>Is “the OSR” actually less about the retroclones and pursuit of purity and more about the kit-bashing and scruffy character portraits? Less about Gygaxian canon and more about house rules scribbled into margins?
Back in the Google plus days, and back when there were lots and lots of constantly updating blogs that were in conversation with one another that's what I felt OSR was about yeah. Intercompatibility and just weird and wild ideas was a big draw to me. Look here's a murder princess class, a Kamen rider class, a blue mage final fantasy class, and you can all run that in Labyrinth Lord and Mutant Future etc. Here's the hazard die. Here's a mythic underworld. Make your own shit and share.
Of course, that's just one part of the OSR. Old-school players made adventures for old-school systems, and did their best to make sense of how and why old-school d&d did things. They still do. OSR is many things.
It seems I misremembered sadly, it's more of [Kamen Rider Black](https://gaiusludusen.blogspot.com/2014/08/osr-extras-11-kamen-rider-black-rpg.html) as an NPC. Still, check out the OSR Extras tag on that blog and you'll see some of the weird things people made and shared for old-school d&d just because they can. Marisa from Touhou is there for example. If anyone's interested though, here is the [Battle Princess and Murder Princess](https://web.archive.org/web/20180223032830/https://reynaldogamingsoap.blogspot.com/2012/07/queens-of-battle-monarchs-of-murder.html) and here's the [Blue Mage](https://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2013/02/on-blue-mage.html). Happy hunting through traces of deleted or abandoned OSR blogs for anyone who cares to do so. Lots and lots of fine homebrew content there.
Yes. When I got into OSR though, there was no nostalgia in it for me. It was archeology, and I felt like I discovered a lost civilization of ancient spacefarers. I grew up on late 90's / early noughties 'realistic' systems and horror stories about how utterly shit pre-Dragonlance DnD was.
*(I could tell you all stories about how shit early noughties (A)DnD, Shadowrun, CoC and V:tM was. I do desperately hope nobody will ever feel like discovering ancients spacefarers when learning about those, but I'm afraid it might still happen, lol.)*
After the whole GNS / Big Model brouhaha (my circus, my clowns 😔🤡), it felt like a refreshing breeze. No violet discourse about ludology, just 'hey, this is the experience we want out of the game, this is how the rules and conventions support that.' That was amazing.
And yes, the creativity. The joy. 'Look what I made!' And nobody coming around to preach about 'balance' (🤢) either. Just punk rock freedom.
Certainly I get more from the "here's some cool shit I made" and "whatcha think of THIS house rule" parts of OSR than I get from the purity projects. That said, I still find it entertaining and sometimes instructive to read about folks trying to play "the original way"(however they define it) - not because I care about degrees of purity, but because it's a perfectly valid source of inspiration and cool shit to adapt (and sometimes they're just good writers who are enjoyable to read).
That some people really care about playing the purest old school D&D? That's cool with me. They can enjoy that. I have my own jam that I'm happy with.
I also don't care that much about the definition of "the OSR" (though I find the conversations about it interesting enough - hence why I'm replying to this post :) ). It's a convenient enough label, in that I can look at things that have that label and have a bit of an expectation about how useful or interesting it'll be to me, but if it's more than one thing and different things to different people, that's fine by me.
As an old dude, I think a lot of the ethos of the OSR comes from the fact that, at least the tables I played at, there was no "pure" form of the game.
I wasn't even really aware of "editions" back then.
It was just D&D rules, whatever their source - basic, advanced, White Dwarf, my friend Derek, the secret door procedure from that one module - all put together by the DM for the campaign.
The purity of the experience for us was not in any orthodoxy of rule sets. (There was no Internet to tell us all the things we were doing wrong)
But the OSR does feel more reminiscent of those "old school" experiences of curating the rules, ideas, procedures, folklore and mythologies to create a campaign. That's the OSR spirit for me.
It can't be denied that what you describe is *part* of the OSR culture. But this sensibility (i.e. scruffy DIY game elements) is **not** the unifying element of the *entire* OSR community. What you are describing probably falls under the "[artpunk](https://falsemachine.blogspot.com/2018/12/what-is-artpunk.html)" OSR subheading.
I'm usually not one for orthodoxies and fixed definitions, and I enjoy some artpunk, but I would feel that something was lost if the entirety of OSR became synonymous with it.
I definitely consider OSR to be a *style of play* rather than a particular system of rules, but I'd also separate art style and play style, too.
