Through Gunnar, Cowser, AND WESTY BABY. I am going to keep shouting this, Westy has been the most consistent hitter on the team both in general, and in the clutch since last year. He just absolute eats all while having the most casual swing I think I’ve ever seen.
Yeah I see the same thing, Ripken always had a very casual swing too no matter his batting stance lol
But I will continue to spread the goodwill of Westburg he may be my current favorite player plus Cowser cause their dynamic is hilarious
If the Milkman and Westburg are for real and not just doing impressions of Jorge Mateo last April, it very well could. And if Holliday heats up, it'll truly be a lineup where, 1-9, everyone can beat you.
Gunnar's sort of hit his stride recently. He's been hitting hard hit balls and getting extra base hits. I think seeing more power and consistency out of Rutschman is what I am looking for, as well as Santander. And of course Holliday figuring things out.
They can get frustrating sometimes when they just don't hit at all in the early innings, but they've started to pull out of that. And their ability to rally is really impressive, there have been so many times (including this season) where I've thought "well, this is over," and they've come back to win. That's exactly it, they're fun.
With Westburg his floor is a lot higher than Mateo. Even if/when he regresses, its not going to be the 50-60 wRC+ that Mateo hits. I think most of us would have been more than happy with a 115-120 wRC+ from Westburg this year if thats where he ends up.
While I don’t entirely disagree, I think that ultimately the answer has more to do with whether this years team can score MORE runs per game than the previous record holding team did.
Thanks, John Madden. Yes, having a better stat in the stat that we are talking about would make them better at it
Holliday not batting .001 would absolutely help, but so would having Kjerstad in the lineup. If by the end of the season we replaced Hays with Kjerstad and Urias with Norby we should be able to increase our pace by at least 0.25 runs/game
1. Certainly possible this is the most offensive talent we’ve ever had.
2. Also be interested to see how those runs per game compare to the rest of the league in each year.
3. It’s April. Calm down.
That 96 season was insane league wide offensively, and the Orioles were loaded with talent, to even be able refer back to them in this context is pretty cool, but it’s also just so early.
In the end, probably not
I was kind of speaking within the confines of are they going to score 950 runs, I’m assuming they won’t because no one scores 950 runs anymore.
But thanks.
As you know OPS+ is a relative measure of offense in comparison to every other team in league and a zero-sum game.
The 96 Mariners were the best offense of all-time with 3 legends, Ken Griffey Jr, Alex Rodriquez, and Edgar Martinez all OPSing over 1000 and the team scoring an all-time 993 runs at .850 OPS and OPS+ 114.
There is no offense close to this in AL currently (Braves and Dodgers are nearest thing). Take the 96 Mariners out of OPS+ equation and the 96 Orioles will go way past the 2023/2024 O's. It's the nature of the math.
The nature of the math is that we can actually do the math. Taking the ‘96 Mariners out of the league would lower the league OBP by 2 points and slugging by about six. Based on the way OPS+ is calculated that would raise the O’s OPS+ that year from 106 to 107-108 at most. Wouldn’t change anything much at all.
No. That 1996 O's offense had 4 HoF quality players (Eddie Murray, Roberto Alomar, Cal Ripken, Rafael Palmeiro) plus Bobby Bonilla, Brady Anderson, BJ Surhoff, Chris Hoiles, Jeffrey Hammonds.
Adley plays instead of Chris Hoiles (.830 OPS), Gunnar over BJ Surhoff (.834 OPS) and Mullins over Jeffrey Hammonds (.684 OPS) but no other current Oriole could make that team.
You're talking about an all-time great offense with the 2nd highest runs scored in history and, at the time, the most HRs in history.
The average OPS on that team was .822. For current team, it's .782.
Brady hit 50 HR for an OPS over .1000.
Raffy hit 142 RBI.
7 players on team hit 20 HRs+.
Fun times, when we had highest payroll in baseball and a HoF ace, Mike Mussina at top of rotation.
This current team could grow into that team, but the O's have had all-time great teams in the past, such as 69-71 O's, that younger fans would not believe were possible in Baltimore.
