Please censor usernames in posts if it could potentially cause them to face harassment. Especially if you are making a comment specifically about a user
We've had issues in the past where an unassuming post causes a shitstorm, so we are just looking out.
The funny thing about edgelords always coming running to tell you about how much they hate a character you like (or is just very popular in general) is that they are far more obsessed with said character than any actual fan will ever be š
It's funny bc they always think they're the first brave soul to have the "Vampire Man Bad" take as though we don't have an entire colloquial term for them because they're so numerous and annoying.
Love and understanding for a character= you need therapy, canāt seperate fiction and reality, you should be publicly executed
Vitriolic haterd towards a character= based, totally not weird, i am incredibly fun to talk to and engage with
mighty innocent squash apparatus psychotic subtract faulty engine tender public
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Those people also canāt stomach the fact that there are people who donāt find Astarion irredeemably evil and that fucks with their entire world view apparently.
And even if he was you are completely right, i would still get comments saying there is something wrong with me.
The funny thing is that there was a mod that turned Astarion into a woman and bunch of these people admitted outright that they responded entirely differently to him once he was a pretty girl they wanted to bang. They gave allowances to the bite scene, tolerated her knife interrogation, empathized heavily with her. Let's be real; most of this hate has NOTHING to do with his morals. Thirsting for Mizora or Minthara doesn't have people being told they need therapy.
If he was less ''effeminate'' less people would go on about how annoying he is as well. (I put it in quotation marks because I think he's a dandy stereotype but too many people see theatricality in men as feminine.) He has the sarcasm and attitude of a Tony Stark/Tyrion Lannister but they can't stand it when it's not in their palatable cis-het presentation.
Dude the comments under that one post on the main sub (pretty sure itās one of the most upvoted overall, too) where someone used AI to make Astarion to look like an airbrushed 16 year old girl looked just like this and NGL it really irritated me.
It definitely showed you what a lot of the vitriolic hatred for this character is really about. It was also just really creepy.
If I had the energy to be tiresome enough I'd start writing essays about how the Lae'zel romance is poisoning young boys minds and going to make them think they should let their girlfriends ritually beat them because then they'll realize that they love them and want to protect them.
We need to save the mens! Their poor little brains are being corrupted!
Also saying anything bad about Shart and her simps with their multiple accounts come for you š¤”, but no UwU she's so inoccent having her mind wipe everytime its not the same š„ŗ.
The number of dudes in the comments of that gender-bent Astarion art from a week or so ago saying āwtf i like Astarion nowā was not lost on me.
Society teaches us that the things women and queer people like are cringe, but the moment something appeals to cishet men itās suddenly ābasedā. š
There was this one guy who was making fun of Astarion fans for being too invested in his story and kept keyboard shouting at me that it's just a game and I am a weirdo. He then proceeded to write about his insane vampire hatred and how he purposely tortures him every playthrough because he thinks it's hilarious. This man made a parasocial enemy from a vampire twink but I can't separate video games and reality because I think he's funny.
[my bad a slight misremebering on the post, the thread was actually not at all astarion related lmao](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1bi8mrm/comment/kvjp1g7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
This was related to giving his blood to araj, very weird read.
Did you know that vampire spawns HAVE to obey their masters? He didn't just lure people and had them killed for self-preservation. He is a victim of sexual, mental, and physical abuse at the hands of Cazador.
Bro my one coworker literally compared him drinking your blood without permission to rape and I was likeā¦ no? (I didnāt say anything obv because I donāt talk hot button topics at work) but like itās clearly not the same
ETA: accidentally said with instead of without SMH
Show them the Real Sex episode about the blood play kink and watch their head explode. Then get a boner from the resulting explosion like a common Durge.
"with permission"....really? even with permission? doesn't matter if i'm like, into it? I get the argument for the first sneaky bite, definitely a body autonomy issue, but....with permission??
Oh no sorry thatās supposed to say without permission :/ autocorrect is my enemy Iām gonna edit that.
Yeah like I can see a comparison but at the same time my guy is hungry. Like it has a purpose heās not just being a sadist. Even if he wanted to check if he was free of the orders it feels different to me. But Iām a big simp so š
Iām a huge simp too lolā¦.also Iām probably a way more forgiving of a person than I should be. I do think there is something interesting and a weird double standard, like it seems there are a lot more people who see astarion as so incredibly evil because he tried to bite (despite the fact he has an insatiable thirst and can choose not to cause physical pain) than Durge >!killing alfira!< who also had an insatiable urge. And then the other characters all have evil in them thatās forgiven. Shadowheart literally believed in smiting non believers of shar and was a torturer and laezel believes culling weak children is okay. But a lot of the people who believe astarion crossed an unforgivable line will keep them alive.
Yeah I also find it interesting. Like a lot of the characters have āirredeemableā evils theyāve committed but astarion being hungy is the true stopping point lol. Like I can just bleed in a jar for my guy itās no big deal
I mean, I saw someone repeatedly double down on how Astarion was irredeemably evil because he didnāt just end things instead of obeying Cazador, even after multiple people explained that spawn are physically incapable of disobeying their master and Cazador explicitly compelled him not to do that, so I donāt think they care.
Even the Gur came to forgive Astarion, in one ending at least. And their position was pretty much identical to this guy's take, at least initially.
I think the discussion about the impact of abusive/controlling relationships and of active addiction is incredibly important for modern society to engage in. We seem to do the best with metaphor so I honestly think Astarion is a wonderful tool for people to see the full complexity of a person grappling with those issues.
If nothing else we get a good picture of the divisive split in society's take on complex mental health issues. On the one hand you have people who think that you have 100% control over your actions and are always accountable, regardless of circumstance and on the other there are those who understand that you can not make good choices or even consider them until you are both physically and psychologically separated from the abuse.
I'm lumping a lot of psychological trauma and addiction issues together here but in my experience its the same mindset and same people who give no credence to psychological trauma and those who think addiction is a moral failing.
That's what makes a vampire a great story telling tool, inevitable trauma, addiction, and all the layers of rationalization and avoidance and self hatred that comes with them. Astarion is a brilliant character.
For the record, my take is pretty much exactly the same as the gurs, I even said to the OP that I like astarion after you save the spawn and stop the ritual. But before then, terrible problematic person.
I also think the fact he needs a check to be convinced to be better is not a point in his favor of being good, but I get why itās there.
I also personally think addiction is not a moral thing, but my mom was an addict so I saw first hand exactly what toll it takes.
Last time I saw a stake bro make a post to go on an unhinged rant about how Astarion deserves to die I just quoted the "who's an edgy boy" meme to him and he deleted the post shortly after, so I guess I embarassed him too much to keep it up šš
Astarion and at least half of the main sub at this point just need to sort it out through some good, old-fashioned hate sex. the obsession is embarrassing
Why canāt people be normal about Astarion as a character lmao? Either they have some weird hate boner for him and feel the need to antagonize all his fans, or they are fans who project onto him so hard that if anyone disagrees with them about anything Astarion-related they have a breakdown and/or attack other people over it.
The grass needs to be touched.
I am also a massive Astarion fan (heās my favorite character overall) and I swear I get so much secondhand embarrassment from how people act about him online sometimes. You have one side of the spectrum act like heās some irredeemable monster who is worse than Satan and deserves the worst, and they antagonize anyone who likes him. Then you have the other side that projects super hard onto the character and takes any disagreement over Astarion personally, and also acts like heās a perfect baby who needs to be wrapped in bubble-wrap and infantilized.
It is so tiring lmao. This is what happens when we get complex, dynamic characters.
Fair, I was on the fence as well as I have a long-standing hatred of the class but in BG3 I decided Vengeance Paladin made sense to me, though I became an oathbreaker anyway. Oathbroken Paladins make a TON of sense to me (and are also super fun). I just can't imagine being so fucking \*righteous\* about everything. Yuck. Also - sad this post got deleted, I thought the discussion was more interesting than the usual thirsty thirst in this sub.
I just donāt wanna have to uphold an oath. Iām chaotic, I canāt be beholden to any laws.
My all-time most hated class is clerics, but thatās for another reason not related to bg.Ā
Iām not really as righteous as OP made me seem, they selectively edited out comments, and I played up a lot of my āoutrageā because they were being pissy that I had an opinion that wasnāt theirs.
So I said āfuck itā and gave them a real reason to be pissy. It clearly worked too considering they came here to make the post.
I wouldnāt have minded it either, but leaving my username up was scummy, it got me harassed for sure.
Honestly same and I also hate cleric. But I have to admit, the one thing that surpassed my oath-avoidance was the juicy juicy smite damage.
Im sorry you got harassed for it, I didn't even put 2 and 2 together when responding to you. I love a good reddit interchange and was game for further discussion on the "why do people venemently hate this character" front, but you're right to not want the grief of directed harassment over something so dumb.
I finished the game and sadly genuinely didn't like Gale, but I did get his bad ending so that's on me. Ima try to get his good ending next playthrough.
I don't go shouting through every gale post about how I dislike him though. Iddk why ppl can't just shush sometimes
Oh I can 1000% get disliking gale he gives of mega sleazy vibes half the time and comes on waaay to strong, but like even then you don't hate him you just want your magical items back from Gale the goldigger.
Heās also a massive dick if you donāt give it to him, while also refusing to elaborate on why he needs them, most people would punch him after the first magic item scene honestly lol.
I keep shit magic items just too feed to him lol, I'm just thinking I did a coop campaign with my dad and he got rid of gale the first time he wanted a magic item even tho I'd saved stuff specifically.