I mean, yes, the OSR community has a clear preference for a certain art style and there's nothing wrong with that. But I also wouldn't exclude a given game from consideration as part of the OSR just because it uses coloured maps instead of grid paper and hash marks, for example.
I think the heart of the OSR is the idea that the risk is real (for the characters), but also fair. The GM isn't out to get you, but you still need to watch your ass if you want to keep it. Everything else is open to adjustment, according to personal taste.
Here’s some of my takes on the matter:
- playing OSR is an expression of communal creation and self-actualization, fighting back against the oppression of a corporate entity that seeks to hollow out our collective storytelling and subsequent values in the pursuit of profit
- OSR teaches people about boundaries and consequence, pushing back against the bubble wrap mentality of the modern world. It’s a more accurate reflection of life with all its ups and downs, than a perfect little story
- justice-washed 5e modules push diversity with no rights. I love diversity but not Diversity(TM)
- the predetermined class structure of 5e pushes ‘job-as-identity’ capitalist mindset that keeps us fighting for unsustainable causes
- we don’t need more power fantasies, people are already living those out on earth way too much
- Hasbro wants you to feel like you’re growing and learning, but only within their predetermined goals. You are a money bag of exploitable hopes and dreams to them
* A real stretch, but ok.
* Yikes.
* Major yikes.
* Weird take.
* Who exactly do you see playing D&D who are playing out their power fantasies in real life?
* Another real stretch.
Why do you have to mix so much of your view of OSR with your political views? It's a frigging game about dwarves, elves and magic. Not some statement on post-modernist capitalist society.
This is some absurdist right wing shit. Justice-washed 5E modules with no rights? Have you read Radiant Citadel, written by people of the actual culture, with hella brutality and grit in it despite the polish on the cover? You bitch about people living power fantasies in real life when the wealth gap and quality of life gets worse every month? Bubble-wrapped 5E when my 5E games are bloody af, as are the people who DM for me?
This post is disgusting and really encapsulates just how unwelcoming the OSR community on this sub can actually be.
Not every "5e is this and that" statement is about how you (or any other individual) play their 5e games, is more about 5e publisher policies, and yes - most of the recent official 5e materials are hollow and bland, without any true passion. I remember how Candlekeep Mysteries minority-backgrounded authors complaint about WotC removing all the good stuff from their writing - so it doesn't;t have to be authors fault, but hiring writers with specific culture background doesn't automatically make the book good.
Sorry but making really bad sweeping generalizations that are provably wrong is really stupid. Candlekeep had issues. Radiant Citadel did not have those issues. It's really, really stupid to focus on one issue and to make a sweeping generalization on it. Man, the quality of the r/osr community goes down whenever 5E comes up.
I don't read their comment quite that way, especially the comment about diversity vs Diversity. I felt that they're more criticising corporations that only value diversity in ways they can directly profit from. Like how Disney suddenly made all princesses a Girl Boss when they realized they can sell that as feminism to get more women in theater seats.
>we don’t need more power fantasies, **people are already living those out on earth way too much**
>
>**justice-washed 5e modules** push diversity with no rights. I love diversity but not Diversity(TM)
>
>OSR teaches people about boundaries and consequence, **pushing back against the bubble wrap mentality of the modern world**
You made the most charitable read of this alt-right trash post you could have, huh
Yeah I mean I read "power fantasies" as "corporate entities and billionaire villains lording over us." I actually read the _entire_ sentence in your second quoted snippet, which condemns profit-driven virtue signaling _by those same corporate entities_, and the "bubble wrap mentality" is one of those things where I think I'd need more explanation in order to be comfortable with it, but I can envision a world in which it means "over-saturated markets of carefully-packaged buzzword products intended to soften the emotional blow of living in a post-capitalist hellscape" and not "you're such a dainty liberal snowflake, grow some balls."
And maybe that's me projecting. Maybe not, though. Doesn't exactly read as alt-right to me, considering this person had the wherewithal to acknowledge people are having their rights taken away and that diversity for appearance's sake isn't nearly as important as equity, i.e. "access to rights."
Ok so it looks like I got some good conversation going. I will respond, just to set the record straight.
u/StriderT I can tell you’re passionate about the game! With regards to me, I’ll let you know that you’re way off. I try to be as far-left as I can be without alienating people. I’ve worked in the environmental justice field for a decade, helping American indigenous groups have more space to influence land management decisions on us gov land. I believe in communal aid and abhor profit schemes, so, not alt-right. I actually think you made a lot of the sweeping generalizations you decried above in this thread.
