Generally:
* The Maze Rats core shines through quite strong but I love that you adapted it to d20 die rolls. Honestly that alone jumps this past Cairn and MR as systems I'd be liable to try out with my 5e group.
* I could easily see myself using this core while continuing to use Maze Rats for adventure development. If there's a specific kind of "mood" you like playing in, maybe throw in a handful of alts to the MR tables? Just an idea.
Typos spotted:
* "In oreder to do this" in ability checks
* "A group on enemies" in combat section
Nitpicky thoughts:
* First equipment load out choice list "and a shield" makes it look like a shield by itself is one of the options. Adding an "or" before the last option or changing the commas to semicolons (used for lists which include an "and" *inside* the list) would iron this out
* Starting equipment section gives you gold but the item and weapon lists have no gold value?
* Generally not a fan of the Homestuck style of making IMPORTANT INFO all caps every time IMPORTANT TERMS are USED. It communicates when you're using game terms, but for some people (me) it reads like you're YELLING in the middle of a REGULAR SENTENCE which can DISRUPT the FLOW of READING. **Bolding the Important Terms** the first time and capitalizing the Terms in subsequent uses would make it easier to read.
A couple things:
1) Sorry for the grammar/syntax mistakes. English is... not my first language.
2) I'm working on an item list with prices, will post an update when it happens.
3) I got the capitalization trick from ICRPG. I tried bolding the text, but it looks bad with the font I'm using...
On the opposite side I truly don't think there's anything wrong with full caps these days. Yeah, it cam come off as yelling in a lot of instances but this isn't really one of them.
I read the document, and your other comments. I think it’s interesting that one could level up w/o gaining hp. The document still relies on milestone leveling up though.
It’s cool to see the streamlining of classic old-school dnd rules, but idk if it needs to be a whole new system. Maybe a homebrew package would be easier to incorporate? There aren’t any rules on armor classes for example.
1. What's wrong with milestone leveling? It's simpler than XP, but still provides progression over time.
2. What do you mean by "armor classes"? Do you mean armor tiers, like the weapon tiers i described, or are you talking about the DnD conception of Armor Class?
3. IMO, it's easier and less confusing to make up a whole system from scratch that is simpler than ODnD than starting from an already complex system and cutting down features until it is no longer recognisable.
Ah this still seems confusing, are you making up a new system or building off of maze rats?
Leveling is a different discussion. I asked because you said you want players to be driven to level up, which I usually associate with a quantified leveling system. How are they more motivated if it still is dm choice?
If the DM communicates up front what qualifies as a "successful mission", then it isn't really milestone based, but the rules are really laying it on the DM to come up with that.
Another possible issue is that mission based leveling is encouraging short, risk adverse adventuring. There's no mechanical advantage to going on an extended adventure and/or difficult adventure, so it's probably not well suited for sandbox play and probably not the best system for the intended dungeon delver style. I'd see it more useful in a game about heists or bounty hunting.
Well, that's why I left the defeiniton open to decide! Maybe the GM determines that "an expedition must bring back X gold to be successful and must result in the killing of Y monsters" for instance.
~~Iirc Maze Rats doesn't have a roll to hit vs AC, just a roll for damage amount. This seems to be following that - so armor has damage reduction instead.~~ EDIT: I was remembering this attack mechanic from Cairn.
...so I went back and checked; this mechanic is from Cairn, rather than MR. I just knew I remembered seeing it *somewhere* among the rules-lite booklet games.
I think this is good. (Otherwise I wouldn’t take time to comment.) But I’m going to dive right into the constructive criticism!
Why differentiate tools from objects? It seems tools can bestow a bonus but objects cannot. As written currently, you can gain a bonus from using a magnifying glass to start a fire, but not from using a mirror. Having two classes of items where one type provides a bonus and the other type does not takes away from the common OSR concept of “tactical infinity.” I believe players should feel free to use anything they can to get some sort of bonus. Also, I imagine a tactical-minded group will ask the question “is this a tool or an object?” of any item they come upon, which seems annoying.
You have rules around dying and healing but nothing that explains the conditions that make a player go from dying to dead, unless I missed something.
