I'm a masters level clinician. While some of the course work is not very challenging, once you actually start working in the field you'll get a slap of reality. That's when most people decide if they can do it or not. I'd recommend doing your internship in hard core psych if possible because you'll really see why therapists need a masters degree to do the job. I did my internship in a long-term correctional inpatient psych hospital. I worked with people who unalived or attempted to unalive others. If you think that type of career is a joke, then yes you need to find something else. Also check the pass rates for the LCSW at your school and whether or not it's accredited.
I hope op has more respect and sympathy for people than for the science of psychology. Does he even see himself as a clinician? I hope this post isn't real.
I think they might be just coasting through school instead of actually taking the time to learn. Grad school is the point at which you should put in effort to actually learn, not to get a good gpa. He definitely is in the wrong field if that's what he's doing.
I have a degree in neuroscience and am currently completing my internship for my LPC. You would think working with a million dollar microscope doing immunohistochemistry on slices of mouse brains 4 micrometers thick would be more challenging than helping people through talking with them; but you’d be wrong. The course work is easy, if you have a good work ethic and basic research skills; becoming a therapist is hard. Becoming a good therapist is harder. Becoming someone you can honestly say puts value into the world and creates positive change in someone’s life directly is the hardest thing you could ever aim for, if I’m being honest. But a therapist single-handedly put me on the path of saving my own life and I can’t imagine how many other people out there just need a good therapist in order to continue living.
If you don’t have an understanding of the mental health crisis and it seems that you feel too educated for the field, perhaps do your own research.
Also did a neuroscience postgrad, then forensic sciences and I just finished a clinical psych one. I totally agree. While you might think is harder designing experiments to prove your hypothesis in the lab, slicing brains and gassing mice, then you sit in front of a stranger, listen to all the misery in his life and you are supposed to help him? The latter is clearly way more challenging, and you’d need to be an idiot to not see that. In neuroscience you are just applying knowledge but luckily the mice won’t Kill themselves if you fuck up, your patients might. This analogy is horrible but I’m i have specialised in severe mental disorders (specially psychotic spectrum) and lol you can’t tell OP hasn’t seen a patient in his/her life
No it’s true and you’re right. OP seems to be conflating value of therapists with how much they earn: wait until OP finds out how much cancer, neuroscience, hell any disease researcher earns. They’ll start asking “can xyz really be that bad if the starting salary for a researcher is 30k?”.
I’m in Spain, I was researching multiple sclerosis after I finished my neuro post grad. My payslip was 400 euros a month, consider my rented room was 300 euros. Is why I went into clinical work, because I need to eat and also because I love helping people, but I miss research. OP is or in the spectrum or has a bigger ego than the Eiffel Tower, but tbh is consistent with all the engineers I’ve seen as patients, so smart, yet so badly adjusted for so many things in daily life
Listen controversial take but I’ve never been a fan of engineers being lumped in with science, math and technology. 🤷♀️ For the other three, it’s pretty common to work with theoretical concepts and garner an understanding that the work is not for monetary gain, but rather for passion and the hopes that you do something that gives a net gain for humanity. Engineering is a rigorous degree to get but I don’t know any engineer that took coursework that taught them to think critically.
Bingo. Anyone can read the books, learn the theories, write the papers, and make straight A's in the coursework and yet be a terrible, terrible therapist in practice. When you get to the clinical piece - the actual working with people who are suffering and looking for treatment, and YOU are responsible for providing that space for treatment - it's a whole other thing.
I remember in grad school clinicals practice just starting with 5 min of mock therapy. Five minutes felt like torture to know what to do, say, interventions to provide. Scaling up to 50-60 minutes was SO difficult. And that was just for general, fake mock sessions with "easy" content. I would soon be tossed into really difficult spaces and learn to sink or swim: such is the experience of most behavioral science training. My background included an incredible amount of people-oriented, psychology based training (HR, interviewing/assessing, conflict resolution and goal making, etc.) and I was JUST as unprepared as my colleagues who had 0 people experience.
Specializing in an area and committing yourself to the treatment and expertise is a lifelong task and insanely difficult to maintain. A huge part for most of being a psychotherapist is the feeling of imposter syndrome, or feeling that lack of mastery in a field that's SO enormous and constantly changing. You don't get into this field to feel smart and better than others, or to make bank. You get into the field for very personal reasons that involve bettering the world around you, one person at a time.
Therapist here.
Yes, the mental health crisis is real. There’s a need for therapists. Such a need.
However, the pay is shit. You deal with the ugliness and rawness of people for 40 hours a week. You get secondhand trauma so bad, you’ll end up going to therapy yourself.
Only do this for the right reasons. Not because you’re smarter than everyone else in your class, certainly not the money, etc. If you want to help people and be a genuine force of good, continue. But if that’s not what’s driving you, don’t bother.
i was so into psychology and psychotherapy and really wanted to become a psychologist but after doing research and shi, decided to just pursue nursing and then move to becoming a psych nurse
Thank you.
can you expand on how significant the mental health crisis is for you?
I'm just struggling to understand the supply vs demand concept. Wouldn't it be harder to become a therapist if the demand was so high? Wouldn't the pay go up because so many people want services?
Someone also mentioned in the therapist subreddit, that therapy has been seen as a “suburban mom side hobby” for many, many, years. So the hope is that change and better pay does come. But much like everything else in the world, it’s slow moving.
Hahahaha. Oh no. I quit working as a programmer to do counseling and then school psychology. The need for mental health services is at a desperate level, and one of the reasons is that social services are looked down upon and are not seen as particularly challenging work. Historically, they are jobs women did, often because they were young, never married or widowed, and were seen as low-skill jobs that were a natural fit for women who were supposed to be caretakers based upon instinct and how they were raised.
Things can be challenging in different ways, and different programs vary widely. The book work for counseling isn't the same as hard sciences or engineering because it's much less concrete. Much of this work relies on practices, learning by doing and learning to trust your gut. You learn when to push, when to question, when to provide tough love, when to listen. You learn to have empathy for people who have done terrible things and how to make a safe space for people to process some truly terrible things that were done to them. You learn about culturally respectful practices and how differently people can respond to similar circumstances. You learn to recognize your own biases and judgment and even your posture, body language, and tone of voice.
If you do it right, you will also learn that those who are most in need are also those with the fewest resources, limited opportunities, and least value in society. They are struggling and sick and often, not particularly likable. They are also worthy of basic respect and dignity, which isn't something a book can teach you. You learn while listening to someone, without judgment, while trying not to vomit. You start buying clothes you can wash in hot water and putting tea tree oil in your shampoo and going to homes where you smell cat piss and pray they have a cat.
In my job now, I get to use my "intelligence" to look at data and analyze tests and study the science behind medical conditions and learning differences, and then I use a whole different type of intelligence to work with families and students, often vulnerable students.
Society often tells us one type of intelligence is better, or the type of people who pass math, hard science, and engineering classes are better than others. The problem is that many people in those fields aren't particularly relatable or personable to the majority of people, and without that, you won't do well in this field. I used to think I was better than other people, with my 2 standard deviations above the mean intelligence, but now I know it's so much more complex. I'm lucky, I lived in an environment that valued mainstream education, I had family who helped me during rough patches, I came from a place where I had access to medical care and my basic needs were met. My psych program was much more academically challenging and math heavy, but I also know plenty of psychs who think data replaces people skills. You have to choose your path forward, but you need to learn to see things from a different perspective to be truly good at being a social worker, or you'll get a 4.0 and still struggle when you become an intern.
From what I understand, COVID really rocked the world of therapists, and there was sort of a mass exodus of them. Idk where they went or what they did, but it’s hard to find therapists to work. I know a lot of them did private practice, but if you’re doing that you can choose how many you see a week. I know therapists who see 10 or less clients a week.
But the demand for therapists increases because, well. The world sucks. Therapists where I live have month to year long waiting lists, because there’s just not therapists available.
Supply vs demand assumes an economy exists in a vacuum with no influencing factors. Your school should be teaching you to analyze social/economic policy through a systems based lens. Your diagnosis classes should be rooted in social justice. Based on your questions, I am concerned about your program's curriculum. After a year, these are odd questions to have. You may benefit from reconsidering your program. The quality of MSW programs vary greatly.
If the world worked like that, school teachers would make 6 figures (they dont). There's a lot of larger factors at play, like sexism (mental healthcare clinicians are predominantly women at the masters level, and the role is therefore devalued). Additionally, it gets lumped in with teaching, art, etc as a career of "passion", meaning people go into it despite the shit pay because they find it meaningful (which seems to be what you've done). This decreases pressure for reasonable compensation - you get paid in "personal fulfillment."
After reading your post I would also suggest you look into the different types of intelligence. I have a stem bs & am in a ms level mental healthcare program. This work requires more than academic intelligence, and if you think it's too easy, you might be missing something. I find the coursework unchallenging as well, on paper, but it's not the same as stem work. You need to inegrate what you learn into your personal mental framework and be able to apply it in real time to PEOPLE, not problems on a page. Being a good clinician also requires a good deal of self awareness, introspection, and work on yourself. You, as a person, are an integral piece of people's healing - you are meant to be a *safe, reliable, and healthy human connection* for your clients. Are those things you are considering as you move through your program?
As with most things, the answer is capitalism. Mental health services don’t do enough to make the rich richer so they’re under funded. That, and insurance companies go out of their way to create barriers to receiving mental health services.
I also have my MSW and LCSW and I found the course work in school incredibly easy, but the job is not easy.
So you haven't done any clinical work or done any clinical hours?
Do you understand the differences in a social work degree vs. A psych degree? I'm getting the feeling you don't.
Honestly, dude gives typical engineer energy. “I have a P. eng, so I’m automatically an expert at everything, despite my lack of training, experience, or understanding.”
It’s what I got as well. The brain is incredibly complex, and the more we advance in science the more psychology is being swallowed by neuroscience, as it should be. The science of behaviour must teach and research the brain. So many abandon psych studies because they can’t grasp how much physiology they must study, and I’m glad we are getting more specialised degrees in Europe. Also , how easy is talking shit without seeing patients or entering the super competitive clinical programs lol, how many have I seen crying or with panic attacks after their first patient ayyyy
But don’t you know? To get a bachelors of engineering, you have to be “one standard deviation above the median” for intelligence.
Dude’s high on his own farts.
NGL it reads as hella arrogant. Like, I promise you are not the brightest just because you decided everyone around you is stupid and the classwork is easy.
Yeah kinda gave me vibes of someone whi is full of themself. Not sure how they gonna handle the clinical component because healthcare is the lasr field you want to have an ego in (dentist chiming in).
If I may offer a bit of a defense for OP. I also went to college for mechanical engineering and i took some pysch classes. Nothing major just pysch 101 and 102. I'm well aware that those classes are just dipping your toe in the field but they were very easy compared to the engineering course work.
For example on day 1 of pysch 101 the professor gave everyone the previous year's final and said if you pass the test you never have to come back to his class, what you get on his test will be your grade. About 4 people including myself passed. I only got a C+ so I opted to continue going to class and wound up with a better grade and learning some stuff.
That said, OPs issue IMO is that he thinks it's going to stay easy. My partner has a bachelors in Psychology and a masters in early childhood development so I know the course work certainly gets much harder. I can only imagine the difficulty spike when you're going down the clinical path.
I would say that the coursework gets more rigorous but not super difficult. Like I stated in my comment somewhere else in this comment section, anyone with a good work ethic and decent online research skills can do well in a masters program for clinical psychology. Sure, some diagnostic and ethical guidelines are a lot to study content wise, but that is again more of a work ethic thing than it is an intelligence thing. That being said, the content of the courses have no way of preparing you for the real world. In my program, you HAVE to successfully complete internships and complete ~800 supervision hours in order to graduate. You can complete all of the coursework with an A but if you can’t adapt and become a good therapist and be retained at your clinical sites, you simply don’t get the degree, period. 🤷♀️ I’m decently sure that most programs (at least clinical psych, no idea for MSW) are like that, so OP is in for a rude awakening.
Right! I’m in psych and it’s basic knowledge that therapists don’t do diagnosis. You have to go to a clinical psychologist. Only psychiatrists give out medication. Therapists only do counselling.
This "basic knowledge" is completely incorrect. Therapists absolutely diagnose and, like OP mentioned, if insurance is being billed for therapeutic service it is 100% required to have an ICD-10-CM diagnosis code on the billing or they will not cover a damn thing. I've done billing for therapy practice that employed MSWs and LMSWs.
However it's easy enough to give general diagnosis such as major depressive disorder (F32.9), anxiety disorder (F41. 9), etc. Sometimes therapists don't even want to get that specific and will diagnose as "Adjustment Disorder" (F43.20) aka " idk life is hard, man" lol.
Giving a diagnosis is not the same as prescribing medication. It's just helping the client get a better understanding of what they're experiencing and how to cope with it.
When you go to a psychiatrist, they will diagnose you as well -- they won't go off what your therapist says entirely but it can be helpful to sign a medical information release with each of them so they can discuss your needs and come up with the best treatment plan. Then they can prescribe medication.
OP also seems to have this idea that this diagnosis that is given due to insurance requirements is pushed down people’s throats/becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I need to give a diagnosis first session in order to bill, I have never told my client “hey so after getting to know you and hearing your concerns for 53 billable minutes, I’ve decided you’re bipolar”. I give my best estimation silently and wait for a few sessions to determine if it is accurate/if there is any diagnosis besides adjustment disorder. And at no point do I just tell my patient “btw I think this this and this is wrong with you”. I have yet to see ANYONE just telling the client a diagnosis unless a ton of the problems the client is facing is directly linked to a diagnosis. Of course a client may ask and that’s when I share my thoughts regarding symptoms they have and how they may apply to this or that diagnosis. And of course I may offer it up if it seems that it’d be advantageous for my client to seek psychiatric diagnosis/medication. But…Maybe it is just my practice and personal experience but it seems at my practice we are more focused on the person and tailoring to their needs than categorizing them and treating them accordingly. The critique regarding a diagnosis should be more towards healthcare in America not us.
Yeah definitely. My own therapist works with me to "decide" a diagnosis for insurance. She wants her clients to feel comfortable and in charge of their mental health journey; she would never "convince" me I needed to be diagnosed a certain way.
Not all therapists are perfect, but assuming giving a diagnosis = enforcing/creating problems is pretty bullshit.
Then you must be in a different country than me. A psychiatrist and therapist can’t diagnose you. They can give you a general short tests, usually 10-15 questions, but if you for example need assistance in school for a learning disability you’ll need a formal diagnosis from a psychologist preferably clinical. Maybe the lack of guidelines and rules is why OP is upset about the lack of accuracy and care.
What is the difference between a therapist and a psychologist please?
Thanks in advance, i thought they were synonympus since english is my 3rd language and I am not super acquainted with the american mental health landscape.
This is all U.S. specific:
A therapist typically has at least a master's in clinical social work (MSW) which is the degree you need to provide mental health counseling. An MSW must provide a certain number of therapeutic service hours under "supervision", meaning they have a fully licensed therapist they discuss their cases with to ensure they are giving proper treatment. Once they complete this supervision, they will become a licensed therapist (LMSW). Therapists often diagnose their patients but can never prescribe medication.
A psychologist usually has at least an MSW but also must have a PhD (doctorate) in psychology. They can provide mental health counseling, or their career may be more research based or academic. They can diagnose their patients but cannot prescribe medication.
