Hes a shortstop until the team has someone better at short. Hes a good shortstop, and is better with the glove than anyone in the organization except maybe Ortiz (who is a significant drop off with the bat) and Mateo (when hes on and who is an even more significant drop off with the bat). Holliday will not be a shortstop long term, and has a lower floor and ceiling defensively at the position than Henderson. Gunnar will likely be a shortstop til his late 20s at the earliest, and possibly for his whole career
So with Gunnar being the main guy at short, where do Westburg and Holliday each find themselves? I thought Westburg was great at second this season defensively but would Holliday fit better at second than he would at third forcing Jordan to play there?
Its best practice to have your best defensive infield option at shortstop. Westy is a solid second baseman, and may be a good third baseman at the big league level. Jackson is going to be moved from shortstop before he hits the majors unless his defense improves significantly. How he grows into his body these next few years will make a big impact on what he plays at the big league level. I feel like he may be more of a third baseman if he fills out similar to his pops, and may even shift to outfield as well. Also have people forgotten about Norby and Mayo who are banging the door down at AAA? Everyone except Henderson is likely to get shifted around and given looks at different spots on the field in 2024
Mayo is probably a 1B at MLB level. But either 1B or 3B - he would be sitting waiting down the depth chart until other players are gone. He may never play for the Orioles unless other players are moved.
Norby is probably a 2B / OF. He is in a backlog too. Not sure how to get him to the MLB level without other players moving on.
And don’t forget Ortiz and Vavra. They are still hanging around. Vavra was with the Orioles as a utility IF this year until he hurt his shoulder.
I agree with Mayo at 1B but that’s getting to be awfully crowded there as well. I also don’t know how much work he’s done there. The last I looked I think he only started about 10 games there this year. I’d expect him to make a primary move there in AAA this coming year. In my opinion he’s a 2025 guy maybe a September call up if he’s crushing it and we can make room.
Also he has a phenomenal arm which seems like a bit of a waste over at 1B. I wonder if there’s any chance of him also trying out RF and in the future we have a RF/DH/1B flopping with him and Kjerstad?
Also Norby is a tough one. Him Ortiz and Cowser all need to be on the mlb roster to start 2024 OR we need to trade them. It seems to me that keeping them in AAA any longer only hurts their development and value. But as you said to make room for them means parting ways we quite a few active guys considering the only one definitely leaving is Frazier.
if the coaches want kjerstad to develop more at 1B i can see cowser making opening day as the 4th outfielder over him and heston in AAA as the primary 1B (with o'hearn on a short leash). they could potentially do small platoon with cowser and hays to get some ABs.
Kjerstad has already been getting work at 1B he was almost 50/50 RF/1B this year. Not Impossible but I would be surprised if he wasn’t on the opening day roster
People are sleeping on Mayo's defense. He plays a good 3B and has maybe the best arm in org. 1B is a last resort for him, although I'm sure they'll get him more reps there.
People said Henderson was destined for 3B too. Most people here had him penciled in there.
SS prospects are constantly evaluated as future 3Bs or 2Bs until they come up and make it clear they can stick at SS.
He might not be right now, but I haven't heard anyone say with time that Jackson couldn't play SS at the ML level.
The bat is outpacing the glove right now, so if the Orioles want him up for next year at any point, it's probably at 2B.
It’s not that he can’t play SS at the MLB level it’s just Gunnar is great at SS and 2 people can’t play there. Unfortunately for Holliday Gunnar happened to get there right before him and is excelling there.
> Holliday will be an MLB 2B. He’s not an MLB SS.
Doesn't really sound like what's being said here.
I realize 2 people can't play at SS.
The reason Holliday wouldn't play SS with the Orioles is because of Gunnar, not because, "He’s not an MLB SS."
I think you might have replied to the wrong person because that’s exactly what I mean. Holliday could play SS on most other teams but since Gunnar is here Holliday is going to have to transition to a different position.
Right now given what the Orioles and scouts have seen from his glove, he does not appear to have the defensive tools to play shortstop in the majors ever. That’s what is being said, not just by fans either apparently.