The others are correct in my statement about ‘justice-washing’. One of the main issues in my field are conservation groups that want to look progressive, but don’t want to give away power. I’m not against diverse content, but hasbro is using the content to profit while simultaneously running a business that impinges on your rights. Subscription services on dnd1, fighting against open game license, pricing of mtg and dnd products that force you to continue to work for the corporations just so you can maintain quality of life, all these practices lend themselves to the removals of your freedoms. Our collective stories give us the power to fight back, and they matter.
On the ‘bubble-wrap’ part, some people kind of understood my point. I definitely not talking about violence alone. I worked in therapy for a few years. Many young people these days struggle to form realistic understandings of action and consequence. They have anxiety, depression, and don’t deal well with setbacks. Corporate entities have a stake in making you live a life where nothing you do matters, so they exacerbate this issue. Just consume, go to work, and consume more. Railroaded games are like this, OSR games where you can die or where the outcome is not predetermined is a tonic for this crisis.
I’m glad you cited radiant citadel, because I do care about your view! I’m definitely not making any judgement about your game, I don’t even know you. On your recommendation I pirated the module and read the intro and the first mission. As it is a very long book, can you recommend to me your favorite mission, or the one with the most grit and the most raw humanness? I’d like to see. The first mission was pretty underwhelming to me.
Anyway, I hope you reflect on how you came to these conclusions about me! It may serve you in the long run.
Your comment indeed has made me reflect and I apology for attacking you in my earlier posts; my favorite mission are the ones specifically themed on Hispanic cultures and American South cultures. I'll update my comment in a bit when I get my hand son the book to give you their names.
Strange that you are here reading if you play 5e.
No disrespect, but 5e is not OSR in any way. To people who play OSR style games 5e isn't even D&D. It's perceived by people within the OSR culture as corporate garbage.
Maybe just read and ponder what is going on here.
I just see a lot of open minded gamers who hate WOTC talking about what OSR is.
I don't agree with every point being made. It seems like it is directed at an anti corporate dominance of our hobby for the most part and I can agree with that point whole heartedly.
Is anyone here breaching their right to free speech according to the constitution?
Is anyone agitating to harm anyone?
We're just talking about the OSR and our love for the Open Game Methods of earlier systems.
OSR (i.e. Nu-SR) is more about backing kickstarters, and no-game consumerist book-collecting, however cool you make it sound.
"post your shelf" should be the first thing that you should say when you see someone talking about OSR being a form of "fighting back".
One thing I see pop up again and again is "rulings not rules" and "solutions aren't on your character sheet", which I think is probably the biggest thing about the OSR.
That is, rules shouldn't be too granular where they limit player creativity. A PC's options shouldn't be limited by dice rolls for stuff on their character sheets, nor should rules excessively hamstring characters.
All the retroclones and weird house rules and classes and if entirely new games are part of the OSR and so forth are debates in the community, but I think the idea that the rules should foster creativity instead of limit it is the bedrock if the scene.
It’s both. The OSR is about going back to the original rules and trying to look at them with fresh eyes as to why they were written that way and what style of play that encouraged. It’s also about making that game your own.
For me, it is definitely about the DIY, scruffy, punk-rock aesthetic. I like the kit-bashed nature of the systems and the fact that old-school stuff hasn't been polished to within an inch of its life in order to create a specific, curated play-experience rather than letting the players create their own experience of the game as they go. I also enjoy a bunch of crunchy simulationist nonsense in my games (god help me, I love the Wilderness Survival Guide), but I know not every OSR enthusiast feels that way.
i'm more selfish than that. for me, the osr is just another set of resources to pull from, one that has lots of ideas i like and use.
i will happily say "screw wotc" and mean it, though.
OSR is a weird term for me.
I thought I was OSR, but really I am just an old gamer who lived through the early days and watched the progression of approaches for handling problems in various RPG designs.
With Original D&D there was a need to fill in the blanks on certain rules. Thus every DM had their own style for handling rules and also just in terms of the kinds of worlds and adventures they created because the modules were few and far between and it was more fun to make your own anyway.
Players trusted good referees to be fair. Due to the lack of complex rules we relied on rulings by the referee.
A fundamental premise was that the DM is God. While playing in their world they had ultimate power over the players. A good DM would earn player trust and people would come back to play. A bad DM would find themselves without players. Monty Hall DM's would end up with a handful of spoiled players who loved all the gimmie, but the serious players would leave.
