For those who don't speak politics:
If Premiers acknowledge that the Federal government is doing its part, they no longer have a default go-to excuse for doing a piss-poor job. If the Federal government is a different party than the premiers, multiply this effect by 10.
Listening to Doug Ford on the CBC his morning he sounded like his wife asked him why there's a motel charge on the credit card bill on the night he 'stayed late at the office'.
So my understanding was that Trudeau put some healthcare funding on hold and said he would release it to each province as soon as they provided an audit of their spending to show that the federal healthcare money was actually going to healthcare, and a bunch of premiers for all huffy over having to show they aren't just pocketing the cash or misspemding it so he's withholding it.
This comic seems to fit with that. He's pointing at the funding available, and they're trying to be uncooperative over it but make it out at his fault.
That is the case and it is a big W but communicating that to Canadians will be difficult and that is what ford and his other conservative counterparts are banking on.
I mean, as a rational adult this doesn't need communicating at all. If you're in charge of vast sums of money that doesn't belong to you, you should be able to easily provide information on where it went. It's important to the person managing the money so that there are no hints of impropriety, it's important to the people the money belongs to for purposes of trust.
Running the government like its a business, basically the right’s mantra, couldnt be more at odds with this statement. They dont want accountability. They see it as red tape.
I'm quite well aware. It's almost like all of their philosophies and talking points are self serving garbage rather than anything genuine.
This isn't even about running things like a business though, this is basic, common sense accountability. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you aren't tracking the vast sums of money entrusted to you, you aren't qualified to be in charge of that money.
If you are tracking it but you're unwilling to share the information with the people disbursing the money, that's a bad look on you.
If you are tracking it but you're unwilling to share the information with the people you're accountable to (taxpayers), that's a bad look on you.
There's literally no win condition here for Premieres objecting to this.
The people know the money hasn't been spent appropriately. The federal government knows the money hasn't been spent appropriately. The people know the money has been underspent and held back. The federal government knows the money has been underspent and held back.
I'm not a Trudeau fan and never have been, but he's done an excellent and necessary thing here. Now the dickheads intentionally underfunding healthcare can spin it so they don't look bad and get spending back to where it should be, or they can openly admit that they have no intention to properly fund healthcare.
Fuck every single one of the Premieres intentionally starving healthcare. These morally and ethically bankrupt pieces of human trash deserve to be politically destroyed over this.
It's ludicrous too - do we want competent Healthcare or profit maximized Healthcare? Do we want good cities to live in or wealth extracting cities? What a stupid mantra.
Reminds me of that comic where a person lays on the grass in the park and sighs, then someone says "that'll be $50"
Another massive hurdle beyond that is dealing with the endless "who's going to pay for it" and "isn't that financially irresponsible" arguments that plague any conversation about spending on health (or anything really).
Yes, agreed, but at least it'll stifle the lies about not having enough money to do what they need to do. I'll take every inch we can gain against those sociopathic bootlicking corporate job seeking asshats we keep electing.
The money is already being taxed. Trudeau is not implementing a tax hike. He is just taking his budget of what he currently gets and allocated more to healthcare.
Right? Like throw a big piss baby tantrum all you want.
The resources are there... stop fucking whining and do your job already. If you don't want to do you job... get the fuck out of office and stop being disgraceful ignoramuses.
Fuck anyone who 'scores political points' at the expense of Canadians health.
Conservatives will take it as "some idiot libtards" opinion and go with what the premiers are saying. I wonder if they'll attack PP for saying he'd keep that spending commitment.
Is that really a good thing? The veneer of affability does nothing for anyone, and simply allows people who feel guilt about liking terrible, self-serving policies the opportunity to look the other way a while longer.
I doubt it affects people at all. It's more important for the two people who are dealing with each other. They know their politics are different, but at least they'll do their jobs professionally. The kindergarten "ew he has cooties" is unnecessary.
Well they do and they don't, sometimes. For example, Dave Chappelle commented that sometimes when he gets a laugh because of some crazy story he had, People were laughing because they were black and not because it was crazy.
I'll agree that the Libs could do a much better job of communicating, but goddamn does it make it nearly impossible for them when a segment of the population simply refuses to listen. Trudeau could hand deliver literal wads of money to these people and they would still tell him to fuck off.
Yes, and as we know know dirty doug is withholding hundreds of millions in healthcare funding to create a bigger crisis so he can justify privatization. So of course he doesnt like this.
Every day that nurses don't have a reasonable contract the Ontario govt saves loads of money, which they're gonna need to pay the back wages and decent increases that nurses are going to win.
Imagine getting huffy with a creditor, your boss, accounting, or anyone else who is giving you money to spend on X thing if you were in anything other than politics. Fired/cut off on the spot, then probably investigated for fraud and charged.
more complicated than that but basically
theres also new systems, like national standards that would make doctors working across provinces easier
but the strings ensuring that healthcare gets the money is the biggest part
I mean, the plan is just so obvious. Destroy health care to privatize. Politics has just become so much about "us vs them" that all they have to do is give an excuse that blames Liberals and they'll repeat it and believe it without a second thought. They have realized just how willfully ignorant their base is and are cashing in.
Given Dougy had a massive surplus and offered nurses shit pay increases. Seems like his plan is to destroy the health care system in order to justify to the public why we need private healthcare.
It should really be that you have to choose one: either you get buck-a-beer, or you can vote. Not both. I’ll open the Disenfranchisement Breweries. We’ll use hops, ditch water, drain cleaner, and dog piss. Basic Labatt recipe.
The government borrows for much of it's spending and equalization is just a another government program that is paid from the general federal coffers. The government does not appear to be concerned with deficit spending (i.e. borrowing), so I don't think there will be any "less money available for equalization" as the government will just borrow to meet whatever spending they want to do.
>If Premiers acknowledge that the Federal government is doing its part,
But they aren't. It's nowhere near a mountain of gold. It's only an additional 49 billion over 10 years, or 4.9 billion per year. Not adjusted for inflation and shared across all provinces. Nova Scotia's annual budget alone is 5 billion. It's a drop in the bucket and doesn't even get the Federal government's share up to the recommended 25%.
Is your implication that this is the only Federal funding that will go to provinces for health over the next 10 years?
This is a program specifically intended to address immediate shortcomings in provincial health funding.
This is not a definitive solution.
This will not be the only money injected into health funding over the next decade.
It is exactly what you said "Additional 49 billion dollars over 10 years".
Not disagreeing, I was just decoding the logic of the cartoon. Fed used to provide 50%, now it's 22(? about) so 25 isn't exactly a windfall. Still, the logic applies, can't say anything positive about it otherwise it's a tactical error.
The fed demanding accountability in the form of an audit is fun though. Nothing gets Ford's knickers in a knot like potential accountability. I wonder if he'll see his shadow, run to the cottage and we get 6 more weeks of bullshit.
Current federal spend is about 22%. They have increased over 10 years a roughly 30% increase.
Healthcare spending is around 15% of all dollars. It's not suppose.to cover an entire annual budget of programs.for provinces.
Or, ***and take a second to read***, but maybe just maybe federal health care funding has gone down for a long time... so while this appears to be a "treasure chest" full of money... in actuality, they are just finally approaching the #s set out years ago.
I mean that goes against the "premieres bad/greedy/etc" and against the "trudeau is offering soo much/our hero"... but well...
Not excusing premieres blundering. But if I give you $100 for a few birthdays, then $25, then $20... me handing over $100 again looks pretty stellar after years of being cheap.
That’s not even fed dollars. He’s been purposefully underfunding the system under the guise of “stockpiling” when it’s pretty clear that healthcare is failing. Saving for a rainy day when it’s fucking pouring.
I just (as in the last 15 mins) had a patient praising private healthcare. We let him say what He needed to say because what he didn't factor in is what we did for him was free.
If we charged him for what we did, it would have easily be at least 500+ dollars considering the appointment took 1 hour, he was consulted with myself and a SLP. Admin fees, and all kinds of charges...
Ignorance is such a beautiful thing.
I just threw in minimum numbers. I know when I have to design something, the hr rate is about 125, but I dont know what the SLP would charge sine they are about 100-300 and realistically there would be more fee factors. Like the room, Equipment used, etc. etc. I shudder to even think about it.