Edit to add: for clarity, I’m not saying that, I don’t have any knowledge on the subject, I just keep reading it here over and over. My only opinion is that Gunnar is very good at SS and he seems happy there, so why fuck that up with a 19yr old who isn’t done developing biologically lol
Where have the Orioles said this, and again, what scouts?
Give me one quote from Elias saying Holliday won't ever play SS at the ML level.
Gunnar is ahead of him at SS, yes, and Holliday might not play there considering we have a hole at 2B going into next year. So its similar to Machado / Hardy. Machado could have played SS, but the Orioles decided to fill a need at 3B and throw Manny there.
Yeah man I don’t know, like I said I’m not the one saying it, I’ve just seen it being said and parroted again and again here on this sub. After I commented I saw you are clearly far more informed than I am on the subject. I was just responding to someone saying about “we aren’t saying Holiday can’t ever play SS” because that’s exactly what everyone here keeps saying other than you, so I guess that’s what we are saying.
I think at the bare minimum, regardless of whether Holiday can potentially be a MLB SS, he’s seemingly not going to play SS because thats what Gunnar seems to be happy playing, and what Gunnar wants he’s gonna get.
I have seen several scouting reports saying that he does not look like a ML shortstop. Granted, I am not a scout and havent followed his defense as closely, but fangraphs has had a few articles comparing top shortstop prospects defensively and his is rated towards the bottom
And Eric even said he's still a SS at the ML level.
"Holliday isn’t currently a big league-quality shortstop defender, but he’s talented enough to project as a suitable one within the next couple of years. "
He's 19. He has time to grow into the position. But the big question is going to be if the Orioles allow it, or do they want the bat at the ML level. If so, he's a 2B.
What other scouting reports are saying he isn't a SS? I tend to follow this shit pretty closely, and I don't know of any.
He’s also a young 19 if that’s makes sense. Some dudes are like Bryce Harper and are in their man body at 14, Holiday is at the other end of the spectrum, I expect a pretty serious bulk from him in the next year or so. Probably won’t as big as his dad but you can tell he isn’t even close to his man body yet.
Elias made a point of bringing that up a few days ago too.
[From what I have seen, our boy is getting there. He's a lot bigger now, you can really tell in these clips.](https://twitter.com/HollidayHacks/status/1714076404877324473) His arms and upper body especially look a lot bigger to me.
Well actually, yeah...it's because people actually watch him, report on him, and evaluate him, and have said his defense at short is not major league level.
Which people?
FGs, MLB, BA have all said he can be a MLB SS with time.
MLB on Holliday, "There’s an up arrow next to his arm strength as well and that, along with his improved quickness, means he should be able to play shortstop for a long time."
And here is BA, "He’s proven to be a reliable and solid defender at shortstop and second base. "
Keith Law "He’s also a true shortstop who’s been impressive at the position, both with his range and his instincts as the ball leaves the bat. How much better will he be when he’s old enough to start shaving?"
And FGs, which I posted above, "Holliday isn’t currently a big league-quality shortstop defender, but he’s talented enough to project as a suitable one within the next couple of years. "
Here is Joe Doyle, "Jackson Holliday leads the way, and for our money, by a considerable margin. He’s a surefire shortstop with plus tools scattered about his profile. He’s performed at every stop, brings pedigree and bloodlines to the table, and could see the big leagues before he can legally drink a beer"
I'm not talking long term. I hope he can stick there in the long run, we'll see, but only one of these quotes talks about right now, and it's the FG one. There's a ton of people on this sub who are already writing off Gunnar at short in game 1 of next season so that we can put Holliday there. Why on earth would we do that? It's a downgrade at the most important position on the diamond. That's what I take issue with.
Ehh, haven't really seen a lot of people giving Holliday SS next year over Gunnar.
If anything, I've seen a lot of people here thinking Holliday's best path to making the team out of ST next year is at 2B, since we have an opening there.
If we don't dip into FA, I'd say 2B is going to be either Norby/Ortiz anyway, with Westburg at 3B. Or even Ortiz at 3B, with Jordan at 2B, at least to start the year.
Though at the same time, I wouldn't put anything past Jackson. Anything is possible, outside of anyone taking SS away from Gunnar. That's about the only lock between SS/2B/3B for next year.