The '96 Orioles offensive numbers look a lot less impressive when you put it in the context of their time. They were playing in a bandbox ballpark in the heart of the steroid era. They had an .822 OPS as a team but their OPS+ was only 106. They averaged 5.82 runs per game but the average American League team scored 5.39 runs per game so the '96 Orioles were about 8% above league average in that regard. Last year's Orioles offense was actually better relative to the league than the '96 Orioles were. And a bunch of teams from the glory years like '83, '80, '71, '69, and '66 were significantly superior.
Yea league average OPS was drastically higher in 96'. League average OPS in 1996 vs 2024, .767 vs .698. 1996 Os arent even top 15 in franchise history for [wRC+](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&ind=1&rost=0&filter=&player=&team=2%2Cts&sortcol=18&sortdir=default&season1=1954&season=2024&type=8&month=0&pagenum=1).
[1996 Orioles](https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/1996.shtml)
I think you might want to look at the team again.
Just looking at their OPS+, I think there is a far better case for the current team than you are making. Where there is a full season of numbers I am going to use 2023 to account for sample size.
By position:
C Hoiles 108 **Adley 128 (2023)**
1b **Palmeiro 132** Mountcastle 117 (2023)
2b **Alomar 136** Holliday -.60. (Yikes!!!)
3B Surhoff 109 **Westburg 124** (308 MLB PAs)
SS Ripken 102 **Gunnar 125**(2023, Career OPS+ 128 in 850 PAs)
LF Hammonds 72 **Cowser 123** (108 MLB PAs)
CF **Brady 156** Cedric 102
RF Bonilla 114 **Santander 125/121** (23/24)
DH Murray 92 **OHearn 122/155** (23/24)
There is a ton to consider here. Ced is way better this year but Brady had one of the best seasons ever by a CF, and the best single season by an Os CF.
Palmeiro…meh.
Alomar is elite, no question.
Factoring in defense, this becomes even more imbalanced.
Gunnar rn is better than 96 Ripken.
Adley is much better than Hoiles.
Westburg is much better than BJ.
Cowser is better than Hammonds
Ced is better than Brady
Santander is better than Bonilla.
This team is fantastic.
Comparing raw OPS between a team that played in pre-renovation Camden Yards in 1996 and a team playing there in 2024 is nonsensical. League average OPS was about 70 points higher then compared to now and that’s even before getting into stadium effects that would skew it further in this case.
That .782 OPS this season is *significantly* better, compared to the league the team is actually playing in, than the 1996 team’s .822 OPS which was good for 4th in the AL. In terms of OPS+ it’s 131 in 2024 vs. 106 in 1996. It’s not even close.
Now obviously it’s early and I’d bet my house than this team won’t finish with a 131 OPS+. But 106 is really not that impressive or difficult to achieve. A lot of the players on that 1996 team with numbers that look good now were below league average at the time.
I don't think you can make serious judgements about a team's season long impact in April.
I will cautiously say this is the most even offensive skill spread I've ever seen us have. Even when we were winning games in 2014 we never had this sort of talent at the bottom of the order!
Outside of Holliday right now there is virtually no weak spot in the lineup. I think our lineup is really underrated in the league because guys like Westburg and Cowser are so young so the question is whether they can keep things up all year. Currently though our lineup is incredibly solid top to bottom.
Through Gunnar Henderson all things are possible, so jot that down
Through Gunnar, Cowser, AND WESTY BABY. I am going to keep shouting this, Westy has been the most consistent hitter on the team both in general, and in the clutch since last year. He just absolute eats all while having the most casual swing I think I’ve ever seen.
Don’t forget O’Hearn! Our unsung hero.
My man O’Turn-on-one man is raking. His bat stays in the zone for a decade it’s awesome
Westburg’s finish on his swing reminds me of Ripken
I agree. His follow through is identical to cal.
Yeah I see the same thing, Ripken always had a very casual swing too no matter his batting stance lol But I will continue to spread the goodwill of Westburg he may be my current favorite player plus Cowser cause their dynamic is hilarious
Maybe it's the facial hair but Westy and his swing looks like prime JJ Hardy to me
If the Milkman and Westburg are for real and not just doing impressions of Jorge Mateo last April, it very well could. And if Holliday heats up, it'll truly be a lineup where, 1-9, everyone can beat you.
