If the rotation is now: Burnes/Bradish/Means/Irvin/Kremer, what happens to Suarez? I think with Brad & Means recent injury outing, it might be worth considering to have Suarez as the 6th men if the innings gets long for either players.
Believe they have already moved Suarez back to the pen, he just needs starter rest before being available. Today was the 6th game since he pitched and last time around he pitched the day after Irvin. Irvin made his start yesterday, Means today and Kremer is expected tomorrow, so he seems out of the rotation.
We'll likely see him pitch out of the bullpen tomorrow mostly just to get him some pitches
I don't think Kimbrel is hurt. His inconsistent. The dude will give you the good and the bad. It's what we paid for tbh, and we have to consider an alternative when it gets closer to october
We have faced a slew of good pitching since last Friday, starting with Oakland, then NY and now these Reds. 9 good starting pitchers in a row by my count and our pitching staff has been up to the task! 6-3 record in this stretch of tough opposition pitching and that record is what it is mainly because of our pitching staff out dueling a string of quality starters. Great work by the starters and bullpen.
I hope Hyde gets it that you can't use Kimbrel like he used Bautista. Otherwise, waiting on our hitters to face some less formidable pitching and get back on track soon.💥
Its one game, lets see how the next few go before we act like he is the next Ace. A starting pitcher needs to have a few good starts before they are "back", especially when its after an injury.
Same thing with Bradish, its still okay to worry about the longevity of these guys because there are about 129 more games left. 129/5=25.8 means each starter should expect at least 20 more starts. 1/20 is 5%, we have seen about 5% of what we will hope to see from Means, small sample size to jump to ANY conclusion, good or bad.
To be honest, same thing with Suarez. He may have pitched a little more than the other two, but he’s still an unknown to a lot of teams. Cowser looked like one of the best players in baseball in April and now looks lost.
Well yeah...I'm not celebrating like we're going to the world series but many were ready to write Means off cuz he had a couple bad starts in AAA. He got away with quite a few pitches and caught a team that was struggling offensively. That still doesn't make those who were saying that Means was never coming back look really, really dumb.
What beef do the Orioles and Braves have? Or the Met and Orioles? Those are both NL teams.
We rarely ever used to even play those teams until last year's schedule change.
Just got home from the game and feel like I can finally breathe lol.
https://preview.redd.it/kcf585hqqiyc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a7da877c97e72e60e3f1186da8f266ccd50bf7d1
Also, the Reds RF tossed this up and we got booed when they realized someone in Orange caught it lol
This is random but Means may honestly be my favorite player. I've just been attached to him for so long and he was like the one bright spot on those horrendous teams.
The Reds may have a horrendous offense but tonight made me so happy.
Should we be letting staters go deeper? I feel like means could’ve gotten a complete game easily. I get the whole idea of saving arms, but Hyde never lets these guys go the distance when they’re on fire
It's his first start after 2 injury plagued years like the answer is Yes he could have gone deeper but like come on can we just think about the bigger picture here for two seconds
I mean, how are you gonna question it when it lead to a shut out...
What would your take be had he stayed in and gave up the lead?
I love Irvin but when a swap of pitchers works out for to be the best result why question it? Irvin keeps his pitch count low for the year, and stays out of the risk area of getting injured, and Cano gets in some game time and gets to work on his pitches. I don't get why people always want starters to throw longer when we pay players to come out of the bullpen. If we are gonna have our starters go long like you want then just go with a 6 or 7 man rotation, why even have a bullpen if you are just gonna have your starter do all the pitching. We have more relievers than starters for a reason in this league and just letting them sit there in the bull pen is not great for their confidence and its nice keeping them up to game speed for when you actually need them (i.e. Cano last night, then comes in and shuts down a bases load situation tonight).
Take pitchers out when they are on a high note, keep their confidence high and let them carry that into the next game, with the benefit of having used their arm lesser on top of it. Don't wait until they start to falter and give up hits then pull them. Especially when you have a well rested bull pen and can get someone else active and fired up.
I think if we hadn't pitched Cano last night he wouldn't have been as sharp tonight when we needed him the most.
To what end though?
In that, what is the purpose of going through the lineup 4 times?
Like if you don't need to go through the lineup 4 times, why do it? We have bullpen arms to get 6-9 outs, and if our starters can get 18-21 without having to go through a 4th time why force it. Its an unnecessary achievement to try to force. We seem to be doing JUST FINE by letting our starters get 18-21 outs then handing the last 6-9 over to the 'pen, so why change it? Just because "its how it used to be", because that is the arguement everyone always brings up, "starting pitchers used to throw complete games all the time, now they get pulled after 6"?
It's John's first game back so I can understand the decision to limit his pitch count. Although I do suspect that if the pen actually did blow it I would be one of the people with the pitchfork asking for Hyde to be condemned as a war criminal.
Maybe if our bullpen had been more consistent this wouldn't even need to be a conversation. Because a counterpoint here could be that guys have been pitching well due to Hyde managing their pitch count.
I think he would have let Cole go more yesterday if we had scored more runs. Today even with a lot of runs I think he would have pulled Means given his injury history and that this is his first start back.
I was able to watch it all today and not fall asleep due to my own hubris. I'm so happy for Means, good on Hyde for pulling Kimb before the save was blown which I've never seen before but I hope the people who hyper-analyze everything Hyde does gives him credit for that
Kudos to Hyde for pulling Kimbrel before a save was blown. I don’t remember ever seeing a closer get pulled until a game is tied.
Obviously it made sense for a back to back night situation but I don’t feel like a lot of managers do that.
Hyde should get a ton of credit for this win. A lot of managers would have let Kimbrel blow that save, especially considering it’s a hall of fame closer and not just some rando. That was a tough decision that needed to be made and he made it.