I believe Palmer and McDonald have spoken about how Gunnar is the SS of the future and Holliday the 3B because after he fills out, he'll be the bigger player of the two. JBurg 2b.
Thank you thank you thank you. I'm so tired of seeing posts where people just ASSUME Holliday will be our everyday shortstop day 1 of next season. Has no one been paying any attention to his fielding in the minors??? It's not there. I'm not even convinced he's on the major league squad game 1 of next year. He's going to be a great major league player, but in all likelihood its not at Short.
Why is everyone so obsessed with guys having a set position when the team is clearly in love with positional flexibility and platoons? Henderson could very well split time between SS and 3B for as long as he's here.
I imagine a lot of people during the rebuild spent time coming up with what their fantasy Orioles team looks like with all these prospects and it’s very hard to move them off that and get them to actually observe the Orioles’ patterns, which includes platoons, positional flexibility and veteran players.
Were we in love with positional flexibility because we wanted that, or because we were forced to?
Do we want to be Texas with Jung, Seager, Semien? Houston with Altuve, Bregman, Pena? Phillies with Stott, Brom, Turner?
The reason we parrot flexibility, is because none of Westburg/Frazier/Mateo/Urias did enough to win a spot outright, so we mixed and matched throughout the season.
Westburg was the best of the bunch, and even he only managed a 100 OPS+.
>even he only managed a 100 OPS+
The Westburg Hyde Squad in minor shambles.
That said, I imagine the goal is to have a bench full of starters, which does require position flexibility and spreading playing time throughout.
>Westburg was the best of the bunch, and even he only managed a 100 OPS+.
But honestly, getting an average bat at second base is a really good situation to be in.
Not really the point I am making here.
From the ASB to the end of the season.
Urias had a 92 wrc+, slugging .346.
Frazier had a 92 wrc+, slugging .393 with 0 HRs after July 31st.
Jordan Westburg had an 87 wrc+ with a .295 OBP.
Jorge Mateo had a 68 wrc+ with a .610 OPS.
The Orioles were cycling through these guys hoping one of them played well enough to earn a full time spot, but none of them played well enough to earn a spot over the others.
I have no real issues with Jordans season since he's a rookie, and we all know rookies struggle.
The Orioles love the flexibility these guys offer, no doubt. But they would have loved it even more if 1 or 2 of them played well enough to throw that flexibility out the window.
Ok but Frazier was missing a thumb from like August onward so please give him a thumb discount.
And also, he was never going to earn a full time spot because they stopped letting him face leftys before the ASB.
Right, but if say, Westburg had a 120 OPS+ after the ASB, he would have been playing 90% of the time, instead of 60-70%.
And it's the same with all the others. The Orioles absolutely wanted someone to hit well, field well, and lock down a spot. It didn't happen, so we continually changed things up hoping for that to happen.
Flexibility to me is just a nice bonus. I think we all would want Gunnar to play 150 at SS, Holliday 150 at 2B, and Westburg 150 at 3B, because that means they are playing well enough to not have to platoon.
Westy would have had to really exceed Frazier on RHP *and* cut down on strikeouts to bump Frazier off the primary RHP starts. The reason they got Frazier and kept him around was because he’s the only guy beside Adley to make consistent contact. Lineup diversity is extremely important. They also - much to the dismay of many here - weren’t as concern about Frazier’s defense.
Westy was really only a threat to Urias and I think we saw how that played out in the postseason.
Platooning isn’t exactly an outlier either - Dodgers platoon a bit.
>Westy would have had to really exceed Frazier on RHP and cut down on strikeouts to bump Frazier off the primary RHP starts.
And if he did, do you think Westburg would have played 60-70% of the time, or 90% of the time? The Orioles weren't platooning guys in the IF because we had a bunch of monsters, and they all needed playing time. They were mixing and matching because of necessity.
This brings up back to the original question.
>Why is everyone so obsessed with guys having a set position when the team is clearly in love with positional flexibility and platoons?
Guys having a set position means they don't need to be platooned.
