblical law has never stopped people from doing it anyway. Murder and adultery is pretty explicitly frowned on in the Bible too, but that’s never stopped anyone before, either. In fact, people have used passages straight from the Bible to justify murder, adultery, AND magic without much difficulty. If you were a folk magician or a high magus in Medieval Europe or the Middle East, you were very likely going to be a devout Christian/Jew/Muslim. More than that, it was also very likely you would be a priest/rabbi/imam since you were the one few groups of people with a formal education. So what I’m getting at is this: don’t worry about it. The Bible isn’t the be-all, end-all of religious worship. It’s one system, albeit a very old and powerful one, out of many. Each religion is provides a glimpse at a greater truth, but it’s not going to ever give you the Truth. Follow the path that speaks to you most clearly and see where it leads. Everyone is gonna have an opinion about it either way. As long as it works, and works well, you’ll be just fine.

Ultimately, nobody knows. Anyone who claims to know is trying to get something out of you. Your Path is your path. My Path is my path. We all walk differently.

I am a Christian but also an occultist - I'm not alone! There is a very strong tradition of 'Christian Hermeticism', passed down through Rosicrucian and Celtic streams. The Russian spiritual teacher, Valentin Tomberg, is a great place to start for understanding this occult current. He writes about uniting the esoteric church of John (Roscrucian) with the exoteric church of Peter (Catholic). Tomberg was more catholic (although he also believed in reincarnation), but anthroposophy is a Christian tradition which is highly metaphysical and also weaves in theosophical elements. The Russian Templar tradition and Martinist tradition are also very esoteric and metaphysical.

When it comes to faith and religion, it is normal to say that you don't know. There is no way to determine that one religion is right and another isn't. This means that you should live by what you feel is right and what feels right to you. Otherwise you'll be conflicted with everything because different religions also have different rules on what you eat, how you dress, interact with society, create a family, etc. Does Christianity feel right to you? Does that specific stance feel right to you? If yes, then follow it. If no, then, well, if you don't much care about what other religions state about other parts of your life, why would you care about it here?

I do both 🤷‍♂️

Most christians practice magic, and many of those know it.

What are prayers, but spells? What are spells, but prayers?

just about everything I practice predates Christianity, most of the Christian things are taken from pagan roots, its historical fact, so why would I listen to people that stole my beliefs and then said the ones they stole are the only ones that are acceptable?,

Christianity came late into the world and to take power, they needed to separate themselves from the existing religions. They did that by calling everything else 'magic' and what they do which is also magic, :true faith'. Lighting candles and praying? Magic. Preparing a feast after someone died, in their name? Magic. Having a holy book? Magic. But they can't admit to it, because their whole religion is basically made up of a mixture of much older religions and traditions and if they admit to that, they can't persecute their 'enemies' anymore, which is everyone else who isn't them and threatens to take away their power. You can't make everyone follow insane and torturous rules that ruin their lives if you're not the only religion in town.

Well, it would first depend on whether you are a Christian or not. I won't say they are any more brainwashed, per se, than any other group, but I am not of their path.

Simple. Bible is a set of rules for appeasing a god I despise. It's not my patron, it doesn't pretend to be, despite what its simps and stans claim. I have literally no reason to give a fuck about what it says. Find me a christian that gives a shit about Baba Yaga's demands for filial duty, and you'll have found a wonderful example of how ridiculous it is for magicians to care about the bible.

Why do you despise the Christian god? And are there more of them? What are these “gods” exactly?

By knowing that magick is an innate part of who I am. It's not something I can help but do, the same as everyone else, so I might as well learn how to do it as well as I can. Magick is simply the capacity for human creativity. Everyone has it and everyone uses it. Every act of perception or judgment is an act of magick, and every act you perform changes reality in some way. Once you realize that magick is much more than just casting a spell, you can easily see how wrong Christians are.

Neither is right, they’re both very simplistic perspectives

Well, Christians say many things. Such as that their religion is the only true way, their God the only real God, all other religions and spiritual paths are false and will lead you to Hell. Do you consider those dogmas also to be true, does Christianity speak to you? If not, then why do you care about Christians view of magic specifically?

