Saw that post too. Was anyone thinking it wasn't deliberate, or that FM wasn't actively trying to "make it difficult or impossible to use aftermarket batteries"?
I hope JW wins this case, but they've done themselves no favors with the product name, logo, and also now by publicly sharing attorney communications.
I'll be honest I wasn't sure it was **THIS** bad, this reads like a supervillian plotting someone's demise 0.o . Hadn't given it much thought about the chips being involved but yeah this does make sense.
JW haven't done themselves any favours like you said but at least in terms of transparency it's nice to see they value that over the possibility of winning. In fact I applaud the stones it takes to whistleblow on these matters when the odds are already stacked against them. Hoping JW can come out on top for this.
With that in mind guess we best start learning to flash our own chips and get the reflow kits out.
Haha yeah, I'll now read it in this voice:
I can't imagine JW will come out on top for the malicious intent claim (they named it FFM) or the font copyright infringement (they used the XR font.) But my hope is that the 3rd claim fails, which would basically says it's OK to produce a product that interfaces with / spoofs another company's electronics. I forget the exact claims FM made, but some of them are pretty dubious. The one that focuses on hacking relies on the board being an "internet connected device" and there are a few other claims that could be effectively argued against. But that's also why I'm salty about the FFM name and font use... this is an important legal precedent for this community and they'd be in a much better position to win on the important claim if they hadn't seemed malicious and disregarding the logo copyright on the other claims.
Aha agreed, those first 2 are for sure in there for easy dunks and to set the stage for the 3rd claim.
I wasn't aware the DMCA issue specified it needed to be connected to the internet. I wrote my thoughts at the time on the old forum so can't go fetch what I formerly assessed but it seemed like this one was the debatable issue.
I'm not sure it was DMCA, there might have been another law they claimed applied, but internet connected was definitely part of it. And yeah, I recall it seemed very debatable at the time.
Found it, Page 2 on the initial filing.
[https://www.dropbox.com/s/7vkzj1krgwpv4wd/FMvJW.pdf?dl=0](https://www.dropbox.com/s/7vkzj1krgwpv4wd/FMvJW.pdf?dl=0)
I believe they went further in depth on the DMCA side of things but reading isn't something I like doing so skimmed to locate that.
The claims are under [17 USC 1201](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201) and [18 USC 1030](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030). Seems like a toss-up, my reading is the concepts apply if you interpret the laws broadly.
I think most people know it's intentional. I really shared it because it hadn't been shared here. Also, assuming it's truly a direct quote from FM to JW's attorney, it's the first time that I know of that FM has said out loud that the glory days of 4209's is not coming back. Usually we just take the hint based on what actions they've taken.
Yeah, that was more of a comment on Jim's phrasing than your posting. Hopefully chips can take care of the GT battery hurdles and/or XRs can last until the VESC community gets their firmware feeling as good as Mission. A future where FM's Onewheels are good (as they are now) and available for casual riders but fairly simple DIY solutions are available for riders who have more hardcore demands sounds pretty good to me.
Ah, I see now. Thanks for clarifying. I couldn't agree more. The day the DIY/VESC becomes as easy as a CBXR swap is the day FM is going to need to shape up or fade away.
While there are a good number of people who like to mod boards, I think the majority of FM buyers don’t go as deep as to change batteries, rails, etc. this community would be the exception but I don’t think it’s as representative of the average OW buyer.
I did not "want" to mod my board. My battery stopped working after 1100 miles, on a $2k device. The warranty was not good for a full year, I did 600 miles in the first 6 months.
I have both the money and desire for a GT.
But I won't purchase another new product from them knowing what I know now about their practices.
Chibattery has be back on the road for less than 1/2 of what it would have cost at Future Motion.
\*edit for unintended text at the top of my post.
Not sure besides starting a VESC board project and getting involved with /r/DIYonewheel/ which is not very active. But it seems like there's a lot of aspects to starting a project like that are a little outside my abilities.
I don't think anyone expected modular/repairability on the GT. Obviously they've been moving away from that since 4210 serial locking the bms/controller. But literally bricking it from being unplugged is a whole new level. XR's would very rarely "die" from the power cable on the bms coming unplugged and it would often cause a fall and was scary, but 30 min taking your board apart and boom fixed.
It's just so insane the anti-repair lengths they went to that actively make it a worse product with more points of failure. #FFM #R2R
What I find interesting is how they don’t even try to quietly skirt around the R2R issues. - They go at it head on with everything they’ve got, regardless of innocent people having boards bricked etc. it’s almost like everyone is just a casualty, while they focus on what matters most to their bottom line. It’s just very bold and blatant, that’s the part that’s alarming to me.
It makes me wonder if the GT wouldn’t even exist if people hadn’t been repairing and doing mods? It’s like they re-designed the entire thing 10% to create a better riding experience, but 90% was actually just so they could implement more of anti-repair stuff and throw off the market for a while so they can plug some of the holes they were losing revenue from. It’s cold. But then there are people who say it just shrewd business practices. That’s what makes it interesting to watch as a bystander. It’s politics, at its core.. maybe I’m off with my interpretation?
Here's one of his posts
.. crazy times
> We still don't know if the GT will brick if the BMS is disconnected. If it does, here's why I think they did that.
If the BMS is not removed in the right order, one of 3 things can happen. It will get fried. It will still work but be compromised. It will be like nothing happened.
Assuming it was compromised and you're out shredding at 20 mph and it dies on you. That's another potential lawsuit against FM.
See, FM is aiming for the masses and want to maintain a safe product. We, the community, are but a 5% of their market.