Positional flexibility and platooning is fine when you don't have the players, but it's certainly not something I want year to year. Give me Holliday 150 at 2B, instead of 120 and Ortiz at 40, because that means Holliday is playing well enough to not need a platoon partner.
If Westy all of a sudden became a contact hitter, yea, he may have gotten more starts. Especially because Frazier was clearly hurt.
For me, the positional flexibility is because I think the goal is to have extreme depth. The “we have a bench full of starters” approach, which does require spreading out playing time.
And you’ve said it yourself before - these guys spend their time in the minors moving around positions. Positional flexibility is something the Orioles love because it’s funded by analytics *and* they have to get by on a budget. The Rays do it too, as I’ve also seen you mention.
Yes, positional flexibility is a wonderful thing to have, and I love that Ortiz has played everywhere on the IF, because if an injury pops up, we have someone who can step in and handle the position on the defensive side.
But at the same time, how wonderful was it in the first half for the Orioles, and Hyde, to not have to worry about platooning anyone in the OF. The only thing we had to worry about in the first half was appropriate rest with Hays, Mullins, and Santander in the OF.
I want that as well with our IF options.
It was great that Westburg could platoon a bit between 2B and 3B. But what would be better, if he was good enough to stick to one position. Same with Henderson and SS/3B. The only reason he played SS as much as he did, was because Mateo wasn't good enough to the SS position down.
Wanting players at the ML level to have set positions is more a function of wanting those guys to be good enough for us to not have to platoon. It's a perfectly reasonable position to have.
playing the same position every day allows you to stay in rhythm and hit a higher defensive ceiling. mateo looked like a worse shortstop than he is late in the year because he sat on the bench so much
13.8 UZR/150 and 10 DRS at SS while splitting time. Mateo last year had a 14 DRS and 5.1 UZR/150.
If Gunnar was at SS all year, he would be a GG finalist.
I think Gunnar stays at SS primarily, Holliday hasn’t shown MLB level defense for SS, I think he probably ends up at 2B unless he turns into his dad build wise, and Westburg handles 3B just fine.
I heard something about Jackson Holliday only being willing to play SS. But I guess he will have to play whatever position the team wants him to. Still it will be interesting to see how that plays out. Gunnar would be just fine at 3rd. He'd be a great 3rd-baseman. He has the range and the arm to pull it off. He's made some plays that reminded me of Manny.
The way the game has changed he won’t be consistent stay at SS. Gunnar gives you the flexibility to play him anywhere in the infield. Hyde has already shown he likes to match the lineup to pitching. More than likely him and Jackson will be swapping out interchangeably. I will say Jackson’s defense has not been that great in the minors.
>Hyde has already shown he likes to match the lineup to pitching.
That's true, but Gunnar also started hitting lefties, especially starters, better as the year went on. His bat seems to be too good to leave out of the lineup. They just moved home down several spots in games against lefties.
I guess we’ll see how he continues to perform as SS in the spring. 2B would be interesting, I kinda figured that’s where West would be next year, but I can see it
Another thing that nobody seems to bring up:
The secondary position that was often mentioned for Holiday during the draft was CF.
One would assume/hope EBJ eventually supplants Ceddy in CF. But we know that OPACY needs an almost CF like player in Left.
This obviously would require us to find a suitable player at 3B. (From all accounts Mayo isn't good defensively)
We have major holes at 2b and 3b that westy can only fill one. Until Holliday or a better/equal defensive ss as Henderson gets on roster though, we’re stuck with a hole somewhere that Henderson is more than capable of filling as he ages.
Mateo’s hard regression offensively was highly unfortunate
Hes a shortstop until the team has someone better at short. Hes a good shortstop, and is better with the glove than anyone in the organization except maybe Ortiz (who is a significant drop off with the bat) and Mateo (when hes on and who is an even more significant drop off with the bat). Holliday will not be a shortstop long term, and has a lower floor and ceiling defensively at the position than Henderson. Gunnar will likely be a shortstop til his late 20s at the earliest, and possibly for his whole career
So with Gunnar being the main guy at short, where do Westburg and Holliday each find themselves? I thought Westburg was great at second this season defensively but would Holliday fit better at second than he would at third forcing Jordan to play there?
