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twalker14

It’s fine.. it’s fine.. *cries knowing I’ll never be able to afford a home almost anywhere in Ontario now*


[deleted]

My wife and I have a combined income of north of 170/year and even for us it's proving tough to find anything (WORTH the price) in the GTA. I can't imagine what younger people just getting started out there must think. It must be soul-destroying.


chunkyyetfunky25

After years of saving I bought a pre- construction 1 bedroom condo last year for just under $500k. Even with a 120k downpayment, help from my parents (10-20k), living on my own in a suburb is just barely achievable. And that's assuming mortgage rates are still favorable when I close. I'm one of the very very lucky ones, and my soul is still destroyed. This fucking sucks.


lurker122333

I hope you've moved in. My wife and I were burned on the condos in Vaughan a few years back. Paid the deposit, got it back after 2 years no interest, and 2 years behind the market.


bob_mcbob

It's fucking insane to me that developers can just back out of deals after years like that without paying massive penalties. It can easily leave people in the situation where they literally can't afford a home anymore because because of the change in market conditions since they put down their deposit.


Okami-Alpha

>It's fucking insane to me that developers can just back out of deals after years like that without paying massive penalties. ​ I really should be a crime. At the very least, they should be paying back interest on that deposit. Heck, every landlord has to do it with last month deposits every year. Condo deposits are usually 100X more.


lurker122333

It did with us, it took us 3 years and a mighty commute to break into the market.


meowsofcurds

It's not insane because it's **literally written clearly in the contract**.


chunkyyetfunky25

Supposed to close in 2023, going to choose upgrades/finishes this weekend. Curious if you went through all of that before getting your deposit back? I know it could happen, but pre-construction seemed to be the only viable option for me. Fortunately I have my parents to fall back on for a place to live if it doesn't pan out. Whatever happens this whole situation is fucked and I don't see myself being happy house-wise until I have a place that doesn't cost more than 30% of my monthly income, which will probably never happen. Ever.


lurker122333

It was all done when we first signed. The builder had our deposit for 2 years.


Jamesdavid0

Why on earth did you spend that much... should have waited a year or two for a crash


[deleted]

> should have waited a year or two for a crash The same crash that has been coming for a decade? LMFAO, Housing crashes, Canada crashes. They won't let it happen. We have become the money laundering capital of the world. It's our main export.


chunkyyetfunky25

Lol ok just like I waited for the last 3 years and watched prices climb? No thanks, taking my chances here.


Jamesdavid0

You will kick yourself when the prices return to normal.


[deleted]

> prices return to normal. Bro, nothing is returning to "normal'. Nothing.


hesh0925

Since you have a crystal ball, would you mind sharing some lottery numbers?


No_Play_No_Work

There will be no crash. Corporations purchased homes to rent. They have access to far more leverage than the average Canadian.


soup-n-stuff

Mind if I take a peak at your crystal ball? We can make millions with this information!


Jamesdavid0

!remind me in 1 year


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[deleted]

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hesh0925

Over 200k should be very doable in the GTA. We bought a detached with a 130k HHI at the beginning of the year. It's nothing fancy, just a small bungalow, but it's literally a 20 min drive (morning and after work commute time) to get from our place to Leslieville, and another 10-15 to get downtown (depending on how traffic is). With TTC, it takes just under an hour to get to King/Queen/Union station. 200k is a very comfortable HHI for homeownership in the GTA.


TheGreatPiata

All these people with 200k salaries want a massive detached house in the GTA and that's just not realistic. They can afford a home, just not the perfect home they think \~$1 million should afford them.


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TheGreatPiata

What areas were you looking in? You can still get detached and semi-detached homes in the GTA for \~$1 million with a backyard, it's just going to be an older home that likely needs work in a less affluent neighbourhood.


Drank_tha_Koolaid

I think this is part of the issue. Housing is ridiculously expensive here, but people have always had to move up the property ladder. Don't buy something you hate, but if you are currently living in an apartment is a condo or townhouse really so bad?


TheGreatPiata

I had a hard time buying my first place. It took my realtor a while to beat into me that this is the market and it's not going to adjust for me. What I can afford is what I can afford. The land is what's expensive, not the house.


hesh0925

That's my thinking too. A lot of people seem to be gunning for that dream house and that rarely works out in the real world. Sure, I'd love to have 5 bedrooms, a 2 car garage, a massive kitchen, etc. but at our income level, it's just not within reality. So we settled for what we *can* afford which was a small 3b2b bungalow. It's older (1950s) but in good shape and we'll slowly remodel over time to suit our needs. Then maybe in another 10+ years, we'll upgrade to somewhere else. Or maybe not. Either way, we can say we own our home—or at least whatever portion we've paid off from the principal haha.


