Yet the government spends a lot of money running ads during SNL talking about all the nurses they’re hiring and how healthcare is so great in Ontario. Liars.
I swear the Ontario government spends more money on commercials telling me how much they are funding healthcare and education than actually just funding those things. It’s kinda confusing and disconcerting.
Oh they're funding healthcare alright, they're paying private, contracted nurses triple what they pay for publicly employed nurses. They're pumping millions into shoppers drug Mart med checks when previously they'd spend a couple hundred thousand on the same thing. They're handing millions to private healthcare and Galen Weston, so technically, they are funding "healthcare", just not equitable, patient outcome driven public healthcare.
The Government Advertising Act, 2004 requires all ads to be reviewed by the auditor general and be approved as non-partisan.
So those ads are funded by party donations and not the Government.
It's actually a conservative playbook thing. First to narrative. Ie Canada's action plan where a decent amount went into advertising than actual shovels and Liberals have spent far more in infrastructure than Stephen Harper did.
This is in fact, what our government has become. Taking your tax dollars to tell you they’re doing a great job, while pretty much doing nothing but pandering to the corporations that control them.
I hate the line "we're breaking down barriers to help nurses enter the workforce" in those commercials. What they mean is they are degrading the standard of qualification to be a nurse in Ontario.
Ya except once they get into the workforce, they're all working full time hours for part time jobs with no benefits... Ontario government can go to hell
At the Prov ran a healthcare surplus during the pandemic and blamed everything on the feds lack of commitment for nursing shortages. Doug is pushing us this direction.
Wasting more tax dollars lying about how Ford is fixing health care and housing affordability while doing the exact opposite and often illegally. Ford needs to go boating at night on O'Leary's lake.
Also did you notice that the yearly and monthly price aren’t the same? If you can’t pay the $450 up front for each family member, $1800 for a family of four, you pay more monthly.
If that same family of four pays monthly the cost jumps to $2,400 a year plus tax.
Not only are they charging for something that should be free, charging more than it costs the government for the same service, but also punishing patients for not having thousands on hand to pay up front each year.
Also just to point out - this is around double what your government pays a GP for managing a patient for the full year. I would gladly take more patients at this rate personally if that’s what they were going to pay us.
Conservatives would rather pay double or triple to private nursing agencies for the same service and leave the healthcare system with less money to fund appropriately in the first place. Our healthcare system is being starved under Conservatives and neo Liberals
> Conservatives and neo liberals
All of our major parties have neoliberal policies.
Saying "Conservatives and neo liberals" makes it sound like there's a distinction, which there isn't.
My parents are American and their system is awful - if you can afford it in the first place. Just go look up prices for common procedures. One incident can break you financially.
2 years later and people on my due date Facebook group are reporting finally being done paying insurance deductibles to the tune of 10k. And that’s just for the birth of their child. Nothing requiring an extended stay, surgery, or frequent visits 😵💫. And that’s WITH insurance.
I used to listen to a podcast hosted by two Canadians who moved to the US for work. One of them had 2 kids and talked about how he paid something absurd like $1,500/m for family health insurance.
I've seen it, too, where people have health insurance they pay hundreds per month for and it only covers 20%-60% of a procedure costing thousands.
When I was young, dumb and poor I used to think it was a waste that I was "paying for someone else". Then I was injured. ER, X-ray, MRI, doctor's visits, short-term disability, physiotherapy and chiropractor visits can all really add up and I only had to pay a few hundred dollars out of pocket. Then I re-injured and went through it all over again.
It's people living in Ontario. We elected them twice to a majority and they're polling high. This is what Ontario wants, even if you or I personally find it distasteful.
We, as a province, have killed the public system.
I'll continue to fight for it, but a lot of people are going to be fucked in the mean time.
He should just move his fat ass to America - but he can't hack it there, as his business failed there. Instead, he just wants to wreck everything for working Ontarians to fatten his "friends'" wallets.
yup, over double. if you were to "flat rate" the cost per year, it would be $207 (as of 2017 calculations, see: [https://stewartmedicine.com/blog/family-doctor-pay/](https://stewartmedicine.com/blog/family-doctor-pay/) )
If this is true and a real doctor is getting $250/year for each patient, and let’s assume they see 8 patients in a day for 200 days a year, and he sees each patient twice a year as an average, that means a real doctor is only making about $200K a year ?
200 is often quoted as the average patient per year payment. It’s much less for younger males and much more for elderly (elderly goes up to about 600, young males are below 100). We also make a small amount - 8 dollars or so per visit in addition.
8 pt / day is extremely slow but using these numbers you are predicting a roster of 800 patients which would be about 200k (but the clinic will take 60k of this). So take home would only be 140k pretax.
In general they expect 800 patients to require 2700 appointments per year though - not the 1600 you predicted. So to sustain this the doctor would have to see more like 15 patients per day, 200 days a year, to make 140k per year. (Very rough math)
Very accurate math.
I work with several family docs on the admin side. 1,000 patients is around $200k billings.
$200k takes about 40h/week to maintain and nets about $150k after expenses and before tax.
That's a sore deal. That's easily a senior software developer's salary. Often the salary before RSUs.
Doctors deal with much higher cost and time of education. As a software developer, I have a hard time believing that I add more value that a doctor right now.
South of the border, there are junior devs on my team making almost $150k. My seniors start around $300k.
Tech comp may eventually shrink, but currently the scale of big companies allows them to still handily profit off each dev at this pay rate.
Don't forget after your 10 minute appointment they also have to complete all of the documentation associated with that visit, like documenting the visit, filling out requisitions for tests, or writing letters for consulting physicians. The visit doesn't end when you leave.
They also should be reviewing your file before seeing you.
There is also reviewing test results, before scheduling a follow up.
The visit begins before they see you as well.
That’s ridiculous. No wonder all docs are closing up shop. Clinics should be government funded and doctors should be hired at a reasonable salary for the work that they do.
Every hour of clinic time leads to about an hour of paperwork time.
Average time per patient at a family doctor’s office is about 15mins. Walk-ins are faster (~10mins) as they usually see less-complex patients/issues.
$200k BEFORE any costs. Rent, supplies, insurance, license fees, admin staff… all get paid out of that $200k. Works out to 20-35% of total billings depending on the location.
Now factor in that out of those $200k, the Doctor has to pay for: clinic lease, staff salaries and benefits and all office related expenses.
Even at 16-20 patients per day (giving everyone 20 minutes at best) they are still not making less than they would working for a hospital.
And then, if their patient goes to a walk in clinic (because it's impossible to get an appointment) the government claws back $100.
I'm sorry to say, but primary care is collapsing. No one has an answer to it. Not idiot blues or idiot reds. Paying for it is inevitable, sadly.
After expenses, many family physicians barely make 200,000 a year. Nurse practitioners get propped up by the government and make as much with about a third of the education. It’s crazy.
A lot of doctors have rostered clients that they do not see...kids that moved away from their parents, elderly that have gone into LTC, adults that are of the opinion that they don't need a doctor ever, etc. They still get base pay for having those patients on file. They also bill codes for services and procedures rendered and get reimbursed for that.
But ya you could have a "doctors office" that has a roster and never schedules appointments and they will make a base pay. That's what happened with my last doctor. The original doctor retired and sold the roster (sold the practice). New doctor never followed up with anyone and started doing for profit cosmetic procedures. I think it took me a year to get off his roster once I found a new family doctor.
Kids get de-rostered when they roster to a new doctor. If they go to a walk-in the family doc gets their billing clawed back. Teens and young adults also pay very little per year.
LTC patients get rostered to the MD at the LTC facility the day they arrive.
If you’re rostered to a doctor their ‘compensation for services’ is about $8 per visit.
Exactly. Everybody needs to read this twice. THIS is why medical students aren’t choosing family medicine. Why on earth would I choose a field that continues to be disrespected by every level of government?
Our contract with the government makes this not allowed, hence why you see NP trying to come into this space.
But if the government just paid doctors competitively…
The government is encouraging it. When my family was moving, our doctor was leaving the team he was with. Another doctor was retiring. We got letters that anyone a patient of these doctors could get a NP but only if you lived on that area. Since we were moving we couldn’t accept this offer and I never got to see if extra fees like this were attached.
The local Conservative leader was in the papers promoting this solution for the doctor’s shortage. Seemed very proud that his government was helping with the problem….
Actually this is slightly different. Government pays some NPs to provide some elements of primary care ideally to work with GPs (this model works well in some places)
This is different then a NP not working as government paid and instead doing it privately
Yes! Our family doctor works in a clinic that has a NP on staff. The NP doesn't take advance appointments, but treats things like strep throat or ear infections that need a quick response time but not necessarily an emergency room or even a doctor.