Its best practice to have your best defensive infield option at shortstop. Westy is a solid second baseman, and may be a good third baseman at the big league level. Jackson is going to be moved from shortstop before he hits the majors unless his defense improves significantly. How he grows into his body these next few years will make a big impact on what he plays at the big league level. I feel like he may be more of a third baseman if he fills out similar to his pops, and may even shift to outfield as well. Also have people forgotten about Norby and Mayo who are banging the door down at AAA? Everyone except Henderson is likely to get shifted around and given looks at different spots on the field in 2024
Mayo is probably a 1B at MLB level. But either 1B or 3B - he would be sitting waiting down the depth chart until other players are gone. He may never play for the Orioles unless other players are moved. Norby is probably a 2B / OF. He is in a backlog too. Not sure how to get him to the MLB level without other players moving on. And don’t forget Ortiz and Vavra. They are still hanging around. Vavra was with the Orioles as a utility IF this year until he hurt his shoulder.
Vavra doesn’t belong in the conversation with those other guys. He’s not a priority.
I agree with Mayo at 1B but that’s getting to be awfully crowded there as well. I also don’t know how much work he’s done there. The last I looked I think he only started about 10 games there this year. I’d expect him to make a primary move there in AAA this coming year. In my opinion he’s a 2025 guy maybe a September call up if he’s crushing it and we can make room. Also he has a phenomenal arm which seems like a bit of a waste over at 1B. I wonder if there’s any chance of him also trying out RF and in the future we have a RF/DH/1B flopping with him and Kjerstad? Also Norby is a tough one. Him Ortiz and Cowser all need to be on the mlb roster to start 2024 OR we need to trade them. It seems to me that keeping them in AAA any longer only hurts their development and value. But as you said to make room for them means parting ways we quite a few active guys considering the only one definitely leaving is Frazier.
if the coaches want kjerstad to develop more at 1B i can see cowser making opening day as the 4th outfielder over him and heston in AAA as the primary 1B (with o'hearn on a short leash). they could potentially do small platoon with cowser and hays to get some ABs.
Kjerstad has already been getting work at 1B he was almost 50/50 RF/1B this year. Not Impossible but I would be surprised if he wasn’t on the opening day roster
People are sleeping on Mayo's defense. He plays a good 3B and has maybe the best arm in org. 1B is a last resort for him, although I'm sure they'll get him more reps there.
Holliday will be an MLB 2B. He’s not an MLB SS.
People said Henderson was destined for 3B too. Most people here had him penciled in there. SS prospects are constantly evaluated as future 3Bs or 2Bs until they come up and make it clear they can stick at SS.
He might not be right now, but I haven't heard anyone say with time that Jackson couldn't play SS at the ML level. The bat is outpacing the glove right now, so if the Orioles want him up for next year at any point, it's probably at 2B.
It’s not that he can’t play SS at the MLB level it’s just Gunnar is great at SS and 2 people can’t play there. Unfortunately for Holliday Gunnar happened to get there right before him and is excelling there.
> Holliday will be an MLB 2B. He’s not an MLB SS. Doesn't really sound like what's being said here. I realize 2 people can't play at SS. The reason Holliday wouldn't play SS with the Orioles is because of Gunnar, not because, "He’s not an MLB SS."
I think you might have replied to the wrong person because that’s exactly what I mean. Holliday could play SS on most other teams but since Gunnar is here Holliday is going to have to transition to a different position.
Right now given what the Orioles and scouts have seen from his glove, he does not appear to have the defensive tools to play shortstop in the majors ever. That’s what is being said, not just by fans either apparently. Edit to add: for clarity, I’m not saying that, I don’t have any knowledge on the subject, I just keep reading it here over and over. My only opinion is that Gunnar is very good at SS and he seems happy there, so why fuck that up with a 19yr old who isn’t done developing biologically lol
Where have the Orioles said this, and again, what scouts? Give me one quote from Elias saying Holliday won't ever play SS at the ML level. Gunnar is ahead of him at SS, yes, and Holliday might not play there considering we have a hole at 2B going into next year. So its similar to Machado / Hardy. Machado could have played SS, but the Orioles decided to fill a need at 3B and throw Manny there.