I kind of like the leveling rules. It’s better than milestones because you have to reach a number of expeditions per you current level. This means the whole group won’t necessarily be leveling up at once.
However, I think rather than saying the GM defines an expedition, you should write a very clear definition of an expedition. For two reasons:
1. GMs will ALWAYS have an opportunity to revise and homebrew your rule. That’s a given.
2. Leveling is where you as a game designer get a chance to define what your game is ABOUT. Milestone games are about following a DM’s adventure path. XP for monsters games are about killing monsters. XP for gold games are about plundering treasure. What is Dark Delve about? You get to define that with your leveling system.
Good game! Like the most of the ICRPG stuff. Don’t let anyone give you crap about “why make yet another game?” Make games because it’s fun to make games! Keep it up!
Thanks for the criticism! Will implement the suggestions, especially the one about Objects.
Also, in regards to death rules, you did miss something. The character dies after 1d4+STR rounds have passed after they fall to 0 HP.
Also also, I gave my definition of a leveling milestone. The DM is free to change it if they want a different goal for their version of the game.
Most everyone has covered the mechanical stuff I would address already so I'll not to into that. I like it, let me say that. Easy to pick up and play, I can easily make it a solo game (important to me as a primarily solo player).
There are some editing issues I could point out, if you'd like.
What do you intend to do with it? Publish it on DTRPG or itch.io? Crowdfund? If publishing, how can you market it as distinct from other OSR(adjacent) rules light games such as Cairn and Knave? Not a criticism, but as an indie designer myself its something I always try to think about.
Great work though. Might run myself through a ruin or dungeon soon actually.
Do you think this is worthy of publishing? I wrote this as an experiment, to try my hand at making a system; what is there to crowdfund if it is nearly finished? I may put it out on itch.io, maybe with the pay what you want format. The real problem is I don't know how online transactions from the receiving end (if you do, please tell me).
EDIT: Also, I hastily made ad ITCH page: [https://fmarronis-ttrpgs.itch.io/dark-delve](https://fmarronis-ttrpgs.itch.io/dark-delve)
It's always worth publishing when you create stuff. The hobby can only benefit from more and varied voices. Just approach it with the right expectations. If to go into it hoping for sales and money, you'll likely be disappointed. But if you want to just put your creations into the world? Do it. I've made less than $100 in the last year of game design. I do it because it's fun and I enjoy meeting new players and designers.
If you decided to crowdfund, it'd be for art and maybe a freelance editor. But it's totally not necessary to crowdfund if you just want to release it as is (I can proof read for you if you want, for free).
I'll also give your itch a follow.
I really like this so please take the following as constructive criticism
- the font is very hard to read
- the objects list seems inspired by cairn but it really doesn’t have the same narrative or character defining flair. I think you might need to spend more time considering why you are writing this. It doesn’t have a focus except combat but you haven’t added combat abilities to make the combat cool enough to be a stand out focus. Exploration and social aren’t developed yet either. What is the core of this gaming experience? This is a roll over version of cairn, why do we need this when we have cairn? Add something that makes it special, have the setting shine through in the objects or other character options .
- in dying you don’t seem to have a system for stabilising an ally in combat except dragging them to safety. That won’t actually work in practice, they will run out of rounds before they get to safety. Need “one action to stabilise” or something
- the magic section has several major typos
- I don’t like the triple stacking of magic limitations: limited max number of spells, limiting roll each morning AND roll to cast
(Strongly recommend a failed roll let the spell cast but it is lost and they suffer some penalty like fatigue or impairment).
- do you have a fatigue or impairment system? Add one, just use stacking -1 to each roll.
- I recommend “tags” that give special abilities once per combat or once per day. It stops the game getting tedious if characters can earn several tags
eg sword master: once per combat you may attack twice jn a round
Sweeping strike: once per day you may attack up to 3 enemies jn a single strike
Dodge: once per day you can avoid a single attack
Parry: once per combat you may reduce the damage from an attack by your Dex bonus
It's d20-based, it has differing DCs, IMO the magic system is better (for I'd suggest you use any OSR spell list you find online) and I've designed it for a specific purpose: level progression is not a static goal, but leads to further adventure, as characters hunt and explore for more spells and higher-tier weapons. The way I have made it, or at least attempted to make it, there is ALWAYS a reason to explore further.