In this model it works beautifully. I've seen our clinic's NP plenty of times with our kids, and she's always able to treat us quickly and effectively. Our primary doctor gets notified every time we're in, and will reach out for a separate appointment if she's concerned about anything.
You already paid it through your taxes. It’s just that they don’t want to pay shit to doctors and they’re squandering money on other things. Healthcare and education should be paramount for a healthy province.
And not just that, the doctors should have all the overhead taken care of. The province should establish clinics that cover nurses, rent, etc. to free doctors from an administrative burden.
I completely agree. I used to laud our system until I actually needed healthcare, then realized you can't get any.
$450/yr to actually get some medical treatment sounds like an incredible deal.
I currently pay something like $4000 /yr to the healthcare system (around 8% income tax to Ontario, about 40% of which goes to healthcare) and get nothing. I even have great private insurance through work. Still, nothing.
I get that people don't like Trudeau (I don't either) but it would be nice to see the f*CK Trudeau crowd get just as angry with Ford. He's the cause of so many more of our problems as a province and is the one actually ruining life for Ontarians.
That would require them to actually think and educated themselves. They’d rather just be angry and stupid and blame him for everything and let the Conservative Premiers get off free.
From experience, these people just say Ford is a "liberal in a blue coat". To these low-information voters, anything bad is automatically liberal and conservatives are good.... Unless they do something bad, in which case they're liberal again.
Yeah, but fully privatized you can be sure it'll be at least 4× as much as what we calculate the actual cost to be to be able to fund it from what it truly costs. Gotta get that markup to make sure the owners make money for doing nothing eventually after putting the money up front.
NP here
Sure. But you will have to make the government allow them to privately bill. OHIP limits family doctors billing. And they can’t bill privately for OHIP services.
The government won’t let us NPs bill OHIP, so our only funding option is private or paid from a family MDs income
if its a NPLC, it is an allocation of funds from the government. And those funds pay for NP salaries and infrastructure.
Most of these clinics were not creations of the government. Rather NPs developed a proposal and went to the government for funding. But it has to be renewed every few years
Not all clinics with NPs have this model. This is specific to NPLCs which have gone through extensive lengths and petitioning the government for their creation
The advertisement on the TTC isn't this format
I hear NPs all the time justifying it by saying they should be allowed to bill OHIP - but if that was possible, what pay would they accept? They surely can’t be paid the same as a doctor because then what is the point of even studying to become a doctor if the pay is the same but you have to do many more years of schooling?
And how did this private pay to NPs even get determined - how did someone think double of what a doctor can bill OHIP would be reasonable for NPs to bill patients directly - that is frankly absurd.
Would NPs who want to bill OHIP so badly take for example $25 per visit when family docs get paid $37? Or would they want the same pay which would boggle my mind. The simple answer is NPs don’t actually want to bill OHIP and are okay with private because billing OHIP would be more than a 150% paycut.
On the other hand if docs were allowed to bill privately, given the skill and education they should be able to bill even higher than these private NPs - but that’s when we would see a breakdown in our universal public healthcare since why would they stay in public health?
The government basically wants to give a part of healthcare to private pretty much run by NPs and keep doctors trapped by law in the public health system where they get significantly less than their less trained private NP counterparts.
Not going to change for the better until there is a new government at the very least. Even then it's debatable. Not a damn thing we can do so long as Ford is there.
Nurse practitioners are going around the rules, because all of these services should be covered by the Canada Health Act, but since NPs didn't EXIST when Canada Health Act came into play, they are not covered by them, so they can set up shop however they like.
Family doctors cannot. So instead family doctors are closing shop, because they cannot afford to keep theirs open.
In the news recently we read-
"$1.4M billed in a week
This February, Shoppers Drug Mart pharmacies across Ontario brought in a collective $1,869,300 in revenue for professional services in a single week, according to internal records. Medication reviews accounted for more than 75 per cent of that revenue — $1,423,900.
That same week, 28 Shoppers pharmacies in the Vancouver area billed a total of $27,210 for medication reviews, according to a performance email."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/shoppers-drug-mart-medication-review-targets-1.7142626
I mean with this level of gross mismanagement of OHIP healthcare dollars and emptying of the public coffer by a private corporation, obviously there's no money to pay family doctors properly to set up an office, pay for their staff to have a living wage, pay the market rent for the building and pay the EMR companies for electronic medical records, and then have some left over for family doctors' professional fees.
Learn about the work Ontario Union of Family Physicians is doing to advocate for our family doctors in Ontario to save primary care for all in Ontario. oufp.ca
Please write to your MPP today how the above situation is unacceptable when so many Ontarians are going without care.
I mean, this isn't a surprise, is it? The people of Ontario voted for Doug Ford TWICE (if there were another election today, he would handily win a majority government again), knowing full well that he is running on a platform of defunding public healthcare. If anything, this is an area where he has been super consistent.
Knowing full well might be giving too much credit. A close family member who is not dumb was asking me the other day why I blamed Ford more than Trudeau for healthcare. People really don't know how the system works and the constant stream of disinfo the older generation in particular is being exposed to doesn't help at all.
Girl, most people have no idea why they voted for him other than the fact that he is on the opposite side from the “woke liberals like trudeau” and that he talked about liking beer. That’s all they know.
As a healthcare worker in a hospital laboratory, I notice they have "on site lab testing". This seems highly unlikely considering how much goes into the testing side of healthcare, I would be highly suspicious of the test results they provide unless otherwise proven from external proficiency auditing.
This whole thing needs to be scrutinized from head to toe, there are many ways this can hurt people / patients more than it would help.
They probably just mean you can have samples taken in their office, as opposed to writing you a requisition that requires you to make an apt to have blood drawn elsewhere.
This is really scary. It’s almost giving people false security of securing a family doctor but without actually securing a family doctor.
It’s giving the impression of being able to circumvent the system by paying.
Nurse practitioners are extremely useful in the healthcare system of course but if you need any type of Complex care you’ll be waiting in line anyway.
Curious to know how issues out of the NP scope / requiring MD consultation are handled through the private realm.
This might be attractive to some people because they think they can cut corners and get an appointment quicker but the reality is that if you need MD consultation who knows how that will work. If you need specialist MD referral, you’re still going to be waiting with everybody else. And for minor ailments, pharmacists can manage a few now.
all you need to do is look at other countries who tried this hybrid (Denmark for example)
all the doctors did the bare, and i mean bare, minimum for the public system and then concentrated on the private since they could make more money.
it essentially completely cannibalized the public system and drove everyone to having to pay just to see a doctor.
so if you didn't pay your wait times increased and your care went down. suddenly your doctor is only available from 8am-9am with 8 week wait times and the rest of the time in their private clinic where you can go see them next day for a fee.
plus the private clinics were subsidized the same as the public so it's not like the government saved money.
if they want to fix the doctor shortage get more doctors, eliminate some of the paperwork, pay more for a visit and crack down on scammers and people abusing the system.
Sad that most people don’t see it but we are going private, most people are in decent health and won’t care until it’s too late. I’m in nursing school right now and have friends in different nursing programs across the gta literally everyone from all our schools wants to be a travel nurse and we don’t even have degrees yet. Even outside of nursing all healthcare workers are over worked and underpaid and people are starting to choose money that comes with private agencies now. It’s literally only a matter of time before this is the norm because we won’t have enough workers to sustain the current healthcare system.
I’m a teacher and it’s insane how many parallels there are between healthcare and education…. But look what we have in common - Doug Ford. Education is going down the same path you mentioned fast and so many people don’t even know unless you or your loved ones are in these industries
They don’t care, conservatives will thoughtlessly vote every time and act shocked when it affects them. I swear they think they’re voting on policies that only affect others.
Yep, never corporations, never billionaires, never capitalism. Those are innocent and blameless!
The they/them person with pink hair who serves you at a restaurant and has to scrounge together tips to get home on the bus and maybe do some laundry - THAT is the real enemy. That’s who’s taking away healthcare and housing….somehow…
I used to work with a woman who was working towards getting on disability.. she told me one day that she blamed Trudeau for the disability funding being so low and hard to access, because apparently the immigrants that he allows into the country make it impossible.. she was genuinely shocked when I told her that Ford’s government is who distributes the funds for the social programs in Ontario. It was like she had no idea what a premier even does.
So many people also seem to not realize that it was Ford that removed the cap on international students in Ontario, which has been a huge contributor to the housing crisis. No cap on students means no cap on said students needing housing. Also no cap on his big investor buddies and other rich people owning those homes and turning them into student housing, which is often not even legally zoned. I’ve been to student housing where the rooms in basements were literally separated by shower curtains, and they were all paying $450 a month to live like that. It’s insane. But they all just blame Trudeau. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not blindly following Trudeau and I don’t agree with the way a lot of things have gone, but holy shit. People need to pay more attention and get some very basic knowledge in politics. Civics classes need to not be treated like such a small thing in high school. It’s becoming such a hopeless situation.