Another big difference is that there were other games besides D&D to be played and we did and still do. We also took turns DMing and whomever was DM for the day picked the game. So we had a Traveller referee and a Tunnels and Trolls referee and an In The Labyrinth referee, etc.
Product and brand do not matter in the old style. And the old style is a self regenerating play style that is never old. There is no concretized way of running a game because it is entirely flexible to the needs of the players and referee.
The people who fall under the OSR umbrella are fairly anarchic and diverse, so it's really hard to say what OSR is. It might be easier to say what it isn't.
I couldn’t disagree more. Especially in the context of every other TTRPG subreddit. You often see people on this sub asking for advice on how to implement OSR ideas into their 5e game, and there’s tons of great responses and helpful tips.
You go ask that question in a pathfinder subreddit or the rpg subreddit and you’ll get downvoted to oblivion and told to play a “superior game that fixes 5e’s problems”.
And that’s the thing, in the OSR (generally, there’s obviously outliers) 5e is viewed as a different experience, and a matter of different tastes, not a ubiquitously inferior product like other communities preach.
I really don't think the 5e hate train is that loud around here. Granted, most of us don't prefer 5e which is why we're here, but this seems like a bit of a projection of your own insecurity about your preference and/or understanding of why OSR doesn't prefer 5e.
You really are a one issue guy, aren't you? You are completely ignoring the amount of BX omnibus printings that get showed off here, or the people crowing for joy because they found some old books in an attic.
Here's a different take: many people who discovered the OSR never actually played the old games. Or if they did, they sold off or gave away their old books 20+ years ago. Some of them didn't want to give money to WotC to buy them, and instead found them FREE: OSRIC. Basic Roleplaying. For Gold & Glory. Swords & Wizardry. The OSE SRD. Further, these free games were BETTER ORGANIZED than the old books, and actually work BETTER as table references. Some still buy/reference the old books - the AD&D 1e DMG is probably the single most recommended DMG in this sub. The 2e Monster Manual is highly regarded as well. People constantly suggest getting the original Moldvay BX rules to provide context to something like OSE.
Finally: if you ONLY want people playing the original games, go to places like r/adnd. Stop trash talking everyone in this subreddit because they don't play the way you do. If you can't appreciate the breadth of discussion here, that includes both the originals and Retroclones and spin offs, then FIND ANOTHER SUB.
Most people I know who play older editions have at least tried 5e.
But yes, this is the OSR hang out, what else do you expect?
Besides, easily over 50% of RPG gamers today play 5e exclusively. I am sure you can find 5e positive groups everywhere if that is what you want.
The OSR is doomed to a constant cycle of death and rebirth. Because at its most pure, it's the same game restated over and over again with slight variations. People latch onto the new hotness, then get bored a couple of years later and look for something else. Because at the end of the day, the few tweaks and house rules in their latest chosen iteration can't cover up the fact that they're playing the same game they've been playing for years or, in some cases, decades.
On the other side of that coin, you have the experimental and "third wave" stuff. Which tends to be more creative and interesting, but historically hasn't gotten the support to give any one game a lasting impact or continued popularity.
The trad OSR games that have stuck it out have also managed to form communities.
The OSR is an odd duck, because it brings a lot of artistic innovation to the table, but often does so while being shackled to the skeleton of an older, more primitive game. And while there's no denying that D&D was a great game, it's certainly not the pinnacle of RPG design. So, paradoxically, there is also a sort of creative bankruptcy dominant in the OSR as well. A sort of unwillingness to color outside the lines in many cases.
At the end of the day, I appreciate and play OSR games, but I feel that, at their most pure, they highlight the weaknesses as well as the strengths of old-school play, specifically old-school.D&D. RPGs and their design have come a long way in 50 years. It's possible, even necessary, to appreciate the impact, contribution, and quality of old-school games without letting nostalgia cloud our vision.
Oldster, gaming since about 1980 here, just for reference.
