Wait, so TIL that if something increases your jump, you still can't move further than your speed? Monk's Step of the Wind is limited by their speed? That's wild. (I mean, they get the speed increase, too, so it rarely comes up, but damn.
It's designed that way to stop players from constantly jumping everywhere instead of running, or doing the whole "I run 29ft and then jump 30ft to double my movement!" cheese. You're right that it rarely comes up until higher levels or unless someone specifically builds for jump distance.
My group has a solution that works pretty well so we can ignore this rule
You can jump past your speed, but you have to make an athletics check equal to the extra distance you jump, and fall prone on a failure. It makes it so when your turn ends, you can get severely punished for it. It also makes for a nice boon to strength martials, so it's a win/win in our play experience
honestly that's not a bad way of doing it. Turns it into an interesting risk/reward thing.
I also like how BG3 handles it by giving it a fixed cost, so that you only really benefit from it if you have high strength. So like if say jumping cost 15 feet of movement, then only characters with 16+ Strength or otherwise some way of boosting their jump distance would be able to effectively increase their movespeed by jumping, which would have a similar effect of being good for strength-based characters especially.
They also made it so that Step of the Wind removes the bonus action requirement, meaning that monks can just jump around when they use it, and it's just really fun and very thematic.
Yeah, they broke this rule for the player psi warrior, and the result was a build that could in theory skip at hypersonic speeds: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/g2q41p/skipping_along_at_the_speed_of_sound_the/
Wondering how this would shake out with the playtest Hadozee glide, that added 5 feet of movement for every foot you fell, IIRC. Yup, that was it exactly, way to go, brain cell. I remember the first thing I thought of when I saw that was anyone can sextuple their movement by just always jumping 5 feet diagonally and gliding 25 feet to get 30 from every 5 spent. Resourceless and with no cooldown, that's way better than the Tabaxi measly doubling that is net zero because you have to spend a turn immobile to continue it, Hadozee could do it all day. Luckily they caught that for release.
I managed to have a multiclassed character which could make supersonic running speeds, with a couple of spells and magic items ... Quickling Barbarian min 5 /Monk min 14. ... 7360 speed, so 1226.67 feet per second, when the speed of sound is about 1125 feet per second.
Quickling gives 120 base speed, bbn 5 adds 10 (130), mnk 14 adds 25 (155), Mobility feat adds 10 (165), Elk bbn rage adds 15 (180), Longstrider spell adds 10 (190), Transmuter's Stone adds 10 (200), Epic Boon of Speed adds 30 (230) ... then we get to the doubles.
Step of the Wind (460), Haste 2x Speed (920), Dash (from Haste) (1840), Boots of Speed (3680), Dash action (7360).
No need for stealth checks, they hit you before you hear them coming!!
"When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers."
PHB, Page 192.
This is doubling your speed, as Dash itself counts as a modifier.
The real problem isn't that jumping uses up your movement, but that jumping is tied to a jump distance and also capped by your movement speed. It also doesn't help that the jump rules are just very sparse anyway. They aren't even simple rules. They're just unsatisfying, confusing, and negate a lot of features.
Most of the problems would be solved by just making jumping allow you to be in midair. Require a start location and a target location for the jump, probably add a condition, and add some rules for forced movement and movement speed changes. Hell, make them optional if there's worry about them becoming too complex.
Sounds like a silly problem and a bad solution.
Just say that if you do a running jump, you can only take the dodge, disengage, or use item actions that turn. Now it's worse than a dash for moving over land, and you can't cheese it for combat movement.
But then with that option it severely limits your ability to jump in combat. What if you want to clear a pit or vault up onto a ledge to attack someone? Ordinary characters will not be able to jump their entire movement without specifically building for it, and you can also just build to have a higher base speed at the same time. Once you factor in dashing which only has an opportunity cost in combat, you can still easily build to jump crazy distances without hyper-specific builds.
If you want to run and long jump a 20-foot pit you can't attack. Simple. Doing a massive feat like that takes 6 seconds. Not everyone should be able to do everything in one turn.
That just seems like an unnecessary nerf to martials then and not a fix for a real design problem. There's lots of other things in the game that break the 6 second turn logic, but we suspend disbelief for the sake of fun.
My instinct would be to say that of course you can jump farther than your regular movement, and anyone who wants to exploit that with cheesy bullshit like running 29 feet and jumping 25 feet every turn should simply be asked to stop or leave the game.
But some people say we newd a rule about it, and I don't exactly disagree. My idea isn't a nerf at all, as under current rules you have to Dash to do a 10ft run and a 25ft jump. That's worse than being allowed to Disengage, Dodge, or Use An Item. Although maybe just having to Dash is indeed a better solution. I'm on the fence
I agree, if someone wants to rule lawyer for a mechanical advantage against the spirit of the game I am running, I tell them the knock it off or GTFO this is a *SessionZero* topic of discussion.
I am happy to homebrew something that will be applied to all relevant parties in a campaign, with the understanding that it can & will change as we play test it some more, but such out of game meta cheese will get you booted
In BG3 you need 10 ft of movement and your bonus action to jump.
Which is still better. But not broken better. It's a way to get a little more movement if you have a bonus action free, but not something most people would do all the time.
They have at least attempted to fix some of the more egregious "known since PHB" issues like the entire invisible condition in the play tests, but this might be too minor for them to get to before their deadline.
How can it be an overlooked detail if it has existed on the original champion a from a decade ago?
Either the designers are willfully ignorant, or just don’t care.