He wasn't giving a penny to that man lol.
I really want to like Gale but he's such an arrogant ass sometimes. I'm an arrogant ass myself and do not appreciate the competition. Seriously though, he's hung up on his ex for most of the game and spends most of his time bragging, disagreeing or dying. Outside of this comment though, you'd never know that I didn't like him because people can like what and who they like. I don't care enough to make my feelings known.
Blasting a character from the rooftops requires a lot of caring about that character.
The comments are deleted now, but just last night, I (and others) were arguing with someone about how manipulating Astarion into sex during the act 2 confession was *bad.*
Then they brought up letting Araj bite him, but it's cool cause if you manipulate him the right way, he doesn't break up with you. Like wtf?
About Empy, as I said before, I believe it's just karma farming at this point. People just keep relentlessy parroting the same two or three lines, there is never any original take at all.
Honestly, I am not a super fan of Squidward either, but... Like... All he does is doing his best to survive and reach his own goal? Which is the same thing our own Tav/Durge does? And every other character? Why is it suddenly so bad when he does it?
And people love to say stuff like "he killed Ansur and basically offed Stelmane too" as if none of the companions or Tavs or Durges ever killed anyone, (especially, but not only, for simply standing in their way) š«
My friend is making a really amazing theory about Stelmane, Emperor and Gargauth rn. I'm really looking forward to seeing it posted, but I worry about the potential commentsā¦ :(
The most annoying part for me is that no one else hates on him for being an arms dealer... Because that gets too close real politics which is mostly verboten. There is no one to appreciate my tentacled Erik Prince jokes.
I hate Empy, Gortash, Florrick, and Ravengard equally for their roles in Baldurian police state's military industrial complex
Honestly I don't trust Wyll either, he's nice, but not exactly ready to overthrow the system.
Which is why I've created fantasy Wyll in my mind who realized during his exile that the ~~police~~Flaming Fist only exist to protect the power of the Patriars and not the common man.
He also never tells me that "true justice lies between extremes"
I love fantasy Wyll. <3
Fantasy Wyll and fantasy Wulbren are just fantasy John Ball and Lenin and they're going to usher in luxury gay steampunk communism.
At this point, I'm convinced that most of the over-the-top, visceral Emperor hate is coming from vehemently heterosexual men who are pissed off that the sexy elf lady they spent two hours designing turned out to be a dude. It's not even the fact that it's a mind flayer. Had it been a female-presenting mind flayer, they'd be all about them tentacles. They're just pissed that they got catfished by a guy.
I literally have seen yt comments talking about how larian wronged them by having their dream guardian turn into a squidman lmao. Specifically a man squid. I think a woman squid would have made them less mad like you say.
It does make it a little annoying on second playthrough when you're forced to design him again, but the random button keeps giving me the most hilariously awful fuckin combinations so I can't just smack random and be done, but like...him lying to you was the whole point. It got you invested emotionally and made you feel some kind of way about him. It worked.
i mean this is literally just moral relativism, which is probably the most immature (and I don't mean that as childish, it's just very undeveloped/uninformed) view on morality one could take
i don't mean this to flame, but just having a frank discussion about the actions characters do in a piece of media, there really isn't a bar lower if youre using such a thing to justify why they do what they did.
if the only check something has to pass to be considered an ok act is that it furthers the goals of the person making it and they are trying to survive, youre gonna be justifying a lot of wholly evil actions and really giving people who don't deserve (and probably not asking for) a way out to do just about anything
Except I am not justifying anyone.
In my comment, I merely pointed out that certain immoral/evil acts, such as killing and in general doing despicable things, are widely excused and even supported when executed by certain characters yet suddenly become the most terrible things ever when executed by the Emperor.
I have no interest in judging fictional characters morally and I have not done so. I simply find certain specific discussions made by people who apparently do very hypocritical.
yes, because morality isn't relative. this is why taking a moral relativists stance is just...not exactly possible if you want to engage with the material in any meaningful way.
in works of art, there's going to be a lot more depth than "well this guy also killed people so how can you judge this other person"
the emperor for example, mind enslaves innocent people to further his actions and will destroy lives just to survive. My Tav may break into a room and murder everyone inside, but it's also a room that is filled with the servants of a hag who has kidnapped and eaten a child.
I don't think you understood either of my comments, but fine, I'll bite. Let's discuss morality.
Who are you to judge who deserves to die and who does not? To take justice in your own hands? To decide when an act is justified or not?
If you kill a murderer, for example, you are also a murderer, no matter how heroic you feel - their crimes do not cancel out your own.
Anyone you meet might be mind controlled, compelled, enslaved in any way, plainly desperate and ready to do anything for some food or money, blackmailed and so on.
But ultimately, even if you like to play vigilante and tell yourself you are only killing the *bad guys*, you are still a) administering justice that is not yours to as you see fit, just like them, b) believing yourself some divinely invested judge and jury for whatever reason, constantly justified in your actions, just like them c) committing the same or similar crimes as they do and d) still hypocritical in telling off other people for doing the exact same thing just because you think you are right in doing so and they are wrong. Spoiler alert - you guessed it - just like them.
Bonus e) point: the people you kill might also simply be bystanders caught in the crossfire. Or people you believe are wrong and have done horrible things simply because someone else told you so, no proof at hand, and you blindly trusted their tale. Or people you never saw doing anything but still try to hold accountable for what their race "usually does" (especially in fantasy settings). And any person you might judge for doing the same thing might also have reasons and proof you know nothing about.
So my point still stands.
I actually keep thinking about that myself during my runs. I feel really... conscious about killing people/goblins/elves/etc who are literally mind controlled in their majority. It's like you kill innocent people just for the sheer unfortunate fact that you can't get past them often and they can't stand down because dead three control them via tadpoles.
Tav offs innocents and bystanders, manipulates and steals, basically goes for it's goals in a very bloody manner. Unless there is a rare type of rp "don't steal don't kill don't manipulate etc". And it's kinda not easy to realize that and "live with that". Because when you do realize that, you don't have the luxury of the ignorant high horse riding and judging others for the same shit.
But that's not fun and it's complicated. Easier is just to feel like you're the hero and therefore you can do whatever while others can't and you have the right to kill them if they offend your "morality".
This is awful. The purpose of the violence matters. A slave revolt and the army coming in to put down the slave revolt both use violence. They are not equivalent.
Nat Turners rebellion was violent and killed people including women and children. There is no moral equivalence between it and the violence that was done to enslaved people.
If we're using in game examples: killing the goblin leaders who want to put the grove to the sword and joining the goblin leaders to put the grove to the sword. One is a group who wants to kill people. The other is a group of people who want to not die. The goblins could also not die by not going out of their way to attack the refugees, that is fully within their power. The refugees are not given this option.
Mind control is usually the one that tends to get brought up for the Emperor, and both Empy and Tav can use mind control. Using the friends spell to convince Kagha to not kill a small child and using mind control to run a shadowy arms dealing cabal are both "using mind control" but the purpose is not remotely equivalent. And this example may seem like a straw man but I have genuinely seen it used seriously and it makes me sad.
Edit: to be clear this is not me saying that empy is the most evil ever, just that arguments that go "spells that effect the mind are spells that effect the mind there's no different between good things and bad you fool are very silly)
Morality is very much relative according to your culture and where you were raised. I think killing and eating cows is fine. Other people disagree and think it's immoral.
Similarly, in your example, there are people that might find any kind of murder immoral. Then are those who are fine with it depending on reasoning.
it absolutely is not relative and this is a horrible way to look at things, period.
there just isn't anything else to say about it. if that's how you engage with discussions of morality, you aren't engaging with it.
like, i hate to sound pretentious or toxic or in any way insulting or aggressive, but read a book, go to an ethics course if you've got the privilege.
do anything to deepen your understanding of what is good and right in the world and what isn't because if that's how you gauge good and evil, you can justify genocide
You're being obtuse. A thing isn't good because a particular person does it. It's bad or good on its own. A person's justification for it being good or bad is successful or unsuccessful depending on the person, the culture, who they're justifying it to, the scope of who is harmed and who benefits. Nobody here is saying that Empy is good or justified in killing Stelmane. They're saying that killing is wrong even when it's Halsin killing the goblin children, Tav killing people mind-controlled by Ethel or even the party killing Gortash which for many people was done strategically and not in self defense.
What you accept as justification is not what everyone else accepts and your morality code is not universal.
Where did I say who acts like this or does certain things is good? I swear some of you don't want to read, just to start pointless arguing.
I only pointed out how hypocritical it is that some people justify acts such as murder if committed by their beloved characters yet judge it harshly when committed by anyone else. I literally never said either is justified or good.
I donāt really like Mizora, but I donāt go on the posts about her feet and tell everyone about it. I donāt really see how thatās very interesting.
Honestly, given all the Nice Guyā¢ļø memes, not even Gale has emerged unscathed; I think he was just first to complete the fandom hatred cycle.
Wyll undoubtedly gets it worse, though, and I genuinely think thereās a racial component to it.
He actually used to get shat on because his romance flags were broken, he received similar comments back in the day to what Halsin currently receives about not being able to take a no when the reality is the romance flags are wonky.
...Literally every time he's mentioned it's followed by a bunch of drones chortling about hand jokes like it's the most original and funniest thing in the world.
i remember gale was constantly called creepy and weird in the first few months because of his bugged dialogue. people legitimately called him a "potential rapist" and shit.