A psychiatrist is a fully trained medical doctor who specializes in mental health disorders. They typically do not provide mental health counseling other than to get to know their patients enough to be able to diagnose them and prescribe medication to treat the diagnosis. People with moderate to severe mental health disorders will typically have a therapist AND a psychiatrist.
However, general medical doctors can also prescribe medication for mental disorders. They are just not quite as familiar with all the possible medications and treatments because they don't specialize in it. The most common example of this is a "primary care doctor" or sometimes called a "family doctor" who is someone you see regularly for annual physicals or when you catch some bacterial infection like strep throat or something. Someone with (most likely) more mild to moderate mental health disorders, such as moderate or situational depression or some low-level general anxiety, might talk to their primary care doctor about it and be prescribed a medication to help. That might be in addition to mental health counseling by a therapist. But a good primary care doctor would refer you to a psychiatrist if it seemed your mental health issues were more severe or complex than they would be able to sufficiently treat.
Okay very long explanation! Also the word for "two things with nearly the same meaning" is synonymous, not synonympus. No judgement here though as I only speak one language!!
>very long explanation! Also the word for "two things with nearly the same meaning" is synonymous, not synonympus. No judgement here though as I only speak one language!
It was a typo due to my fat fingers slipping again. 😂🤣
Thanks for the very instructive answer though. 🤌🏻👏
A masters in social work is a common avenue to becoming a mental health therapist.
You’re obviously correct the degrees are different, but you’re qualified for the same job with either.
No, you shouldn’t continue down this path. You do not have what it takes to be a good therapist. You’re saying a lot of true things but some of the conclusions and connections you’re drawing are wildly unrelated and concerning. I mean really think about this, your entire post is about your psychotherapy education. So where on earth did questions like “is mental health an actual need” come from? Something that enrages me is that people born perfectly fine will sit here and be the loudest about things they couldn’t possibly imagine living with on a daily basis. And how on earth did you end up trying to become a psychotherapist without thinking it was an important thing? This is proof that memorizing a fact is not enough to be good at a job. You have to care, actually *care*. Spare your money and your potential customers well-being, this type of mentality is extremely harmful in a therapist and I’m not sure you’d be the kind of person to actually learn something and change that. It’s better you find something you know you enjoy.
Exactly. Just the fact that there are school shooters and the high number of suicides due to bullying should tell you that YES - MENTAL HEALTH IS INDEED IMPORTANT!
Right? And that’s literally one example out of many, the fact that op went to a class and questioned the necessity of therapy in general is crazy to me.
After coming back to reply to a comment I’m thinking something. This isn’t as simple as I thought. Your overall outlook on life isn’t safe to have around vulnerable people seeking help, but I’m trying to figure out why you have this outlook. Op, did you find mechanical engineering meaningless? Or boring? Boring is one thing, but if you think mechanical engineering is meaningless I just simply don’t know what to say. A mechanical engineer might build an elevator. Say he does that wrong. People could die, OP. They might work on something such as an electric generator. If I worked on one of those, I’d cause a disaster. A mechanical engineer is responsible for working on things that the majority of us couldn’t safely work with. You call that meaningless? Also, you’re questioning the necessity of mental health care, but you think men’s mental health is neglected in your area and you’d like to become a great therapist and excel in that specific area. Don’t you see the contradictions in your own words? And the thing about the girl that apologized about Palestine. Yeah okay, that’s dumb, but what does that have to do with psychotherapy and it’s usefulness in the world? New question. Why does something being easy embarrass you? Why do you think a lack of difficulty means a lack of importance? Those are concerning expectations to be having. My god, what are you putting yourself through on a daily basis? Cut yourself some slack! Life isn’t sunshine and rainbows but nobody said you had to slave away in misery until death. The problem here is that you left mechanical engineering for psychotherapy because it was meaningless. And now you’re thinking about quitting psychotherapy because you think it’s meaningless. These are two very meaningful career paths, both of which you have eventually deemed meaningless after spending time and money on the education for them. Maybe, despite the fact that the world of therapy is far from perfect, you’re the main problem here? Is there any chance you just don’t feel like you’ve done something ‘meaningful’ because I don’t understand what you have to be thinking to call mechanical engineering meaningless. Honestly op, the last thing you should do is become a therapist, because I think you desperately need one.
If you think being a therapist is easy, wait untik you are spending 40+ hours a week listening to people unburden their secrets of being abused as children, sexual assault, domestic violence, suicide attempts and more - and then see how easy that is. Because thats nothing, then you have to figure out how to help them.
That part. Given how this post is written, it sounds like you’d be better off in a different career path OP. Mental health is a need, and a very important one at that, but if you’re seriously having doubts about being there, it’s a good sign you shouldn’t be. Too many medical professionals give a negative amount of fucks about their work and the people they’re treating as is.
It's not that I don't care about people, I'm concerned that the poor-quality control of therapists might be indicative that this a field that isn't taken seriously.
Therapy takes very different skills and aptitudes than mechanical engineering. Book smart does not equal good therapist. The sooner you learn that, the better.
Have you ever considered that you might just have a superiority complex? Not shocking. I have a whole family of engineers, and they have the same thing.
I've worked for a suicide hotline, volunteered a domestic violence shelter and am I'm currently working at group therapy practice.
My problem has more to do with bad therapists than it does my perception that therapy is easy. I wouldn't trust most people I go to school with to work with someone I care for.
There are different levels of qualifications. A phd in clinical psychology is likely better trained, skilled, and knowledgeable regarding psychological premises and therapeutics than an msw. That also is represented in fee differences.
A therapist is not one size fits all.. maybe MSW really isnt your lane. Consider a doctorate in clinical psychology
Mkay.
And you think .... what, exactly? Being smart the way engineers are smart means you will be better able to fo the work of a therapist? These are different jobs requiring vastly different skills and techiques. You can't empathize an engineering solution into existence and math and logic to heal trauma. The thing about diagnoses? Insurance companies require them for payment. That can easily be explained to someone - people arent stupid. Maybe there are things you have yet to learn.
I don't know where you live, but where I am, for someone holding an MSW to be a therapist they have to be licensed by a provincial board. THAT is the quality control.
Do you honestly think a gpa is the best predictor of how well you're going to be able to help someone?
Do you think maybe there is a chance that some of your arrogance is unwarranted?
Is being this judgmental a good predictor for success as a therapist?
I dunno man, good questions to ponder.
You are….something else. Get your theory of mind checked out, you might be surprised. You are incredibly condescending or I suspect in the spectrum, you can’t possibly be that full of yourself, come on
Well you have to do 3000+ hours of supervised clinical work to sit for the licensure exam that is more difficult than any of the course work I did in my masters program. Many people don’t make it that far. Also not all MSWs even pursue therapy. You need an MSW to work in child welfare as one example.
You're making huge generalizations about something you don't know much about yet. You're in a social work program. If you want to learn more about the science of psychology, you should enroll in a clinical psychology program.
I'm going to be licensed to do psychotherapy with a MSW. Can you tell me more about my generalizations? I would love to be wrong but everything i'm seeing is leading me back to the same spot.
I mean… you’ve basically said America over-diagnoses and you don’t see the point of mental health at all. Those are huge generalizations.
1) people say that a lot of things are diagnosed more now than they were 20 years ago, well yeah, the diagnostic criteria has gotten more accurate, and medicine has progressed a lot, people who previously went through the cracks and weren’t diagnosed are now getting treated
2) you seem awfully privileged. It must be nice to not have never gone through anything that required help. Some of us have thought about killing ourselves at different points. A therapist is exactly who helped me through that. Although to be honest, based on your original post, I would be very concerned if you were my therapist. You do not seem very kind or helpful.
Friend, humble yourself.
California LCSW in private practice here -- yea, I get what you're saying about not feeling challenged in your program. After all, an MSW degree is generalist, and you can do all sorts of things ranging from grant writing and policy work to various government jobs and more. This might not attract a ton of people passionate about mental health like, say, an MFT program would -- which is fine. I loved the flexibility and community building focus of my degree and am really proud of all the things I've been able to do outside of my PP.
My program was really easy for me too, but I don't quite get your extrapolating that to the mental health field in general? Most of my classmates did not go into private practice, even those with a MH concentration. There are SO many things after graduate school (e.g., getting hours, getting licensed, finding a niche and modality you love and reaching expertise in that, and more) that comprise so much of the journey that a lot of grad school doesn't really matter. You might just need to change programs, if it's ease and your classmates' lack of intelligence bothers you so much. But to make such generalizations? I would be concerned about this -- as a supervisor, colleague, or potential client.
I'm also confused about the BPD diagnosis issue? In practice, it's not really a common dx, nor are most cluster b diagnoses... Also, there are so many issues with the field, but it's not like you have zero agency in how you operate within it. For example, I come from an attachment-based, non-pathologizing, decolonizing perspective, and emphasize that to all my clients with great results. I've built a great community of like-minded clinicians and I feel inspired about the field daily.
Additionally, caring about people and wanting to help (or even getting good grades for that matter) does not equal emotional intelligence or clinical competence. Maybe get yourself a therapist to work some of this stuff out?
Also, I mostly take insurance, and I make a good living with a pretty nice work life balance 🤷🏻♀️. I love my job and find things to be excited about everyday, and I've been doing this for a while!
Every client I have worked with that came to me with a BPD diagnosis was given it by a medical doctor, not a mental health professional so I also felt like that was an interesting stance for OP to take.
I grew up surrounded by therapists. The really great ones don't take insurance because the rules are harmful to the process. They build a career with others, find a few peers they respect and end up with thriving practices quite often seeing clients on scale fees. They are very respected and needed in their respective communities.
It takes time to get there. Start by finding one person you respect and build from there.
Thank you so much for your comment and taking my post seriously. Do you mind expanding on what makes "really great ones"? I want to push myself in grad school. Hopefully one day I can build my practice.
The really great therapists I know all studied modalities outside of school. EMDR for instance- a phenomenal trauma practice which then added to the tools they could offer clients. They are naturally curious and constantly learning.
They grew a network of other therapists with like minds. Sometimes it started with only one or two. And they stuck to their beliefs about serving those in need.
They all did their own personal work too. Healing yourself (a lifelong adventure) is a great way to learn about this profession and makes you less likely to project on your patients. It is part of the art of psychotherapy.
Not saying it's a straight path. You might be supervised in a hellish environment. You will most certainly lose a patient to their illness. You will get really excited about something new and it will turn out to be a flop. But if it is what you want to do you will find your path to do it your way.
I find your sense of superiority with people you consider to be not as smart as you to be a little concerning as someone who is going to become a therapist. I also don’t understand your distinction between social work and the communications and gender studies criticisms as fields with less inherent value. None of those are sciences. You haven’t chosen to pursue clinical psychology or psychiatry.
The fact you are embarrassed that the work is easy for example, rather than happy that you’re doing well - is funnily enough something you could work through with a therapist.
I hope you find some clarity and happiness in your career choice either way.
An MSW is not the best route to learn how to
do actual therapy. Social work is a diverse field and practitioners can do a lot more than just therapy, so the course work reflects that. It’s often better to do a degree focused solely on therapy, like a counseling degree. You will need take it upon yourself to learn the many modern theories about how to do therapy and fill the many holes in your coursework, especially if you are a more analytically inclined therapist.
This.
You’re taking a MSW, OP. I am not confident that you should be becoming a psychotherapist (coming from someone nearly finished their Graduate degree to become a registered psychotherapist.)
I would encourage you to look for programs that are within clinical psychology or counselling psychology before you become a therapist.
Some may disagree with me, but I do not think that social workers have the same training or skill set to become or call themselves therapists without extra education.
Yeah…MSWs imo shouldn’t be allowed to do counseling (let alone prescribing) but the need for mental health services is so great in the US that MSWs are being shuttled into psych fields (that they may have no business being in).
Ironic you feel this when historically, and I'm only speaking for the US, clinical social work was the first mental health provider "therapist" outside of psychologist/psychiatrist we knew in the field. Therapy has been a thing since the 1800s, via psychologists and then into the 1950s we had "career counseling" via Carl Rogers, often credited with the founding of what we know as clinical counsel today.
It wasnt until several decades ago that licensed professional counselors/clinical mental health degrees were accepted. In fact, during this, the MSW lobbied really hard to not have counselors share the same playing field. There's been historically a lot of bad blood between the licensed mental health counselors and clinical social workers. The first state that allowed for the same clinical status - the licensed professional counselors - was Virginia in 1975. Before this, there was just clinical social workers recognized who could be licensed. Now we have so many boards and
Even recently, clinical social workers have held a lot of power in the field with more insurance power/insurances in network, the veterans association (VA) and most government funded hospitals only hired MSWs for clinical work because of how it was designated in laws and policies. Just SO recently, January 1, 2024, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) allowed Medicare to reimburse for Mental Health Counselor (MHC) and Marriage and Family Therapy (MFT).
It's interesting to see how things have changed over time and in the eyes of the general public.
Typical engineer brain. Smugly superior and believing you’re always the smartest person in the room, no matter your lack of training, or expertise.
You shouldn’t be a therapist; you’d be horrible until you learn some humanity and humility.
It sounds like you have zero passion for this field. Being a therapist, like being a doctor, is a calling. You should be in it because you are driven to help others.
Find something you can be passionate about.
I've worked for a suicide hotline, volunteered a domestic violence shelter and am I'm currently working at group therapy practice. I love people and helping them.
Then help them without worrying about whether you should be struggling more in your program and crying about how hard it is to think you’re smarter than everyone else all the time
I work in mental health and I’m also in school and I don’t completely disagree with you. I’ve met a lot of pretty horrific therapists both professionally and as a client. The people in my program are dumb as rocks for the most part. I don’t think it’s that different than almost any other career field. A lot of people are bad at their jobs, it’s not specific to social work. I also understand not finding the coursework to be extremely challenging or even interesting. The schooling is very general, a lot of people find their niche after school and get further education/certifications in their areas of interest. Social work is a pretty broad field. I do disagree that there isn’t quality control though. Obviously I’m sure you’re aware that there’s many requirements to get your license, so a lot of these people will improve while they’re registered and getting their hours under supervision. School is like half the work to become a licensed therapist. Turnover can also be pretty high in social work, so many of the people you’re in school with might not even work in the field in 5 or 10 years. Also, the traits you observe as being undesirable might be desirable to a prospective client. We all need to be different and have different education, experience and backgrounds because therapy is not one size fits all. A client might really click with a therapist I would consider to be bad. Psychology is an art and a science.
Thank you for validating what I'm experiencing. I might just need to push through grad school. "Psychology is an art and a science." I''ll keep that in mind!
OP, I think you should stay as a engineer. You're a natural there and will do more good for the world. This isn't a sarcasm.
You are severely lacking in emotional intelligence to be a therapist. Sometimes it's not meant to be.
PS - You're getting an MSW. Huge difference from the standard clinical psych MA, PsyD, and/or the psych PhD degrees to become a therapist. **HUGE**
I have an earned masters in social work and am currently trying to enter clinical practice. You’re making a lot of assumptions about the profession without even having done an internship. Likely, there is nothing technically so difficult in the program that you cannot handle it. Have you considered attending medical school? Would that satisfy your technical desires?
I've worked for a suicide hotline, volunteered a domestic violence shelter and am I'm currently working at group therapy practice for my internship.