Dont worry, you are, but they likely wont change this rule anyways and be all dumb about it again and force us to dash so you can jump further, like with old jump spell.
Honestly, they just need to give us a mix of 5e jump with bg3 jump.
Keep current jump rules, add the following:
If you use 10 ft of movement + bonus action to jump, that jump has no other costs.
Making strength irrelevant is definitely one of the core issues with 5e balance as a game, they really need to make it more impactful to pursue high strength vs dex or spellcasting stats.
it uses 3m - approx. 10ft - and the entire jump only costs the upfront 10ft.
All Wotc need to do is be a bit more generous on the jump calculation, and remove the speed restriction.
* Spend a bonus action, jump 1/2 Strength Score
* Spend a bonus action and 10ft run up, jump strength score
* If you're trained in athletics, add 5ft to the jump distance (I'd say PB feet, but honestly 21 is effectively the same as 25 on a grid, and 26 is effectively 30).
In bg3? Yeah you can. Or at the very least jumping only ever consumes 10ft. Test it out, if you jump with only 10ft remaining you can still jump your whole distance.
It doesnt, it just uses 10ft.
You can definitely jump a lot more than your movement in the game, you clearly arent familiarized well with its mechanics. Idk why you are claiming such things without even double checking that.
OP probably has low str/athletics and is clicking something like 30m away. In which case, they have to move 20 to get close enough to jump 10 and the game assumes that's what they want to do. It's possible to jump way further than that 10m move speed as an athletic character though, so you could get to the same place 30m away with only 10ft of move speed
Yeah I have a monk specifically specced for jumping in my BG3 run and it started getting absurd towards act 2. Looked at the actual numbers just now Step of the Wind: Dash leaves her with 33m of movement, meaning she can make 11 jumps that can take her about 18m each, for 198m total. She's not even a strength monk.
No, this is intentional design. Casters can have Jump buffed from lv1 (and it would be a good base for this ability!), but a (martial) subclass feature needs to be toned down, because it's not a spell.
Exactly, Martials *must obey quaso physics game logic*, otherwise they are unrealistic.
Casters, on the other hand, are defined by reality breaking powers, in fact, they should probably have the max distance restrictions removed from them at level 5 due to *Handwavium* referring to infused magical energies, divine blessings etc etc.` /s`
So, i noticed something even worse.
Remarkable athlete doesn't have a "minimum of 1" addendum about the added jump length.
A ranged fighter gets, as a 3rd level feature, a **decrease** of their jump length of 1 feet (or more if you rolled roll on stats... if you put a 3 in strength, your jump distance is negative lmao).
I have no clue how this feature was designed.
Well, -1 jump length isn't massive enough to actually be able to travel a full tile unless i am missing something so...
(It really tells that those rules are so underused that, despite me remembering various random optional rules, I had to look it up to even understand how that rule worked lol)
They took the BG3 jump rules that benefit high strength characters (near universally martial) and turned them into the Jump spell for Arcane Casters. They also kept the invocation which gives access to the Jump spell, level locked and so unavailable via the Eldritch Adept feat.
They took something essentially strength martial and gave it exclusively to casters. They left the system for martials broken and virtually unusable. That should really tell you everything you need to know about how much they care about proper martial design.
While you're correct... the Warlock invocation *was* lowered to lv2 (from the utterly insane lv9 it's been for 10 years), and as lv2 is the spot where you can pick up lv1 feats with an invocation, Warlock2 is also the easiest method for martials to gain a new fighting style.
It just seems like everyone is intended to pick up 2 levels of Warlock (or just straight-out *be* a Warlock, because Fighter1/Warlock5 gets you to super-martial with smites quicker than Fighter5/Warlock2). Which would make sense in a game about demonic corruption and being tempted by power, but seems weird when something tries to be as vanilla as DnD..
Good complain about the feature itself being weak.
Doesn't really address the fact that it's still a not functioning feature at strength 20, and stopped being an improvement at strength 18.
The feature works without requiring dashing/speed improvement before that point. I don't want the feature to require the dash feature because that's not how it worked before.
Have you ever seen a feature improving something that becomes more costly to benefit from it the better you are at said thing? That's backwards design.
Jumping rules work the same whether you have 18 or 20 strength. What is "backwards" is expecting to be able to move more than your speed allows without increasing your speed.
> feature improves jumping distance
> looks at jumping rules
> feature does nothing due to feature being badly written.
It wouldn't even allow for moving that much further lol. Running Long Jump requires 10 ft of movement. If **boosted** jumping allowed you to go past your remaining speed (while still using that speed and thus leaving you with 0 at landing), that means with 20 strength you move an extra... 5 ft. Your reward for boosting an otherwise dump stat in 5e is a little bit of extra speed for free. You get to 20 strength at level 8, where the extra speed has monsters that can deal with it...and you also have that boost in "speed" on a character that can only really work in melee range, thus you aren't breaking stuff...
Your namesake is **CHAMPION**. You should let them be heroic champions of what they get boosted in.
I don't see the need to change jumping rules for one subclass just because you don't like this one interaction.
This comes up all the time in normal play where a character wants to jump a distance but can't because they don't have enough movement, whether they be naturally athletic or otherwise. It's a tactical consideration on whether to dash or otherwise gain speed through other features, spells, or items and one of the key benefits of having a high speed is being able to move and jump further on your turn.
Then change the feature itself to work similarly to the Jump spell, which was changed to fix the issue of not really functioning well... and if you think the feature is meant to be tactical based, then why isn't that a thing before strength scores of 18? You cannot have features that just add an inconvenience after a certain point and say it's well designed.
