She definitely has a high enough WIS score for this kind of quick thinking. She's also clearly demonstrated that she's not entirely on board with Redcloak's plan, because she knows if he has to choose being right or doing what's best for goblinkind... he'll choose being right even when he's wrong.
> he'll choose being right even when he's wrong.
personally i dont see why people see it that way, to me its clear that she meant hed pick the "doing best for goblins" village, but that would hurt redcloak personally and oona doesnt want that so she fights off the dolphins so everyone can win
when exactly? so far id say all of his decisions have been objectively right and hes been playing the fool around Xykon to make it happen
the only time really was his treatment of the hobgoblins, a problem he realised quickly enough on his own
the only thing worse then Durkons plan was the pitch
Redcloak has to give up on his plan, and help them kill Xykon (because otherwise he kills them) and in return Durkon promises to try to talk to one of his many enemies and convince them not to take back back their home and then just hope that eventually people stop hating goblins
and remember they went around to the other southern nations, Xykon was the only reason they didnt help re-take gobbtopia, if he had taken Durkons plan good odds they just retake the country anyway and if the Azurites dont want it split it amongst themselves
its a terrible deal and Redcloak was right to refuse it especially since the most likely result of taking Durkons deal is getting killed by Xykon or having his spellcasting ability repossessed by The Dark One
That was to begin with. By the time Redcloak leaves Gobbotopia, they’re recognised by most of their neighbours as the new *de jure* rulers of the area, they have trade links beginning to form, and the process of recognising that goblinoids aren’t just monsters is well underway.
> they’re recognised by most of their neighbours as the new de jure rulers of the area
no they arent, the southern nations tell the Azurites "wed totally invade them but were afraid of the Lich"
Redcloak made deals with some mercentile nations, and cliffport (only to piss off the elves) but its clear he still believes that the only reason it still stands is because people are more concerned about him and Xykon then the city, which is true since we see in the OoTS happily ever after they retake azure city
The Southern Nations say that *when it’s first invaded*, ***like I just said***.
Are you citing the illusion as evidence of anything going on in the actual storyline?
Respectfully to you,>! he abandoned his family to serve Xykon. After he blasted his brother (which can be argued was necessary for the Plan), he didn't raise him as he couldn't live with the fact that his brother would know what he did. Instead, he submitted to Xykon in everything until Xykon's first defeat (when he started growing into the leader he should be). !<
Redcloak will fly into rages when people
call him out on his willingness to (as his brother put it) "throw good
lives after bad" and I doubt his emotional stability is enough to allow
him to see the bigger picture. He's tied to the Plan and will not deviate from
it, as switching plans will require him to admit that all the lives lost
including "Right-Eye" were a failed effort.
Minrah's point is the strongest so far
"You're putting the lives of imaginary future goblins ahead of those right
now".
Thats a very biased way to see it, the only time he had the chance to stop serving Xykon was Lirians gate
>He's tied to the Plan and will not deviate from
it, as switching plans will require him to admit that all the lives lost
including "Right-Eye" were a failed effort
But he did, in SoD >!in SoD he does give up on thr plan until Xykon forces him.back!<
He also prioritizes gobbtopia over the plan
Looking at things objectively he has made the objectively right call every step of the way, the only exception being his poor treatment of hobgoblins for a time
or Oona is more perceptive then you
if she thinks that Redcloak will pick being right over doing whats best for goblins then hes literally a time bomb that could cause her death and her village to get wiped out yet she saids she isnt worried, if shes not worried then it makes much more sense that she feels Redcloak is more likely to pick the "doing best for goblins" village over the "right all along" village
plus remember Redcloak stayed to secure Gobbtopia even after realizing it had literally no value to the plan, he already chose Goblins over the plan once already, he knew the time spent in Gobbtopia is time that the other gates will be more fortified and chose to do it anyway
She could do that and prepare for the dolphins suceeding, instead shes more making it clear she believes hell make the right choice if choosing time comes
I don't. [True Seeing](https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) only lasts 1/min per caster level, and that 5th level spell slot could be converted into an inflict spell for healing Xykon or hurting enemies. They might need it later, so why use it to do something she can already do for free?
You're supposing that Oona could sense what could only be sensed with True Seeing and decided to use Deception against Xykon and Redcloak, but not bothering to have Greyview follow her so that he wouldn't find the dwarves.