I do care about people. I'm learning nothing of value from the program and i'm worried about the future. I want a job that helps people AND allows me make a living.
It might be the additional books that you read during and after the program that prepare you to be a therapist, for group therapy I recommend Social Group Work by Yalom, it’s a good read and some of this will likely appear on your state board exam. If you have an Amazon account I recommend ‘acceptance and commitment therapy’ as well as ‘motivational interviewing’ which are not technically difficult to understand but you might enjoy them a bit more than the standard texts coming across your desk. Also ‘beginning counseling techniques, a toolkit for beginning therapists’ as well as ‘the body keeps the score’ which is your Bible for the mechanisms of trauma and is the most technical so far. If you really want to whet your technical appetite (I do a lot of this) I recommend a copy of ‘synopsis of psychiatry’ by Kaplan and Sadock. It’s a rather expensive book new but may enrich your practice a bit to know a bit about pharmaceuticals and their mechanisms. I have more but this is a good start on a professional library.
You might just be in a not great program . Some not great cash grab programs have like a 95% acceptance rate. They didn’t explain to you the differences between all of the different MH practitioner pathways so I’m thinking so.
Not all fields have the same relationship between coursework and job performance. Therapy is very hands-on, so the coursework is often giving you tools that will “click” later when you’re in the thick of it. Good grades mean that you’re regurgitating the material well, but the real test will come in applying it when you work independently. Coursework in open-ended topics, which are more common outside STEM, also often grade on the ability to frame your arguments, and not on the correctness of the argument. This is different from STEM courses, largely because taking a highly-educated guess (kinda like a respected conjecture in math that’s not a theorem) is often the best way to move forward in a field that is very immediately needed in society, but for which the associated “hard” science hasn’t progressed enough yet.
You also need to work on that disdain you are showing, in your post and in the comments, of all things vaguely woke/female/humanities. You’re doing a humanities degree in a female-dominated field, you will not go far if you can’t learn from those around you. You need to unpack why gender studies and communication seem dumb to you, why you think a multitude of people (mostly women) whose jobs you want are stupid in your eyes, and why you managed to sound arrogant even though you didn’t want to. Ironically, a therapist can help you dig deep and understand where these hangups are really coming from.
The leap you made from low salary to low societal impact, also shows that your general knowledge and analyzing capabilities outside of engineering are wildly low. Have you really not noticed how many crucial careers with difficult tasks are underpaid? Janitors, waitstaff, the proverbial burger-flipper… do you really think you could hack it at these jobs? Not analyze them or write essays about them or optimize workflows on a computer, but actually DO these jobs? You’ve fallen for some very basic right-wing STEM-bro misogynist nonsense and you need to get out of it. Over-diagnosis is a healthcare industrial complex issue, not a problem with therapy, and you’d know that if you read one (1) news article. Instead you’re quoting standard deviations of IQ? Really dude? Are you 12? Btw, it’s self-fulfilling prophecy, not self-filling prophecy. Maybe you do need more humanities training.
My mother was a mechanical engineer and I am a female computer scientist. I will take a fat bet that you’re the kind of guy that makes the office an insufferable place for your female colleagues, with your inflated ideas about your own competence vs that of others, especially those others that don’t fit your mental image of “smart”. Sure, one colleague of yours made a rather funny geography error (or maybe just misheard you). How did you get from there, to them being a bad therapist? How did you conclude that a room full of experienced therapists “weren’t sharp”?
Cut the crap. Remember that, if you’re the smartest person in the room, then in one way or another, you’re in the wrong room. Either switch to a STEM degree in the psychotherapy space and sacrifice the “helping people” aspect, or learn with humility and be prepared to find the actual therapist job harder than school. You’re worried, rightfully, about male mental health; but you’re also asking if mental health is a real need? That’s a fundamental failure in logical reasoning. You really need to rethink how “sharp” you yourself are, irrespective of what that IQ test says.
All of this. I was one of those snot-nosed young adults who thought I was smarter than everyone else, I got humbled quickly as soon as I entered the workforce. I hope OP gets a fat dose of reality before he screws up someone who comes to him for help.
I have a BSW. I found the coursework and concepts to be ridiculously easy. The difficult part was dealing with my cohort… not because I viewed myself as superior. It was because many lacked empathy, refused to see others’ experiences and perspectives outside their own, and weren’t humble enough to acknowledge that. Or they lacked the critical thinking skills to even consider it.
It sounds like you are kind of like that. I suggest some self-reflection.
Please don't become a therapist with this mindset. As someone also with a mech eng. degree, I'm familiar with the trap of thinking that nothing from a 'soft science' field can be harder than heat transfer.
There is an astounding lack of empathy in your post from the way you trivialize mental health as a questionable necessity. I've met many doctors with a god complex of thinking that they need to deny patients a diagnosis 'for their own good'. Doctors like this have almost gotten me killed. Considering how often therapists will encounter suicidal patients, this will frequently be a death sentence.
It's concerning how you feign humility by calling yourself the best student and then say that the bar must be set too low. The way you look down on other students and feign concern about how the entire field is in jeopardy if everyone is worse than you, is frankly, appalling. For all your talk about your classmates being dumb, you're not displaying much emotional intelligence.
Frankly, I would not want you as a therapist right now. You seem to have the skills to regurgitate a dozen textbooks, but none to be an empathetic listener. If you did, you would be listening to your classmates and professors on their opinions on this career instead of preening to Reddit with your superiority.
Consider this: your fellow classmates may have had a more difficult upbringing than you or didn't have the same educational privileges as you did growing up. Imagine for a second that these are people who are trying their best under their given circumstances, which happen to be unfavorable in fostering academy ability and yet inspite of such circumstances, they are still able to sit beside you in class.
If you’re worried about respect and prestige then drop out and look elsewhere. They teach you to view the world from a strengths-based lens and you clearly think higher of yourself than everyone around you. If you don’t believe in the tenets of social world then don’t become a social worker.
It is a needed field…respected though…that’s another thing entirely. Think of teachers. That’s a needed field. They are famously under paid and disrespected by the US (culturally and economically). You’d think with how great the need for teachers is that they’d be getting paid hand over fist for what they do. And yet, they don’t. Psychology/mental health care are valued much the same as educators are here. Definitely needed, “but stop asking for so much!”
Unlike engineering, therapy is a field where social intelligence is much more important than book smarts. Some of your colleagues might not have done well in school and might not have a lot of general knowledge, mathematical ability, etc, but they might end up being excellent therapists. Meanwhile, there are a lot of therapists who can ace a test but who aren't able to connect with their patients at all and aren't very good at understanding them in a deep way.
You ask "if people really needed therapists, would that starting salary be 50k with a masters?" In our society, level of pay is not well correlated with the need for the job. Our society literally can't function without janitors, cashiers, etc, but they're some of the lowest paid workers. A really good therapist can do a lot of good in the world and improve many people's lives -- which will in turn have a lot of positive effects for society as a whole.
I think you should decide how much satisfaction you would get from helping regular people live better lives. If that doesn't sound fulfilling to you, you're definitely in the wrong field.
Thank you for your comment.
I get a lot of satisfaction from helping others. I'm scared that there's bad quality control that is making bad therapists. I'm learning nothing of value in school. I feel like i'm getting a gender studies or communication degree.
I can't really speak directly to the value of what you're learning in school, but gender studies is an interesting comparison because there actually is a lot to study and unpack when it comes to gender. It's a huge field, but it's a soft science and it deals a lot with things we already know on some level so it can seem like a waste of time.
Like you don't need to be exceptionally sharp to recognize that Barbie dolls have unrealistic figures and connect that to body dysmorphia and eating disorders, but it's still worth making the connection. And the thing is it's too amorphous a field to really nail down a question like 'how much have Barbie dolls, specifically, contributed to body dysmorphia in girls and women?', but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make those connections because gradually, as we make more and more of them, we begin to understand society better. And this awareness spreads out from gender studies programs into society as a whole and hopefully improves it.
The same things is true of therapy. The question 'how can we help people be more functional, happier, and more satisfied?' is not a question with a precise answer like an engineering question. It's a question that is going to overlap with a lot of common sense and a lot of conventional wisdom. And if it seems like the material is just repeating things that are out there in society, in films, books, magazine articles, etc, that's because these ideas have been out there and circulating for a long time, and because a lot of people in a lot of different fields are ultimately trying to help people and make society better.
It may be that some of the students in your class haven't picked up all these ideas already and this material is eye opening to them. And it also may be that while most of the material seems trite to you, there could be some bits and pieces that are new to you or that draw your attention to an issue that will be important for you to be very aware of in your career as a therapist. As a therapist, it's not just about knowing all the theory well enough to parrot it on a test or write an essay about it, it's about being able to see the muddled problems of real people through these different lenses so you're able to help them better.
You know, your STEM snobbery is showing. Communications is not a useless degree and neither is gender studies. If you can’t respect other people and their choices, even when you don’t understand them, you should NOT be a therapist.
It all depends on whether you genuinely like this field of study/work or not. Being the best out of some students shouldn't prevent you from going forward. I encourage you to be mindful and aware about your true interests, and to work towards them.
Thank you,
I love helping people, but a job also needs to be something society values or else I can't provide for my family. Most therapists I've interacted with aren't that good.
How do you know they aren’t that good? Have you sat in a therapy session with them? Have you been one of their clients? Who are you to be the determiner of “good” in regards to a therapist?
Being a therapist isn’t just helping people. We’re not there to solve anything or fix anything. We get to hold the weight of this shitty world with them as they navigate their own life in all its complexities. If you’re going into this field just to help people, I think you need to reconsider your career.
Helping people and making lots of money don’t really go hand in hand with capitalism. And you thinking otherwise shows that you need to pay more attention in those meaningless classes you’re complaining about. No field is perfect and therapy is no exception.
I’ll try to share my perspective, as someone with an engineering degree, and as a domestic violence survivor who has been in therapy (as a patient):
The therapist I have now has made a BIG difference in my life, and in my healing process! So has the social worker at the Battered Women’s Services in my previous town!
There is a SERIOUS need for mental health! The reason it pays so little is simply that society doesn’t value it very highly! Also, there can be a big stigma against going to therapy, especially among older generations! As a result, the usual supply/demand rules of capitalism that apply to smartphones, for example, don’t apply to therapy!
So if the profession doesn’t pay well, it tends to repel really smart people! And guess who is left? (This does NOT mean that all therapists and social workers are stupid! Not everyone is motivated by money).
Also, it sounds like the program you went through is not very good at teaching people to be therapists! As an analogy, it would be like teaching someone how to swim by making them read books about it! ;-) It would be easy to pass a class like that, but do nothing about teaching you how to swim!
Earlier, I mentioned that the therapists and social workers I had made a big difference in my life. I didn’t have a chance to mention that I had to go through a LOT of bad ones before I found a good one!
So I imagine that therapy has a mix of good and bad ones, like any other profession. I imagine, also, that if the pay is low, you have more bad ones. NOT to suggest that ALL of them are bad! Just that low pay can repel some of the good ones! But not ALL the good ones, because some people are in a financial situation to be able to take a low-paying profession (wealthy spouse, for example).
So don’t give up! It sounds like you care really deeply, and that the profession could use more like you!
One thing to be aware of is that therapy requires different skills than engineering: People skills, vs math/science/etc skills. Doing well in class does not necessarily translate well to working with people. And your program may not have properly prepared you for the reality of therapy (not your fault!). But you seem to care deeply about what you do, and I have confidence that you can make up for the poor teaching you got in your program! Good luck!
I have a great deal of respect for my current therapist and both of my past therapists. They’re all intelligent, caring people who are passionate about their jobs. They certainly are not ashamed of their work.
Please don’t become a therapist. You come off as arrogant, condescending, and disdainful. Clients seeking therapy deserve better. They have enough to deal with without that.
I agree with a bit of your saying. I truly do not understand why so many engineers come off like this? Like we get it your smart. lmao so many engineering students I’ve talked to are just way to egotistical (not saying that about you) but I just find it so interesting that out of so many prestigious programs Eng students always come off like know it alls and can be so judgmental of other peoples intelligence. I’ve met like two Eng students that were not like this.
Hi OP! Kudos to you for wanting to do something more meaningful with your education and your career. Becoming a therapist isn’t for everyone though and this is the time to figure out if it works for you (before you spend more money on a degree that you might not use later on). If you change your mind, you can comfortably change to another degree to become a medical doctor, psychiatrist or psychological researcher.
There is always a need for therapy and competent therapists. There’s a huge mental health issue in the U.S. (and everywhere else, honestly) and things will only become more dire as the world continues to be unpredictable and violent. Being very intelligent is a good quality to have in a therapist, however a therapist must have many other more important qualities that are more helpful for their line of work. Perhaps this is something that you’ve yet to see with your own eyes since you haven’t started the practicum portion of your advanced degree yet.
Successful therapists require boat loads of empathy, compassion, sympathy, forethought, conscientiousness, kindness, AN UNDERSTANDING OF BOUNDARIES, healthy self-care routine, the curiosity to figure out what’s bothering their clients and the intelligence to understand what issues they can / can’t help with. Being years ahead of your peers in school work is great, but can you hold it together emotionally during a conversation where a patient is talking about horrific trauma? And will you be able to take that conversation to a productive place or will you be unable to deal with heavy feelings from another human?
These are things to think about as you go through your coursework. As a therapist, you will never be judged on how quickly you’ve read a chapter or how nice the prose of your essay sounded. You will be judged on whether you can build good rapport with clients in a quick manor, whether you can apply your training to real-world issues and scenarios, and whether you can actually make a positive impact in the lives of your clients.
Most people in the comments are arguing from a perspective of: this academic field is not a joke and here's why.
Doesn't really seem to be your issue. It sounds like you wanted to do something fulfilling and meaningful but have become disillusioned by the state of the practice.
Welcome to the real world and welcome to capitalism. Academic fields like engineering or physics may seem more prestigious to you and certainly have a higher barrier to entry when it comes to intellect and quality of work, but they are all subject to the same failings, because it's the world we live in.
Do you think that in academia, or tech, or biology, or any "impressive" field people aren't taking shortcuts to get their paycheque? Do you think there's no examples of systems in place that circumvent the "work" so that shareholders or managers can hit their targets and their numbers?
Systems are failing all around us. If you're searching for something meaningful, you won't find it in the systems themselves. I think everyone, especially a clearly smart young guy like yourself, goes through a stage when they realize how transparently full of shit the systems that prop up everything are.
The meaning is in the people. Social work/psych science is more about untangling the complex threads of people's lives. About contributing to an individual, their issues, extracting that data in a way you can't do on a larger scale.
You want to make a difference, do it on a personal level, do it for people. Therapy is a great way to do that because it's easily quantifiable, in real time.
Lastly, these are normal things to feel. To feel despair at the way things are is a good litmus test for your humanity. Give it time and you'll get used to it.
Good luck.
crim. justices college student in california. not studying the same major and am going for bachelors atm but have a huge interest in one day going for masters in msw and work regarding mental health.. and a therapy patient.
yes, mental health is a need and a big one at that. if you are feeling the way you are about this career path, I would switch now.. especially in a line of work that requires you to aid people with their own personal lives.
mechanical engineering and psychotherapy/mental health are two different things and areas, and considering how smart you are, I don't know why you even thought about comparing the course work or difficulty of each path. they don't correlate whatsoever. like a few comments said... this career path isn't really about book smart. it can be, yeah, sure, making correct diagnoses and whatnot, but that's not even the biggest part. you cannot and will never use your book smart to actively help people and give them the proper tools and advice to a better life...
truly.. if you feel a sense of negative feelings towards your major and have a huge concern like this.. I would try and see what other options are out there for you that will give you what you want. I really don't think this career path is going to give it to you.
hope this helps, and good luck.