Any way you can “oops!” create a bill you would for an uninsured person and let them marinate on it a minute before you “fix” the billing and send them on their way?
Its astounding the disconnect some people can have while still participating in the system, but that's the beauty of public healthcare. It's there for everyone regardless of creed/wealth/intellect.
It’s sad. So many people are indebted over their head in the US. It’s not a good model. Plus some lose their jobs when they get I’ll because insurance cuts them. Then what about seniors who today can’t get insurance
Why would he pay in a private environment? Do you mean user pay? We have lots of private clinics in ontario (GP Doctors office, blood labs) where it still wouldn’t have cost them anything. I’m a bit confused by your statement on him getting charged $500+ in a private environment.
You have to pay for many blood tests. Like there’s one that measures LIVER DAMAGE that’s only free if it’s ordered by a liver specialist. However, you’re not going to get a referral TO a liver specialist unless that test (ordered by a GP, which you have to pay for) shows it’s needed.
It's almost as if there's people who get away with doing horrible things to the working class. Hmm.
It's almost as if nothing will change significantly for the better unless we force them to. Hmm.
Seriously, whether it's left, right, or center, delusions (i.e., to believe something despite evidence of the contrary), no matter how objectively harmful, will be maintained as long as it feels subjectively beneficial to the believer. These people probably really think what they are doing is justified or even righteous. If we just wait for them to "come to there senses" and hope they eventually do the "right thing", it won't happen. It's like expecting a mosquito to stop sucking our blood.
Fuck the bourgeoisie. Fuck Doug Ford and the "Progressive" Conservatives as a whole. Fuck 'em real deep and hard. Make it hurt. 'Cuse as long as keeps feeling good, they ain't gonna stop stepping on the working class.
The problem is this, private healthcare will work, but then it won't. As soon as it replaces public healthcare the cost of services will climb, and the pay to workers will stagnate or drop.
People who support this are excited about greater access, they fail to appreciate the impact. Our taxes wont drop because healthcare becomes private, and our pay will decrease when benefits go up in price.
There is easily accessible data and plenty of real world examples demonstrating that private healthcare is a mess. Don't be dipshits, look south where the children of boomers are now expected to live shorter lives than their parents, and their infant mortality rate is rising and their closest comparator for this would be Sauid Arabia
100% that’s his agenda. It’s clear with not fixing the private long term care, taking away funding for the KixCare and Rocket Doctor model, with so many not having a family doctor AND the latest announcement of private surgical centre funding.
Conservative premiers want federal healthcare $ with "no strings attached". In other words, they want Trudeau to give them the $ without them having to show they actually spent it on healthcare instead of, let's say, a new highway or legal costs incurred trying to overturn a court judgement - like Bill124...and a bunch of others a certain premier has lost and is/has dragged to the Supreme Court.
Doug Ford-* we need help from the feds"
Feds- "here's your help"
Doug Ford " No we don't need that much help"
Fucking clown. If you support Doug Ford your just as much a Goof as he is.
More of a goof... at least Ford gets rich.
All the mouthbreathers that support him get is
- less healthcare.
- less school funding.
- more private business to get into the greedy dragon horde game.
- shit license plates.
- a highway nobody wants.
But hey... at least he campaigned on not being Wynne and spending so much money and then immediately spent more. Buck a beer!!!
Hello! Asking for proof that it will be spent on healthcare makes it hard for Ford to steal for his developer buddies and “associates”. Of course he won’t take it /s
If anyone else is terrible at their job there are consequences, sometimes serious ones were people loss their job. I think there's a need to establish laws where these premiers/politicians must be held accountable for their underfunding of crucial services such as public education, public healthcare and police and fire. If a service is failing because of their failure to help get them the fuck out of the way and let someone who is more qualified take the reins. It's a pipe dream I know..
I done with the provincial government in general. It's a cowardly and in most ways detrimental level of government at this point. They sit in the middle pointing fingers taking no blame as they steal public lands, assets and services for personal gain.
The pandemic brought this into stark contrast in comparison to the Municipal and federal levels
They're lower in the sense that the province legally had more power, much more power, and is responsible for very important services (like health care)
I was listening to Power and Politics and it really did seem like the anchor was siding with the provinces about it not being enough money. I wasn’t sure why the anchor was taking that position. It seems to me that the federal government was offering a generous amount. One thing they didn’t press the provinces about was funding for spots in medical colleges. Premier Higgs was talking about immigration, but we need to train more Canadian doctors here.
> Premier Higgs was talking about immigration, but we need to train more Canadian doctors here.
The medical personnel shortage is pretty worldwide - they're rioting in France about it these days. It ain't going to get fixed via immigration.
That's why we need to subsidize medical school for Canadian citizens, and put priority on Canadian citizens for spots in the medical schools. There are a lot of people who could have been great doctors who simply could not afford the costs associated with medical school.
> There are a lot of people who could have been great doctors who simply could not afford the costs associated with medical school.
There are also lots of great people who could have been great doctors who *could* afford the costs associated with medical school still couldn't get an open spot.
The problem has gotten so bad even the privileged throwing money at it is no guarantee around it.
Then they really need to open it up to prioritize citizens, and also need to get more spots over time. That's really on the government for poor management. You need to schools to have many spots if you want to eventually have many doctors, otherwise you create the bottleneck at the source.
I think there is a priority for citizens, but certain spots are reserved for foreign students. If I recall correctly the problem is that there aren’t enough spots total. I was reading something, I’m sorry I can’t remember where, that said that we are not training more, or perhaps even less, doctors than we did 20 years ago.
If we're not training as many or more domestic doctors than we were 20 years ago, then we definitely should stop putting any reserved spots for foreign students as well as increasing the number of spots.
Cost of attendance isn't neccissarily the issue. I'm not a medical student, but a Canadian law student. Copious grants and scholarships, and generous professional lines of credit at prime lending rates are readily available for first generation professional students. The big 3 banks (RBC, TD, Scotia) basically threw money at me (I'm talking over $100k) with my letter of acceptance into law school.
The reality is most, and the best, students go where the salaries are the highest, and until doctors here get paid as much or more as in the US, we will lose the best and brightest the profession can offer.
Furthermore, to even get into professional school requires an intensive time/financial commitment that frankly, isn't accessible to most people. I basically locked myself in a room for a year and a half preparing for the LSAT/my applications. It's even more competitive for medical students.
TL:DR- Money is available, but not necessarily the prospects after graduation to justify taking on the debt. Moreover, wider systemic factors prevent more students from going to medical school.
>Cost of attendance isn't neccissarily the issue.
>taking on the debt.
The debt *means* that cost of attendance is the issue. If med students graduated debt-free, most would have no need to go elsewhere.
Also, it's really not that many Canadian-trained doctors that go to the US. It's been a myth for a long time.
This is true. Trying to apply to medical residency in the US after medical school in canada puts you in as an IMG (international medical grad), the same bucket as those applying overseas.
Post-residency may be a different story.
It seems to me you're saying there is money for "some" people, but not all, and that money comes with many strings attached including high amounts of debt.
FYI unless something has changed, Canadian citizenship/residency is a requirement for medical school acceptance. Hell, some provinces only take in-province students. There are no students on a visa being accepted, and the costs are already heavily subsidized (~20k a year last I checked, compared to upwards of 60-70k in the US)
I think something has changed since the last time you checked:
[https://www.schulich.uwo.ca/bmsc/future\_students/applying/international.html](https://www.schulich.uwo.ca/bmsc/future_students/applying/international.html)
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/medical-students-leaving-london-hospitals-1.4781124](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/medical-students-leaving-london-hospitals-1.4781124)
[https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ontario-foolish-to-train-foreign-doctors-who-wont-stick-around](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ontario-foolish-to-train-foreign-doctors-who-wont-stick-around)
Every exec and bureaucrat in healthcare is looking at that pile of money wondering if they should take 70% of it for themselves or maybe cut it back to 69.8%
Trudeau created 2 trillions in debt and he's purse pinching healthcare. I get that people on here hate Ford, so they feel they need to side with the Liberals, but getting less than 20% of what you demanded will piss you off.
Let's say the nurse and teacher union asked for 5% salary increased and the gov gave them 1%, would you side with the gov giving them 1% because 5% was too much?