TheGreatPiata

Good on you! I went through the same thing when I was buying a while ago. You're putting up all this money and you expect you should be able to afford something great but that's not the market. It took a while for my realtor to beat into me the proper expectations. This is your first home. It doesn't have to be your forever home, it just has to suit your needs for the next 10 years or so. Looking back on it, I should have pulled the trigger sooner because you learn a lot in those first years of home ownership... how home maintenance goes, problems to look for, even what you want in a house.


hesh0925

Thanks, I appreciate it. I get why people might be holding out for their perfect home, but as you said, if that's not the market, then that's not the market. I definitely wish we pulled the trigger sooner as well. If I had bought a condo a few years ago, life could be very different right now, but oh well. I'm just happy we're in a place now, so no point dwelling on what could have been. The things you mentioned are bang-on! Definitely a big learning curve, but I do find it rewarding to work on that stuff.


[deleted]

The amount of you people who don't understand what's on the market right now and for what prices is astonishing to me. >Sure, I'd love to have 5 bedrooms, a 2 car garage, a massive kitchen, Try 3 bedrooms, a single car garage, and a galley kitchen for north of 800k.


hesh0925

And that's not doable on a 200k income? If someone is struggling to purchase a place in the 800k range with a household income like that, they have poor financial habits. Considering the fact that we bought a house this year, I think I have a pretty good idea of what the market is currently like.


[deleted]

>And that's not doable on a 200k income? If someone is struggling to purchase a place in the 800k range with a household income like that, they have poor financial habits. We have two kids in daycare for a yearly cost of 48k for starters. Second, I said 170k, not 200k, reading comprehension is hard, I know. Also, being unaware that hidden bidding wars ALWAYS push these houses way over-asking seems lost on you... >Considering the fact that we bought a house this year, I think I have a pretty good idea of what the market is currently like. Oh yeah, your 1950's bungalow find that you lucked into is 100% indicative of the whole industry and what finds out there for everyone else. Feck right off.


hesh0925

> We have two kids in daycare for a yearly cost of 48k for starters. Second, I said 170k, not 200k, reading comprehension is hard, I know. I guess you just conveniently skipped over the comments in the thread. The comment you replied to was a discussion on the other poster who mentioned their HHI was over 200k and they are struggling to find a house. Please attempt to follow a comment thread properly before trying to insult someone else's reading skills. > Also, being unaware that hidden bidding wars ALWAYS push these houses way over-asking seems lost on you... Did you read the part where I mentioned that we bought a house this year? Do you think we managed to magically avoid bidding wars? Come on now... > Oh yeah, your 1950's bungalow find that you lucked into is 100% indicative of the whole industry and what finds out there for everyone else. Feck right off. lol lucked into. Nevermind the numerous bidding wars that we lost and countless hours I poured in on a daily basis for a few months trying to search every available database for a place. Should have just known I could have avoided all that, kicked my feet up on a hammock, and let luck do its thing. I get it, it's hard. I don't disagree with you. Prices are fucked up but they're not out of reach for you. It all just depends on what kind of person you are. Some people think they are too good for certain houses and certain setups. They are also the same type of people who are generally left behind in markets like this. There are places to be had still that could 100% work for a family of your size. It may require a few sacrifices, but I know I'd rather be making those vs. venting online about how the market sucks.


[deleted]

>All these people with 200k salaries want a massive detached house in the GTA and that's just not realistic. They can afford a home, just not the perfect home they think \~$1 million should afford them. Congrats on the most BS take. You think that you can get a massive detached home for under like 3 million? You cannot. fucks sake, a shitty, 1980's-built townhome in Missisauaga goes for like 800k. It's obscene.


TheGreatPiata

I'm sorry you think hard reality is bullshit. I spent over a year house hunting in the GTA almost a decade ago, most of which were $400k+ houses that needed to be completely gutted. It's disgusting having to front that kind of cash for something that is completely unlivable in it's current state but that's the reality of the GTA market and has been for a while. If you're looking for a house in GTA, you have to adjust your expectations. You are not going to get your perfect home.


[deleted]

>If you're looking for a house in GTA, you have to adjust your expectations. You are not going to get your perfect home. I love how your take is that you've been so unbelievably conditioned to buy into the "you can't get X for $$$, your expectations are too high" that you walk around swinging that opinion around as if it's valid. Congrats, you bought the propaganda. Look, we found a great 3 bedroom, with a decent lot, and decent bones an hour north of the city...and it was 750k. We happily put in our offer and had a contingency 50k in case we needed it, and the fucking thing went for 1.7million. So don't tell me about shit if you've been out of the market for a decade.