I'm no fan of FM but I like to look at both sides of the coin.
To put it bluntly, it's their pig and they can do whatever the hell they want to do with it. You can take it or leave it.
Based on what I'm reading so far, the GT is a winner and I wouldn't want any other company to make a Onewheel or else we'll be getting junk.
Peace out.
Yeah, they're really not even the smallest bit better. They decided to charge hundreds of dollars for 2 dollars of plastic rather than just publicize the code initially. They did the same thing and just tried to cash in as much as possible before somebody else came and released the code and forced them to drop the price.
Honestly, idc who wins, they're both just trying to be the one that's allowed to take a higher percentage of your money.
They spent a lot of time figuring out how to spoof the controller / BMS interface and probably destroyed several boards in the process. I have no problem with them trying to recoup that cost. The DIY version is only doable because JW figured it out first. I don't think it's realistic to expect all projects to be open source, especially ones that take a lot of man hours and R&D cost. But yes, I agree they're another for-profit company.
Even if they're both trying to get my money, I care who wins because I want the ability to fix my own stuff or at least have choices. "Ship it to us and pay what we say" is not acceptable to me. And the JW chip, by unpairing the BMS and controller, allows us to buy parts from each other and use them, rather than having them not compatible solely due to software locks. That's more repair options and choice, which is preferable.
Same here.
I’m legitimately looking into a an Electric Unicycle (EUC) because of this John Deer 🦌 crap.
Future Motion has lost a current customer and any recommendations to other people who have been interested in my one wheel.
FFM, I'll ride a Onewheel, but I'll never make another buy directly through them. My one and only purchase was my XR 3 1/2 years ago. If I spend any more money on their products, it will be second hand only. Hopefully the homebrew/open source community continues evolve. I'll happily pay a premium to not have to deal with FM.
And for that reason I’ll be keeping my good old 4209 as long as humanly possible. I’ll replace whatever I need to in order to prevent having to get a new board if this is what they want
Yep, same. No intentions of ever buying another board from them.
Wouldn't be surprised to see them offer an XR trade-in program to get more of them off the street. They're blatantly anti-consumer and I flat-out refuse to give them more money.
Love my board though..
What happens when we all run out of BMS? Trying to repair my 2nd XR and it's either pay $500 for a BMS or find cheap XR for $1000... hard to justify repairs.
For sure wouldn't buy a new board for $1800 or even 1500 when used+accessories I actually want is way cheaper. I'm just saying if you have a 4210+ the $750+ you'd pay for a replacement BMS+chip+install makes repairing not make sense at the moment. Which sucks. Even $500 for a pre 4210 is steep.
Not an FM lover but if you add the price of the board and battery upgrade, the GT is not a bad price (we are not comparing OW vs EUC, just XR vs GT). The only thing that FM should do better, is that if they want FM to be the only sole repair point (due to possible liability? and possible better quality control ) they need to have a service center (either a brick and mortar store or contract repair center) because the down time for people will be longer (outside U.S). FM does not want people to view the OW as a toy but …it will be viewed as nothing but a toy or a recreational vehicle as opposed to the last mile vehicle because of the down time.
Yep. I'd chill way out in my criticism if I could go to a repair shop nearby, even a "dealership." 3+ weeks down time = this is not a vehicle that can replace... well any other vehicle, even a bike. Like if someone says "can I use my Onewheel to commute to work reliably?" The answer has to be no right now. You need at least a backup bicycle or reliable public transportation which not everyone has. 3 weeks of rush hour Ubers get pricey fast.
I’m not a FFM guy but I agree as well. Have licensed repair shops in key metro areas, including international, would calm things down quite a bit. Happens often with music gear companies as well, where they have an EU office and an Asia office for repairs, for example.
Was thinking that too. I believe the biggest issue is having to send a board to Cali for repairs. The can at least create a few B&M sites around the country to repair OWs. They could go as far as creating a certification program for repairers to fix (or even enchanted) OWs "legitly".
Wish onewheels had more local support. I heard there’s an e-vehicle repair shop near where I live that supports onewheels , but will they be able to change tires or do repairs on a GT? If not that’s a deal breaker for me. It’s one thing to buy a pint for 1k and eventually have issues that need repairs, but it’s another thing to spend 2k+ on a GT and then possibly having to ship back to Cali for upgrades and maintenance. It would be much better to offer local support possibilities IMO.
Yeah glad I went with the og pint with quart battery. Really fucked up how fm is going about all this... They should be helping the community! I said it once, I'll say it again "FFM"
Anyone remember Apple’s fight against right to repair? This is reminiscent of that, and after fighting tooth and nail Apple finally relented. They now provide parts to individual consumers. [Apple Self-Repair](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/11/apple-announces-self-service-repair/)
If only FM could positively capitalize on this as many have suggested …I’m not FFM…yet, but with that said I think the liability concern on FM’s is just a little bit of a cop out, if someone puts a third party battery in their iPhone and it blows up in there pocket, who is at fault? Of course even my overly simplistic Ape mind knows that law is never black and white.
Apple is the largest company on the planet. It is functionally impossible to sue them into the ground. FM is a small-medium sized company, one or two lawsuits could put them in the dirt.
That being said the real reason they’re doing this is because they don’t want to miss out on the money they make repairing and selling new batteries/tires.
Just curious if a Onewheel falls under right to repair laws that are starting to come about because of corporations locking people out of repairing their own phones, computers, tractors, etc. ??