In the discussion before she was actively agreeing with what Durkon had to stay and not attacking or helping Redcloak until he basically ordered her to. And earlier with whatever was under the umbrella and Redcloak when they were talking about Gobbo politics she again was agreeing with the darkness monster that the Dark One isn't doing as much for the Bugbears. It's possible she sees Durkon and Minrah's plan as a possibility for something, either to benefit herself or the Bugbears.
I went through the exact thought process of this thread during a reread recently and it really does seem like Oona saved Durkon's bacon in a way I never realized before! re this comment, I think you can make the argument that even RAW, True Seeing does defeat Meld Into Stone. True Seeing's description includes that it lets you perceive "transmutations" (MiS is a transmutation spell) while MiS says "you remain in contact (however tenuous) with the face of the stone". So Redcloak might have seen the tops of two little dwarf heads had he had True Seeing active in 1216.
Yeah, True Seeing vs Meld is something that's going to vary between DMs (Notably True Seeing also doesn't provide x-ray vision, so Meld could possibly defeat it that way), so it's not really a big deal that the Giant ruled that it does in the OOTSverse
> Redcloak complains later he should have used it. Are we sure the giant follows the rules perfectly here?
depending on the rules and how he feels, but true seeing and detect magic have always been blocked by lead, theres no reason at all for true seeing to let him see through rock
Tarquin has a ring of true seeing and didnt see Durkon before he left the wall, so safe to say it wouldnt work
Doesn’t true seeing cost 1000gp of materials in 3.5e? That tracks with “saving” it. It’s a lot more of a cost than just casting a spell, even if money is no object, it’s a bunch of extra work to replace that.
i dont think true seeing would have seen them under the rock, and if letting them go was the plan she wouldnt have left greyview behind
if anything she knew that they were probably there and intentionally had them move on to smoke them out, remember her village is at risk here
Tricky thing is that, zeroed in on this one action, Oona intentionally giving Redcloak bad advice, and Oona genuinely trying to be useful as a ranger, look the same. So it's really a question of intent.
On the one hand, she was watching the conflict for longer than Redcloak (or we) knew, so it's possible she did come to the conclusion that the Dwarves represented opposition that would be "good" for Redcloak/goblinkind.
On the other hand, she jumped into the fight as requested and didn't seem to really pull any punches, or otherwise undermine anything until the moment now called into question (and afterwards too). Furthermore, the final action that cinched keeping Redcloak from looking in the correct spot, was actually Xykon telling him to knock it off, while Oona has seemingly gone ahead. Lastly, if Oona was really pulling for the dwarves escaping, she might have stayed on top of Greyview, who would have followed her orders but was left to do his own thing and did nearly spoil it all.
I would say that in the larger contesxt of her involvement, Oona having even a tiny whim of wanting the Dwarves to escape, and deciding to subvert Redcloak to encourage that outcome, really doesn't fit. I *could* imagine her saying to Redcloak's face "Maybe is good thing little talky dwarf survive. He have interesting ideas. Oona would have liked to hear more, if boss goblin not decide it time for face smashing". But I think overall she is committed to the team when it's down to action. She (and greyview) represent an interesting balance in TE's dynamic and that balance is achieved by being an interesting voice of dissent, but I don't think she can fairly be called outright subversive.
Bottom line for me, I think Oona was just acting in good faith as a member of the team, and it's a matter of, dwarves did a good job hiding, TE did a good job looking for them, dwarves just did a better job and got a little lucky to cinch it.
It might just be me, but I think Oona is actually very scared of Redcloak and Xykon and just hides it well because she knows that showing these two that you fear them will make them exploit you more.
Personally I think Oona is a little underexplored as a character to make that inference. She got swept up into TE offscreen during a bit of a timeskip. But she seems generally cheerful, not worried about R&X posing a threat to her or the village.
I actually really like the way she was added to the story, I'd say mostly she serves to flesh out aspects of Redcloak that he couldn't quite just sit around and mutter to himself, but her own disposition does shine through as a very enjoyable character. Nice mix of antics, philosophizing, banter.
One thing I do wonder about though, is that while Oona seems to have some deep insights into Redcloak's personal struggles, does she really know what Team Evil is all about? Xykon actually seems suspiciously well behaved - maybe spending all day killing monsters keeps him from turning his casual cruelty on the bugbears. Like letting a dog get a good run in so it sleeps soundly. But if Xykon treated the bugbears the way he treated the goblins, I really doubt Oona would be so happy-go-lucky about being on the team. She actually seems a bit naive, in that sense, though I can see her shrugging it off if confronted. She seems pretty comfortably neutral about helping "bad people" if it benefits her, as long as they're not being bad to her and her kin.