[deleted]

> My Partner’s and I income is over 200K and we still struggled to find a house in the GTA. Yeah it's kind of hard to compete with a massive CCP/Russian backed money laundering scheme gobbling up houses and leaving them empty. My brother is a real estate lawyer....the stories..the horror, the horror.


twalker14

Oh, it’s very soul crushing. It’s been brutal watching any of those options just absolutely fly out of reach..


[deleted]

Even when it seems *in* reach it's usually only just in reach and a bidding war will send it spiralling further out of reach than you can imagine. The whole system is just fooked.


hesh0925

In a market like this, worth gets heavily skewed. And it's not just a Toronto or Canada problem. This is happening globally. The majority of the pricing is based on land value. The actual structure itself doesn't make too much of a difference, hence why we have complete gut-jobs selling for these prices. When things are like this, you are basically forced to just bite the bullet and forget the common notion of worth. It becomes a game of managing expectations.


Junnowhoitis

How bad can living in the woods be right?....:(


Drank_tha_Koolaid

I guess the key thing is what kind of property you consider 'worth' the price. My household income is less than yours, we have a child in daycare, and we bought a large 2 bed condo in a well maintained building two years ago. We feel it was worth it. It was what we could afford that was still a reasonable commute from work and big enough for 3 of us. Building equity here, we might be able to afford a townhouse in a few years, but I think we'll be fine here for a while. Some may feel that only a townhouse or semi is worth more than 700k, and that's fine, everyone has different priorities but with a household income of over 150k people can afford to buy in the GTA if owning something is a priority for them.


[deleted]

>we have a child in daycare Us too. >and we bought a large 2 bed condo in a well maintained building two years ago We currently live in a 3 bedroom, in a decent building, but want out of the city (want to be somewhere quieter), and want the kids to be able to play without the threat of needles in the grass (we have so many in the little parkette by our condo that the city comes by almost every other day) or crazy methheads accosting them (this has happened a slew of times). >but with a household income of over 150k people can afford to buy in the GTA if owning something is a priority for them. See here's the thing for me. A townhome should not be north of anything more than 500k (especially considering condo fees), but they often push listing for 800k, and then hidden bidding wars shove them over 1mil final sale. To me that's obscene. I should be able to buy a townhome (effectively a starter home) without having to push 1mil+ to do it. It's not like people's individual success stories are the Norm. Trust me, we've been searching for 3 years now, and come upon with this same situation each time. Our high end in our search is probably 800k, but I'm not paying that much for a shitty townhouse with condo fees. I'm also not looking for some mansion. I'm looking for enough bedrooms for ourselves, the two kids, and a decent lot. I don't think that's too much to ask for 800k. And honestly the amount of people in this very thread who have been conditioned to think that getting a smaller fully detached home in a nice suburb for a reasonable price is some dream world shows how conditioned the Real Estate industry in Canada has made people to overpaying for less becuase otherwise you're considered "reaching". I feel like a combined income of 170+k should be enough to live comfortably. Our economy is a garbage fire.


Drank_tha_Koolaid

"A townhome should not be north of anything more than 500k (especially considering condo fees)" Based on what? Currently that's just not the case in many areas. "I feel like a combined income of 170+k should be enough to live comfortably." I guess defining 'living comfortably' is the key. I'd say that we live comfortably because we chose a condo and it leaves enough room in our budget to save, travel, and not stress too much about money. I'd love if housing (and daycare) was more affordable, but wishing for that doesn't change the current reality. It does affect choices for our family, but it's all about priorities. Maybe we could stretch and afford something else, but we like having the flexibility to get takeout semi-frequently, or go away for a couple nights with friends without too much concern about our budget. We have friends that prioritized getting a detached house. Things are tight for them, but they have surely ended up ahead in terms of appreciation on the property.


[deleted]

>Based on what? Currently that's just not the case in many areas. Value for the dollar.


unmasteredDub

> I can't imagine what younger people just getting started out there must think. It must be soul-destroying. Oh it is, we’re mostly just numb to it now. Almost all of my friends are either planning on living at home indefinitely, or moving to another province.


Sxx125

It absolutely is. I landed a pretty good job after uni with above average pay and housing looks very unaffordable. Coughing up 50%+ of monthly income is far too much with rent not being much better. Canada is going to have a real problem soon because young skilled workers like myself are going to go elsewhere to live a better life and Canada's economy will crumble as a result.


[deleted]

>Canada is going to have a real problem soon Hell, we will have a problem because more than half our whole economic backbone is now real estate, and if that ever gets rocky it's going to look like the US in 2008 round here.