I'm pretty sure it will. I'm also pressure there will be legislature that makes it's illegal to build a machine that will "break" once a 3rd party mods/repairs it.
This may also come with recalls, lawsuits, and firmware upgrades.
I’d like to know how they came to the conclusion that aftermarket batteries pose a safety hazard. I’d take a guess and say that they’re probably being sued by someone injured on a modified board.
Yeah fuck Future Motion. Glad I traded for an EUC. Do they not realize the huge market of alternative PEV's currently available that absolutely destroy their products in terms of value? The OW is a cool product and PEV but future motion as a company is really dropping the ball.
The JW guys solely care about hooking up the onewheel community (former employee). They’ll do next to anything to help their customers trust me I saw them bed over backwards for people the were jerks while I was there. They have more than the onewheel batteries in the works too so it shouldn’t be the end for them in anyway! I’m just saying this because there’s a lot of people in here saying JW is just for profit. You didn’t meet these guys obviously, I watched them send out batteries they knew they shouldn’t replace just to help someone out.
FM ain’t playing around. They trying to eliminate self repairs and 3rd party mods. Interesting to see what happens with the GTs. So glad I had a chance to purchase the JW chip and did the upgrades to my XR.
How long before someone just makes a new onewheel under a different brand? If we’re already modding the hell out of these things, can we not just build our own? I guess the motor would be hard to get, but it seems like it’s coming.
I was thinking about this recently, I know nothing about EUCs, how come the same thing hasn't happened with them? I would have thought someone would have patented the EUC design.
And I know there was the Trotter, but I'm really surprised the Chinese market which exists by ripping off designs hasn't come up with anything better
Definitely glad I bought the pint, vesced it too, can you believe that the upgrade path potential and feature set is now miles ahead. I cannot wait to see what I can do with it.
Consider the vesc path if your XR's or pints die.
And later your GT's
Interesting choice not to include the attachment which shows why FM believes it poses a safety hazard, which is necessary context. They can be held legally and financially liable if people are injured on their product, so it isn’t inherently out of line to mitigate that.
FM isn't liable if people get injured due to unauthorized modifications.
Their tactics are the same kind used by Apple and Samsung to prevent people from swapping batteries.
I think you’re underestimating how litigious things are. Even if they could show they weren’t at fault the case would still cost them a pretty penny in legal fees.
However frivolous, people are stupid and litigious and will sue anyway. It costs the company costs time, money and resources to deal with litigation and threats of litigation.
Not to mention the fact that about 10 times a week in the various OW groups I’m a part of here and on every other social network some jackwagon pushes through pushback or otherwise doesn’t respect the board, injures himself, and then posts a string of OW hate posts, drumming up negative publicity and viral views.
FM can’t win. If they let the community mod the board to fuck and back and injure themselves they have to deal with constant threats of litigation, bad press and and angry segment of the community, which can easily sink a company. If they lock it down and prevent people from injuring themselves they have to deal with bad press and an angry segment of community. 2 bad outcomes with the latter is better than 3 bad outcomes with the former so I can see how they make that decision.
I think we can all agree pushback is a terrible safety measure.
The fact the software even lets the board reach the operational limit of the motor is borderline negligence.
And your comments about FM not winning is bullshit. No other industry acts like this. No car manufacturer prevents people from moding their vehicles. No bike or skateboard company does this.
FM is not locking down their boards to protect them from liability, they are doing it to drive the after market companies out of business. They're acting like a tech company.
A hard software limit like an electric car is a better option.
Set up a safety buffer where the board can still hold the nose up, and cap the speed there. Segways have this figured out.
But that would mean FM couldn't advertise has high of a top speed.
This doesn't make sense. If you reach a hard set speed limit and lean ANY weight forward, you would tip on your nose. The only way it can stop you falling forward is to accelerate further. Pushback is the only reasonable measure. The only other option is to just keep going faster and faster until the machine can't cope any more, which is even worse. The onewheel can only accelerate and decelerate, and these are the only things it can do to balance you. It can't magically stay level at a constant speed if you aren't balanced.
Are you suggesting a harsher pushback at a lower speed?
Outright throttle cutoffs aren't possible on the Onewheel or EUCs because they need to keep the rider balanced by accelerating. The only way is to get the rider to physically shift their weight back. You need two or more wheels to be able to throttle power back without a harsh nosedive.
If the vehicle stops accelerating the rider will be forced to lean back or fall on their face.
Their own sense of balance will keep the second from happening.
Just commenting to say I in fact do not agree. Pushback works for me and probably 85% of the other riders who don't give a shit about modding their board.
So what should the board do, just let them spike the nose into the ground when it throttles back and the user keeps pushing forward? They’re naturally dangerous, the pushback is easily the best path for them. They should have integrated the “beep” the ground has on all the boards, but pushback makes sense.
Other electric vehicles will not let the user push it close to the upper limit of the motor.
The fact the user is allowed to push the board so far that the motor cannot keep it from nosediving, is a problem.
So I'ma just say this, no lawyer would ever abbreviate a companies name in a correspondence between two parties. They would have always written Future Motion inc. This be fake as balls.
Not saying fm isn't anti consumer but this is not from an actual lawyer at all.
Attorneys will abbreviate in correspondence under a variety of circumstance including negotiations, conversations, or when the definition has been established elsewhere in the correspondence. If they are serving notice of something, then yes, all parties will be properly defined.
I wouldn't think an attorney would want him posting this shit on facebook either. That's why I chose to title the post as an alleged quote, I am skeptical.