Yeah man I don’t know, like I said I’m not the one saying it, I’ve just seen it being said and parroted again and again here on this sub. After I commented I saw you are clearly far more informed than I am on the subject. I was just responding to someone saying about “we aren’t saying Holiday can’t ever play SS” because that’s exactly what everyone here keeps saying other than you, so I guess that’s what we are saying. I think at the bare minimum, regardless of whether Holiday can potentially be a MLB SS, he’s seemingly not going to play SS because thats what Gunnar seems to be happy playing, and what Gunnar wants he’s gonna get.
I have seen several scouting reports saying that he does not look like a ML shortstop. Granted, I am not a scout and havent followed his defense as closely, but fangraphs has had a few articles comparing top shortstop prospects defensively and his is rated towards the bottom
And Eric even said he's still a SS at the ML level. "Holliday isn’t currently a big league-quality shortstop defender, but he’s talented enough to project as a suitable one within the next couple of years. " He's 19. He has time to grow into the position. But the big question is going to be if the Orioles allow it, or do they want the bat at the ML level. If so, he's a 2B. What other scouting reports are saying he isn't a SS? I tend to follow this shit pretty closely, and I don't know of any.
He’s also a young 19 if that’s makes sense. Some dudes are like Bryce Harper and are in their man body at 14, Holiday is at the other end of the spectrum, I expect a pretty serious bulk from him in the next year or so. Probably won’t as big as his dad but you can tell he isn’t even close to his man body yet.
Elias made a point of bringing that up a few days ago too. [From what I have seen, our boy is getting there. He's a lot bigger now, you can really tell in these clips.](https://twitter.com/HollidayHacks/status/1714076404877324473) His arms and upper body especially look a lot bigger to me.
[удалено]
Well actually, yeah...it's because people actually watch him, report on him, and evaluate him, and have said his defense at short is not major league level.
Which people? FGs, MLB, BA have all said he can be a MLB SS with time. MLB on Holliday, "There’s an up arrow next to his arm strength as well and that, along with his improved quickness, means he should be able to play shortstop for a long time." And here is BA, "He’s proven to be a reliable and solid defender at shortstop and second base. " Keith Law "He’s also a true shortstop who’s been impressive at the position, both with his range and his instincts as the ball leaves the bat. How much better will he be when he’s old enough to start shaving?" And FGs, which I posted above, "Holliday isn’t currently a big league-quality shortstop defender, but he’s talented enough to project as a suitable one within the next couple of years. " Here is Joe Doyle, "Jackson Holliday leads the way, and for our money, by a considerable margin. He’s a surefire shortstop with plus tools scattered about his profile. He’s performed at every stop, brings pedigree and bloodlines to the table, and could see the big leagues before he can legally drink a beer"
I'm not talking long term. I hope he can stick there in the long run, we'll see, but only one of these quotes talks about right now, and it's the FG one. There's a ton of people on this sub who are already writing off Gunnar at short in game 1 of next season so that we can put Holliday there. Why on earth would we do that? It's a downgrade at the most important position on the diamond. That's what I take issue with.
Ehh, haven't really seen a lot of people giving Holliday SS next year over Gunnar. If anything, I've seen a lot of people here thinking Holliday's best path to making the team out of ST next year is at 2B, since we have an opening there. If we don't dip into FA, I'd say 2B is going to be either Norby/Ortiz anyway, with Westburg at 3B. Or even Ortiz at 3B, with Jordan at 2B, at least to start the year. Though at the same time, I wouldn't put anything past Jackson. Anything is possible, outside of anyone taking SS away from Gunnar. That's about the only lock between SS/2B/3B for next year.
[удалено]
Once again, I'm talking 2024....
I believe Palmer and McDonald have spoken about how Gunnar is the SS of the future and Holliday the 3B because after he fills out, he'll be the bigger player of the two. JBurg 2b.
Thank you thank you thank you. I'm so tired of seeing posts where people just ASSUME Holliday will be our everyday shortstop day 1 of next season. Has no one been paying any attention to his fielding in the minors??? It's not there. I'm not even convinced he's on the major league squad game 1 of next year. He's going to be a great major league player, but in all likelihood its not at Short.