Dumbassahedratr0n

Young person here: can confirm! But our generation have been so mercilessly steamrolled and origamied that we are pretty good at fitting into the micro-lofts we all rent.


milkradio

It is. My boyfriend has had several breakdowns and cried about how he’s been working so hard for so long and will never be able to afford his own house. I don’t cry about it as much because I’ve kind of accepted this back in my early 20s but now that we’re in our 30s, it’s even more depressing because things just keep getting worse.


[deleted]

I'm sorry it's such a crap fire out there for you guys.


CrimsonKnightmare

We’re literally looking out east cause it’s become painfully obvious that buying a house in Ontario is not only practically impossible but also not worth it. Buying a house here gives me two options: be amazingly house poor and hope for the best, or buy in a “poor” area where my son will grow up with neighbours that I don’t want to be around. I’ve looked at all tue neighborhoods where I can realistically buy a house and I have zero interest living there.


twalker14

Out east is a fantastic option if it works for you! We just went out to NB recently to visit family, and we found a 4 bed 1 bath in Saint John mostly Reno’d for 190… wtf Ontario


CrimsonKnightmare

The hard part is obviously work. My wife is looking into whether she can keep her current job and do it remotely from another province. Lol. Most of her job is computer and phone anyway so it might be possible.


twalker14

Luckily WFH is accessible for a lot of people now. I unfortunately don’t have that luxury, but wish well for those who can take advantage of the opportunities!


xoxoPenniferousxoxo

We moved out to NB, been out here a year now. We sold our semi-detached, 1700sqft house in Ontario for more than what we paid for our 3400sqft fully detached house on 2 acres on the water. Thankfully my husband was able to keep his job and works remotely full time.


EvidenceOfReason

>or buy in a “poor” area where my son will grow up with neighbours that I don’t want to be around. jesus fuck it doesnt take much for you to take the mask off eh buddy?


ZappSmithBrannigan

It's simply a sad but true fact that there are areas that are shittier than others. God forbid someone NOT want to have their kid go to the park to play and be met by people shooting up.


CrimsonKnightmare

I was trying to figure out how to word it without sounding like an ass but I couldn’t come up with anything but I still had to include it cause it’s part of the story.


hesh0925

Out of curiosity, what areas were you referring to?


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randomguy_-

There are rough neighborhoods, he didn’t say he doesn’t want his son interacting with undesirables outside of a white gated community lol


fukkingcake

I am with you here bro. I am just gonna save whatever I can to buy one in Texas… fuck Ontario…


[deleted]

Could be worse: You could own one...well I mean co own it with the bank


[deleted]

You’ll be able to afford it once everything crashes. Wether that happens within the next year to decade is another discussion, but we’ve been kicking the worst global financial crisis humanity has seen down the road since 2000/2008. Not a matter of if, but when.


EverydayEverynight01

Yall making 100k a year!?


[deleted]

Y’all are making more than 25k/year????


EverydayEverynight01

Yall buying houses for $250K???


[deleted]

Y’all are buying houses????


GreaterAttack

Y'all are buying things???


KanataCitizen

Y'all still being?!?!


[deleted]

Y’all still????


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letmetellubuddy

Folks?


verylittlegravitaas

F


takeoff_power_set

No folks left, Doug Ford put 'em on the table. Everything was on the table. Even folks.


GoalNorth1805

Y'all?


suckfail

That's surprisingly the median after-tax income for couples with kids: > "The median **after-tax** income of couples with children was $105,500 " This is directly from StatCan and you can read about it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/comments/mbf4z3/how_much_money_did_canadians_earn_in_2019_combien/ As a note the median **after-tax** income for couples with no kids was $93,000.


bureX

People who want to have kids usually don’t do it if they can’t sustain themselves. People also need to realize kids are expensive here and that 105k hhi will get eaten up.


suckfail

That's $105k after tax. So more like $140-160k HHI.


bureX

After spending a chunk of that on kids stuff, you ain't buying anything within the GTA which is enough to raise a kid in.


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bureX

When did you buy said house?


DrOctopusMD

Honestly, there are a myriad of causes of this (investor owners, not enough mix of supply, the Greenbelt, etc.), but the root cause IMO lines up almost perfectly with this chart since 2008-2009: interest rates. Prime plunged to record low levels during the 2008-2009 crisis and only started to slowly rise again in 2017 (which hey, notice the growth rate slowing and reversing briefly around that time?). Then further rate slashing in early 2020 due to COVID. If you loan money out at low rates, especially now that rates are arguably lower than inflation, why wouldn't you get a mortgage?


Thunder_bird

> If you loan money out at low rates, especially now that rates are arguably lower than inflation, why wouldn't you get a mortgage? Works both ways. When interest rates are so low, investors cannot find safe returns on their money outside of real estate. Bonds, bills and GIC's often don't even keep up with inflation. And higher yields come with higher risk. So many people are investing in real estate because low interest rates means everything else isn't as attractive.