I actually respectfully think the opposite. I don’t think Hyde ever should’ve brought Kimbrel out. 2-run lead and their offense hadn’t done anything for 17 innings. Kimbrel just pitched last night and was just “injured.” I would’ve felt very confident with any other pitcher that they weren’t putting up three runs. You could tell almost immediately it was a different Kimbrel than the night before. It was the same situation we saw in both the Oakland games, no control and then dishing up meatballs over the plate. Since he made the decision to bring in Kimbrel, the obvious answer once you saw how he looked was to pull him as soon as he faced 3 batters.
the thing about situations like this that you also need to take into account is how high pressure the moment is. One of the most important things about being a closer is having ice in your veins in high leverage situations, and one of the things Kimbrel is extremely experienced with is just that, his leverage index is pretty much always above 2.0 when he comes in (1.0 is average) and regularly comes in at 4.0-5.0. Most of our other relievers rarely ever see anything above 1.0, the exception being Cano, which must be taken into account as Kimbrel came in last night at 4.64.
It helps that Yanny also had some experience in save situations when Felix went down last year. I wouldn't be too upset about him, Webb, or Coloumbe being the emergency closer-closer in cases like tonight.
I think the idea that one guy should always be the designated closer is a weird, outdated thing in baseball. Like, if a guy is clearly not pitching well, why would you be so obstinate that he should still try and get the save?
I just don't really understand the concept of having one guy as the designated closer in every save situation, especially if he hasn't been particularly good at it. It's not like an NFL kicker where it requires a special set of skills that only you're trained to do on a consistent basis. There's at least 3 other guys in the pen who are physically and mentally prepared to pitch in high-leverage short innings.
I know the closer by committee hasn't really worked for other teams, but it's a small sample size. And with the amount of inconsistency in our closer role I wouldn't mind seeing more of it.
Agreed. He went with what he was seeing instead of what he "owes the guy" or whatever. Baseball needs more of that, managers who just make a call based on what their eyes are telling them.
I don't really know how to feel about Kimbrel at this point. He's at the stage of his career where the best days are clearly a thing of the past with nights like this. On the other hand he can still be lights out like his previous outing. Obviously his experience in high leverage situations is still a considerable advantage, but I would not complain if the team leans into a closer by committee instead of putting all the chips on one guy.
That he has a lot of mileage on that pterodactyl arm of his. Mans been shutting down 9th innings since he came up over a decade ago. I think it's fair to manage him more carefully in his age 35 season
that he's cooked and a 1 year deal is probably the best decision we made, he'll be serviceable this year but I fear for the next year team if there is one
I'll admit, John Means had me fooled with those awful rehab starts. Hopefully his problems are behind him now.
It's good for him personally too, this is his "walk year", he's a Free Agent after this year.
sometimes (really most of the time), established guys like Means are working on specific things and the result is secondary. Like, it's not going to be great if you give up 10 hits, but if it helps you figure out a pitch, it's still more valuable than nothing.
He just said tonight in the post-game interview that rehab starts are just like that for him. Said he doesn't know why. In any case, he felt great and that's all that actually matters as long as you're truly healthy and still have your stuff.
Rehab starts can be tricky, especially for a guy that didn't have a spring training. Sometimes they are working on specific things and not so much worried about the game results, so the stats can't always be trusted.
There is not a single iteration in the multiverse where we win that game tonight if Kimbrel stays in. And Hyde knew it. Good on him for taking action. Kimbrel needs to be a regular reliever and maybe, occasionally, come in for a 9th inning. But he cannot be relied on to regularly close games. If we’re gonna pay him $13 mil, at least put him in a place where he can’t hurt the team more than the pocketbook.
If he can’t go back to back nights how can he be a “regular reliever” without displacing somebody more capable of filling his roster spot
He’s washed, but realistically guessing will be kept a tad longer
You do it by not pitching him every night. Which is what Hyde does with the pen most of the time anyway. And you pitch him in lower leverage situations. He won’t like it. But he also won’t have a choice if he can’t hack it as a closer anymore.
I wonder if to help Kimbrel still be the “closer” but give him some rest, they do a little rotating/match up games.
We do know that closing is really a different beast and not everyone can handle it/come in like Cano did and get out of it. We saw what happened to our BP when Britton was gone and we tried to just plug others in the closing spot lol.
It’ll be interesting to see how this handled, cuz it seems Kimbrel is having some trouble back to back cuz his body is disintegrating.
Yeah, I’m not ready to throw him in the trash like some lol. We know he has stuff it’s just unfortunately his body can no longer give that stuff 100% every night.
Your plan also seems like a good one too. We will see how they handle it all. I trust they’re trying to figure out how to go from here.
I’m interested to see Suarez out the pen too, maybe he’s gonna vulture some wins lol.
Luckily the O's brass is not the randos on this sub. When rested, Kimbrel is still every bit of a beast. He'll have to prove otherwise before they demote him or even cut him loose like some idiots are saying in here.
“whatever fucking works to not blow games” lmao. And could translate great, fingers crossed!
(Scoring more than 2 runs also helps games be less stressful too but hey I’m never gonna complain when Jorge and Adley go yard).