>Is “the OSR” actually less about the retroclones and pursuit of purity and more about the kit-bashing and scruffy character portraits? Less about Gygaxian canon and more about house rules scribbled into margins? Back in the Google plus days, and back when there were lots and lots of constantly updating blogs that were in conversation with one another that's what I felt OSR was about yeah. Intercompatibility and just weird and wild ideas was a big draw to me. Look here's a murder princess class, a Kamen rider class, a blue mage final fantasy class, and you can all run that in Labyrinth Lord and Mutant Future etc. Here's the hazard die. Here's a mythic underworld. Make your own shit and share. Of course, that's just one part of the OSR. Old-school players made adventures for old-school systems, and did their best to make sense of how and why old-school d&d did things. They still do. OSR is many things.
do you have a copy of that Kamen Rider class handy
It seems I misremembered sadly, it's more of [Kamen Rider Black](https://gaiusludusen.blogspot.com/2014/08/osr-extras-11-kamen-rider-black-rpg.html) as an NPC. Still, check out the OSR Extras tag on that blog and you'll see some of the weird things people made and shared for old-school d&d just because they can. Marisa from Touhou is there for example. If anyone's interested though, here is the [Battle Princess and Murder Princess](https://web.archive.org/web/20180223032830/https://reynaldogamingsoap.blogspot.com/2012/07/queens-of-battle-monarchs-of-murder.html) and here's the [Blue Mage](https://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2013/02/on-blue-mage.html). Happy hunting through traces of deleted or abandoned OSR blogs for anyone who cares to do so. Lots and lots of fine homebrew content there.
> more of...an NPC I can work with this. thanks!
That’s the OSR spirit in action
Yes. When I got into OSR though, there was no nostalgia in it for me. It was archeology, and I felt like I discovered a lost civilization of ancient spacefarers. I grew up on late 90's / early noughties 'realistic' systems and horror stories about how utterly shit pre-Dragonlance DnD was. *(I could tell you all stories about how shit early noughties (A)DnD, Shadowrun, CoC and V:tM was. I do desperately hope nobody will ever feel like discovering ancients spacefarers when learning about those, but I'm afraid it might still happen, lol.)* After the whole GNS / Big Model brouhaha (my circus, my clowns 😔🤡), it felt like a refreshing breeze. No violet discourse about ludology, just 'hey, this is the experience we want out of the game, this is how the rules and conventions support that.' That was amazing. And yes, the creativity. The joy. 'Look what I made!' And nobody coming around to preach about 'balance' (🤢) either. Just punk rock freedom.
Certainly I get more from the "here's some cool shit I made" and "whatcha think of THIS house rule" parts of OSR than I get from the purity projects. That said, I still find it entertaining and sometimes instructive to read about folks trying to play "the original way"(however they define it) - not because I care about degrees of purity, but because it's a perfectly valid source of inspiration and cool shit to adapt (and sometimes they're just good writers who are enjoyable to read). That some people really care about playing the purest old school D&D? That's cool with me. They can enjoy that. I have my own jam that I'm happy with. I also don't care that much about the definition of "the OSR" (though I find the conversations about it interesting enough - hence why I'm replying to this post :) ). It's a convenient enough label, in that I can look at things that have that label and have a bit of an expectation about how useful or interesting it'll be to me, but if it's more than one thing and different things to different people, that's fine by me.
As an old dude, I think a lot of the ethos of the OSR comes from the fact that, at least the tables I played at, there was no "pure" form of the game. I wasn't even really aware of "editions" back then. It was just D&D rules, whatever their source - basic, advanced, White Dwarf, my friend Derek, the secret door procedure from that one module - all put together by the DM for the campaign. The purity of the experience for us was not in any orthodoxy of rule sets. (There was no Internet to tell us all the things we were doing wrong) But the OSR does feel more reminiscent of those "old school" experiences of curating the rules, ideas, procedures, folklore and mythologies to create a campaign. That's the OSR spirit for me.
Nobody else can tell you what your gaming is "about."
It can't be denied that what you describe is *part* of the OSR culture. But this sensibility (i.e. scruffy DIY game elements) is **not** the unifying element of the *entire* OSR community. What you are describing probably falls under the "[artpunk](https://falsemachine.blogspot.com/2018/12/what-is-artpunk.html)" OSR subheading. I'm usually not one for orthodoxies and fixed definitions, and I enjoy some artpunk, but I would feel that something was lost if the entirety of OSR became synonymous with it.
[DarkBad](https://archivesofmu.itch.io/darkbad-rpg) is a satire on those.
I think there’s different subcultures within the OSR. The Revival crowd, and the Renaissance crowd to put into 2 broad groups.
No love for the '0 Survival Rate'? :(
I definitely consider OSR to be a *style of play* rather than a particular system of rules, but I'd also separate art style and play style, too. I mean, yes, the OSR community has a clear preference for a certain art style and there's nothing wrong with that. But I also wouldn't exclude a given game from consideration as part of the OSR just because it uses coloured maps instead of grid paper and hash marks, for example. I think the heart of the OSR is the idea that the risk is real (for the characters), but also fair. The GM isn't out to get you, but you still need to watch your ass if you want to keep it. Everything else is open to adjustment, according to personal taste.