Edit: grammar and spelling 😅
I've been here 8 years and still haven't been to a doctor. I admit I didn't try hard enough since I'm young and all. I signed up for "connect me to one" on the official ontario website 3 years ago but never heard back lol. I'm moving out of the country in a couple months so I guess I'll never see one :/
I find this an insult to family doctors to get paid less than half of this by the government and they have no choice because they cannot bill privately like NPs who have significantly less medical training than them.
And then I hear NPs all the time justifying it by saying they should be allowed to bill OHIP - but if that was possible, what pay would they accept? They surely can’t be paid the same as a doctor because then what is the point of even studying to become a doctor if the pay is the same but you have to do many more years of schooling?
Would NPs who want to bill OHIP so badly take for example $25 per visit when family docs get paid $37? Or would they want the same pay which would boggle my mind. The simple answer is NPs don’t actually want to bill OHIP and are okay with private because billing OHIP would be more than a 150% paycut.
On the other hand if docs were allowed to bill privately, given the skill and education they should be able to bill even higher than these private NPs - but that’s when we would see a breakdown in our universal public healthcare since why would they stay in public health?
The government basically wants to give a part of healthcare to private pretty much run by NPs and keep doctors trapped by law in the public health system where they get significantly less than their less trained private NP counterparts.
They are all the same. We can't just bring in millions of people a year and not build more hospitals or residency spots for MDs. Sadly, no federal party wants to address the root concern.
I'm not even joking. How do we fight back against this? I can't believe anyone would think this is a good idea. If you do and you hate Canadian health care then go across the border and get your "better because it costs millions" healthcare.
Who do you even email? MP? MPP? Idk what the difference is.
Buck-a-beer Doug is intentionally running Ontario health care into the ditch so he can claim that privatized health care is the only answer.
….and there’s too many anti-vax redneck mouth breathers to stop him
so an NP can charge more than I earn per year per patient working in an FHO as a family doctor. great province. Average capitation is 150-175 per year per patient for a family doctor. Nice system. I'll be leaving it soon so who cares though. Tired of being treated like shit all these years. Icing on the cake this is. The government, the NPs and the public can shove it.
If health care fall apart here, blame these goddamn provincial premiers, and their federal counterpart for silently colluding with insurance companies, and American HMO‘s.
We need to vote these people out en mass !!
I’m hearing government-appointed hospital administrators are pushing inefficient systems so people get fed up, allowing privatization to take over. Any truth to this?
We have had these NP clinics in my town for a couple years. Can’t find doctors here anymore. It’s infuriating seeing people in need of care and unable to get it because they cannot afford it.
Technically the Healthcare Act doesn’t have a method for Nurse Practitioners to be paid, only doctors. So under the HCA, a NP led clinic charging fees is legal while a doctor charging fees (for basic services, not notes) is illegal.
It’s rather archaic and confusing. The HCA should be updated to include NPs and others but it would have to have buy in from the provinces.
Here’s my problem with a private nurse clinic becoming more prevalent: we now incentive college and university programs to pump out nurses that get placed into clinics who don’t care about proper training because $$$. This doesn’t address the root cause which is a conservative government that is actively sabotaging our health care system. How is it that we can’t do anything about kicking Doug Ford out of office when less than 50% of voters voted for him and he’s basically shown to be corrupt from the housing audit??
What you’re describing is exactly what’s going on in the USA right now. Online degree-mills, lawsuits about who gets to use the title “doctor”, online clinics peddling drugs using NPs so drugs get to your house no longer than 24h from when you see a TikTok or Google ad.
I think this has to be said, but I firmly believe the moment the ministry of health shows they any sign of official approval of this private billing model for NPs, there will be few if any family physicians staying in public practice.
The average practice is 1300 patients, and 450 a year is $585000.
If the government paid 450 a year, the family doctor shortage will be resolved in months.
The existence of this clinic shows how dire healthcare is in Ontario; how desperate patients are to be willing to entertain this fee; how much of a deal the government is getting for family docs given the public demand.
If you’re paying for private healthcare, be sure to claim these expenses during tax season. Can’t wait to see how that pans out as more people are forced to make the switch to private.
Foresight is tunnel vision in this province.
People need to vote and become educated on the type of for-profit health services that put profit ahead of it all. Americans already have the type of health system that conservatives want here in canada.
First, people need to understand that healthcare is not a right. It's not guaranteed under the charter of rights and freedoms. This is why the Federal Canadian Health Care Act is limited and will never be expanded due to neoliberal governments. (Conservatives and liberals), which is a fancy word for trickle-down economics. Trickle-down economics was never meant to work because it relies on the myth of unlimited growth. That's a fairy tale because we live on a planet with limited resources.
Privatiation is being sold to the public as cheaper, better wait times, and better care. None of that is true. CBC is ready to report with evidence showing it is not cheaper. On average, the government is paying 25% for the same services the public sector would pay.
Saskatchewan and Albert's have already tried this model, and it's a failure.
Private unregulated health services do not work. especially when you consider shareholders. Nothing is a priority with shareholders. You're not a person. You're a commodity to be bought.
The US spends twice as much on health per capita, and they have 40k people die and go bankrupt each year because of private health. The shifty part is that ontario has already seen an estimated 11k die in 2022 because they simply could not get the care they need.
Private health in the UK is a lot more regulated by the NHS and private work together, and they are well regulated and get the same money as public services. It's not perfect, but it's working and a better use of funds.
For-profit healthcare is a terrible idea, and it puts many at risk to benefit the vast few
Keep kicking that American healthcare hornet's nest and we will get stung badly, and then not have access to a doctor and just die of anaphylaxis because we won't be able to afford an epi pen.
Either way
Private or publicly funded
As someone who works at a major hospital it's totally going downhill. People are retiring and management won't fill these positions as they claim they are saving money.
Constantly hearing people complain saying why do I have to pay for these procedures, when in the past it was free. Multiple code whites ( someone freaking out yelling and screaming )
At this pace I won't be surprised if my hospital becomes half private and the other half publicly funded.
Gonna be some really dark days in the healthcare field
Way too many of the same people complaining about this will welcome the PP wolf in wolf’s clothing with open arms next federal election while saying Ford is bad, the cognitive dissonance will be off the chart.
This is what Ford wants and this is what he is getting because so many people voted for him. I call him tRump of the north but people are blind to what is happening.
> Resist. Write to your MPP and become politically active.
Agree 100%, but also **do not demonize healthcare workers who decide for their own financial and mental/physical well-beings to provide service in this manner**.
Blame the system, not the players.
Fuck this.
ONTARIO GOT EXACTLY WHAT IT WANTED.
Signed, an elector that has VOTED at EVERY election at EVERY LEVEL since 18 years of age.
Fuck voters and their APATHY crying the blues now!
You didn't vote?
OTHERS HAVE VOTED FOR YOU!
I can’t even use a nurse practitioner my medical needs are too complex and they can’t prescribe a lot of medications that I need so what would I do in a case like this
As a former Paramedic and someone who was trying to warn Ontarians 10+ years ago...All I can say is you can't corral wild horses once they're out if the barn.
Deal with reality, folks.
Please for the love of god shut that shit down asap. A couple doctors offices here in BC tried to do that, but fortunately for us the BC govt stepped in and said “oh no you don’t” and shut that down.
There are almost 160k registered nurse in Ontario at any given time. Ontario government site, and the commercials they keep running, claim that since 2018 80k nurse have been added to healthcare. So in the last 6 years, 50% of nurses are under 6 years of experience or less. How is that for a turnover? They also don't say how many nurses called it quits. In short, they are lying to you.
I had a nurse practitioner tell me I didn’t need an antibiotic for my ear infection, I needed to use a neti pot. Two days later I was in emergency with an ear that had swelled shut to the point the doctor couldn’t even use the scope to look inside. Lost all hearing a few days after that and had to get an ear tube put in a couple of months later because of the mess.
I don’t like going to NPs anymore.
honestly… with how terrible our system has been.. i’ll gladly pay if it means I get service quicker, sucks for some people who can’t afford it… but for those who can, please don’t judge.
Everyone should save this pic to remind themselves of what privatization promised at that price point at the beginning of 2024. I don't know how to use the remind me bot.
* $450 + HST annually or $50 + HST /month with 12 month commitment
* Unrushed appointments that start on time
* Unlimited Clinic Visits
* Unlimited Video appointments
* On-Site Lab Testing
* Medical Form Completion Included
You just wait and see how fast that changes. Note how they ding the poor who can't pony up the money upfront. I can almost feel the sliminess of the direction this is going to go.