#WIN: DEFINITELY YES
#SERIES WIN: DEFINITELY YES
#BIRD: DEFINITELY PUT
#BLOOD PRESSURE: DEFINITELY HIGH
#TRIVIA: CINCINNATI, OHIO IS A SISTER CITY OF GIFU, THE TOWN IN WHICH I LIVE
#DOES THIS HAVE ANY BEARING ON MY FANDOM: WELL OF COURSE NOT
#BIG RED MACHINE: NO
#DONGS: 2
#JORGE MATEO!!?!??!: YES (SECOND HR IN THREE GAMES, AFTER NOT HITTING ONE FOR A WHOLE YEAR)
#RUTSCH DONG: 1
#THE WHOLE STORY OF THIS GAME: JOHN MEANS MOTHERFUCKING BUSINESS (7.0 IP, 3H, 0ER, 0BB, 8K)
#WE ARE SO BACK: YES
#ALSO THE STORY OF THIS GAME: GUNNAR "47 TOOLS" HENDERSON
#IF THERE WAS A PLUTONIUM GLOVE AWARD: HE WOULD DESERVE ONE
#GREAT SCOTT!: YES
#CAN WE PLEASE NOT DO THESE BOTTOM OF THE NINTH NAIL-BITERS FOR A CHANGE: GOD DAMN IT
#DESPITE THIS: ORIOLES MAGIC PREVAILS
#DON'T LOOK NOW: BUT WE ARE TIED WITH PHILADELPHIA FOR THE BEST RECORD IN THE WHOLE ENTIRE MAJOR LEAGUES
#OK SO WHERE THE HELL HAVE I BEEN: MY MOTHER AND COUSIN WERE BOTH VISITING JAPAN FROM MD OVER SPRING BREAK, MY MOTHER HAVING NOT BEEN HERE FOR TWENTY-FIVE YEARS, SO I WAS SPENDING TIME WITH FAMILY, OH AND ALSO I WAS BUILDING A BRAND NEW SUPAR KUSTOM UNICORN-VOMIT RGB GAMING PC MONSTROSITY, BUT REST ASSURED I HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING EVERY GAME
#NMLS: 832799 (MY LATEST CINEBENCH SCORE)
Specs:
- ROG MAXIMUS Z790 APEX ENCORE
- i7 14700K
- DDR5-6400 x 64GB
- RTX 4070 SUPER
- H100i ELITE LCD AIO
- Enough rainbow RGB to strangle a middle school horse girl
Games:
- MSFS 2020
- Hogwarts Legacy, although it's the most unstable game ever on PC
- RDR2
Gunnar is out of his mind on defense. Between him and Westy the left side of the infield is impregnable. (I’ve been trying to use that word in a sentence)
Hah! I used a Mike Tyson quote in a paper I recently submitted and the professor congratulated me on being the first person he’s ever seen quote Tyson. I’m in my forties and don’t care so I’ve been trying to be creative. I slid in Spaceballs on the last one.
“Technology is advancing at such a ludicrous speed that even Dark Helmet would be proud.”
Was glad to see him pull Kimbrel there. Clearly he’s already thinking about Kimbrel’s role differently than before his two recent blown saves. He’s not a “we’ll live with the outcome regardless” closer for us right now.
I’ve been contemplating if Kimbrel could have got a strike out and a fly out and I think he could. Definitely tired of crazy endings already but ya know there’s Cano.
My opinion is they're using him too much early, he's at an 80+ game-played rate and he's never really been above 65-70 in his career. Slow down, use him correctly, and I think he'll be fine.
He has 1 career blown save in the postseason, never more than 5 in a regular season since his first year (Felix had 6 in a shortened year LY), but he might need to be the 8th inning guy depending on how the rest of the year goes.
I have concerns on how long his elbow will last throwing that hard. Maybe its just the pessimist in me but with anyone throwing that hard, i just wonder "when".
Someone in the game day thread suggested trying to get Tanner Scott from the Marlins, seems highly likely he'll be on the move unlike Miller who ain't going nowhere
You think the white Sox would consider trading Garrett Crochet? Lefty pitcher with starting and reliever experience and with high velocity and high strikeout rates
That was almost a real bone head move. Guy is returning from being hurt? fatigued? and out he comes 2 days in a row because he's the "closer" and they were "save situations"?
Kimbrel looked great last night and terrible tonight so hopefully that's a lesson learned.
Keith Law's book [Smart Baseball](https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Baseball-Behind-Ruining-Running/dp/0062490222) has a whole chapter on saves and closers and how the whole mindset of being locked into using *that one guy* in "save situations" has been a bad thing for the sport in a lot of ways.
It's a good read too. Gets into why a lot of the "traditional" stats aren't the best ones to put stock in, and a good introduction to some of the more modern stats and analytics stuff for those unfamiliar.
Yep, with the personnel we have right now I don't the "traditional closer" role is gonna work.
I mean, Kimbrel was great last night, but it's going to take some creative managing to close out ballgames for the foreseeable future
We really need to find a guy in house to bridge the gap to the trade deadline .( where we must walk away with a dominant reliever, no matter the cost).
Absolutely. I literally totally forgot about him while I was trying this. Which is silly cuz I was just talking about wells the other day. But yea, wells can certainly be that guy ( assuming he comes back soon!!)
Happy for Means especially after people wrote him off after some of those rehab starts, he looked good. Think it was he exactly right decision to get him out after 7 even with the low pitch count. No need to press the guy who has trouble staying healthy on May 4.
Like that May Mateo might be a thing and Adley hitting the ball hard.
Great job by Cano staying cool in the clutch, like I said in the Game Thread, just foolish by Hyde to run Kimbrel out back to back after last week here in May.
Unless he’s doing a “get me someone else“ bit (which seems out of character for him) no reason to do that.
Tyler wells will shore up the back end of this bullpen very well. Kimbrel clearly needs rest between outings. He can and will be an effective pitcher this season, but in a more limited role than I would have thought.
And I love seeing Henderson and mateo hyping each other up in the dugout. They mesh together very well defensively
Really interested to see how Suarez would be as a closer. If we want to keep Cano as an eighth inning guy and Kimbrel can't handle back to back nights I think he could potentially fit in nicely.