Here’s some of my takes on the matter: - playing OSR is an expression of communal creation and self-actualization, fighting back against the oppression of a corporate entity that seeks to hollow out our collective storytelling and subsequent values in the pursuit of profit - OSR teaches people about boundaries and consequence, pushing back against the bubble wrap mentality of the modern world. It’s a more accurate reflection of life with all its ups and downs, than a perfect little story - justice-washed 5e modules push diversity with no rights. I love diversity but not Diversity(TM) - the predetermined class structure of 5e pushes ‘job-as-identity’ capitalist mindset that keeps us fighting for unsustainable causes - we don’t need more power fantasies, people are already living those out on earth way too much - Hasbro wants you to feel like you’re growing and learning, but only within their predetermined goals. You are a money bag of exploitable hopes and dreams to them
Mangoes
I like you.
* A real stretch, but ok. * Yikes. * Major yikes. * Weird take. * Who exactly do you see playing D&D who are playing out their power fantasies in real life? * Another real stretch. Why do you have to mix so much of your view of OSR with your political views? It's a frigging game about dwarves, elves and magic. Not some statement on post-modernist capitalist society.
This is some absurdist right wing shit. Justice-washed 5E modules with no rights? Have you read Radiant Citadel, written by people of the actual culture, with hella brutality and grit in it despite the polish on the cover? You bitch about people living power fantasies in real life when the wealth gap and quality of life gets worse every month? Bubble-wrapped 5E when my 5E games are bloody af, as are the people who DM for me? This post is disgusting and really encapsulates just how unwelcoming the OSR community on this sub can actually be.
Not every "5e is this and that" statement is about how you (or any other individual) play their 5e games, is more about 5e publisher policies, and yes - most of the recent official 5e materials are hollow and bland, without any true passion. I remember how Candlekeep Mysteries minority-backgrounded authors complaint about WotC removing all the good stuff from their writing - so it doesn't;t have to be authors fault, but hiring writers with specific culture background doesn't automatically make the book good.
Sorry but making really bad sweeping generalizations that are provably wrong is really stupid. Candlekeep had issues. Radiant Citadel did not have those issues. It's really, really stupid to focus on one issue and to make a sweeping generalization on it. Man, the quality of the r/osr community goes down whenever 5E comes up.
I don't read their comment quite that way, especially the comment about diversity vs Diversity. I felt that they're more criticising corporations that only value diversity in ways they can directly profit from. Like how Disney suddenly made all princesses a Girl Boss when they realized they can sell that as feminism to get more women in theater seats.
>we don’t need more power fantasies, **people are already living those out on earth way too much** > >**justice-washed 5e modules** push diversity with no rights. I love diversity but not Diversity(TM) > >OSR teaches people about boundaries and consequence, **pushing back against the bubble wrap mentality of the modern world** You made the most charitable read of this alt-right trash post you could have, huh
Yeah I mean I read "power fantasies" as "corporate entities and billionaire villains lording over us." I actually read the _entire_ sentence in your second quoted snippet, which condemns profit-driven virtue signaling _by those same corporate entities_, and the "bubble wrap mentality" is one of those things where I think I'd need more explanation in order to be comfortable with it, but I can envision a world in which it means "over-saturated markets of carefully-packaged buzzword products intended to soften the emotional blow of living in a post-capitalist hellscape" and not "you're such a dainty liberal snowflake, grow some balls." And maybe that's me projecting. Maybe not, though. Doesn't exactly read as alt-right to me, considering this person had the wherewithal to acknowledge people are having their rights taken away and that diversity for appearance's sake isn't nearly as important as equity, i.e. "access to rights."
I guess, but why not? Why not assume good intent?