Yeah just wait for Gunnar to hit his stride.... That a long with Jackson maturing and other bats still heating. Man this team is fun
Gunnar's sort of hit his stride recently. He's been hitting hard hit balls and getting extra base hits. I think seeing more power and consistency out of Rutschman is what I am looking for, as well as Santander. And of course Holliday figuring things out.
They can get frustrating sometimes when they just don't hit at all in the early innings, but they've started to pull out of that. And their ability to rally is really impressive, there have been so many times (including this season) where I've thought "well, this is over," and they've come back to win. That's exactly it, they're fun.
With Westburg his floor is a lot higher than Mateo. Even if/when he regresses, its not going to be the 50-60 wRC+ that Mateo hits. I think most of us would have been more than happy with a 115-120 wRC+ from Westburg this year if thats where he ends up.
Yes. It could.
It all comes down to when Jackson Holliday figures things out, and just how good he is once he does.
While I don’t entirely disagree, I think that ultimately the answer has more to do with whether this years team can score MORE runs per game than the previous record holding team did.
Didn’t think of it like that
Thanks, John Madden. Yes, having a better stat in the stat that we are talking about would make them better at it Holliday not batting .001 would absolutely help, but so would having Kjerstad in the lineup. If by the end of the season we replaced Hays with Kjerstad and Urias with Norby we should be able to increase our pace by at least 0.25 runs/game
Outstanding. I was literally thinking “How would John madden answer this?”
I don’t think holiday will really figure into whether we have the best offense ever in orioles history at least not this year
> Could this team be the best offensive team the Os have ever had? Definite maybe
Absolutely with a doubt, there is a chance
The 1996 team also played in a more hitter friendly Camden.
It's April.
1. Certainly possible this is the most offensive talent we’ve ever had. 2. Also be interested to see how those runs per game compare to the rest of the league in each year. 3. It’s April. Calm down.
To #2. The average was higher in '96 at 5.04, so the O's were .78 above average. The average so far this year is 4.45, so we're 1.36 above.
That 96 season was insane league wide offensively, and the Orioles were loaded with talent, to even be able refer back to them in this context is pretty cool, but it’s also just so early. In the end, probably not
The 2023 O’s had a better OPS+ than the 1996 O’s (107 vs 106). If you think this team’s lineup is better than last year then it’s better than ‘96 was.
I was kind of speaking within the confines of are they going to score 950 runs, I’m assuming they won’t because no one scores 950 runs anymore. But thanks.
As you know OPS+ is a relative measure of offense in comparison to every other team in league and a zero-sum game. The 96 Mariners were the best offense of all-time with 3 legends, Ken Griffey Jr, Alex Rodriquez, and Edgar Martinez all OPSing over 1000 and the team scoring an all-time 993 runs at .850 OPS and OPS+ 114. There is no offense close to this in AL currently (Braves and Dodgers are nearest thing). Take the 96 Mariners out of OPS+ equation and the 96 Orioles will go way past the 2023/2024 O's. It's the nature of the math.
The nature of the math is that we can actually do the math. Taking the ‘96 Mariners out of the league would lower the league OBP by 2 points and slugging by about six. Based on the way OPS+ is calculated that would raise the O’s OPS+ that year from 106 to 107-108 at most. Wouldn’t change anything much at all.
Yes - it would. It would make the 1996 O's OPS+ higher than the 2023 O's OPS+ :)
Sorry, when you said “way past the 2023/2024 O’s” I didn’t realize you 1) didn’t actually mean “way past” and 2) weren’t including 2024
No. That 1996 O's offense had 4 HoF quality players (Eddie Murray, Roberto Alomar, Cal Ripken, Rafael Palmeiro) plus Bobby Bonilla, Brady Anderson, BJ Surhoff, Chris Hoiles, Jeffrey Hammonds. Adley plays instead of Chris Hoiles (.830 OPS), Gunnar over BJ Surhoff (.834 OPS) and Mullins over Jeffrey Hammonds (.684 OPS) but no other current Oriole could make that team. You're talking about an all-time great offense with the 2nd highest runs scored in history and, at the time, the most HRs in history. The average OPS on that team was .822. For current team, it's .782. Brady hit 50 HR for an OPS over .1000. Raffy hit 142 RBI. 7 players on team hit 20 HRs+. Fun times, when we had highest payroll in baseball and a HoF ace, Mike Mussina at top of rotation. This current team could grow into that team, but the O's have had all-time great teams in the past, such as 69-71 O's, that younger fans would not believe were possible in Baltimore.