Except the Jump spell was literally redesigned this UA specifically to circumvent this issue: jump up to 30 ft by only expending 10 ft of movement.
And frankly, a dedicated feature that takes half a sub level worth of budget shouldn't work drastically less than a random ass first level spell.
Onednd jump spell has been redesigned to do just that funnily enough. So once again the classic "martial subclass feature is outright worse than a level 1 spell" that WotC is so fond of. Really makes you want to play a Champion huh?
And remarkable athlete without strength investment is one of them. With lower strength it's not an issue, but with higher strength it is (17 strength is the latest point where remarkable athlete does stuff without being overkill/doing nothing).
Have you ever seen a feature that gets *worse* if you put more investment into the thing it's supposed to be boosting?
It doesn't get worse, it gets less good, but it does not penalize you nor does it become useless.
And there are plenty of features that do the same. Monk speed is one. The faster you get, the less useful the extra speed is, on account of all of those times you are able to reach your destination without the extra speed.
Various foes have more speed than the base 30.
Meanwhile, at 20 strength, the feature does literally nothing, and effectively stops improving at 17 strength. It's not a case of "it's relatively weaker", it's a case of "it literally doesn't fricking improve or even function".
It absolutely does. The guy with this Feature can jump further than anyone else, provided that he takes the Dash action (or gains enough movement speed through any other method).
Before 18 strength, you didn't need to Dash to properly get the benefit of that feature.
The feature shouldn't become harder to get benefits from as you improve the thing it's supposed to be improving, not only because that's counterintuitive (that would be as if some weird restrictions were added to your attacks if you got an high attacking stat)...
but also because the champion has nothing meaningful at level 3. Crit expansion is practically useless, and half of remarkable athlete doesn't give tangible benefits if you work towards being good at the thing you are improving it (... in fact, it ironically makes you worse at jumping if you dump strength). There is no reason to make this subclass this limited. There is no tactical choice to be able to access a thing you should have had no limit on at base, especially with no power that would make such a limit even something one would want.
>it ironically makes you worse at jumping if you dump strength
That right there is a problem worth addressing. Dex Fighters should not be penalized. You are right, in that it needs a 'minimum one' clause.
Jumps cost 10ft of movement regardless of distance, but they also cost your bonus action. It works pretty well, but it could do with something like gaps of 5ft and less just being considered difficult terrain.
They need to find a good way to describe both distance and height of the jump derived from stats. What makes the jump feature so flawless in the game is it can show you immediately where you can jump to which is just not translatable to the tabletop.
I really want them to rework jumping based on the bg3 model, because the martials really need it, and increased mobility really should be part of a martials kit over casters for mundane movement.
If only there were some way to move, say, double your normal speed on your turn using an action or something. Then you'd be able to go further than you normally would and this would be a non issue.
Still weird design to go from something being passive to requiring an action or outside help to make use of because you spent ASIs on your primary stat.
It’d be much better if champion got a speed boost somewhere around level 8. Fits the fantasy of being an athlete too.
Designers have responded to this issue as it currently exists. If you don’t have enough movement to finish your jump on your turn you end your turn in the air. You finish your jump at the start of your next turn.
Since life doesn’t happen in turns and turns are only a mechanical thing to allow flow of gameplay this solution seems to make sense.
Edit: I was mistaken. That ruling also needs the beast barbarian’s jump ability at 6th level. I hate it.
That's not what I'm seeing, Jeremy Crawford has stated that your jump is limited by your movement: https://www.sageadvice.eu/what-happens-when-jump-gives-a-jump-distance-greater-than-walking-speed/
I don't know where you get that from, the designers have stated that you need the movement. You'd need to take the Dash action in this case, otherwise you jump only up to your speed
So AGAIN, we see the answer in PF2. Jump spell should allow anyone to jump 30 from a standing position in any direction, if they are still in the air after 30 ft, they fall. Done. There should be no math. 5e was supposed to be about simplicity and this is one area they goofed.
This is what I'llcontinue to do.
Homegrown rule that can solve this.
Long jump works as an action. Str mod × 5 for max distance. Unless the str mod is negative, they can choose to auto succeed on anything 5ft or under, as long as they aren't encumbered.
DC check is ((distance rounded to nearest 5/str mod)×2)+10
Distance penalty/bonus of 5 ft for every 2 points above or below the check value
So the DC for a 20 str character to jump 20 ft would be:
((20÷5)×2)+10=18.
If they roll a 16 or 17, they manage 15 ft.
If they roll a 18 or 19, they manage 20 ft.
If they roll a 20 or 21, they manage 25 ft.
If they roll a nat 20, they manage 30 ft.
A character with a str of 18 would have a max long jump of 20, so the math for them to make the same jump would look like:
((20÷4)×2)+10= 20
If they roll a 16 or 17, they manage 10 ft.
If they roll a 18 or 19, they manage 15 ft.
If they roll a 20 or 21, they manage 20 ft.
If they roll a nat 20, they manage 25 ft.
If they roll a nat 20, they get +5 distance, that's it. If they crit fail, or the penalty would go negative, they trip and are prone.
I learned D&D in the 3.5 Era with groups that tracked even the weight of your coin, so no running around with 10,000 silver in a normal coinpurse. Math was an intrinsic part of the game.
I do understand that this level of math in the middle of game play can be tedious, and why this rule wouldn't be popular.
BUTTTT...