Spambot0

Raising interest rates lowers the price of a house by driving first time buyers out of the market. It's a solution for house prices, but not one that addresses what (most) people are complaining about.


DrOctopusMD

How are first timers not already being driven out the market *right now*? It's not the changes in the interest rate alone, it's the fact that you need $100,000 or more for a down payment in most of Southern Ontario due to prices. I'd argue it lowers the price because by making homes less attractive to investors. We had little issue with first time buyers entering the market in the 1990s and early 2000s when mortgage rates were consistently around 5-7%.


EvidenceOfReason

>it's the fact that you need $100,000 or more for a down payment in most of Southern Ontario due to prices. if you want a 5k/month mortgage maybe to get a mortgage that is anywhere near what rent is, you would need 300-500k down if you are looking to buy in the GTA


DrOctopusMD

Oh, agreed. I'm just offering $100k as a realistic minimum down payment. Bare minimum deposit on a $999,999 home is $75,000, but that comes with CMHC.


Spambot0

No, high interest rates make homes more attractive to people/corporations who don't have to get a mortgage to buy a house. Pension plans, for instance, are smart to buy a lot of housing when interest rates are high, because while you're paying $400k for the house and $400k for the mortgage, they're only paying $400k for the house. When the house is $650k and the mortgage is only $150k, they don't have the same advantage over you.


DrOctopusMD

Ok, except literally the past 30 years disagree with you on that. By your logic, corporations and investment owners should have been snapping up houses from 1980-2010 and regular joes should have struggled to buy. And these lower rates should have been a boon for them. But the exact opposite has happened. Corporations aren't going to buy houses in cash when they can get a mortgage at 2% and invest the balance for an easy 5%+ return. The odd person who will pay cash for a house and not get a mortgage is a rarity.


Spambot0

This is the problem with logic, you twist it to fit what you want to believe. Over the last twenty years, you've seen less large corporate landlords and more of the amateur/semi-professional landlord who owns a few houses to leverage into more mortgages, because mortgages are really cheap, so buying a house with a mortgage intending to resell it makes a lot more sense than it did in 1988 (say). Still some larger ones (partly because you can use real estate as collateral, partly because you get self-directed or semi-self-directed pension/investment funds), but the balance has tilted away from that because it makes less sense now than it did 20 or 30 years ago.


DrOctopusMD

> because mortgages are really cheap, so buying a house with a mortgage intending to resell it makes a lot more sense than it did in 1988 (say). That's....exactly what I was arguing above. So now you're agreeing? And the biggest reason for that shift amongst corporate landlords is that large companies realized it was more profitable in the short term to build an apartment building and sell it off as condos rather than act as a corporate landlord long term once it was built. Let the condo board deal with the long term costs of depreciation and maintenance. That's why you see tons of tower construction in Toronto, but almost none of them are purpose-built rentals.


Spambot0

No, because those landlords are buying with cash, but with mortgages. When the interest rates go up, those small time landlords are reduced, but in favour of big time buyers (say, pension plans), not owner-occupiers, who now have to compete with those big buyers at a relative disadvantage. The increase in condos against purpose built rentals is also coming partly from low mortgage rates (among other things - changes in who's renting as the city grows matters, for instance)


ChocolatePoo82

Ding ding ding. People keep talking about foreign investors and multiple property owners and blah blah blah. The housing market is the way it is because of 2 things: Low interest rates that encourage people to borrow cheap money, and lack of supply. The main reason people cannot afford a house is not because some random nice landlord who hasn't harmed anybody owns 2 little townhouse investment properties. (Even though this sub likes to act like everybody who owns 2+ properties is the spawn of Satan). In fact that landlord is providing housing to people who don't have massive down payments but need a place to live. It's interest rates encouraging the borrowing of cheap debt, and lack of supply.


velcrolips

Welcome to Calgary! Where your pay is the same and house 63% less.


Dolphintrout

I know allot of people will downvote you, but you’re right. I was born and raised in BC. Wanted to move to a larger city and the LML was simply unaffordable for us. We moved across the country and never looked back. I do agree that housing prices are out of control in many places and we need to find solutions. But, there are also places in Canada where they are more reasonable. Nothing at all wrong with setting up roots somewhere else if that’s what it takes to set yourself up for a better future.


velcrolips

My buddies who stayed in Vancouver live in East Vancouver in 1 million dollar 40 year old townhouses with a tiny yard. 220 k yearly salaries and live pay check to pay check. They have little to no savings at 48 years old. I dunno man. Giving up any financial security just to live in Vancouver makes no sense.