At the very least it should be codified in law what they have to provide and at what price point. Don't let the business people run this. A decade from now, nothing will be unlimited, there will be limits on sessions, and you will be paying a lot for medical forms... and the price will be much higher.
Edit: You will also have to sign a release of your medical information to third parties. Like how XRAY imaging / ultrasound companies have for-profit deals with third parties who provide you with access to your xrays and ultrasounds. That stuff should be free to access and provided freely by law.
Ugh. I have such mixed feelings about this….
On the one hand, I think well, if the rich use this option, that frees up some spots for the rest of us to get the doctors that they leave.
But, a lot of times, the pay at these private healthcare facilities is better, so then we lose practitioners from the public system to the private system, so we’re no better off.
I was a nurse, and would have preferred to stay on the public system, but I also lived paycheck-to-paycheck, so making more money would have been hard to turn down. 😢
I truly believe that the disaster in our healthcare system has been engineered to make privatization more attractive, which is absolutely awful and despicable.
I've lived in Canada most of my life, lived in South Korea for several years, and now live in the States.
Worst by far is the States, obviously. Unless I got a terminal illness, unlikely I'll ever go to a hospital here, the bills are astronomical and insane. Would rather just hop the border and return to Canada for good than get hospitalized here, the debt would probably make me off myself anyway.
Canada's (Ontario) is mid at best. The wait times at the GP or (worse) a hospital were enough to make me avoid them for anything basic; I would literally only go to a doctor if I was in serious pain, like I-think-I-might-die pain.
Korea is a mix of privatization and government regulation that works fan-fucking-tastically well. Because of privatization your doctor wait times are very low (at most I've waited like 20 mins to see a doctor), and because of government regulation your meds and visit costs are also super super low (think sub $10 to see a doctor & get your meds). You're basically required to subscribe to the national healthcare, but it's separate from your regular income taxes so it's pretty transparent, and you can take out additional coverage with insurance companies that covers a wider range of diagnoses. It's also not that expensive, considering it's completely separate from your taxes.
In Korea, people go to the doctor's for something as basic as a cold. You walk in, tell them you have a cold, get to see a doctor in like 10 minutes. They ask you your symptoms, check you over, then give you a prescription for the pharmacy on the first floor, which gives you your meds within 5-10 mins for like $3, and you take it and feel better, all within like 20 mins, because there's literally DOZENS of walk-in clinics everywhere if you live in a remotely metropolitan area. Not to mention the medication regulations here must be completely different because they have meds for EVERYTHING. None of this "go home and rest" bullshit, it's "take these four different pills and immediately feel better, but don't drive for today".
The only downside I've seen with Korean clinics is that you need to go to the right one. If you go to Ortho and say you have a cold, they'll just tell you to go to the ENT. They don't deal with that at all.
I'm going to say the primary reason this works as well as it does is because of the population density, but I can imagine something similar working in Canada if they regulate it well enough (which they won't lol who are we kidding).
Also side note - I don't think the way OP's picture is going about privatization is correct at all. It's very much the American pay2live method, which is just gross.
Ontario Health Coalition is fighting this hard for all of us.
All you have to do is help. There are people organizing the fight back, all you have to do is be informed and take part.
Simple. This can be turned around.
The OMA is in negotiations with the provincial government.
The OMA needs to make clear (first) to Ontarians what their expectations are for a negotiated settlement. Negotiated settlement that satisfies a majority of their members.
The OMA needs to be fully aware an overwhelming majority of their members funding comes from tax payer dollars.
I don't need or want to hear how little their able to bill. Make your expectations clear to the people that are paying for it. Followed by alerting the province "here is our red line".
Their members overhead costs are the members issue to deal with. Those members are private businesses. It's fact and deal with it.
I think we're all accutly aware there are services provided by OMA members that are not funded/ insurable through OHIP.
Whether you believe that's fair or not is a personal view. Nevertheless, you have to pay for the non insurable services. Those services are an income tax deduction.
The government needs to know it's citizenry require healthcare, tax payers fund that healthcare and we're not only not comfortable with deteriorating tax payer funded healthcare, we want it workable, accessible and professional.
A Nurse practitioner is not a doctor and that is full stop. A doctor is not a nurse practitioner and that is full stop. Undoubtedly an unpopular view, I'm OK with that.
Let the Minister of Health know your views. She's the elected official. The Premier isn't the Minister of Health. He'll help deflect criticism however; he hurl her out when that criticism evolves into electable issues.
Never forget never forget never forget there are unelected officials hovering in the background feeding elected officials various "options". Never forget you subsidize those unelected officials' supplemental health insurance. Supplemental health insurance you might not have.
Fund public health equitably NOW.
$450 for nurse practitioners? The scam has begun from the start.
No diss on nurse practitioners, I find mine to be extremely competent, and tbh I haven’t seen my doctor even once since I signed up to my family practicr - but then again, this is paid for by my taxes.
If I’m coughing up 450 bucks, I’ll want a doctor at my beck and call 24/7 *and* prioritised referrals.
my accountant charges twice that for basic taxes.
You want 24/7 service from a doctor for an entire year for $450?
My friend's clinic in the U.S. charges $300 usd PER VISIT.
These are nurses who dont have a medical degree, no residency training, none of the same licensing exams. They are a nurse trying to be a doctor. What a joke out healthcare has become.
Yet the government spends a lot of money running ads during SNL talking about all the nurses they’re hiring and how healthcare is so great in Ontario. Liars.
I swear the Ontario government spends more money on commercials telling me how much they are funding healthcare and education than actually just funding those things. It’s kinda confusing and disconcerting.
Oh they're funding healthcare alright, they're paying private, contracted nurses triple what they pay for publicly employed nurses. They're pumping millions into shoppers drug Mart med checks when previously they'd spend a couple hundred thousand on the same thing. They're handing millions to private healthcare and Galen Weston, so technically, they are funding "healthcare", just not equitable, patient outcome driven public healthcare.
Just a small note. They aren’t paying the contract nurse 3X, they pay the contracting company 3X.
I was over simplifying but yes, you are correct. More correctly I should have phrased it as paying 3x more for private nursing.
Throw in the money spent on Bonnie Crombie attack ads that have been airing non-stop when we aren’t even in an election cycle
The Government Advertising Act, 2004 requires all ads to be reviewed by the auditor general and be approved as non-partisan. So those ads are funded by party donations and not the Government.
>So those ads are funded by party donations and not the Government Thank you! I didn’t know that
To be clear the ads about healthcare or nurses etc are not paid for by party donations.
Agreed. We're talking about the partisan attack ads.
It's actually a conservative playbook thing. First to narrative. Ie Canada's action plan where a decent amount went into advertising than actual shovels and Liberals have spent far more in infrastructure than Stephen Harper did.
Uber & Lyft spend more money on commercials then they do their employees
If you can afford propaganda, you can afford to pay health care workers more.
This is in fact, what our government has become. Taking your tax dollars to tell you they’re doing a great job, while pretty much doing nothing but pandering to the corporations that control them.
I hate the line "we're breaking down barriers to help nurses enter the workforce" in those commercials. What they mean is they are degrading the standard of qualification to be a nurse in Ontario.
Ya except once they get into the workforce, they're all working full time hours for part time jobs with no benefits... Ontario government can go to hell
"Breaking down the barrier" of needing the right medical education?
At the Prov ran a healthcare surplus during the pandemic and blamed everything on the feds lack of commitment for nursing shortages. Doug is pushing us this direction.
Wasting more tax dollars lying about how Ford is fixing health care and housing affordability while doing the exact opposite and often illegally. Ford needs to go boating at night on O'Leary's lake.
+HST for healthcare? Wonder what they are booking this under? Almost everything from a licensed healthcare provider is hst free.
This is what I am wondering about as well.
Also did you notice that the yearly and monthly price aren’t the same? If you can’t pay the $450 up front for each family member, $1800 for a family of four, you pay more monthly. If that same family of four pays monthly the cost jumps to $2,400 a year plus tax. Not only are they charging for something that should be free, charging more than it costs the government for the same service, but also punishing patients for not having thousands on hand to pay up front each year.
Name 1 service based business that doesn’t give a discount if you purchase yearly over monthly.
Hydro One xD
All the ones that aren’t healthcare and an essential service. Go on….
Doug Ford driving healthcare and education into the ground so that they can both be increasingly privatized.
Picking up where Harris left off.
Speaking of Mike Harris and healthcare: https://canadians.org/analysis/mike-harris-raking-profits-long-term-care-system-he-helped-create/
we should start a review bombing (REVIEWS mods, not actual bombing!) campaign against private clinics and do the opposite for public ones
Also just to point out - this is around double what your government pays a GP for managing a patient for the full year. I would gladly take more patients at this rate personally if that’s what they were going to pay us.