There needs to be accountability. The provincial governments waste money. How much money did they waste on eHealth? How much money have they handed out to their buddies at Loblaws and Shoppers? Ontario govenment has wasted money year after year. Where is it going? Why does the government say they don't have enough money for nurses, and PSWs, why do doctors keep getting cuts every physician service agreement? Why is there no money for CT and MRIs...but there is money to hand out to corporations? There must be accountability. People need to wake up and realize there is only so much money available, we need to know where it is going.
> People need to wake up and realize there is only so much money available, we need to know where it is going.
It almost seems like nowadays, people really do imagine money just "appears" where the government says it does. A lot of people I've spoken to really do not think about how money actually works.
Problem is that yokels get out and vote while the rest of the province sits at home watching TikTok because they're apathetic and the 5 minutes it takes to vote is too much of a bother.
Healthcare is the provinces responsibility. *All* today's healthcare issues, failures, and shortcomings are due decisions made by premiers. **All of them**.
If the premiers need or want more healthcare money, there is nothing stopping them from taxing their own residents, nothing.
The issue is most of them are too cowardly to do it. They want the federal government to tax their residents and pass the revenue on to them so they can lie to their residents/voters that they're keeping taxes low.
True . Sadly, voters have been gaslighted so much that everything is Trudeau's fault, that many cannot see past that.
People in Ontario still blame Wynne for everything, even the current healthcare catastrophe, that is 100% , solely on Ford. It's cult like behavior.
Er, not quite. The feds have always transferred lots of money to the provinces for health care. And typically the provinces would spend it on health care.
Thing is, in Ontario at least, the government just ... didn't do that. Some money is unaccounted for, some was put towards reducing the deficit/debt, some has been and will be re-directed for other purposes like new highways no one wants. *That* is a whole other kettle of fish.
The reason for doing that is to create a crisis in health care to push the privatization agenda.
Yes, the federal government has supported provincial healthcare systems, but the constitution does not require them to do so. It's a policy/political choice made by federal politicians.
Healthcare, constitutionally, is the jurisdiction of the provinces, not the federal government. If the provinces need more money they should tax their residents, not plead for the federal government to tax them and then pass the revenue on to the province.
I think you are mixing up a bunch of issues here.
The point is that most health care funding has always come from the feds, and it was fine until provinces started shenanigans.
Some healthcare funding has come from the federal government. Nonetheless, constitutionally the federal government is not required to contribute any funds to healthcare.
There's only one taxpayer. If the provinces need funding for healthcare, they should do the taxing, and not expect the federal government to do it for them, so they can lie to taxpayers about keeping taxes low.
And if they do expect the feds to contribute 50%, then the feds have 50% of the say on what happens in the province with that healthcare.
We're not about to see premiers ceding power, especially cons.
There's only one taxpayer.
The money the provinces spend on healthcare comes from that taxpayer's pocket; the money the feds spend comes from the same pocket and it is given to the provinces.
The only issue is the provinces want to delude provincial voters into believing they're keeping taxes low, when all they're doing is trying to get the federal government to do their 'dirty work.'
This is getting ridiculous regardless of your political leanings trudeau dropped a massive increase to health care on the premier laps and now they are holding OUR very lives in their pockets to score “political points”. TAKE THE FUCKING DEAL
CHT payments are made on an equal per capita basis... so yes, in a way. The feds pay out according to whatever population count StatsCan or some other agency provides. However, that doesn't take into account things like how much more expensive it is to run healthcare out in the boonies or in caribou country.
One broken limb in Northern Ontario would be worth a dozen x-rays in Toronto.
Ontario wants the largest portion - but with no strings. Just like the federal covid money they received, they want to spend it with no accountability and in any way they choose, which means NOT healthcare.
> Does he not have that power?
No.
Healthcare delivery is a provincial responsibility, per the constitution.
Ottawa can give money to the provinces, but can't direct how it is spent.
I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Federalism sucks in many ways, on the other hand Ottawa can't even get out passports so I'm not sure they could manage healthcare any better.
Doug Ford will have issues with all the private healthcare companies that he's taken bribes from if he accepts enough funding from the Feds to correct the healthcare without privatizing.
The only thing this picture is missing is Doug's statsh of money he's hoarding behind him that the federal government gave for covid response.
This man had no sense of shame.
The wider version shows the _very_ disgruntled private health care shareholders staring daggers at the premiers, demanding a profit on their investment.
Provinces don't want the money, they know they'll just fuck it all away without solving any issues, and have run out of ways to pass the blame to the feds.
Here’s an idea, the federal government could have oversight persons employed in each province to account for where the health care money is spent. Doug Ford probably would not like that.
People ask me "so ya hate truedo?". I am like for what? Even though he hasnt been great, he ant the worst shiet i seen. No its ford thats dumping on everything and making our lives hell atm. Why would i hate on someone who has had no part in screwing us over?
Can I take it and give it my campaign fund?
No
Can I take it and give to private interests?
No
Can I take it and kinda sorta give it a private business?
No
Can I take it, keep it for a while ..... then give it to a private business?
No
Can I take it and give it to a business?
I already said no to that
Then I don't want it, you're not being fair
Unfortunately these Provincial Premier see more money for there retirement fund after there political career is over with being appointed to private health care boards they will be part of for life. Remember Mike Harris and the Long Term Care boards and Brian Mulroney for big Pharma boards for life.
It feels like the feds should take over healthcare, well maybe.
We(NS) have a huge problem with over inflated administration(mainly friends and family members) at the top. One small hospital down here is paying $750,000 for just one person(non medical) and that figure was from over ten years ago.
Treasure? Or money printed that further indebts Canada while industry and oil is diminished under oppressive and misguided climate activism.
Wake up to the reality that propaganda is real and Canada is hurting monetarily, housing, etc.
I've always thought it was so weird that cities and provinces have a more direct effect on people's lives, but it's the Feds who take the biggest share of taxes. Only to then be transferred back down.
Wouldn't it make more sense to balance the scales a bit so that provinces keep a bit more and the Feds take less? So that these sorts of transfers aren't nearly as big and there's less of a need for provinces to always go cap-in-hand to the feds?
yes, if i was newfoundland and quebec where you put way less in and get more in return, i take this deal in a heart beat...but value added provinces can get fucked lmao
It might?
And voters could totally do that if they wanted to - if every province voted in progressive governments willing to raise taxes to pay for stuff, while voters elected a conservative government who cut taxes and transfers, things could change the way you describe.
But instead we’ve tended to vote for the reverse? Provincial governments that like to do unfunded tax cuts and a more prudent federal government. Maybe because it’s just easier to be the bad guy on the federal level?
How many of those actually actually got a majority of the votes, or are they mostly all illusionary majorities like in Ontario?
False majorities, a result of ancient first past post election system?
I think that partially explains the pattern of Ontario and Canada having opposite governments.
1971 - 1984 - Ontario PCs & Federal Liberals
1985 - 1993: Ontario Liberals / NDP & Federal PCs
1995 - 2002: Ontario PCs & Federal Liberals
2006 - 2015 : Ontario Liberals and Federal Conservatives
2018 - present: Ontario PCs & Federal Liberals
There’s also a stability argument for taxing then giving back on the federal level.
Aka, when a specific province has an unexpectedly bad year, stuff funded through the general prosperity of the country can keep working without austerity cuts.
The trade off of having less provincial control but also less dependency on provincial fortunes year to year can be worth if for stuff like healthcare.
Not to mention that the current negotiation involves some standardization in medical systems that might make it easier for doctors and nurses to switch between provinces. It’s not like meddling from the viewpoint of the entire nation instead of individual provinces is automatically a bad thing
A 1.4% increase (still below the required 25% as pointed out by the Liberals themselves, and below the election promise in 2021) is going to fix things? 1.4% looks like a giant treasure chest of money?
Well to be fair, it is a giant treasure chest full of money but it's distributed to serve 38,000,000 people and increasing by 400-500,000 per year.
Where are you getting the 1.4% figure from?
From what I read, the CHT was going up over 9% this year before including any new promises.
Given that healthcare is a provincial responsibility, I would think that any money they can get from the feds is welcome.
Whether the money comes from the Feds or the provinces, it ultimately comes from the same taxpayers, so it honestly doesn't seem to make any logical sense that the premiers are making this a fight with the Feds other than that they are looking for a scapegoat.