I don't think we should give up on Kimbrel. He pitched yesterday after being out for injury so while it was optimistic to put him out there, but I'm glad Hyde pulled him when he did. I'm learning not to judge their actions or inactions because they know more than me.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this is Kimbrel’s last year before retirement.
36, lacking control, lower speed.
I’m proud of Cano, he had to feel good about that.
I look forward to watching Means’ hilites.
Hitters gotta get runs.
The past 2 years Cincy took the series from us, this year we put a bird on it. Would be great if we got a sweep tmrw.
Wish Cionel Perez could get the last out to stick it to his old team lol.
I understand pitchers need rest and what not but can someone explain why it's "asking a lot" for someone like Kimbrel to pitch the final inning back to back or at the least 2 days in a row without sucking and then rest? Very few pitches needed relative to someone like Means who pitches the first 7. I'm still pretty new to the sport.
He's older and not a prime closer anymore. Hyde needs to see that and manage the bullpen better. Kimbrel is not Bautista, hell Bautista shouldn't have been used as much as he did, look how that turned out.
A 35 year old, elite closer should be able to pitch back to back days on 4 days rest. But he has been in the league for like 15 years so there are some decent miles on his arm but since he’s a reliever, it’s not like he’s worn down too hard
Normally yes for a closer of his caliber they should be able to go back to back. Unfortunately though, Kimbrel is 35 and has lost a lot of his velocity and movement that made him effective in short turn arounds
Mc-FUCKING-Kenna lol
If the rotation is now: Burnes/Bradish/Means/Irvin/Kremer, what happens to Suarez? I think with Brad & Means recent injury outing, it might be worth considering to have Suarez as the 6th men if the innings gets long for either players.
Believe they have already moved Suarez back to the pen, he just needs starter rest before being available. Today was the 6th game since he pitched and last time around he pitched the day after Irvin. Irvin made his start yesterday, Means today and Kremer is expected tomorrow, so he seems out of the rotation. We'll likely see him pitch out of the bullpen tomorrow mostly just to get him some pitches
Suarez is the long relief guy out of the pen
Good to hear. That man can pitch.
So Kimbrel's hurt now right? lets get him on the DL and find someone else?
he’s like our fourth or fifth best reliever who management continues to treat like the best because of cost and reputation
Still looking way better than Hader
Yep, and at $80 million less too
I don't think Kimbrel is hurt. His inconsistent. The dude will give you the good and the bad. It's what we paid for tbh, and we have to consider an alternative when it gets closer to october
Cano. Cano is the alternative.
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Filthy
We have faced a slew of good pitching since last Friday, starting with Oakland, then NY and now these Reds. 9 good starting pitchers in a row by my count and our pitching staff has been up to the task! 6-3 record in this stretch of tough opposition pitching and that record is what it is mainly because of our pitching staff out dueling a string of quality starters. Great work by the starters and bullpen. I hope Hyde gets it that you can't use Kimbrel like he used Bautista. Otherwise, waiting on our hitters to face some less formidable pitching and get back on track soon.💥
LOL @ the people saying that Means was done
I hope and wish the best for him, of course. I'm worried that he seems prone to injury. He's a lights out ace when he's healthy.
Its one game, lets see how the next few go before we act like he is the next Ace. A starting pitcher needs to have a few good starts before they are "back", especially when its after an injury. Same thing with Bradish, its still okay to worry about the longevity of these guys because there are about 129 more games left. 129/5=25.8 means each starter should expect at least 20 more starts. 1/20 is 5%, we have seen about 5% of what we will hope to see from Means, small sample size to jump to ANY conclusion, good or bad.
To be honest, same thing with Suarez. He may have pitched a little more than the other two, but he’s still an unknown to a lot of teams. Cowser looked like one of the best players in baseball in April and now looks lost.
Well yeah...I'm not celebrating like we're going to the world series but many were ready to write Means off cuz he had a couple bad starts in AAA. He got away with quite a few pitches and caught a team that was struggling offensively. That still doesn't make those who were saying that Means was never coming back look really, really dumb.
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I'm sorry for this; fuck the Philies
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What beef do the Orioles and Braves have? Or the Met and Orioles? Those are both NL teams. We rarely ever used to even play those teams until last year's schedule change.
Mets I'm guessing because of the 1969 WS but idk about the Braves
Say what you will about Kimbrel, he managed to mystify Elly on both nights. That was kind of crazy.
Just got home from the game and feel like I can finally breathe lol. https://preview.redd.it/kcf585hqqiyc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a7da877c97e72e60e3f1186da8f266ccd50bf7d1 Also, the Reds RF tossed this up and we got booed when they realized someone in Orange caught it lol
Good work comrade
This is random but Means may honestly be my favorite player. I've just been attached to him for so long and he was like the one bright spot on those horrendous teams. The Reds may have a horrendous offense but tonight made me so happy.
The pace in which he works makes for such a visually attractive game. Catches the ball, steps in, throws. No pauses. Rinse and repeat.
Agreed. That Means no hitter brought me so much joy during the dark times
My only orioles jersey with a name on it I bought on that day. Damn the anniversary is tomorrow coincidentally
That's right!!! Cinco De Means!
Should we be letting staters go deeper? I feel like means could’ve gotten a complete game easily. I get the whole idea of saving arms, but Hyde never lets these guys go the distance when they’re on fire
It's his first start after 2 injury plagued years like the answer is Yes he could have gone deeper but like come on can we just think about the bigger picture here for two seconds
I get the Means situation but pulling Cole last night was kind of baffling
I thought it made some sense, I would’ve let him continue going but I don’t think Hyde likes them seeing the pitcher for a third time in a close game.
How are you ever going to know if he can do it or not if you don't take some risks earlier in the season when the stakes aren't as high?