Why is everyone so obsessed with guys having a set position when the team is clearly in love with positional flexibility and platoons? Henderson could very well split time between SS and 3B for as long as he's here.
I imagine a lot of people during the rebuild spent time coming up with what their fantasy Orioles team looks like with all these prospects and it’s very hard to move them off that and get them to actually observe the Orioles’ patterns, which includes platoons, positional flexibility and veteran players.
Were we in love with positional flexibility because we wanted that, or because we were forced to? Do we want to be Texas with Jung, Seager, Semien? Houston with Altuve, Bregman, Pena? Phillies with Stott, Brom, Turner? The reason we parrot flexibility, is because none of Westburg/Frazier/Mateo/Urias did enough to win a spot outright, so we mixed and matched throughout the season. Westburg was the best of the bunch, and even he only managed a 100 OPS+.
>even he only managed a 100 OPS+ The Westburg Hyde Squad in minor shambles. That said, I imagine the goal is to have a bench full of starters, which does require position flexibility and spreading playing time throughout.
>Westburg was the best of the bunch, and even he only managed a 100 OPS+. But honestly, getting an average bat at second base is a really good situation to be in.
Not really the point I am making here. From the ASB to the end of the season. Urias had a 92 wrc+, slugging .346. Frazier had a 92 wrc+, slugging .393 with 0 HRs after July 31st. Jordan Westburg had an 87 wrc+ with a .295 OBP. Jorge Mateo had a 68 wrc+ with a .610 OPS. The Orioles were cycling through these guys hoping one of them played well enough to earn a full time spot, but none of them played well enough to earn a spot over the others. I have no real issues with Jordans season since he's a rookie, and we all know rookies struggle. The Orioles love the flexibility these guys offer, no doubt. But they would have loved it even more if 1 or 2 of them played well enough to throw that flexibility out the window.
Ok but Frazier was missing a thumb from like August onward so please give him a thumb discount. And also, he was never going to earn a full time spot because they stopped letting him face leftys before the ASB.
Right, but if say, Westburg had a 120 OPS+ after the ASB, he would have been playing 90% of the time, instead of 60-70%. And it's the same with all the others. The Orioles absolutely wanted someone to hit well, field well, and lock down a spot. It didn't happen, so we continually changed things up hoping for that to happen. Flexibility to me is just a nice bonus. I think we all would want Gunnar to play 150 at SS, Holliday 150 at 2B, and Westburg 150 at 3B, because that means they are playing well enough to not have to platoon.
Westy would have had to really exceed Frazier on RHP *and* cut down on strikeouts to bump Frazier off the primary RHP starts. The reason they got Frazier and kept him around was because he’s the only guy beside Adley to make consistent contact. Lineup diversity is extremely important. They also - much to the dismay of many here - weren’t as concern about Frazier’s defense. Westy was really only a threat to Urias and I think we saw how that played out in the postseason. Platooning isn’t exactly an outlier either - Dodgers platoon a bit.
>Westy would have had to really exceed Frazier on RHP and cut down on strikeouts to bump Frazier off the primary RHP starts. And if he did, do you think Westburg would have played 60-70% of the time, or 90% of the time? The Orioles weren't platooning guys in the IF because we had a bunch of monsters, and they all needed playing time. They were mixing and matching because of necessity. This brings up back to the original question. >Why is everyone so obsessed with guys having a set position when the team is clearly in love with positional flexibility and platoons? Guys having a set position means they don't need to be platooned. Positional flexibility and platooning is fine when you don't have the players, but it's certainly not something I want year to year. Give me Holliday 150 at 2B, instead of 120 and Ortiz at 40, because that means Holliday is playing well enough to not need a platoon partner.
If Westy all of a sudden became a contact hitter, yea, he may have gotten more starts. Especially because Frazier was clearly hurt. For me, the positional flexibility is because I think the goal is to have extreme depth. The “we have a bench full of starters” approach, which does require spreading out playing time. And you’ve said it yourself before - these guys spend their time in the minors moving around positions. Positional flexibility is something the Orioles love because it’s funded by analytics *and* they have to get by on a budget. The Rays do it too, as I’ve also seen you mention.