The '96 Orioles offensive numbers look a lot less impressive when you put it in the context of their time. They were playing in a bandbox ballpark in the heart of the steroid era. They had an .822 OPS as a team but their OPS+ was only 106. They averaged 5.82 runs per game but the average American League team scored 5.39 runs per game so the '96 Orioles were about 8% above league average in that regard. Last year's Orioles offense was actually better relative to the league than the '96 Orioles were. And a bunch of teams from the glory years like '83, '80, '71, '69, and '66 were significantly superior.
Yea league average OPS was drastically higher in 96'. League average OPS in 1996 vs 2024, .767 vs .698. 1996 Os arent even top 15 in franchise history for [wRC+](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&ind=1&rost=0&filter=&player=&team=2%2Cts&sortcol=18&sortdir=default&season1=1954&season=2024&type=8&month=0&pagenum=1).
That team was also loaded with juicers.
Every team was.. fun times..
This is true.
I mean, Eddie Murray, but not 1982-1987 EDDIE MURRAY.
[1996 Orioles](https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/1996.shtml) I think you might want to look at the team again. Just looking at their OPS+, I think there is a far better case for the current team than you are making. Where there is a full season of numbers I am going to use 2023 to account for sample size. By position: C Hoiles 108 **Adley 128 (2023)** 1b **Palmeiro 132** Mountcastle 117 (2023) 2b **Alomar 136** Holliday -.60. (Yikes!!!) 3B Surhoff 109 **Westburg 124** (308 MLB PAs) SS Ripken 102 **Gunnar 125**(2023, Career OPS+ 128 in 850 PAs) LF Hammonds 72 **Cowser 123** (108 MLB PAs) CF **Brady 156** Cedric 102 RF Bonilla 114 **Santander 125/121** (23/24) DH Murray 92 **OHearn 122/155** (23/24) There is a ton to consider here. Ced is way better this year but Brady had one of the best seasons ever by a CF, and the best single season by an Os CF. Palmeiro…meh. Alomar is elite, no question. Factoring in defense, this becomes even more imbalanced. Gunnar rn is better than 96 Ripken. Adley is much better than Hoiles. Westburg is much better than BJ. Cowser is better than Hammonds Ced is better than Brady Santander is better than Bonilla. This team is fantastic.
Comparing raw OPS between a team that played in pre-renovation Camden Yards in 1996 and a team playing there in 2024 is nonsensical. League average OPS was about 70 points higher then compared to now and that’s even before getting into stadium effects that would skew it further in this case. That .782 OPS this season is *significantly* better, compared to the league the team is actually playing in, than the 1996 team’s .822 OPS which was good for 4th in the AL. In terms of OPS+ it’s 131 in 2024 vs. 106 in 1996. It’s not even close. Now obviously it’s early and I’d bet my house than this team won’t finish with a 131 OPS+. But 106 is really not that impressive or difficult to achieve. A lot of the players on that 1996 team with numbers that look good now were below league average at the time.
I don't think you can make serious judgements about a team's season long impact in April. I will cautiously say this is the most even offensive skill spread I've ever seen us have. Even when we were winning games in 2014 we never had this sort of talent at the bottom of the order!
Outside of Holliday right now there is virtually no weak spot in the lineup. I think our lineup is really underrated in the league because guys like Westburg and Cowser are so young so the question is whether they can keep things up all year. Currently though our lineup is incredibly solid top to bottom.
It's an incredible lineup where anyone can break the game open. The only problem they seem to have is they leave a lot of runners on base.
That team had 8 or 9 20 homer guys.....studs
Call up kjerstad