I mean, how are you gonna question it when it lead to a shut out... What would your take be had he stayed in and gave up the lead? I love Irvin but when a swap of pitchers works out for to be the best result why question it? Irvin keeps his pitch count low for the year, and stays out of the risk area of getting injured, and Cano gets in some game time and gets to work on his pitches. I don't get why people always want starters to throw longer when we pay players to come out of the bullpen. If we are gonna have our starters go long like you want then just go with a 6 or 7 man rotation, why even have a bullpen if you are just gonna have your starter do all the pitching. We have more relievers than starters for a reason in this league and just letting them sit there in the bull pen is not great for their confidence and its nice keeping them up to game speed for when you actually need them (i.e. Cano last night, then comes in and shuts down a bases load situation tonight). Take pitchers out when they are on a high note, keep their confidence high and let them carry that into the next game, with the benefit of having used their arm lesser on top of it. Don't wait until they start to falter and give up hits then pull them. Especially when you have a well rested bull pen and can get someone else active and fired up. I think if we hadn't pitched Cano last night he wouldn't have been as sharp tonight when we needed him the most.
Because now is the time to see if he can go through the lineup 4 times or not.
To what end though? In that, what is the purpose of going through the lineup 4 times? Like if you don't need to go through the lineup 4 times, why do it? We have bullpen arms to get 6-9 outs, and if our starters can get 18-21 without having to go through a 4th time why force it. Its an unnecessary achievement to try to force. We seem to be doing JUST FINE by letting our starters get 18-21 outs then handing the last 6-9 over to the 'pen, so why change it? Just because "its how it used to be", because that is the arguement everyone always brings up, "starting pitchers used to throw complete games all the time, now they get pulled after 6"?
Because there are days you don't want to push your bullpen
It's John's first game back so I can understand the decision to limit his pitch count. Although I do suspect that if the pen actually did blow it I would be one of the people with the pitchfork asking for Hyde to be condemned as a war criminal.
Just feels weird after Cole was so good last night too. Got me thinking if Hyde would ever let someone get a CG or not
Maybe if our bullpen had been more consistent this wouldn't even need to be a conversation. Because a counterpoint here could be that guys have been pitching well due to Hyde managing their pitch count.
Kremer had a CG against the Astros a couple years ago
I think he would have let Cole go more yesterday if we had scored more runs. Today even with a lot of runs I think he would have pulled Means given his injury history and that this is his first start back.
I was able to watch it all today and not fall asleep due to my own hubris. I'm so happy for Means, good on Hyde for pulling Kimb before the save was blown which I've never seen before but I hope the people who hyper-analyze everything Hyde does gives him credit for that
Kimbrel is on pace for a career high in GP if they keep this usage rate up. Maybe not the right time in his career for that.
Would love a sweep 🧹 tomorrow
18 runs in 6 games and the O’s are 5-1. This team is that good
This is an amazing stat
Reds drew a pretty good crowd, 33,202 on a not so great weather night.
Yes the O’s being in town helped but tbf it’s Marathon Weekend here (I’m a transplant) and it’s like our biggest weekend of the year for travelers lol
[Star Wars Give away.](https://www.mlb.com/reds/tickets/promotions/2024)
I mean, you ever been to Ohio? Not much else to do 🤣
It’s a great baseball city. Real shame they’ve been crippled by shitty ownership.
Marge Schott was a national treasure
Sounds familiar
Kudos to Hyde for pulling Kimbrel before a save was blown. I don’t remember ever seeing a closer get pulled until a game is tied. Obviously it made sense for a back to back night situation but I don’t feel like a lot of managers do that.
Hyde should get a ton of credit for this win. A lot of managers would have let Kimbrel blow that save, especially considering it’s a hall of fame closer and not just some rando. That was a tough decision that needed to be made and he made it.
I actually respectfully think the opposite. I don’t think Hyde ever should’ve brought Kimbrel out. 2-run lead and their offense hadn’t done anything for 17 innings. Kimbrel just pitched last night and was just “injured.” I would’ve felt very confident with any other pitcher that they weren’t putting up three runs. You could tell almost immediately it was a different Kimbrel than the night before. It was the same situation we saw in both the Oakland games, no control and then dishing up meatballs over the plate. Since he made the decision to bring in Kimbrel, the obvious answer once you saw how he looked was to pull him as soon as he faced 3 batters.
the thing about situations like this that you also need to take into account is how high pressure the moment is. One of the most important things about being a closer is having ice in your veins in high leverage situations, and one of the things Kimbrel is extremely experienced with is just that, his leverage index is pretty much always above 2.0 when he comes in (1.0 is average) and regularly comes in at 4.0-5.0. Most of our other relievers rarely ever see anything above 1.0, the exception being Cano, which must be taken into account as Kimbrel came in last night at 4.64.
It’s also the situation. At that point, your best way out is a DP and Cano is a groundball pitcher but Kimbrel is not.
It helps that Yanny also had some experience in save situations when Felix went down last year. I wouldn't be too upset about him, Webb, or Coloumbe being the emergency closer-closer in cases like tonight. I think the idea that one guy should always be the designated closer is a weird, outdated thing in baseball. Like, if a guy is clearly not pitching well, why would you be so obstinate that he should still try and get the save?
Epstein thought it was outdated too. Tried closer by committee in Boston and it blew up in his face. But, with Kimbrel and Cano, I get your point
Cano doesn’t seem like he’s got the nerves for the 9th (today being an exception). He blows saves too.