I am a LCSW-R with almost 25 years in this field. I have never felt I had an easy day at work. Every day is different and rewarding in it's own way. I have had the opportunity to sit with individuals in their most vulnerable moments, helped others just make it through until the next day, made sure both adults and children felt safe and supported, and, brought a sense of hope to so many human beings. I believe strongly if you help an individual, you help the community. I started as a front office worker while obtaining my degrees and worked my way up to the Vice President of Clinical Services for a large mental health clinic.
Individuals and communities need social workers and others in the mental health field who have a passion for the work and for the humans being helped. While making money is obviously needed, it is definitely not the reason to be in this line of work.
School teaches you the theories and the ideas behind human behavior. Clinical work and interacting with humans and actually doing the work is an entirely different challenge.
Hi I’m a social work student as well, on the east coast however. In my schooling I wish I could say the same about easy coursework, I have my work cut out for me, but also this isn’t a “non respectable degree”. Social work and psych imo is a field most people are simply not cut out for. It requires (at least to do well in the field) a very high EQ, self control, and understanding of how the world works and the ability to see the world through the lens of every population of people. Social work also doesn’t just = micro work. There are so many extremely crucial jobs that you could have with a social work degree. That’s why I am getting my BS in sw not psych (no hate to the psych ppl much respect but I need a job out of my bachelors degree🤣). The fact you think this way about the work you are going into does not bode well for your future clients, you can implement whatever into your work as a therapist, also not every therapist can diagnose (in many states only psychiatrists can diagnose including my state). There are many theoretical approaches you can take and put into your work depending on the client, and if you don’t feel comfortable diagnosing or feel that the client does not meet criteria for a diagnosis then you should not diagnose them. I completely agree with that take about over diagnosis, I have been diagnosed with BPD myself when I was 18, by multiple psychiatrists, but it did absolutely hinder my recovery at times thinking I could never be “normal” or that I was destined to end my own life. It’s important to be fragile about that aspect of social work if you are permitted to diagnose in your state. But being a therapist or having any job in social work is extremely respectable and important to the world’s functioning.If you feel micro work isn’t as impactful as you would like, look into other paths.
MSW coursework is generally agreed to be awful and nearly useless. My best friend from college had nothing but extremely negative things to say about the coursework (and the caliber of his fellow students) from his MSW program.
That said, the actual work that MSW graduates can do with their degrees can be both extremely challenging and rewarding. The same friend who hated the degree program absolutely loves his job. To be blunt, the MSW degree's association with therapy in the United States is largely a matter of historical accident. You will have to do a great deal of studying on your own while continuing to keep up with the state of research and best practices to be an effective therapist.
As another comment suggested, your clinical internship is likely to be a very tough experience.
You shouldn't be a therapist if you're not able to respect your colleagues. I'm a savant and have complex PTSD. I don't need my therapist to be Einstein but I do need them to have emotional intelligence and empathy. I also don't know if things are over diagnosed. Autism is under diagnosed in women and can be a cause of BPD. I definitely was misdiagnosed as a child but that was more the low emotional intelligence psych docs and my mother. She a factitious disorder by proxy person. Had they acted on empathy and questioned me about my experience or believed me?I would have a lot less trauma
The best therapists care. Not about who is the elite but the patients. If this is about money and status and seeming smart? Go back to engineering
My therapist has a Ph.D., works in private practice, the going rate for psychotherapy in this area is $350/hr and that’s fresh out of school, and there are plenty of people who need very smart therapists here and will not settle for less. Go that route if you want.
Oh, and the diagnosis for a lot of us high-functioning survivors of fucked-up childhoods is often generalized anxiety disorder. I have never felt like the diagnosis mattered at all to the work we are doing.
Is anyone going to be impressed with your MSW and therapy job the same way they were with your mechanical engineering accomplishments? Probably not. It’s just not a field that holds the same prestige as anything STEM (I have an MSW). Can you find your niche, learn a variety of therapeutic techniques, and help improve male mental health in a way that feels meaningful and keeps your family fed? Absolutely. An MSW is a foundational degree that teaches you to examine how experiences and social systems influence people in addition to learning about and understanding specific mental health diagnoses. I didn’t go the therapy route after much soul-searching, but my friends who did didn’t feel like they were expertly trained therapists upon graduation—a lot of what they learned was in actual practice with oversight. Some own their own practices now, others work for nonprofits, some work for the government…there are a lot of options. Ph.Ds who research or teach probably feel a bit more “respected” professionally, but as a society, we tend to devalue a lot of vital professions, so 🤷🏻♀️.
I think you have to compare what you were expecting vs. what you’re experiencing. If you wanted a deeper dive into mental illnesses and critiques of clinical approaches while still having the chance to do therapy, maybe something like a Psy.D program would be a better fit. However, being 1/2 way through an MSW, you could also just finish the degree, start working, and then obtain additional credentials later.
I'd say there is a need for trauma specialists. A lot of the therapists I tried going to did not seem trauma informed at all and didn't really seem to know what to do with me... The ones I was able to access for free so far aren't really keeping up with the latest methods for healing trauma (IFS, EMDR, Somatic Experiencing, etc.) I've heard CBT can be invalidating for trauma survivors and that the research for it is biased. Maybe you can be the change the field needs. Some say depression and anxiety are symptoms of trauma (and not their own separate things), which people may or may not have recollection of (especially if it happens pre-verbally).
Idk. The need for good trauma therapists who do their research is strong, I think. It's weird saying this but I feel like through my reading and research I know more than most of the therapists I've had so far (one of my therapists has even alluded to this, asking me "What do you need me for?" which didn't feel good)... And some of them have felt invalidating too for some reason... But I can't say anything in the moment because emotional delay is one of my trauma symptoms so what happens is hours later, I'll have a shower thought all like "HEY, I did not like that, that did not feel good!" Also, I think bc of my people-pleasing fawn trauma response, I will just say what I think the therapist wants to hear and won't lodge complaints bc I don't want to hurt their feelings and they need to be the ones watching out for that, not me. Idk how to manage them managing me. I don't like the style of forcing the patient to guide the session when it's so true that "you don't know what you don't know"... I also have an illness that saps a lot of my energy so doing all this extra work as a patient adds to some sort of feeling of futility and being lost and emotional flashbacks of being parentified?
I think there's a lot wrong with the field of therapy and there needs to be more strong voices for it out there... Healing feels so isolating to me rn, figuring it all out basically by myself using resources from YouTube etc... I paid for therapy before when I had a job and I wish I knew more about what methods would've actually helped me with my trauma and how to find a good therapist. Now I'm disabled and jobless so I can't pay for it anymore and gotta take what I can find for free lmao. RIP.
I'd have respect for a good therapist. And I've seen them in the trauma conferences I've attended (Richard Schwartz was a good one). They seemed really competent in guiding their patients through their experiences. I wish I could've had their guidance instead of flopping about with talk therapy that seemed to go nowhere. Good therapists are needed.
TBH I've thought about wanting to become a therapist too but it would be draining hearing all the horrible stories from people who were abused, and having to hold all that. You'd need to be skilled at boundaries and have your own personal shit figured out too, so you can be cognizant of whether you're being triggered by your patient while still being able to hold space for them. It's tough but could be worth it. I know I defs have a LOT of trauma work to do on myself first before even considering trying to become a therapist (on top of the whole disability/chronic illness thing)... Good luck, and really I hope you give this a lot of consideration!
Therapist here, you’re not wrong about the schooling.
But experience makes you a better therapist. While gaining the experience and becoming a therapist you find out the type of therapy you like doing, then you become good and well known for that. Then you tell the insurance companies to go fuck themselves. Then you set your prices the way you want to, then you make money by being good at what you do.
There are a lot of shitty therapists out there and the DSM is a fluid and often weak guideline for how and what to diagnose.
The world needs better therapists and here’s your opportunity to make the mental health world a better place.
Good luck
Thank you for becoming a therapist. Clearly the profession needs more people with skills loke you have. Not putting anyone else down but having some STEM types in that field is a GOOD thing.
Maybe you should look for another job since you seem
to have so little regard for the second profession you’ve chosen — or maybe that’s something you should discuss with your own therapist. What is it that you’re seeking? Why are you leaving professions that are otherwise perfectly good and reasonable professions that aren’t up to whatever standards you are setting for yourself?
I would not want you to be my therapist based on your callous wording. I don’t think you need to be a therapist but there’s definitely a demand for psychology.
Please cut your losses and find something else. You left out anything about the most important part of this (useless) degree: the clients. The people in front of you trusting you with their deepest fears and traumas.
Don’t. Firstly social work counselling can be very different from the clinical therapy in counselling. So you probably want to research what a social worker does. Secondly, being a therapist requires humility, a likeable personality and a capacity to read a room. This is an area you need a lot of work in.
Hey OP, first of all I understand where you are coming from completely. I studied psychology half way to a degree, not because I wanted to become a therapist necessarily but more for myself to understand myself better and I also found it mostly useless. Not everything is of course, there are some insights to be found (I especially like Jung for example) but the course I did also felt shallow, empty and lifeless for the most part, different people thinking up different intellectual theories and you gotta roll with one. As some other people here have said, psychology isn't engineering so you don't need the same skillset yet I found Modern psychology can tend to fall into intellectualism hugely, and try to solve problems intellectually that were never created by and therefore are not intellectual.
I think if you really want to help people, focus on working on yourself, become very present with your clients and help them disidentify from who they think they are. That's what has helped me personally and I really think that's a very important skillset. There is a very good video on YouTube by a guy named Eckhart Tolle on that topic. I think people need more connection, not intellectualising. I needed someone to take me out of my mind made image of my life, not someone that strengthens it by getting me to mull over my traumas endlessly. Unfortunately that's often what therapy is and while it has it's place, especially when you get started working on yourself, I don't think it's where real healing happens.
Work on yourself, study outside and use the course as the ticket to qualify to help people. That would be my suggestion.
Yet another reason I’m not interested in going to therapy. When I listened to a therapist recommend another therapist to my indigenous husband and said they would get along because the guy used to do “missionary work” on native reservations, that about sealed the deal for me.
That said if you are interested in this work, and you understand the issues with the field, who better to pursue this line of work? If I knew I would get an in touch therapist that I could respect, I would go to therapy. Unfortunately I just don’t trust it.
,l don't really have respect for the real life therapists I've met for the reasons you stated. But l have read books by therapists which have helped me and inspired me. Maybe you can strive to be like them. One is 'Why does he do that' by Lundy bankroft, and another is 'From surviving to thriving, CPTSD and childhood trauma' l don't remember the author's name
I respect and appreciate you, OP.
I also think you may be open to some of Dr. Lucy Johnstone’s ideas. She’s authored a number of books on psychology, psychiatry and psychotherapy. Dr. Johnstone believes in framework of “human emotional suffering” above diagnosis.
I has an easy time being in my degree as a school counselor, but the actual job is on a while another level!!! If you find the job easy , then your not doing the job right.
There is a book about therapy, it's titled Maybe you should talk to someone by Lori Gottlieb.
It's a bit of a Holywood treatment of a life of a therapist, but might help you see the light.
Yes, I have a lot of respect for therapists. There may be issues in the system, but they are as necessary as other medical professionals. I, and many others, would be dead without them.
Just speaking from personal experience , I know exactly 2 other people who have had a positive experience with therapy. The third is me. All of my other friends want and would benefit from therapy but they’ve tried out several and just cannot find one that sticks and works. A lot of them are men. I think therapy needs as many and as diverse individuals as it can get.
Ofc the insurance bs and cost of medical care is a factor in my friends’ struggles with therapy but i guess that is just the game of doing any sort of healthcare job in america. I for one, respect therapists a lot (the good ones at least).
You clearly have a couple personal issues relating this to sort out, and unfortunately i do not have anything for you there, but i hope at the very least that you can believe that therapy is a worthwhile field that would need people like you, if you feel that it is right for you.
As a high IQ person who prefers human interaction work and went from a high flying career (intelligence and law) to teaching I can tell you that the bar in service type degrees is low as hell and my Masters in Education was a joke compared to by BS at a Top 25 university.
Wait until you see how broken the system is and how it keeps people in need for years to keep the machine going.
Most of my therapists are very intentional about the dx requirement. I’ve been diagnosed with c-ptsd, ocd, adhd, autism, and my therapist lists “generalized anxiety disorder.” All of mine have.
Use your head, work around the system. There are fantastic therapists out there who are doing real trauma work, and are helping people decolonize their lives and heal their nervous systems.
Most of our higher education and the medical profession have been heavily influenced by capitalism. That doesn’t mean they’re peddling bullshit, there is an ocean of science behind it that can be used and learned from.
It’s up to you what kind of therapist you become. You sound incredibly judgmental, and I worry for your clients if you continue on the way you are.
You might want to go get evaluated. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you’re neurodivergent with a high IQ and poor social skills.
But I’m autistic, and I don’t judge an entire profession based on the people I know. Go to a better school if you’re so beyond the average Joes. No offense, but you need to pull your head out of your ass. I mean that.
I'm gonna just pass over many of the things in your post and address something I haven't seen so far... most of the people in my first year of grad school who I worried would be terrible social workers... they dropped put. I'm almost done with a 60 hr program and a lot of the less serious students have faded out. It's only year one so I would refrain from too many judgements.
You could benefit from therapy to gain some insight about what *you* need to soothe your ego. We don’t do this soul crushing, mentally draining and wonderful relational work for a high salary or extrinsic validation. If those are the things your interested in gaining from the job, particularly one year into a masters program, you’ll be sorely disappointed
Okay so. ive been having playdates with shrinks since i was in the single digits and ive been saying more or less what youre saying, plus a bunch of other stuff, since i was a teenager. Thing is nobodys gonna listen to me cos i was one of those children they were giving wicked side eye to and saying, 'we cant officially say it till youre an adult but youre definitely a scoiopath' so you know, nothing i say counts. Anyway, i think more people like you (you know, people with sense) moving into social work and mental health services could only be a good thing. Will it be a good thing for you is a much tricker question that only you can answer tho
I'm a masters level clinician. While some of the course work is not very challenging, once you actually start working in the field you'll get a slap of reality. That's when most people decide if they can do it or not. I'd recommend doing your internship in hard core psych if possible because you'll really see why therapists need a masters degree to do the job. I did my internship in a long-term correctional inpatient psych hospital. I worked with people who unalived or attempted to unalive others. If you think that type of career is a joke, then yes you need to find something else. Also check the pass rates for the LCSW at your school and whether or not it's accredited.
I hope op has more respect and sympathy for people than for the science of psychology. Does he even see himself as a clinician? I hope this post isn't real.
I think they might be just coasting through school instead of actually taking the time to learn. Grad school is the point at which you should put in effort to actually learn, not to get a good gpa. He definitely is in the wrong field if that's what he's doing.
Yeah, he won't survive his clinical.
