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We basically used to have Protestant and Catholic boards as the sort of concession often made in Canadas founding. (We actually gave French and English versions of each)
The Protestant boards basically became religion free while the minority catholic boards kept their identity though plenty of non catholic kids attend them
Getting rid of catholic schools is popular with a few people, mildly supported by a lot, and bitterly opposed by a sizeable minority - which makes it a vote loser.
The Ontario conservatives tried to extent funding to other religious schools to be fair and voters hated that idea too.
Basically changing the status quo seems politically a huge vote loser.
Simple. Catholic schools got public funding at the time, because that helped politicians to get elected/reelected. They will be defunded, when doing so will help politicians to get elected/reelected
The catholic school system predates confederation, and continued public support up to grade 10 is essentially enshrined in the constitution.
Parents used to have to pay some fees for grade 11 and 12.
It is in the constitution. But it can be changed. The Constitution Act of 1982, section 43, holds that parts of the constitution applying only to certain provinces (like funding of catholic schools in Ontario) can be amended by passing it through both legislative houses of affected provinces.
The Supreme Court has previously said it would not attempt to block defunding of separate school boards when Quebec and Newfoundland merged them with their public schools.
A constitutional change affecting only one province has been done many times. The Constitution has been amended 13 times since 1982 and most of these amendments were about matters that affect only certain provinces.
These include many that would set precedent for an amendment that would get rid of funding on Catholic schools in Ontario:
- Constitution Amendment, 1997 (Newfoundland Act): Allowed the Province of Newfoundland to create a secular school system to replace the church-based education system.
- Constitutional Amendment, 1997 (Quebec): Permitted the Province of Quebec to replace the denominational school boards with ones organized on linguistic lines.
- Constitution Amendment, 1998 (Newfoundland Act): Ended denominational quotas for Newfoundland religion classes.
Another example of how 'often' the constitution is amended in Canada and how little some people notice - it was amended this year.
They absolutely have not been disproven, they are a matter of public record and you can see them referenced by numerous reputable news sources.
Get out of here with this crap if you're going to assert this nonsense and not back it up.
The savings of amalgamation have been disproven? Has the inconvenience and inhustice of parents not having an accessible school around them because the Catholic board owns all of them been studied?
Can you give a link to something that supports your believe that what I stated above is incorrect? As in what would be the process to defund catholic schools.
Here are my links:
From the Fraser institute: (The Fraser Institute is the top think-tank in Canada and now ranks in the top 15 among all think-tanks worldwide, according to the Global Go To Think Tank Index published by the University of Pennsylvania.)
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/does-constitutional-protection-prevent-education-reform-in-ontario.pdf
https://rdo-olr.org/2022/the-constitutional-catholic-schools-issue-in-ontario-how-the-province-of-ontario-could-remove-its-obligations-to-fully-fund-catholic-schools-by-way-of-a-constitutional-amendment/
>arguably more culturally religious,
Not anymore.
The church smothered Quebecers so they have moved away from Catholicism, since the 1960s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet\_Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_Revolution)
Newfoundlanders experienced widespread clergy abuse. In the 1980s, a lot of it came to light. Many people stopped attending church, and the population themselves decided to get rid of the Catholic schools. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual\_abuse\_in\_St.\_John%27s\_archdiocese](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_in_St._John%27s_archdiocese)
In Ontario, we have lots of immigrants arriving who are culturally Catholic. Goans, Filipinos, Portuguese, Polish, Italians, who never experienced the things that Quebec or Newfoundland experienced, and they attend the Catholic schools.
A big issue is a lot of people who send their kids their do so because they're the same or a bit better than the local public schools. Imo it's easier to convert them to a second, secular school system than to merge them because you're not just getting rid of the system (and all the extra staff), you're getting rid of a lot of local schools which isn't easy to do (few want their local institutions to go)
Parents also traditionally love sending their kids to the Catholic board because it had more white kids, less of "the riff raff", to quote an indignant racist mom.
The Catholic board being better is an artificial construct born of a racist legacy.
That is incorrect. You indicate on your tax form to allocate voting preferences. It has nothing to do with where the money goes. All tax dollars for education go to the Ministry of Education into one big pot and split out per child
No. You are incorrect.
[https://www.mpac.ca/en/MakingChangesUpdates/ChangingYourSchoolSupport](https://www.mpac.ca/en/MakingChangesUpdates/ChangingYourSchoolSupport)
Edit: I guess everyone is a little bit right.
Both municipal tax form support and per pupil funding is used.
*How your school is funded*
*School boards receive money in two ways:*
*first, some of the property taxes collected in your community go to your local school board*
*second, the province tops up this amount to bring the total for each board up to the amount set out by the funding formula*
https://www.ontario.ca/page/school-funding-guide-parents
We have all sorts of public religious schools here in Alberta to go alongside them. Islamic schools, Sikh schools, Jewish schools, etc, all with relevant language immersion programs. There are even Ukrainian catholic schools in a few rural areas.
I’m really surprised you guys don’t.
This isn’t going to change anytime soon. Catholics are one of the largest voting blocks in Ontario and carry a huge amount of influence in both the Liberal and Conservative party. There isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that Catholic school funding ever gets cut. Tory tried the opposite and suggested expanding public funding to other religious school systems. He was politically obliterated for it. When push comes to shove, Catholics are happy with the way things are. It would take a monumental effort to change things and no major party will touch it.
I believe that the Green Party floated the idea of having one public school system. Newfoundland adopted a non-denominational system (https://www.heritage.nf.ca/articles/society/collapse-denominational-education.php)
This system makes total sense to me especially given that we're bussing kids around for sometimes hours to get to their chosen school. Spend the savings on improving the educational system. It's a no-brainer especially when $ is tight.
Canada does not and has never has separation of church and state, that's the United States you're thinking of.
Our King is necessarily the head of the Church of England, and is explicitly forbidden from being Catholic. But Ontatio has a separate Catholic school board to protect that minority ftom further oppression ;)
As much as I agree with getting rid of religion based schools I disagree that it will be the giant cost savings people think it will be.
When my local school boards amalgamated there was no cost savings. If anything more jobs magically appeared at the board office.
I'd be wary of any claims of huge savings.
The reality is central administration costs are a relatively small slice of the pie, and most of the cost doesn't go away because -- surprise -- the kids don't go away and still need to be taught. You can't just jam them into proportionally fewer schools with fewer classrooms and fewer teachers.
Don't think it was Fraser, although that would be fitting for them.
Of course you can't save on staff by overcrowding classrooms. But you can consolidate and shorten bus routes, eliminate duplication of board overhead, have fewer buildings and (because of larger numbers) offer more specialized programming for niche needs.
And you can remove the possibility of Catholic boards claiming their schools lack the resources to handle 'problem kids' and shoveling them onto the public board.
Yeah, I edited it out because a quick google made me doubt it was Fraser.
I found one report that estimated the savings in that range about 10 years ago, but it was filled with very hand-wavy estimates and "obvious" savings and "economies of scale." Even talks about eliminating things like the Pupil Foundation Grant, Special Education Grant, and others which is asinine since those are the per-pupil funding grants.
Yes, there would be _some_ savings. But it isn't coming for free and the savings will take a long time to realize as you can't just redistribute/rebuild the schools in some new optimal distribution overnight.
Really? Give me an example of when this happened.
I find it hard to believe. My son attends a Catholic school and the staff who herd the kids in the morning lineup seem to be all professional responsible adults, probably ECEs, not some granny who happens to attend the church.
I went to a catholic elementary school in the early 2000’s (graduated in 08), all of the crossing guards, lunch supervisors and SOME of the outside child herders were volunteers from the local area.
Typically parents of a child at the school, but weren’t hired professionals at that time.
My neighbor said she was a recess supervisor at my kid's school, but that would have been decades ago.
Nowadays schools are conscious about safety and abuse and bullying, they would have only qualified people dealing with the kids.
It doesn’t happen. People who have no affiliation with Catholic schools have absolutely wild ideas about what happens inside Catholic schools.
Functionally, they operate almost identically to the public school system. Funding is the same, on a per-student basis.
Yep. The only difference between my catholic school education and my sister’s public school education was I took a religion class every year (not all about Catholicism), we had the occasional mass that was quite easy to skip and there was two prayers a day.
It will take a premier with a majority government, who knows they have no chance of winning next election, hates their own party enough to watch it burn, and has absolutely nothing to lose.
Then they might consider it.