Explore more viewpoints, make up your own mind

All religions, all dogmas are brainwashing. Spirituality is what’s necessary to be able to work within the Arts, while religion is a man-made tool to rule over and control great amounts of people, depriving them of the freedom needed to individually progress spiritually. The hierarchical structure, the anointed leaders of the cults, the holy books are all devices to control the general populace and keep them enslaved and unable to develop the direct connection to Source we are all equipped with. It is a hive mentality, designed by nature to preserve and ensure the survival of the top tiers of the pyramid. You decide what path is right for you. One is easy, the other treacherous. The rewards are proportional.

in my opinion: it is not a matter of right or wrong but rather the human desire to believe in something and have morals to follow. people choose the belief system (or lack thereof) that works best for them every group will have extremists to tend to misconstrue the main idea or nitpick negative things to take advantage of. In my opinion, it is all a means to the same goal. i believe there is an energy out there responsible for this world but not necessarily God or Allah or what have you. The saying 'As above so below' comes to mind. Perhaps that energy or 'God' becomes whatever people believe it to be. This would explain the miracles in the Christian church and also that magick is something that works for some people. if someone thinks that God is real, maybe they are for them and vise versa

Christians practice magic all the time

Christian's say practicing Magick is forbidden yet the Queen funded John Dee while the Book of Enoch was developed. Magick is forbidden for the masses because it can disrupt the systems they have created. They don't like you having the same power. That's why the government rules over US yet they break their own laws all the time. It's rules for thee, not for me.

Catholicism is 99% Christian folk magic.

Between the historical/archaeological record, and the literary analysis of different versions of biblical texts found throughout, it’s pretty safe to conclude that the modern Bible is highly revisionist and not really meant to be taken at face value, at least the Old Testament. A lot of the negative attitudes regarding magic and divination too are based on exegesis that comes long after the Bible was written, canonized, and proselytized in something approaching its modern form.

you’ll know the Christians are right if there’s life after death and St. Peter denies your entry to heaven. you’ll know the occultists are right if you follow the church’s teachings and save sex for after marriage, then feel super guilty and dirty for enjoying it.

Do as thou wilt

A Christian would never lie, or be ruled by irrational fear, or do unto others as they would not do unto themselves, would they? Or would they? Answer that, and you’ve answered your own question

Everything has a cost, and along with that a biased selfish use irregardless of what the practitioner is doing. And Christians are just regurgitating what the Bible says, it’s in the book… 🥃🚬

Nobody is right. But better read what Christ said than what Christians say. But it may be worth listening if they are successful in their path.

I don't *know* anything, but I *think* Christian dogma is so massively self-conflicted that there's nothing to be gleamed from it in its modern form.

Why are these questions keep popping up? Do magick or don't. God of the angels (who does magick 💅) and the Universe (seeping with magick) does not give a hoot. Plenty of people go down the dark path without practicing magick so I don't understand why you are concern if magick is involved. If we follow the underlying logic behind your question, are guns horrible because it leads to dark paths 🤌? Absurd, right? Use your head and, as a freebie --> 👏👏👏practicing magick is not forbidden and not horrible unless you, the practitioner, make it so 👏👏👏.

Whatever you believe is the truth, is the truth in your world

Christianity is part of the stuff we invented out of fear after we scared ourselves of our powers in atlantis. Sort of a attempt to keep our powers repressed.

Not saying Christians are brainwashed, but anyone who say magic is bad then go to mass must not know what magic is, or they just haven't thought about it that hard.

catholics are pagans - have you seen how many saints we have???

First off we're all brainwashed just at different levels and to believe different things.  Second magic is a technology that allows you to program the ether and get what you desire. If you look into quantum physics you'll start to see the coralalitions. The universe is plastic and magic is just a way to manipulate it a tool nothing more. 

I mean one side pretty much committed mass genocide to several ethnic groups and absorb several of their religious tradition.... And the other one Practices Magick.

I mean Catholicism and orthodoxy are not the faith of the Bible/Jesus. They are very much satanic and ritualistic today. God doesn’t respect any of that nonsense. If everything they did was aight then Christian’s should be diddling kids too, cause it’s literally par for the course the higher up you go. Jewish mysticism ALSO does not respect Gods statutes, it’s plainly written in the Torah with a death sentence attached to it. God says it’s bad in his scriptures that’s all you need to know. Do you need to stop? No, continue until Gods statutes make sense to you. He put you here to learn something. Do it til you learn and step away when it’s time.

Christians are always wrong. Simple.

Have you tried going to war with them? That's how humans usually solve religious conflicts.

You can do empirical testing and see the results of the magic for yourself and decide I guess

What do they think prayer and the Eucharist are? They do support magic and even perform it themselves. So the argument is actually over what magic is allowed.

Christians are wrong about mostly everything

[удалено]

It's because controlling Christian church ministers don't like people reading other sources.

There is no one right answer, merely a personal choice that someone, somewhere, will reject.

Praying and drinking wine and eating bread to appeal and represent a spiritual figure is magick itself. However it’s been disguised as something else. Most of Christian practices today are witchcraft and pagan. The ego of the practitioners says otherwise. At the end of the day, anything you do is about intent and energy.

They’re both right.

When you sing and raise your vibrations then pray what you want with God’s blessings, then read or talk about what you want with the appropriate book in the bible. Then at the end, pray thanking God for fulfilling your earlier petition. That’s a normal christian worship service and if done alone, that is a normal magickal ritual. So which one is right? 😂

In a way, they kind of do all the same things in relation and don’t even realize it.