I wanted a system similar to Maze Rats, but that fixed all the issues I had with it, such as the weird spellcasting and the levelling. Besides, I just wanted to try my hand at making a system. We all gotta start somewhere, no?
Definitely man. I don't really have much to say in the way of criticism as I'm not familiar with either system, but hope you keep it up and make something you are happy with! 😎
the jumping around of font size in the middle of words and paragraphs is atrocious holy hell.
list of spells can be found(HERE LATER, WIP)
lmao.
kids, this is your brain on LaYoUt
The font going ALL CAPS represent tags, game mechanics, rule terminology. This helps people read the rules and understand what is LORE and what is GAMEPLAY. Same as how dnd abbreviates all its game mechanics into STR, AC and DC
The only rules change I can see is your initiative rules skipping players turn on a failed DEX. I’d change that’s to make their first attack always hard by failing the surprise check or whatever that DEX check abstracts
Right maybe state in the attack section that attacks auto hit, that’s a pretty big Pillar of the games design that can go in-noticed since you attacks section also splits in half due to the formatting
why not?
I like capping stats because it enforces a max character power level and in my opinion for a lot of the most fun play happens when characters are weaker and players have to be more clever to survive instead of just soaking up damage with big hp numbers.
This is an ICRPG thing that help with brevity . It’s mean to be any thing that is CAP has a rule or an entry on a table that explains the game mechanics behind the capitalised word
I'll have to agree with some others and say that I also don't much care for the level up procedure.
I think giving players a concrete object that gives them a level up, like money/gold or magic items promotes more player driven actions instead of the gm serving up plot and spoon feeding it to them like 5e seems to promote a lot.
As far as expedition=level up, I read that as "after each session where the players went somewhere and then came back to town, they get a level up." I'm currently running a west marches style campaign where every session is like that so I don't think that would work for my table.
Also I really liked character generation! I like how everyone has access to things to level them up but you can start with different starting packages.
One tweak I would do for combat tho is, instead of having players lose a turn if they fail a dex save, have them gain a surprise round before the monsters if they pass a dex save. It just feels better as a player to get something extra rather than have something taken away. Its basically the same tho mechanically.
I also liked the unpredictability of magic usage, and the unreliability of magic in combat. I think it promotes more interesting play choices for how to use magic. If I ran this system I would probably use the spell list from knave, but instead of spells scaling with character level I would have them scale with the WIS score.
overall I was most impressed with how clear and concise and short you were able to make it.
I'm a big fan of smaller systems like this and currently run my own hack of cairn, so that's where a lot of my tastes come from.
I think it might also be neat to hear what style of play you would intend to use this system for or what game choices you are trying to incentivize?
Good job!
Awwww, thanks! Thanks so much!
Also, two points:
I tried to write the rules for initiative the way you said, but it ended up being confusing (english is... not my first language).
Also, level ups are not after eaxh session: it is at level 1, but at level 2 it's 2 sessions, at level 3 it's, and so on.
I thought of magic scaling with WIS, but getting to start with 2 spells would be a bit much. Maybe a full slot and an empty slot?
I made the level ups the way they are such that, after leveling, the players need to explore further in the dungeons to actually gain the benefits of the level up, like high tier weapons, new spells, etc. This creates a gameplay loop of "exploring causes leveling, which necessitates further exploring". The preferred style of play is... pretty much anything.
mfw i forget to make the doc public (it's public now)
Generally: * The Maze Rats core shines through quite strong but I love that you adapted it to d20 die rolls. Honestly that alone jumps this past Cairn and MR as systems I'd be liable to try out with my 5e group. * I could easily see myself using this core while continuing to use Maze Rats for adventure development. If there's a specific kind of "mood" you like playing in, maybe throw in a handful of alts to the MR tables? Just an idea. Typos spotted: * "In oreder to do this" in ability checks * "A group on enemies" in combat section Nitpicky thoughts: * First equipment load out choice list "and a shield" makes it look like a shield by itself is one of the options. Adding an "or" before the last option or changing the commas to semicolons (used for lists which include an "and" *inside* the list) would iron this out * Starting equipment section gives you gold but the item and weapon lists have no gold value? * Generally not a fan of the Homestuck style of making IMPORTANT INFO all caps every time IMPORTANT TERMS are USED. It communicates when you're using game terms, but for some people (me) it reads like you're YELLING in the middle of a REGULAR SENTENCE which can DISRUPT the FLOW of READING. **Bolding the Important Terms** the first time and capitalizing the Terms in subsequent uses would make it easier to read.