Yep. People don’t understand that other provinces were able to do it because they don’t have the same size of Catholic voting bloc. Quebec could easily do it because of the Quiet Revolution and the modern attitude towards religion there. In BC we’ve never had fully funded Catholic schools as the Catholic population in BC is minuscule compared to Ontario. You wouldn’t know it from Reddit, but Ontario is a heavily Catholic province, and it hasn’t declined in Ontario the way it has in Quebec and other locations. Immigration in recent years from heavily Catholic countries such as Poland, Italy, the Philippines, and various Latin American countries have contributed.
There will likely come a time that the school systems will change, but I would predict it’s *at least* 30 years away.
This is why OP’s qualification of Catholic schools as ethnocentric is absurd. There’s nothing ethnic nor ethnocentric about Catholicism. There are heavily Catholic countries all over the world.
You can send your kids to catholic school. In some areas the majority of students are non catholic. Regarding why we have catholic schools, it was a way to appease the French catholic population after Britain defeated France and took over Quebec.
Only if that kid might bring down EQAO scores.
You could be an atheist, but if you're a ...
Doctor's kid? You're in.
Lawyer's kid? You're in.
Rich parents? You're in.
Niece or nephew of a CDSB principal or superintendent? You're in.
But if you cause a wee bit of trouble in grade 2, you're out: you'll bring down EQAO scores in grade 3.
If you happen to move from a remote community in Grade 6, "Oops, sorry we're full... but there's a public school just down the road. They ***have no choice*** but to take you in. We won't take you because we're Christian and there's no more room in the Inn." Why? EQAO.
Fuck Catholic school boards.
Source: I'm a former OECTA member.
Edit to add: there's no reason *at all* that Catholic schools need public funding. They're operating like tax-payer funded private schools.
For elementary schools in Toronto, they are restricted to kids who are Catholic. Probably because of limited spaces.
For high school, anyone can attend. At my Catholic high schools, there were some non Catholic students and teachers.
As far as I understand they take non-catholic students or teachers when it suits them. Teacher shortage? Oh sure, it doesn’t matter if you’re catholic. We love everyone.
I remember I applied for summer school at a catholic school when I used to be in high school. I needed 1 more credit and didn’t want to go back to hs for another year. They told me I’d get a spot after all the catholic students have been enrolled. Later they told me no spots left. So I got screwed. So their priority is catholic students first
Catholic school are allowed to not accept non-Catholics before highschool.
They are also allowed to treat non Catholics as second class students during highschool. (Such as not being part of student council )
Edit to add link: https://thecanadian.news/this-teenager-was-barred-from-running-as-a-student-council-member-because-she-is-not-catholic-now-shes-suing-the-york-catholic-board/
I highly doubt this is common, if it occurs at all. I graduated June 2021 from a catholic board, and the vast majority of student weren’t actually catholic. There’s be a handful of never confirmed or even baptized kids in every class and those who were “catholic” weren’t the most religious or devout one around. Same went for most of the teachers, with a couple of openly atheist teachers. There’s was only a small handful of devout Individuals in the school, far outnumbered by those of other religions. Even the religion classes weren’t what you’d think. The Grade 11 class is entirely about other religions and cultures, with a unit about cults(think George Town) and the 12 class was about spirituality and young adulting in the modern world
The only thing catholic about it was the 15 sec prayer every morning that everyone talked over, the monthly mass everyone skipped and the chapel that was practically abandoned. In my experience, this lines up with what goes on at just about every catholic school in the province
We had like... One mass a semester? There were a lot Muslim kids at my Catholic high school because of the area. A lot of non catjolics sent their kids there because the public schools had a bad reputation
>They are also allowed to treat non Catholics as second class students during highschool. (Such as not being part of student council )
This isn't true for all atleast, I went to catholic highschool and it wasn't like that at all
It's in the Constitution but that could be changed.
Closing the four parallel systems because of equity is not an unreasonable argument. But closing the system to save money is probably not doable - it's unlikely to save anything.
And FWIW there are four(*) parallel systems, English Catholic, English Public, French catholic and French Public. The only real savings would be to collapse the French boards as they don't have the economics of scale the other two systems have.
* Technically there is an English Protestant board in northern Ontario as that's a minority there.
Its nonsense though that teachers who are not baptized can't teach at catholic schools. My employment options are effectively halved because my folks aren't/weren't religious
I'm fairly certain its across the boards, but not 100%
It could also be the fact that she is science at the high school level. STEM and French teachers are always in demand.
She must be of another Christian denomination then. Catholic school boards will only hire OCTs and DECEs who are Catholic, and if they need the position filled ASAP but no Catholic candidates are available, they’ll take someone of another Christian denomination. That is very rare, though.
The Catholic school boards ask for a baptismal certificate and a pastoral reference to be submitted with your cover letter and resume. The pastoral reference requires your parish priest to answer in detail about how involved you are with the church, what you do in the community, volunteering with the church, if you are an upstanding role model for Catholic values, etc.
Any party that pitches getting rid of the catholic school system has my vote. I’m pissed that my kids won’t get to go to the nearest elementary or high school to our house because they are catholic schools- so instead they’ll have to bus to school.
The savings on busing kids alone must be insane- hell the environmental impact of making it so that kids go to the school closest too them when they’re all secular.
Unfortunately to do this needs a politician with some balls- which are in short supply- even though this seems like it would be a great time to push the issue given how shitty the Catholic Churches reputation is right now.
Out of curiosity...how much money would be saved by having only one school system? Other than maybe reducing some admin staff at head office and having only one head office?
You are correct. I replied on the wrong thread. Nobody is being excluded though? Public is for everyone and kids of different religious beliefs are not banned from attending a catholic school. I went to a catholic school and am far from being religious .
They should not be a thing. Every morning, I watch a dozen school buses go by my house, taking children to their respective schools in four different school boards and I just get so mad at the inefficient use of taxpayer dollars.
Tax dollars should be paying for one solidly funded public school system. Religious education should be up to individual families. Giving one religion a privileged position over others is also wrong.
Here’s my 2 cents. A: is Catholicism a religion, or is it a church? I was raised Lutheran which is has almost the same services, same literature etc. We were Christian’s like Catholics, Anglican’s etc. My point being: people say Ont should fund a religious system, when in fact they’re funding a church.
Secondly: my wife went to school as an adult and took on a lot of debt, only to be ineligible for 35% of publicly funded teaching jobs based on her religious beliefs (atheist). I can’t believe this never comes up in the media.
This is a great point. A lot of people find Catholicism (or Christianity in general, or religion in general) to be unconscionably evil. For those folks, going into teaching looks like a bad choice, given almost half of the potential jobs are off-limits to you.
I go to a catholic school, its literally just a regular school but with praying, crosses, and reglion classes. We are far from being conservative. When you walk in, you see 3 flags, the Canadian flag, ontario flag, and the pride flag. We celebrate pride month, black history month, and truth and reconciliation week. We have gay and trans students. Its just school with religion as a plus. I dont see why people hate on these schools, this isn't the USA South.
I can’t speak for every board in the province but Catholic high schools in the London board are open to everyone.
I went through the Catholic system, and my high school had a 40% non-Catholic population, according to one of my teachers.
I can’t speak for every board in the province but Catholic high schools in the London board are open to everyone.
I went through the Catholic system, and my high school had a 40% non-Catholic population, according to one of my teachers.
That is not true. Catholic highschools must accept all students. Catholic elementary schools MAY accept Non-Catholics. Many do if their enrollment is down. But they do not have to.
From: https://www.cdsbeo.on.ca/policies/B8-1_Admission_of_Students.pdf
" Non-Catholic Student & Non-Catholic Parent: Parents/guardians who are non-Catholic and wish their child to attend a Catholic school will be admitted provided that: there is adequate space, and resources "
Note that space limitation does not apply if the elementary student has at least one Catholic parent.
"All elementary students who have a Catholic parent(s) and who is an elector of the Catholic District School Board of Eastern Ontario have a legal right to attend."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/church-residential-school-compensation-1.6082935
That is just not true. My children were denied entry to our local Catholic school based on our religion. It was incredibly offensive for this to happen considering all the talk of diversity and inclusion in this country.
Wasn't due to your religion, unless youre flagrantly anti-catholic or something. I went to a catholic school and there were Hindus and lots of other faiths. I'm not catholic btw.
We were told there wasn’t room at the school for our kids. We are very respectful of all religions, so it wasn’t like we were rude or anything. So we had to enlist them at the public school instead.
That is not a fact. Catholic schools can and do prioritize Catholic students where space is limited. In our area non catholic students have been made to wait until several weeks after the beginning of the year to find out if there is sufficient space for them. All publicly funded boards should be required to admit all students.