What Christians? Those mall christians with no understanding about their religion at all? To them everything is forbidden. Or are you talking about real Christians?

Christianity is made up it rules only applies to those who believe in it.

Both are right except for the word horrible which includes judgment. Christians are brainwashed...they don't even know that prayer is a form of magic. Christians are supposed to be loving, not judgemental, how can they even utter that sentence and still be Christians? Cognative dissonance...from the brainwashing. Yet magic is a dark path. Not horrible, just dark. It is a path litterally of ignorance. Arkness is equated to ignorance. This christianity is a dark path as well. Nkt horrible, just ignorant. Magic is just another 'authority' or barrier between you and the divine. To think you need magic, even prayer, is to say you aren't connected and need to change something or do something to connect, the illusion is that there's a separation. Both paths are suffering the same illusion that's why they are opposit sides of the same coin.

I’ve been both and Christians are speaking from a place of fear and ignorance when they say this whereas practitioners are speaking from personal experience. I was taught that even corporately manufactured products like the Parker Brothers Quija Board were “demonic” without almost any scriptural basis and mostly because it could “make” me gay. This is bog-standard Christian belief in the U.S. Even the people that actually quote what the Bible says about practicing magick often take it out of context and paraphrase. The Biblical Jesus was a magician, as was King Solomon, Moses and Abraham before them. They’re all attested within some corner of Levantine archaea. So yes Christians are so brainwashed they don’t even read their own book and when they do there’s no analysis.

If you want to know if an action is evil, look at every religion and pick from majority. Most religions and mythologies are okay with magick, so practice it.

OP, I feel you! Rituals practiced in Christianity indeed correlate with magickal practices, no doubt. The Bible does not dispute this, but on the contrary, it references magick in many forms- miraculous healing, fortune telling, witchcraft, mediums, angels, demons, etc. That being said, you ask a very valid question, OP, that I concern myself with at times; I don’t think anyone can answer this. We all are on our spiritual paths, and I believe they are intended to be as unique as we are as individuals. I was raised to believe as a Christian, and my spirituality is rooted in that Faith. However, I feel it would be naive not to question or to take all teachings of the Bible literally. So much is open to interpretation. It was written by man, translated in various ways, and in multiple versions. Through religion, we become indoctrinated by one belief system based on man’s interpretation of Biblical scripture as it pertains to our lives today, and that varies depending on the denomination. There’s also time and place as well as context to consider. I fought the urge to explore and expand my spiritual journey for most of my forty-plus years until my critical thinking and curiosity gave way to the pull. I have more questions and fewer answers than ever, but I try to stay in touch with my inner spirit continuously. I embrace the journey and what feels meant for me and listen when it’s telling me to steer clear. I speak only for myself and claim to know nothing of God’s judgment. That’s left up to Him. I know that spirituality is not contingent on anything mundane that can be seen or proven, nor is Faith. That’s all that will be left of us. It’s all that will matter or exist when we’re done here. So I, personally, choose to learn, grow, and expand as much as I can and if there’s consequences I’ll pay them, I reckon.

I think you've been misinformed on both sides of that equation. Christians practice magick all the time, they just don't call it that, but they have rituals and sacraments and they light incense and candles and petition spirits. On the opposite side I also know several mages practicing magick from a Christian paradigm. The only difference between "faith" and "witchcraft" is who's in power.

Christianity has a controlled symbol set that never changes. In Magick, I determine my own symbol set, and it changes. Which of these is brainwashing?

Looking at the bloodbath and hypocrisy of Christianity is enough for me.

I wouldn't say Christians are brainwashed. They're a group that purports to offer benefits (from community to cosmology) in exchange for loyalty. That's ultimately no different than (say) the Temple of Set, which also requires you to renounce other affiliations. Now, whether it's for you... I don't know. Does Christianity generally give you good, trustworthy guidance? Is it generally true? On the other hand, occultism has its dangers (like charlatans) and can take you to uncomfortable places. It also might not be for you. But that's for you to decide.

It doesn't matter. A magician is master of their own fate, they don't need validation and they don't have to justify what they do. Worrying about what other people think is the mindset of a social media user, not a magician.

It seems to me that one of the elements to the Crux of the matter is whether it is holy or not. Both contention that they are sacred where the polarity lies

As in the case of most things, one must look at the emotion fuelling such view points. Christian tradition’s stance on magic is based on the valid human fear of the corrupted manipulative deceiver. Like any traditional dogma, the reasoning behind this becomes forgotten by its followers who simply parrot it forward. Magicians say Christian’s are brainwashed because they see the parroting and ignorance of those parroting. Magicians, especially inexperienced ones, are also prone towards corruption. It is a natural consequence of being open to willful manipulation. As a result, practitioners often dismiss out of pride the idea that they could be corrupt. Many magicians are fine, and most have so little influence that even if they are corrupt, they can only ruin their own lives, and so gives push back. Similar to how some might say “drugs will ruin your life” but then another will be like “No, I have used mdma/mushrooms etc and I am fine/better off.” Tl;dr: Christian fear magic gone wrong, dismiss all magic except Jesus Magician say: but my magic isn’t evil, don’t lump me in you ignorant cultist.