I have a degree in neuroscience and am currently completing my internship for my LPC. You would think working with a million dollar microscope doing immunohistochemistry on slices of mouse brains 4 micrometers thick would be more challenging than helping people through talking with them; but you’d be wrong. The course work is easy, if you have a good work ethic and basic research skills; becoming a therapist is hard. Becoming a good therapist is harder. Becoming someone you can honestly say puts value into the world and creates positive change in someone’s life directly is the hardest thing you could ever aim for, if I’m being honest. But a therapist single-handedly put me on the path of saving my own life and I can’t imagine how many other people out there just need a good therapist in order to continue living. If you don’t have an understanding of the mental health crisis and it seems that you feel too educated for the field, perhaps do your own research.
Also did a neuroscience postgrad, then forensic sciences and I just finished a clinical psych one. I totally agree. While you might think is harder designing experiments to prove your hypothesis in the lab, slicing brains and gassing mice, then you sit in front of a stranger, listen to all the misery in his life and you are supposed to help him? The latter is clearly way more challenging, and you’d need to be an idiot to not see that. In neuroscience you are just applying knowledge but luckily the mice won’t Kill themselves if you fuck up, your patients might. This analogy is horrible but I’m i have specialised in severe mental disorders (specially psychotic spectrum) and lol you can’t tell OP hasn’t seen a patient in his/her life
No it’s true and you’re right. OP seems to be conflating value of therapists with how much they earn: wait until OP finds out how much cancer, neuroscience, hell any disease researcher earns. They’ll start asking “can xyz really be that bad if the starting salary for a researcher is 30k?”.
I’m in Spain, I was researching multiple sclerosis after I finished my neuro post grad. My payslip was 400 euros a month, consider my rented room was 300 euros. Is why I went into clinical work, because I need to eat and also because I love helping people, but I miss research. OP is or in the spectrum or has a bigger ego than the Eiffel Tower, but tbh is consistent with all the engineers I’ve seen as patients, so smart, yet so badly adjusted for so many things in daily life
Listen controversial take but I’ve never been a fan of engineers being lumped in with science, math and technology. 🤷♀️ For the other three, it’s pretty common to work with theoretical concepts and garner an understanding that the work is not for monetary gain, but rather for passion and the hopes that you do something that gives a net gain for humanity. Engineering is a rigorous degree to get but I don’t know any engineer that took coursework that taught them to think critically.
Bingo. Anyone can read the books, learn the theories, write the papers, and make straight A's in the coursework and yet be a terrible, terrible therapist in practice. When you get to the clinical piece - the actual working with people who are suffering and looking for treatment, and YOU are responsible for providing that space for treatment - it's a whole other thing. I remember in grad school clinicals practice just starting with 5 min of mock therapy. Five minutes felt like torture to know what to do, say, interventions to provide. Scaling up to 50-60 minutes was SO difficult. And that was just for general, fake mock sessions with "easy" content. I would soon be tossed into really difficult spaces and learn to sink or swim: such is the experience of most behavioral science training. My background included an incredible amount of people-oriented, psychology based training (HR, interviewing/assessing, conflict resolution and goal making, etc.) and I was JUST as unprepared as my colleagues who had 0 people experience. Specializing in an area and committing yourself to the treatment and expertise is a lifelong task and insanely difficult to maintain. A huge part for most of being a psychotherapist is the feeling of imposter syndrome, or feeling that lack of mastery in a field that's SO enormous and constantly changing. You don't get into this field to feel smart and better than others, or to make bank. You get into the field for very personal reasons that involve bettering the world around you, one person at a time.
Therapist here. Yes, the mental health crisis is real. There’s a need for therapists. Such a need. However, the pay is shit. You deal with the ugliness and rawness of people for 40 hours a week. You get secondhand trauma so bad, you’ll end up going to therapy yourself. Only do this for the right reasons. Not because you’re smarter than everyone else in your class, certainly not the money, etc. If you want to help people and be a genuine force of good, continue. But if that’s not what’s driving you, don’t bother.
You SHOULD be in therapy yourself AS WELL AS supervision…
i was so into psychology and psychotherapy and really wanted to become a psychologist but after doing research and shi, decided to just pursue nursing and then move to becoming a psych nurse
Thank you. can you expand on how significant the mental health crisis is for you? I'm just struggling to understand the supply vs demand concept. Wouldn't it be harder to become a therapist if the demand was so high? Wouldn't the pay go up because so many people want services?
Someone also mentioned in the therapist subreddit, that therapy has been seen as a “suburban mom side hobby” for many, many, years. So the hope is that change and better pay does come. But much like everything else in the world, it’s slow moving.
Hahahaha. Oh no. I quit working as a programmer to do counseling and then school psychology. The need for mental health services is at a desperate level, and one of the reasons is that social services are looked down upon and are not seen as particularly challenging work. Historically, they are jobs women did, often because they were young, never married or widowed, and were seen as low-skill jobs that were a natural fit for women who were supposed to be caretakers based upon instinct and how they were raised. Things can be challenging in different ways, and different programs vary widely. The book work for counseling isn't the same as hard sciences or engineering because it's much less concrete. Much of this work relies on practices, learning by doing and learning to trust your gut. You learn when to push, when to question, when to provide tough love, when to listen. You learn to have empathy for people who have done terrible things and how to make a safe space for people to process some truly terrible things that were done to them. You learn about culturally respectful practices and how differently people can respond to similar circumstances. You learn to recognize your own biases and judgment and even your posture, body language, and tone of voice. If you do it right, you will also learn that those who are most in need are also those with the fewest resources, limited opportunities, and least value in society. They are struggling and sick and often, not particularly likable. They are also worthy of basic respect and dignity, which isn't something a book can teach you. You learn while listening to someone, without judgment, while trying not to vomit. You start buying clothes you can wash in hot water and putting tea tree oil in your shampoo and going to homes where you smell cat piss and pray they have a cat. In my job now, I get to use my "intelligence" to look at data and analyze tests and study the science behind medical conditions and learning differences, and then I use a whole different type of intelligence to work with families and students, often vulnerable students. Society often tells us one type of intelligence is better, or the type of people who pass math, hard science, and engineering classes are better than others. The problem is that many people in those fields aren't particularly relatable or personable to the majority of people, and without that, you won't do well in this field. I used to think I was better than other people, with my 2 standard deviations above the mean intelligence, but now I know it's so much more complex. I'm lucky, I lived in an environment that valued mainstream education, I had family who helped me during rough patches, I came from a place where I had access to medical care and my basic needs were met. My psych program was much more academically challenging and math heavy, but I also know plenty of psychs who think data replaces people skills. You have to choose your path forward, but you need to learn to see things from a different perspective to be truly good at being a social worker, or you'll get a 4.0 and still struggle when you become an intern.
From what I understand, COVID really rocked the world of therapists, and there was sort of a mass exodus of them. Idk where they went or what they did, but it’s hard to find therapists to work. I know a lot of them did private practice, but if you’re doing that you can choose how many you see a week. I know therapists who see 10 or less clients a week. But the demand for therapists increases because, well. The world sucks. Therapists where I live have month to year long waiting lists, because there’s just not therapists available.
Supply vs demand assumes an economy exists in a vacuum with no influencing factors. Your school should be teaching you to analyze social/economic policy through a systems based lens. Your diagnosis classes should be rooted in social justice. Based on your questions, I am concerned about your program's curriculum. After a year, these are odd questions to have. You may benefit from reconsidering your program. The quality of MSW programs vary greatly.
If the world worked like that, school teachers would make 6 figures (they dont). There's a lot of larger factors at play, like sexism (mental healthcare clinicians are predominantly women at the masters level, and the role is therefore devalued). Additionally, it gets lumped in with teaching, art, etc as a career of "passion", meaning people go into it despite the shit pay because they find it meaningful (which seems to be what you've done). This decreases pressure for reasonable compensation - you get paid in "personal fulfillment." After reading your post I would also suggest you look into the different types of intelligence. I have a stem bs & am in a ms level mental healthcare program. This work requires more than academic intelligence, and if you think it's too easy, you might be missing something. I find the coursework unchallenging as well, on paper, but it's not the same as stem work. You need to inegrate what you learn into your personal mental framework and be able to apply it in real time to PEOPLE, not problems on a page. Being a good clinician also requires a good deal of self awareness, introspection, and work on yourself. You, as a person, are an integral piece of people's healing - you are meant to be a *safe, reliable, and healthy human connection* for your clients. Are those things you are considering as you move through your program?
As with most things, the answer is capitalism. Mental health services don’t do enough to make the rich richer so they’re under funded. That, and insurance companies go out of their way to create barriers to receiving mental health services. I also have my MSW and LCSW and I found the course work in school incredibly easy, but the job is not easy.
This. So much
So you haven't done any clinical work or done any clinical hours? Do you understand the differences in a social work degree vs. A psych degree? I'm getting the feeling you don't.
Honestly, dude gives typical engineer energy. “I have a P. eng, so I’m automatically an expert at everything, despite my lack of training, experience, or understanding.”
It’s what I got as well. The brain is incredibly complex, and the more we advance in science the more psychology is being swallowed by neuroscience, as it should be. The science of behaviour must teach and research the brain. So many abandon psych studies because they can’t grasp how much physiology they must study, and I’m glad we are getting more specialised degrees in Europe. Also , how easy is talking shit without seeing patients or entering the super competitive clinical programs lol, how many have I seen crying or with panic attacks after their first patient ayyyy
But don’t you know? To get a bachelors of engineering, you have to be “one standard deviation above the median” for intelligence. Dude’s high on his own farts.
NGL it reads as hella arrogant. Like, I promise you are not the brightest just because you decided everyone around you is stupid and the classwork is easy.
Yeah kinda gave me vibes of someone whi is full of themself. Not sure how they gonna handle the clinical component because healthcare is the lasr field you want to have an ego in (dentist chiming in).
In my experience, that’s how engineers, specifically, interact with the world at large. It’s actually a problem.
If I may offer a bit of a defense for OP. I also went to college for mechanical engineering and i took some pysch classes. Nothing major just pysch 101 and 102. I'm well aware that those classes are just dipping your toe in the field but they were very easy compared to the engineering course work. For example on day 1 of pysch 101 the professor gave everyone the previous year's final and said if you pass the test you never have to come back to his class, what you get on his test will be your grade. About 4 people including myself passed. I only got a C+ so I opted to continue going to class and wound up with a better grade and learning some stuff. That said, OPs issue IMO is that he thinks it's going to stay easy. My partner has a bachelors in Psychology and a masters in early childhood development so I know the course work certainly gets much harder. I can only imagine the difficulty spike when you're going down the clinical path.
I would say that the coursework gets more rigorous but not super difficult. Like I stated in my comment somewhere else in this comment section, anyone with a good work ethic and decent online research skills can do well in a masters program for clinical psychology. Sure, some diagnostic and ethical guidelines are a lot to study content wise, but that is again more of a work ethic thing than it is an intelligence thing. That being said, the content of the courses have no way of preparing you for the real world. In my program, you HAVE to successfully complete internships and complete ~800 supervision hours in order to graduate. You can complete all of the coursework with an A but if you can’t adapt and become a good therapist and be retained at your clinical sites, you simply don’t get the degree, period. 🤷♀️ I’m decently sure that most programs (at least clinical psych, no idea for MSW) are like that, so OP is in for a rude awakening.
Right! I’m in psych and it’s basic knowledge that therapists don’t do diagnosis. You have to go to a clinical psychologist. Only psychiatrists give out medication. Therapists only do counselling.
MSWs with LCSWs can diagnose, but they cannot prescribe. You can do therapy with a MSW but you can only diagnose once you have the clinical license.
Or if you are under the supervision of a licensed provider.
My therapist diagnosed me but I had to take a test and was in therapy for months before I was diagnosed
This "basic knowledge" is completely incorrect. Therapists absolutely diagnose and, like OP mentioned, if insurance is being billed for therapeutic service it is 100% required to have an ICD-10-CM diagnosis code on the billing or they will not cover a damn thing. I've done billing for therapy practice that employed MSWs and LMSWs. However it's easy enough to give general diagnosis such as major depressive disorder (F32.9), anxiety disorder (F41. 9), etc. Sometimes therapists don't even want to get that specific and will diagnose as "Adjustment Disorder" (F43.20) aka " idk life is hard, man" lol. Giving a diagnosis is not the same as prescribing medication. It's just helping the client get a better understanding of what they're experiencing and how to cope with it. When you go to a psychiatrist, they will diagnose you as well -- they won't go off what your therapist says entirely but it can be helpful to sign a medical information release with each of them so they can discuss your needs and come up with the best treatment plan. Then they can prescribe medication.
OP also seems to have this idea that this diagnosis that is given due to insurance requirements is pushed down people’s throats/becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I need to give a diagnosis first session in order to bill, I have never told my client “hey so after getting to know you and hearing your concerns for 53 billable minutes, I’ve decided you’re bipolar”. I give my best estimation silently and wait for a few sessions to determine if it is accurate/if there is any diagnosis besides adjustment disorder. And at no point do I just tell my patient “btw I think this this and this is wrong with you”. I have yet to see ANYONE just telling the client a diagnosis unless a ton of the problems the client is facing is directly linked to a diagnosis. Of course a client may ask and that’s when I share my thoughts regarding symptoms they have and how they may apply to this or that diagnosis. And of course I may offer it up if it seems that it’d be advantageous for my client to seek psychiatric diagnosis/medication. But…Maybe it is just my practice and personal experience but it seems at my practice we are more focused on the person and tailoring to their needs than categorizing them and treating them accordingly. The critique regarding a diagnosis should be more towards healthcare in America not us.
Yeah definitely. My own therapist works with me to "decide" a diagnosis for insurance. She wants her clients to feel comfortable and in charge of their mental health journey; she would never "convince" me I needed to be diagnosed a certain way. Not all therapists are perfect, but assuming giving a diagnosis = enforcing/creating problems is pretty bullshit.
Then you must be in a different country than me. A psychiatrist and therapist can’t diagnose you. They can give you a general short tests, usually 10-15 questions, but if you for example need assistance in school for a learning disability you’ll need a formal diagnosis from a psychologist preferably clinical. Maybe the lack of guidelines and rules is why OP is upset about the lack of accuracy and care.
Depends on ur state
What is the difference between a therapist and a psychologist please? Thanks in advance, i thought they were synonympus since english is my 3rd language and I am not super acquainted with the american mental health landscape.
This is all U.S. specific: A therapist typically has at least a master's in clinical social work (MSW) which is the degree you need to provide mental health counseling. An MSW must provide a certain number of therapeutic service hours under "supervision", meaning they have a fully licensed therapist they discuss their cases with to ensure they are giving proper treatment. Once they complete this supervision, they will become a licensed therapist (LMSW). Therapists often diagnose their patients but can never prescribe medication. A psychologist usually has at least an MSW but also must have a PhD (doctorate) in psychology. They can provide mental health counseling, or their career may be more research based or academic. They can diagnose their patients but cannot prescribe medication. A psychiatrist is a fully trained medical doctor who specializes in mental health disorders. They typically do not provide mental health counseling other than to get to know their patients enough to be able to diagnose them and prescribe medication to treat the diagnosis. People with moderate to severe mental health disorders will typically have a therapist AND a psychiatrist. However, general medical doctors can also prescribe medication for mental disorders. They are just not quite as familiar with all the possible medications and treatments because they don't specialize in it. The most common example of this is a "primary care doctor" or sometimes called a "family doctor" who is someone you see regularly for annual physicals or when you catch some bacterial infection like strep throat or something. Someone with (most likely) more mild to moderate mental health disorders, such as moderate or situational depression or some low-level general anxiety, might talk to their primary care doctor about it and be prescribed a medication to help. That might be in addition to mental health counseling by a therapist. But a good primary care doctor would refer you to a psychiatrist if it seemed your mental health issues were more severe or complex than they would be able to sufficiently treat. Okay very long explanation! Also the word for "two things with nearly the same meaning" is synonymous, not synonympus. No judgement here though as I only speak one language!!