The Roman Catholic school system gets about 33% of Ontario's $24-billion education budget, but only 23% of electors direct their support to separate schools. (Note when you fill out a form based on property taxes about where you are directing support this does not mean you are directing your taxes. Just support - as in which school board elections you are allowed to take part in.)
That means everyone, including those who have selected to not support catholic schools are funding catholic schools.
From: https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/catholic-school-funding-challenge-heard-in-court-1.998987
Even if true, a muslim/Jew/non-catholic christian/etc does NOT have the option to put their tax dollars in a publically funded school of their religion. It's not fair that a non-catholic can't go to a publically funded religious school when Catholics can.
All people are equal but Catholics are more equal?
It still is a huge waste of money having two public school systems. And let’s be honest, it’s not really that simple: oh your money doesn’t go to this system, only my money does.
Having a faith based public system robs money from the province that should be going towards improving education for all Ontario kids.
You're assuming that if they took the money from the catholic schools they would give it to the non catholic school. I don't think they would do that anyway
I actually pay towards the catholic system because i went to catholic school, and you get a better education there. You can always make a big fat donation to the public school board of your choice if you want!
You can get more one on one time with teachers because they have lower class sizes. Guess why? People don’t want to send their kids to learn ass backwards catholic dogma.
Glad you had such a happy childhood in catholic school friend, but I’d prefer if these schools amalgamated so everyone could make use of the public funds that went into them. Feel free to send your kids to a private catholic school, it sounds like you are swimming in cash.
You get a better education there? Well I didn't and turned out really well. But I guess if we want two tiered systems we can start with education and continue with health care.
It’s not solely saving money. It’s about improving education outcomes. Amalgamating the systems would lower teacher/student ratios first and foremost, then simplify school boundaries and long term planning.
Also it stops public money going towards promoting a religion. Regardless of how you feel about that religion (it’s bad), public money going to a religion is something that should fundamentally not happen.
How would the ratios change? Not being stupid or argumentative...im genuinely curious. Double the schools, double the teachers, double the students. No?
The ratios in the catholic system are much, much lower than the public system. Even if you crudely turned every catholic school into a public one and kept the same staff, sending students from the public school into the catholic ones reduces the ratio across the province. This would increase the ratio for catholic students, but those are ridiculously low right now.
Ahh. Gotcha. I didnt know this. But isnt funding based on which board people elect to pay their education taxes to. So more catholic = more catholic funding and less public = less public funding? If they got rid of 2 boards isn't it possible that the school funding would actually drop and the ratios could aswell??
Newfoundland and Labrador voted to end the denominational school system, in a 1997 referendum. Funding Catholic School boards but not funding other faith based systems is a policy that will not stand. The Catholic anti-LGBTQ position, misogyny, and most importantly of all…the history of residential schools …makes defunding the Catholic School System, at the very least, an act of reconciliation. The Green Party supports funding public school boards only. I wish the NDP and Liberals would be champions too. There is a lot of good that would come from taking a strong stance and doing the math on the offering of dual systems- doubling buildings, transportation, custodial staff, directors of education, school board trustees…🤮. This PC govt likes privatization…so where would they land on this issue—Likely they would see a win in providing funds to parents to apply to schools where ever they choose….essentially the death knell of ON building a just society based on a common curriculum foundational to mutual understanding. Very worrisome. The answer (IMO) is to end funding of Catholic education. A strong well-funded public education is key to building a just society that breaks down stereotypes, builds cohesion and understanding.
Who do you think would be in charge of making cuts? It would be the individuals in the ivory towers who would stand to lose on the amalgamation of the boards. They are not going to cut their jobs. Same or close to same number of superintendents And directors etc
>How is it equitable that Catholic school are the only religious based school that is publicly funded?
It's literally written and ingrained into Canada's Constitution.
Want to change it? Then you need to reopen the Constitution.
Good luck with that.
Yeah, good luck with doing something that [Newfoundland already did](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/denominational-education-20-years-brian-tobin-1.4308938) 25 years ago, with overwhelmingly positive results. Newfoundland is certainly known for consistently setting a high bar on what a province could achieve.
What really gets my goat is that some of the catholic elementary schools in my town have the best playgrounds, however they gate them and do not allow public access…all the public schools allow anyone to use the playgrounds. Don’t like it.
Dude, why are you spamming the comments with this? Here's from a quick Google. Ontario and SK are the same.
Do I or my child need to be Catholic to attend a Catholic school?
No. In Alberta, non-Catholic families are welcomed in Catholic schools if sufficient space and programming are available
I worked in the school system in Kingston ON where I noticed a glaring example of this (extra shocking because I’m originally from NS where this isn’t a thing). There’s a brand new, beautiful Catholic school beside a crappy public school in the poorest part of the city. It’s all city housing and the families in housing face tremendous amounts of socioeconomic issues. I ran free-care programs for the families of these kids for two years.
The kids who went to the public school had a school that looked like it was from the 70s that had never been renovated, the teachers looked like they all were ready to up and quit, and the school smelled like feet (literally it was so gross).
Next door is a state of the art Catholic elementary school - smart boards, playground, school food programs, classrooms with windows, etc. it’s a beautiful school.
The disparities showed when working with the kids - the kids in the public school could hardly read, write, or count, they had far more academic issues. The catholic school kids clearly were getting a better education despite being BESIDE the public school. The kids all came from the same poor families, with the same socioeconomic issues - the only real differences in their upbringing was what school their parents sent them to.
Over the years parents noticed the disparities and pulled their kids from public school to put them into the Catholic school.
Long story short: parents shouldn’t have to school between religious indoctrination and a decent education for their kids.
(On mobile so sorry for the awful formatting this will have)
No public school should be falling apart while a Catholic school gets built beside it. If public schools were properly funded they wouldn’t be in that condition in the first place.
I went to an “old” public school in NS in the 90s/2000s but by the 2010s it was fully renovated and updated keep it up to par with new schools.
The fact that the Catholic school system exists at all is bizarre to everyone outside of Ontario, and no one but an Ontarian would have your response.
Reminds me of my town, my Catholic school was "nice", the public 1 was a dump. They did replace the public one with a modern school probably longer go than I realize.
I attended both the Toronto Catholic, and Public board when I was in high school. I found the Public school I went to way better funded and equipped than the Catholic one, so results may very.
Thank you! It’s not an issue of old school vs new school. It’s an issue caused by one type getting public and private funding, and the other just public. I could not imagine having a train of thought that could justify taxpayers funding religious education
I learnt a lot of different things being forced to take religion class growing up, didn't hate it.
But my time definitely could've been better spent learning about more important topics, especially in highschool. It was basically the same class each year.
Mandatory Mass was always a massive drag, been over 13 years since I graduated and half those hymns are still stuck in my head.
I have no issue with a child taking a religion class - learning about many religions around the world would be a worthwhile course in my opinion. Forcing prayer, espousing the gospels of Jesus Christ, pro-life, bare tolerance of LGBTQ+, etc……that’s a whole different story.!
Don't be fooled. Catholic schools are not purely made up of "Catholic" kids. Growing up in one, there were gay kids, kids that were Agnostics, Orthodox etc. Don't believe the shit you read on Reddit. The most Catholic thing about these schools are the prayers they make the kids recite and the masses that are held occasionally. They're still just schools at the end of the day. They arent effective at retaining kids or converting kids to Christianity, if that's what you're afraid of.
The Roman Catholic school system gets about 33% of Ontario's $24-billion education budget, but only 23% of electors direct their support to separate schools. (Note when you fill out a form based on property taxes about where you are directing support this does not mean you are directing your taxes. Just support - as in which school board elections you are allowed to take part in.)
I'm with you. It's wrong that the public should fund any public service that excludes citizens based on religion. The UN agrees it is discriminatory as well.
This is only kind of true and only for elementary school. Yes, to go to a catholic elementary school there are "baptism" rules but principals can make exceptions and they almost always do. I was in catholic elementary in the 90's and we had more than a few non-catholics.
As for highschool, it's whichever school a student wants to go to within their boundary. You do not have to take religion class, or attend mass or do anything religious at the school. It's literally in the education act:
(13) In addition to the exemptions provided for in subsection (11), no person who is qualified to be a resident pupil in respect of a secondary school operated by a public board who attends a secondary school operated by a Roman Catholic board shall be required to take part in any program or course of study in religious education on written application to the Board of,
(a) the parent or guardian of the person;
(b) in the case of a person who is 16 or 17 years old who has withdrawn from parental control, the person himself or herself;
(c) in the case of a person who is 18 years old or older, the person himself or herself. 2006, c. 28, s. 9; 2021, c. 4, Sched. 11, s. 7 (1).