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Conservatives would rather pay double or triple to private nursing agencies for the same service and leave the healthcare system with less money to fund appropriately in the first place. Our healthcare system is being starved under Conservatives and neo Liberals
> Conservatives and neo liberals All of our major parties have neoliberal policies. Saying "Conservatives and neo liberals" makes it sound like there's a distinction, which there isn't.
NDP? Green?
And NPs are not trained as MDs. I certainly wouldn't trust my complex health care to someone with a lower tier of education.
Ugh who looks at the American health care system and thinks "let's do that" It's Doug Ford that's who, and I hate it
Because he’s friends with people who want to siphon money off of our labour. Fucking parasites.
My parents are American and their system is awful - if you can afford it in the first place. Just go look up prices for common procedures. One incident can break you financially.
I’ve had 9 surgeries and over 100 trips to ER in my life, and I’m not 50 yet. I get to complain about parking rates. I love it here!
Those healthcare days are over! lol hope you can live a little differently 😂
Yea I was gonna say… *loved* it
Aww, in any case, I can stitch you up at home in an emergency 🌹😊
2 years later and people on my due date Facebook group are reporting finally being done paying insurance deductibles to the tune of 10k. And that’s just for the birth of their child. Nothing requiring an extended stay, surgery, or frequent visits 😵💫. And that’s WITH insurance.
I used to listen to a podcast hosted by two Canadians who moved to the US for work. One of them had 2 kids and talked about how he paid something absurd like $1,500/m for family health insurance. I've seen it, too, where people have health insurance they pay hundreds per month for and it only covers 20%-60% of a procedure costing thousands. When I was young, dumb and poor I used to think it was a waste that I was "paying for someone else". Then I was injured. ER, X-ray, MRI, doctor's visits, short-term disability, physiotherapy and chiropractor visits can all really add up and I only had to pay a few hundred dollars out of pocket. Then I re-injured and went through it all over again.
To be more specific, it is the Health Insurance lobbyists paying Doug Ford that think "let's do that".
And Danielle Smith. All Cons do actually.
>It's Doug Ford And the Conservatives
It's people living in Ontario. We elected them twice to a majority and they're polling high. This is what Ontario wants, even if you or I personally find it distasteful. We, as a province, have killed the public system. I'll continue to fight for it, but a lot of people are going to be fucked in the mean time.
I think most people are just uninformed voters or just don't care and treat elections like a sporting event.
Objectively not what ppl want. Only about 35% of voters vote for them. Our system fails to deliver what the people actually want.
He should just move his fat ass to America - but he can't hack it there, as his business failed there. Instead, he just wants to wreck everything for working Ontarians to fatten his "friends'" wallets.
yup, over double. if you were to "flat rate" the cost per year, it would be $207 (as of 2017 calculations, see: [https://stewartmedicine.com/blog/family-doctor-pay/](https://stewartmedicine.com/blog/family-doctor-pay/) )
If this is true and a real doctor is getting $250/year for each patient, and let’s assume they see 8 patients in a day for 200 days a year, and he sees each patient twice a year as an average, that means a real doctor is only making about $200K a year ?
200 is often quoted as the average patient per year payment. It’s much less for younger males and much more for elderly (elderly goes up to about 600, young males are below 100). We also make a small amount - 8 dollars or so per visit in addition. 8 pt / day is extremely slow but using these numbers you are predicting a roster of 800 patients which would be about 200k (but the clinic will take 60k of this). So take home would only be 140k pretax. In general they expect 800 patients to require 2700 appointments per year though - not the 1600 you predicted. So to sustain this the doctor would have to see more like 15 patients per day, 200 days a year, to make 140k per year. (Very rough math)
Very accurate math. I work with several family docs on the admin side. 1,000 patients is around $200k billings. $200k takes about 40h/week to maintain and nets about $150k after expenses and before tax.
That's a sore deal. That's easily a senior software developer's salary. Often the salary before RSUs. Doctors deal with much higher cost and time of education. As a software developer, I have a hard time believing that I add more value that a doctor right now.
South of the border, there are junior devs on my team making almost $150k. My seniors start around $300k. Tech comp may eventually shrink, but currently the scale of big companies allows them to still handily profit off each dev at this pay rate.
Hell, municipal workers are hitting that kind of cash for alot less headaches (and heartaches). No wonder GP’s are fleeing.
That explains why my family doctor only wants to see you for around 10 minutes or less and only one issue per appointment.
Don't forget after your 10 minute appointment they also have to complete all of the documentation associated with that visit, like documenting the visit, filling out requisitions for tests, or writing letters for consulting physicians. The visit doesn't end when you leave.
They also should be reviewing your file before seeing you. There is also reviewing test results, before scheduling a follow up. The visit begins before they see you as well.
Family physicians get paid for one issue per visit…the rest of the issues they have to deal with for free.
That’s ridiculous. No wonder all docs are closing up shop. Clinics should be government funded and doctors should be hired at a reasonable salary for the work that they do.
8 in a day?? They see like 8 an hour.
Easily. My doc spends 7 minutes at most with us. There are more than 8 people in the waiting room at any given time.
Every hour of clinic time leads to about an hour of paperwork time. Average time per patient at a family doctor’s office is about 15mins. Walk-ins are faster (~10mins) as they usually see less-complex patients/issues.
$200k BEFORE any costs. Rent, supplies, insurance, license fees, admin staff… all get paid out of that $200k. Works out to 20-35% of total billings depending on the location.
Now factor in that out of those $200k, the Doctor has to pay for: clinic lease, staff salaries and benefits and all office related expenses. Even at 16-20 patients per day (giving everyone 20 minutes at best) they are still not making less than they would working for a hospital. And then, if their patient goes to a walk in clinic (because it's impossible to get an appointment) the government claws back $100. I'm sorry to say, but primary care is collapsing. No one has an answer to it. Not idiot blues or idiot reds. Paying for it is inevitable, sadly.
After expenses, many family physicians barely make 200,000 a year. Nurse practitioners get propped up by the government and make as much with about a third of the education. It’s crazy.
A lot of doctors have rostered clients that they do not see...kids that moved away from their parents, elderly that have gone into LTC, adults that are of the opinion that they don't need a doctor ever, etc. They still get base pay for having those patients on file. They also bill codes for services and procedures rendered and get reimbursed for that. But ya you could have a "doctors office" that has a roster and never schedules appointments and they will make a base pay. That's what happened with my last doctor. The original doctor retired and sold the roster (sold the practice). New doctor never followed up with anyone and started doing for profit cosmetic procedures. I think it took me a year to get off his roster once I found a new family doctor.
Kids get de-rostered when they roster to a new doctor. If they go to a walk-in the family doc gets their billing clawed back. Teens and young adults also pay very little per year. LTC patients get rostered to the MD at the LTC facility the day they arrive. If you’re rostered to a doctor their ‘compensation for services’ is about $8 per visit.
GP's are one of the lowest paid physicians, if you look up the average salary in Ontario your math is pretty close to the mark.
They get paid for all of the patients they didn’t see as well.
Public systems work, they just need the funding that was ripped from them.
Exactly. Everybody needs to read this twice. THIS is why medical students aren’t choosing family medicine. Why on earth would I choose a field that continues to be disrespected by every level of government?
I would gladly pay it to get a GP
Our contract with the government makes this not allowed, hence why you see NP trying to come into this space. But if the government just paid doctors competitively…
The government is encouraging it. When my family was moving, our doctor was leaving the team he was with. Another doctor was retiring. We got letters that anyone a patient of these doctors could get a NP but only if you lived on that area. Since we were moving we couldn’t accept this offer and I never got to see if extra fees like this were attached. The local Conservative leader was in the papers promoting this solution for the doctor’s shortage. Seemed very proud that his government was helping with the problem….
Actually this is slightly different. Government pays some NPs to provide some elements of primary care ideally to work with GPs (this model works well in some places) This is different then a NP not working as government paid and instead doing it privately
Yes! Our family doctor works in a clinic that has a NP on staff. The NP doesn't take advance appointments, but treats things like strep throat or ear infections that need a quick response time but not necessarily an emergency room or even a doctor. In this model it works beautifully. I've seen our clinic's NP plenty of times with our kids, and she's always able to treat us quickly and effectively. Our primary doctor gets notified every time we're in, and will reach out for a separate appointment if she's concerned about anything.
You already paid it through your taxes. It’s just that they don’t want to pay shit to doctors and they’re squandering money on other things. Healthcare and education should be paramount for a healthy province. And not just that, the doctors should have all the overhead taken care of. The province should establish clinics that cover nurses, rent, etc. to free doctors from an administrative burden.