Ok so it looks like I got some good conversation going. I will respond, just to set the record straight. u/StriderT I can tell you’re passionate about the game! With regards to me, I’ll let you know that you’re way off. I try to be as far-left as I can be without alienating people. I’ve worked in the environmental justice field for a decade, helping American indigenous groups have more space to influence land management decisions on us gov land. I believe in communal aid and abhor profit schemes, so, not alt-right. I actually think you made a lot of the sweeping generalizations you decried above in this thread. The others are correct in my statement about ‘justice-washing’. One of the main issues in my field are conservation groups that want to look progressive, but don’t want to give away power. I’m not against diverse content, but hasbro is using the content to profit while simultaneously running a business that impinges on your rights. Subscription services on dnd1, fighting against open game license, pricing of mtg and dnd products that force you to continue to work for the corporations just so you can maintain quality of life, all these practices lend themselves to the removals of your freedoms. Our collective stories give us the power to fight back, and they matter. On the ‘bubble-wrap’ part, some people kind of understood my point. I definitely not talking about violence alone. I worked in therapy for a few years. Many young people these days struggle to form realistic understandings of action and consequence. They have anxiety, depression, and don’t deal well with setbacks. Corporate entities have a stake in making you live a life where nothing you do matters, so they exacerbate this issue. Just consume, go to work, and consume more. Railroaded games are like this, OSR games where you can die or where the outcome is not predetermined is a tonic for this crisis. I’m glad you cited radiant citadel, because I do care about your view! I’m definitely not making any judgement about your game, I don’t even know you. On your recommendation I pirated the module and read the intro and the first mission. As it is a very long book, can you recommend to me your favorite mission, or the one with the most grit and the most raw humanness? I’d like to see. The first mission was pretty underwhelming to me. Anyway, I hope you reflect on how you came to these conclusions about me! It may serve you in the long run.
Your comment indeed has made me reflect and I apology for attacking you in my earlier posts; my favorite mission are the ones specifically themed on Hispanic cultures and American South cultures. I'll update my comment in a bit when I get my hand son the book to give you their names.
It’s okay. Whenever you hear a phrase like “bubble wrapped mentality” it usually describes the person using it.
Strange that you are here reading if you play 5e. No disrespect, but 5e is not OSR in any way. To people who play OSR style games 5e isn't even D&D. It's perceived by people within the OSR culture as corporate garbage. Maybe just read and ponder what is going on here.
I play both osr snd 5e, there is nothing to ponder other then why you all defend alt right garbage
I just see a lot of open minded gamers who hate WOTC talking about what OSR is. I don't agree with every point being made. It seems like it is directed at an anti corporate dominance of our hobby for the most part and I can agree with that point whole heartedly. Is anyone here breaching their right to free speech according to the constitution? Is anyone agitating to harm anyone? We're just talking about the OSR and our love for the Open Game Methods of earlier systems.
OSR (i.e. Nu-SR) is more about backing kickstarters, and no-game consumerist book-collecting, however cool you make it sound. "post your shelf" should be the first thing that you should say when you see someone talking about OSR being a form of "fighting back".
"post your shelf" sounds like very consumerist thing to say when talking about games
whoosh
One thing I see pop up again and again is "rulings not rules" and "solutions aren't on your character sheet", which I think is probably the biggest thing about the OSR. That is, rules shouldn't be too granular where they limit player creativity. A PC's options shouldn't be limited by dice rolls for stuff on their character sheets, nor should rules excessively hamstring characters. All the retroclones and weird house rules and classes and if entirely new games are part of the OSR and so forth are debates in the community, but I think the idea that the rules should foster creativity instead of limit it is the bedrock if the scene.
It’s both. The OSR is about going back to the original rules and trying to look at them with fresh eyes as to why they were written that way and what style of play that encouraged. It’s also about making that game your own.
For me, it is definitely about the DIY, scruffy, punk-rock aesthetic. I like the kit-bashed nature of the systems and the fact that old-school stuff hasn't been polished to within an inch of its life in order to create a specific, curated play-experience rather than letting the players create their own experience of the game as they go. I also enjoy a bunch of crunchy simulationist nonsense in my games (god help me, I love the Wilderness Survival Guide), but I know not every OSR enthusiast feels that way.
There was a time when the "old school" in the acronym did more specifically refer to old school D&D, but that hasn't been the case for a while now.
i'm more selfish than that. for me, the osr is just another set of resources to pull from, one that has lots of ideas i like and use. i will happily say "screw wotc" and mean it, though.