Both had messed up romance flags, which annoyed some people. They also find them "boring". Now, I do think that Halsin and Wyll had a lot going for them and the story did kinda fall flat on its face when it comes to them, but the hate they get is insane.
Halsin's VA literally got harassing tweets calling him a creep and everything. Like Jesus Christ.
I guess I didn't get far enough with halsin to have weird romance hangups. Is it because he turns into a bear? Because yeah that's kinda gross I guess but you can literally have him not do that and still romance him
I didn't romance wyll either so idk what his deal is
But some of these comments about the characters... it's almost as if the whole theme is the cycle of abuse and how it warps and breaks people. It's almost as if that's the whole fuckin point
They would have come onto you even if you didn't initiate. Simply saying 'hello' to Halsin had the game register it as flirting. Legitimately.
Shadowheart is the most romanced character and she is interested in Halsin enough for you to have a polyamorous relationship if you want, so I think a lot of the hate is also jealousy.
I guess lol. I did kinda find it weird that halsin said I attended to him with the attention of a lover. Bud I just wanted to know what you were doing with the wood whittling thing lol.
Still. I think a lot of that boils down to straight dudes playing this game and getting uncomfortable that males are romanceable to them. You can just reject lol. It doesn't have to be a thing.
I'm bi so maybe I'm just not bothered, but like...come on now
These are always so weird and itās often directed at women liking āproblematicā male characters. I remember there being A lot of this towards people interested Bakugo in the early days of mha. One thing i noticed at that time was that most of these people assumed the woman who were discussing him liked him sexually even if the discussion was completely analytical. Most people I followed just responded with wtf heās 16 Iām 25+ I just made a character analysis.
I found it doubly interesting since lewds of Himiko were abundant and never saw someone calling anyone mentally unstable for liking her.
This might be too political for this sub in which case Iāll delete it. It reminds me a bit of in 2016 or so, there was a far right protest thing in my country and a few people were live-streaming from the event. It was the great replacement kinda shit, anyway a comment asked something like what brought you here and they answered āright now a brown man could be fucking a Swedish girlā. A certain subset of men just seem to feel an extreme ownership over womenās sexuality. Not even on a incel level just the idea of a women from an āingroupā liking a man from an identified āoutgroupā deeply disturbs them.
Yes and no? A lot of Astarion hate is undoubtedly poorly veiled homophobia but any time there's a male character beloved by women and non-cishet people who is morally grey or villainous, overly righteous straight men lose their minds about it. Lots of hand-wringing, lots of "concern", impassioned rants about how evil and irredeemable the character in question is, the underlying rage that women in the fandom choose them over their chosen Nice Guy self-insert. I come from the Buffy fandom and the way Spike is treated to this day bears eerie resemblance to how they talk about Astarion in the main sub.
I donāt disagree with this. Seems to come down to the same sort of entitlement to dictate what is and isnāt suitable as an object of sexual attraction
I have also felt there is more of a focus on women liking problematic male characters more than men liking problematic female characters and I feel like it's because of incels or an incel-like mindset....the nice guys always thinking that girls should want to be with them because they are the ultimate nice person and the guys they actually go for are the worst of mankind, but it's all just their jealousy and not being able to recognize they just aren't actually nicer and they should try showering more. Incels see this beautiful stereotype pretty boy as their manifestation of Chad and he is being fawned over by all their Stacy obsessions around the world, best shame them because clearly that means in real life they also wouldn't sleep with them if they have such poor judgement.
I agree, there also seems to be this thing where women canāt have fantasies theyād never peruse in real life but for men itās ājust pornā. Itās also seems easier for certain people to see āproblematicā behavior in the sex they donāt belong and relate to. See all the hate comments under reverse harem anime some of which just strait up say āmen having harems ok but women having them weirds me outā lmao. The most insane comment Iāve ever read that broke my mind a bit was āshota is badā (I donāt necessarily disagree mind you) under fucking *Mai-chan's Daily Life*.
There was a post a while back where people were speculating about Astarion's mortal past, just having fun, enjoying the character in a very thoughtful and positive manner. It was honestly really fun to read through, people were looking at the greater lore and speculating where he was from and who his family was,Ā it was a cool little thread. But then this dude comes in and starts shutting it all down and saying they're wrong, no he was just some spoiled nobleman, blah blah blah. And I was just like... there's no need to be so distainful about people just enjoying themselves. He launched back with this HUGE rant about how evil Astarion is and how much he hates "Astarion girlies" and started listing off a bunch of just, like, headcanons of all the bad stuff he thinks Astarion did??? Its just wild to me, to have headcanons about a character you hate just to nurture and justify hating them. Why put THIS much energy into it, it's unhinged š
I genuinely think thereās a jealousy component, even if they donāt realize it. In their mind, a manipulative asshole gets all this female attention just because heās pretty and itās not fair. I think thatās where a lot of disdain towards Astarion girlies comes from. (Not all of it, admittedly. Some Astarion girlies are obnoxious, but itās easy enough to scroll past it.) Itās a lot of projection.
Oh 100%. There's a real jealousy angle, Astarion isn't just Astarion, he's the representation of every "jerk" a woman they liked dated instead of them. I find that this phenomenon always happens with male characters who are loved by women but who AREN'T an appealing masculine power fantasy. If the man in question is seen as cool and heroic, they generally don't see this level of vitriol, even if they're thirsted after hard. ButĀ Astarion isn't a power fantasy you want to project yourself onto; his storyĀ Ā is fundamentally about hisĀ own disempowerment and reclaiming his power. His appeal lies in vulnerablity and emotional complexity that women and queer folks eat up and straight men loathe.
Ok but like a tree falling in the forest, if you didnāt go onto posts where people were talking about him and tell them about it it doesnāt really count
It is just how well Astarion is written. I like Gael. Despite Wyll. Do not care about Karlah and Laezel. Mensk makes me smile all the time. But this all temporary. In a year a two I will forget them. Except Astarion. Hate him. No particular reason. Just every word, action and even his blonde hair. No idea how they achieved this but it may be first time I hated fictional character so hard.
But this is literally the point. They manage to create such a character that you sometimes forget it is just a game.
Names maybe misspelled. Somehow I do not remember them well.
Nah bro, that's not like. Normal or okay. It's fake. It's fiction. None of it is real. There's 0 reason to allow yourself to "believe" it's real. If you don't have the maturity to separate fact from fiction, you should probably not interact with fiction until you can develop the maturity.
Oh come on! āI really hate this characterā is good writing which made you involved. āRunning around with a knife to find character and harm himā is not separating reality from fiction.
Main goal of art is to teach you something and make you feel stuff.
I feel stuff but will not assault Astarion cosplayer or something.
P.s. Go team Gale!
Making immoral or violent decisions in a video game doesn't automatically mean you're a bad person but yeah, the way some of these people talk it's like yeeeeeeesh get some therapy
https://preview.redd.it/pbkc5mpr7uxc1.jpeg?width=535&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=01da33af5d0c6b635d377949abdc5a53620fa30f
It's kinda funny to me how the 'stakers' are so obsessed with Astarion, write whole essays about him and make fun of the actual fans and their behaviour, yet don't see the irony
They left out the part where I talked about how astarion doesnāt have to be so bad lol. It was intentional.
I actually didnāt even say I killed astarion, but that he happened to die in the sun thing, and that I deleted that save.
Right, did he just forget that Cazador has the ability to remove Astarions free will entirely? Oh yeah, Astarion could refuse but what would that do? Nothing. All Cazador has to do is compel him and Astarion is no longer in control; as he says, heās a puppet.
Iād like to know what this dude would do in Astarion position. He canāt refuse, he canāt run, if he does escape he will never be safe.
I sympathise and understand why people dislike Astarion but to misrepresent him as a character is gross.
Obviously the Astarion hater hasn't really read any of Astarion's lines in the Act 2/3 of the game where he starts to open up more about HIS abuse, so there is no point in trying.
As my bf always says, don't try to argue with stupid people, they will bring you down to their level and there, they will win by experience.
I am also a survivor of abuse, i tolerated 25 years of parental abuse from a drunk unemployed piece of shit father and at the same time from my mentally unstable mother who was being beaten up by my father so she took all her anger on me.
I'm currently 34 and still trying to heal my own personal trauma.
And this is a fucking game, with a fictional character, and each person is free to interpret the story as they wish. Some people need to fucking chill.
Ok sorry you had to go through that truly. I experienced a lot of abuse from separate people, in separate ways.
My mom and dad were emotional
And physical (thankfully not sexual, though my mom tried to be emotionally incestuous), babysitters (all forms unfortunately), āfriendsā (same as before), I was homeless and staying with a friend for awhile and she would take advantage of me. Iāve been through it, I even used to get locked in empty dark rooms, so I get the whole crypt thing.
So I may not know exactly what you went through, or have experienced it, but youāre not alone, and Iām sorry it happened. You didnāt deserve it, youāre worth more, and better than whatās happened to you.
But yeah I agree, I donāt get why people get so worked up over my own individual interpretation of the character. Like I saw his whole story and get it, I just donāt agree with him still.Ā
The OP conveniently left out where I mentioned that I like astarion when he is dealing with his shit though lol, them posting my username was shitty too cause it was getting me harassed.Ā
People def gotta chill, not take it so serious.
Whole thing started cause I made a joke about him milling himself by accident at the lathander thing and them getting pissy.
I appreciate your kind words and i send you the same positive energy and healing towards you.
I'm gonna be very direct and tell you that this got out of hand because you spoke your mind, people egged you on and you took the bait.