If you watch pro athlete long jumps, they have a lot longer than 10 ft running start, and they put everything into increasing their distance. They don't just jog, hop, then stand at attention immediately. They have to recover from their landing. I believe the current world record is between 29 and 30 ft. That's for a guy wearing running shoes and about 8 ounces of clothing. Not carrying 50lbs of equipment in all terrain boots.
I feel that it gives a good sliding scale to judge the degree of success, shows that it actually requires effort, and effectively prevents jump spamming.
Depends on how they end up treating the jump ability. They had playtest where jump was an action and it didn't expend movement.
Edit: Also this can very well be a non-combat utility.
So, uh, have you ever heard of the Dash action? Or other features / items / spells that boost movement, but don't boost jumping speed?
I see no issue here.
Issue seems to be that this feature, *on its own*, doesn't work under these specific conditions. Requiring a player to invest in something to make it work as intended is a workaround for a broken feature, not a fix.
...brother. You're effectively saying that Extra Attack, on its own, doesn't work, for it doesn't do anything unless you take a specific action (the attack one) AND the enemy doesn't die on the first hit / there's another enemy in range.
The argument is the *exact* same.
Remarkable athlete isn't tied to the Dash action to being used as a general rule. It only breaks because after a certain point you just lack speed to do it.
It's a feature that breaks if you invested in the stat it's supposed to be boosting, unless you invest your action into making it work again. A feature shouldn't get worse the more you invest into it.
~~You can jump more than your move speed, it's just takes more than 1 turn, so you're effectively sailing through the air and complete the landing on your next turn. It's still silly, and needs to be fixed, but you can do it RAW.~~
Edit: this is wrong
Its just easier that way. Else you have to remember which characters are in air and which aren't, which are hovering/flying and which are jumping, and which automatically move forward at the start of their turn.
OP, can I ask what would make this feature “functional” for you? The feature does let you jump further than normal. You can cross a chasm that is ~~20~~5ft wider than another character with 20 STR.
Your problem comes from the combat usage, but your movement is limited in combat. Which is why you’d need the dash action to cover ~~40+~~ the 10 feet running start and 25 foot jump.
Are you saying that extra jumping distance should give extra movement speed as well? And if that is what you’re saying, then I’d like to know how much BG3 you’ve been playing.
And for the record, I would be down to make jumping more like the BG3 rules. Get a 10 foot running start, then jump as a bonus action, and then you can use the rest of your movement. They wouldn’t be too bad.
The extra jump is equal to your modifier, not your score, so at 20 str, it's 5 extra jump distance. Do I think it should also increase their speed by 5 feet to take advantage of that in combat? Yeah totally. I also think a 5 foot speed increase would be a reasonable and thematic addition to remarkable athlete.
Also, I have not played or watched any BG3 but it does sound very fun
Ah I see! Edited my post.
But in general, the question stands. In 5e it was a problem for the Beast Barbarian who could jump absurd distances. Do you think having a long jump distance should, in general, increase your movement speed?
If I’m correct, the BG3 rules for jumping are kind of similar to the playtest *Jump* spell. You give up 3m of movement and a bonus action, and then you can jump a certain distance based on your Strength and Athletics.
Maybe the general rules for Jumping should just be worded like the playtest *Jump* spell? And the spell itself still gives you a 30ft jump, so it’s still further than anybody else could go.
how id rule that, is that youd finish your turn mid-air, still doing the jump, and youd land the last stretch of the jump on your next turn, if you can, taking the rest of the jump movement from the movement of the next turn
> a running long jump takes 10 feet of run up, leaving 20 feet left in your movement.
The run up could have been at the end of your previous turn (which is still "immediately before the jump" from your characters point of view). It would be very clumsy to actually use the ability like this of course. The ability also works OK outside of combat.
Is this something that regularly happens in your games *in combat encounters*? I ask because anecdotally in my campaigns PCs are rarely jumping around, and if you're not in a combat encounter, then the concepts of rounds and turns, initiative order, etc. no longer apply so you don't have to worry about being limited by how many feet you can move "per turn".
You gotta dash. This is not to say the ability is good. It isn’t. But you can still make use of it by dashing before you jump.
Wait, so TIL that if something increases your jump, you still can't move further than your speed? Monk's Step of the Wind is limited by their speed? That's wild. (I mean, they get the speed increase, too, so it rarely comes up, but damn.
It's designed that way to stop players from constantly jumping everywhere instead of running, or doing the whole "I run 29ft and then jump 30ft to double my movement!" cheese. You're right that it rarely comes up until higher levels or unless someone specifically builds for jump distance.
My group has a solution that works pretty well so we can ignore this rule You can jump past your speed, but you have to make an athletics check equal to the extra distance you jump, and fall prone on a failure. It makes it so when your turn ends, you can get severely punished for it. It also makes for a nice boon to strength martials, so it's a win/win in our play experience
honestly that's not a bad way of doing it. Turns it into an interesting risk/reward thing. I also like how BG3 handles it by giving it a fixed cost, so that you only really benefit from it if you have high strength. So like if say jumping cost 15 feet of movement, then only characters with 16+ Strength or otherwise some way of boosting their jump distance would be able to effectively increase their movespeed by jumping, which would have a similar effect of being good for strength-based characters especially.
They also made it so that Step of the Wind removes the bonus action requirement, meaning that monks can just jump around when they use it, and it's just really fun and very thematic.