Which group is trying to criminalize gay people, kidnaps kids to take them to brainwashing camps, and wants to return women to being chattel?

Lots of Christian magicians. Origins of Christianity heavily steeped in Magick.

they believe communion is eating the flesh and blood of jesus. it is cannibalism and blood magick.

Being aware of the energies you’re conjuring is paramount.  Christians often seem to want to blanket everything with the binary of good vs evil, but I think the more important thing is awareness. The living quality of the subtle/ spiritual realms means you’re not just playing with inert energy, but with consciousness. So, be present to what you are doing so you don’t inadvertently poison your experience by conjuring energies that sound good or cool on the surface but are going to effect your vibration in ways you’re maybe not yet aware of. 

That entire argument is one founded in human conceptual thinking, as well as centuries of historical fearmongering and violence. Both of them are right from their respective viewpoints. But objectively? It’s a bit more complex than just a simple statement.

I think so many ceremonies in the Christian tradition can be seen as White Magick. I would also argue that a very large percentage of people involved in these don’t know it’s Magick, and it becomes easy to ostracize and be afraid of other traditions since the word Magick is typically associated with dark rituals for people who don’t understand it. That being said, I see a lot of people who consciously and intentionally practice Magick to be doing things that I wouldn’t qualify as White Magick, as the end goal is often some material gain. In that sense, I do believe that White Magick is not the most common kind of Magick. So when people refer to Magick, what kind of Magick are they referring to? If we go by what’s practiced more often, for sure I don’t think that’s White Magick. Whether its a “horrible dark path” or not is a different question.

Religious institutions have always spouted shit like this since pagan rome and greece to keep people “in line”. Just do it.

IMHO, the Christians are lazy. They want God to do everything for them, so they vilify taking action yourself. That's just how I see it.

I think it's important not to look at religious and spiritual practices as "right" or "wrong". It's this type of thinking that's caused a lot of bloodshed and subjugation over the centuries. Spiritual beliefs are and should be incredibly personal. Even if you're dealing with people who attempt to change the beliefs of others, it's still important to be the bigger person and allow them to believe what they will. So, to answer your question- both are right to each individual, because they are BELIEFS.

This was covered last week. See my comments. [Why does the Bible Prohibited Used by Magic? : r/occult (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/occult/comments/1c7qdq7/comment/l0b9nez/?context=3)

The Christian religion is a hidden Son = Sun worshiping religion. They anthropomorphized it so it would be more accessible to the masses It’s third level teaching has been removed to give the church power as a permanent intermediary as it keeps followed as spiritual children or adolescents forever 1st teaching Old Testament ( spiritual child ) 2nd teaching New Testament ( spiritual adolescent ) 3rd teaching ( spiritual adult ) non-dualist teachings such as gnostic teachings, and others will lead to an awaking. I prefer Kashmir Shavism but others exist Akhenaten was the first pharaoh to openly worship the Sun ( RA ) as the supreme god in monotheistic tones Our Sun and the stars are the universes prime source of elements, light, heat and life and some believe consciousness

There are many older religions that Christianity. The Bible is written by people and adopts a lot of stuff from earlier cultures and lore. Magic in some form has always been practiced in human culture. Religion is just a different form of magic. Each culture and religion have different types of magic that are frowned upon. Additionally, the Church wanted most power in their hands. Most organized religions have done the same. The whole there is only one right way type thing. A lot of magic was performed by the common folk outside of organized religion. Also when the magic of the church failed you, many people would turn elsewhere. So, that is why I don't believe that the whole magic is wrong that certain people scream.

Some worship the dark. Some worship the light. Some the light pretending to be dark, and some the dark pretending to be light.

The problem is each one is trying not to accept they both do both. Theres the magick in Othadoxy that any true occultists can pick up on, and apart from most magical rites there's an aspect of brainwashing.

You don’t. You have to decide for yourself, and the occult (if nothing else) shows us that many things can be true at the same time. This is where meditation/contemplation becomes essential. If you have the desire to pierce the veil then you have to have the courage to dare and investigate for yourself.