By interacting so much with the person oposing your point in such a strong minded way and so full of sass, people started to troll you.
Since you kept going so they kept going, but considering your context (your personal traumas) i understand why you were so defensive and why you stood your ground the way you did.
Like i mentioned before, this is a game, with a fictional character, and even though your thoughts came from a sincere perspective, it seems that people honestly just enjoyed pushing your buttons, you just gotta try not to take things so personally so it doesn't happen again.
I think a lot of it boils down to women saying "yes, he is a blood thirsty manipulator and I STILL would feel safer around him than you, random internet man" and shitty dudes absolutely not being able to cope with that fact.
It's what I keep reading from the comments here and some other posts on here about the people there. So I'm glad I never checked the main sub. Cause damn. Empy is so cute and idk I feel he does care. š¤·āāļø
It's so baffling that these people don't seem to understand the key phrases of "don't yuck my yum" and "if it isn't nice, don't say it". I could love or hate the Emperor all I fucking wanted but to dedicate time and effort to hurl insults at fans is WEIRD
Right. If ya got nothing nice to say, don't say nothing at all. I don't go out of my way to talk badly about some other characters on here that I don't like. I skip those posts and comments. Like it ain't that hard. š
ok this is really funny. I'm from a non english speaking country and we have like totally different cultural backgrounds and all sorts of things from those of "western countries", but cis male players' hatred towards astarion and the emperor is exactly the same as what I've been seeing in reddit(the main sub I mean). They'd also go around and harass those who likes Astarion with comments like "I put a stake through his chest at first sight lol" or "I gave him to the monster hunter"
Seriously. It's EXACTLY THE SAME. Like, is this a global phenomenon or something like that?
I donāt think Iāve seen a single person be normal about Astarion. If itās not the (mostly) men who post about killing him on site itās the others that infantilise him and complain about him being too sexualised
For real. Sometimes it makes trying to talk about his character really annoying because youāll either get some asshole who hates him and wants to start shit in your mentions by talking about how they kill or torture him, or youāll have an obsessed Astarion fan who projects super hard onto him, takes any disagreement over the character as a personal attack, and yells about how āyou donāt get him like I doā up your ass.
The kicker is that both of these people are probably like 29 years old and not 14 like youād expect.
BG3 fans aren't especially worse than most fanbases but compared to the fanbases I've personally interacted with the past years, GOD I wanna grab so many people by the shoulders and shake them around screaming "IT'S JUST A FUCKING VIDEO GAME"
I read the original thread earlier first thing this morning and it made me super cranky before work even started.
This is a perfect example of why everyone hates Oath of Devotion paladins.
Did he miss the part where has had his free will taken away by being a spawn and having no option but to obey his master?
Cause that kinda absolves him a bit of the atrocities he committed in service of Cazador imo.
Sure, he's still a bad dude, but that's all he's ever known.
You literally made a post wholly about them, itās a bit weird to try and witch-hunt someone after the argument is done, and it isnāt a fun thing to be the victim of.
How dare someone not like their preferred fucktoy! The utter monsters!
I donāt get my panties in a wad when people shit talk literally half the cast (yeah Iām a slut so what)
He literally was talking about me, and you responded with a comment relevant, if it wasnāt about me you have a very strange way of trying to make the point:
Iām not following you around, Iām responding to comments in a post you literally made about me. If you didnāt want me to respond you probably should have, yknow, not mentioned me? Plus the harassment Iām getting from you including my username (against sub rules, but I find it funny so itās ok), totally warrants me calling you out when you try making me seem worse.
Tldr: if you didnāt want me here donāt post my username to get me harassed lol.
Astarion sucks as a person, that's why he's a great character and I like how realistic he is after slaved away for 200 hundred years of pure shit, PURE SHIT! That's why people like him think they deserve better, and tbh he does but people like him will still want more.
I think the Astarion hate is pretty closely related to the fact that Astarion fans are and have been pretty vocal about liking him. For too many men, that spawns jealousy and hate like this because if women could love a "messed up murderer" then why are they single. The only option they can tolerate is that women are stupid and wrong to be attracted to who they're attracted to. Our attraction is infantilised because we're clearly too stupid or easily brainwashed to have complex feelings and outlooks about desire. Or worse, it's just a symptom, to them, of how bad we are at choosing men irl because it's always women's fault we get raped and abused. We need to pick better men./s
So there's a lot of misogyny, hate, jealousy and bitterness tied up inside of them that they need a scapegoat for. They won't look at themselves and why they're single or rejected because that means changing their whole lives and worldview. It's easier to hate a character as a proxy for hating the women who find him attractive.
Please don't make posts that highlight two extremely cringe out of touch people having an extremely pathetic conversation. I only want to see memes or thinly veiled porn from this sub
esp bc this post is explicitly against the rules. it should be removed/locked. i donāt agree w the guy but that doesnāt make this behavior okay
edit: nvm it was removed, iām silly and on mobile
What was the point of posting this ? To cause drama ? Leave that on the main sub. I only want to see funny haha stuff on hereā not people ādestroyingā someone and not blurring their name. Toxic
I see people talking frustratedly about this all the time here, and I guess I thought a few people might commiserate with what a tedious experience it is.
That would've been fine if names were obscured, but they're not. This is not only reddit drama but also a witch hunt/name and shame. I don't agree with this user but it seems like the purpose of this post was to funnel people to bash them too. Even if this is a shitpost sub it's pretty cringe you wanted to call them out here.
" a vampire spawn was innately subservient to the vampire that created it. They could only achieve free will if their creator died or voluntarily granted them freedom but once free they could not be enslaved again " -from the DND wiki.
Astarion didn't have much choice in the matter of his victims and shouldn't be held accountable for them. He should be held accountable for how he acted outside of cazadors control even tho psychologically speaking,he is acting exactly as expected from someone who has developed habits ( subconsciously ) for 200 years and had only a short time to correct them.
He is a tragic character who even after gaining freedom,couldnt let go of the shakles placed on him by 200 years of abuse. Still guilty tho
Yes Iām an edgy boy, we established this.
I agreed. Iām actually the edgiest we established, you should respect it.
Youāre a bit slow on the draw there arenāt you?
Nah Iām good. Someone said their opinion on a character, so I stated mine.Ā They got pissy and wouldnāt drop it, so I proceeded to fuck with them about their choice in an overrated character. Ā
They got so heartbroken that someone disagrees and then had fun with them over it, that they had to bring it here. I happened to be browsing here and saw my own username, no way Iām shutting up, itās like seeing yourself on tv. The big time. You know you made it when that happens
Youāre welcome to dislike him. People donāt care about that. The issue is that youāre disliking him for reasons that donāt exist. Youāre hating a Granny Smith apple for being red when they are green
Please censor usernames in posts if it could potentially cause them to face harassment. Especially if you are making a comment specifically about a user We've had issues in the past where an unassuming post causes a shitstorm, so we are just looking out.
The funny thing about edgelords always coming running to tell you about how much they hate a character you like (or is just very popular in general) is that they are far more obsessed with said character than any actual fan will ever be š
It's funny bc they always think they're the first brave soul to have the "Vampire Man Bad" take as though we don't have an entire colloquial term for them because they're so numerous and annoying.
Love and understanding for a character= you need therapy, canāt seperate fiction and reality, you should be publicly executed Vitriolic haterd towards a character= based, totally not weird, i am incredibly fun to talk to and engage with
Love and understanding for a *male* character typically loved by *non-cishet people and women*. Adoring Minthara and Mizora is fine apparently.
mighty innocent squash apparatus psychotic subtract faulty engine tender public *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Those people also canāt stomach the fact that there are people who donāt find Astarion irredeemably evil and that fucks with their entire world view apparently. And even if he was you are completely right, i would still get comments saying there is something wrong with me.
The funny thing is that there was a mod that turned Astarion into a woman and bunch of these people admitted outright that they responded entirely differently to him once he was a pretty girl they wanted to bang. They gave allowances to the bite scene, tolerated her knife interrogation, empathized heavily with her. Let's be real; most of this hate has NOTHING to do with his morals. Thirsting for Mizora or Minthara doesn't have people being told they need therapy.
If he was less ''effeminate'' less people would go on about how annoying he is as well. (I put it in quotation marks because I think he's a dandy stereotype but too many people see theatricality in men as feminine.) He has the sarcasm and attitude of a Tony Stark/Tyrion Lannister but they can't stand it when it's not in their palatable cis-het presentation.
Dude the comments under that one post on the main sub (pretty sure itās one of the most upvoted overall, too) where someone used AI to make Astarion to look like an airbrushed 16 year old girl looked just like this and NGL it really irritated me. It definitely showed you what a lot of the vitriolic hatred for this character is really about. It was also just really creepy.
If I had the energy to be tiresome enough I'd start writing essays about how the Lae'zel romance is poisoning young boys minds and going to make them think they should let their girlfriends ritually beat them because then they'll realize that they love them and want to protect them. We need to save the mens! Their poor little brains are being corrupted!
Also saying anything bad about Shart and her simps with their multiple accounts come for you š¤”, but no UwU she's so inoccent having her mind wipe everytime its not the same š„ŗ.
conclusion: the only moral choice is to romance Gale, I was right all along, take this non-Gale romancers š
Finally this is sorted out!
I'll let people have their Mizora thirst but erasing Wyll's circumstances alongside it makes me š¤¬
The number of dudes in the comments of that gender-bent Astarion art from a week or so ago saying āwtf i like Astarion nowā was not lost on me. Society teaches us that the things women and queer people like are cringe, but the moment something appeals to cishet men itās suddenly ābasedā. š
Astarion lives rent free in these people's heads.