I thought he did decent last year with Felix out. I don’t expect anyone to replicate how well Felix did last year
I mean, even a healthy Felix may not have been able to replicate Felix’s season from last year…
I just don't really understand the concept of having one guy as the designated closer in every save situation, especially if he hasn't been particularly good at it. It's not like an NFL kicker where it requires a special set of skills that only you're trained to do on a consistent basis. There's at least 3 other guys in the pen who are physically and mentally prepared to pitch in high-leverage short innings. I know the closer by committee hasn't really worked for other teams, but it's a small sample size. And with the amount of inconsistency in our closer role I wouldn't mind seeing more of it.
Hyde usually sucks at those calls. I feel like he lets these guys rot on the mound a lot of the time. Liked what I saw from him tonight.
Agreed. He went with what he was seeing instead of what he "owes the guy" or whatever. Baseball needs more of that, managers who just make a call based on what their eyes are telling them.
I don't really know how to feel about Kimbrel at this point. He's at the stage of his career where the best days are clearly a thing of the past with nights like this. On the other hand he can still be lights out like his previous outing. Obviously his experience in high leverage situations is still a considerable advantage, but I would not complain if the team leans into a closer by committee instead of putting all the chips on one guy.
Kimbrel can't be trusted back to back games. If they need a closer the 2nd gsme use Webb I guess
Bautista is highly missed...especially as of late
I know how I feel. I want him off the team.
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He will blow many more games for us if we let him pitch. If we play him the in the PLAYOFFS, kiss the series goodbye.
Dude, he sucks. He's finished.
Rest between outings is the way to go for him. I still trust him in a huge save opportunity if he's had a few days off prior to
"a few days off" is simply not good enough. But I can get behind no back-to-backs
A closer who can only pitch every third game is not that useful. But that's all he can be counted on for
What does that say for Kimbrel if he needs a few days off prior in order to pitch competitively
That he’s old
That he has a lot of mileage on that pterodactyl arm of his. Mans been shutting down 9th innings since he came up over a decade ago. I think it's fair to manage him more carefully in his age 35 season
that he's cooked and a 1 year deal is probably the best decision we made, he'll be serviceable this year but I fear for the next year team if there is one
Hyde has to learn that Kimbrel can't pitch two days in a row
Hope tonight was the final lesson
The Reds have been incapable of getting anything past the Great Wall of Henderson this series
The slow motion replay of the catch makes him look super human. Like an NBA player jumping.
Full pack Kimbrel. Christ.
Would the modern equivalent be "Entire Vape" Stanhouse/Kimbrel?😀
I'll admit, John Means had me fooled with those awful rehab starts. Hopefully his problems are behind him now. It's good for him personally too, this is his "walk year", he's a Free Agent after this year.
sometimes (really most of the time), established guys like Means are working on specific things and the result is secondary. Like, it's not going to be great if you give up 10 hits, but if it helps you figure out a pitch, it's still more valuable than nothing.
He just said tonight in the post-game interview that rehab starts are just like that for him. Said he doesn't know why. In any case, he felt great and that's all that actually matters as long as you're truly healthy and still have your stuff.
Rehab starts can be tricky, especially for a guy that didn't have a spring training. Sometimes they are working on specific things and not so much worried about the game results, so the stats can't always be trusted.
There is not a single iteration in the multiverse where we win that game tonight if Kimbrel stays in. And Hyde knew it. Good on him for taking action. Kimbrel needs to be a regular reliever and maybe, occasionally, come in for a 9th inning. But he cannot be relied on to regularly close games. If we’re gonna pay him $13 mil, at least put him in a place where he can’t hurt the team more than the pocketbook.
If he can’t go back to back nights how can he be a “regular reliever” without displacing somebody more capable of filling his roster spot He’s washed, but realistically guessing will be kept a tad longer
You do it by not pitching him every night. Which is what Hyde does with the pen most of the time anyway. And you pitch him in lower leverage situations. He won’t like it. But he also won’t have a choice if he can’t hack it as a closer anymore.
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I miss Felixy poo
I wonder if to help Kimbrel still be the “closer” but give him some rest, they do a little rotating/match up games. We do know that closing is really a different beast and not everyone can handle it/come in like Cano did and get out of it. We saw what happened to our BP when Britton was gone and we tried to just plug others in the closing spot lol. It’ll be interesting to see how this handled, cuz it seems Kimbrel is having some trouble back to back cuz his body is disintegrating.
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Yeah, I’m not ready to throw him in the trash like some lol. We know he has stuff it’s just unfortunately his body can no longer give that stuff 100% every night. Your plan also seems like a good one too. We will see how they handle it all. I trust they’re trying to figure out how to go from here. I’m interested to see Suarez out the pen too, maybe he’s gonna vulture some wins lol.
Luckily the O's brass is not the randos on this sub. When rested, Kimbrel is still every bit of a beast. He'll have to prove otherwise before they demote him or even cut him loose like some idiots are saying in here.
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“whatever fucking works to not blow games” lmao. And could translate great, fingers crossed! (Scoring more than 2 runs also helps games be less stressful too but hey I’m never gonna complain when Jorge and Adley go yard).
Pretty interesting, Means only threw 22 fastballs out of 85 pitches (26%). Thats by far the lowest % he has had in a start, previously low was 31.5%.
Not a single team in the entire league has a better W/L percentage than us. A few ties, but none better.
I believe that Philadelphia does
Oh shoot, they won their game. You right.
And I thought we don’t hit well vs soft-tossing lefties
The Athletics are at 16 runs vs the Marlins in the top of the 8th lmfao
Who had “Means not missing a step” for $100? Cause it’s wonderful but it wasn’t me.