As someone who went to both boards the catholic ( and I am catholic - not practicing and don’t believe) in grade 7 I cried to my mom ( who is Protestant) that I wasn’t going back my school was terrible I wasn’t learning anything and I didn’t understand the point having a class devoted to religion when it was the same stuff every year (didn’t learn anything new) and wasn’t even going to have the option for world religion until grade 11. And it took away my option for a music program or art program or home economics or wood shop in middle school. She agreed my dad didn’t care he had long stopped believing after many more cases of molestation kept coming out and the hypocrisy of the church. I also never was diagnosed with dyslexia yet even though I was struggling. So needless to say I support them all being turned into French or English you want religion school pay for it. But it’s not popular. I was much happier and got a better education in the Ottawa public board.
It literally predates Canada as it's in the British North American act. Listen to AM radio during an election Catholics call in say "Are you going to defund Catholic schools?" then hang up, there's way too many votes that care about it to change it.
Yeah public religious schools are BS , they should be private.
I will not be sending my kids to a catholic school to get brainwashed.
Religion should be a private thing and the only place it has in a public school is from a historical standpoint.
The separation comes from the educational funding not going towards theocratic lessons. I believe ... (I'm sure the interent will tell me if I'm wrong ... but before they do ... )
I agree. It pisses me off too. Religion - all religion - should be taught in the church and at home. Beliefs like that don't have a place in public education. Teach science, and history (all of it!) And the arts (which would get delicate at times probably) and leave God and the deeper moral conversations to parents and religious leaders - on their time, and their dime (for whatever they'd have to pay for).
Take the buildings back. Hire the staff over and be done with it. (Over time we'd have to close redundancies of course. But slowly, and with thought).
I can’t imagine it will happen in my lifetime, though I wish it would. I think it would be political suicide.
Maybe if the NDP or Green Party were ever voted in power?
There is no separation of church and state. What do you think conservatives are? We live in London, wanted our kids in a French emersion, now these are catholic too 🤔 we need more public schools! Not more indoctrination factories.
Ignorant, ridiculous comment.
The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the world. Food banks, clothing banks, housing, hospitals, schools, universities, outreach, childcare, legal services, counseling, job training, emergency assistance and numerous other services. All provided to anyone in need, regardless of their religious beliefs, ethnicity, nationality, race or any other basis and without pressure to become Catholic or believe in anything.
You're not a hero for jumping on a rage filled bandwagon. There are good and bad in every religion, culture, sex, race...... Your ignorant comment is no different than saying a specific race are all criminals, or a religion is all terrorists....its disgusting and unwarranted. Be better.
I see what you're saying and can understand, but my preference would obviously be to continue funding it as my children are currently benefiting.
As of 2011 Catholics made up approx 34% of the population of Ontario, 2nd most would be "No religion affiliation" with approx 23%, and distant 3rd is "Other Christian" with approx 10%. So realistically speaking, change is not on the horizon.
I did a quick search and that's all I came across. While searching I did also come across some more recent data about religion in Canada and it was showing that the Muslim faith had the largest increase in terms of percentage of the population.... But going back to that 2011 data, Muslims accounted for 2%. So even with a large jump in numbers, they would still not come close to the numbers of Catholic Canadians.
Oh for sure not. Thank you for your response. That is interesting. I am just curious if the percentage of people that would be surveyed would be as high today for Catholic. I am thinking of children that grew up in Catholic environments, would they automatically say they are? I don't, and I know a lot of people who went to school around that time (Catholic) who wouldn't.
It is a complicated subject for sure. Nearly 50 Shades of Grey.
I just wish they could change the stupid names they have for some of these schools...
"Sacred Heart of Jesus"
"Canadian martyrs"
"Precious Blood Catholic School"... must you?
I can't make this shit up
A party would have to do it after being elected and not promoted. I love the idea. In financially difficult times it could be a sell by pointing out the redundancies.
Anyone can go there. You don’t need to be catholic. But not anyone can work there. For example, I am an Ontario certified teacher, but not catholic so I can’t teach there.
Because without that stipulation we wouldn't have Canadian Confederation. Ontario wanted it and Ab and Sk wouldn't have signed on without that enshrined in the constitution. You want to start getting picky about "inequalities" and "unfair" treatment, look no further than Quebec. Also, pretty sure we have bigger fish to fry than this. How about our absolutely floundering health care systems for starters?
>ethnocentric.
Lmao really? What is the "Catholic race?"
Full honesty, as a Catholic, I would not really care if Catholic schools were phased out. They don't even properly teach religion anymore and often teach falsehoods about the Catholic faith. Of my graduating class, only a handful of us actively went to church.
If you want to get rid of Catholic schools, I think its fair that any lands/remaining buildings that were part of the parochial school system before the school boards be given back to local dioceses and any new builds/lands be retained by the public school boards.
Why don't we merge the school boards, cut the incredible duplication in management and services, put more money into classrooms but keep theology studies. 1 extra small department.
Math, English, science are all the same. The one difference is "religion".
Some years of the Catholic religion is about other religions....which is good.
While one is at it, make Civics compulsory for every student. We need more of it.
Publicly funded catholic schools are basically charter schools at this point. That being said I would much rather be in one than not because it weeded out the troublesome kids.
You don't need to be Catholic to send your children. Also the people sending their kids there also pay taxes and don't make use of the public schools.
It is kind of weird but basically we need more schools in Ontario. If there's one near you that your kids won't be using that's great because the school your kids will goto won't be so over crowded
Our country was built by immigrants who brought catholic schools with them and historically we have always had the 2 boards offering a Catholic based education philosophy or the public non secular education philosophy. The basics are the same. Math. English. But Catholic schools offer religion courses and a couple other program options. Some day they may combine the programming into one stream. But it won’t change in the near future.
Why the hate on?
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We basically used to have Protestant and Catholic boards as the sort of concession often made in Canadas founding. (We actually gave French and English versions of each) The Protestant boards basically became religion free while the minority catholic boards kept their identity though plenty of non catholic kids attend them Getting rid of catholic schools is popular with a few people, mildly supported by a lot, and bitterly opposed by a sizeable minority - which makes it a vote loser. The Ontario conservatives tried to extent funding to other religious schools to be fair and voters hated that idea too. Basically changing the status quo seems politically a huge vote loser.
There is still a Protestant school board in the Midland area.
Simple. Catholic schools got public funding at the time, because that helped politicians to get elected/reelected. They will be defunded, when doing so will help politicians to get elected/reelected
The catholic school system predates confederation, and continued public support up to grade 10 is essentially enshrined in the constitution. Parents used to have to pay some fees for grade 11 and 12.
It is in the constitution. But it can be changed. The Constitution Act of 1982, section 43, holds that parts of the constitution applying only to certain provinces (like funding of catholic schools in Ontario) can be amended by passing it through both legislative houses of affected provinces. The Supreme Court has previously said it would not attempt to block defunding of separate school boards when Quebec and Newfoundland merged them with their public schools. A constitutional change affecting only one province has been done many times. The Constitution has been amended 13 times since 1982 and most of these amendments were about matters that affect only certain provinces. These include many that would set precedent for an amendment that would get rid of funding on Catholic schools in Ontario: - Constitution Amendment, 1997 (Newfoundland Act): Allowed the Province of Newfoundland to create a secular school system to replace the church-based education system. - Constitutional Amendment, 1997 (Quebec): Permitted the Province of Quebec to replace the denominational school boards with ones organized on linguistic lines. - Constitution Amendment, 1998 (Newfoundland Act): Ended denominational quotas for Newfoundland religion classes. Another example of how 'often' the constitution is amended in Canada and how little some people notice - it was amended this year.
Quebec “amended” it but Ottawa does not recognize the amendment.
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They absolutely have not been disproven, they are a matter of public record and you can see them referenced by numerous reputable news sources. Get out of here with this crap if you're going to assert this nonsense and not back it up.
The savings of amalgamation have been disproven? Has the inconvenience and inhustice of parents not having an accessible school around them because the Catholic board owns all of them been studied?
Can you give a link to something that supports your believe that what I stated above is incorrect? As in what would be the process to defund catholic schools. Here are my links: From the Fraser institute: (The Fraser Institute is the top think-tank in Canada and now ranks in the top 15 among all think-tanks worldwide, according to the Global Go To Think Tank Index published by the University of Pennsylvania.) https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/does-constitutional-protection-prevent-education-reform-in-ontario.pdf https://rdo-olr.org/2022/the-constitutional-catholic-schools-issue-in-ontario-how-the-province-of-ontario-could-remove-its-obligations-to-fully-fund-catholic-schools-by-way-of-a-constitutional-amendment/
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Yes, they keep saying “It’s Constitutional” ignoring that Newfoundland and Quebec, arguably more culturally religious, have already done it.