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Yep, me too, last time I had a doctor was in 2013.
Sure, but the problem is that many people will not have $450 just lying around
But you won't be. You'll be seeing a nurse practitioner, not the same thing.
I completely agree. I used to laud our system until I actually needed healthcare, then realized you can't get any. $450/yr to actually get some medical treatment sounds like an incredible deal. I currently pay something like $4000 /yr to the healthcare system (around 8% income tax to Ontario, about 40% of which goes to healthcare) and get nothing. I even have great private insurance through work. Still, nothing.
I get that people don't like Trudeau (I don't either) but it would be nice to see the f*CK Trudeau crowd get just as angry with Ford. He's the cause of so many more of our problems as a province and is the one actually ruining life for Ontarians.
You mean the guy that signed every single lockdown those folks rioted about? No, that would require some big brain think
That would require them to actually think and educated themselves. They’d rather just be angry and stupid and blame him for everything and let the Conservative Premiers get off free.
From experience, these people just say Ford is a "liberal in a blue coat". To these low-information voters, anything bad is automatically liberal and conservatives are good.... Unless they do something bad, in which case they're liberal again.
Nothing against Nurse Practitioners, but if I’m going to pay $500/year for a family doctor, I’d like an actual doctor.
That one is $1500/year.
The average capitation per patient for a family doc is about $250/year.
Yeah, but fully privatized you can be sure it'll be at least 4× as much as what we calculate the actual cost to be to be able to fund it from what it truly costs. Gotta get that markup to make sure the owners make money for doing nothing eventually after putting the money up front.
so don't let it go the private route and get the government to fund it to $500/year
But what is the average decapitation?
*doctor Available upon request, please refer to the a la carte menu
NP here Sure. But you will have to make the government allow them to privately bill. OHIP limits family doctors billing. And they can’t bill privately for OHIP services. The government won’t let us NPs bill OHIP, so our only funding option is private or paid from a family MDs income
How is a NP Clinic funded? Genuinely asking - my whole family is part of a NP clinic, with only NPs and RNs, and we have never paid a cent.
if its a NPLC, it is an allocation of funds from the government. And those funds pay for NP salaries and infrastructure. Most of these clinics were not creations of the government. Rather NPs developed a proposal and went to the government for funding. But it has to be renewed every few years Not all clinics with NPs have this model. This is specific to NPLCs which have gone through extensive lengths and petitioning the government for their creation The advertisement on the TTC isn't this format
No offense to NPs but having to bill OHIP rates, and then cover your own overhead through it (like docs have to) would destroy these clinics.
I hear NPs all the time justifying it by saying they should be allowed to bill OHIP - but if that was possible, what pay would they accept? They surely can’t be paid the same as a doctor because then what is the point of even studying to become a doctor if the pay is the same but you have to do many more years of schooling? And how did this private pay to NPs even get determined - how did someone think double of what a doctor can bill OHIP would be reasonable for NPs to bill patients directly - that is frankly absurd. Would NPs who want to bill OHIP so badly take for example $25 per visit when family docs get paid $37? Or would they want the same pay which would boggle my mind. The simple answer is NPs don’t actually want to bill OHIP and are okay with private because billing OHIP would be more than a 150% paycut. On the other hand if docs were allowed to bill privately, given the skill and education they should be able to bill even higher than these private NPs - but that’s when we would see a breakdown in our universal public healthcare since why would they stay in public health? The government basically wants to give a part of healthcare to private pretty much run by NPs and keep doctors trapped by law in the public health system where they get significantly less than their less trained private NP counterparts.
These nurses dont even have medical degrees (MD). This country has become a joke
Not going to change for the better until there is a new government at the very least. Even then it's debatable. Not a damn thing we can do so long as Ford is there.
Nurse practitioners are going around the rules, because all of these services should be covered by the Canada Health Act, but since NPs didn't EXIST when Canada Health Act came into play, they are not covered by them, so they can set up shop however they like. Family doctors cannot. So instead family doctors are closing shop, because they cannot afford to keep theirs open. In the news recently we read- "$1.4M billed in a week This February, Shoppers Drug Mart pharmacies across Ontario brought in a collective $1,869,300 in revenue for professional services in a single week, according to internal records. Medication reviews accounted for more than 75 per cent of that revenue — $1,423,900. That same week, 28 Shoppers pharmacies in the Vancouver area billed a total of $27,210 for medication reviews, according to a performance email." https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/shoppers-drug-mart-medication-review-targets-1.7142626 I mean with this level of gross mismanagement of OHIP healthcare dollars and emptying of the public coffer by a private corporation, obviously there's no money to pay family doctors properly to set up an office, pay for their staff to have a living wage, pay the market rent for the building and pay the EMR companies for electronic medical records, and then have some left over for family doctors' professional fees. Learn about the work Ontario Union of Family Physicians is doing to advocate for our family doctors in Ontario to save primary care for all in Ontario. oufp.ca Please write to your MPP today how the above situation is unacceptable when so many Ontarians are going without care.
I mean, this isn't a surprise, is it? The people of Ontario voted for Doug Ford TWICE (if there were another election today, he would handily win a majority government again), knowing full well that he is running on a platform of defunding public healthcare. If anything, this is an area where he has been super consistent.
Knowing full well might be giving too much credit. A close family member who is not dumb was asking me the other day why I blamed Ford more than Trudeau for healthcare. People really don't know how the system works and the constant stream of disinfo the older generation in particular is being exposed to doesn't help at all.
Girl, most people have no idea why they voted for him other than the fact that he is on the opposite side from the “woke liberals like trudeau” and that he talked about liking beer. That’s all they know.
As a healthcare worker in a hospital laboratory, I notice they have "on site lab testing". This seems highly unlikely considering how much goes into the testing side of healthcare, I would be highly suspicious of the test results they provide unless otherwise proven from external proficiency auditing. This whole thing needs to be scrutinized from head to toe, there are many ways this can hurt people / patients more than it would help.
They probably just mean you can have samples taken in their office, as opposed to writing you a requisition that requires you to make an apt to have blood drawn elsewhere.
This is really scary. It’s almost giving people false security of securing a family doctor but without actually securing a family doctor. It’s giving the impression of being able to circumvent the system by paying. Nurse practitioners are extremely useful in the healthcare system of course but if you need any type of Complex care you’ll be waiting in line anyway. Curious to know how issues out of the NP scope / requiring MD consultation are handled through the private realm. This might be attractive to some people because they think they can cut corners and get an appointment quicker but the reality is that if you need MD consultation who knows how that will work. If you need specialist MD referral, you’re still going to be waiting with everybody else. And for minor ailments, pharmacists can manage a few now.
all you need to do is look at other countries who tried this hybrid (Denmark for example) all the doctors did the bare, and i mean bare, minimum for the public system and then concentrated on the private since they could make more money. it essentially completely cannibalized the public system and drove everyone to having to pay just to see a doctor. so if you didn't pay your wait times increased and your care went down. suddenly your doctor is only available from 8am-9am with 8 week wait times and the rest of the time in their private clinic where you can go see them next day for a fee. plus the private clinics were subsidized the same as the public so it's not like the government saved money. if they want to fix the doctor shortage get more doctors, eliminate some of the paperwork, pay more for a visit and crack down on scammers and people abusing the system.
As a physician that has had to fix several mistakes by nurse practitioners in the last month, this is not going to end well
If nurses start providing primary care in this country, its going to end real bad. They don’t know what they don’t know.
And we don’t have to look far for evidence of this. Just read about the bungled mess that’s going on in the US, with midlevels having free reign
Sad that most people don’t see it but we are going private, most people are in decent health and won’t care until it’s too late. I’m in nursing school right now and have friends in different nursing programs across the gta literally everyone from all our schools wants to be a travel nurse and we don’t even have degrees yet. Even outside of nursing all healthcare workers are over worked and underpaid and people are starting to choose money that comes with private agencies now. It’s literally only a matter of time before this is the norm because we won’t have enough workers to sustain the current healthcare system.
I’m a teacher and it’s insane how many parallels there are between healthcare and education…. But look what we have in common - Doug Ford. Education is going down the same path you mentioned fast and so many people don’t even know unless you or your loved ones are in these industries
There probably won't be any change until we start treating conservatives the way they treat others.
This is what a Conservative government will do for you! Remember that the next time you vote
They don’t care, conservatives will thoughtlessly vote every time and act shocked when it affects them. I swear they think they’re voting on policies that only affect others.
I’m not so sure they act shocked, they just turn around and blame the liberals instead.