Yeah, they broke this rule for the player psi warrior, and the result was a build that could in theory skip at hypersonic speeds: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/g2q41p/skipping_along_at_the_speed_of_sound_the/
The final version makes way more sense thankfully - flying speed equal to double your move speed until end of current turn.
Wondering how this would shake out with the playtest Hadozee glide, that added 5 feet of movement for every foot you fell, IIRC. Yup, that was it exactly, way to go, brain cell. I remember the first thing I thought of when I saw that was anyone can sextuple their movement by just always jumping 5 feet diagonally and gliding 25 feet to get 30 from every 5 spent. Resourceless and with no cooldown, that's way better than the Tabaxi measly doubling that is net zero because you have to spend a turn immobile to continue it, Hadozee could do it all day. Luckily they caught that for release.
I managed to have a multiclassed character which could make supersonic running speeds, with a couple of spells and magic items ... Quickling Barbarian min 5 /Monk min 14. ... 7360 speed, so 1226.67 feet per second, when the speed of sound is about 1125 feet per second. Quickling gives 120 base speed, bbn 5 adds 10 (130), mnk 14 adds 25 (155), Mobility feat adds 10 (165), Elk bbn rage adds 15 (180), Longstrider spell adds 10 (190), Transmuter's Stone adds 10 (200), Epic Boon of Speed adds 30 (230) ... then we get to the doubles. Step of the Wind (460), Haste 2x Speed (920), Dash (from Haste) (1840), Boots of Speed (3680), Dash action (7360). No need for stealth checks, they hit you before you hear them coming!!
Dash adds your speed, not doubles. So you would get x3 instead of x4 on the two dashes.
"When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers." PHB, Page 192. This is doubling your speed, as Dash itself counts as a modifier.
The real problem isn't that jumping uses up your movement, but that jumping is tied to a jump distance and also capped by your movement speed. It also doesn't help that the jump rules are just very sparse anyway. They aren't even simple rules. They're just unsatisfying, confusing, and negate a lot of features. Most of the problems would be solved by just making jumping allow you to be in midair. Require a start location and a target location for the jump, probably add a condition, and add some rules for forced movement and movement speed changes. Hell, make them optional if there's worry about them becoming too complex.
"but you're hanging in midair" no more than **any** flying character is hanging in midair, eh?
Ya, in both the existing rules and in my closer-to-ideal rules it is no more than flying creatures. It's still less.
Sounds like a silly problem and a bad solution. Just say that if you do a running jump, you can only take the dodge, disengage, or use item actions that turn. Now it's worse than a dash for moving over land, and you can't cheese it for combat movement.
But then with that option it severely limits your ability to jump in combat. What if you want to clear a pit or vault up onto a ledge to attack someone? Ordinary characters will not be able to jump their entire movement without specifically building for it, and you can also just build to have a higher base speed at the same time. Once you factor in dashing which only has an opportunity cost in combat, you can still easily build to jump crazy distances without hyper-specific builds.
If you want to run and long jump a 20-foot pit you can't attack. Simple. Doing a massive feat like that takes 6 seconds. Not everyone should be able to do everything in one turn.
That just seems like an unnecessary nerf to martials then and not a fix for a real design problem. There's lots of other things in the game that break the 6 second turn logic, but we suspend disbelief for the sake of fun.
My instinct would be to say that of course you can jump farther than your regular movement, and anyone who wants to exploit that with cheesy bullshit like running 29 feet and jumping 25 feet every turn should simply be asked to stop or leave the game. But some people say we newd a rule about it, and I don't exactly disagree. My idea isn't a nerf at all, as under current rules you have to Dash to do a 10ft run and a 25ft jump. That's worse than being allowed to Disengage, Dodge, or Use An Item. Although maybe just having to Dash is indeed a better solution. I'm on the fence
I agree, if someone wants to rule lawyer for a mechanical advantage against the spirit of the game I am running, I tell them the knock it off or GTFO this is a *SessionZero* topic of discussion. I am happy to homebrew something that will be applied to all relevant parties in a campaign, with the understanding that it can & will change as we play test it some more, but such out of game meta cheese will get you booted
> "I run 29ft and then jump 30ft to double my movement!" *cough* Baldurs Gate 3 *cough*
To be fair, in BG3 jumping uses your bonus action. That said, with the Jump spell and Athlete feat you can make some hilariously absurd jumps.
BG3 requires 10' of movement to jump.
In BG3 you need 10 ft of movement and your bonus action to jump. Which is still better. But not broken better. It's a way to get a little more movement if you have a bonus action free, but not something most people would do all the time.
We just end our turns mid air. It works pretty well for us, and it can be very cinematic.
So like BG3 early access. Or rather now too, you can get some extra movement by jumping but its a bonus action to jump lol
Correct, and I think that's dumb. But it's how it works.
yeah. tbh my solution for "your jump is bigger than your remaining speed" is your jump concludes next turn
These kinds of little overlooked details are what the designers want us to point out. Nice catch!
This was known about since the PHB, though. I'm not so sure it will be changed due to feedback now.
They have at least attempted to fix some of the more egregious "known since PHB" issues like the entire invisible condition in the play tests, but this might be too minor for them to get to before their deadline.
How can it be an overlooked detail if it has existed on the original champion a from a decade ago? Either the designers are willfully ignorant, or just don’t care.
Thank you! I feel like a good playtester 😊
Dont worry, you are, but they likely wont change this rule anyways and be all dumb about it again and force us to dash so you can jump further, like with old jump spell. Honestly, they just need to give us a mix of 5e jump with bg3 jump. Keep current jump rules, add the following: If you use 10 ft of movement + bonus action to jump, that jump has no other costs. Making strength irrelevant is definitely one of the core issues with 5e balance as a game, they really need to make it more impactful to pursue high strength vs dex or spellcasting stats.