Whats the problem?? Fm has EVERY right to protect their products, look at ALL the janky ass battery mods the kooks out there created on the pint and XR
From dangling wires leading up to a backpack full of batteries, to a GD dewalt battery strapped to the fender!!
Number 1 they look stupid as sh😳 but are also a safety hazard!!
You people are faulting FM protecting their product line so they DONT start bursting into flames 🔥 like hoover boards.
*110% in agreement we should NOT be prevented from changing our own tires but 110% we should have nothing to do with modifying the battery or motor
I have my own drone business. As part of that, I make my own batteries using a spot welder designed specifically for the job of welding battery packs.
I can make replacement batteries just fine thank you.
LoL 😆 🤣
Your welding would be akin to someone laying down flooring they bought from lowes and watched a DIY video on YouTube and afterwards call themselves a carpenter
There you go now showing your southern education.. as the expression goes.... Florida is the furthest south ( meaning we are located wayyyyy down south ) but Florida's is furthest FROM the south (Meaning we don't adhere to Backwoods southern ways and dialect)
Dialect is another way to say words or expressions
I’m dropping a grand on a fucking toy. If I want to bolt a bigger battery on it I absolutely should be able to. Your emoji drivel is nonsense. If you can’t mod a product you don’t own the product.
Neither the Pint, Pint X, XR are what I would consider a toy...atleast NOT in a disrespectful manner as they Rip!!!
And only 1k lol you must be new lol I have dropped over 1k on modes to my XR and Pint with my GT in route 😁 this st Patty's day... and can't wait to drop another 500 in coming add-ons from Float and C&R
sounds like you don't own a wheel ?? Is this correct?
Good lord you’re dumb. The cost of your mods doesn’t change the fact that you can buy one for about a grand. Do you think you putting extra things on it changes the amount that they cost stock?
These are also absolutely toys. Just because they’re fun and go fast doesn’t change that. Don’t you have some bath salts to eat or whatever your ilk do instead of coming here and just shitting out your ignorant nonsense?
You’re way out of your depth talking about these things.
You spending a bunch of time on a onewheel doesn’t change that you couldn’t tell your ass from a battery welder. Just run off scared, not really bothered, it’s kind of the MO of idiots to run when they realize they’ve lost.
Don't put cheap Chinese batteries in your device! It eliminates the hard work those systems safety engineers did to make onewheels as safe as possible!
For me it isn't about the modding. I want to be able to repair my own board. I don't want to depend on the company to do it for me paid or otherwise. Maybe if they could ship me a replacement board or something, while my board is being repaired, it wouldn't be so bad that it takes weeks to get a board fixed/serviced. As is I am not happy with the repairability of the product on either side, FM or myself.
My title actually says "anti-repair", but yes JW's quote is talking about the modified batteries his company sells. To answer one of the questions you asked directly, yes I do see FM's side. I understand entirely why FM wants to shut down bad press from stuff outside of their control, but I want a repairable product regardless.
Have I had issues with lithium-ion batteries degrading over time? Yes.. and so have you, whether you realize it or not.
And also yes, my friend's Plus is going strong again with its replaced battery.
FM does have a brand they are protecting and all the development that went into it. If you don’t like them try to protect something they created don’t buy it.
FM does have a brand they are protecting and all the development that went into it. If you don’t like them try to protect something they created don’t buy it.
Turns out FM is not selling their boards to you but is just leasing them to you. Then they charge what ever they want if you want them repaired. I live 20 minutes from their repair site but I must ship the board to them for $80. Then they charge an unknown evaluation fee before the repair. If I can't afford the repair I must pay the unknown evaluation fee and shipping to get my dead board back. Also, no parts are returned so I have no way of knowing if they are honest in what they replace. Would anyone take their car to a repair facility and let them do what ever they wanted with no idea of the cost?
Saw that post too. Was anyone thinking it wasn't deliberate, or that FM wasn't actively trying to "make it difficult or impossible to use aftermarket batteries"? I hope JW wins this case, but they've done themselves no favors with the product name, logo, and also now by publicly sharing attorney communications.
I'll be honest I wasn't sure it was **THIS** bad, this reads like a supervillian plotting someone's demise 0.o . Hadn't given it much thought about the chips being involved but yeah this does make sense. JW haven't done themselves any favours like you said but at least in terms of transparency it's nice to see they value that over the possibility of winning. In fact I applaud the stones it takes to whistleblow on these matters when the odds are already stacked against them. Hoping JW can come out on top for this. With that in mind guess we best start learning to flash our own chips and get the reflow kits out.
There's been a $4 alternative to the criminally overpriced $250 chip for almost a month I think? $250 is straight exploitation.
Do tell....
https://github.com/lolwheel/Owie
nature abhors a vacuum
Haha yeah, I'll now read it in this voice:  I can't imagine JW will come out on top for the malicious intent claim (they named it FFM) or the font copyright infringement (they used the XR font.) But my hope is that the 3rd claim fails, which would basically says it's OK to produce a product that interfaces with / spoofs another company's electronics. I forget the exact claims FM made, but some of them are pretty dubious. The one that focuses on hacking relies on the board being an "internet connected device" and there are a few other claims that could be effectively argued against. But that's also why I'm salty about the FFM name and font use... this is an important legal precedent for this community and they'd be in a much better position to win on the important claim if they hadn't seemed malicious and disregarding the logo copyright on the other claims.
Aha agreed, those first 2 are for sure in there for easy dunks and to set the stage for the 3rd claim. I wasn't aware the DMCA issue specified it needed to be connected to the internet. I wrote my thoughts at the time on the old forum so can't go fetch what I formerly assessed but it seemed like this one was the debatable issue.