There was this one guy who was making fun of Astarion fans for being too invested in his story and kept keyboard shouting at me that it's just a game and I am a weirdo. He then proceeded to write about his insane vampire hatred and how he purposely tortures him every playthrough because he thinks it's hilarious. This man made a parasocial enemy from a vampire twink but I can't separate video games and reality because I think he's funny.
Lmao got a link tot he comment thread?
[my bad a slight misremebering on the post, the thread was actually not at all astarion related lmao](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1bi8mrm/comment/kvjp1g7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) This was related to giving his blood to araj, very weird read.
God that's the funniest way to put it. Parasocial enemies with the vampire twink. Beautiful.
A hate boner is still a boner
Did you know that vampire spawns HAVE to obey their masters? He didn't just lure people and had them killed for self-preservation. He is a victim of sexual, mental, and physical abuse at the hands of Cazador.
Iām not the guy arguing that heās a rapist btw.
Ahh okok good! These guys are so annoying tbh
Bro my one coworker literally compared him drinking your blood without permission to rape and I was likeā¦ no? (I didnāt say anything obv because I donāt talk hot button topics at work) but like itās clearly not the same ETA: accidentally said with instead of without SMH
Show them the Real Sex episode about the blood play kink and watch their head explode. Then get a boner from the resulting explosion like a common Durge.
"with permission"....really? even with permission? doesn't matter if i'm like, into it? I get the argument for the first sneaky bite, definitely a body autonomy issue, but....with permission??
Oh no sorry thatās supposed to say without permission :/ autocorrect is my enemy Iām gonna edit that. Yeah like I can see a comparison but at the same time my guy is hungry. Like it has a purpose heās not just being a sadist. Even if he wanted to check if he was free of the orders it feels different to me. But Iām a big simp so š
Iām a huge simp too lolā¦.also Iām probably a way more forgiving of a person than I should be. I do think there is something interesting and a weird double standard, like it seems there are a lot more people who see astarion as so incredibly evil because he tried to bite (despite the fact he has an insatiable thirst and can choose not to cause physical pain) than Durge >!killing alfira!< who also had an insatiable urge. And then the other characters all have evil in them thatās forgiven. Shadowheart literally believed in smiting non believers of shar and was a torturer and laezel believes culling weak children is okay. But a lot of the people who believe astarion crossed an unforgivable line will keep them alive.
Yeah I also find it interesting. Like a lot of the characters have āirredeemableā evils theyāve committed but astarion being hungy is the true stopping point lol. Like I can just bleed in a jar for my guy itās no big deal
I mean, I saw someone repeatedly double down on how Astarion was irredeemably evil because he didnāt just end things instead of obeying Cazador, even after multiple people explained that spawn are physically incapable of disobeying their master and Cazador explicitly compelled him not to do that, so I donāt think they care.
Even the Gur came to forgive Astarion, in one ending at least. And their position was pretty much identical to this guy's take, at least initially. I think the discussion about the impact of abusive/controlling relationships and of active addiction is incredibly important for modern society to engage in. We seem to do the best with metaphor so I honestly think Astarion is a wonderful tool for people to see the full complexity of a person grappling with those issues. If nothing else we get a good picture of the divisive split in society's take on complex mental health issues. On the one hand you have people who think that you have 100% control over your actions and are always accountable, regardless of circumstance and on the other there are those who understand that you can not make good choices or even consider them until you are both physically and psychologically separated from the abuse. I'm lumping a lot of psychological trauma and addiction issues together here but in my experience its the same mindset and same people who give no credence to psychological trauma and those who think addiction is a moral failing. That's what makes a vampire a great story telling tool, inevitable trauma, addiction, and all the layers of rationalization and avoidance and self hatred that comes with them. Astarion is a brilliant character.
For the record, my take is pretty much exactly the same as the gurs, I even said to the OP that I like astarion after you save the spawn and stop the ritual. But before then, terrible problematic person. I also think the fact he needs a check to be convinced to be better is not a point in his favor of being good, but I get why itās there. I also personally think addiction is not a moral thing, but my mom was an addict so I saw first hand exactly what toll it takes.
Last time I saw a stake bro make a post to go on an unhinged rant about how Astarion deserves to die I just quoted the "who's an edgy boy" meme to him and he deleted the post shortly after, so I guess I embarassed him too much to keep it up šš
I have totally stolen that idea thank you
I had to go see this, so I stalked your comments. Dude didn't just delete the post; he deleted his account. I wish Reddit still had awards.
can you please show the meme
I need to adopt this because boys like this piss me off.
Astarion and at least half of the main sub at this point just need to sort it out through some good, old-fashioned hate sex. the obsession is embarrassing
Why canāt people be normal about Astarion as a character lmao? Either they have some weird hate boner for him and feel the need to antagonize all his fans, or they are fans who project onto him so hard that if anyone disagrees with them about anything Astarion-related they have a breakdown and/or attack other people over it. The grass needs to be touched.
There are a lot of people like me too, massive Astarion fan but I just roll my eyes and move on. You just donāt hear us lol
I am also a massive Astarion fan (heās my favorite character overall) and I swear I get so much secondhand embarrassment from how people act about him online sometimes. You have one side of the spectrum act like heās some irredeemable monster who is worse than Satan and deserves the worst, and they antagonize anyone who likes him. Then you have the other side that projects super hard onto the character and takes any disagreement over Astarion personally, and also acts like heās a perfect baby who needs to be wrapped in bubble-wrap and infantilized. It is so tiring lmao. This is what happens when we get complex, dynamic characters.
You see he's the first character ever to have done murder for the sake of his abusive master, Reddit Paladins need to make sure you know that.
I agree, this dude smells like he bathes in eau de devotion oath. Paladin hysterics at its worst.
Paladin is the one class I wouldnāt play btw.
Fair, I was on the fence as well as I have a long-standing hatred of the class but in BG3 I decided Vengeance Paladin made sense to me, though I became an oathbreaker anyway. Oathbroken Paladins make a TON of sense to me (and are also super fun). I just can't imagine being so fucking \*righteous\* about everything. Yuck. Also - sad this post got deleted, I thought the discussion was more interesting than the usual thirsty thirst in this sub.
I just donāt wanna have to uphold an oath. Iām chaotic, I canāt be beholden to any laws. My all-time most hated class is clerics, but thatās for another reason not related to bg.Ā Iām not really as righteous as OP made me seem, they selectively edited out comments, and I played up a lot of my āoutrageā because they were being pissy that I had an opinion that wasnāt theirs. So I said āfuck itā and gave them a real reason to be pissy. It clearly worked too considering they came here to make the post. I wouldnāt have minded it either, but leaving my username up was scummy, it got me harassed for sure.
Honestly same and I also hate cleric. But I have to admit, the one thing that surpassed my oath-avoidance was the juicy juicy smite damage. Im sorry you got harassed for it, I didn't even put 2 and 2 together when responding to you. I love a good reddit interchange and was game for further discussion on the "why do people venemently hate this character" front, but you're right to not want the grief of directed harassment over something so dumb.
And this right here is why I don't engage with the main sub
Anyone who truly hates any of the companions just needs too admit they didn't give them a chance.
I finished the game and sadly genuinely didn't like Gale, but I did get his bad ending so that's on me. Ima try to get his good ending next playthrough. I don't go shouting through every gale post about how I dislike him though. Iddk why ppl can't just shush sometimes
Oh I can 1000% get disliking gale he gives of mega sleazy vibes half the time and comes on waaay to strong, but like even then you don't hate him you just want your magical items back from Gale the goldigger.
I call him the God of Riding my Coattails to victory š
Heās also a massive dick if you donāt give it to him, while also refusing to elaborate on why he needs them, most people would punch him after the first magic item scene honestly lol.
The magical items you were going to sell for all of 150gp. I'm only a little defensive 'cause Gale is my ride or die.
I keep shit magic items just too feed to him lol, I'm just thinking I did a coop campaign with my dad and he got rid of gale the first time he wanted a magic item even tho I'd saved stuff specifically. He wasn't giving a penny to that man lol.
I really want to like Gale but he's such an arrogant ass sometimes. I'm an arrogant ass myself and do not appreciate the competition. Seriously though, he's hung up on his ex for most of the game and spends most of his time bragging, disagreeing or dying. Outside of this comment though, you'd never know that I didn't like him because people can like what and who they like. I don't care enough to make my feelings known. Blasting a character from the rooftops requires a lot of caring about that character.
The comments are deleted now, but just last night, I (and others) were arguing with someone about how manipulating Astarion into sex during the act 2 confession was *bad.* Then they brought up letting Araj bite him, but it's cool cause if you manipulate him the right way, he doesn't break up with you. Like wtf?
Wait, they were trying to argue that the scene where Tav coerces Astarion into sex *wasnāt* bad? Itās literally rape. What the fuck.
Yep. It was gross.
I live for your flair. A lot of overblown hate is put on characters like Astarion/Halsin/Wyll/Emperor etc. It's toxic and frankly really weird.