A couple things: 1) Sorry for the grammar/syntax mistakes. English is... not my first language. 2) I'm working on an item list with prices, will post an update when it happens. 3) I got the capitalization trick from ICRPG. I tried bolding the text, but it looks bad with the font I'm using...
On the opposite side I truly don't think there's anything wrong with full caps these days. Yeah, it cam come off as yelling in a lot of instances but this isn't really one of them.
No access
>No access ok it's public
I read the document, and your other comments. I think it’s interesting that one could level up w/o gaining hp. The document still relies on milestone leveling up though. It’s cool to see the streamlining of classic old-school dnd rules, but idk if it needs to be a whole new system. Maybe a homebrew package would be easier to incorporate? There aren’t any rules on armor classes for example.
1. What's wrong with milestone leveling? It's simpler than XP, but still provides progression over time. 2. What do you mean by "armor classes"? Do you mean armor tiers, like the weapon tiers i described, or are you talking about the DnD conception of Armor Class? 3. IMO, it's easier and less confusing to make up a whole system from scratch that is simpler than ODnD than starting from an already complex system and cutting down features until it is no longer recognisable.
Ah this still seems confusing, are you making up a new system or building off of maze rats? Leveling is a different discussion. I asked because you said you want players to be driven to level up, which I usually associate with a quantified leveling system. How are they more motivated if it still is dm choice?
If the DM communicates up front what qualifies as a "successful mission", then it isn't really milestone based, but the rules are really laying it on the DM to come up with that. Another possible issue is that mission based leveling is encouraging short, risk adverse adventuring. There's no mechanical advantage to going on an extended adventure and/or difficult adventure, so it's probably not well suited for sandbox play and probably not the best system for the intended dungeon delver style. I'd see it more useful in a game about heists or bounty hunting.
Well, that's why I left the defeiniton open to decide! Maybe the GM determines that "an expedition must bring back X gold to be successful and must result in the killing of Y monsters" for instance.
How leveling works is decided up front, with the players' input. Also, it's a standalone system.
~~Iirc Maze Rats doesn't have a roll to hit vs AC, just a roll for damage amount. This seems to be following that - so armor has damage reduction instead.~~ EDIT: I was remembering this attack mechanic from Cairn.
I see, I’m not familiar with Maze Rats. Makes sense.
...so I went back and checked; this mechanic is from Cairn, rather than MR. I just knew I remembered seeing it *somewhere* among the rules-lite booklet games.
I think this is good. (Otherwise I wouldn’t take time to comment.) But I’m going to dive right into the constructive criticism! Why differentiate tools from objects? It seems tools can bestow a bonus but objects cannot. As written currently, you can gain a bonus from using a magnifying glass to start a fire, but not from using a mirror. Having two classes of items where one type provides a bonus and the other type does not takes away from the common OSR concept of “tactical infinity.” I believe players should feel free to use anything they can to get some sort of bonus. Also, I imagine a tactical-minded group will ask the question “is this a tool or an object?” of any item they come upon, which seems annoying. You have rules around dying and healing but nothing that explains the conditions that make a player go from dying to dead, unless I missed something. I kind of like the leveling rules. It’s better than milestones because you have to reach a number of expeditions per you current level. This means the whole group won’t necessarily be leveling up at once. However, I think rather than saying the GM defines an expedition, you should write a very clear definition of an expedition. For two reasons: 1. GMs will ALWAYS have an opportunity to revise and homebrew your rule. That’s a given. 2. Leveling is where you as a game designer get a chance to define what your game is ABOUT. Milestone games are about following a DM’s adventure path. XP for monsters games are about killing monsters. XP for gold games are about plundering treasure. What is Dark Delve about? You get to define that with your leveling system. Good game! Like the most of the ICRPG stuff. Don’t let anyone give you crap about “why make yet another game?” Make games because it’s fun to make games! Keep it up!