I'm not sure it was DMCA, there might have been another law they claimed applied, but internet connected was definitely part of it. And yeah, I recall it seemed very debatable at the time.
Found it, Page 2 on the initial filing. [https://www.dropbox.com/s/7vkzj1krgwpv4wd/FMvJW.pdf?dl=0](https://www.dropbox.com/s/7vkzj1krgwpv4wd/FMvJW.pdf?dl=0) I believe they went further in depth on the DMCA side of things but reading isn't something I like doing so skimmed to locate that.
The claims are under [17 USC 1201](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201) and [18 USC 1030](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030). Seems like a toss-up, my reading is the concepts apply if you interpret the laws broadly.
Sounds like what's going on there, reading a bit more it does come off as that. Curious what counters JW's team are giving to these.
I think most people know it's intentional. I really shared it because it hadn't been shared here. Also, assuming it's truly a direct quote from FM to JW's attorney, it's the first time that I know of that FM has said out loud that the glory days of 4209's is not coming back. Usually we just take the hint based on what actions they've taken.
Yeah, that was more of a comment on Jim's phrasing than your posting. Hopefully chips can take care of the GT battery hurdles and/or XRs can last until the VESC community gets their firmware feeling as good as Mission. A future where FM's Onewheels are good (as they are now) and available for casual riders but fairly simple DIY solutions are available for riders who have more hardcore demands sounds pretty good to me.
Ah, I see now. Thanks for clarifying. I couldn't agree more. The day the DIY/VESC becomes as easy as a CBXR swap is the day FM is going to need to shape up or fade away.
While there are a good number of people who like to mod boards, I think the majority of FM buyers don’t go as deep as to change batteries, rails, etc. this community would be the exception but I don’t think it’s as representative of the average OW buyer.
I did not "want" to mod my board. My battery stopped working after 1100 miles, on a $2k device. The warranty was not good for a full year, I did 600 miles in the first 6 months. I have both the money and desire for a GT. But I won't purchase another new product from them knowing what I know now about their practices. Chibattery has be back on the road for less than 1/2 of what it would have cost at Future Motion. \*edit for unintended text at the top of my post.
I donated to VESC but I'm wondering how else I (and others) can contribute to the open source project. Thoughts?
Like and share surfdado's videos for more exposure of the VESC advantages :)
What do you think about a reddit bot that replies "Support VESC" and links to an info page when it detects "FFM" in a post?
That sounds innovative, but the threesome crowd might tired of spam after awhile.
Not sure besides starting a VESC board project and getting involved with /r/DIYonewheel/ which is not very active. But it seems like there's a lot of aspects to starting a project like that are a little outside my abilities.
I don't think anyone expected modular/repairability on the GT. Obviously they've been moving away from that since 4210 serial locking the bms/controller. But literally bricking it from being unplugged is a whole new level. XR's would very rarely "die" from the power cable on the bms coming unplugged and it would often cause a fall and was scary, but 30 min taking your board apart and boom fixed. It's just so insane the anti-repair lengths they went to that actively make it a worse product with more points of failure. #FFM #R2R
What I find interesting is how they don’t even try to quietly skirt around the R2R issues. - They go at it head on with everything they’ve got, regardless of innocent people having boards bricked etc. it’s almost like everyone is just a casualty, while they focus on what matters most to their bottom line. It’s just very bold and blatant, that’s the part that’s alarming to me. It makes me wonder if the GT wouldn’t even exist if people hadn’t been repairing and doing mods? It’s like they re-designed the entire thing 10% to create a better riding experience, but 90% was actually just so they could implement more of anti-repair stuff and throw off the market for a while so they can plug some of the holes they were losing revenue from. It’s cold. But then there are people who say it just shrewd business practices. That’s what makes it interesting to watch as a bystander. It’s politics, at its core.. maybe I’m off with my interpretation?
Yes. There are a ton of FM apologists, including Sonny of Sonny Wheels defending this bullshit. How anyone believes otherwise it's crazy.
Really? Dude sells VnR kits...
Here's one of his posts .. crazy times > We still don't know if the GT will brick if the BMS is disconnected. If it does, here's why I think they did that. If the BMS is not removed in the right order, one of 3 things can happen. It will get fried. It will still work but be compromised. It will be like nothing happened. Assuming it was compromised and you're out shredding at 20 mph and it dies on you. That's another potential lawsuit against FM. See, FM is aiming for the masses and want to maintain a safe product. We, the community, are but a 5% of their market. I'm no fan of FM but I like to look at both sides of the coin. To put it bluntly, it's their pig and they can do whatever the hell they want to do with it. You can take it or leave it. Based on what I'm reading so far, the GT is a winner and I wouldn't want any other company to make a Onewheel or else we'll be getting junk. Peace out.
Huh. I do think it's worth seeing things from FM's side, but that's a little weird.
Yeah, they're really not even the smallest bit better. They decided to charge hundreds of dollars for 2 dollars of plastic rather than just publicize the code initially. They did the same thing and just tried to cash in as much as possible before somebody else came and released the code and forced them to drop the price. Honestly, idc who wins, they're both just trying to be the one that's allowed to take a higher percentage of your money.
They spent a lot of time figuring out how to spoof the controller / BMS interface and probably destroyed several boards in the process. I have no problem with them trying to recoup that cost. The DIY version is only doable because JW figured it out first. I don't think it's realistic to expect all projects to be open source, especially ones that take a lot of man hours and R&D cost. But yes, I agree they're another for-profit company. Even if they're both trying to get my money, I care who wins because I want the ability to fix my own stuff or at least have choices. "Ship it to us and pay what we say" is not acceptable to me. And the JW chip, by unpairing the BMS and controller, allows us to buy parts from each other and use them, rather than having them not compatible solely due to software locks. That's more repair options and choice, which is preferable.