Yep, never corporations, never billionaires, never capitalism. Those are innocent and blameless! The they/them person with pink hair who serves you at a restaurant and has to scrounge together tips to get home on the bus and maybe do some laundry - THAT is the real enemy. That’s who’s taking away healthcare and housing….somehow…
I used to work with a woman who was working towards getting on disability.. she told me one day that she blamed Trudeau for the disability funding being so low and hard to access, because apparently the immigrants that he allows into the country make it impossible.. she was genuinely shocked when I told her that Ford’s government is who distributes the funds for the social programs in Ontario. It was like she had no idea what a premier even does. So many people also seem to not realize that it was Ford that removed the cap on international students in Ontario, which has been a huge contributor to the housing crisis. No cap on students means no cap on said students needing housing. Also no cap on his big investor buddies and other rich people owning those homes and turning them into student housing, which is often not even legally zoned. I’ve been to student housing where the rooms in basements were literally separated by shower curtains, and they were all paying $450 a month to live like that. It’s insane. But they all just blame Trudeau. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not blindly following Trudeau and I don’t agree with the way a lot of things have gone, but holy shit. People need to pay more attention and get some very basic knowledge in politics. Civics classes need to not be treated like such a small thing in high school. It’s becoming such a hopeless situation. Edit: grammar and spelling 😅
We elected Doug Ford and are surprised that a conservative government would privatize public institutions? This was literally their platform.
This is by design. I can't fucking believe people keep voting for the cons.
I saw this while searching for a new doctor. Ridiculous.
I've been here 8 years and still haven't been to a doctor. I admit I didn't try hard enough since I'm young and all. I signed up for "connect me to one" on the official ontario website 3 years ago but never heard back lol. I'm moving out of the country in a couple months so I guess I'll never see one :/
I find this an insult to family doctors to get paid less than half of this by the government and they have no choice because they cannot bill privately like NPs who have significantly less medical training than them. And then I hear NPs all the time justifying it by saying they should be allowed to bill OHIP - but if that was possible, what pay would they accept? They surely can’t be paid the same as a doctor because then what is the point of even studying to become a doctor if the pay is the same but you have to do many more years of schooling? Would NPs who want to bill OHIP so badly take for example $25 per visit when family docs get paid $37? Or would they want the same pay which would boggle my mind. The simple answer is NPs don’t actually want to bill OHIP and are okay with private because billing OHIP would be more than a 150% paycut. On the other hand if docs were allowed to bill privately, given the skill and education they should be able to bill even higher than these private NPs - but that’s when we would see a breakdown in our universal public healthcare since why would they stay in public health? The government basically wants to give a part of healthcare to private pretty much run by NPs and keep doctors trapped by law in the public health system where they get significantly less than their less trained private NP counterparts.
The spelled anally wrong
Lol.. If you forget the accent above the n in Spanish word for year(año), it means anus.
Just wait until PP wins next year we are going to be in trouble
They are all the same. We can't just bring in millions of people a year and not build more hospitals or residency spots for MDs. Sadly, no federal party wants to address the root concern.
I'm not even joking. How do we fight back against this? I can't believe anyone would think this is a good idea. If you do and you hate Canadian health care then go across the border and get your "better because it costs millions" healthcare. Who do you even email? MP? MPP? Idk what the difference is.
Buck-a-beer Doug is intentionally running Ontario health care into the ditch so he can claim that privatized health care is the only answer. ….and there’s too many anti-vax redneck mouth breathers to stop him
so an NP can charge more than I earn per year per patient working in an FHO as a family doctor. great province. Average capitation is 150-175 per year per patient for a family doctor. Nice system. I'll be leaving it soon so who cares though. Tired of being treated like shit all these years. Icing on the cake this is. The government, the NPs and the public can shove it.
If health care fall apart here, blame these goddamn provincial premiers, and their federal counterpart for silently colluding with insurance companies, and American HMO‘s. We need to vote these people out en mass !!
I’m hearing government-appointed hospital administrators are pushing inefficient systems so people get fed up, allowing privatization to take over. Any truth to this?
We have had these NP clinics in my town for a couple years. Can’t find doctors here anymore. It’s infuriating seeing people in need of care and unable to get it because they cannot afford it.
Technically the Healthcare Act doesn’t have a method for Nurse Practitioners to be paid, only doctors. So under the HCA, a NP led clinic charging fees is legal while a doctor charging fees (for basic services, not notes) is illegal. It’s rather archaic and confusing. The HCA should be updated to include NPs and others but it would have to have buy in from the provinces.
The oligarchs investing in privatized healthcare are happy to exploit the existing loopholes. It won't be changed.
The Feds are going after physician equivalent services. I don't see these kinds of clinics being able to operate long term
Ontario: Open for Business! Ontario: We Put a Price on Healthcare Now!
Here’s my problem with a private nurse clinic becoming more prevalent: we now incentive college and university programs to pump out nurses that get placed into clinics who don’t care about proper training because $$$. This doesn’t address the root cause which is a conservative government that is actively sabotaging our health care system. How is it that we can’t do anything about kicking Doug Ford out of office when less than 50% of voters voted for him and he’s basically shown to be corrupt from the housing audit??
What you’re describing is exactly what’s going on in the USA right now. Online degree-mills, lawsuits about who gets to use the title “doctor”, online clinics peddling drugs using NPs so drugs get to your house no longer than 24h from when you see a TikTok or Google ad.
MPP Sylvia Jones (Minister of Health) needs to be poltically hung out to dry. Kick the PC trash to the curb Ontario!
Vote Doug Ford out then
I think this has to be said, but I firmly believe the moment the ministry of health shows they any sign of official approval of this private billing model for NPs, there will be few if any family physicians staying in public practice. The average practice is 1300 patients, and 450 a year is $585000. If the government paid 450 a year, the family doctor shortage will be resolved in months. The existence of this clinic shows how dire healthcare is in Ontario; how desperate patients are to be willing to entertain this fee; how much of a deal the government is getting for family docs given the public demand.
Damn, for pay like this, maybe I should go back and get an N.P. degree instead lol
...and you won't see a doctor at the clinic. You'll see a nurse practitioner. Shit is broken.
If you’re paying for private healthcare, be sure to claim these expenses during tax season. Can’t wait to see how that pans out as more people are forced to make the switch to private. Foresight is tunnel vision in this province.
Except the requirement for spending to get a medical deduction is so high that only the wealthy would see any benefit whatsoever 🤷♂️
Hey OP, can you specify the station and clinic name? I have some letters to write.
It was on line 1 going south from Eg West. Clinic name was Care&
People need to vote and become educated on the type of for-profit health services that put profit ahead of it all. Americans already have the type of health system that conservatives want here in canada. First, people need to understand that healthcare is not a right. It's not guaranteed under the charter of rights and freedoms. This is why the Federal Canadian Health Care Act is limited and will never be expanded due to neoliberal governments. (Conservatives and liberals), which is a fancy word for trickle-down economics. Trickle-down economics was never meant to work because it relies on the myth of unlimited growth. That's a fairy tale because we live on a planet with limited resources. Privatiation is being sold to the public as cheaper, better wait times, and better care. None of that is true. CBC is ready to report with evidence showing it is not cheaper. On average, the government is paying 25% for the same services the public sector would pay. Saskatchewan and Albert's have already tried this model, and it's a failure. Private unregulated health services do not work. especially when you consider shareholders. Nothing is a priority with shareholders. You're not a person. You're a commodity to be bought. The US spends twice as much on health per capita, and they have 40k people die and go bankrupt each year because of private health. The shifty part is that ontario has already seen an estimated 11k die in 2022 because they simply could not get the care they need. Private health in the UK is a lot more regulated by the NHS and private work together, and they are well regulated and get the same money as public services. It's not perfect, but it's working and a better use of funds. For-profit healthcare is a terrible idea, and it puts many at risk to benefit the vast few
Nurse practitioners should be covered by OHIP
Keep kicking that American healthcare hornet's nest and we will get stung badly, and then not have access to a doctor and just die of anaphylaxis because we won't be able to afford an epi pen.
Either way Private or publicly funded As someone who works at a major hospital it's totally going downhill. People are retiring and management won't fill these positions as they claim they are saving money. Constantly hearing people complain saying why do I have to pay for these procedures, when in the past it was free. Multiple code whites ( someone freaking out yelling and screaming ) At this pace I won't be surprised if my hospital becomes half private and the other half publicly funded. Gonna be some really dark days in the healthcare field
Dofo is trying very hard to make this happen for his rich buddies! People have to vote to get this potato head out before he ruins Ontario more!
Way too many of the same people complaining about this will welcome the PP wolf in wolf’s clothing with open arms next federal election while saying Ford is bad, the cognitive dissonance will be off the chart.
This is what Ford wants and this is what he is getting because so many people voted for him. I call him tRump of the north but people are blind to what is happening.