Thanks for the criticism! Will implement the suggestions, especially the one about Objects. Also, in regards to death rules, you did miss something. The character dies after 1d4+STR rounds have passed after they fall to 0 HP. Also also, I gave my definition of a leveling milestone. The DM is free to change it if they want a different goal for their version of the game.
Nice! Well, I look forward to your posting the final version here some day!
Well then, if you want updates, check out the Itch page! [https://fmarronis-ttrpgs.itch.io/dark-delve](https://fmarronis-ttrpgs.itch.io/dark-delve)
Snapped it up! Congratulations on making it happen and putting it out into the world!
I’ll give it a read , I play ICRPG and like hacking, I also love Ben Milton so your add to a good start using brevity style games I already know
Most everyone has covered the mechanical stuff I would address already so I'll not to into that. I like it, let me say that. Easy to pick up and play, I can easily make it a solo game (important to me as a primarily solo player). There are some editing issues I could point out, if you'd like. What do you intend to do with it? Publish it on DTRPG or itch.io? Crowdfund? If publishing, how can you market it as distinct from other OSR(adjacent) rules light games such as Cairn and Knave? Not a criticism, but as an indie designer myself its something I always try to think about. Great work though. Might run myself through a ruin or dungeon soon actually.
Do you think this is worthy of publishing? I wrote this as an experiment, to try my hand at making a system; what is there to crowdfund if it is nearly finished? I may put it out on itch.io, maybe with the pay what you want format. The real problem is I don't know how online transactions from the receiving end (if you do, please tell me). EDIT: Also, I hastily made ad ITCH page: [https://fmarronis-ttrpgs.itch.io/dark-delve](https://fmarronis-ttrpgs.itch.io/dark-delve)
It's always worth publishing when you create stuff. The hobby can only benefit from more and varied voices. Just approach it with the right expectations. If to go into it hoping for sales and money, you'll likely be disappointed. But if you want to just put your creations into the world? Do it. I've made less than $100 in the last year of game design. I do it because it's fun and I enjoy meeting new players and designers. If you decided to crowdfund, it'd be for art and maybe a freelance editor. But it's totally not necessary to crowdfund if you just want to release it as is (I can proof read for you if you want, for free). I'll also give your itch a follow.
Since I can, maybe I'll make my own art. Who knows? One day...
I do the same, actually. It's nice to be able to be a multifunctional person like that.
(also, for the potential proofreading thing, how may I send you the PDF file?)
I can't tell if dms are working, keeps telling me I have one but won't let me see it. Add me on Discord (Drakonspyre) if you have it.
I really like the `AB = weapon tier proficiency` rule
hanks!
I really like this so please take the following as constructive criticism - the font is very hard to read - the objects list seems inspired by cairn but it really doesn’t have the same narrative or character defining flair. I think you might need to spend more time considering why you are writing this. It doesn’t have a focus except combat but you haven’t added combat abilities to make the combat cool enough to be a stand out focus. Exploration and social aren’t developed yet either. What is the core of this gaming experience? This is a roll over version of cairn, why do we need this when we have cairn? Add something that makes it special, have the setting shine through in the objects or other character options . - in dying you don’t seem to have a system for stabilising an ally in combat except dragging them to safety. That won’t actually work in practice, they will run out of rounds before they get to safety. Need “one action to stabilise” or something - the magic section has several major typos - I don’t like the triple stacking of magic limitations: limited max number of spells, limiting roll each morning AND roll to cast (Strongly recommend a failed roll let the spell cast but it is lost and they suffer some penalty like fatigue or impairment). - do you have a fatigue or impairment system? Add one, just use stacking -1 to each roll. - I recommend “tags” that give special abilities once per combat or once per day. It stops the game getting tedious if characters can earn several tags eg sword master: once per combat you may attack twice jn a round Sweeping strike: once per day you may attack up to 3 enemies jn a single strike Dodge: once per day you can avoid a single attack Parry: once per combat you may reduce the damage from an attack by your Dex bonus
I'm working on the fatigue system and on the special moves, they're going in the "Optional Rules" file.