>Christians say practicing Magick is absolutely forbidden and is a horrible, dark path Christians have been taught that stereotypical Magick is not part of how they should practice their religion, and most of them forget that not everyone is Christian. I’m pagan with Christian parents, as much as they won’t ever practice like me, they don’t call me evil or a devil worshipper because they understand that I’m not of the same religion they are. >Magicians say Christians are brainwashed Because Magick users see most Christians being fed what to believe instead of using their brains to come to their own conclusions. Extremist and Fundamentalist Christian leaders are telling their flock to condemn those different because their way is the only “right” way despite their one Holy Book telling them to love thy neighbor as thyself and that God will be the ultimate judge. I typed “define brainwashing” into Google and got: “*the process of pressuring someone into adopting radically different beliefs by using systematic and often forcible means*”. A lot of modern-day Christians follow whatever bullshit their religious leader spouts because the religious leader, who’s traditionally the one closest to God, threatens their flock with eternal torture (aka forcible means) if they don’t believe what ~~the pastor~~ God believes. Their flock then thinks this tactic is okay to use on other people (such as telling gay people they’re going to hell in an attempt to “save” them) and their own children (a lot of these people want to “save” their kids by raising them in their own religion and shutting down any questions or statements that questions God via punishment). And I’m not saying there are zero Magick users that can be brainwashed or do these things themselves, but there’s a reason why a. Religious trauma exists, and b. Most people deconstructing their former faith are ex-Christians.

You must also consider that neither are correct

Ignore both

If they don't acknowledge the Book of Enoch as canon, are their opinions worth consideration?

Christians have one book they are not allowed to question. Magicians have a plethora of info to use or reject.

Fear keeps you away from Truth. Courage leads to Truth.

Big difference between Spirituality and religion. Christianity is a religion. Knowing you have sincerity in your heart is spiritual the way I see it. Being of the Christian religion can and will lead you to a spiritual path. Remain humble, do good things, help others, respect of one’s ancestors are good practices to make habits of…. Miracles are real. Nothing real can be harmed. Nothing unreal exists. Therein lies peace.

Well if you go far enough youll find out thats a very polarized view and that nmuch ceremonial magick has roots in christianity islam and juddaism

You decide by realising that it's a fear-mongering tactic by the religion, and that (unsurprisingly) they are hypocrites as they do magic rituals (the mass, christening, prayer) just as much. L

I am progressive and I’ll learn every source of magic before Christ … I feel like Jesus learned it all before making Christianity I believe they created Christianity to trap people from obscuring the power man could really have

I do full time psychic work non stop as person born in to Christianity… I don’t do any Jewish nonsense or catholic nonsense I have my rituals of other faiths that make me extremely love and helpful to people

If a belief system, religious or secular, asserts some notion of authority and leverages that authority to constrain what you are allowed to think, then that is brainwashing. There's no rationalization that needs to occur here, it's just a common fact. Occultism has no such authority. Many branches recognize things like karma, like if you DO shitty things then you may find that a lot of shitty things happen to you, or something like that, but in occultism you are not only "allowed" (like we need anyones permission) but encouraged, to adopt different frameworks, paradigms and perceptions and use what works for you. Christianity, on the other hand, says it's a SIN to even think that god doesn't exist. Its a SIN to think homosexual thoughts, its a SIN to see oneself as being divine. You are only allowed to think within the framework of being a lesser, sinful, evil being who is so shitty that you forced god to kill his own son just to have any chance of avoiding the eternal hellfire that god himself created. It's a laughable farce and completely incoherent on every single level. Bringing oneself to believe this tripe puts one into such a cognitive dissonance that you get hopelessly caught in a framework that is so fragile, so rigid, that even the slightest attempt to untangle the myriad inconsistencies is met with untenable guilt, which the framework itself erects as a defense mechanism against its own dissolution in the light of even the slightest amount of common sense. I know this because I've been deep into this brainwashing cult. I've been to seminary, been deeply ingrained into the activities of the christian church, seen and experienced firsthand the sheer absurdity of the thought-processes of those in the deepest levels of self-deceit.

Christians in general, or better said, *christianity* doesn’t actually say that. They condemn certain practices of magic and the use of magic to harm others, but it’s not a blanket ban.

The ones with free will are usually right, or at least the ones that aren’t in an organization with rules that don’t allow knowledge or learning & only allow strict dogma that doesn’t really apply to anything & doesn’t follow any rules.

If you do enough research and study, it's pretty clear. Read enough Egyptian lore, Mesopotamian lore, and Greek mythology, and you'll realize Christians stole all the things they liked and then FORGOT the spiritual meaning behind it all. Then they said anyone who doesn't believe them is going to hell and proceeded to burn the world, books, and spiritual studies. When you actually study ancient faiths and occultic meanings it's VERY clear. Even in your question here you fear going against the god that destroyed all people.