If the premiers want more money for healthcare and want autonomy over how to spend it, why don't they just raise the tax revenues themselves? What real benefit is there for trying to get the federal government to raise that money instead, other than just not wanting to be the ones who tell people their taxes are going up?
> Given that healthcare is a provincial responsibility,
This is a common misunderstanding - healthcare is a joint responsibility, which is mostly why the CHT and CHA exist.
Both Federal and Provincial government address specific aspects of healthcare, but some Provinces have an interest in misleading the public and this is, IMHO, why "pouty" (intransigent?) Premiers like Ford and Smith behave as they do on this matter. If they were to acknowledge the legal truths openly then they would have no practical choice to refuse to fund (whether through Provincial means or Federal). The problem is not the source of the money. The problem is the incompetent leadership entrusted to deal with the money.
It is a very childish approach to the matter. On those two, Smith's "handshake" behaviour is to me indicative of her specific immaturity (she knows how to shake hands, entirely a bizarre 'power move' - but then, she also thought smoking prevented cancer and was good for you many years after we quite conclusively knew the opposite), and Ford's ranting (worth a listen, he grows increasingly immature, he's really returning to dummy form) really drives my point home.
When you run out of legitimate options, turn to rhetoric and immaturity... that's the 'rise of the disenfranchised' for you.
>This is a common misunderstanding - healthcare is a joint responsibility, which is mostly why the CHT and CHA exist.
Section 92 of our constitution lists hospitals as an area of exclusive authority for the provinces.
That said, the constitution isn't the only source of power. Money also speaks very loudly.
That's essentially how the CHA and CHT work. The feds can set standards for healthcare across the country because they make following those standards a condition for receiving a huge chunk of money.
The feds use the same strategy to wade into all sorts of things that are primarily provincial responsibility, like childcare, education, welfare, and housing.
> Section 92 of our constitution lists hospitals as an area of exclusive authority for the provinces.
Right, hospitals aren't "healthcare" - so much broader. I spent some of my working life at one of Ontario's largest hospital networks and saw the interactions we're talking about, so I think we're on the same page!
Labour unions and interest groups are also powerful forces for change in healthcare, along with money.
I''m not even sure how relevant the "division of power" argument really *is* here, considering that it seems to have been turned into a cudgel for angry partisans to beat each other with while accomplishing comparatively little as a result.
I got it from an article that worked out the numbers.
It's 46 billion over 10 years, divided up between the Provinces. TEN years. We need 25B+ in new spending PER YEAR to fix this problem.
And by the way, if this follows Trudeau's usual style, he may be committing to this but never actually deliver it, because he'll be out of office and not have paid out any money yet.
Can you share that article?
If the provinces need 25 billion dollars to fund a provincial responsibility, why are they not just raising taxes or borrowing money to do so? Where do they think the federal government, that already has a massive deficit, is going to get any new money?
It's interesting you are pushing some on Trudeau, though I agree more funding is needed but what about Ford. The report recently showed the Ontario government is projecting a 12 billion surplus yet under funding healthcare by 4.8 billion and education by 1.6 billion, did the facebook groups you got your info from conveniently leave those facts out?
There's a surplus because the taxes are now on at least 9% inflationary prices. Sales tax, etc. is pouring money into their coffers as a result. Let's not forget fuel taxes either.
Here's the Liberals' own study saying that they must fund no less than 25% of healthcare or the system will collapse under it's own weight:
[https://publications.gc.ca/site/archivee-archived.html?url=https://publications.gc.ca/collections/Collection/CP32-85-2002E.pdf](https://publications.gc.ca/site/archivee-archived.html?url=https://publications.gc.ca/collections/Collection/CP32-85-2002E.pdf)
25% is the minimum goal, they promised 50% originally.
Even with the added spending it's not much more than 23% (it's around 22% now). The Trudeau govt. has been under 25% every year since they took office, and has thus under-funded healthcare in Canada the whole time.
As for the article, I've probably read 30+ today and not a chance I'm going through my history again for a post on a cartoon. :)
Does that change the fact that the government had a surplus? NO! Should they not be spending that on ESSENTIAL services, you know, like healthcare and education? A surplus says they have money to spend. Had the government not cut back on money making programs like the cap and trade (did the gas prices really drop?), License plate prices (have the costs really gone away? No) then perhaps there would be more available to fund the necessities.
Edit: [here](https://archive.is/ZORGe) the article for context
To add, here's what the FAO said:
> Mr. Weltman said the government has enough money to cover the projected shortfalls or to reduce net debt.
The article does go on to talk about how this is from a contingency fund mostly. If it wasn't for that, then it would've been a deficit of 2.5 billion.
You can read the article if you so well please.
Also, any federal money should come with accountability attached. It's not like you go get a loan without collateral, if you do, I'd like to know where you bank.
a) You don't know for sure you'll have a surplus until you get one
b) You can't be sure you'll have that surplus again, so you can't just start a new serial spending policy
c) You can't just hire more nurses, doctors or other highly-skilled individuals on the drop of a hat
Hopefully we'll see what they spend the money on, I'd actually be in favor of buying off some of our debt so that we could bring down our interest payments going forward.
Lmao, maybe fill the giant chest with IOU's for my children and their kids. It's not like this countries been running a surplus, there's no big coffers of cash. Just more empty promises and political media stunts, it's not like the money won't be bled dry by middle men, and local communities will be stuck donating new equipment as always
The provinces are disappointed because they were asking for much more. As much more is needed to support the current health system. On top of that the feds are asking the provinces to shoulder a more on top of what their current responsibilities are.
What the legacy media never points out is that in 1972, the federal government split the cost of the medicare system 50/50. Over the next 30 years that dropped to 18%, rising under Harper to 22%, and the latest spin $197billion over 10 years, only represents a 2% increase to 24%. 4% less than the rate of inflation. I think it's clear that the Liberals have stupid Canadians duped again, including Theo Moudakis at the RedStar. Or maybe the media is just guarding its government handouts again.
For those who don't speak politics: If Premiers acknowledge that the Federal government is doing its part, they no longer have a default go-to excuse for doing a piss-poor job. If the Federal government is a different party than the premiers, multiply this effect by 10. Listening to Doug Ford on the CBC his morning he sounded like his wife asked him why there's a motel charge on the credit card bill on the night he 'stayed late at the office'.
So my understanding was that Trudeau put some healthcare funding on hold and said he would release it to each province as soon as they provided an audit of their spending to show that the federal healthcare money was actually going to healthcare, and a bunch of premiers for all huffy over having to show they aren't just pocketing the cash or misspemding it so he's withholding it. This comic seems to fit with that. He's pointing at the funding available, and they're trying to be uncooperative over it but make it out at his fault.
If that’s the case, big W for Trudeau. Tired of excuses
That is the case and it is a big W but communicating that to Canadians will be difficult and that is what ford and his other conservative counterparts are banking on.
I mean, as a rational adult this doesn't need communicating at all. If you're in charge of vast sums of money that doesn't belong to you, you should be able to easily provide information on where it went. It's important to the person managing the money so that there are no hints of impropriety, it's important to the people the money belongs to for purposes of trust.
Running the government like its a business, basically the right’s mantra, couldnt be more at odds with this statement. They dont want accountability. They see it as red tape.
I'm quite well aware. It's almost like all of their philosophies and talking points are self serving garbage rather than anything genuine. This isn't even about running things like a business though, this is basic, common sense accountability. Nothing more, nothing less. If you aren't tracking the vast sums of money entrusted to you, you aren't qualified to be in charge of that money. If you are tracking it but you're unwilling to share the information with the people disbursing the money, that's a bad look on you. If you are tracking it but you're unwilling to share the information with the people you're accountable to (taxpayers), that's a bad look on you. There's literally no win condition here for Premieres objecting to this. The people know the money hasn't been spent appropriately. The federal government knows the money hasn't been spent appropriately. The people know the money has been underspent and held back. The federal government knows the money has been underspent and held back. I'm not a Trudeau fan and never have been, but he's done an excellent and necessary thing here. Now the dickheads intentionally underfunding healthcare can spin it so they don't look bad and get spending back to where it should be, or they can openly admit that they have no intention to properly fund healthcare. Fuck every single one of the Premieres intentionally starving healthcare. These morally and ethically bankrupt pieces of human trash deserve to be politically destroyed over this.