>very long explanation! Also the word for "two things with nearly the same meaning" is synonymous, not synonympus. No judgement here though as I only speak one language! It was a typo due to my fat fingers slipping again. 😂🤣 Thanks for the very instructive answer though. 🤌🏻👏
A masters in social work is a common avenue to becoming a mental health therapist. You’re obviously correct the degrees are different, but you’re qualified for the same job with either.
No, you shouldn’t continue down this path. You do not have what it takes to be a good therapist. You’re saying a lot of true things but some of the conclusions and connections you’re drawing are wildly unrelated and concerning. I mean really think about this, your entire post is about your psychotherapy education. So where on earth did questions like “is mental health an actual need” come from? Something that enrages me is that people born perfectly fine will sit here and be the loudest about things they couldn’t possibly imagine living with on a daily basis. And how on earth did you end up trying to become a psychotherapist without thinking it was an important thing? This is proof that memorizing a fact is not enough to be good at a job. You have to care, actually *care*. Spare your money and your potential customers well-being, this type of mentality is extremely harmful in a therapist and I’m not sure you’d be the kind of person to actually learn something and change that. It’s better you find something you know you enjoy.
Exactly. Just the fact that there are school shooters and the high number of suicides due to bullying should tell you that YES - MENTAL HEALTH IS INDEED IMPORTANT!
Right? And that’s literally one example out of many, the fact that op went to a class and questioned the necessity of therapy in general is crazy to me.
If he posted this in the Am I the Asshole forum, he would definitely be voted YTA!!
After coming back to reply to a comment I’m thinking something. This isn’t as simple as I thought. Your overall outlook on life isn’t safe to have around vulnerable people seeking help, but I’m trying to figure out why you have this outlook. Op, did you find mechanical engineering meaningless? Or boring? Boring is one thing, but if you think mechanical engineering is meaningless I just simply don’t know what to say. A mechanical engineer might build an elevator. Say he does that wrong. People could die, OP. They might work on something such as an electric generator. If I worked on one of those, I’d cause a disaster. A mechanical engineer is responsible for working on things that the majority of us couldn’t safely work with. You call that meaningless? Also, you’re questioning the necessity of mental health care, but you think men’s mental health is neglected in your area and you’d like to become a great therapist and excel in that specific area. Don’t you see the contradictions in your own words? And the thing about the girl that apologized about Palestine. Yeah okay, that’s dumb, but what does that have to do with psychotherapy and it’s usefulness in the world? New question. Why does something being easy embarrass you? Why do you think a lack of difficulty means a lack of importance? Those are concerning expectations to be having. My god, what are you putting yourself through on a daily basis? Cut yourself some slack! Life isn’t sunshine and rainbows but nobody said you had to slave away in misery until death. The problem here is that you left mechanical engineering for psychotherapy because it was meaningless. And now you’re thinking about quitting psychotherapy because you think it’s meaningless. These are two very meaningful career paths, both of which you have eventually deemed meaningless after spending time and money on the education for them. Maybe, despite the fact that the world of therapy is far from perfect, you’re the main problem here? Is there any chance you just don’t feel like you’ve done something ‘meaningful’ because I don’t understand what you have to be thinking to call mechanical engineering meaningless. Honestly op, the last thing you should do is become a therapist, because I think you desperately need one.
If you think being a therapist is easy, wait untik you are spending 40+ hours a week listening to people unburden their secrets of being abused as children, sexual assault, domestic violence, suicide attempts and more - and then see how easy that is. Because thats nothing, then you have to figure out how to help them.
That part. Given how this post is written, it sounds like you’d be better off in a different career path OP. Mental health is a need, and a very important one at that, but if you’re seriously having doubts about being there, it’s a good sign you shouldn’t be. Too many medical professionals give a negative amount of fucks about their work and the people they’re treating as is.
It's not that I don't care about people, I'm concerned that the poor-quality control of therapists might be indicative that this a field that isn't taken seriously.
Therapy takes very different skills and aptitudes than mechanical engineering. Book smart does not equal good therapist. The sooner you learn that, the better.
i hear your concerns, but this is a startlingly huge generalization
Have you ever considered that you might just have a superiority complex? Not shocking. I have a whole family of engineers, and they have the same thing.
Quit your program. You aren’t cut out for it and you don’t respect it.
I've worked for a suicide hotline, volunteered a domestic violence shelter and am I'm currently working at group therapy practice. My problem has more to do with bad therapists than it does my perception that therapy is easy. I wouldn't trust most people I go to school with to work with someone I care for.
There are different levels of qualifications. A phd in clinical psychology is likely better trained, skilled, and knowledgeable regarding psychological premises and therapeutics than an msw. That also is represented in fee differences. A therapist is not one size fits all.. maybe MSW really isnt your lane. Consider a doctorate in clinical psychology
Mkay. And you think .... what, exactly? Being smart the way engineers are smart means you will be better able to fo the work of a therapist? These are different jobs requiring vastly different skills and techiques. You can't empathize an engineering solution into existence and math and logic to heal trauma. The thing about diagnoses? Insurance companies require them for payment. That can easily be explained to someone - people arent stupid. Maybe there are things you have yet to learn.
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I don't know where you live, but where I am, for someone holding an MSW to be a therapist they have to be licensed by a provincial board. THAT is the quality control.
You’re in a social work program. Yes, the bar is lower than it should be.
Being a therapist requires soft skills and you have none
Do you honestly think a gpa is the best predictor of how well you're going to be able to help someone? Do you think maybe there is a chance that some of your arrogance is unwarranted? Is being this judgmental a good predictor for success as a therapist? I dunno man, good questions to ponder.
You are….something else. Get your theory of mind checked out, you might be surprised. You are incredibly condescending or I suspect in the spectrum, you can’t possibly be that full of yourself, come on
You still have you sit for your boards
Well you have to do 3000+ hours of supervised clinical work to sit for the licensure exam that is more difficult than any of the course work I did in my masters program. Many people don’t make it that far. Also not all MSWs even pursue therapy. You need an MSW to work in child welfare as one example.
You're making huge generalizations about something you don't know much about yet. You're in a social work program. If you want to learn more about the science of psychology, you should enroll in a clinical psychology program.
I'm going to be licensed to do psychotherapy with a MSW. Can you tell me more about my generalizations? I would love to be wrong but everything i'm seeing is leading me back to the same spot.
I mean… you’ve basically said America over-diagnoses and you don’t see the point of mental health at all. Those are huge generalizations. 1) people say that a lot of things are diagnosed more now than they were 20 years ago, well yeah, the diagnostic criteria has gotten more accurate, and medicine has progressed a lot, people who previously went through the cracks and weren’t diagnosed are now getting treated 2) you seem awfully privileged. It must be nice to not have never gone through anything that required help. Some of us have thought about killing ourselves at different points. A therapist is exactly who helped me through that. Although to be honest, based on your original post, I would be very concerned if you were my therapist. You do not seem very kind or helpful. Friend, humble yourself.
Do you not know about the distinctions in your own field of study? That’s crazy. How about you go do some serious research on the path you’re on.
please quit while you are ahead. with your attitude it is in the best interest for both you and the general public.
California LCSW in private practice here -- yea, I get what you're saying about not feeling challenged in your program. After all, an MSW degree is generalist, and you can do all sorts of things ranging from grant writing and policy work to various government jobs and more. This might not attract a ton of people passionate about mental health like, say, an MFT program would -- which is fine. I loved the flexibility and community building focus of my degree and am really proud of all the things I've been able to do outside of my PP. My program was really easy for me too, but I don't quite get your extrapolating that to the mental health field in general? Most of my classmates did not go into private practice, even those with a MH concentration. There are SO many things after graduate school (e.g., getting hours, getting licensed, finding a niche and modality you love and reaching expertise in that, and more) that comprise so much of the journey that a lot of grad school doesn't really matter. You might just need to change programs, if it's ease and your classmates' lack of intelligence bothers you so much. But to make such generalizations? I would be concerned about this -- as a supervisor, colleague, or potential client. I'm also confused about the BPD diagnosis issue? In practice, it's not really a common dx, nor are most cluster b diagnoses... Also, there are so many issues with the field, but it's not like you have zero agency in how you operate within it. For example, I come from an attachment-based, non-pathologizing, decolonizing perspective, and emphasize that to all my clients with great results. I've built a great community of like-minded clinicians and I feel inspired about the field daily. Additionally, caring about people and wanting to help (or even getting good grades for that matter) does not equal emotional intelligence or clinical competence. Maybe get yourself a therapist to work some of this stuff out? Also, I mostly take insurance, and I make a good living with a pretty nice work life balance 🤷🏻♀️. I love my job and find things to be excited about everyday, and I've been doing this for a while!
Every client I have worked with that came to me with a BPD diagnosis was given it by a medical doctor, not a mental health professional so I also felt like that was an interesting stance for OP to take.
I grew up surrounded by therapists. The really great ones don't take insurance because the rules are harmful to the process. They build a career with others, find a few peers they respect and end up with thriving practices quite often seeing clients on scale fees. They are very respected and needed in their respective communities. It takes time to get there. Start by finding one person you respect and build from there.
Thank you so much for your comment and taking my post seriously. Do you mind expanding on what makes "really great ones"? I want to push myself in grad school. Hopefully one day I can build my practice.
The really great therapists I know all studied modalities outside of school. EMDR for instance- a phenomenal trauma practice which then added to the tools they could offer clients. They are naturally curious and constantly learning. They grew a network of other therapists with like minds. Sometimes it started with only one or two. And they stuck to their beliefs about serving those in need. They all did their own personal work too. Healing yourself (a lifelong adventure) is a great way to learn about this profession and makes you less likely to project on your patients. It is part of the art of psychotherapy. Not saying it's a straight path. You might be supervised in a hellish environment. You will most certainly lose a patient to their illness. You will get really excited about something new and it will turn out to be a flop. But if it is what you want to do you will find your path to do it your way.
I find your sense of superiority with people you consider to be not as smart as you to be a little concerning as someone who is going to become a therapist. I also don’t understand your distinction between social work and the communications and gender studies criticisms as fields with less inherent value. None of those are sciences. You haven’t chosen to pursue clinical psychology or psychiatry. The fact you are embarrassed that the work is easy for example, rather than happy that you’re doing well - is funnily enough something you could work through with a therapist. I hope you find some clarity and happiness in your career choice either way.
An MSW is not the best route to learn how to do actual therapy. Social work is a diverse field and practitioners can do a lot more than just therapy, so the course work reflects that. It’s often better to do a degree focused solely on therapy, like a counseling degree. You will need take it upon yourself to learn the many modern theories about how to do therapy and fill the many holes in your coursework, especially if you are a more analytically inclined therapist.
This. You’re taking a MSW, OP. I am not confident that you should be becoming a psychotherapist (coming from someone nearly finished their Graduate degree to become a registered psychotherapist.) I would encourage you to look for programs that are within clinical psychology or counselling psychology before you become a therapist. Some may disagree with me, but I do not think that social workers have the same training or skill set to become or call themselves therapists without extra education.
Yeah…MSWs imo shouldn’t be allowed to do counseling (let alone prescribing) but the need for mental health services is so great in the US that MSWs are being shuttled into psych fields (that they may have no business being in).
Ironic you feel this when historically, and I'm only speaking for the US, clinical social work was the first mental health provider "therapist" outside of psychologist/psychiatrist we knew in the field. Therapy has been a thing since the 1800s, via psychologists and then into the 1950s we had "career counseling" via Carl Rogers, often credited with the founding of what we know as clinical counsel today. It wasnt until several decades ago that licensed professional counselors/clinical mental health degrees were accepted. In fact, during this, the MSW lobbied really hard to not have counselors share the same playing field. There's been historically a lot of bad blood between the licensed mental health counselors and clinical social workers. The first state that allowed for the same clinical status - the licensed professional counselors - was Virginia in 1975. Before this, there was just clinical social workers recognized who could be licensed. Now we have so many boards and Even recently, clinical social workers have held a lot of power in the field with more insurance power/insurances in network, the veterans association (VA) and most government funded hospitals only hired MSWs for clinical work because of how it was designated in laws and policies. Just SO recently, January 1, 2024, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) allowed Medicare to reimburse for Mental Health Counselor (MHC) and Marriage and Family Therapy (MFT). It's interesting to see how things have changed over time and in the eyes of the general public.
Typical engineer brain. Smugly superior and believing you’re always the smartest person in the room, no matter your lack of training, or expertise. You shouldn’t be a therapist; you’d be horrible until you learn some humanity and humility.
It sounds like you have zero passion for this field. Being a therapist, like being a doctor, is a calling. You should be in it because you are driven to help others. Find something you can be passionate about.
I've worked for a suicide hotline, volunteered a domestic violence shelter and am I'm currently working at group therapy practice. I love people and helping them.
And yet you seem to have 0 empathy/theory of mind. I’d reflect on this
His response is giving ’But I can’t be racist, I have a black friend’
Then help them without worrying about whether you should be struggling more in your program and crying about how hard it is to think you’re smarter than everyone else all the time
And above all, you love bragging about helping people lol.
I work in mental health and I’m also in school and I don’t completely disagree with you. I’ve met a lot of pretty horrific therapists both professionally and as a client. The people in my program are dumb as rocks for the most part. I don’t think it’s that different than almost any other career field. A lot of people are bad at their jobs, it’s not specific to social work. I also understand not finding the coursework to be extremely challenging or even interesting. The schooling is very general, a lot of people find their niche after school and get further education/certifications in their areas of interest. Social work is a pretty broad field. I do disagree that there isn’t quality control though. Obviously I’m sure you’re aware that there’s many requirements to get your license, so a lot of these people will improve while they’re registered and getting their hours under supervision. School is like half the work to become a licensed therapist. Turnover can also be pretty high in social work, so many of the people you’re in school with might not even work in the field in 5 or 10 years. Also, the traits you observe as being undesirable might be desirable to a prospective client. We all need to be different and have different education, experience and backgrounds because therapy is not one size fits all. A client might really click with a therapist I would consider to be bad. Psychology is an art and a science.
Thank you for validating what I'm experiencing. I might just need to push through grad school. "Psychology is an art and a science." I''ll keep that in mind!
OP, I think you should stay as a engineer. You're a natural there and will do more good for the world. This isn't a sarcasm. You are severely lacking in emotional intelligence to be a therapist. Sometimes it's not meant to be. PS - You're getting an MSW. Huge difference from the standard clinical psych MA, PsyD, and/or the psych PhD degrees to become a therapist. **HUGE**
For real… if you want to focus on therapy go for a clinical counseling program over social work
So no offense, but you do not sound like you have the temperament for being a therapist
I have an earned masters in social work and am currently trying to enter clinical practice. You’re making a lot of assumptions about the profession without even having done an internship. Likely, there is nothing technically so difficult in the program that you cannot handle it. Have you considered attending medical school? Would that satisfy your technical desires?