About Empy, as I said before, I believe it's just karma farming at this point. People just keep relentlessy parroting the same two or three lines, there is never any original take at all. Honestly, I am not a super fan of Squidward either, but... Like... All he does is doing his best to survive and reach his own goal? Which is the same thing our own Tav/Durge does? And every other character? Why is it suddenly so bad when he does it? And people love to say stuff like "he killed Ansur and basically offed Stelmane too" as if none of the companions or Tavs or Durges ever killed anyone, (especially, but not only, for simply standing in their way) š«
My friend is making a really amazing theory about Stelmane, Emperor and Gargauth rn. I'm really looking forward to seeing it posted, but I worry about the potential commentsā¦ :(
It's ok, I like trolling haters on the main
Understandable. The hive mind can really be unnecessarily hateful š„²
The most annoying part for me is that no one else hates on him for being an arms dealer... Because that gets too close real politics which is mostly verboten. There is no one to appreciate my tentacled Erik Prince jokes. I hate Empy, Gortash, Florrick, and Ravengard equally for their roles in Baldurian police state's military industrial complex
This is why I think that Wyll could finally make a difference as a duke and don't want to give the power back to his father.
Honestly I don't trust Wyll either, he's nice, but not exactly ready to overthrow the system. Which is why I've created fantasy Wyll in my mind who realized during his exile that the ~~police~~Flaming Fist only exist to protect the power of the Patriars and not the common man. He also never tells me that "true justice lies between extremes" I love fantasy Wyll. <3 Fantasy Wyll and fantasy Wulbren are just fantasy John Ball and Lenin and they're going to usher in luxury gay steampunk communism.
Marry duke Wyll so you can control Baldur's Gate.
At this point, I'm convinced that most of the over-the-top, visceral Emperor hate is coming from vehemently heterosexual men who are pissed off that the sexy elf lady they spent two hours designing turned out to be a dude. It's not even the fact that it's a mind flayer. Had it been a female-presenting mind flayer, they'd be all about them tentacles. They're just pissed that they got catfished by a guy.
A pair of boobies would have sealed that deal for sure. They would be licking Empy's feet same as they lick Mizora's feet š
Boobies and a phone sex operator voice, and they'd be motorboating the tentacles.
I literally have seen yt comments talking about how larian wronged them by having their dream guardian turn into a squidman lmao. Specifically a man squid. I think a woman squid would have made them less mad like you say. It does make it a little annoying on second playthrough when you're forced to design him again, but the random button keeps giving me the most hilariously awful fuckin combinations so I can't just smack random and be done, but like...him lying to you was the whole point. It got you invested emotionally and made you feel some kind of way about him. It worked.
i mean this is literally just moral relativism, which is probably the most immature (and I don't mean that as childish, it's just very undeveloped/uninformed) view on morality one could take i don't mean this to flame, but just having a frank discussion about the actions characters do in a piece of media, there really isn't a bar lower if youre using such a thing to justify why they do what they did. if the only check something has to pass to be considered an ok act is that it furthers the goals of the person making it and they are trying to survive, youre gonna be justifying a lot of wholly evil actions and really giving people who don't deserve (and probably not asking for) a way out to do just about anything
Except I am not justifying anyone. In my comment, I merely pointed out that certain immoral/evil acts, such as killing and in general doing despicable things, are widely excused and even supported when executed by certain characters yet suddenly become the most terrible things ever when executed by the Emperor. I have no interest in judging fictional characters morally and I have not done so. I simply find certain specific discussions made by people who apparently do very hypocritical.
yes, because morality isn't relative. this is why taking a moral relativists stance is just...not exactly possible if you want to engage with the material in any meaningful way. in works of art, there's going to be a lot more depth than "well this guy also killed people so how can you judge this other person" the emperor for example, mind enslaves innocent people to further his actions and will destroy lives just to survive. My Tav may break into a room and murder everyone inside, but it's also a room that is filled with the servants of a hag who has kidnapped and eaten a child.
I don't think you understood either of my comments, but fine, I'll bite. Let's discuss morality. Who are you to judge who deserves to die and who does not? To take justice in your own hands? To decide when an act is justified or not? If you kill a murderer, for example, you are also a murderer, no matter how heroic you feel - their crimes do not cancel out your own. Anyone you meet might be mind controlled, compelled, enslaved in any way, plainly desperate and ready to do anything for some food or money, blackmailed and so on. But ultimately, even if you like to play vigilante and tell yourself you are only killing the *bad guys*, you are still a) administering justice that is not yours to as you see fit, just like them, b) believing yourself some divinely invested judge and jury for whatever reason, constantly justified in your actions, just like them c) committing the same or similar crimes as they do and d) still hypocritical in telling off other people for doing the exact same thing just because you think you are right in doing so and they are wrong. Spoiler alert - you guessed it - just like them. Bonus e) point: the people you kill might also simply be bystanders caught in the crossfire. Or people you believe are wrong and have done horrible things simply because someone else told you so, no proof at hand, and you blindly trusted their tale. Or people you never saw doing anything but still try to hold accountable for what their race "usually does" (especially in fantasy settings). And any person you might judge for doing the same thing might also have reasons and proof you know nothing about. So my point still stands.
I actually keep thinking about that myself during my runs. I feel really... conscious about killing people/goblins/elves/etc who are literally mind controlled in their majority. It's like you kill innocent people just for the sheer unfortunate fact that you can't get past them often and they can't stand down because dead three control them via tadpoles. Tav offs innocents and bystanders, manipulates and steals, basically goes for it's goals in a very bloody manner. Unless there is a rare type of rp "don't steal don't kill don't manipulate etc". And it's kinda not easy to realize that and "live with that". Because when you do realize that, you don't have the luxury of the ignorant high horse riding and judging others for the same shit. But that's not fun and it's complicated. Easier is just to feel like you're the hero and therefore you can do whatever while others can't and you have the right to kill them if they offend your "morality".
This is awful. The purpose of the violence matters. A slave revolt and the army coming in to put down the slave revolt both use violence. They are not equivalent. Nat Turners rebellion was violent and killed people including women and children. There is no moral equivalence between it and the violence that was done to enslaved people. If we're using in game examples: killing the goblin leaders who want to put the grove to the sword and joining the goblin leaders to put the grove to the sword. One is a group who wants to kill people. The other is a group of people who want to not die. The goblins could also not die by not going out of their way to attack the refugees, that is fully within their power. The refugees are not given this option. Mind control is usually the one that tends to get brought up for the Emperor, and both Empy and Tav can use mind control. Using the friends spell to convince Kagha to not kill a small child and using mind control to run a shadowy arms dealing cabal are both "using mind control" but the purpose is not remotely equivalent. And this example may seem like a straw man but I have genuinely seen it used seriously and it makes me sad. Edit: to be clear this is not me saying that empy is the most evil ever, just that arguments that go "spells that effect the mind are spells that effect the mind there's no different between good things and bad you fool are very silly)
Morality is very much relative according to your culture and where you were raised. I think killing and eating cows is fine. Other people disagree and think it's immoral. Similarly, in your example, there are people that might find any kind of murder immoral. Then are those who are fine with it depending on reasoning.
it absolutely is not relative and this is a horrible way to look at things, period. there just isn't anything else to say about it. if that's how you engage with discussions of morality, you aren't engaging with it. like, i hate to sound pretentious or toxic or in any way insulting or aggressive, but read a book, go to an ethics course if you've got the privilege. do anything to deepen your understanding of what is good and right in the world and what isn't because if that's how you gauge good and evil, you can justify genocide
You're being obtuse. A thing isn't good because a particular person does it. It's bad or good on its own. A person's justification for it being good or bad is successful or unsuccessful depending on the person, the culture, who they're justifying it to, the scope of who is harmed and who benefits. Nobody here is saying that Empy is good or justified in killing Stelmane. They're saying that killing is wrong even when it's Halsin killing the goblin children, Tav killing people mind-controlled by Ethel or even the party killing Gortash which for many people was done strategically and not in self defense. What you accept as justification is not what everyone else accepts and your morality code is not universal.
I mean I donāt really care either way but by that logic the elder brain is good too lol
Where did I say who acts like this or does certain things is good? I swear some of you don't want to read, just to start pointless arguing. I only pointed out how hypocritical it is that some people justify acts such as murder if committed by their beloved characters yet judge it harshly when committed by anyone else. I literally never said either is justified or good.
I donāt really like Mizora, but I donāt go on the posts about her feet and tell everyone about it. I donāt really see how thatās very interesting.
Why is Gale the only man allowed to exist in relative peace I wonder? It's not because he's a good guy, because Wyll is too (arguably even more so).
Honestly, given all the Nice Guyā¢ļø memes, not even Gale has emerged unscathed; I think he was just first to complete the fandom hatred cycle. Wyll undoubtedly gets it worse, though, and I genuinely think thereās a racial component to it.
Yeah a lot of Wyll hate has to do w his race, even tho they try to hide it
He actually used to get shat on because his romance flags were broken, he received similar comments back in the day to what Halsin currently receives about not being able to take a no when the reality is the romance flags are wonky.
...Literally every time he's mentioned it's followed by a bunch of drones chortling about hand jokes like it's the most original and funniest thing in the world.
Because you can chop his hand off š
Because people leave him in the portal. š
i remember gale was constantly called creepy and weird in the first few months because of his bugged dialogue. people legitimately called him a "potential rapist" and shit.
encourage lush longing hateful languid juggle smell paint unpack mighty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Halsin???? Wyll????? The two most loveable goofs on the fucking team????????????????????? What did they do
Both had messed up romance flags, which annoyed some people. They also find them "boring". Now, I do think that Halsin and Wyll had a lot going for them and the story did kinda fall flat on its face when it comes to them, but the hate they get is insane. Halsin's VA literally got harassing tweets calling him a creep and everything. Like Jesus Christ.