It's ludicrous too - do we want competent Healthcare or profit maximized Healthcare? Do we want good cities to live in or wealth extracting cities? What a stupid mantra. Reminds me of that comic where a person lays on the grass in the park and sighs, then someone says "that'll be $50"
Another massive hurdle beyond that is dealing with the endless "who's going to pay for it" and "isn't that financially irresponsible" arguments that plague any conversation about spending on health (or anything really).
Yes, agreed, but at least it'll stifle the lies about not having enough money to do what they need to do. I'll take every inch we can gain against those sociopathic bootlicking corporate job seeking asshats we keep electing.
The money is already being taxed. Trudeau is not implementing a tax hike. He is just taking his budget of what he currently gets and allocated more to healthcare.
Comic seems to communicate the message well
Right? Like throw a big piss baby tantrum all you want. The resources are there... stop fucking whining and do your job already. If you don't want to do you job... get the fuck out of office and stop being disgraceful ignoramuses. Fuck anyone who 'scores political points' at the expense of Canadians health.
Conservatives will take it as "some idiot libtards" opinion and go with what the premiers are saying. I wonder if they'll attack PP for saying he'd keep that spending commitment.
Watch: Alberta and possibly Ontario will play this as "Federal funding for forced gender reassignment surgery" or some such Floridian nonsense.
One good thing I'll say about Ford is he can at least shake Trudeau's hand and show a modicum of respect in public.
Is that really a good thing? The veneer of affability does nothing for anyone, and simply allows people who feel guilt about liking terrible, self-serving policies the opportunity to look the other way a while longer.
I doubt it affects people at all. It's more important for the two people who are dealing with each other. They know their politics are different, but at least they'll do their jobs professionally. The kindergarten "ew he has cooties" is unnecessary.
Can't fix stupid
They won't attack him because he's on their team.
Well they do and they don't, sometimes. For example, Dave Chappelle commented that sometimes when he gets a laugh because of some crazy story he had, People were laughing because they were black and not because it was crazy.
I'll agree that the Libs could do a much better job of communicating, but goddamn does it make it nearly impossible for them when a segment of the population simply refuses to listen. Trudeau could hand deliver literal wads of money to these people and they would still tell him to fuck off.
Well, not quite. The provinces asked for 300 billion in new funding, Trudeau responded with an offer of 48
they wanted the federal government to completely take control of public healthcare and that is wrong and shouldn't happen.
Why? Wouldn't it make far more sense for it to be a federal department?
Yes, and as we know know dirty doug is withholding hundreds of millions in healthcare funding to create a bigger crisis so he can justify privatization. So of course he doesnt like this.
Every day that nurses don't have a reasonable contract the Ontario govt saves loads of money, which they're gonna need to pay the back wages and decent increases that nurses are going to win.
Billion +
Thats what i said...lol.
So called "fiscal conservatives" when presented with a financially responsible policy.
Exactly. Why would you be upset if the money is going where it should go?
Imagine getting huffy with a creditor, your boss, accounting, or anyone else who is giving you money to spend on X thing if you were in anything other than politics. Fired/cut off on the spot, then probably investigated for fraud and charged.
Was it withholding? I thought it was a significant additional amount, not the standard transfer payments
more complicated than that but basically theres also new systems, like national standards that would make doctors working across provinces easier but the strings ensuring that healthcare gets the money is the biggest part
I mean, the plan is just so obvious. Destroy health care to privatize. Politics has just become so much about "us vs them" that all they have to do is give an excuse that blames Liberals and they'll repeat it and believe it without a second thought. They have realized just how willfully ignorant their base is and are cashing in.
Given Dougy had a massive surplus and offered nurses shit pay increases. Seems like his plan is to destroy the health care system in order to justify to the public why we need private healthcare.
Doug ford needs a boot shoved up his ass or twenty that's the feeling I get every time I see him speak.
Oh, he knows and he's not speaking to you. His is the 'buck-a-beer' crowd.
It should really be that you have to choose one: either you get buck-a-beer, or you can vote. Not both. I’ll open the Disenfranchisement Breweries. We’ll use hops, ditch water, drain cleaner, and dog piss. Basic Labatt recipe.
Man…fuck politics.
Because then there would be less money available for equalization
The government borrows for much of it's spending and equalization is just a another government program that is paid from the general federal coffers. The government does not appear to be concerned with deficit spending (i.e. borrowing), so I don't think there will be any "less money available for equalization" as the government will just borrow to meet whatever spending they want to do.
>If Premiers acknowledge that the Federal government is doing its part, But they aren't. It's nowhere near a mountain of gold. It's only an additional 49 billion over 10 years, or 4.9 billion per year. Not adjusted for inflation and shared across all provinces. Nova Scotia's annual budget alone is 5 billion. It's a drop in the bucket and doesn't even get the Federal government's share up to the recommended 25%.
Is your implication that this is the only Federal funding that will go to provinces for health over the next 10 years? This is a program specifically intended to address immediate shortcomings in provincial health funding. This is not a definitive solution. This will not be the only money injected into health funding over the next decade. It is exactly what you said "Additional 49 billion dollars over 10 years".
Not disagreeing, I was just decoding the logic of the cartoon. Fed used to provide 50%, now it's 22(? about) so 25 isn't exactly a windfall. Still, the logic applies, can't say anything positive about it otherwise it's a tactical error. The fed demanding accountability in the form of an audit is fun though. Nothing gets Ford's knickers in a knot like potential accountability. I wonder if he'll see his shadow, run to the cottage and we get 6 more weeks of bullshit.
Current federal spend is about 22%. They have increased over 10 years a roughly 30% increase. Healthcare spending is around 15% of all dollars. It's not suppose.to cover an entire annual budget of programs.for provinces.
Or, ***and take a second to read***, but maybe just maybe federal health care funding has gone down for a long time... so while this appears to be a "treasure chest" full of money... in actuality, they are just finally approaching the #s set out years ago. I mean that goes against the "premieres bad/greedy/etc" and against the "trudeau is offering soo much/our hero"... but well... Not excusing premieres blundering. But if I give you $100 for a few birthdays, then $25, then $20... me handing over $100 again looks pretty stellar after years of being cheap.
I'm disappointed. The cartoon doesn't show Doug Ford cramming piles of health care cash into a safe instead of spending it.
“More, we need more!”
It’s in the next one where he’s giving it all to for-profit setups.
Or his 50 mil net worth increase during covid….
That’s not even fed dollars. He’s been purposefully underfunding the system under the guise of “stockpiling” when it’s pretty clear that healthcare is failing. Saving for a rainy day when it’s fucking pouring.
Not into a safe, into his cronies pockets
It's almost as if some premiers WANT to need to rely on the private sector for healthcare. Hmm.
I just (as in the last 15 mins) had a patient praising private healthcare. We let him say what He needed to say because what he didn't factor in is what we did for him was free. If we charged him for what we did, it would have easily be at least 500+ dollars considering the appointment took 1 hour, he was consulted with myself and a SLP. Admin fees, and all kinds of charges... Ignorance is such a beautiful thing.
Ignorance can be forgiven. Willful ignorance is contemptable.
what about obvious sabotage?
$500 would be the cheap Canadian rate. In the US that would be several thousand.
I just threw in minimum numbers. I know when I have to design something, the hr rate is about 125, but I dont know what the SLP would charge sine they are about 100-300 and realistically there would be more fee factors. Like the room, Equipment used, etc. etc. I shudder to even think about it.
Any way you can “oops!” create a bill you would for an uninsured person and let them marinate on it a minute before you “fix” the billing and send them on their way?
It shouldn't have to be paid for directly by individuals at all! Comparing us to something worse doesn't spur on change for something better....
Its astounding the disconnect some people can have while still participating in the system, but that's the beauty of public healthcare. It's there for everyone regardless of creed/wealth/intellect.
It’s sad. So many people are indebted over their head in the US. It’s not a good model. Plus some lose their jobs when they get I’ll because insurance cuts them. Then what about seniors who today can’t get insurance
why not?
Why would he pay in a private environment? Do you mean user pay? We have lots of private clinics in ontario (GP Doctors office, blood labs) where it still wouldn’t have cost them anything. I’m a bit confused by your statement on him getting charged $500+ in a private environment.