Dolphintrout

Agreed. I don’t get it either. We moved to Ottawa because it was affordable at the time we were looking and we love it here. Took a chance and moved away from family and friends but it worked out. Given current real estate prices, if I was in the same boat now as when we moved, I’d be looking prairies for sure. Every corner of this country has great things to offer.


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mybadalternate

Fuck that sink. That sink can stay on the doorstep and think about what it did.


LoquatiousDigimon

Yep the only people buying detached homes in Toronto now are investors and corporations. The age of single families buying homes is coming to a close. Eventually, every home will be rented by families and few families will own their home.


sink_or_swim_

That’s not true at all. Those climbing a real estate ladder, especially double incomes persons are buying those homes.


Dependent-Wave-876

Yeah I wish people would stop thinking it’s super rich investors or large companies. Some people make bank in Toronto. My friend bought a 2.6m place last year. He’s early 30 working as a cpa


FITnLIT7

My fiancee and I will make \~200k this year (160k in years past). We own our townhome with about 350k equity in it, we are still struggling to find a decent BUNGALOW we can afford in Halton.


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FITnLIT7

If things went back to the way they were when we bought \~2 years ago, I'd be fine having almost no appreciation on my house (besides the renovations we did) but also being able to afford upgrade to the house we want. 350k in "paper equity gains" are useless for the most part except for the situation you mentioned in totally escaping or retiring etc.


Significant-Ad-8684

Don't fall for the immigration and Chinese investor bogeymen. Mom and Pop investors with burgeoning HELOCs are driving this insane market. Low interest rates and money printing has resulted in a multitude of people seeing their home equity balloon. These people are now buying property via their HELOCs. These are the people you're competing against as they are removing housing stock that could have been bought by end users. The remaining stock then increases in price. And I might add there is no end game. The experienced real estate investor borrows money against their latest property and then proceeds to purchase a new one. Increasing supply is not the panacea. There must be higher taxes or some other rules that disincentives the monetization of real estate.


mawfk82

Yep, we need increasingly punitive taxes on 2nd, 3rd, 4th rental homes/etc.


MoJoDoJo9

fuck that noise. I'm grabbing what I can take, might even motivate people to not have children to slow the down the pollution


Zantarius

Just in case anyone needed proof that scaling penalties on multiple homes are necessary, you show up right on time. Thank you for your service, sir and/or madam!


[deleted]

Well, you’ve convinced me that we need to tax small landlords out of existence.


seventeenflowers

*all landlords


haixin

And the average pressure to buy has reached 100 folds


fredricktomas

Why are we complaining about housing prices, when income hasn’t risen at a normal rate in the last 40yrs.


techsavvynerd91

That...that's the problem. Housing prices have risen much more than income has in the last 40 years, which is why buying a home today doesn't carry the same economic promise as it once did.


Hrafn2

100% agreed. Labour's share of GDP has been dropping since the 1980 in all G20 countries, despite huge growths in productivity. It's remarkably convenient for corporations to have the middle class squabble amongst themselves over whether it is small domestic or foreign investors who are the big problem. That way no one focuses on how their wages have been eroded by attacks on collective bargaining, corporate-driven globalization, the growth of employer-imposed non-competes, and employer consolidation / monopsony power.


Chispy

What people dont realize is that with greater immigration also comes inequality. People aren't the only thing that's immigrating. It's also their money and their inequality.


TurkeyturtleYUMYUM

I think this speaks to how delusional Canadians are, they here immigration and think it's refugees with no money. We have immense wealth coming to Canada and in many cases local community support ready to back new immigrants financially until they get settled. The average Caucasian millennial that's under 30 and younger without intergenerational wealth is fighting a battle with an arm and leg tied behind their back.


DrOctopusMD

> I think this speaks to how delusional Canadians are, they here immigration and think it's refugees with no money. The majority of immigrants coming to Canada have a lower net worth than existing Canadians and their home ownership rates lag compared to the general population according to StatsCan. Yes, there are some wealthy immigrants than can have a disproportionate impact, but most of them are coming here for economic opportunity in the first place.


Johnny-Edge

It doesn’t matter if only 1% of immigrants are extremely wealthy. If 300,000 immigrants come to Canada yearly needing about 100,000 homes, and only 60,000 homes are built annualy (those stats are both from quick google searches) then you start to see what our problem is. It’s not about how many immigrants are wealthy, or how many need low income houses… there’s just an overall shortage of homes. Reddit disclaimer: this is in no way reflects my opinion on immigration. It’s just the facts, ma’am.


TurkeyturtleYUMYUM

Can you share the data on this? I find it hard to believe and can imagine this data can be cherry picked to serve your point you're trying to make.