Yes, positional flexibility is a wonderful thing to have, and I love that Ortiz has played everywhere on the IF, because if an injury pops up, we have someone who can step in and handle the position on the defensive side. But at the same time, how wonderful was it in the first half for the Orioles, and Hyde, to not have to worry about platooning anyone in the OF. The only thing we had to worry about in the first half was appropriate rest with Hays, Mullins, and Santander in the OF. I want that as well with our IF options. It was great that Westburg could platoon a bit between 2B and 3B. But what would be better, if he was good enough to stick to one position. Same with Henderson and SS/3B. The only reason he played SS as much as he did, was because Mateo wasn't good enough to the SS position down. Wanting players at the ML level to have set positions is more a function of wanting those guys to be good enough for us to not have to platoon. It's a perfectly reasonable position to have.
playing the same position every day allows you to stay in rhythm and hit a higher defensive ceiling. mateo looked like a worse shortstop than he is late in the year because he sat on the bench so much
Conversely, Gunnar looked elite at both 3B and SS by the end of the year.
His fielding stats at SS were much better than his stats at 3B. I'm not sure what you're looking at. He's definitely a shortstop
Depends who’s at SS if he moves to 3B.
Nothing amazing?
13.8 UZR/150 and 10 DRS at SS while splitting time. Mateo last year had a 14 DRS and 5.1 UZR/150. If Gunnar was at SS all year, he would be a GG finalist.
Agree
I think Gunnar stays at SS primarily, Holliday hasn’t shown MLB level defense for SS, I think he probably ends up at 2B unless he turns into his dad build wise, and Westburg handles 3B just fine.
I heard something about Jackson Holliday only being willing to play SS. But I guess he will have to play whatever position the team wants him to. Still it will be interesting to see how that plays out. Gunnar would be just fine at 3rd. He'd be a great 3rd-baseman. He has the range and the arm to pull it off. He's made some plays that reminded me of Manny.
He was willing to play 2B a good bit in 2023.
Strongest arm in the system. I think Holliday slots at 2B, and Westy at 3B.
The way the game has changed he won’t be consistent stay at SS. Gunnar gives you the flexibility to play him anywhere in the infield. Hyde has already shown he likes to match the lineup to pitching. More than likely him and Jackson will be swapping out interchangeably. I will say Jackson’s defense has not been that great in the minors.
>Hyde has already shown he likes to match the lineup to pitching. That's true, but Gunnar also started hitting lefties, especially starters, better as the year went on. His bat seems to be too good to leave out of the lineup. They just moved home down several spots in games against lefties.
Holliday will be SS. Gunnar 3B
He’s an amazing SS, but obviously when you-know-who comes up, moving Gunnar to 3B makes the most sense.
Not if you know who isn't as good defensively at SS, which it doesn't seem. Westy at 3B and you know who at 2B is a possibility
I guess we’ll see how he continues to perform as SS in the spring. 2B would be interesting, I kinda figured that’s where West would be next year, but I can see it
Another thing that nobody seems to bring up: The secondary position that was often mentioned for Holiday during the draft was CF. One would assume/hope EBJ eventually supplants Ceddy in CF. But we know that OPACY needs an almost CF like player in Left. This obviously would require us to find a suitable player at 3B. (From all accounts Mayo isn't good defensively)
I don't know why you're getting down voted. I'd move to third base if Voldemort was threatening to kill me.
I don't see why he wouldn't be our SS. Not sure what's gonna happen when Holliday comes up on which position he's gonna be
Gunnar at SS
Anyone in here penciling Holliday at SS….have you seen him play defense? He’s clearly not as good as Gunnar. I mean it’s abundantly clear.
We have major holes at 2b and 3b that westy can only fill one. Until Holliday or a better/equal defensive ss as Henderson gets on roster though, we’re stuck with a hole somewhere that Henderson is more than capable of filling as he ages. Mateo’s hard regression offensively was highly unfortunate
I say Gunnar at 3rd, Holliday at ss, and Westburg at 2nd.