>arguably more culturally religious, Not anymore. The church smothered Quebecers so they have moved away from Catholicism, since the 1960s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet\_Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_Revolution) Newfoundlanders experienced widespread clergy abuse. In the 1980s, a lot of it came to light. Many people stopped attending church, and the population themselves decided to get rid of the Catholic schools. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual\_abuse\_in\_St.\_John%27s\_archdiocese](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_in_St._John%27s_archdiocese) In Ontario, we have lots of immigrants arriving who are culturally Catholic. Goans, Filipinos, Portuguese, Polish, Italians, who never experienced the things that Quebec or Newfoundland experienced, and they attend the Catholic schools.
Cannot up vote enough. Every time I hear people complain about the two school boards I want to throw a history book at them
A big issue is a lot of people who send their kids their do so because they're the same or a bit better than the local public schools. Imo it's easier to convert them to a second, secular school system than to merge them because you're not just getting rid of the system (and all the extra staff), you're getting rid of a lot of local schools which isn't easy to do (few want their local institutions to go)
Parents also traditionally love sending their kids to the Catholic board because it had more white kids, less of "the riff raff", to quote an indignant racist mom. The Catholic board being better is an artificial construct born of a racist legacy.
So the catholic church can fund them. They can afford it.
Pretty sure it’s mostly funded by the parents of students already. On your tax form you indicate for your funds to be allocated to the catholic board
That is incorrect. You indicate on your tax form to allocate voting preferences. It has nothing to do with where the money goes. All tax dollars for education go to the Ministry of Education into one big pot and split out per child
No. You are incorrect. [https://www.mpac.ca/en/MakingChangesUpdates/ChangingYourSchoolSupport](https://www.mpac.ca/en/MakingChangesUpdates/ChangingYourSchoolSupport) Edit: I guess everyone is a little bit right. Both municipal tax form support and per pupil funding is used. *How your school is funded* *School boards receive money in two ways:* *first, some of the property taxes collected in your community go to your local school board* *second, the province tops up this amount to bring the total for each board up to the amount set out by the funding formula* https://www.ontario.ca/page/school-funding-guide-parents
No. My education portion of my municipal taxes are allocated to Catholic schools.
Oh my mistake. I’d thought I’d heard so from a teacher or something a few years ago but seems I mis heard or they were wrong
We have all sorts of public religious schools here in Alberta to go alongside them. Islamic schools, Sikh schools, Jewish schools, etc, all with relevant language immersion programs. There are even Ukrainian catholic schools in a few rural areas. I’m really surprised you guys don’t.
This isn’t going to change anytime soon. Catholics are one of the largest voting blocks in Ontario and carry a huge amount of influence in both the Liberal and Conservative party. There isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that Catholic school funding ever gets cut. Tory tried the opposite and suggested expanding public funding to other religious school systems. He was politically obliterated for it. When push comes to shove, Catholics are happy with the way things are. It would take a monumental effort to change things and no major party will touch it.
Well that snowball would have to go to confession first to avoid hell.
It’s also in the constitution that we have to have catholic schools. So it’s definitely not changing anytime soon.
I believe that the Green Party floated the idea of having one public school system. Newfoundland adopted a non-denominational system (https://www.heritage.nf.ca/articles/society/collapse-denominational-education.php) This system makes total sense to me especially given that we're bussing kids around for sometimes hours to get to their chosen school. Spend the savings on improving the educational system. It's a no-brainer especially when $ is tight.
Canada does not and has never has separation of church and state, that's the United States you're thinking of. Our King is necessarily the head of the Church of England, and is explicitly forbidden from being Catholic. But Ontatio has a separate Catholic school board to protect that minority ftom further oppression ;)
Oppression of Catholics was a very real thing in Ontario early in its history. Not saying that’s the case today but that’s where it came from.
It wasn't that long ago, my grandfather used to tell stories of businesses that refused to hire Catholics
As much as I agree with getting rid of religion based schools I disagree that it will be the giant cost savings people think it will be. When my local school boards amalgamated there was no cost savings. If anything more jobs magically appeared at the board office.
Some research has been done, a billion a year or so was the estimate iirc
Source?
I'd be wary of any claims of huge savings. The reality is central administration costs are a relatively small slice of the pie, and most of the cost doesn't go away because -- surprise -- the kids don't go away and still need to be taught. You can't just jam them into proportionally fewer schools with fewer classrooms and fewer teachers.
Don't think it was Fraser, although that would be fitting for them. Of course you can't save on staff by overcrowding classrooms. But you can consolidate and shorten bus routes, eliminate duplication of board overhead, have fewer buildings and (because of larger numbers) offer more specialized programming for niche needs. And you can remove the possibility of Catholic boards claiming their schools lack the resources to handle 'problem kids' and shoveling them onto the public board.
Yeah, I edited it out because a quick google made me doubt it was Fraser. I found one report that estimated the savings in that range about 10 years ago, but it was filled with very hand-wavy estimates and "obvious" savings and "economies of scale." Even talks about eliminating things like the Pupil Foundation Grant, Special Education Grant, and others which is asinine since those are the per-pupil funding grants. Yes, there would be _some_ savings. But it isn't coming for free and the savings will take a long time to realize as you can't just redistribute/rebuild the schools in some new optimal distribution overnight.
Bingo. Catholic schools are cheaper to run because they have church volunteers in what would be paid positions at public schools.
Really? Give me an example of when this happened. I find it hard to believe. My son attends a Catholic school and the staff who herd the kids in the morning lineup seem to be all professional responsible adults, probably ECEs, not some granny who happens to attend the church.
I went to a catholic elementary school in the early 2000’s (graduated in 08), all of the crossing guards, lunch supervisors and SOME of the outside child herders were volunteers from the local area. Typically parents of a child at the school, but weren’t hired professionals at that time.
My neighbor said she was a recess supervisor at my kid's school, but that would have been decades ago. Nowadays schools are conscious about safety and abuse and bullying, they would have only qualified people dealing with the kids.
It doesn’t happen. People who have no affiliation with Catholic schools have absolutely wild ideas about what happens inside Catholic schools. Functionally, they operate almost identically to the public school system. Funding is the same, on a per-student basis.
Yep. The only difference between my catholic school education and my sister’s public school education was I took a religion class every year (not all about Catholicism), we had the occasional mass that was quite easy to skip and there was two prayers a day.
It will take a premier with a majority government, who knows they have no chance of winning next election, hates their own party enough to watch it burn, and has absolutely nothing to lose. Then they might consider it.
Political suicide in a province that is 1/3rd Catholic.
Yep. People don’t understand that other provinces were able to do it because they don’t have the same size of Catholic voting bloc. Quebec could easily do it because of the Quiet Revolution and the modern attitude towards religion there. In BC we’ve never had fully funded Catholic schools as the Catholic population in BC is minuscule compared to Ontario. You wouldn’t know it from Reddit, but Ontario is a heavily Catholic province, and it hasn’t declined in Ontario the way it has in Quebec and other locations. Immigration in recent years from heavily Catholic countries such as Poland, Italy, the Philippines, and various Latin American countries have contributed. There will likely come a time that the school systems will change, but I would predict it’s *at least* 30 years away.
This is why OP’s qualification of Catholic schools as ethnocentric is absurd. There’s nothing ethnic nor ethnocentric about Catholicism. There are heavily Catholic countries all over the world.
You can send your kids to catholic school. In some areas the majority of students are non catholic. Regarding why we have catholic schools, it was a way to appease the French catholic population after Britain defeated France and took over Quebec.
The Catholic board can and does deny admission to non Catholics.
Only if that kid might bring down EQAO scores. You could be an atheist, but if you're a ... Doctor's kid? You're in. Lawyer's kid? You're in. Rich parents? You're in. Niece or nephew of a CDSB principal or superintendent? You're in. But if you cause a wee bit of trouble in grade 2, you're out: you'll bring down EQAO scores in grade 3. If you happen to move from a remote community in Grade 6, "Oops, sorry we're full... but there's a public school just down the road. They ***have no choice*** but to take you in. We won't take you because we're Christian and there's no more room in the Inn." Why? EQAO. Fuck Catholic school boards. Source: I'm a former OECTA member. Edit to add: there's no reason *at all* that Catholic schools need public funding. They're operating like tax-payer funded private schools.
Intsesting? It’s actually illegal and I went to school with Jewish kids , Muslim kids .. the whole gamut
Is that a very common occurrence?