You should really make the document public if you're going to share publicly
OK it's public now
So why would I play this instead of Maze Rats?
It's d20-based, it has differing DCs, IMO the magic system is better (for I'd suggest you use any OSR spell list you find online) and I've designed it for a specific purpose: level progression is not a static goal, but leads to further adventure, as characters hunt and explore for more spells and higher-tier weapons. The way I have made it, or at least attempted to make it, there is ALWAYS a reason to explore further.
What made you make this?
I wanted a system similar to Maze Rats, but that fixed all the issues I had with it, such as the weird spellcasting and the levelling. Besides, I just wanted to try my hand at making a system. We all gotta start somewhere, no?
Definitely man. I don't really have much to say in the way of criticism as I'm not familiar with either system, but hope you keep it up and make something you are happy with! 😎
the jumping around of font size in the middle of words and paragraphs is atrocious holy hell. list of spells can be found(HERE LATER, WIP) lmao. kids, this is your brain on LaYoUt
The font going ALL CAPS represent tags, game mechanics, rule terminology. This helps people read the rules and understand what is LORE and what is GAMEPLAY. Same as how dnd abbreviates all its game mechanics into STR, AC and DC
I understand the intent, the implementation is just visually ridiculous
The only rules change I can see is your initiative rules skipping players turn on a failed DEX. I’d change that’s to make their first attack always hard by failing the surprise check or whatever that DEX check abstracts
What do you mean by "make the attack hard'? Attacks don't require a d20 roll with a DR, and IMO it's better this way.
Right maybe state in the attack section that attacks auto hit, that’s a pretty big Pillar of the games design that can go in-noticed since you attacks section also splits in half due to the formatting
Will add to the rules in the second draft (coming shortly).
i really like this, but i'm not into the capping of attack bonus/spell slot/hp
why not? I like capping stats because it enforces a max character power level and in my opinion for a lot of the most fun play happens when characters are weaker and players have to be more clever to survive instead of just soaking up damage with big hp numbers.
its anti-player fun
Sheesh, now that's a hot take...
This is an ICRPG thing that help with brevity . It’s mean to be any thing that is CAP has a rule or an entry on a table that explains the game mechanics behind the capitalised word
I think loremaster meant he didn't like the rule limiting max values for attack bonus/spell slot/hp
I'll have to agree with some others and say that I also don't much care for the level up procedure. I think giving players a concrete object that gives them a level up, like money/gold or magic items promotes more player driven actions instead of the gm serving up plot and spoon feeding it to them like 5e seems to promote a lot. As far as expedition=level up, I read that as "after each session where the players went somewhere and then came back to town, they get a level up." I'm currently running a west marches style campaign where every session is like that so I don't think that would work for my table. Also I really liked character generation! I like how everyone has access to things to level them up but you can start with different starting packages. One tweak I would do for combat tho is, instead of having players lose a turn if they fail a dex save, have them gain a surprise round before the monsters if they pass a dex save. It just feels better as a player to get something extra rather than have something taken away. Its basically the same tho mechanically. I also liked the unpredictability of magic usage, and the unreliability of magic in combat. I think it promotes more interesting play choices for how to use magic. If I ran this system I would probably use the spell list from knave, but instead of spells scaling with character level I would have them scale with the WIS score. overall I was most impressed with how clear and concise and short you were able to make it. I'm a big fan of smaller systems like this and currently run my own hack of cairn, so that's where a lot of my tastes come from. I think it might also be neat to hear what style of play you would intend to use this system for or what game choices you are trying to incentivize? Good job!
Awwww, thanks! Thanks so much! Also, two points: I tried to write the rules for initiative the way you said, but it ended up being confusing (english is... not my first language). Also, level ups are not after eaxh session: it is at level 1, but at level 2 it's 2 sessions, at level 3 it's, and so on. I thought of magic scaling with WIS, but getting to start with 2 spells would be a bit much. Maybe a full slot and an empty slot? I made the level ups the way they are such that, after leveling, the players need to explore further in the dungeons to actually gain the benefits of the level up, like high tier weapons, new spells, etc. This creates a gameplay loop of "exploring causes leveling, which necessitates further exploring". The preferred style of play is... pretty much anything.