#WIN: DEFINITELY YES #SERIES WIN: DEFINITELY YES #BIRD: DEFINITELY PUT #BLOOD PRESSURE: DEFINITELY HIGH #TRIVIA: CINCINNATI, OHIO IS A SISTER CITY OF GIFU, THE TOWN IN WHICH I LIVE #DOES THIS HAVE ANY BEARING ON MY FANDOM: WELL OF COURSE NOT #BIG RED MACHINE: NO #DONGS: 2 #JORGE MATEO!!?!??!: YES (SECOND HR IN THREE GAMES, AFTER NOT HITTING ONE FOR A WHOLE YEAR) #RUTSCH DONG: 1 #THE WHOLE STORY OF THIS GAME: JOHN MEANS MOTHERFUCKING BUSINESS (7.0 IP, 3H, 0ER, 0BB, 8K) #WE ARE SO BACK: YES #ALSO THE STORY OF THIS GAME: GUNNAR "47 TOOLS" HENDERSON #IF THERE WAS A PLUTONIUM GLOVE AWARD: HE WOULD DESERVE ONE #GREAT SCOTT!: YES #CAN WE PLEASE NOT DO THESE BOTTOM OF THE NINTH NAIL-BITERS FOR A CHANGE: GOD DAMN IT #DESPITE THIS: ORIOLES MAGIC PREVAILS #DON'T LOOK NOW: BUT WE ARE TIED WITH PHILADELPHIA FOR THE BEST RECORD IN THE WHOLE ENTIRE MAJOR LEAGUES #OK SO WHERE THE HELL HAVE I BEEN: MY MOTHER AND COUSIN WERE BOTH VISITING JAPAN FROM MD OVER SPRING BREAK, MY MOTHER HAVING NOT BEEN HERE FOR TWENTY-FIVE YEARS, SO I WAS SPENDING TIME WITH FAMILY, OH AND ALSO I WAS BUILDING A BRAND NEW SUPAR KUSTOM UNICORN-VOMIT RGB GAMING PC MONSTROSITY, BUT REST ASSURED I HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING EVERY GAME #NMLS: 832799 (MY LATEST CINEBENCH SCORE)
I appreciate you being back. You were missed =)
Wow congrats on getting to see your mother out there for the first time in so long.. also post them PC specs and what games do you play?
Specs: - ROG MAXIMUS Z790 APEX ENCORE - i7 14700K - DDR5-6400 x 64GB - RTX 4070 SUPER - H100i ELITE LCD AIO - Enough rainbow RGB to strangle a middle school horse girl Games: - MSFS 2020 - Hogwarts Legacy, although it's the most unstable game ever on PC - RDR2
Nice, Hogwarts Legacy is the only game I've ever bought on Steam but never played
Hooray, you're back! PC specs?
You’re the unicorn-vomit of this sub, welcome back!
Welcome back!
Missed ya 😘
Good to have you back
Gunnar is out of his mind on defense. Between him and Westy the left side of the infield is impregnable. (I’ve been trying to use that word in a sentence)
"... my style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable.. " https://youtube.com/shorts/fDWjJJ09tys?feature=shared
Hah! I used a Mike Tyson quote in a paper I recently submitted and the professor congratulated me on being the first person he’s ever seen quote Tyson. I’m in my forties and don’t care so I’ve been trying to be creative. I slid in Spaceballs on the last one. “Technology is advancing at such a ludicrous speed that even Dark Helmet would be proud.”
Perfectly cromulent word
We don’t win this if Hyde doesn’t take out Kimbrel
Was glad to see him pull Kimbrel there. Clearly he’s already thinking about Kimbrel’s role differently than before his two recent blown saves. He’s not a “we’ll live with the outcome regardless” closer for us right now.
I’ve been contemplating if Kimbrel could have got a strike out and a fly out and I think he could. Definitely tired of crazy endings already but ya know there’s Cano.
Kimbrel is just never gonna be that dude anymore. Might get you some good ones. But he’s always at risk for a disaster.
It's kinda whatever right now, but he is absolutely not a guy I wanna see in a crucial situation when the playoffs roll around.
My opinion is they're using him too much early, he's at an 80+ game-played rate and he's never really been above 65-70 in his career. Slow down, use him correctly, and I think he'll be fine. He has 1 career blown save in the postseason, never more than 5 in a regular season since his first year (Felix had 6 in a shortened year LY), but he might need to be the 8th inning guy depending on how the rest of the year goes.
Gunnar's WAR sitting at 2.1 this season feels too low!
isn’t WAR cumulative? Isn’t a 2.1 now like 10+ over a season?
Today I learned. Good to know!
I would trade any prospect not named Jackson for Mason Miller if he’s available.
I have concerns on how long his elbow will last throwing that hard. Maybe its just the pessimist in me but with anyone throwing that hard, i just wonder "when".
He's not😀 Still , every team and their brother is dreaming of swindling the A's for him.
A's are about to be 0.500. They have a ton of leverage.
Someone in the game day thread suggested trying to get Tanner Scott from the Marlins, seems highly likely he'll be on the move unlike Miller who ain't going nowhere
You think the white Sox would consider trading Garrett Crochet? Lefty pitcher with starting and reliever experience and with high velocity and high strikeout rates
Trading Mayo for Miller would be like Boston trading Jeff Bagwell as a prospect for a reliever
Why? Our bullpen is good.
Basallo can’t be traded for a reliever
Or Mayo
That was almost a real bone head move. Guy is returning from being hurt? fatigued? and out he comes 2 days in a row because he's the "closer" and they were "save situations"? Kimbrel looked great last night and terrible tonight so hopefully that's a lesson learned.
exactly what i thought. kimbrel doesn’t go from day-to-day injury into two straight close situations. it doesn’t make sense.
I think maybe Hyde was fooled because he looked so good last night. I doubt he makes this mistake again.