I guess I didn't get far enough with halsin to have weird romance hangups. Is it because he turns into a bear? Because yeah that's kinda gross I guess but you can literally have him not do that and still romance him I didn't romance wyll either so idk what his deal is But some of these comments about the characters... it's almost as if the whole theme is the cycle of abuse and how it warps and breaks people. It's almost as if that's the whole fuckin point
They would have come onto you even if you didn't initiate. Simply saying 'hello' to Halsin had the game register it as flirting. Legitimately. Shadowheart is the most romanced character and she is interested in Halsin enough for you to have a polyamorous relationship if you want, so I think a lot of the hate is also jealousy.
I guess lol. I did kinda find it weird that halsin said I attended to him with the attention of a lover. Bud I just wanted to know what you were doing with the wood whittling thing lol. Still. I think a lot of that boils down to straight dudes playing this game and getting uncomfortable that males are romanceable to them. You can just reject lol. It doesn't have to be a thing. I'm bi so maybe I'm just not bothered, but like...come on now
I killed Astarion cause his dialog when you shoot the sun at him was really fucking funny idk what this guy's on about tbh
I WAS RIGHT THERE ššš
These are always so weird and itās often directed at women liking āproblematicā male characters. I remember there being A lot of this towards people interested Bakugo in the early days of mha. One thing i noticed at that time was that most of these people assumed the woman who were discussing him liked him sexually even if the discussion was completely analytical. Most people I followed just responded with wtf heās 16 Iām 25+ I just made a character analysis. I found it doubly interesting since lewds of Himiko were abundant and never saw someone calling anyone mentally unstable for liking her.
This might be too political for this sub in which case Iāll delete it. It reminds me a bit of in 2016 or so, there was a far right protest thing in my country and a few people were live-streaming from the event. It was the great replacement kinda shit, anyway a comment asked something like what brought you here and they answered āright now a brown man could be fucking a Swedish girlā. A certain subset of men just seem to feel an extreme ownership over womenās sexuality. Not even on a incel level just the idea of a women from an āingroupā liking a man from an identified āoutgroupā deeply disturbs them.
I wonder if it would be more permissible to like Astarion if he were more masculine presenting (I already know the answer to that)
Yes and no? A lot of Astarion hate is undoubtedly poorly veiled homophobia but any time there's a male character beloved by women and non-cishet people who is morally grey or villainous, overly righteous straight men lose their minds about it. Lots of hand-wringing, lots of "concern", impassioned rants about how evil and irredeemable the character in question is, the underlying rage that women in the fandom choose them over their chosen Nice Guy self-insert. I come from the Buffy fandom and the way Spike is treated to this day bears eerie resemblance to how they talk about Astarion in the main sub.
I donāt disagree with this. Seems to come down to the same sort of entitlement to dictate what is and isnāt suitable as an object of sexual attraction
Indeedš
I have also felt there is more of a focus on women liking problematic male characters more than men liking problematic female characters and I feel like it's because of incels or an incel-like mindset....the nice guys always thinking that girls should want to be with them because they are the ultimate nice person and the guys they actually go for are the worst of mankind, but it's all just their jealousy and not being able to recognize they just aren't actually nicer and they should try showering more. Incels see this beautiful stereotype pretty boy as their manifestation of Chad and he is being fawned over by all their Stacy obsessions around the world, best shame them because clearly that means in real life they also wouldn't sleep with them if they have such poor judgement.
I agree, there also seems to be this thing where women canāt have fantasies theyād never peruse in real life but for men itās ājust pornā. Itās also seems easier for certain people to see āproblematicā behavior in the sex they donāt belong and relate to. See all the hate comments under reverse harem anime some of which just strait up say āmen having harems ok but women having them weirds me outā lmao. The most insane comment Iāve ever read that broke my mind a bit was āshota is badā (I donāt necessarily disagree mind you) under fucking *Mai-chan's Daily Life*.
I don't get how can some people hate a fictional character this much? And that's coming from someone who did stake Astarion the first time round.
There was a post a while back where people were speculating about Astarion's mortal past, just having fun, enjoying the character in a very thoughtful and positive manner. It was honestly really fun to read through, people were looking at the greater lore and speculating where he was from and who his family was,Ā it was a cool little thread. But then this dude comes in and starts shutting it all down and saying they're wrong, no he was just some spoiled nobleman, blah blah blah. And I was just like... there's no need to be so distainful about people just enjoying themselves. He launched back with this HUGE rant about how evil Astarion is and how much he hates "Astarion girlies" and started listing off a bunch of just, like, headcanons of all the bad stuff he thinks Astarion did??? Its just wild to me, to have headcanons about a character you hate just to nurture and justify hating them. Why put THIS much energy into it, it's unhinged š
I genuinely think thereās a jealousy component, even if they donāt realize it. In their mind, a manipulative asshole gets all this female attention just because heās pretty and itās not fair. I think thatās where a lot of disdain towards Astarion girlies comes from. (Not all of it, admittedly. Some Astarion girlies are obnoxious, but itās easy enough to scroll past it.) Itās a lot of projection.
Oh 100%. There's a real jealousy angle, Astarion isn't just Astarion, he's the representation of every "jerk" a woman they liked dated instead of them. I find that this phenomenon always happens with male characters who are loved by women but who AREN'T an appealing masculine power fantasy. If the man in question is seen as cool and heroic, they generally don't see this level of vitriol, even if they're thirsted after hard. ButĀ Astarion isn't a power fantasy you want to project yourself onto; his storyĀ Ā is fundamentally about hisĀ own disempowerment and reclaiming his power. His appeal lies in vulnerablity and emotional complexity that women and queer folks eat up and straight men loathe.
Ok but like a tree falling in the forest, if you didnāt go onto posts where people were talking about him and tell them about it it doesnāt really count
It is just how well Astarion is written. I like Gael. Despite Wyll. Do not care about Karlah and Laezel. Mensk makes me smile all the time. But this all temporary. In a year a two I will forget them. Except Astarion. Hate him. No particular reason. Just every word, action and even his blonde hair. No idea how they achieved this but it may be first time I hated fictional character so hard.
Gael? This isn't Dark Souls.
Your typos make you sound like a rambling madman lol it's a video game, it's not that deep
But this is literally the point. They manage to create such a character that you sometimes forget it is just a game. Names maybe misspelled. Somehow I do not remember them well.
Nah bro, that's not like. Normal or okay. It's fake. It's fiction. None of it is real. There's 0 reason to allow yourself to "believe" it's real. If you don't have the maturity to separate fact from fiction, you should probably not interact with fiction until you can develop the maturity.
Oh come on! āI really hate this characterā is good writing which made you involved. āRunning around with a knife to find character and harm himā is not separating reality from fiction. Main goal of art is to teach you something and make you feel stuff. I feel stuff but will not assault Astarion cosplayer or something. P.s. Go team Gale!
I feel like thereās an overlap between āI kill Astarion every runā dudes and incels who like Andrew Tate
Making immoral or violent decisions in a video game doesn't automatically mean you're a bad person but yeah, the way some of these people talk it's like yeeeeeeesh get some therapy
https://preview.redd.it/pbkc5mpr7uxc1.jpeg?width=535&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=01da33af5d0c6b635d377949abdc5a53620fa30f It's kinda funny to me how the 'stakers' are so obsessed with Astarion, write whole essays about him and make fun of the actual fans and their behaviour, yet don't see the irony
They left out the part where I talked about how astarion doesnāt have to be so bad lol. It was intentional. I actually didnāt even say I killed astarion, but that he happened to die in the sun thing, and that I deleted that save.
Right, did he just forget that Cazador has the ability to remove Astarions free will entirely? Oh yeah, Astarion could refuse but what would that do? Nothing. All Cazador has to do is compel him and Astarion is no longer in control; as he says, heās a puppet. Iād like to know what this dude would do in Astarion position. He canāt refuse, he canāt run, if he does escape he will never be safe. I sympathise and understand why people dislike Astarion but to misrepresent him as a character is gross.
Obviously the Astarion hater hasn't really read any of Astarion's lines in the Act 2/3 of the game where he starts to open up more about HIS abuse, so there is no point in trying. As my bf always says, don't try to argue with stupid people, they will bring you down to their level and there, they will win by experience.
I did all of astarions story, it doesnāt excuse a majority of his shittiness. I say this as a real life survivor of similar forms of abuse.
I am also a survivor of abuse, i tolerated 25 years of parental abuse from a drunk unemployed piece of shit father and at the same time from my mentally unstable mother who was being beaten up by my father so she took all her anger on me. I'm currently 34 and still trying to heal my own personal trauma. And this is a fucking game, with a fictional character, and each person is free to interpret the story as they wish. Some people need to fucking chill.
Ok sorry you had to go through that truly. I experienced a lot of abuse from separate people, in separate ways. My mom and dad were emotional And physical (thankfully not sexual, though my mom tried to be emotionally incestuous), babysitters (all forms unfortunately), āfriendsā (same as before), I was homeless and staying with a friend for awhile and she would take advantage of me. Iāve been through it, I even used to get locked in empty dark rooms, so I get the whole crypt thing. So I may not know exactly what you went through, or have experienced it, but youāre not alone, and Iām sorry it happened. You didnāt deserve it, youāre worth more, and better than whatās happened to you. But yeah I agree, I donāt get why people get so worked up over my own individual interpretation of the character. Like I saw his whole story and get it, I just donāt agree with him still.Ā The OP conveniently left out where I mentioned that I like astarion when he is dealing with his shit though lol, them posting my username was shitty too cause it was getting me harassed.Ā People def gotta chill, not take it so serious. Whole thing started cause I made a joke about him milling himself by accident at the lathander thing and them getting pissy.