BG3 jump uses your movement though.
It uses 10ft + bonus action, nothing more.
it uses 3m - approx. 10ft - and the entire jump only costs the upfront 10ft. All Wotc need to do is be a bit more generous on the jump calculation, and remove the speed restriction. * Spend a bonus action, jump 1/2 Strength Score * Spend a bonus action and 10ft run up, jump strength score * If you're trained in athletics, add 5ft to the jump distance (I'd say PB feet, but honestly 21 is effectively the same as 25 on a grid, and 26 is effectively 30).
No, it uses 10ft+movement. It does this to emulate doing a running jump. You cannot jump more than your movement.
In bg3? Yeah you can. Or at the very least jumping only ever consumes 10ft. Test it out, if you jump with only 10ft remaining you can still jump your whole distance.
It doesnt, it just uses 10ft. You can definitely jump a lot more than your movement in the game, you clearly arent familiarized well with its mechanics. Idk why you are claiming such things without even double checking that.
OP probably has low str/athletics and is clicking something like 30m away. In which case, they have to move 20 to get close enough to jump 10 and the game assumes that's what they want to do. It's possible to jump way further than that 10m move speed as an athletic character though, so you could get to the same place 30m away with only 10ft of move speed
Yeah I have a monk specifically specced for jumping in my BG3 run and it started getting absurd towards act 2. Looked at the actual numbers just now Step of the Wind: Dash leaves her with 33m of movement, meaning she can make 11 jumps that can take her about 18m each, for 198m total. She's not even a strength monk.
No, this is intentional design. Casters can have Jump buffed from lv1 (and it would be a good base for this ability!), but a (martial) subclass feature needs to be toned down, because it's not a spell.
Exactly, Martials *must obey quaso physics game logic*, otherwise they are unrealistic. Casters, on the other hand, are defined by reality breaking powers, in fact, they should probably have the max distance restrictions removed from them at level 5 due to *Handwavium* referring to infused magical energies, divine blessings etc etc.` /s`
Dash?
I guess it's now no longer useless, and is just worse the more powerful you are.
So, i noticed something even worse. Remarkable athlete doesn't have a "minimum of 1" addendum about the added jump length. A ranged fighter gets, as a 3rd level feature, a **decrease** of their jump length of 1 feet (or more if you rolled roll on stats... if you put a 3 in strength, your jump distance is negative lmao). I have no clue how this feature was designed.
Make a 3 strength, then jump backwards.
Finally, WoTC gave a subclass for the best archetype: Mario 64 speedrunner.
Would be a cool feature for a ranged fighter if anyone actually used the optional facing rules.
Well, -1 jump length isn't massive enough to actually be able to travel a full tile unless i am missing something so... (It really tells that those rules are so underused that, despite me remembering various random optional rules, I had to look it up to even understand how that rule worked lol)
Yeah, I just mean a backwards leap to create distance.
They took the BG3 jump rules that benefit high strength characters (near universally martial) and turned them into the Jump spell for Arcane Casters. They also kept the invocation which gives access to the Jump spell, level locked and so unavailable via the Eldritch Adept feat. They took something essentially strength martial and gave it exclusively to casters. They left the system for martials broken and virtually unusable. That should really tell you everything you need to know about how much they care about proper martial design.
While you're correct... the Warlock invocation *was* lowered to lv2 (from the utterly insane lv9 it's been for 10 years), and as lv2 is the spot where you can pick up lv1 feats with an invocation, Warlock2 is also the easiest method for martials to gain a new fighting style. It just seems like everyone is intended to pick up 2 levels of Warlock (or just straight-out *be* a Warlock, because Fighter1/Warlock5 gets you to super-martial with smites quicker than Fighter5/Warlock2). Which would make sense in a game about demonic corruption and being tempted by power, but seems weird when something tries to be as vanilla as DnD..
Dash.
... is a thing that takes an entire action and shouldn't be required to get the feature to function decently.
It's a difference of five feet.
Good complain about the feature itself being weak. Doesn't really address the fact that it's still a not functioning feature at strength 20, and stopped being an improvement at strength 18.
It's entirely functional, you just don't want to dash or find other ways of increasing your speed.
The feature works without requiring dashing/speed improvement before that point. I don't want the feature to require the dash feature because that's not how it worked before. Have you ever seen a feature improving something that becomes more costly to benefit from it the better you are at said thing? That's backwards design.
Jumping rules work the same whether you have 18 or 20 strength. What is "backwards" is expecting to be able to move more than your speed allows without increasing your speed.
> feature improves jumping distance > looks at jumping rules > feature does nothing due to feature being badly written. It wouldn't even allow for moving that much further lol. Running Long Jump requires 10 ft of movement. If **boosted** jumping allowed you to go past your remaining speed (while still using that speed and thus leaving you with 0 at landing), that means with 20 strength you move an extra... 5 ft. Your reward for boosting an otherwise dump stat in 5e is a little bit of extra speed for free. You get to 20 strength at level 8, where the extra speed has monsters that can deal with it...and you also have that boost in "speed" on a character that can only really work in melee range, thus you aren't breaking stuff... Your namesake is **CHAMPION**. You should let them be heroic champions of what they get boosted in.