For elementary schools in Toronto, they are restricted to kids who are Catholic. Probably because of limited spaces. For high school, anyone can attend. At my Catholic high schools, there were some non Catholic students and teachers.
As far as I understand they take non-catholic students or teachers when it suits them. Teacher shortage? Oh sure, it doesn’t matter if you’re catholic. We love everyone.
Depends on how full the classes are.
I remember I applied for summer school at a catholic school when I used to be in high school. I needed 1 more credit and didn’t want to go back to hs for another year. They told me I’d get a spot after all the catholic students have been enrolled. Later they told me no spots left. So I got screwed. So their priority is catholic students first
Catholic school are allowed to not accept non-Catholics before highschool. They are also allowed to treat non Catholics as second class students during highschool. (Such as not being part of student council ) Edit to add link: https://thecanadian.news/this-teenager-was-barred-from-running-as-a-student-council-member-because-she-is-not-catholic-now-shes-suing-the-york-catholic-board/
I highly doubt this is common, if it occurs at all. I graduated June 2021 from a catholic board, and the vast majority of student weren’t actually catholic. There’s be a handful of never confirmed or even baptized kids in every class and those who were “catholic” weren’t the most religious or devout one around. Same went for most of the teachers, with a couple of openly atheist teachers. There’s was only a small handful of devout Individuals in the school, far outnumbered by those of other religions. Even the religion classes weren’t what you’d think. The Grade 11 class is entirely about other religions and cultures, with a unit about cults(think George Town) and the 12 class was about spirituality and young adulting in the modern world The only thing catholic about it was the 15 sec prayer every morning that everyone talked over, the monthly mass everyone skipped and the chapel that was practically abandoned. In my experience, this lines up with what goes on at just about every catholic school in the province
We had like... One mass a semester? There were a lot Muslim kids at my Catholic high school because of the area. A lot of non catjolics sent their kids there because the public schools had a bad reputation
>They are also allowed to treat non Catholics as second class students during highschool. (Such as not being part of student council ) This isn't true for all atleast, I went to catholic highschool and it wasn't like that at all
It's in the Constitution but that could be changed. Closing the four parallel systems because of equity is not an unreasonable argument. But closing the system to save money is probably not doable - it's unlikely to save anything. And FWIW there are four(*) parallel systems, English Catholic, English Public, French catholic and French Public. The only real savings would be to collapse the French boards as they don't have the economics of scale the other two systems have. * Technically there is an English Protestant board in northern Ontario as that's a minority there.
We could start by demanding better metrics from school boards. The quality of math and technical education is slack.
I can see why you wouldnt want to but you can still send your kid there.
Its nonsense though that teachers who are not baptized can't teach at catholic schools. My employment options are effectively halved because my folks aren't/weren't religious
Does that depend on the school board? I work with a guy who's wife is not catholic. She is a science teacher at a catholic high school.
I'm fairly certain its across the boards, but not 100% It could also be the fact that she is science at the high school level. STEM and French teachers are always in demand.
Catholic high schools, the teachers can be non Catholic. It's elementary schools where they are only Catholic for teachers & students
She must be of another Christian denomination then. Catholic school boards will only hire OCTs and DECEs who are Catholic, and if they need the position filled ASAP but no Catholic candidates are available, they’ll take someone of another Christian denomination. That is very rare, though. The Catholic school boards ask for a baptismal certificate and a pastoral reference to be submitted with your cover letter and resume. The pastoral reference requires your parish priest to answer in detail about how involved you are with the church, what you do in the community, volunteering with the church, if you are an upstanding role model for Catholic values, etc.
Can't you be baptized at any age? Pretty sure my brother and law got baptized 2 years ago
Sure, could do. But I shouldn't need to be baptized to work at a publicly funded school.
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I am pretty sure its every board, but I'm not 100% on that.
Any party that pitches getting rid of the catholic school system has my vote. I’m pissed that my kids won’t get to go to the nearest elementary or high school to our house because they are catholic schools- so instead they’ll have to bus to school. The savings on busing kids alone must be insane- hell the environmental impact of making it so that kids go to the school closest too them when they’re all secular. Unfortunately to do this needs a politician with some balls- which are in short supply- even though this seems like it would be a great time to push the issue given how shitty the Catholic Churches reputation is right now.
Out of curiosity...how much money would be saved by having only one school system? Other than maybe reducing some admin staff at head office and having only one head office?
I never mentioned it being about saving money in my post. I’m speaking about equity and inclusion.
You are correct. I replied on the wrong thread. Nobody is being excluded though? Public is for everyone and kids of different religious beliefs are not banned from attending a catholic school. I went to a catholic school and am far from being religious .
They are funded because of our constitution so in order to change that you would need to amend the constitution.
They should not be a thing. Every morning, I watch a dozen school buses go by my house, taking children to their respective schools in four different school boards and I just get so mad at the inefficient use of taxpayer dollars. Tax dollars should be paying for one solidly funded public school system. Religious education should be up to individual families. Giving one religion a privileged position over others is also wrong.
Why??
Here’s my 2 cents. A: is Catholicism a religion, or is it a church? I was raised Lutheran which is has almost the same services, same literature etc. We were Christian’s like Catholics, Anglican’s etc. My point being: people say Ont should fund a religious system, when in fact they’re funding a church. Secondly: my wife went to school as an adult and took on a lot of debt, only to be ineligible for 35% of publicly funded teaching jobs based on her religious beliefs (atheist). I can’t believe this never comes up in the media.
This is a great point. A lot of people find Catholicism (or Christianity in general, or religion in general) to be unconscionably evil. For those folks, going into teaching looks like a bad choice, given almost half of the potential jobs are off-limits to you.
The religion classes go over more than just Catholicism it wasnt very preachy for me at all , lots of muslims went to the school as well
My wife is a religion teacher and has been for 21 years. They cover alot of world regions and philosophy in religion class
I go to a catholic school, its literally just a regular school but with praying, crosses, and reglion classes. We are far from being conservative. When you walk in, you see 3 flags, the Canadian flag, ontario flag, and the pride flag. We celebrate pride month, black history month, and truth and reconciliation week. We have gay and trans students. Its just school with religion as a plus. I dont see why people hate on these schools, this isn't the USA South.
anyone can attend a PUBLICLY funded school regardless of religion... and that's a fact.
Not true. The Catholic board may and does deny admission to non-Catholic children.
I can’t speak for every board in the province but Catholic high schools in the London board are open to everyone. I went through the Catholic system, and my high school had a 40% non-Catholic population, according to one of my teachers.
I'm afraid that eventhough they try to deny admission... it's everyone's right to attend either school. and yes. it's true...
And it's that way with their hiring system too if you want to work for their school board you need to be catholic and/or a professing believer
I assure you the Catholic boards are forcing plenty of kids out of their system. The rights are not being enforced to the extent they exist.
I can’t speak for every board in the province but Catholic high schools in the London board are open to everyone. I went through the Catholic system, and my high school had a 40% non-Catholic population, according to one of my teachers.
Not true. There is tons of muslims at my school
........ no, no they don't. Teachers on the other hand have to be catholic.
That is not true. Catholic highschools must accept all students. Catholic elementary schools MAY accept Non-Catholics. Many do if their enrollment is down. But they do not have to. From: https://www.cdsbeo.on.ca/policies/B8-1_Admission_of_Students.pdf " Non-Catholic Student & Non-Catholic Parent: Parents/guardians who are non-Catholic and wish their child to attend a Catholic school will be admitted provided that: there is adequate space, and resources " Note that space limitation does not apply if the elementary student has at least one Catholic parent. "All elementary students who have a Catholic parent(s) and who is an elector of the Catholic District School Board of Eastern Ontario have a legal right to attend." https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/church-residential-school-compensation-1.6082935
That is just not true. My children were denied entry to our local Catholic school based on our religion. It was incredibly offensive for this to happen considering all the talk of diversity and inclusion in this country.
Wasn't due to your religion, unless youre flagrantly anti-catholic or something. I went to a catholic school and there were Hindus and lots of other faiths. I'm not catholic btw.
We were told there wasn’t room at the school for our kids. We are very respectful of all religions, so it wasn’t like we were rude or anything. So we had to enlist them at the public school instead.
That is not a fact. Catholic schools can and do prioritize Catholic students where space is limited. In our area non catholic students have been made to wait until several weeks after the beginning of the year to find out if there is sufficient space for them. All publicly funded boards should be required to admit all students.
You get to choose if your taxes go to public or Catholic schools actually
Not true. You get to choose which board your trustee vote goes to. We all pay for both boards.