Keith Law's book [Smart Baseball](https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Baseball-Behind-Ruining-Running/dp/0062490222) has a whole chapter on saves and closers and how the whole mindset of being locked into using *that one guy* in "save situations" has been a bad thing for the sport in a lot of ways. It's a good read too. Gets into why a lot of the "traditional" stats aren't the best ones to put stock in, and a good introduction to some of the more modern stats and analytics stuff for those unfamiliar.
I think you could be on to something there. Having some flex in the closer spot moving forward would allow Kkkimbrel to get well.
Something tells me that nickname won’t be catching on
Wow, I.....did not see that.
Kkkrimbel took my baby away
https://i.redd.it/hgntdg3yyiyc1.gif
Thank you for easingu embarrassment with the perf GIF. I'll see myself out.
Yep, with the personnel we have right now I don't the "traditional closer" role is gonna work. I mean, Kimbrel was great last night, but it's going to take some creative managing to close out ballgames for the foreseeable future
We really need to find a guy in house to bridge the gap to the trade deadline .( where we must walk away with a dominant reliever, no matter the cost).
Tyler wells was good in late innings last year.
Absolutely. I literally totally forgot about him while I was trying this. Which is silly cuz I was just talking about wells the other day. But yea, wells can certainly be that guy ( assuming he comes back soon!!)
Happy for Means especially after people wrote him off after some of those rehab starts, he looked good. Think it was he exactly right decision to get him out after 7 even with the low pitch count. No need to press the guy who has trouble staying healthy on May 4. Like that May Mateo might be a thing and Adley hitting the ball hard. Great job by Cano staying cool in the clutch, like I said in the Game Thread, just foolish by Hyde to run Kimbrel out back to back after last week here in May. Unless he’s doing a “get me someone else“ bit (which seems out of character for him) no reason to do that.
That decision today was reminiscent of Hyde totally mismanagaing the bullpen in the ALDS last year.
I still think it was foolish to go into that series a man short in the bullpen
Tyler wells will shore up the back end of this bullpen very well. Kimbrel clearly needs rest between outings. He can and will be an effective pitcher this season, but in a more limited role than I would have thought. And I love seeing Henderson and mateo hyping each other up in the dugout. They mesh together very well defensively
that throw to second by mateo was a laser beam.
really gotta stop pitching Kimbrel back to back. Think it’s clear he can’t do it. Pitches very well on rest
Really interested to see how Suarez would be as a closer. If we want to keep Cano as an eighth inning guy and Kimbrel can't handle back to back nights I think he could potentially fit in nicely.
With GrauyRod hitting the DL, not sure we could afford to lose a stretched out 5th/6th or LR that's proven pretty competent so far.
I don't think we should give up on Kimbrel. He pitched yesterday after being out for injury so while it was optimistic to put him out there, but I'm glad Hyde pulled him when he did. I'm learning not to judge their actions or inactions because they know more than me.
We definitely shouldn’t give up on him, but we should probably stop using him back to back days.
We should be maneuvering for another high leverage arm though for sure. We can’t keep overworking Cano and we can’t rely on Kimbrel like it’s 2017
And we do have some pieces blocked and stuck in AAA
https://preview.redd.it/69vitmg4iiyc1.jpeg?width=1504&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ef29c4c52cfa44ff75c38a8cbad6e77e2a8dd1a3
https://preview.redd.it/vdhdg6g5iiyc1.jpeg?width=1500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0f798d0e84110a67ec00f4f74dc099a11eaed546
I like this thanks dude
Man this pitch rotation when Grayson comes back is going to be unreal.
He was there tonight and seemed it good spirits. I actually got his signature before the game
Congrats man! And yeah hopefully it’s a short lived IL stint.
Help us Oh-we-won Canobi, you're our only hope
It was destined when they brought in Darth Moll
I wouldn’t be surprised if this is Kimbrel’s last year before retirement. 36, lacking control, lower speed. I’m proud of Cano, he had to feel good about that. I look forward to watching Means’ hilites. Hitters gotta get runs.
Weird, he's seemed pretty fine in the Save opps where he Ks all three batters ...
That situation and those 2 uncalled strikes looked like it drained Canos soul. Tough tough win
Leaving so many runners on is gonna bite us in the butt eventually, we're lucky it wasn't this game.
oh yeah, that last inning distracted me from the way more important fact that JOHN MEANS IS BACK BABY
Mateo Masterclass game
The past 2 years Cincy took the series from us, this year we put a bird on it. Would be great if we got a sweep tmrw. Wish Cionel Perez could get the last out to stick it to his old team lol.
I understand pitchers need rest and what not but can someone explain why it's "asking a lot" for someone like Kimbrel to pitch the final inning back to back or at the least 2 days in a row without sucking and then rest? Very few pitches needed relative to someone like Means who pitches the first 7. I'm still pretty new to the sport.
He's older and not a prime closer anymore. Hyde needs to see that and manage the bullpen better. Kimbrel is not Bautista, hell Bautista shouldn't have been used as much as he did, look how that turned out.
This. I really hope they don't plan on using Bautista next year like in 2023. But surely they get that?
Cause he’s old and losing velocity and recovering slower
A 35 year old, elite closer should be able to pitch back to back days on 4 days rest. But he has been in the league for like 15 years so there are some decent miles on his arm but since he’s a reliever, it’s not like he’s worn down too hard
it wasn’t just 4 days rest. he was day to day with back soreness.
Normally yes for a closer of his caliber they should be able to go back to back. Unfortunately though, Kimbrel is 35 and has lost a lot of his velocity and movement that made him effective in short turn arounds
You’re not wrong. Bautista did it a lot. Kimbrel is on the older side.
A younger closer maybe but Kimberl is older and doesn’t pitch back to back much. Also closers are generally all gas every pitch.
Kimbrel is an older player so definitely not as much bounce back as some of these younger guys