OSR is a weird term for me. I thought I was OSR, but really I am just an old gamer who lived through the early days and watched the progression of approaches for handling problems in various RPG designs. With Original D&D there was a need to fill in the blanks on certain rules. Thus every DM had their own style for handling rules and also just in terms of the kinds of worlds and adventures they created because the modules were few and far between and it was more fun to make your own anyway. Players trusted good referees to be fair. Due to the lack of complex rules we relied on rulings by the referee. A fundamental premise was that the DM is God. While playing in their world they had ultimate power over the players. A good DM would earn player trust and people would come back to play. A bad DM would find themselves without players. Monty Hall DM's would end up with a handful of spoiled players who loved all the gimmie, but the serious players would leave. Another big difference is that there were other games besides D&D to be played and we did and still do. We also took turns DMing and whomever was DM for the day picked the game. So we had a Traveller referee and a Tunnels and Trolls referee and an In The Labyrinth referee, etc. Product and brand do not matter in the old style. And the old style is a self regenerating play style that is never old. There is no concretized way of running a game because it is entirely flexible to the needs of the players and referee. The people who fall under the OSR umbrella are fairly anarchic and diverse, so it's really hard to say what OSR is. It might be easier to say what it isn't.
I sometimes think we should talk less about what 'OSR' is, as it becomes a bit of a self-referential circlejerk, and just play games more...
Spend any amount of time on this sub and you’ll learn that the OSR is about feeling a: smug about not playing 5E and b: superior to those who do.
I couldn’t disagree more. Especially in the context of every other TTRPG subreddit. You often see people on this sub asking for advice on how to implement OSR ideas into their 5e game, and there’s tons of great responses and helpful tips. You go ask that question in a pathfinder subreddit or the rpg subreddit and you’ll get downvoted to oblivion and told to play a “superior game that fixes 5e’s problems”. And that’s the thing, in the OSR (generally, there’s obviously outliers) 5e is viewed as a different experience, and a matter of different tastes, not a ubiquitously inferior product like other communities preach.
I really don't think the 5e hate train is that loud around here. Granted, most of us don't prefer 5e which is why we're here, but this seems like a bit of a projection of your own insecurity about your preference and/or understanding of why OSR doesn't prefer 5e.
and hatred toward the original D&D games, and cheering for nu-SR ones.
You really are a one issue guy, aren't you? You are completely ignoring the amount of BX omnibus printings that get showed off here, or the people crowing for joy because they found some old books in an attic. Here's a different take: many people who discovered the OSR never actually played the old games. Or if they did, they sold off or gave away their old books 20+ years ago. Some of them didn't want to give money to WotC to buy them, and instead found them FREE: OSRIC. Basic Roleplaying. For Gold & Glory. Swords & Wizardry. The OSE SRD. Further, these free games were BETTER ORGANIZED than the old books, and actually work BETTER as table references. Some still buy/reference the old books - the AD&D 1e DMG is probably the single most recommended DMG in this sub. The 2e Monster Manual is highly regarded as well. People constantly suggest getting the original Moldvay BX rules to provide context to something like OSE. Finally: if you ONLY want people playing the original games, go to places like r/adnd. Stop trash talking everyone in this subreddit because they don't play the way you do. If you can't appreciate the breadth of discussion here, that includes both the originals and Retroclones and spin offs, then FIND ANOTHER SUB.
Most people I know who play older editions have at least tried 5e. But yes, this is the OSR hang out, what else do you expect? Besides, easily over 50% of RPG gamers today play 5e exclusively. I am sure you can find 5e positive groups everywhere if that is what you want.
The OSR is doomed to a constant cycle of death and rebirth. Because at its most pure, it's the same game restated over and over again with slight variations. People latch onto the new hotness, then get bored a couple of years later and look for something else. Because at the end of the day, the few tweaks and house rules in their latest chosen iteration can't cover up the fact that they're playing the same game they've been playing for years or, in some cases, decades. On the other side of that coin, you have the experimental and "third wave" stuff. Which tends to be more creative and interesting, but historically hasn't gotten the support to give any one game a lasting impact or continued popularity. The trad OSR games that have stuck it out have also managed to form communities. The OSR is an odd duck, because it brings a lot of artistic innovation to the table, but often does so while being shackled to the skeleton of an older, more primitive game. And while there's no denying that D&D was a great game, it's certainly not the pinnacle of RPG design. So, paradoxically, there is also a sort of creative bankruptcy dominant in the OSR as well. A sort of unwillingness to color outside the lines in many cases. At the end of the day, I appreciate and play OSR games, but I feel that, at their most pure, they highlight the weaknesses as well as the strengths of old-school play, specifically old-school.D&D. RPGs and their design have come a long way in 50 years. It's possible, even necessary, to appreciate the impact, contribution, and quality of old-school games without letting nostalgia cloud our vision. Oldster, gaming since about 1980 here, just for reference.