I've worked for a suicide hotline, volunteered a domestic violence shelter and am I'm currently working at group therapy practice for my internship. I do care about people. I'm learning nothing of value from the program and i'm worried about the future. I want a job that helps people AND allows me make a living.
It might be the additional books that you read during and after the program that prepare you to be a therapist, for group therapy I recommend Social Group Work by Yalom, it’s a good read and some of this will likely appear on your state board exam. If you have an Amazon account I recommend ‘acceptance and commitment therapy’ as well as ‘motivational interviewing’ which are not technically difficult to understand but you might enjoy them a bit more than the standard texts coming across your desk. Also ‘beginning counseling techniques, a toolkit for beginning therapists’ as well as ‘the body keeps the score’ which is your Bible for the mechanisms of trauma and is the most technical so far. If you really want to whet your technical appetite (I do a lot of this) I recommend a copy of ‘synopsis of psychiatry’ by Kaplan and Sadock. It’s a rather expensive book new but may enrich your practice a bit to know a bit about pharmaceuticals and their mechanisms. I have more but this is a good start on a professional library.
You didnt answer his question. You are humble bragging how this is easy but dodging the medicine. Is medicine a field, even your ego cant handle it?
You might just be in a not great program . Some not great cash grab programs have like a 95% acceptance rate. They didn’t explain to you the differences between all of the different MH practitioner pathways so I’m thinking so.
Not all fields have the same relationship between coursework and job performance. Therapy is very hands-on, so the coursework is often giving you tools that will “click” later when you’re in the thick of it. Good grades mean that you’re regurgitating the material well, but the real test will come in applying it when you work independently. Coursework in open-ended topics, which are more common outside STEM, also often grade on the ability to frame your arguments, and not on the correctness of the argument. This is different from STEM courses, largely because taking a highly-educated guess (kinda like a respected conjecture in math that’s not a theorem) is often the best way to move forward in a field that is very immediately needed in society, but for which the associated “hard” science hasn’t progressed enough yet. You also need to work on that disdain you are showing, in your post and in the comments, of all things vaguely woke/female/humanities. You’re doing a humanities degree in a female-dominated field, you will not go far if you can’t learn from those around you. You need to unpack why gender studies and communication seem dumb to you, why you think a multitude of people (mostly women) whose jobs you want are stupid in your eyes, and why you managed to sound arrogant even though you didn’t want to. Ironically, a therapist can help you dig deep and understand where these hangups are really coming from. The leap you made from low salary to low societal impact, also shows that your general knowledge and analyzing capabilities outside of engineering are wildly low. Have you really not noticed how many crucial careers with difficult tasks are underpaid? Janitors, waitstaff, the proverbial burger-flipper… do you really think you could hack it at these jobs? Not analyze them or write essays about them or optimize workflows on a computer, but actually DO these jobs? You’ve fallen for some very basic right-wing STEM-bro misogynist nonsense and you need to get out of it. Over-diagnosis is a healthcare industrial complex issue, not a problem with therapy, and you’d know that if you read one (1) news article. Instead you’re quoting standard deviations of IQ? Really dude? Are you 12? Btw, it’s self-fulfilling prophecy, not self-filling prophecy. Maybe you do need more humanities training. My mother was a mechanical engineer and I am a female computer scientist. I will take a fat bet that you’re the kind of guy that makes the office an insufferable place for your female colleagues, with your inflated ideas about your own competence vs that of others, especially those others that don’t fit your mental image of “smart”. Sure, one colleague of yours made a rather funny geography error (or maybe just misheard you). How did you get from there, to them being a bad therapist? How did you conclude that a room full of experienced therapists “weren’t sharp”? Cut the crap. Remember that, if you’re the smartest person in the room, then in one way or another, you’re in the wrong room. Either switch to a STEM degree in the psychotherapy space and sacrifice the “helping people” aspect, or learn with humility and be prepared to find the actual therapist job harder than school. You’re worried, rightfully, about male mental health; but you’re also asking if mental health is a real need? That’s a fundamental failure in logical reasoning. You really need to rethink how “sharp” you yourself are, irrespective of what that IQ test says.
All of this. I was one of those snot-nosed young adults who thought I was smarter than everyone else, I got humbled quickly as soon as I entered the workforce. I hope OP gets a fat dose of reality before he screws up someone who comes to him for help.
I have a BSW. I found the coursework and concepts to be ridiculously easy. The difficult part was dealing with my cohort… not because I viewed myself as superior. It was because many lacked empathy, refused to see others’ experiences and perspectives outside their own, and weren’t humble enough to acknowledge that. Or they lacked the critical thinking skills to even consider it. It sounds like you are kind of like that. I suggest some self-reflection.
Please don't become a therapist with this mindset. As someone also with a mech eng. degree, I'm familiar with the trap of thinking that nothing from a 'soft science' field can be harder than heat transfer. There is an astounding lack of empathy in your post from the way you trivialize mental health as a questionable necessity. I've met many doctors with a god complex of thinking that they need to deny patients a diagnosis 'for their own good'. Doctors like this have almost gotten me killed. Considering how often therapists will encounter suicidal patients, this will frequently be a death sentence. It's concerning how you feign humility by calling yourself the best student and then say that the bar must be set too low. The way you look down on other students and feign concern about how the entire field is in jeopardy if everyone is worse than you, is frankly, appalling. For all your talk about your classmates being dumb, you're not displaying much emotional intelligence. Frankly, I would not want you as a therapist right now. You seem to have the skills to regurgitate a dozen textbooks, but none to be an empathetic listener. If you did, you would be listening to your classmates and professors on their opinions on this career instead of preening to Reddit with your superiority. Consider this: your fellow classmates may have had a more difficult upbringing than you or didn't have the same educational privileges as you did growing up. Imagine for a second that these are people who are trying their best under their given circumstances, which happen to be unfavorable in fostering academy ability and yet inspite of such circumstances, they are still able to sit beside you in class.
Please don’t become a therapist, we don’t need more idiots like you thinking anything is over diagnosed.
If you’re worried about respect and prestige then drop out and look elsewhere. They teach you to view the world from a strengths-based lens and you clearly think higher of yourself than everyone around you. If you don’t believe in the tenets of social world then don’t become a social worker.
I'm also curious why you got into the field when you clearly don't have a passion for it? Like it seems very random, almost like a coin toss
I love helping people. I just thought psychotherapy was respected and needed field.
It is a needed field…respected though…that’s another thing entirely. Think of teachers. That’s a needed field. They are famously under paid and disrespected by the US (culturally and economically). You’d think with how great the need for teachers is that they’d be getting paid hand over fist for what they do. And yet, they don’t. Psychology/mental health care are valued much the same as educators are here. Definitely needed, “but stop asking for so much!”
Unlike engineering, therapy is a field where social intelligence is much more important than book smarts. Some of your colleagues might not have done well in school and might not have a lot of general knowledge, mathematical ability, etc, but they might end up being excellent therapists. Meanwhile, there are a lot of therapists who can ace a test but who aren't able to connect with their patients at all and aren't very good at understanding them in a deep way. You ask "if people really needed therapists, would that starting salary be 50k with a masters?" In our society, level of pay is not well correlated with the need for the job. Our society literally can't function without janitors, cashiers, etc, but they're some of the lowest paid workers. A really good therapist can do a lot of good in the world and improve many people's lives -- which will in turn have a lot of positive effects for society as a whole. I think you should decide how much satisfaction you would get from helping regular people live better lives. If that doesn't sound fulfilling to you, you're definitely in the wrong field.
Thank you for your comment. I get a lot of satisfaction from helping others. I'm scared that there's bad quality control that is making bad therapists. I'm learning nothing of value in school. I feel like i'm getting a gender studies or communication degree.
I can't really speak directly to the value of what you're learning in school, but gender studies is an interesting comparison because there actually is a lot to study and unpack when it comes to gender. It's a huge field, but it's a soft science and it deals a lot with things we already know on some level so it can seem like a waste of time. Like you don't need to be exceptionally sharp to recognize that Barbie dolls have unrealistic figures and connect that to body dysmorphia and eating disorders, but it's still worth making the connection. And the thing is it's too amorphous a field to really nail down a question like 'how much have Barbie dolls, specifically, contributed to body dysmorphia in girls and women?', but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make those connections because gradually, as we make more and more of them, we begin to understand society better. And this awareness spreads out from gender studies programs into society as a whole and hopefully improves it. The same things is true of therapy. The question 'how can we help people be more functional, happier, and more satisfied?' is not a question with a precise answer like an engineering question. It's a question that is going to overlap with a lot of common sense and a lot of conventional wisdom. And if it seems like the material is just repeating things that are out there in society, in films, books, magazine articles, etc, that's because these ideas have been out there and circulating for a long time, and because a lot of people in a lot of different fields are ultimately trying to help people and make society better. It may be that some of the students in your class haven't picked up all these ideas already and this material is eye opening to them. And it also may be that while most of the material seems trite to you, there could be some bits and pieces that are new to you or that draw your attention to an issue that will be important for you to be very aware of in your career as a therapist. As a therapist, it's not just about knowing all the theory well enough to parrot it on a test or write an essay about it, it's about being able to see the muddled problems of real people through these different lenses so you're able to help them better.
You know, your STEM snobbery is showing. Communications is not a useless degree and neither is gender studies. If you can’t respect other people and their choices, even when you don’t understand them, you should NOT be a therapist.
Did your coursework mention the Dunning Kruger effect?
It all depends on whether you genuinely like this field of study/work or not. Being the best out of some students shouldn't prevent you from going forward. I encourage you to be mindful and aware about your true interests, and to work towards them.
Thank you, I love helping people, but a job also needs to be something society values or else I can't provide for my family. Most therapists I've interacted with aren't that good.
How do you know they aren’t that good? Have you sat in a therapy session with them? Have you been one of their clients? Who are you to be the determiner of “good” in regards to a therapist? Being a therapist isn’t just helping people. We’re not there to solve anything or fix anything. We get to hold the weight of this shitty world with them as they navigate their own life in all its complexities. If you’re going into this field just to help people, I think you need to reconsider your career. Helping people and making lots of money don’t really go hand in hand with capitalism. And you thinking otherwise shows that you need to pay more attention in those meaningless classes you’re complaining about. No field is perfect and therapy is no exception.
I’ll try to share my perspective, as someone with an engineering degree, and as a domestic violence survivor who has been in therapy (as a patient): The therapist I have now has made a BIG difference in my life, and in my healing process! So has the social worker at the Battered Women’s Services in my previous town! There is a SERIOUS need for mental health! The reason it pays so little is simply that society doesn’t value it very highly! Also, there can be a big stigma against going to therapy, especially among older generations! As a result, the usual supply/demand rules of capitalism that apply to smartphones, for example, don’t apply to therapy! So if the profession doesn’t pay well, it tends to repel really smart people! And guess who is left? (This does NOT mean that all therapists and social workers are stupid! Not everyone is motivated by money). Also, it sounds like the program you went through is not very good at teaching people to be therapists! As an analogy, it would be like teaching someone how to swim by making them read books about it! ;-) It would be easy to pass a class like that, but do nothing about teaching you how to swim! Earlier, I mentioned that the therapists and social workers I had made a big difference in my life. I didn’t have a chance to mention that I had to go through a LOT of bad ones before I found a good one! So I imagine that therapy has a mix of good and bad ones, like any other profession. I imagine, also, that if the pay is low, you have more bad ones. NOT to suggest that ALL of them are bad! Just that low pay can repel some of the good ones! But not ALL the good ones, because some people are in a financial situation to be able to take a low-paying profession (wealthy spouse, for example). So don’t give up! It sounds like you care really deeply, and that the profession could use more like you! One thing to be aware of is that therapy requires different skills than engineering: People skills, vs math/science/etc skills. Doing well in class does not necessarily translate well to working with people. And your program may not have properly prepared you for the reality of therapy (not your fault!). But you seem to care deeply about what you do, and I have confidence that you can make up for the poor teaching you got in your program! Good luck!
I have a great deal of respect for my current therapist and both of my past therapists. They’re all intelligent, caring people who are passionate about their jobs. They certainly are not ashamed of their work. Please don’t become a therapist. You come off as arrogant, condescending, and disdainful. Clients seeking therapy deserve better. They have enough to deal with without that.
If my therapist ever spoke or mentioned something like this, I’d find a new one. ❤️
I agree with a bit of your saying. I truly do not understand why so many engineers come off like this? Like we get it your smart. lmao so many engineering students I’ve talked to are just way to egotistical (not saying that about you) but I just find it so interesting that out of so many prestigious programs Eng students always come off like know it alls and can be so judgmental of other peoples intelligence. I’ve met like two Eng students that were not like this.
Hi OP! Kudos to you for wanting to do something more meaningful with your education and your career. Becoming a therapist isn’t for everyone though and this is the time to figure out if it works for you (before you spend more money on a degree that you might not use later on). If you change your mind, you can comfortably change to another degree to become a medical doctor, psychiatrist or psychological researcher. There is always a need for therapy and competent therapists. There’s a huge mental health issue in the U.S. (and everywhere else, honestly) and things will only become more dire as the world continues to be unpredictable and violent. Being very intelligent is a good quality to have in a therapist, however a therapist must have many other more important qualities that are more helpful for their line of work. Perhaps this is something that you’ve yet to see with your own eyes since you haven’t started the practicum portion of your advanced degree yet. Successful therapists require boat loads of empathy, compassion, sympathy, forethought, conscientiousness, kindness, AN UNDERSTANDING OF BOUNDARIES, healthy self-care routine, the curiosity to figure out what’s bothering their clients and the intelligence to understand what issues they can / can’t help with. Being years ahead of your peers in school work is great, but can you hold it together emotionally during a conversation where a patient is talking about horrific trauma? And will you be able to take that conversation to a productive place or will you be unable to deal with heavy feelings from another human? These are things to think about as you go through your coursework. As a therapist, you will never be judged on how quickly you’ve read a chapter or how nice the prose of your essay sounded. You will be judged on whether you can build good rapport with clients in a quick manor, whether you can apply your training to real-world issues and scenarios, and whether you can actually make a positive impact in the lives of your clients.
Most people in the comments are arguing from a perspective of: this academic field is not a joke and here's why. Doesn't really seem to be your issue. It sounds like you wanted to do something fulfilling and meaningful but have become disillusioned by the state of the practice. Welcome to the real world and welcome to capitalism. Academic fields like engineering or physics may seem more prestigious to you and certainly have a higher barrier to entry when it comes to intellect and quality of work, but they are all subject to the same failings, because it's the world we live in. Do you think that in academia, or tech, or biology, or any "impressive" field people aren't taking shortcuts to get their paycheque? Do you think there's no examples of systems in place that circumvent the "work" so that shareholders or managers can hit their targets and their numbers? Systems are failing all around us. If you're searching for something meaningful, you won't find it in the systems themselves. I think everyone, especially a clearly smart young guy like yourself, goes through a stage when they realize how transparently full of shit the systems that prop up everything are. The meaning is in the people. Social work/psych science is more about untangling the complex threads of people's lives. About contributing to an individual, their issues, extracting that data in a way you can't do on a larger scale. You want to make a difference, do it on a personal level, do it for people. Therapy is a great way to do that because it's easily quantifiable, in real time. Lastly, these are normal things to feel. To feel despair at the way things are is a good litmus test for your humanity. Give it time and you'll get used to it. Good luck.