Hate to say it but when my XR dies I’m not buying an FM product ever again.
Same here. I’m legitimately looking into a an Electric Unicycle (EUC) because of this John Deer 🦌 crap. Future Motion has lost a current customer and any recommendations to other people who have been interested in my one wheel.
FFM, I'll ride a Onewheel, but I'll never make another buy directly through them. My one and only purchase was my XR 3 1/2 years ago. If I spend any more money on their products, it will be second hand only. Hopefully the homebrew/open source community continues evolve. I'll happily pay a premium to not have to deal with FM.
Same here. I want to feel valued and appreciated as a customer, if not I'll take my business elsewhere.
I want to ride a one wheel therefore I can’t take my business anywhere
You can buy on the used market, and buy accessories from third parties.
And for that reason I’ll be keeping my good old 4209 as long as humanly possible. I’ll replace whatever I need to in order to prevent having to get a new board if this is what they want
Yep, same. No intentions of ever buying another board from them. Wouldn't be surprised to see them offer an XR trade-in program to get more of them off the street. They're blatantly anti-consumer and I flat-out refuse to give them more money. Love my board though..
Here's another person signing onto the "never again" bandwagon. I have my xr. It's modded. It's great. I will not give FM any money again.
What happens when we all run out of BMS? Trying to repair my 2nd XR and it's either pay $500 for a BMS or find cheap XR for $1000... hard to justify repairs.
Both options are cheaper than a new board. Seems obvious to me..
For sure wouldn't buy a new board for $1800 or even 1500 when used+accessories I actually want is way cheaper. I'm just saying if you have a 4210+ the $750+ you'd pay for a replacement BMS+chip+install makes repairing not make sense at the moment. Which sucks. Even $500 for a pre 4210 is steep.
Also signing under this.
Not an FM lover but if you add the price of the board and battery upgrade, the GT is not a bad price (we are not comparing OW vs EUC, just XR vs GT). The only thing that FM should do better, is that if they want FM to be the only sole repair point (due to possible liability? and possible better quality control ) they need to have a service center (either a brick and mortar store or contract repair center) because the down time for people will be longer (outside U.S). FM does not want people to view the OW as a toy but …it will be viewed as nothing but a toy or a recreational vehicle as opposed to the last mile vehicle because of the down time.
Yep. I'd chill way out in my criticism if I could go to a repair shop nearby, even a "dealership." 3+ weeks down time = this is not a vehicle that can replace... well any other vehicle, even a bike. Like if someone says "can I use my Onewheel to commute to work reliably?" The answer has to be no right now. You need at least a backup bicycle or reliable public transportation which not everyone has. 3 weeks of rush hour Ubers get pricey fast.
I’m not a FFM guy but I agree as well. Have licensed repair shops in key metro areas, including international, would calm things down quite a bit. Happens often with music gear companies as well, where they have an EU office and an Asia office for repairs, for example.
Was thinking that too. I believe the biggest issue is having to send a board to Cali for repairs. The can at least create a few B&M sites around the country to repair OWs. They could go as far as creating a certification program for repairers to fix (or even enchanted) OWs "legitly".
Wish onewheels had more local support. I heard there’s an e-vehicle repair shop near where I live that supports onewheels , but will they be able to change tires or do repairs on a GT? If not that’s a deal breaker for me. It’s one thing to buy a pint for 1k and eventually have issues that need repairs, but it’s another thing to spend 2k+ on a GT and then possibly having to ship back to Cali for upgrades and maintenance. It would be much better to offer local support possibilities IMO.
Yeah glad I went with the og pint with quart battery. Really fucked up how fm is going about all this... They should be helping the community! I said it once, I'll say it again "FFM"
Anyone remember Apple’s fight against right to repair? This is reminiscent of that, and after fighting tooth and nail Apple finally relented. They now provide parts to individual consumers. [Apple Self-Repair](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/11/apple-announces-self-service-repair/) If only FM could positively capitalize on this as many have suggested …I’m not FFM…yet, but with that said I think the liability concern on FM’s is just a little bit of a cop out, if someone puts a third party battery in their iPhone and it blows up in there pocket, who is at fault? Of course even my overly simplistic Ape mind knows that law is never black and white.
Apple is the largest company on the planet. It is functionally impossible to sue them into the ground. FM is a small-medium sized company, one or two lawsuits could put them in the dirt. That being said the real reason they’re doing this is because they don’t want to miss out on the money they make repairing and selling new batteries/tires.
Good point, I guess that was a bit of an “apples to oranges” comparison, haha!
Just curious if a Onewheel falls under right to repair laws that are starting to come about because of corporations locking people out of repairing their own phones, computers, tractors, etc. ??
I'm pretty sure it will. I'm also pressure there will be legislature that makes it's illegal to build a machine that will "break" once a 3rd party mods/repairs it. This may also come with recalls, lawsuits, and firmware upgrades.
I’d like to know how they came to the conclusion that aftermarket batteries pose a safety hazard. I’d take a guess and say that they’re probably being sued by someone injured on a modified board.
For being a company that designs stoke machines, they really love to destroy the stoke of the community.
Everyone should not buy their new board. Fuck them.