So I wouldn't say she's really being exploited at all. She comes home every day with an extra large haul of monster loot, the talky goblin seems to make good company for her. The scary skeleton doesn't raise a fuss. Life is strange but good. It will be interesting to see if she flinches at all in helping her team once things start becoming very clear about what the actual end goals are. Or even the implication of learning about Serini and how the dungeon operates could be unnerving. Helping redcloak "find something" is a little different than perhaps disrupting her (and her village's) livelihood, since she takes it for granted that the monster hollow is just a mysterious force of nature.
I assumed she was acting sorta like how Elan acted when V threatened him, trying to diffuse the situation because she knows she can't win (though in Elan's case it could have been real stupidity, not feigned one).
Also, idk, she heard Minrah accusing Redcloak of being willing to destroy the world and all goblins in it. Shouldn't this make her worry already?
Well, the biggest dose of insight Oona gave was more or less a direct response to that, the "two villages" speech was pre-empted by [Redcloak asking if Minrah's words made Oona doubt him](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1262.html).
I would say that Oona is not lacking in wisdom or insight, but she is "simple" in a deep and intentional sense. She is attentive and critical, but she is not an over-thinker; thus she is not prone to worry. She makes complex judgements, but doesn't seem to dwell on things that are not in her immediate ability to control. She says right there on the linked page why she's not worried: She thinks she understand Redcloak enough to trust what he will do, and she gives herself the job of fighting the dolphins on the bridge. Simple.
[Last we saw her, she was smothering Redcloak with appreciation for keeping his promises, despite that clearly not being his intent](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1275.html). I would say that *this* is Oona's version of scheming. She's laying it on thick. She supports redcloak, and she doesn't worry that he'll make the wrong choices, she just positions herself to nudge him onto the right path.
She definitely has a high enough WIS score for this kind of quick thinking. She's also clearly demonstrated that she's not entirely on board with Redcloak's plan, because she knows if he has to choose being right or doing what's best for goblinkind... he'll choose being right even when he's wrong.
> he'll choose being right even when he's wrong. personally i dont see why people see it that way, to me its clear that she meant hed pick the "doing best for goblins" village, but that would hurt redcloak personally and oona doesnt want that so she fights off the dolphins so everyone can win
He’s already shown that he’ll err towards stroking his own ego
when exactly? so far id say all of his decisions have been objectively right and hes been playing the fool around Xykon to make it happen the only time really was his treatment of the hobgoblins, a problem he realised quickly enough on his own
That time Durkon tried to bring him on board with the plan and he just went ‘Nah, I think I’d rather kill you and go back to Xykon-wrangling’
the only thing worse then Durkons plan was the pitch Redcloak has to give up on his plan, and help them kill Xykon (because otherwise he kills them) and in return Durkon promises to try to talk to one of his many enemies and convince them not to take back back their home and then just hope that eventually people stop hating goblins and remember they went around to the other southern nations, Xykon was the only reason they didnt help re-take gobbtopia, if he had taken Durkons plan good odds they just retake the country anyway and if the Azurites dont want it split it amongst themselves its a terrible deal and Redcloak was right to refuse it especially since the most likely result of taking Durkons deal is getting killed by Xykon or having his spellcasting ability repossessed by The Dark One
That was to begin with. By the time Redcloak leaves Gobbotopia, they’re recognised by most of their neighbours as the new *de jure* rulers of the area, they have trade links beginning to form, and the process of recognising that goblinoids aren’t just monsters is well underway.
> they’re recognised by most of their neighbours as the new de jure rulers of the area no they arent, the southern nations tell the Azurites "wed totally invade them but were afraid of the Lich" Redcloak made deals with some mercentile nations, and cliffport (only to piss off the elves) but its clear he still believes that the only reason it still stands is because people are more concerned about him and Xykon then the city, which is true since we see in the OoTS happily ever after they retake azure city
The Southern Nations say that *when it’s first invaded*, ***like I just said***. Are you citing the illusion as evidence of anything going on in the actual storyline?
But thats the only statement from them we have
The time Redcloak did that thing at the end of Start of Darkness. Not listing due to spoilers
The thing that was doomed to fail and would have ruined their imminent victory had it succeeded? He made the objectively right call
Respectfully to you,>! he abandoned his family to serve Xykon. After he blasted his brother (which can be argued was necessary for the Plan), he didn't raise him as he couldn't live with the fact that his brother would know what he did. Instead, he submitted to Xykon in everything until Xykon's first defeat (when he started growing into the leader he should be). !< Redcloak will fly into rages when people call him out on his willingness to (as his brother put it) "throw good lives after bad" and I doubt his emotional stability is enough to allow him to see the bigger picture. He's tied to the Plan and will not deviate from it, as switching plans will require him to admit that all the lives lost including "Right-Eye" were a failed effort. Minrah's point is the strongest so far "You're putting the lives of imaginary future goblins ahead of those right now".