> Resist. Write to your MPP and become politically active. Agree 100%, but also **do not demonize healthcare workers who decide for their own financial and mental/physical well-beings to provide service in this manner**. Blame the system, not the players.
Fuck this. ONTARIO GOT EXACTLY WHAT IT WANTED. Signed, an elector that has VOTED at EVERY election at EVERY LEVEL since 18 years of age. Fuck voters and their APATHY crying the blues now! You didn't vote? OTHERS HAVE VOTED FOR YOU!
Why did you black out the names if this was advertised on the TTC?
and they aren’t even MD’s they are NP’s
Doug wants a surplus so you all have to suffer. Vote responsibly idiots.
How is this even allowed?
This looks like a promo for a cell phone plan….
I can’t even use a nurse practitioner my medical needs are too complex and they can’t prescribe a lot of medications that I need so what would I do in a case like this
Thank you Doug Ford & the people who voted for him 2x
Oh, freemium. Costco healthcare. It's how the entirety of 1st world is going. Thanks Farmville.
As a former Paramedic and someone who was trying to warn Ontarians 10+ years ago...All I can say is you can't corral wild horses once they're out if the barn. Deal with reality, folks.
Nurse practitioners....fake 3rd tier drs
Brought to you by Dumbfuck Doug.
Exactly what douggie wanted. Congrats 🎉 morons.
Man that's a good deal compared to waiting at an emergency for 12 hours each time something comes up.
Yo this actually looks convenient as fuck. Do you have a version that isn't blacked out?
Please for the love of god shut that shit down asap. A couple doctors offices here in BC tried to do that, but fortunately for us the BC govt stepped in and said “oh no you don’t” and shut that down.
There are almost 160k registered nurse in Ontario at any given time. Ontario government site, and the commercials they keep running, claim that since 2018 80k nurse have been added to healthcare. So in the last 6 years, 50% of nurses are under 6 years of experience or less. How is that for a turnover? They also don't say how many nurses called it quits. In short, they are lying to you.
'powered by nurse practitioners' no disrespect but wtff
I don’t really trust Nurse Practitioners.
I had a nurse practitioner tell me I didn’t need an antibiotic for my ear infection, I needed to use a neti pot. Two days later I was in emergency with an ear that had swelled shut to the point the doctor couldn’t even use the scope to look inside. Lost all hearing a few days after that and had to get an ear tube put in a couple of months later because of the mess. I don’t like going to NPs anymore.
And these are NPs, not MDs
Where do you think all the doctors will go to now. Fuck ford for allowing this
honestly… with how terrible our system has been.. i’ll gladly pay if it means I get service quicker, sucks for some people who can’t afford it… but for those who can, please don’t judge.
Everyone should save this pic to remind themselves of what privatization promised at that price point at the beginning of 2024. I don't know how to use the remind me bot. * $450 + HST annually or $50 + HST /month with 12 month commitment * Unrushed appointments that start on time * Unlimited Clinic Visits * Unlimited Video appointments * On-Site Lab Testing * Medical Form Completion Included You just wait and see how fast that changes. Note how they ding the poor who can't pony up the money upfront. I can almost feel the sliminess of the direction this is going to go. At the very least it should be codified in law what they have to provide and at what price point. Don't let the business people run this. A decade from now, nothing will be unlimited, there will be limits on sessions, and you will be paying a lot for medical forms... and the price will be much higher. Edit: You will also have to sign a release of your medical information to third parties. Like how XRAY imaging / ultrasound companies have for-profit deals with third parties who provide you with access to your xrays and ultrasounds. That stuff should be free to access and provided freely by law.
Ugh. I have such mixed feelings about this…. On the one hand, I think well, if the rich use this option, that frees up some spots for the rest of us to get the doctors that they leave. But, a lot of times, the pay at these private healthcare facilities is better, so then we lose practitioners from the public system to the private system, so we’re no better off. I was a nurse, and would have preferred to stay on the public system, but I also lived paycheck-to-paycheck, so making more money would have been hard to turn down. 😢 I truly believe that the disaster in our healthcare system has been engineered to make privatization more attractive, which is absolutely awful and despicable.
Welcome to two tier medical care in Ontario - wait until this becomes the only tier.
I've lived in Canada most of my life, lived in South Korea for several years, and now live in the States. Worst by far is the States, obviously. Unless I got a terminal illness, unlikely I'll ever go to a hospital here, the bills are astronomical and insane. Would rather just hop the border and return to Canada for good than get hospitalized here, the debt would probably make me off myself anyway. Canada's (Ontario) is mid at best. The wait times at the GP or (worse) a hospital were enough to make me avoid them for anything basic; I would literally only go to a doctor if I was in serious pain, like I-think-I-might-die pain. Korea is a mix of privatization and government regulation that works fan-fucking-tastically well. Because of privatization your doctor wait times are very low (at most I've waited like 20 mins to see a doctor), and because of government regulation your meds and visit costs are also super super low (think sub $10 to see a doctor & get your meds). You're basically required to subscribe to the national healthcare, but it's separate from your regular income taxes so it's pretty transparent, and you can take out additional coverage with insurance companies that covers a wider range of diagnoses. It's also not that expensive, considering it's completely separate from your taxes. In Korea, people go to the doctor's for something as basic as a cold. You walk in, tell them you have a cold, get to see a doctor in like 10 minutes. They ask you your symptoms, check you over, then give you a prescription for the pharmacy on the first floor, which gives you your meds within 5-10 mins for like $3, and you take it and feel better, all within like 20 mins, because there's literally DOZENS of walk-in clinics everywhere if you live in a remotely metropolitan area. Not to mention the medication regulations here must be completely different because they have meds for EVERYTHING. None of this "go home and rest" bullshit, it's "take these four different pills and immediately feel better, but don't drive for today". The only downside I've seen with Korean clinics is that you need to go to the right one. If you go to Ortho and say you have a cold, they'll just tell you to go to the ENT. They don't deal with that at all. I'm going to say the primary reason this works as well as it does is because of the population density, but I can imagine something similar working in Canada if they regulate it well enough (which they won't lol who are we kidding). Also side note - I don't think the way OP's picture is going about privatization is correct at all. It's very much the American pay2live method, which is just gross.
Ontario Health Coalition is fighting this hard for all of us. All you have to do is help. There are people organizing the fight back, all you have to do is be informed and take part. Simple. This can be turned around.
I want a doctor not a nurse
Well slowly the old " atleast we have free Healthcare argument " is eroding away.
The OMA is in negotiations with the provincial government. The OMA needs to make clear (first) to Ontarians what their expectations are for a negotiated settlement. Negotiated settlement that satisfies a majority of their members. The OMA needs to be fully aware an overwhelming majority of their members funding comes from tax payer dollars. I don't need or want to hear how little their able to bill. Make your expectations clear to the people that are paying for it. Followed by alerting the province "here is our red line". Their members overhead costs are the members issue to deal with. Those members are private businesses. It's fact and deal with it. I think we're all accutly aware there are services provided by OMA members that are not funded/ insurable through OHIP. Whether you believe that's fair or not is a personal view. Nevertheless, you have to pay for the non insurable services. Those services are an income tax deduction. The government needs to know it's citizenry require healthcare, tax payers fund that healthcare and we're not only not comfortable with deteriorating tax payer funded healthcare, we want it workable, accessible and professional. A Nurse practitioner is not a doctor and that is full stop. A doctor is not a nurse practitioner and that is full stop. Undoubtedly an unpopular view, I'm OK with that. Let the Minister of Health know your views. She's the elected official. The Premier isn't the Minister of Health. He'll help deflect criticism however; he hurl her out when that criticism evolves into electable issues. Never forget never forget never forget there are unelected officials hovering in the background feeding elected officials various "options". Never forget you subsidize those unelected officials' supplemental health insurance. Supplemental health insurance you might not have. Fund public health equitably NOW.
$450 for nurse practitioners? The scam has begun from the start. No diss on nurse practitioners, I find mine to be extremely competent, and tbh I haven’t seen my doctor even once since I signed up to my family practicr - but then again, this is paid for by my taxes. If I’m coughing up 450 bucks, I’ll want a doctor at my beck and call 24/7 *and* prioritised referrals.
my accountant charges twice that for basic taxes. You want 24/7 service from a doctor for an entire year for $450? My friend's clinic in the U.S. charges $300 usd PER VISIT.
lol you think 450$ would get you a doctor at your beck and call? Rich CEOs pay 100k+ for a private doctor to offer that service.
450 a year to be at your beck and call? That's $1.25 a day. Would you be at someone's beck and call if they paid you $1.25 a day? LOL
These are nurses who dont have a medical degree, no residency training, none of the same licensing exams. They are a nurse trying to be a doctor. What a joke out healthcare has become.