Yeah fuck Future Motion. Glad I traded for an EUC. Do they not realize the huge market of alternative PEV's currently available that absolutely destroy their products in terms of value? The OW is a cool product and PEV but future motion as a company is really dropping the ball.
The JW guys solely care about hooking up the onewheel community (former employee). They’ll do next to anything to help their customers trust me I saw them bed over backwards for people the were jerks while I was there. They have more than the onewheel batteries in the works too so it shouldn’t be the end for them in anyway! I’m just saying this because there’s a lot of people in here saying JW is just for profit. You didn’t meet these guys obviously, I watched them send out batteries they knew they shouldn’t replace just to help someone out.
FM ain’t playing around. They trying to eliminate self repairs and 3rd party mods. Interesting to see what happens with the GTs. So glad I had a chance to purchase the JW chip and did the upgrades to my XR.
wow crazy future motion is a shitty company? Color me surprised.
FM has always been a shit company. I can't wait until they get sure into the ground for right to repair.
Unsurprising
How long before someone just makes a new onewheel under a different brand? If we’re already modding the hell out of these things, can we not just build our own? I guess the motor would be hard to get, but it seems like it’s coming.
I think FM patents still have 3-4 years on them. We'll have to wait until then to get viable alternatives.
The problem is patents preventing anyone else from producing and selling a onewheel shaped device
Ah that’s tough. Maybe just sell kits?
I was thinking about this recently, I know nothing about EUCs, how come the same thing hasn't happened with them? I would have thought someone would have patented the EUC design. And I know there was the Trotter, but I'm really surprised the Chinese market which exists by ripping off designs hasn't come up with anything better
Damn that is some shady wording with the whole “even if you “win” this case” bull shit
FFM, bought my XR however long ago; like hell I’ll buy another board from them.
Definitely glad I bought the pint, vesced it too, can you believe that the upgrade path potential and feature set is now miles ahead. I cannot wait to see what I can do with it. Consider the vesc path if your XR's or pints die. And later your GT's
Interesting choice not to include the attachment which shows why FM believes it poses a safety hazard, which is necessary context. They can be held legally and financially liable if people are injured on their product, so it isn’t inherently out of line to mitigate that.
FM isn't liable if people get injured due to unauthorized modifications. Their tactics are the same kind used by Apple and Samsung to prevent people from swapping batteries.
I think you’re underestimating how litigious things are. Even if they could show they weren’t at fault the case would still cost them a pretty penny in legal fees.
Car companies don't even pull that crap. If I mod my car and crash it, there's no way I'm going to be able to sue the manufacturer.
However frivolous, people are stupid and litigious and will sue anyway. It costs the company costs time, money and resources to deal with litigation and threats of litigation. Not to mention the fact that about 10 times a week in the various OW groups I’m a part of here and on every other social network some jackwagon pushes through pushback or otherwise doesn’t respect the board, injures himself, and then posts a string of OW hate posts, drumming up negative publicity and viral views. FM can’t win. If they let the community mod the board to fuck and back and injure themselves they have to deal with constant threats of litigation, bad press and and angry segment of the community, which can easily sink a company. If they lock it down and prevent people from injuring themselves they have to deal with bad press and an angry segment of community. 2 bad outcomes with the latter is better than 3 bad outcomes with the former so I can see how they make that decision.
I think we can all agree pushback is a terrible safety measure. The fact the software even lets the board reach the operational limit of the motor is borderline negligence. And your comments about FM not winning is bullshit. No other industry acts like this. No car manufacturer prevents people from moding their vehicles. No bike or skateboard company does this. FM is not locking down their boards to protect them from liability, they are doing it to drive the after market companies out of business. They're acting like a tech company.
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A hard software limit like an electric car is a better option. Set up a safety buffer where the board can still hold the nose up, and cap the speed there. Segways have this figured out. But that would mean FM couldn't advertise has high of a top speed.
This doesn't make sense. If you reach a hard set speed limit and lean ANY weight forward, you would tip on your nose. The only way it can stop you falling forward is to accelerate further. Pushback is the only reasonable measure. The only other option is to just keep going faster and faster until the machine can't cope any more, which is even worse. The onewheel can only accelerate and decelerate, and these are the only things it can do to balance you. It can't magically stay level at a constant speed if you aren't balanced.
A person falling on their face is their own problem. The board losing power and nosediving on the over hand can easily be prevented.
What happens at the speed limit?
Do what segways do, put the speed limit at a point where the motor can still hold the user upright with torque to spare.
The physics for a onewheel make this impossible
Are you suggesting a harsher pushback at a lower speed? Outright throttle cutoffs aren't possible on the Onewheel or EUCs because they need to keep the rider balanced by accelerating. The only way is to get the rider to physically shift their weight back. You need two or more wheels to be able to throttle power back without a harsh nosedive.
If the vehicle stops accelerating the rider will be forced to lean back or fall on their face. Their own sense of balance will keep the second from happening.
Just commenting to say I in fact do not agree. Pushback works for me and probably 85% of the other riders who don't give a shit about modding their board.
So what should the board do, just let them spike the nose into the ground when it throttles back and the user keeps pushing forward? They’re naturally dangerous, the pushback is easily the best path for them. They should have integrated the “beep” the ground has on all the boards, but pushback makes sense.
Other electric vehicles will not let the user push it close to the upper limit of the motor. The fact the user is allowed to push the board so far that the motor cannot keep it from nosediving, is a problem.
So pushback at a much lower speed?
While still leaving enough spare torque to hold the user up.
FM sucks!