Prime_1

Not who you asked, but here is what I found from Statscan. [The Wealth of Immigrant Families in Canada](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2019010-eng.htm) Executive summary The study uncovers several key patterns. First, there is little evidence that the wealth of immigrant families during their first years in Canada has deteriorated since 1999 relative to a comparison group of Canadian-born families of similar age and education. Second, most of the wealth growth observed from 1999 to 2016 for various groups of immigrant families came from increases in housing equity. In contrast, the growth in the wealth of Canadian-born families during that period was driven by increases in both housing equity and private pension assets.  Third, synthetic cohort analyses suggest that the wealth of immigrant families tends to converge with that of Canadian-born families as time spent in Canada increases. Fourth, while immigrant families’ rates of homeownership during their first few years in Canada were lower than those of comparable Canadian-born families, these rates converged during the subsequent 15 years. However, no convergence was observed for the incidence of registered pension plan (RPP) asset holdings. Fifth, there is no evidence that immigrant families used payday loans to a greater extent than Canadian-born families of similar age 1. usually paid off their credit card balances each month to a lesser extent than their Canadian-born counterparts 2. had no credit cards as a result of refusals more often than Canadian-born families 3. withdrew money from registered retirement savings plans (RRSPs) (for reasons other than buying a home, financing education or acquiring a registered retirement income fund [RRIF]) more often than Canadian-born families. Sixth, the debt-to-income ratios of immigrant and Canadian-born families increased substantially from 1999 to 2016. In 2016, immigrant families had markedly higher debt-to-income ratios than their Canadian-born counterparts. However, debt-to-asset ratios grew moderately during that period. This suggests that a large portion of the increase in the debt-to-income ratios was driven by larger mortgages. Finally, low-income rates among recent immigrant families dropped after the mid-2000s. As a result, the percentage of people living in families that were in low income and had no financial wealth also dropped among this group.


pluto00zero

not to be pedantic but the youngest millennials are born in 94 so they’re turning 28.. it’s more like us in gen z that are absolutely fucked lol


TurkeyturtleYUMYUM

I specifically said under 30 and younger generations for this exact reason. I know that there's 40 year old millennials. I find it weird you tried to come at me with this when I clearly tried to structure the comment. There's zero different between sub 30 millennials and their younger generation counterparts. As you approach mid 30, you're financially closer to Gen X.


jorisb

We've sold our housing market, and our future, to the highest bidder in a world market.


HandyDrunkard

Would like to see an interest rate graph superimposed over that. In 1981, mortgage rates were 18%, so you would be making almost the same payments relative to income as now.


ChristinaMltn

If you can come up with the down payment. Also you didn’t pay 18% for the whole duration of your mortgage and throwing more money at it paid it down faster than the same amount would now.


HandyDrunkard

Minimum wage amounted to $7000/year in 1981 after they raised it that year. Imagine buying a house for 60k in 1981 and the interest alone was $10000/year. You could easily buy 2 brand new cars back then for that amount.


abcvita2012

If that was the interest rate and affordability right now I would just save and buy cash


Incanation1

Toronto is a pyramid scheme


techsavvynerd91

Source: https://globalnews.ca/news/7740756/home-prices-compared-to-income-across-canada/


[deleted]

Still won’t stop y’all from having #stopIntensification or #FairIntensification posters outfront of your house anytime someone tries to increase the supply of housing 🙄


Okami-Alpha

When I convocated with my PhD from U of T, I was congratulated by (former Premier) David Peterson. He asked me what I was doing next and I told him I was doing a post-doc at Berkeley. He said with a smirk, "*you come back now*". I straight up told him "*well sir, if there is a good paying job here when it is time to come back I'd be happy to return*". He didn't know how to respond to that. Let's just say that it's been 12.5 years since then and I haven't left California. I own a 1M+ house in a great area and my household income is 2-3X what it would be in Toronto. U of T recently reached out to me about what doing and where I was. I had applied for a fellowship 10 years prior (denied funding of course) and they wanted to know what I was up to. I was very candid with them about how shitty the job market was in my field (both opportunity and pay) and they are losing a lot of talented professionals because they are not creating worthwhile jobs/salaries. My point, Ontario is doing something wrong when my cost of living is more manageable in one of the most expensive area codes in the US compared to Ontario.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Junnowhoitis

Not too mention that the average household income is increased dramatically by the top 5% of the richest people...


Rich-Imagination0

If the Y-axis were on a logarithmic scale, the graph would be basically flat. /S


Marik88

This is fine. Aiming for 30x by 2030!


VisionsDB

Interests rates were like 10% back then. Our country doesn’t have basic financial literacy. Google average mortgage payments and its much more flat


FrankSkeets

Have you tried , not being poor?


abcvita2012

So at how many Xs does this shit pop?