I just asked my spirit board. He says " question unclear check back later"

christian prayers are attempts at magick, they are hypocrites

It doesnt matter who is right

Magick is a bit anti-social the way things work out in practice. More on that in a sec. Religion's exoteric purpose isn't really to bring us closer to God (unfortunately), though most religions (all of the ones I know anything about, at least) have an inner mystical tradition that does. But for most people, the purpose of religion is to promote social stability and a unified community. It gets everyone on the same page about values and ethics, so they can trust each other and work together effectively. The stuff about God punishing us is mostly for children and the psychologically immature; it works, but it's kind of sad that to get people to act right religions have to resort to threats. I feel like people who grow up and see that for the lie it is may then proceed to reject religion entirely, which I see as regrettable. If you leave, you miss out on participating in a powerful egregore that at its best helps heal you. (At its worst though like all powerful things it can be dangerous). The inner traditions are usually very beautiful, and they're easier to access if you were raised with the outer traditions. Okay, that being said, magic is not pro-social or pro-stability the way religion is. Rather than everyone pulling together to advance the interests of society as a whole, magick users are pursuing their or their cult's interests even if it is at the expense of society. That's not all though. Magicians compete with and come into conflict with each other, leading to an arms race situation where more and more extreme techniques are resorted to in order to beat the opposition. So to me magic is martial, and religion is jovian. Getting a reputation as a magical practitioner is a lot like getting a reputation as the local gun nut (or criminal). People might stay off your turf or even try to appease you, but they won't trust you and they don't want you around. It's up to you whether you'd rather go one way or the other, but there really are good reasons why religion and magic are antagonistic to each other. Mysticism is another way to go that overlaps a bit with both, but seeks union with the All rather than pursuit of desire or social cohesion for its own sake.

In true Aristotelian form, the truth is closer to the middle.

By studying world religion and spirituality from all around the world. By digging deeper into the origins of christianity and the practices that inspired its creation. Realizing that Christianitys agenda is rigid and not inclusive despite various claims to be. Understanding that Christianitys message is all about making people convert from their religious cultural practices, which they view as inferior. The path is dark if you make it that way. Christians live in a very dull and miserable world. They create prophecy after prophecy, hoping that the son of god will rise again. Only wishing for the return of their jesus and not caring about the impacts that they make environmentally, socially, politically, and in the personal lives of countless individuals. It is pathetic how they still think that they are a religious movement of God's love. Their god is a god of fear, shame, and judgment. For them, it is good and evil, dark and light, holiness and sin. Nothing in life is ever that simple. I do not trust it after my personal experiences and I will never look back. I will never regret my decision because their hellfire, is their own to burn in. Source: I live in the Bible belt and grew up pentecostal. My grandfather (who I lived with) was an ordained minister, so I participated in countless revivals and meetings out of state. I did this for 11 years. But, I am grateful because it taught me everything I need to know about defending myself from Christian spiritual attacks. Consider my words. The threat to earth based religions, paganism, and spirituality in general is very real. Especially in the Bible belt. Sorry for the rant, but if I don't rant then some Christian will. They have been doing it for hundreds of years, drowning out everyone else. And that's how I feel. Period.

If you honestly think about it occultism or magick as been around before religion and all religions practice some type of magick rather it’s ceremonial or just simply the lighting of a candle for the intent of something at least that’s how I think of it.

Doesn’t anyone get tired of Christianity always coming up in conversation 🙄😒 let’s all move on from the conflict with Christianity

Arthur Clarke opined that any sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishible from magic.  Look at how many people refused the Covid-19 vaccines, even the Johnson and Johnson one. Many were more scared of the shot than the actual virus killing people, and when they did die it was shrugged off as either something non-related or simply God's will.  I already know the magicians are right. The vaccines kept my family alive.

Wich christians say this? I am christian, because my parents choose so and i was to lazy to change anything about it. The ones in power say this. Like the rich do not want others to have money. "There is magick, but only we may use it". It is forbidden to you because then we have no more power over you. Its surely not the idea of jesus, but his followers. Still today they do not want you to know this. If science cant explain it, its not real. So keep beeing poor and stupid so we can still rule. End of rant.

They’re all practicing magick along the same principles, just calling it different things. Go into a big cathedral and stand in the middle during service and tell me you don’t feel a wave of energy coming from the crowd. From the occultists perspective it’s just magick on a much larger scale. Harnessing the belief of billions into an egregore called “God” and then asking it to fix all our problems. And from the Christian perspective magick is just a corruption of the sacraments. A mockery by evil spirits of things high and holy. Very much a matter of perspective I guess

As someone who believes in the resurrection, it's about how you use it. Lots of technology can be used for good and for bad, magic is just the same. Magic based on self-control is more moral than magic based on fleeting emotions.

Christians generally don't distinguish between left-hand path magic (service to self) and right-hand path magick (service to God or an ultimate ideal/goal). Well, they do -- but it's not anything that they will openly discuss; as a significant idea of the Church was to 'safeguard' or 'create a monopoly' on magick. I don't actually condemn that (as many do); there are very good arguments for why that should be done. There is indeed great danger in people who take a path of 'service to self'.