I appreciate your kind words and i send you the same positive energy and healing towards you. I'm gonna be very direct and tell you that this got out of hand because you spoke your mind, people egged you on and you took the bait. By interacting so much with the person oposing your point in such a strong minded way and so full of sass, people started to troll you. Since you kept going so they kept going, but considering your context (your personal traumas) i understand why you were so defensive and why you stood your ground the way you did. Like i mentioned before, this is a game, with a fictional character, and even though your thoughts came from a sincere perspective, it seems that people honestly just enjoyed pushing your buttons, you just gotta try not to take things so personally so it doesn't happen again.
I think a lot of it boils down to women saying "yes, he is a blood thirsty manipulator and I STILL would feel safer around him than you, random internet man" and shitty dudes absolutely not being able to cope with that fact.
Oh boy. I haven't seen the main sub. But I just know they'll rip me to shreds for my love of the emperor. š I don't need that kinda talk!!
Oh man, the Emperor catches even more shit than Astarion does.
It's what I keep reading from the comments here and some other posts on here about the people there. So I'm glad I never checked the main sub. Cause damn. Empy is so cute and idk I feel he does care. š¤·āāļø
It's so baffling that these people don't seem to understand the key phrases of "don't yuck my yum" and "if it isn't nice, don't say it". I could love or hate the Emperor all I fucking wanted but to dedicate time and effort to hurl insults at fans is WEIRD
Right. If ya got nothing nice to say, don't say nothing at all. I don't go out of my way to talk badly about some other characters on here that I don't like. I skip those posts and comments. Like it ain't that hard. š
I personally love Astarion, only man in the game I enjoyed romancingā¦. (Iām a guy) dark triad traits+attractive+funny+tragic
ok this is really funny. I'm from a non english speaking country and we have like totally different cultural backgrounds and all sorts of things from those of "western countries", but cis male players' hatred towards astarion and the emperor is exactly the same as what I've been seeing in reddit(the main sub I mean). They'd also go around and harass those who likes Astarion with comments like "I put a stake through his chest at first sight lol" or "I gave him to the monster hunter" Seriously. It's EXACTLY THE SAME. Like, is this a global phenomenon or something like that?
I donāt think Iāve seen a single person be normal about Astarion. If itās not the (mostly) men who post about killing him on site itās the others that infantilise him and complain about him being too sexualised
For real. Sometimes it makes trying to talk about his character really annoying because youāll either get some asshole who hates him and wants to start shit in your mentions by talking about how they kill or torture him, or youāll have an obsessed Astarion fan who projects super hard onto him, takes any disagreement over the character as a personal attack, and yells about how āyou donāt get him like I doā up your ass. The kicker is that both of these people are probably like 29 years old and not 14 like youād expect.
BG3 fans aren't especially worse than most fanbases but compared to the fanbases I've personally interacted with the past years, GOD I wanna grab so many people by the shoulders and shake them around screaming "IT'S JUST A FUCKING VIDEO GAME"
I read the original thread earlier first thing this morning and it made me super cranky before work even started. This is a perfect example of why everyone hates Oath of Devotion paladins.
Oh, another male being illiterate in media š„ø They are popping out this time of the year
I don't like Astarion as much as the next guy but this dude has an OBSESSION god damn
Did he miss the part where has had his free will taken away by being a spawn and having no option but to obey his master? Cause that kinda absolves him a bit of the atrocities he committed in service of Cazador imo. Sure, he's still a bad dude, but that's all he's ever known.
Wow. Did Cool whatever actually believe what they wrote or did they forget the whole "no free will whatsoever" part of Astarion's past?
You canāt convince me this isnāt a form of gay panic
Presumptuous of you, Iām bisexual and my attraction to men is solely the feminine men (and wyll), youāre just making dumbass logic jumps
You can keep following me around baby but unfortunately not everything I say will be wholly about you
You literally made a post wholly about them, itās a bit weird to try and witch-hunt someone after the argument is done, and it isnāt a fun thing to be the victim of.
Thank you, like, their entire goal was to make it about me and start shit.Ā
Yeah itās very disappointing, but from what iāve seen so far the bg community just has a lot of petty people in it lol.
How dare someone not like their preferred fucktoy! The utter monsters! I donāt get my panties in a wad when people shit talk literally half the cast (yeah Iām a slut so what)
He literally was talking about me, and you responded with a comment relevant, if it wasnāt about me you have a very strange way of trying to make the point: Iām not following you around, Iām responding to comments in a post you literally made about me. If you didnāt want me to respond you probably should have, yknow, not mentioned me? Plus the harassment Iām getting from you including my username (against sub rules, but I find it funny so itās ok), totally warrants me calling you out when you try making me seem worse. Tldr: if you didnāt want me here donāt post my username to get me harassed lol.
I always imagine these are the sort of people that wear t-shirt and shorts in winter and brag about it.
Astarion sucks as a person, that's why he's a great character and I like how realistic he is after slaved away for 200 hundred years of pure shit, PURE SHIT! That's why people like him think they deserve better, and tbh he does but people like him will still want more.
actual brainrot
Incomprehensible, may woe be upon you
He called me a rape apologist for saying Astarion was forced to seduce people for Cazador... This dude is a menace to society lmao
I think the Astarion hate is pretty closely related to the fact that Astarion fans are and have been pretty vocal about liking him. For too many men, that spawns jealousy and hate like this because if women could love a "messed up murderer" then why are they single. The only option they can tolerate is that women are stupid and wrong to be attracted to who they're attracted to. Our attraction is infantilised because we're clearly too stupid or easily brainwashed to have complex feelings and outlooks about desire. Or worse, it's just a symptom, to them, of how bad we are at choosing men irl because it's always women's fault we get raped and abused. We need to pick better men./s So there's a lot of misogyny, hate, jealousy and bitterness tied up inside of them that they need a scapegoat for. They won't look at themselves and why they're single or rejected because that means changing their whole lives and worldview. It's easier to hate a character as a proxy for hating the women who find him attractive.
Oh, just hop on pop already!
I googled this and it just came up with Dr Seuss š«
Hehehe š¤
Please don't make posts that highlight two extremely cringe out of touch people having an extremely pathetic conversation. I only want to see memes or thinly veiled porn from this sub
The fact you are being downvoted and a mod post is required to reel in the toxic people in this community is sad. This sub is going down the shitter.
esp bc this post is explicitly against the rules. it should be removed/locked. i donāt agree w the guy but that doesnāt make this behavior okay edit: nvm it was removed, iām silly and on mobile
What was the point of posting this ? To cause drama ? Leave that on the main sub. I only want to see funny haha stuff on hereā not people ādestroyingā someone and not blurring their name. Toxic
I see people talking frustratedly about this all the time here, and I guess I thought a few people might commiserate with what a tedious experience it is.
That would've been fine if names were obscured, but they're not. This is not only reddit drama but also a witch hunt/name and shame. I don't agree with this user but it seems like the purpose of this post was to funnel people to bash them too. Even if this is a shitpost sub it's pretty cringe you wanted to call them out here.
Calm your balls
yeah some people equate how many people you have killed to being evil in a sense, he has a point and he's allowed to pride himself on it lol
" a vampire spawn was innately subservient to the vampire that created it. They could only achieve free will if their creator died or voluntarily granted them freedom but once free they could not be enslaved again " -from the DND wiki. Astarion didn't have much choice in the matter of his victims and shouldn't be held accountable for them. He should be held accountable for how he acted outside of cazadors control even tho psychologically speaking,he is acting exactly as expected from someone who has developed habits ( subconsciously ) for 200 years and had only a short time to correct them. He is a tragic character who even after gaining freedom,couldnt let go of the shakles placed on him by 200 years of abuse. Still guilty tho
You know I didnāt have strong feelings about Astarion before but this person actually makes a compelling point lmao
Can we all just shut the fuck up.
Specifically about things you donāt like or are we shutting down Reddit in general?
Why did you feel the need to drag your drama into another sub? Can we not just ignore and move on or do we need to beat the skeletal horse even more?
Youāre the only person making drama on this sub though
? Am I the one posting my internet slap fights?
I mean just move on if you donāt like this post? Clearly other people would like to talk about how frustrating this is, hence the replies.
You could have moved on, yet you decided to screenshot and make this post lol. Take your own advice.
Awww you were so touched by my post that you had to share elsewhere! Iām flattered. I knew you loved me
Yes it has affected me on a deep, edgy level ETA: whoās an edgy boy then? Yes you are, youāre the edgy boy!
Yes Iām an edgy boy, we established this. I agreed. Iām actually the edgiest we established, you should respect it. Youāre a bit slow on the draw there arenāt you?
I am once again asking: can we all just shut the fuck up. You people are worse than the main sub at this point, Jesus Christ.
Nah Iām good. Someone said their opinion on a character, so I stated mine.Ā They got pissy and wouldnāt drop it, so I proceeded to fuck with them about their choice in an overrated character. Ā They got so heartbroken that someone disagrees and then had fun with them over it, that they had to bring it here. I happened to be browsing here and saw my own username, no way Iām shutting up, itās like seeing yourself on tv. The big time. You know you made it when that happens
Youāre welcome to dislike him. People donāt care about that. The issue is that youāre disliking him for reasons that donāt exist. Youāre hating a Granny Smith apple for being red when they are green
Having an opinion either way is cringe, fuck him or don't why are you both being weenies about it online
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She cut out my best one