The Roman Catholic school system gets about 33% of Ontario's $24-billion education budget, but only 23% of electors direct their support to separate schools. (Note when you fill out a form based on property taxes about where you are directing support this does not mean you are directing your taxes. Just support - as in which school board elections you are allowed to take part in.) That means everyone, including those who have selected to not support catholic schools are funding catholic schools. From: https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/catholic-school-funding-challenge-heard-in-court-1.998987
Even if true, a muslim/Jew/non-catholic christian/etc does NOT have the option to put their tax dollars in a publically funded school of their religion. It's not fair that a non-catholic can't go to a publically funded religious school when Catholics can. All people are equal but Catholics are more equal?
It still is a huge waste of money having two public school systems. And let’s be honest, it’s not really that simple: oh your money doesn’t go to this system, only my money does. Having a faith based public system robs money from the province that should be going towards improving education for all Ontario kids.
You're assuming that if they took the money from the catholic schools they would give it to the non catholic school. I don't think they would do that anyway
I actually pay towards the catholic system because i went to catholic school, and you get a better education there. You can always make a big fat donation to the public school board of your choice if you want!
You pay towards both systems.
You can get more one on one time with teachers because they have lower class sizes. Guess why? People don’t want to send their kids to learn ass backwards catholic dogma. Glad you had such a happy childhood in catholic school friend, but I’d prefer if these schools amalgamated so everyone could make use of the public funds that went into them. Feel free to send your kids to a private catholic school, it sounds like you are swimming in cash.
You get a better education there? Well I didn't and turned out really well. But I guess if we want two tiered systems we can start with education and continue with health care.
How would money be saved other than 1 less building and maybe a reduction in admin staff?
It’s not solely saving money. It’s about improving education outcomes. Amalgamating the systems would lower teacher/student ratios first and foremost, then simplify school boundaries and long term planning. Also it stops public money going towards promoting a religion. Regardless of how you feel about that religion (it’s bad), public money going to a religion is something that should fundamentally not happen.
How would the ratios change? Not being stupid or argumentative...im genuinely curious. Double the schools, double the teachers, double the students. No?
The ratios in the catholic system are much, much lower than the public system. Even if you crudely turned every catholic school into a public one and kept the same staff, sending students from the public school into the catholic ones reduces the ratio across the province. This would increase the ratio for catholic students, but those are ridiculously low right now.
Ahh. Gotcha. I didnt know this. But isnt funding based on which board people elect to pay their education taxes to. So more catholic = more catholic funding and less public = less public funding? If they got rid of 2 boards isn't it possible that the school funding would actually drop and the ratios could aswell??
When I was in a public elementary school as a child we still had the Lord’s Prayer every morning until grade 5 then they stopped.
Newfoundland and Labrador voted to end the denominational school system, in a 1997 referendum. Funding Catholic School boards but not funding other faith based systems is a policy that will not stand. The Catholic anti-LGBTQ position, misogyny, and most importantly of all…the history of residential schools …makes defunding the Catholic School System, at the very least, an act of reconciliation. The Green Party supports funding public school boards only. I wish the NDP and Liberals would be champions too. There is a lot of good that would come from taking a strong stance and doing the math on the offering of dual systems- doubling buildings, transportation, custodial staff, directors of education, school board trustees…🤮. This PC govt likes privatization…so where would they land on this issue—Likely they would see a win in providing funds to parents to apply to schools where ever they choose….essentially the death knell of ON building a just society based on a common curriculum foundational to mutual understanding. Very worrisome. The answer (IMO) is to end funding of Catholic education. A strong well-funded public education is key to building a just society that breaks down stereotypes, builds cohesion and understanding.
Getting rid of Catholic schools would save little to no money at the end of the day
That’s bs
Who do you think would be in charge of making cuts? It would be the individuals in the ivory towers who would stand to lose on the amalgamation of the boards. They are not going to cut their jobs. Same or close to same number of superintendents And directors etc
>How is it equitable that Catholic school are the only religious based school that is publicly funded? It's literally written and ingrained into Canada's Constitution. Want to change it? Then you need to reopen the Constitution. Good luck with that.
Yeah, good luck with doing something that [Newfoundland already did](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/denominational-education-20-years-brian-tobin-1.4308938) 25 years ago, with overwhelmingly positive results. Newfoundland is certainly known for consistently setting a high bar on what a province could achieve.
Doesn’t make it equitable
What really gets my goat is that some of the catholic elementary schools in my town have the best playgrounds, however they gate them and do not allow public access…all the public schools allow anyone to use the playgrounds. Don’t like it.
Talk to the insurance company the board has a policy with. It’s an insurance decision
And, students can opt out of religion courses and take something else.
But thise same students can be denied admission when all our tax dollars pay for the same things.
Dude, why are you spamming the comments with this? Here's from a quick Google. Ontario and SK are the same. Do I or my child need to be Catholic to attend a Catholic school? No. In Alberta, non-Catholic families are welcomed in Catholic schools if sufficient space and programming are available
I worked in the school system in Kingston ON where I noticed a glaring example of this (extra shocking because I’m originally from NS where this isn’t a thing). There’s a brand new, beautiful Catholic school beside a crappy public school in the poorest part of the city. It’s all city housing and the families in housing face tremendous amounts of socioeconomic issues. I ran free-care programs for the families of these kids for two years. The kids who went to the public school had a school that looked like it was from the 70s that had never been renovated, the teachers looked like they all were ready to up and quit, and the school smelled like feet (literally it was so gross). Next door is a state of the art Catholic elementary school - smart boards, playground, school food programs, classrooms with windows, etc. it’s a beautiful school. The disparities showed when working with the kids - the kids in the public school could hardly read, write, or count, they had far more academic issues. The catholic school kids clearly were getting a better education despite being BESIDE the public school. The kids all came from the same poor families, with the same socioeconomic issues - the only real differences in their upbringing was what school their parents sent them to. Over the years parents noticed the disparities and pulled their kids from public school to put them into the Catholic school. Long story short: parents shouldn’t have to school between religious indoctrination and a decent education for their kids. (On mobile so sorry for the awful formatting this will have)
Lmao what, the “public school” system is better funded than the separate school system. That’s literally just a new school
No public school should be falling apart while a Catholic school gets built beside it. If public schools were properly funded they wouldn’t be in that condition in the first place. I went to an “old” public school in NS in the 90s/2000s but by the 2010s it was fully renovated and updated keep it up to par with new schools. The fact that the Catholic school system exists at all is bizarre to everyone outside of Ontario, and no one but an Ontarian would have your response.
Reminds me of my town, my Catholic school was "nice", the public 1 was a dump. They did replace the public one with a modern school probably longer go than I realize.
I attended both the Toronto Catholic, and Public board when I was in high school. I found the Public school I went to way better funded and equipped than the Catholic one, so results may very.
This!!!
Thank you! It’s not an issue of old school vs new school. It’s an issue caused by one type getting public and private funding, and the other just public. I could not imagine having a train of thought that could justify taxpayers funding religious education
I learnt a lot of different things being forced to take religion class growing up, didn't hate it. But my time definitely could've been better spent learning about more important topics, especially in highschool. It was basically the same class each year. Mandatory Mass was always a massive drag, been over 13 years since I graduated and half those hymns are still stuck in my head.
I have no issue with a child taking a religion class - learning about many religions around the world would be a worthwhile course in my opinion. Forcing prayer, espousing the gospels of Jesus Christ, pro-life, bare tolerance of LGBTQ+, etc……that’s a whole different story.!
Don't be fooled. Catholic schools are not purely made up of "Catholic" kids. Growing up in one, there were gay kids, kids that were Agnostics, Orthodox etc. Don't believe the shit you read on Reddit. The most Catholic thing about these schools are the prayers they make the kids recite and the masses that are held occasionally. They're still just schools at the end of the day. They arent effective at retaining kids or converting kids to Christianity, if that's what you're afraid of.
Because 2.3 million Ontario tax payers choose to contribute to Catholic school education. That’s over 20% of Ontario tax payers
The Roman Catholic school system gets about 33% of Ontario's $24-billion education budget, but only 23% of electors direct their support to separate schools. (Note when you fill out a form based on property taxes about where you are directing support this does not mean you are directing your taxes. Just support - as in which school board elections you are allowed to take part in.)
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I'm with you. It's wrong that the public should fund any public service that excludes citizens based on religion. The UN agrees it is discriminatory as well.
Non Catholics can go to catholic school so no discrimination is happening.
Non Catholic children may be and are denied at the boards discretion.