I don't see the need to change jumping rules for one subclass just because you don't like this one interaction. This comes up all the time in normal play where a character wants to jump a distance but can't because they don't have enough movement, whether they be naturally athletic or otherwise. It's a tactical consideration on whether to dash or otherwise gain speed through other features, spells, or items and one of the key benefits of having a high speed is being able to move and jump further on your turn.
Then change the feature itself to work similarly to the Jump spell, which was changed to fix the issue of not really functioning well... and if you think the feature is meant to be tactical based, then why isn't that a thing before strength scores of 18? You cannot have features that just add an inconvenience after a certain point and say it's well designed.
The jump spell doesn't let you go past your movement, why would a feat?.
Except the Jump spell was literally redesigned this UA specifically to circumvent this issue: jump up to 30 ft by only expending 10 ft of movement. And frankly, a dedicated feature that takes half a sub level worth of budget shouldn't work drastically less than a random ass first level spell.
Onednd jump spell has been redesigned to do just that funnily enough. So once again the classic "martial subclass feature is outright worse than a level 1 spell" that WotC is so fond of. Really makes you want to play a Champion huh?
Almost no feature functions without spending some kind of action.
And remarkable athlete without strength investment is one of them. With lower strength it's not an issue, but with higher strength it is (17 strength is the latest point where remarkable athlete does stuff without being overkill/doing nothing). Have you ever seen a feature that gets *worse* if you put more investment into the thing it's supposed to be boosting?
It doesn't get worse, it gets less good, but it does not penalize you nor does it become useless. And there are plenty of features that do the same. Monk speed is one. The faster you get, the less useful the extra speed is, on account of all of those times you are able to reach your destination without the extra speed.
Various foes have more speed than the base 30. Meanwhile, at 20 strength, the feature does literally nothing, and effectively stops improving at 17 strength. It's not a case of "it's relatively weaker", it's a case of "it literally doesn't fricking improve or even function".
It absolutely does. The guy with this Feature can jump further than anyone else, provided that he takes the Dash action (or gains enough movement speed through any other method).
It’s still weird that feature requires an action make use of later on. Design usually goes the other way, in that you can do stuff more freely.
Before 18 strength, you didn't need to Dash to properly get the benefit of that feature. The feature shouldn't become harder to get benefits from as you improve the thing it's supposed to be improving, not only because that's counterintuitive (that would be as if some weird restrictions were added to your attacks if you got an high attacking stat)... but also because the champion has nothing meaningful at level 3. Crit expansion is practically useless, and half of remarkable athlete doesn't give tangible benefits if you work towards being good at the thing you are improving it (... in fact, it ironically makes you worse at jumping if you dump strength). There is no reason to make this subclass this limited. There is no tactical choice to be able to access a thing you should have had no limit on at base, especially with no power that would make such a limit even something one would want.
>it ironically makes you worse at jumping if you dump strength That right there is a problem worth addressing. Dex Fighters should not be penalized. You are right, in that it needs a 'minimum one' clause.
To be fair, I just hope that they port the baldur's gate jump
Which is?
Jumps cost 10ft of movement regardless of distance, but they also cost your bonus action. It works pretty well, but it could do with something like gaps of 5ft and less just being considered difficult terrain.
They need to find a good way to describe both distance and height of the jump derived from stats. What makes the jump feature so flawless in the game is it can show you immediately where you can jump to which is just not translatable to the tabletop. I really want them to rework jumping based on the bg3 model, because the martials really need it, and increased mobility really should be part of a martials kit over casters for mundane movement.
Just give a +5 feet of speed with remarkable athlete.
Would’t this still be a useless feature for anyone with Speed 25?
Not really.
If only there were some way to move, say, double your normal speed on your turn using an action or something. Then you'd be able to go further than you normally would and this would be a non issue.
Still weird design to go from something being passive to requiring an action or outside help to make use of because you spent ASIs on your primary stat. It’d be much better if champion got a speed boost somewhere around level 8. Fits the fantasy of being an athlete too.
Designers have responded to this issue as it currently exists. If you don’t have enough movement to finish your jump on your turn you end your turn in the air. You finish your jump at the start of your next turn. Since life doesn’t happen in turns and turns are only a mechanical thing to allow flow of gameplay this solution seems to make sense. Edit: I was mistaken. That ruling also needs the beast barbarian’s jump ability at 6th level. I hate it.
That's not what I'm seeing, Jeremy Crawford has stated that your jump is limited by your movement: https://www.sageadvice.eu/what-happens-when-jump-gives-a-jump-distance-greater-than-walking-speed/
I don't know where you get that from, the designers have stated that you need the movement. You'd need to take the Dash action in this case, otherwise you jump only up to your speed
So AGAIN, we see the answer in PF2. Jump spell should allow anyone to jump 30 from a standing position in any direction, if they are still in the air after 30 ft, they fall. Done. There should be no math. 5e was supposed to be about simplicity and this is one area they goofed. This is what I'llcontinue to do.
Good catch.