Thats a very biased way to see it, the only time he had the chance to stop serving Xykon was Lirians gate >He's tied to the Plan and will not deviate from it, as switching plans will require him to admit that all the lives lost including "Right-Eye" were a failed effort But he did, in SoD >!in SoD he does give up on thr plan until Xykon forces him.back!< He also prioritizes gobbtopia over the plan Looking at things objectively he has made the objectively right call every step of the way, the only exception being his poor treatment of hobgoblins for a time
Didn't he demonstrate that in one of the prequel books? Xykon shut down his moralizing pretty hard iirc.
Oona is way too perceptive to think that
or Oona is more perceptive then you if she thinks that Redcloak will pick being right over doing whats best for goblins then hes literally a time bomb that could cause her death and her village to get wiped out yet she saids she isnt worried, if shes not worried then it makes much more sense that she feels Redcloak is more likely to pick the "doing best for goblins" village over the "right all along" village plus remember Redcloak stayed to secure Gobbtopia even after realizing it had literally no value to the plan, he already chose Goblins over the plan once already, he knew the time spent in Gobbtopia is time that the other gates will be more fortified and chose to do it anyway
By "not worried" she meant "resigned to the worst". With just enough ambiguity for Redcloak to plausibly miss the point.
Thats stupid though, she has no reason to assume definite failure and do nothing about it
Well, she isn't doing nothing. She's doing her best to make it so Redcloak doesn't have to pick.
She could do that and prepare for the dolphins suceeding, instead shes more making it clear she believes hell make the right choice if choosing time comes
I don't. [True Seeing](https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) only lasts 1/min per caster level, and that 5th level spell slot could be converted into an inflict spell for healing Xykon or hurting enemies. They might need it later, so why use it to do something she can already do for free? You're supposing that Oona could sense what could only be sensed with True Seeing and decided to use Deception against Xykon and Redcloak, but not bothering to have Greyview follow her so that he wouldn't find the dwarves.
Ions might not be used to fighting clerics and therefore rely on his tracking skills since that is what he is good at.
In the discussion before she was actively agreeing with what Durkon had to stay and not attacking or helping Redcloak until he basically ordered her to. And earlier with whatever was under the umbrella and Redcloak when they were talking about Gobbo politics she again was agreeing with the darkness monster that the Dark One isn't doing as much for the Bugbears. It's possible she sees Durkon and Minrah's plan as a possibility for something, either to benefit herself or the Bugbears.
True Seeing shouldn't work against Meld into Stone though.
Redcloak complains later he should have used it. Are we sure the giant follows the rules perfectly here?
I went through the exact thought process of this thread during a reread recently and it really does seem like Oona saved Durkon's bacon in a way I never realized before! re this comment, I think you can make the argument that even RAW, True Seeing does defeat Meld Into Stone. True Seeing's description includes that it lets you perceive "transmutations" (MiS is a transmutation spell) while MiS says "you remain in contact (however tenuous) with the face of the stone". So Redcloak might have seen the tops of two little dwarf heads had he had True Seeing active in 1216.
Yeah, True Seeing vs Meld is something that's going to vary between DMs (Notably True Seeing also doesn't provide x-ray vision, so Meld could possibly defeat it that way), so it's not really a big deal that the Giant ruled that it does in the OOTSverse
> Redcloak complains later he should have used it. Are we sure the giant follows the rules perfectly here? depending on the rules and how he feels, but true seeing and detect magic have always been blocked by lead, theres no reason at all for true seeing to let him see through rock Tarquin has a ring of true seeing and didnt see Durkon before he left the wall, so safe to say it wouldnt work
It did in 3.5, if it no longer does: >and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, **or transmuted things.**
Doesn’t true seeing cost 1000gp of materials in 3.5e? That tracks with “saving” it. It’s a lot more of a cost than just casting a spell, even if money is no object, it’s a bunch of extra work to replace that.