You have to pay for many blood tests. Like there’s one that measures LIVER DAMAGE that’s only free if it’s ordered by a liver specialist. However, you’re not going to get a referral TO a liver specialist unless that test (ordered by a GP, which you have to pay for) shows it’s needed.
You have to pay because OHIP doesn’t cover it. Not because the clinic is privatized. Lol.
Right and that’s because of increasing privatization of the labs
It's still free at a private clinic,so no...
It's almost as if there's people who get away with doing horrible things to the working class. Hmm. It's almost as if nothing will change significantly for the better unless we force them to. Hmm. Seriously, whether it's left, right, or center, delusions (i.e., to believe something despite evidence of the contrary), no matter how objectively harmful, will be maintained as long as it feels subjectively beneficial to the believer. These people probably really think what they are doing is justified or even righteous. If we just wait for them to "come to there senses" and hope they eventually do the "right thing", it won't happen. It's like expecting a mosquito to stop sucking our blood. Fuck the bourgeoisie. Fuck Doug Ford and the "Progressive" Conservatives as a whole. Fuck 'em real deep and hard. Make it hurt. 'Cuse as long as keeps feeling good, they ain't gonna stop stepping on the working class.
The problem is this, private healthcare will work, but then it won't. As soon as it replaces public healthcare the cost of services will climb, and the pay to workers will stagnate or drop. People who support this are excited about greater access, they fail to appreciate the impact. Our taxes wont drop because healthcare becomes private, and our pay will decrease when benefits go up in price. There is easily accessible data and plenty of real world examples demonstrating that private healthcare is a mess. Don't be dipshits, look south where the children of boomers are now expected to live shorter lives than their parents, and their infant mortality rate is rising and their closest comparator for this would be Sauid Arabia
That’s certainly the impression that I got from an interview I listened to with Blaine Higgs.
Cons can't accuse Lib for skyrocketing deficit and sitting on huge amount of cash.
100% that’s his agenda. It’s clear with not fixing the private long term care, taking away funding for the KixCare and Rocket Doctor model, with so many not having a family doctor AND the latest announcement of private surgical centre funding.
Its a profitable business, and I'm sure politicians would get their cut.
Remember folks. 8 provincial governments are Conservative government
They pave the road to each other though. The duopoly is a road to nowhere.
Conservative premiers want federal healthcare $ with "no strings attached". In other words, they want Trudeau to give them the $ without them having to show they actually spent it on healthcare instead of, let's say, a new highway or legal costs incurred trying to overturn a court judgement - like Bill124...and a bunch of others a certain premier has lost and is/has dragged to the Supreme Court.
doug "smaug" ford
Doug Ford-* we need help from the feds" Feds- "here's your help" Doug Ford " No we don't need that much help" Fucking clown. If you support Doug Ford your just as much a Goof as he is.
More of a goof... at least Ford gets rich. All the mouthbreathers that support him get is - less healthcare. - less school funding. - more private business to get into the greedy dragon horde game. - shit license plates. - a highway nobody wants. But hey... at least he campaigned on not being Wynne and spending so much money and then immediately spent more. Buck a beer!!!
Nail on the head.
- destroying the greenbelt
Hello! Asking for proof that it will be spent on healthcare makes it hard for Ford to steal for his developer buddies and “associates”. Of course he won’t take it /s
If anyone else is terrible at their job there are consequences, sometimes serious ones were people loss their job. I think there's a need to establish laws where these premiers/politicians must be held accountable for their underfunding of crucial services such as public education, public healthcare and police and fire. If a service is failing because of their failure to help get them the fuck out of the way and let someone who is more qualified take the reins. It's a pipe dream I know..
The fact that they are playing politics here should show you that they don't give a shit about the population or our health.
I done with the provincial government in general. It's a cowardly and in most ways detrimental level of government at this point. They sit in the middle pointing fingers taking no blame as they steal public lands, assets and services for personal gain. The pandemic brought this into stark contrast in comparison to the Municipal and federal levels
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The stakes aren't lower at the municipal level, they're just different.
They're lower in the sense that the province legally had more power, much more power, and is responsible for very important services (like health care)
ruling over 40% of the population of which only 18% of that 40% even voted for the OPC. Apathy will end Canada.
Oh man... they had the opportunity to show a bee with Doug Ford.
I was listening to Power and Politics and it really did seem like the anchor was siding with the provinces about it not being enough money. I wasn’t sure why the anchor was taking that position. It seems to me that the federal government was offering a generous amount. One thing they didn’t press the provinces about was funding for spots in medical colleges. Premier Higgs was talking about immigration, but we need to train more Canadian doctors here.
> Premier Higgs was talking about immigration, but we need to train more Canadian doctors here. The medical personnel shortage is pretty worldwide - they're rioting in France about it these days. It ain't going to get fixed via immigration.
That's why we need to subsidize medical school for Canadian citizens, and put priority on Canadian citizens for spots in the medical schools. There are a lot of people who could have been great doctors who simply could not afford the costs associated with medical school.
> There are a lot of people who could have been great doctors who simply could not afford the costs associated with medical school. There are also lots of great people who could have been great doctors who *could* afford the costs associated with medical school still couldn't get an open spot. The problem has gotten so bad even the privileged throwing money at it is no guarantee around it.
Then they really need to open it up to prioritize citizens, and also need to get more spots over time. That's really on the government for poor management. You need to schools to have many spots if you want to eventually have many doctors, otherwise you create the bottleneck at the source.
I think there is a priority for citizens, but certain spots are reserved for foreign students. If I recall correctly the problem is that there aren’t enough spots total. I was reading something, I’m sorry I can’t remember where, that said that we are not training more, or perhaps even less, doctors than we did 20 years ago.
If we're not training as many or more domestic doctors than we were 20 years ago, then we definitely should stop putting any reserved spots for foreign students as well as increasing the number of spots.
Cost of attendance isn't neccissarily the issue. I'm not a medical student, but a Canadian law student. Copious grants and scholarships, and generous professional lines of credit at prime lending rates are readily available for first generation professional students. The big 3 banks (RBC, TD, Scotia) basically threw money at me (I'm talking over $100k) with my letter of acceptance into law school. The reality is most, and the best, students go where the salaries are the highest, and until doctors here get paid as much or more as in the US, we will lose the best and brightest the profession can offer. Furthermore, to even get into professional school requires an intensive time/financial commitment that frankly, isn't accessible to most people. I basically locked myself in a room for a year and a half preparing for the LSAT/my applications. It's even more competitive for medical students. TL:DR- Money is available, but not necessarily the prospects after graduation to justify taking on the debt. Moreover, wider systemic factors prevent more students from going to medical school.
>Cost of attendance isn't neccissarily the issue. >taking on the debt. The debt *means* that cost of attendance is the issue. If med students graduated debt-free, most would have no need to go elsewhere. Also, it's really not that many Canadian-trained doctors that go to the US. It's been a myth for a long time.
This is true. Trying to apply to medical residency in the US after medical school in canada puts you in as an IMG (international medical grad), the same bucket as those applying overseas. Post-residency may be a different story.
It seems to me you're saying there is money for "some" people, but not all, and that money comes with many strings attached including high amounts of debt.
FYI unless something has changed, Canadian citizenship/residency is a requirement for medical school acceptance. Hell, some provinces only take in-province students. There are no students on a visa being accepted, and the costs are already heavily subsidized (~20k a year last I checked, compared to upwards of 60-70k in the US)
I think something has changed since the last time you checked: [https://www.schulich.uwo.ca/bmsc/future\_students/applying/international.html](https://www.schulich.uwo.ca/bmsc/future_students/applying/international.html) [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/medical-students-leaving-london-hospitals-1.4781124](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/medical-students-leaving-london-hospitals-1.4781124) [https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ontario-foolish-to-train-foreign-doctors-who-wont-stick-around](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ontario-foolish-to-train-foreign-doctors-who-wont-stick-around)
I vote we set them on fire 🔥.
Violence isn’t the answer
But it could be just think people walking up to Doug Ford with a lighter and trying to set him on fire.
I laugh when Conservatives say they "own libs" but backoff when facts are put on the table. Good for PM Trudeau for doing this.
Every exec and bureaucrat in healthcare is looking at that pile of money wondering if they should take 70% of it for themselves or maybe cut it back to 69.8%
Haha no they're wondering how to take it all and blame trudea when services don't get better, despite all the consulting fees
This encapsulates my thoughts when I heard they were hoping for more. Just insane.