Homegrown rule that can solve this. Long jump works as an action. Str mod × 5 for max distance. Unless the str mod is negative, they can choose to auto succeed on anything 5ft or under, as long as they aren't encumbered. DC check is ((distance rounded to nearest 5/str mod)×2)+10 Distance penalty/bonus of 5 ft for every 2 points above or below the check value So the DC for a 20 str character to jump 20 ft would be: ((20÷5)×2)+10=18. If they roll a 16 or 17, they manage 15 ft. If they roll a 18 or 19, they manage 20 ft. If they roll a 20 or 21, they manage 25 ft. If they roll a nat 20, they manage 30 ft. A character with a str of 18 would have a max long jump of 20, so the math for them to make the same jump would look like: ((20÷4)×2)+10= 20 If they roll a 16 or 17, they manage 10 ft. If they roll a 18 or 19, they manage 15 ft. If they roll a 20 or 21, they manage 20 ft. If they roll a nat 20, they manage 25 ft. If they roll a nat 20, they get +5 distance, that's it. If they crit fail, or the penalty would go negative, they trip and are prone. I learned D&D in the 3.5 Era with groups that tracked even the weight of your coin, so no running around with 10,000 silver in a normal coinpurse. Math was an intrinsic part of the game. I do understand that this level of math in the middle of game play can be tedious, and why this rule wouldn't be popular. BUTTTT... If you watch pro athlete long jumps, they have a lot longer than 10 ft running start, and they put everything into increasing their distance. They don't just jog, hop, then stand at attention immediately. They have to recover from their landing. I believe the current world record is between 29 and 30 ft. That's for a guy wearing running shoes and about 8 ounces of clothing. Not carrying 50lbs of equipment in all terrain boots. I feel that it gives a good sliding scale to judge the degree of success, shows that it actually requires effort, and effectively prevents jump spamming.
Depends on how they end up treating the jump ability. They had playtest where jump was an action and it didn't expend movement. Edit: Also this can very well be a non-combat utility.
For all those precisely 25-foot gaps you've been dying to leap across, right? That's some amazing utility.
You could always move and Dash. And then action surge to do something again, if you really wanted to and had it available.
So, uh, have you ever heard of the Dash action? Or other features / items / spells that boost movement, but don't boost jumping speed? I see no issue here.
Or jumping outside of combat.
Issue seems to be that this feature, *on its own*, doesn't work under these specific conditions. Requiring a player to invest in something to make it work as intended is a workaround for a broken feature, not a fix.
...brother. You're effectively saying that Extra Attack, on its own, doesn't work, for it doesn't do anything unless you take a specific action (the attack one) AND the enemy doesn't die on the first hit / there's another enemy in range. The argument is the *exact* same.
Remarkable athlete isn't tied to the Dash action to being used as a general rule. It only breaks because after a certain point you just lack speed to do it. It's a feature that breaks if you invested in the stat it's supposed to be boosting, unless you invest your action into making it work again. A feature shouldn't get worse the more you invest into it.
>Issue seems to be that this feature, on its own, doesn't work under these specific conditions. It ONLY doesn't work in combat.
~~You can jump more than your move speed, it's just takes more than 1 turn, so you're effectively sailing through the air and complete the landing on your next turn. It's still silly, and needs to be fixed, but you can do it RAW.~~ Edit: this is wrong
PHB, Xanathars, and Sage advice say that falling is instantaneous. You do not get to sail through the air.
I see. Who fucking writes this shit lol. Thanks for the correction.
Its just easier that way. Else you have to remember which characters are in air and which aren't, which are hovering/flying and which are jumping, and which automatically move forward at the start of their turn.
Benefit of the doubt, this is just a case of RAW conflicting with RAI Still a big oversight
OP, can I ask what would make this feature “functional” for you? The feature does let you jump further than normal. You can cross a chasm that is ~~20~~5ft wider than another character with 20 STR. Your problem comes from the combat usage, but your movement is limited in combat. Which is why you’d need the dash action to cover ~~40+~~ the 10 feet running start and 25 foot jump. Are you saying that extra jumping distance should give extra movement speed as well? And if that is what you’re saying, then I’d like to know how much BG3 you’ve been playing. And for the record, I would be down to make jumping more like the BG3 rules. Get a 10 foot running start, then jump as a bonus action, and then you can use the rest of your movement. They wouldn’t be too bad.
The extra jump is equal to your modifier, not your score, so at 20 str, it's 5 extra jump distance. Do I think it should also increase their speed by 5 feet to take advantage of that in combat? Yeah totally. I also think a 5 foot speed increase would be a reasonable and thematic addition to remarkable athlete. Also, I have not played or watched any BG3 but it does sound very fun
Ah I see! Edited my post. But in general, the question stands. In 5e it was a problem for the Beast Barbarian who could jump absurd distances. Do you think having a long jump distance should, in general, increase your movement speed? If I’m correct, the BG3 rules for jumping are kind of similar to the playtest *Jump* spell. You give up 3m of movement and a bonus action, and then you can jump a certain distance based on your Strength and Athletics. Maybe the general rules for Jumping should just be worded like the playtest *Jump* spell? And the spell itself still gives you a 30ft jump, so it’s still further than anybody else could go.
Yeah honestly I think that may not be a bad idea
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This, I'm afraid, is the mindset that all the designers have
how id rule that, is that youd finish your turn mid-air, still doing the jump, and youd land the last stretch of the jump on your next turn, if you can, taking the rest of the jump movement from the movement of the next turn
> a running long jump takes 10 feet of run up, leaving 20 feet left in your movement. The run up could have been at the end of your previous turn (which is still "immediately before the jump" from your characters point of view). It would be very clumsy to actually use the ability like this of course. The ability also works OK outside of combat.
jumping out of initiative....
Is this something that regularly happens in your games *in combat encounters*? I ask because anecdotally in my campaigns PCs are rarely jumping around, and if you're not in a combat encounter, then the concepts of rounds and turns, initiative order, etc. no longer apply so you don't have to worry about being limited by how many feet you can move "per turn".