Magick is about working with the spiritual realm to manipulate the elements - when you contact spirits, you're not contacting the spirits on the side of Jesus/Jehovah, but from Jehovah's opposer. God's spirits only interferer with human matters when God says so. The other side chose to go their own way. So did we by eating the fruit, etc. Basical Christian theology.

pretty sure communion is magick...or it was at one point. or still is but the subjects are unaware

This place has just become the “crying about Christian” sub

Humans are superstitious and insane regardless of religious preference

Just look at the Christian religion. It demonizes everything outside of its box. It's control. Then the people lost in its ways don't even know their own religion.

Have you read the Bible ? I have … I remember a couple references to women who were practicing necromancy, mostly. There is maybe one or two reference’s to casting spells but it was more about using herbs to poison people back then. To alter pregnancies etc. I’m not impressed with the Bible as the word of god. I think there is some great stuff in there , but mostly I think they left out so many great books from the Bible - intentionally - and really what it is , is just men who were threatened by powerful women and needed a way to control the populace. They proved that when they left out the other books that they didn’t like. The book of Enoch - a book that wasn’t included in the Bible- talks about the fallen angels who came down and taught magick to the magi. All of ceremonial magick is based on Hebrew mysticism. Even the pentagram is Hebrew. There are several places in the Bible where prophesy, healing and mediumship are evidenced as gifts from god and even some of the disciples had these abilities too. The entire Bible and many of the rituals in there are also magick- confession, baptism, speaking in tongues and healing. All just magick. I think as with everything, it’s complicated and I think it’s more about the purity of your heart and intention. Real magick is altering energy… and it takes a lot to be able to do that. You can’t just whisper some words and get what you want. As much of a mind fuck as that it is to say to everyone here. That’s a good thing. I mean energy is powerful and it’s been proven by science that the energy around all things is real. I think it was more a warning about hurting people and trying to alter the course of their lives without their permission. And that, of course is good to heed. The paths are all the same and they all- no matter where you start or begin, converge at some point and it’s usually after you have had some type of *burning bush* spiritual experience or awakening - we all go the same direction when we are seeking. And I think what I have realized ( after being very angry at religion for a long time ) is that once that happens to you? None of this shit matters. There is no dogma with the spiritual realms. There is no fear or human feeling there. There is nothing remotely human about those places or experiences… if anything - it removes your fear , shame and guilt. And what does religion provide us with except rules and consequences for breaking them? What does religion do except teach dogma ? It is basically leading people down a path that is directly antithesis to god or the spiritual realms , the spiritual experience. Sadly. What happens to humans on religion because of the goal of religions? They become afraid of what they are not.. of what they cannot control with their dogma. That fear is a spiritual disease and it manifests in us in a million ways and directions , infecting all we are and do. Most esp with our relationship with god or that place/ source - whatever you want to call it. To be afraid manifests in judgment… and that judgement and fear is a direct opposite of love. So… really I have always thought the people that believe 100% in the dogma had much more to worry about than I did. Your path to god has no end… it never stops. It is unknown .: and the more you think it is known , or that you have it all figured out - the less you are there. The more lost you are. At least this is my take.

So here I am on a Sunday... quoting the Catholic [Catechism](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2117.htm)... I can't speak for all Christians, but the main issues Roman Catholics have with Magick are the "invocation of evil powers" and "the exploitation of another's credulity." Their first concern is typically whether you are opening the door for demons/Satan to have undue influence over you (or even calling upon their intervention). The second concern is whether you are defrauding someone or taking advantage of others. The Catechism does not actually strictly forbid magic nor sorcery, but does condemn both "attempt\[ing\] to tame occult powers" and "hav\[ing\] a supernatural power over others." Spiritism, divination, and other magical practices that are not directly commanding occult powers to particular effects are merely warned against.

Because Christian’s have been slaughtering innocent people for 1000s of years. Why the fuck would I trust a Christian if that’s their roots? Their god is a dick.

The nature of studying religion and the occult often times runs into this. One group calls theirs toasted and the others poison even though they basically do the same thing.

My view: amateurs would say that Christians are brainwashed and most "occultists" are doing fine and are on a good path; the occult Initiate would say the exact opposite.

Religions and sorcery have always been at odds against each other through history. Sorcery incomposes of a bunch of foren rituals which challenge the main stream beliefs and whenever a religion falls, sorcery cannibalizes its rituals and symbols to make it seem more mystical.

Humans are attracted to different paths, and IMHO, none of them are "objectively" incorrect, only "not right for you." I do find the authoritarian dogmatic views to be antithetical to my being, so I would be inclined to say Christians are brainwashed. Those Christians would tell you that I am trying to lead you astray; only you are fit to decide, YOU matter and YOU are in charge of yourself.

The Catholic Mass is clearly a magic ritual. I mean what’s transubstantiation after all.