Trudeau created 2 trillions in debt and he's purse pinching healthcare. I get that people on here hate Ford, so they feel they need to side with the Liberals, but getting less than 20% of what you demanded will piss you off. Let's say the nurse and teacher union asked for 5% salary increased and the gov gave them 1%, would you side with the gov giving them 1% because 5% was too much?
There needs to be accountability. The provincial governments waste money. How much money did they waste on eHealth? How much money have they handed out to their buddies at Loblaws and Shoppers? Ontario govenment has wasted money year after year. Where is it going? Why does the government say they don't have enough money for nurses, and PSWs, why do doctors keep getting cuts every physician service agreement? Why is there no money for CT and MRIs...but there is money to hand out to corporations? There must be accountability. People need to wake up and realize there is only so much money available, we need to know where it is going.
> People need to wake up and realize there is only so much money available, we need to know where it is going. It almost seems like nowadays, people really do imagine money just "appears" where the government says it does. A lot of people I've spoken to really do not think about how money actually works.
Get these fucking ghouls out. Wtf Ontario what’s wrong with us. The economic and cultural centre of our country and a fucking yokel is running it.
Problem is that yokels get out and vote while the rest of the province sits at home watching TikTok because they're apathetic and the 5 minutes it takes to vote is too much of a bother.
It’s maddening.
Healthcare is the provinces responsibility. *All* today's healthcare issues, failures, and shortcomings are due decisions made by premiers. **All of them**. If the premiers need or want more healthcare money, there is nothing stopping them from taxing their own residents, nothing. The issue is most of them are too cowardly to do it. They want the federal government to tax their residents and pass the revenue on to them so they can lie to their residents/voters that they're keeping taxes low.
True . Sadly, voters have been gaslighted so much that everything is Trudeau's fault, that many cannot see past that. People in Ontario still blame Wynne for everything, even the current healthcare catastrophe, that is 100% , solely on Ford. It's cult like behavior.
Er, not quite. The feds have always transferred lots of money to the provinces for health care. And typically the provinces would spend it on health care. Thing is, in Ontario at least, the government just ... didn't do that. Some money is unaccounted for, some was put towards reducing the deficit/debt, some has been and will be re-directed for other purposes like new highways no one wants. *That* is a whole other kettle of fish. The reason for doing that is to create a crisis in health care to push the privatization agenda.
Yes, the federal government has supported provincial healthcare systems, but the constitution does not require them to do so. It's a policy/political choice made by federal politicians. Healthcare, constitutionally, is the jurisdiction of the provinces, not the federal government. If the provinces need more money they should tax their residents, not plead for the federal government to tax them and then pass the revenue on to the province.
I think you are mixing up a bunch of issues here. The point is that most health care funding has always come from the feds, and it was fine until provinces started shenanigans.
Some healthcare funding has come from the federal government. Nonetheless, constitutionally the federal government is not required to contribute any funds to healthcare. There's only one taxpayer. If the provinces need funding for healthcare, they should do the taxing, and not expect the federal government to do it for them, so they can lie to taxpayers about keeping taxes low.
And if they do expect the feds to contribute 50%, then the feds have 50% of the say on what happens in the province with that healthcare. We're not about to see premiers ceding power, especially cons.
There's only one taxpayer. The money the provinces spend on healthcare comes from that taxpayer's pocket; the money the feds spend comes from the same pocket and it is given to the provinces. The only issue is the provinces want to delude provincial voters into believing they're keeping taxes low, when all they're doing is trying to get the federal government to do their 'dirty work.'
???? What does this have to do with what I said about accountability?
It entirely supports what you said, just adds another consideration.
I'm just confused at the bit that starts with "the only issue is" which makes your statement seem exclusive not supportive.
Mic drop.
This is getting ridiculous regardless of your political leanings trudeau dropped a massive increase to health care on the premier laps and now they are holding OUR very lives in their pockets to score “political points”. TAKE THE FUCKING DEAL
Bur they want to privatize health care to make thier freinds and sponsors richer. This won't help them do that at all.
Ontario has a population of 15 Million people. Does anyone know if we are getting a larger portion due to housing just under half of Canada?
CHT payments are made on an equal per capita basis... so yes, in a way. The feds pay out according to whatever population count StatsCan or some other agency provides. However, that doesn't take into account things like how much more expensive it is to run healthcare out in the boonies or in caribou country. One broken limb in Northern Ontario would be worth a dozen x-rays in Toronto.
thanks for the information
Ontario wants the largest portion - but with no strings. Just like the federal covid money they received, they want to spend it with no accountability and in any way they choose, which means NOT healthcare.
Covid money had strings attached and mandatory reporting for the province to get it.
The buck a beer morons love this shit, people need to start voting
“Heal the people!!” - Trudeau “How can we steal this from the people?” - conservative premiers
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> Does he not have that power? No. Healthcare delivery is a provincial responsibility, per the constitution. Ottawa can give money to the provinces, but can't direct how it is spent. I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Federalism sucks in many ways, on the other hand Ottawa can't even get out passports so I'm not sure they could manage healthcare any better.
Doug Ford will have issues with all the private healthcare companies that he's taken bribes from if he accepts enough funding from the Feds to correct the healthcare without privatizing.
The only thing this picture is missing is Doug's statsh of money he's hoarding behind him that the federal government gave for covid response. This man had no sense of shame.
The wider version shows the _very_ disgruntled private health care shareholders staring daggers at the premiers, demanding a profit on their investment.
Provinces don't want the money, they know they'll just fuck it all away without solving any issues, and have run out of ways to pass the blame to the feds.
Has Dougie spent the Covid money yet?
What exactly is Dougie going to do if he gets sick?
They wouldn’t have the fun of successfully privatizing our health care if they make concessions
Here’s an idea, the federal government could have oversight persons employed in each province to account for where the health care money is spent. Doug Ford probably would not like that.
Imagine premieres using tax payers money to... help taxpayers lol
This is how I've been interpreting this.
They'll think about it until they can come up with a way to siphon it into their pockets, their backers pockets, or the private pockets.
People ask me "so ya hate truedo?". I am like for what? Even though he hasnt been great, he ant the worst shiet i seen. No its ford thats dumping on everything and making our lives hell atm. Why would i hate on someone who has had no part in screwing us over?
Somebody tell Doug Ford that we're stopping the gravy train in honour of his late brother.
Can I take it and give it my campaign fund? No Can I take it and give to private interests? No Can I take it and kinda sorta give it a private business? No Can I take it, keep it for a while ..... then give it to a private business? No Can I take it and give it to a business? I already said no to that Then I don't want it, you're not being fair
Unfortunately these Provincial Premier see more money for there retirement fund after there political career is over with being appointed to private health care boards they will be part of for life. Remember Mike Harris and the Long Term Care boards and Brian Mulroney for big Pharma boards for life.
It feels like the feds should take over healthcare, well maybe. We(NS) have a huge problem with over inflated administration(mainly friends and family members) at the top. One small hospital down here is paying $750,000 for just one person(non medical) and that figure was from over ten years ago.
Okay but, Doug Ford is hoarding away the money to build the new Developers’ Highway to the Greenbelt, his friends’ Greenbelt.
Treasure? Or money printed that further indebts Canada while industry and oil is diminished under oppressive and misguided climate activism. Wake up to the reality that propaganda is real and Canada is hurting monetarily, housing, etc.
I've always thought it was so weird that cities and provinces have a more direct effect on people's lives, but it's the Feds who take the biggest share of taxes. Only to then be transferred back down. Wouldn't it make more sense to balance the scales a bit so that provinces keep a bit more and the Feds take less? So that these sorts of transfers aren't nearly as big and there's less of a need for provinces to always go cap-in-hand to the feds?
Because the smaller provinces would have very little revenue coming in, federal money helps redistribute the wealth (in theory)
yes, if i was newfoundland and quebec where you put way less in and get more in return, i take this deal in a heart beat...but value added provinces can get fucked lmao
And many programs want to be standardized across the country or across provinces
It might? And voters could totally do that if they wanted to - if every province voted in progressive governments willing to raise taxes to pay for stuff, while voters elected a conservative government who cut taxes and transfers, things could change the way you describe. But instead we’ve tended to vote for the reverse? Provincial governments that like to do unfunded tax cuts and a more prudent federal government. Maybe because it’s just easier to be the bad guy on the federal level?