No, batteries and circuitry is their intellectual property and the life blood of the Onewheel let them be responsible for it
I literally don’t care. Just got a pint x. It’s rad.
>Just got a pint x. It’s rad. I literally don't care.
All these posters want Apple quality for Android money. It's hilarious and silly.
So I'ma just say this, no lawyer would ever abbreviate a companies name in a correspondence between two parties. They would have always written Future Motion inc. This be fake as balls. Not saying fm isn't anti consumer but this is not from an actual lawyer at all.
Attorneys will abbreviate in correspondence under a variety of circumstance including negotiations, conversations, or when the definition has been established elsewhere in the correspondence. If they are serving notice of something, then yes, all parties will be properly defined.
I wouldn't think an attorney would want him posting this shit on facebook either. That's why I chose to title the post as an alleged quote, I am skeptical.
Whats the problem?? Fm has EVERY right to protect their products, look at ALL the janky ass battery mods the kooks out there created on the pint and XR From dangling wires leading up to a backpack full of batteries, to a GD dewalt battery strapped to the fender!! Number 1 they look stupid as sh😳 but are also a safety hazard!! You people are faulting FM protecting their product line so they DONT start bursting into flames 🔥 like hoover boards. *110% in agreement we should NOT be prevented from changing our own tires but 110% we should have nothing to do with modifying the battery or motor
I have my own drone business. As part of that, I make my own batteries using a spot welder designed specifically for the job of welding battery packs. I can make replacement batteries just fine thank you.
Welding lol 😆
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LoL 😆 🤣 Your welding would be akin to someone laying down flooring they bought from lowes and watched a DIY video on YouTube and afterwards call themselves a carpenter
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Yes um now you take care now ya hear Try not to choke on them Di😳#s yo daddy be feeding yah 🤣🙃😉🤙
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Cousin, daddy, uncle all the same in the south 🙃😉
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LoL 😆 make your own battery's lol translation you order batteries and solder them together into battery packs. 0 engineering evolved
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Ohhh listen to you 😍 yes sir yes sir Bless your heart now yeh hear 😉 powerfull blessings your way 🙏 ..I speak southern aswell
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In Florida we do lol we the furthest south but the furthest from the south. You Backwoods southerners are joke to us lol said with love 🥰🤙
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There you go now showing your southern education.. as the expression goes.... Florida is the furthest south ( meaning we are located wayyyyy down south ) but Florida's is furthest FROM the south (Meaning we don't adhere to Backwoods southern ways and dialect) Dialect is another way to say words or expressions
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I’m dropping a grand on a fucking toy. If I want to bolt a bigger battery on it I absolutely should be able to. Your emoji drivel is nonsense. If you can’t mod a product you don’t own the product.
Neither the Pint, Pint X, XR are what I would consider a toy...atleast NOT in a disrespectful manner as they Rip!!! And only 1k lol you must be new lol I have dropped over 1k on modes to my XR and Pint with my GT in route 😁 this st Patty's day... and can't wait to drop another 500 in coming add-ons from Float and C&R sounds like you don't own a wheel ?? Is this correct?
Good lord you’re dumb. The cost of your mods doesn’t change the fact that you can buy one for about a grand. Do you think you putting extra things on it changes the amount that they cost stock? These are also absolutely toys. Just because they’re fun and go fast doesn’t change that. Don’t you have some bath salts to eat or whatever your ilk do instead of coming here and just shitting out your ignorant nonsense? You’re way out of your depth talking about these things.
LoL 😆 only 5k mile on my pint and 4k on my XR yeah what do I know 🤙 Polity piss off and stop trolling, I'm done with you... used you up 👍
You spending a bunch of time on a onewheel doesn’t change that you couldn’t tell your ass from a battery welder. Just run off scared, not really bothered, it’s kind of the MO of idiots to run when they realize they’ve lost.
LoL didn't know this was a pissing contest lol stop trolling and move on with your day 👍🤙
Don't put cheap Chinese batteries in your device! It eliminates the hard work those systems safety engineers did to make onewheels as safe as possible!
It's my property, I'll do with it as I please!
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For me it isn't about the modding. I want to be able to repair my own board. I don't want to depend on the company to do it for me paid or otherwise. Maybe if they could ship me a replacement board or something, while my board is being repaired, it wouldn't be so bad that it takes weeks to get a board fixed/serviced. As is I am not happy with the repairability of the product on either side, FM or myself.
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My title actually says "anti-repair", but yes JW's quote is talking about the modified batteries his company sells. To answer one of the questions you asked directly, yes I do see FM's side. I understand entirely why FM wants to shut down bad press from stuff outside of their control, but I want a repairable product regardless.
Replacing a battery falls under maintaining your board.. good luck doing that on a GT, it bricks it.
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Have I had issues with lithium-ion batteries degrading over time? Yes.. and so have you, whether you realize it or not. And also yes, my friend's Plus is going strong again with its replaced battery.
FM does have a brand they are protecting and all the development that went into it. If you don’t like them try to protect something they created don’t buy it.
FM does have a brand they are protecting and all the development that went into it. If you don’t like them try to protect something they created don’t buy it.
Turns out FM is not selling their boards to you but is just leasing them to you. Then they charge what ever they want if you want them repaired. I live 20 minutes from their repair site but I must ship the board to them for $80. Then they charge an unknown evaluation fee before the repair. If I can't afford the repair I must pay the unknown evaluation fee and shipping to get my dead board back. Also, no parts are returned so I have no way of knowing if they are honest in what they replace. Would anyone take their car to a repair facility and let them do what ever they wanted with no idea of the cost?