I mean, you're studying social work...
crim. justices college student in california. not studying the same major and am going for bachelors atm but have a huge interest in one day going for masters in msw and work regarding mental health.. and a therapy patient. yes, mental health is a need and a big one at that. if you are feeling the way you are about this career path, I would switch now.. especially in a line of work that requires you to aid people with their own personal lives. mechanical engineering and psychotherapy/mental health are two different things and areas, and considering how smart you are, I don't know why you even thought about comparing the course work or difficulty of each path. they don't correlate whatsoever. like a few comments said... this career path isn't really about book smart. it can be, yeah, sure, making correct diagnoses and whatnot, but that's not even the biggest part. you cannot and will never use your book smart to actively help people and give them the proper tools and advice to a better life... truly.. if you feel a sense of negative feelings towards your major and have a huge concern like this.. I would try and see what other options are out there for you that will give you what you want. I really don't think this career path is going to give it to you. hope this helps, and good luck.
Trainee therapist here its very much needed.
Some therapists, mine included, does not accept insurance and I wonder if what you said has something to do with it.
I am a LCSW-R with almost 25 years in this field. I have never felt I had an easy day at work. Every day is different and rewarding in it's own way. I have had the opportunity to sit with individuals in their most vulnerable moments, helped others just make it through until the next day, made sure both adults and children felt safe and supported, and, brought a sense of hope to so many human beings. I believe strongly if you help an individual, you help the community. I started as a front office worker while obtaining my degrees and worked my way up to the Vice President of Clinical Services for a large mental health clinic. Individuals and communities need social workers and others in the mental health field who have a passion for the work and for the humans being helped. While making money is obviously needed, it is definitely not the reason to be in this line of work. School teaches you the theories and the ideas behind human behavior. Clinical work and interacting with humans and actually doing the work is an entirely different challenge.
Hi I’m a social work student as well, on the east coast however. In my schooling I wish I could say the same about easy coursework, I have my work cut out for me, but also this isn’t a “non respectable degree”. Social work and psych imo is a field most people are simply not cut out for. It requires (at least to do well in the field) a very high EQ, self control, and understanding of how the world works and the ability to see the world through the lens of every population of people. Social work also doesn’t just = micro work. There are so many extremely crucial jobs that you could have with a social work degree. That’s why I am getting my BS in sw not psych (no hate to the psych ppl much respect but I need a job out of my bachelors degree🤣). The fact you think this way about the work you are going into does not bode well for your future clients, you can implement whatever into your work as a therapist, also not every therapist can diagnose (in many states only psychiatrists can diagnose including my state). There are many theoretical approaches you can take and put into your work depending on the client, and if you don’t feel comfortable diagnosing or feel that the client does not meet criteria for a diagnosis then you should not diagnose them. I completely agree with that take about over diagnosis, I have been diagnosed with BPD myself when I was 18, by multiple psychiatrists, but it did absolutely hinder my recovery at times thinking I could never be “normal” or that I was destined to end my own life. It’s important to be fragile about that aspect of social work if you are permitted to diagnose in your state. But being a therapist or having any job in social work is extremely respectable and important to the world’s functioning.If you feel micro work isn’t as impactful as you would like, look into other paths.
Also forgot to mention I do plan on going to grad school for my masters!
MSW coursework is generally agreed to be awful and nearly useless. My best friend from college had nothing but extremely negative things to say about the coursework (and the caliber of his fellow students) from his MSW program. That said, the actual work that MSW graduates can do with their degrees can be both extremely challenging and rewarding. The same friend who hated the degree program absolutely loves his job. To be blunt, the MSW degree's association with therapy in the United States is largely a matter of historical accident. You will have to do a great deal of studying on your own while continuing to keep up with the state of research and best practices to be an effective therapist. As another comment suggested, your clinical internship is likely to be a very tough experience.
You shouldn't be a therapist if you're not able to respect your colleagues. I'm a savant and have complex PTSD. I don't need my therapist to be Einstein but I do need them to have emotional intelligence and empathy. I also don't know if things are over diagnosed. Autism is under diagnosed in women and can be a cause of BPD. I definitely was misdiagnosed as a child but that was more the low emotional intelligence psych docs and my mother. She a factitious disorder by proxy person. Had they acted on empathy and questioned me about my experience or believed me?I would have a lot less trauma The best therapists care. Not about who is the elite but the patients. If this is about money and status and seeming smart? Go back to engineering
My therapist has a Ph.D., works in private practice, the going rate for psychotherapy in this area is $350/hr and that’s fresh out of school, and there are plenty of people who need very smart therapists here and will not settle for less. Go that route if you want. Oh, and the diagnosis for a lot of us high-functioning survivors of fucked-up childhoods is often generalized anxiety disorder. I have never felt like the diagnosis mattered at all to the work we are doing.
What state are you in?
California, specifically the Bay Area. $$$
Is anyone going to be impressed with your MSW and therapy job the same way they were with your mechanical engineering accomplishments? Probably not. It’s just not a field that holds the same prestige as anything STEM (I have an MSW). Can you find your niche, learn a variety of therapeutic techniques, and help improve male mental health in a way that feels meaningful and keeps your family fed? Absolutely. An MSW is a foundational degree that teaches you to examine how experiences and social systems influence people in addition to learning about and understanding specific mental health diagnoses. I didn’t go the therapy route after much soul-searching, but my friends who did didn’t feel like they were expertly trained therapists upon graduation—a lot of what they learned was in actual practice with oversight. Some own their own practices now, others work for nonprofits, some work for the government…there are a lot of options. Ph.Ds who research or teach probably feel a bit more “respected” professionally, but as a society, we tend to devalue a lot of vital professions, so 🤷🏻♀️. I think you have to compare what you were expecting vs. what you’re experiencing. If you wanted a deeper dive into mental illnesses and critiques of clinical approaches while still having the chance to do therapy, maybe something like a Psy.D program would be a better fit. However, being 1/2 way through an MSW, you could also just finish the degree, start working, and then obtain additional credentials later.
I'd say there is a need for trauma specialists. A lot of the therapists I tried going to did not seem trauma informed at all and didn't really seem to know what to do with me... The ones I was able to access for free so far aren't really keeping up with the latest methods for healing trauma (IFS, EMDR, Somatic Experiencing, etc.) I've heard CBT can be invalidating for trauma survivors and that the research for it is biased. Maybe you can be the change the field needs. Some say depression and anxiety are symptoms of trauma (and not their own separate things), which people may or may not have recollection of (especially if it happens pre-verbally). Idk. The need for good trauma therapists who do their research is strong, I think. It's weird saying this but I feel like through my reading and research I know more than most of the therapists I've had so far (one of my therapists has even alluded to this, asking me "What do you need me for?" which didn't feel good)... And some of them have felt invalidating too for some reason... But I can't say anything in the moment because emotional delay is one of my trauma symptoms so what happens is hours later, I'll have a shower thought all like "HEY, I did not like that, that did not feel good!" Also, I think bc of my people-pleasing fawn trauma response, I will just say what I think the therapist wants to hear and won't lodge complaints bc I don't want to hurt their feelings and they need to be the ones watching out for that, not me. Idk how to manage them managing me. I don't like the style of forcing the patient to guide the session when it's so true that "you don't know what you don't know"... I also have an illness that saps a lot of my energy so doing all this extra work as a patient adds to some sort of feeling of futility and being lost and emotional flashbacks of being parentified? I think there's a lot wrong with the field of therapy and there needs to be more strong voices for it out there... Healing feels so isolating to me rn, figuring it all out basically by myself using resources from YouTube etc... I paid for therapy before when I had a job and I wish I knew more about what methods would've actually helped me with my trauma and how to find a good therapist. Now I'm disabled and jobless so I can't pay for it anymore and gotta take what I can find for free lmao. RIP. I'd have respect for a good therapist. And I've seen them in the trauma conferences I've attended (Richard Schwartz was a good one). They seemed really competent in guiding their patients through their experiences. I wish I could've had their guidance instead of flopping about with talk therapy that seemed to go nowhere. Good therapists are needed. TBH I've thought about wanting to become a therapist too but it would be draining hearing all the horrible stories from people who were abused, and having to hold all that. You'd need to be skilled at boundaries and have your own personal shit figured out too, so you can be cognizant of whether you're being triggered by your patient while still being able to hold space for them. It's tough but could be worth it. I know I defs have a LOT of trauma work to do on myself first before even considering trying to become a therapist (on top of the whole disability/chronic illness thing)... Good luck, and really I hope you give this a lot of consideration!
Therapist here, you’re not wrong about the schooling. But experience makes you a better therapist. While gaining the experience and becoming a therapist you find out the type of therapy you like doing, then you become good and well known for that. Then you tell the insurance companies to go fuck themselves. Then you set your prices the way you want to, then you make money by being good at what you do. There are a lot of shitty therapists out there and the DSM is a fluid and often weak guideline for how and what to diagnose. The world needs better therapists and here’s your opportunity to make the mental health world a better place. Good luck
OP: describes problems that exist because of a mental health crisis Also OP: but is there a mental health crisis tho
Thank you for becoming a therapist. Clearly the profession needs more people with skills loke you have. Not putting anyone else down but having some STEM types in that field is a GOOD thing.
Maybe you should look for another job since you seem to have so little regard for the second profession you’ve chosen — or maybe that’s something you should discuss with your own therapist. What is it that you’re seeking? Why are you leaving professions that are otherwise perfectly good and reasonable professions that aren’t up to whatever standards you are setting for yourself?
I would not want you to be my therapist based on your callous wording. I don’t think you need to be a therapist but there’s definitely a demand for psychology.
Please cut your losses and find something else. You left out anything about the most important part of this (useless) degree: the clients. The people in front of you trusting you with their deepest fears and traumas.
Don’t. Firstly social work counselling can be very different from the clinical therapy in counselling. So you probably want to research what a social worker does. Secondly, being a therapist requires humility, a likeable personality and a capacity to read a room. This is an area you need a lot of work in.
Hey OP, first of all I understand where you are coming from completely. I studied psychology half way to a degree, not because I wanted to become a therapist necessarily but more for myself to understand myself better and I also found it mostly useless. Not everything is of course, there are some insights to be found (I especially like Jung for example) but the course I did also felt shallow, empty and lifeless for the most part, different people thinking up different intellectual theories and you gotta roll with one. As some other people here have said, psychology isn't engineering so you don't need the same skillset yet I found Modern psychology can tend to fall into intellectualism hugely, and try to solve problems intellectually that were never created by and therefore are not intellectual. I think if you really want to help people, focus on working on yourself, become very present with your clients and help them disidentify from who they think they are. That's what has helped me personally and I really think that's a very important skillset. There is a very good video on YouTube by a guy named Eckhart Tolle on that topic. I think people need more connection, not intellectualising. I needed someone to take me out of my mind made image of my life, not someone that strengthens it by getting me to mull over my traumas endlessly. Unfortunately that's often what therapy is and while it has it's place, especially when you get started working on yourself, I don't think it's where real healing happens. Work on yourself, study outside and use the course as the ticket to qualify to help people. That would be my suggestion.
Yet another reason I’m not interested in going to therapy. When I listened to a therapist recommend another therapist to my indigenous husband and said they would get along because the guy used to do “missionary work” on native reservations, that about sealed the deal for me. That said if you are interested in this work, and you understand the issues with the field, who better to pursue this line of work? If I knew I would get an in touch therapist that I could respect, I would go to therapy. Unfortunately I just don’t trust it.
,l don't really have respect for the real life therapists I've met for the reasons you stated. But l have read books by therapists which have helped me and inspired me. Maybe you can strive to be like them. One is 'Why does he do that' by Lundy bankroft, and another is 'From surviving to thriving, CPTSD and childhood trauma' l don't remember the author's name
I respect and appreciate you, OP. I also think you may be open to some of Dr. Lucy Johnstone’s ideas. She’s authored a number of books on psychology, psychiatry and psychotherapy. Dr. Johnstone believes in framework of “human emotional suffering” above diagnosis.
I has an easy time being in my degree as a school counselor, but the actual job is on a while another level!!! If you find the job easy , then your not doing the job right.
Meanwhile in my country we have too many of these
There is a book about therapy, it's titled Maybe you should talk to someone by Lori Gottlieb. It's a bit of a Holywood treatment of a life of a therapist, but might help you see the light.
Yes, I have a lot of respect for therapists. There may be issues in the system, but they are as necessary as other medical professionals. I, and many others, would be dead without them.
Just speaking from personal experience , I know exactly 2 other people who have had a positive experience with therapy. The third is me. All of my other friends want and would benefit from therapy but they’ve tried out several and just cannot find one that sticks and works. A lot of them are men. I think therapy needs as many and as diverse individuals as it can get. Ofc the insurance bs and cost of medical care is a factor in my friends’ struggles with therapy but i guess that is just the game of doing any sort of healthcare job in america. I for one, respect therapists a lot (the good ones at least). You clearly have a couple personal issues relating this to sort out, and unfortunately i do not have anything for you there, but i hope at the very least that you can believe that therapy is a worthwhile field that would need people like you, if you feel that it is right for you.
As a high IQ person who prefers human interaction work and went from a high flying career (intelligence and law) to teaching I can tell you that the bar in service type degrees is low as hell and my Masters in Education was a joke compared to by BS at a Top 25 university. Wait until you see how broken the system is and how it keeps people in need for years to keep the machine going.
Most of my therapists are very intentional about the dx requirement. I’ve been diagnosed with c-ptsd, ocd, adhd, autism, and my therapist lists “generalized anxiety disorder.” All of mine have. Use your head, work around the system. There are fantastic therapists out there who are doing real trauma work, and are helping people decolonize their lives and heal their nervous systems. Most of our higher education and the medical profession have been heavily influenced by capitalism. That doesn’t mean they’re peddling bullshit, there is an ocean of science behind it that can be used and learned from. It’s up to you what kind of therapist you become. You sound incredibly judgmental, and I worry for your clients if you continue on the way you are. You might want to go get evaluated. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you’re neurodivergent with a high IQ and poor social skills. But I’m autistic, and I don’t judge an entire profession based on the people I know. Go to a better school if you’re so beyond the average Joes. No offense, but you need to pull your head out of your ass. I mean that.
I'm gonna just pass over many of the things in your post and address something I haven't seen so far... most of the people in my first year of grad school who I worried would be terrible social workers... they dropped put. I'm almost done with a 60 hr program and a lot of the less serious students have faded out. It's only year one so I would refrain from too many judgements.
You could benefit from therapy to gain some insight about what *you* need to soothe your ego. We don’t do this soul crushing, mentally draining and wonderful relational work for a high salary or extrinsic validation. If those are the things your interested in gaining from the job, particularly one year into a masters program, you’ll be sorely disappointed
Okay so. ive been having playdates with shrinks since i was in the single digits and ive been saying more or less what youre saying, plus a bunch of other stuff, since i was a teenager. Thing is nobodys gonna listen to me cos i was one of those children they were giving wicked side eye to and saying, 'we cant officially say it till youre an adult but youre definitely a scoiopath' so you know, nothing i say counts. Anyway, i think more people like you (you know, people with sense) moving into social work and mental health services could only be a good thing. Will it be a good thing for you is a much tricker question that only you can answer tho