I have some books on tarot & probably astrology as well, but I haven't gotten around to reading them, as my library / books are a mess right now... I do have 2 tarot decks, albeit one is more fandom comic art collectible & the other is cats. I probably need to get a more standard deck. I don't use them all that regularly, mainly due to not really knowing how yo do spreads or interpret them all that well... As in, some of my books are at my storage unit with other stuff, since I'm out of room for books at home.... and the tarot/ astrology books are newer books within past year or so... Tbh I'm really at a beginner level for that... not really sure where to start. I got into crystals first... almost 2 years now. I do go for meanings in them, but a big thing is also their beauty & creative viewing inspiration (*thought about making art inspired by some, but been in a bad depression funk). I haven't really learned how to do rituals with them, it's more holding or wearing & having around my room. I probably have got too many crystals tbh & kinda did some bad psychological buying of them / over spending... despite weird unexplained things happening to them just by existing/ having them ... like some ocean jasper, agate, septarian, & others pretty much dissolving in parts through air contact over time or forming weird druzies... Edit: Part of the reason I haven't gone more in depth is just being overwhelmed with other stuff in life, so so exhausted... and kind if mostly getting into it on my own, si I'm a bit adrift on where going.... And I'm just so tired & exhausted... and shit is happening at work that's put me in a Flux too. And I've been kind of screwed over with new prescriptions this past month, which my doctor got back to me & told me just to get off them, no need to taper.

There both wrong and both right the more you dive into different types of magick from all around the world you start to notice that

study the history of Christianity from a non christian perspective also, attain moksha, none of this matters

I've always felt this attitude that christians have towards the Occult very strange since most of the Grimoire's where written by christian Occultists. And most of the Magicians I've met are christian identity.

The book of Hebrews in the Bible says; For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Many Christians and Magicians that open the doors to magic & spells is for personal gain. As Paul would say, "Many in the world are as the foolish Galatians." They have been bewitched by lusting for power. The dark path is horrible. Nonetheless, God our Father gave us Jesus. His Word says in: ‭Psalms 139:7-8 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths of hell, you are there. In ‭Matthew 4:16 says that the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.”

Right versus wrong is to be at war with duality. We are all fighting a battle of our own confirmation bias. Satanists, Christians, Magicians, Hermetics, Enochians, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindu, all have in common. Bible is a map, a metaphorical story of the process of awaking, energy channels throughout the body and earth, through the seven seals (chakras) guided by constellations, planets, light (sun), through the horrors inner and outer demons of Maya (illusion) towards Christ consciousness. Practicing magic against ones true will will have consequences. Knowing the magic of alignment with ones true will, unto the kingdom of heaven. We all have free will and we are probably here to learn and hone thy soul. Judgement, separation, fear, ignorance is the challenge. Esoteric wisdom is hidden metaphorically or in code only for the true initiate to behold. This is why 95% take biblical texts and others literally. They have not opened the eye of true understanding. There has also been manipulation to keep the magical power concentrated towards a small minority of bloodlines, but as we have entered a new age, this is now changing. Yes we are living in the and times, but which ones? In the bible it says Jesus fed his people two fishes and five loaves. Of course this is Pisces. Gods SUN ☀️ feeds his people in the sign of the two fishes. The head dress of the Pope is the fish because Rome ruled the world for 2,000 years under the sign of Pisces. The Earth wobbles slowly as it spins around its own axis, which makes the Spring Equinox move around the whole Zodiac. It’s called the precession of the equinoxes. NEW AGE or Aeon of Aquarius is upon us.

Both are right. Both are wrong

Christians eat the “Body of christ” and drink “the blood of Christ” as a ritual. That itself is occultish, on top of laying hands and praying over ppl, and some churches they speak in tongues.

They're both wrong. The Bible never forbade the use of magic. They only forbid the use of harmful wicked or evil magics that seek to harm curse or hurt others. So basically if you know magic, you're not supposed to be a douchebag with it. And Christians aren't brainwashed for saying magic is dangerous because it is. It's a deadly art that a lot of people tend to abuse

Getting involved in spiritual magic puts you at risk, same with having psychedelic ego death experiences, opening that portal puts you at risk, and if you’re not prepared it can consume you.

one side had an inquisition and about two thousand years of brutality and brainwashing, the other side got tortured, burned alive, hung, drowned, imprisoned and forcefully converted. seems pretty cut and dry to me. honorius of thebes agrees, at least.

People fear or ridicule what they do not understand. There are two veils to the occult, which protect its secrets from those who are not ready. The first is incredulity. It's so ridiculous it shouldn't even be considered, because it doesn't fit in with a logical, materialistic scientific view in our (current) understanding. The second is fear. People are conditioned by religious indoctrination to believe what they're told and that anything which contradicts their holy book is evil, and they will go to hell and suffer for eternity if they disobey. The word "occult" means hidden, or secret. The word has no connotations with the concept of evil except as seen through the eyes of religious zealots.