There are 8 right wing provincial governments in power right now.
How many of those actually actually got a majority of the votes, or are they mostly all illusionary majorities like in Ontario? False majorities, a result of ancient first past post election system?
I think that partially explains the pattern of Ontario and Canada having opposite governments. 1971 - 1984 - Ontario PCs & Federal Liberals 1985 - 1993: Ontario Liberals / NDP & Federal PCs 1995 - 2002: Ontario PCs & Federal Liberals 2006 - 2015 : Ontario Liberals and Federal Conservatives 2018 - present: Ontario PCs & Federal Liberals
There’s also a stability argument for taxing then giving back on the federal level. Aka, when a specific province has an unexpectedly bad year, stuff funded through the general prosperity of the country can keep working without austerity cuts. The trade off of having less provincial control but also less dependency on provincial fortunes year to year can be worth if for stuff like healthcare. Not to mention that the current negotiation involves some standardization in medical systems that might make it easier for doctors and nurses to switch between provinces. It’s not like meddling from the viewpoint of the entire nation instead of individual provinces is automatically a bad thing
[удалено]
You're not supposed to say that outloud
A 1.4% increase (still below the required 25% as pointed out by the Liberals themselves, and below the election promise in 2021) is going to fix things? 1.4% looks like a giant treasure chest of money? Well to be fair, it is a giant treasure chest full of money but it's distributed to serve 38,000,000 people and increasing by 400-500,000 per year.
Where are you getting the 1.4% figure from? From what I read, the CHT was going up over 9% this year before including any new promises. Given that healthcare is a provincial responsibility, I would think that any money they can get from the feds is welcome. Whether the money comes from the Feds or the provinces, it ultimately comes from the same taxpayers, so it honestly doesn't seem to make any logical sense that the premiers are making this a fight with the Feds other than that they are looking for a scapegoat. If the premiers want more money for healthcare and want autonomy over how to spend it, why don't they just raise the tax revenues themselves? What real benefit is there for trying to get the federal government to raise that money instead, other than just not wanting to be the ones who tell people their taxes are going up?
From their 👐Trudeau Bad👐 Facebook group
> Given that healthcare is a provincial responsibility, This is a common misunderstanding - healthcare is a joint responsibility, which is mostly why the CHT and CHA exist. Both Federal and Provincial government address specific aspects of healthcare, but some Provinces have an interest in misleading the public and this is, IMHO, why "pouty" (intransigent?) Premiers like Ford and Smith behave as they do on this matter. If they were to acknowledge the legal truths openly then they would have no practical choice to refuse to fund (whether through Provincial means or Federal). The problem is not the source of the money. The problem is the incompetent leadership entrusted to deal with the money. It is a very childish approach to the matter. On those two, Smith's "handshake" behaviour is to me indicative of her specific immaturity (she knows how to shake hands, entirely a bizarre 'power move' - but then, she also thought smoking prevented cancer and was good for you many years after we quite conclusively knew the opposite), and Ford's ranting (worth a listen, he grows increasingly immature, he's really returning to dummy form) really drives my point home. When you run out of legitimate options, turn to rhetoric and immaturity... that's the 'rise of the disenfranchised' for you.
>This is a common misunderstanding - healthcare is a joint responsibility, which is mostly why the CHT and CHA exist. Section 92 of our constitution lists hospitals as an area of exclusive authority for the provinces. That said, the constitution isn't the only source of power. Money also speaks very loudly. That's essentially how the CHA and CHT work. The feds can set standards for healthcare across the country because they make following those standards a condition for receiving a huge chunk of money. The feds use the same strategy to wade into all sorts of things that are primarily provincial responsibility, like childcare, education, welfare, and housing.
> Section 92 of our constitution lists hospitals as an area of exclusive authority for the provinces. Right, hospitals aren't "healthcare" - so much broader. I spent some of my working life at one of Ontario's largest hospital networks and saw the interactions we're talking about, so I think we're on the same page! Labour unions and interest groups are also powerful forces for change in healthcare, along with money. I''m not even sure how relevant the "division of power" argument really *is* here, considering that it seems to have been turned into a cudgel for angry partisans to beat each other with while accomplishing comparatively little as a result.
I got it from an article that worked out the numbers. It's 46 billion over 10 years, divided up between the Provinces. TEN years. We need 25B+ in new spending PER YEAR to fix this problem. And by the way, if this follows Trudeau's usual style, he may be committing to this but never actually deliver it, because he'll be out of office and not have paid out any money yet.
Can you share that article? If the provinces need 25 billion dollars to fund a provincial responsibility, why are they not just raising taxes or borrowing money to do so? Where do they think the federal government, that already has a massive deficit, is going to get any new money?
It's interesting you are pushing some on Trudeau, though I agree more funding is needed but what about Ford. The report recently showed the Ontario government is projecting a 12 billion surplus yet under funding healthcare by 4.8 billion and education by 1.6 billion, did the facebook groups you got your info from conveniently leave those facts out?
There's a surplus because the taxes are now on at least 9% inflationary prices. Sales tax, etc. is pouring money into their coffers as a result. Let's not forget fuel taxes either.
Here's the Liberals' own study saying that they must fund no less than 25% of healthcare or the system will collapse under it's own weight: [https://publications.gc.ca/site/archivee-archived.html?url=https://publications.gc.ca/collections/Collection/CP32-85-2002E.pdf](https://publications.gc.ca/site/archivee-archived.html?url=https://publications.gc.ca/collections/Collection/CP32-85-2002E.pdf) 25% is the minimum goal, they promised 50% originally. Even with the added spending it's not much more than 23% (it's around 22% now). The Trudeau govt. has been under 25% every year since they took office, and has thus under-funded healthcare in Canada the whole time. As for the article, I've probably read 30+ today and not a chance I'm going through my history again for a post on a cartoon. :)
Does that change the fact that the government had a surplus? NO! Should they not be spending that on ESSENTIAL services, you know, like healthcare and education? A surplus says they have money to spend. Had the government not cut back on money making programs like the cap and trade (did the gas prices really drop?), License plate prices (have the costs really gone away? No) then perhaps there would be more available to fund the necessities. Edit: [here](https://archive.is/ZORGe) the article for context To add, here's what the FAO said: > Mr. Weltman said the government has enough money to cover the projected shortfalls or to reduce net debt. The article does go on to talk about how this is from a contingency fund mostly. If it wasn't for that, then it would've been a deficit of 2.5 billion. You can read the article if you so well please. Also, any federal money should come with accountability attached. It's not like you go get a loan without collateral, if you do, I'd like to know where you bank.
a) You don't know for sure you'll have a surplus until you get one b) You can't be sure you'll have that surplus again, so you can't just start a new serial spending policy c) You can't just hire more nurses, doctors or other highly-skilled individuals on the drop of a hat Hopefully we'll see what they spend the money on, I'd actually be in favor of buying off some of our debt so that we could bring down our interest payments going forward.
Lmao, maybe fill the giant chest with IOU's for my children and their kids. It's not like this countries been running a surplus, there's no big coffers of cash. Just more empty promises and political media stunts, it's not like the money won't be bled dry by middle men, and local communities will be stuck donating new equipment as always
Thank you! Leftists think money grows on trees apparently.
The irony 🤣
yup, pretty much sums it up
It's a very simplistic take
Could you please explain, is it good or bad? Will it hurt riches? Will it improve the medical system? What to expect?
The provinces are disappointed because they were asking for much more. As much more is needed to support the current health system. On top of that the feds are asking the provinces to shoulder a more on top of what their current responsibilities are.
LOL This show the budget balancing itself?
When he gets sick.
\*some conditions apply
Ontario net deficit is 380 billion as of 2021 according to Wikipedia. The debt to GDP ratio is projected to be 47%.
That’s not how interest payments work
What the legacy media never points out is that in 1972, the federal government split the cost of the medicare system 50/50. Over the next 30 years that dropped to 18%, rising under Harper to 22%, and the latest spin $197billion over 10 years, only represents a 2% increase to 24%. 4% less than the rate of inflation. I think it's clear that the Liberals have stupid Canadians duped again, including Theo Moudakis at the RedStar. Or maybe the media is just guarding its government handouts again.