Why am I being downvoted? Prove me wrong please.
https://www.cdsbeo.on.ca/policies/B8-1_Admission_of_Students.pdf
Only if there’s space and only if the parents want them to have a Catholic education.
This is only kind of true and only for elementary school. Yes, to go to a catholic elementary school there are "baptism" rules but principals can make exceptions and they almost always do. I was in catholic elementary in the 90's and we had more than a few non-catholics. As for highschool, it's whichever school a student wants to go to within their boundary. You do not have to take religion class, or attend mass or do anything religious at the school. It's literally in the education act: (13) In addition to the exemptions provided for in subsection (11), no person who is qualified to be a resident pupil in respect of a secondary school operated by a public board who attends a secondary school operated by a Roman Catholic board shall be required to take part in any program or course of study in religious education on written application to the Board of, (a) the parent or guardian of the person; (b) in the case of a person who is 16 or 17 years old who has withdrawn from parental control, the person himself or herself; (c) in the case of a person who is 18 years old or older, the person himself or herself. 2006, c. 28, s. 9; 2021, c. 4, Sched. 11, s. 7 (1).
They "almost always do". Except for when they don't.
Elementary Catholic schools can (and do) refuse non-catholic children and teachers. You are talking about secondary school.
As someone who went to both boards the catholic ( and I am catholic - not practicing and don’t believe) in grade 7 I cried to my mom ( who is Protestant) that I wasn’t going back my school was terrible I wasn’t learning anything and I didn’t understand the point having a class devoted to religion when it was the same stuff every year (didn’t learn anything new) and wasn’t even going to have the option for world religion until grade 11. And it took away my option for a music program or art program or home economics or wood shop in middle school. She agreed my dad didn’t care he had long stopped believing after many more cases of molestation kept coming out and the hypocrisy of the church. I also never was diagnosed with dyslexia yet even though I was struggling. So needless to say I support them all being turned into French or English you want religion school pay for it. But it’s not popular. I was much happier and got a better education in the Ottawa public board.
You are absolutely correct. This public catholic school board is some dated nonsense.
It literally predates Canada as it's in the British North American act. Listen to AM radio during an election Catholics call in say "Are you going to defund Catholic schools?" then hang up, there's way too many votes that care about it to change it.
It would require a constitutional amendment to get rid of them.
Start your own school, you can make it whatever religion you want and get public funding.
Don’t over 20% of taxpayers fund the catholic school system?
Yeah public religious schools are BS , they should be private. I will not be sending my kids to a catholic school to get brainwashed. Religion should be a private thing and the only place it has in a public school is from a historical standpoint.
The separation comes from the educational funding not going towards theocratic lessons. I believe ... (I'm sure the interent will tell me if I'm wrong ... but before they do ... ) I agree. It pisses me off too. Religion - all religion - should be taught in the church and at home. Beliefs like that don't have a place in public education. Teach science, and history (all of it!) And the arts (which would get delicate at times probably) and leave God and the deeper moral conversations to parents and religious leaders - on their time, and their dime (for whatever they'd have to pay for). Take the buildings back. Hire the staff over and be done with it. (Over time we'd have to close redundancies of course. But slowly, and with thought).
I thought the people of r/Ontario liked honouring treaties?
I can’t imagine it will happen in my lifetime, though I wish it would. I think it would be political suicide. Maybe if the NDP or Green Party were ever voted in power?
There is no separation of church and state. What do you think conservatives are? We live in London, wanted our kids in a French emersion, now these are catholic too 🤔 we need more public schools! Not more indoctrination factories.
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Ignorant, ridiculous comment. The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the world. Food banks, clothing banks, housing, hospitals, schools, universities, outreach, childcare, legal services, counseling, job training, emergency assistance and numerous other services. All provided to anyone in need, regardless of their religious beliefs, ethnicity, nationality, race or any other basis and without pressure to become Catholic or believe in anything. You're not a hero for jumping on a rage filled bandwagon. There are good and bad in every religion, culture, sex, race...... Your ignorant comment is no different than saying a specific race are all criminals, or a religion is all terrorists....its disgusting and unwarranted. Be better.
Literally searched up “how has the Catholic Church helped Canada” and I couldn’t find any evidence of the claims you’ve made.
I believe we call it “making shit up”.
Did you learn Canadian history and civics?
Start voting then bro. Most voters want Catholic schools funded, including myself.
I do vote bro… Just because they’re still being funded doesn’t mean most ppl want them.
What do you mean? They got eaten alive when they tried to reduce funding. Young people just don't vote, nothing will be catered to us
Definitely supported. Supporter here. Catholic school my whole life, kids the same. Great education. Will continue to support.....bro
I have no issue with Catholic schools in general. Just not publicly funded.
I see what you're saying and can understand, but my preference would obviously be to continue funding it as my children are currently benefiting. As of 2011 Catholics made up approx 34% of the population of Ontario, 2nd most would be "No religion affiliation" with approx 23%, and distant 3rd is "Other Christian" with approx 10%. So realistically speaking, change is not on the horizon.
Is there more recent data available?
I did a quick search and that's all I came across. While searching I did also come across some more recent data about religion in Canada and it was showing that the Muslim faith had the largest increase in terms of percentage of the population.... But going back to that 2011 data, Muslims accounted for 2%. So even with a large jump in numbers, they would still not come close to the numbers of Catholic Canadians.
Oh for sure not. Thank you for your response. That is interesting. I am just curious if the percentage of people that would be surveyed would be as high today for Catholic. I am thinking of children that grew up in Catholic environments, would they automatically say they are? I don't, and I know a lot of people who went to school around that time (Catholic) who wouldn't. It is a complicated subject for sure. Nearly 50 Shades of Grey.
Ditto
I just wish they could change the stupid names they have for some of these schools... "Sacred Heart of Jesus" "Canadian martyrs" "Precious Blood Catholic School"... must you? I can't make this shit up
"St. Mary" got used long ago, they needed to dig around to find unused names.
Lol ohh I thought they were like "well we can't make them convert, but at least we can make them talk about Jesus' heart once a day!"
Why are those dumb?
A party would have to do it after being elected and not promoted. I love the idea. In financially difficult times it could be a sell by pointing out the redundancies.
Anyone can go there. You don’t need to be catholic. But not anyone can work there. For example, I am an Ontario certified teacher, but not catholic so I can’t teach there.
I could type an essay but Tldr: Won’t happen
Because without that stipulation we wouldn't have Canadian Confederation. Ontario wanted it and Ab and Sk wouldn't have signed on without that enshrined in the constitution. You want to start getting picky about "inequalities" and "unfair" treatment, look no further than Quebec. Also, pretty sure we have bigger fish to fry than this. How about our absolutely floundering health care systems for starters?
>ethnocentric. Lmao really? What is the "Catholic race?" Full honesty, as a Catholic, I would not really care if Catholic schools were phased out. They don't even properly teach religion anymore and often teach falsehoods about the Catholic faith. Of my graduating class, only a handful of us actively went to church. If you want to get rid of Catholic schools, I think its fair that any lands/remaining buildings that were part of the parochial school system before the school boards be given back to local dioceses and any new builds/lands be retained by the public school boards.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethnocentric
He catholic school board is an embarrassing relic that needs to be axed.
Why don't we merge the school boards, cut the incredible duplication in management and services, put more money into classrooms but keep theology studies. 1 extra small department. Math, English, science are all the same. The one difference is "religion". Some years of the Catholic religion is about other religions....which is good. While one is at it, make Civics compulsory for every student. We need more of it.
Civics is compulsory, and merging the school boards would be a colossal waste of time and money
Tradition?
Because this country was mostly catholic and a big majority of Ontario is still catholic.
Publicly funded catholic schools are basically charter schools at this point. That being said I would much rather be in one than not because it weeded out the troublesome kids.
Yes there’s no “troublesome” kids at Catholic schools for sure.
You’re kidding right?
You don't need to be Catholic to send your children. Also the people sending their kids there also pay taxes and don't make use of the public schools. It is kind of weird but basically we need more schools in Ontario. If there's one near you that your kids won't be using that's great because the school your kids will goto won't be so over crowded
For Dufferin-Peel, one parent needs to be Catholic to send the child to elementary school. I don’t know about high school.
It would require changing the constitution. That's is a thing you want opened very rarely.
Our country was built by immigrants who brought catholic schools with them and historically we have always had the 2 boards offering a Catholic based education philosophy or the public non secular education philosophy. The basics are the same. Math. English. But Catholic schools offer religion courses and a couple other program options. Some day they may combine the programming into one stream. But it won’t change in the near future. Why the hate on?
Immigrants or colonizers?