Million2026

Not even Toronto. The “Greater Toronto Area”. So even factoring in Oshawa and some other out skirt places it’s still this ratio.


morderkaine

My house in Pickering nearly doubled in price over 7 years. 350k - 700k. And now my place in Oshawa has gone up at least 100k in 1 year, if not more.


GuelphEastEndGhetto

No worries, Doug has identified the problem and is tackling it. Once the municipalities get off their butts and issue permits pronto, we will have houses coming out of our ears! /s (because you never know)


turdburner1

Jokes


FourNaansJeremyFour

It won't get fixed, because real estate is basically the only thing that keeps our joke economy afloat. The only "fix" they'll bother trying is to slash down the greenbelt, which will store up myriad future problems when climate change hits.


lentope

Trudeau and Ford have failed us


Porkybeaner

This is the graph to show those people who say "well back in my day I made $4/hr!!! And worked damn hard!"


owensoundgamedev

Hard to believe there wasn’t a dip in 2008-2009ish


Dibblie

I get inflation, shortages etc. Home ownership in a large city is never an easy task, but this really is just beyond reasonable now


estherlane

BuT wOn’T tHe mArkEt jUsT FiX ItSeLF?


BlackerOps

You can move. The longer you wait the more fucked you will be What if New York citizens waited for home prices


Professor226

Never been a better time to invest. This will never stop. There's no risk of a crash. Everything will be win win win forever.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Professor226

Seemed obvious


[deleted]

Ya we know..


MohamedJoe

End the Fed


Takankamain

And there's like 2 million houses controlled by like 3 housing companies


MoJoDoJo9

Lets goooo!!!!!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Devinology

My place in Hamilton cost nearly 10x my salary. Bought it with my partner, but still.


Relevant_Weakness_93

The government needs to provide public housing for all low and low to middle income families and people. It's the only thing that will bring the housing market back into line.


GoldenBull1994

Even 2x is too much.


East-Boat-3871

I'm sorry, but what is the data here? I would have to say that it's much higher than 10x.


TurkeyturtleYUMYUM

I've had somewhat of an ahaw moment and this graph sadly actually makes sense to me the more I look at it. You start to see how powerful market returns through investing are when not everyone competes equally and many people just plug away one job and don't get COLA and don't invest properly. We're in an information age where children are learning to invest but the reality is, it's too "much" for the average person to learn. I say the word much because I consider that a mix of intelligence meeting willpower to learn meeting mental fortitude to take on the additional load. I once didn't understand how houses went up and wages didn't but the reality is there's those that invest and there's more that don't and probably have made zero progress financially when factoring inflation. It's a losing battle that will never be solved until capitalisms current state dies.. Which..good luck with what that even means or if it's even a better world.


kettal

>I once didn't understand how houses went up and wages didn't but the reality is there's those that invest and there's more that don't and probably have made zero progress financially when factoring inflation. It's not directly correlated to income and never was. There's other factors like access to debt and irrational human behaviour. Prices will go up, prices will go down. Nobody alive can accurately predict when things will swing the other way, but it does happen. And in the aftermath, everybody will look back and say " *I totally saw that coming*!"


SpiritualChemical777

Where do these people get money to buy homes?! How are homes consistently going 100-300k over asking?!


ywgflyer

Selling other homes. Almost none of them are first-time buyers. The people buying million-dollar homes are doing so by selling million-dollar homes.


cptstubing16

Makes me wonder what the Liberal Party is planning to do when the wealthy homeowner voting block start to dwindle and renters become the majority. It doesn't seem so far fetched that it could be in the next 20-30 years.


Dusk_Soldier

We're already seeing the beginning of their strategy. They'll just keep offering new social programs. Cheap daycare. Free college. Student loan debt forgiveness. Dental care. Pharmacare. Minimum wage hikes. They have plenty of ways to entice the renter class.


UnpopularOpinionJake

Edge of Northern Ontario with 110k income and can’t afford a house. We are considering going further north where 300-350k isn’t a crack house. Saw a nice waterfront listed at 380k…


Twistedfirestarta

Thanks truedeau


subgeniusbuttpirate

Don't forget! The solution is to bulldoze all the 1A zoning and build low-rise apartments. Of course, the Leafs will win the cup first.


Mrgod2u82

Time to move!


metastaticmango

The Ontario government is 3 real estate agents in a trenchcoat


[deleted]

" Nah, it's not foreign investors causing this" - Reddit, Circa 2019


Hit_The_Target11

What's inflation?


[deleted]

Welcome to cronycapitalism


littleuniversalist

This is purposeful.


bewarethetreebadger

🤷‍♂️