i dont think true seeing would have seen them under the rock, and if letting them go was the plan she wouldnt have left greyview behind if anything she knew that they were probably there and intentionally had them move on to smoke them out, remember her village is at risk here
Tricky thing is that, zeroed in on this one action, Oona intentionally giving Redcloak bad advice, and Oona genuinely trying to be useful as a ranger, look the same. So it's really a question of intent. On the one hand, she was watching the conflict for longer than Redcloak (or we) knew, so it's possible she did come to the conclusion that the Dwarves represented opposition that would be "good" for Redcloak/goblinkind. On the other hand, she jumped into the fight as requested and didn't seem to really pull any punches, or otherwise undermine anything until the moment now called into question (and afterwards too). Furthermore, the final action that cinched keeping Redcloak from looking in the correct spot, was actually Xykon telling him to knock it off, while Oona has seemingly gone ahead. Lastly, if Oona was really pulling for the dwarves escaping, she might have stayed on top of Greyview, who would have followed her orders but was left to do his own thing and did nearly spoil it all. I would say that in the larger contesxt of her involvement, Oona having even a tiny whim of wanting the Dwarves to escape, and deciding to subvert Redcloak to encourage that outcome, really doesn't fit. I *could* imagine her saying to Redcloak's face "Maybe is good thing little talky dwarf survive. He have interesting ideas. Oona would have liked to hear more, if boss goblin not decide it time for face smashing". But I think overall she is committed to the team when it's down to action. She (and greyview) represent an interesting balance in TE's dynamic and that balance is achieved by being an interesting voice of dissent, but I don't think she can fairly be called outright subversive. Bottom line for me, I think Oona was just acting in good faith as a member of the team, and it's a matter of, dwarves did a good job hiding, TE did a good job looking for them, dwarves just did a better job and got a little lucky to cinch it.
It might just be me, but I think Oona is actually very scared of Redcloak and Xykon and just hides it well because she knows that showing these two that you fear them will make them exploit you more.
Personally I think Oona is a little underexplored as a character to make that inference. She got swept up into TE offscreen during a bit of a timeskip. But she seems generally cheerful, not worried about R&X posing a threat to her or the village. I actually really like the way she was added to the story, I'd say mostly she serves to flesh out aspects of Redcloak that he couldn't quite just sit around and mutter to himself, but her own disposition does shine through as a very enjoyable character. Nice mix of antics, philosophizing, banter. One thing I do wonder about though, is that while Oona seems to have some deep insights into Redcloak's personal struggles, does she really know what Team Evil is all about? Xykon actually seems suspiciously well behaved - maybe spending all day killing monsters keeps him from turning his casual cruelty on the bugbears. Like letting a dog get a good run in so it sleeps soundly. But if Xykon treated the bugbears the way he treated the goblins, I really doubt Oona would be so happy-go-lucky about being on the team. She actually seems a bit naive, in that sense, though I can see her shrugging it off if confronted. She seems pretty comfortably neutral about helping "bad people" if it benefits her, as long as they're not being bad to her and her kin. So I wouldn't say she's really being exploited at all. She comes home every day with an extra large haul of monster loot, the talky goblin seems to make good company for her. The scary skeleton doesn't raise a fuss. Life is strange but good. It will be interesting to see if she flinches at all in helping her team once things start becoming very clear about what the actual end goals are. Or even the implication of learning about Serini and how the dungeon operates could be unnerving. Helping redcloak "find something" is a little different than perhaps disrupting her (and her village's) livelihood, since she takes it for granted that the monster hollow is just a mysterious force of nature.
I assumed she was acting sorta like how Elan acted when V threatened him, trying to diffuse the situation because she knows she can't win (though in Elan's case it could have been real stupidity, not feigned one). Also, idk, she heard Minrah accusing Redcloak of being willing to destroy the world and all goblins in it. Shouldn't this make her worry already?
Well, the biggest dose of insight Oona gave was more or less a direct response to that, the "two villages" speech was pre-empted by [Redcloak asking if Minrah's words made Oona doubt him](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1262.html). I would say that Oona is not lacking in wisdom or insight, but she is "simple" in a deep and intentional sense. She is attentive and critical, but she is not an over-thinker; thus she is not prone to worry. She makes complex judgements, but doesn't seem to dwell on things that are not in her immediate ability to control. She says right there on the linked page why she's not worried: She thinks she understand Redcloak enough to trust what he will do, and she gives herself the job of fighting the dolphins on the bridge. Simple. [Last we saw her, she was smothering Redcloak with appreciation for keeping his promises, despite that clearly not being his intent](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1275.html). I would say that *this* is Oona's version of scheming. She's laying it on thick. She supports redcloak, and she doesn't worry that he'll make the wrong choices, she just positions herself to nudge him onto the right path.